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cornball
11-08-2004, 06:13 PM
By now everyone heard the huge buzz....roughly RJ for PK and Garland. RJ has a no trade clause, what are the odds he would say no to the White Sox if a deal is agreed to by the teams?

Dub25
11-08-2004, 06:17 PM
Unless he wants to play for the crap ass d-backs he should say yes. If he played for a majority of the other teams in the NL he may have won the cy young.

santo=dorf
11-08-2004, 06:28 PM
I think the reason why it was reported last season that he would only way his no trade clause to go to the Yankees is because the Yanks are pretty much the only team that is a contender each year (He didn't want Boston.) He knew if he took a trade to a team last year he would have to spend 2005 with that team.

What if management comes to him and tells him that the only reasonable offer they have recieved for him is from the Sox, but it's up to him to waive his no-trade clause other wise he'll spent the entire 2005 season with the D'Backs. Randy doesn't want to play with a bunch of young players who won't give him run support or blow his leads.

Ol' No. 2
11-08-2004, 06:30 PM
I think the reason why it was reported last season that he would only way his no trade clause to go to the Yankees is because the Yanks are pretty much the only team that is a contender each year (He didn't want Boston.) He knew if he took a trade to a team last year he would have to spend 2005 with that team.

What if management comes to him and tells him that the only reasonable offer they have recieved for him is from the Sox, but it's up to him to waive his no-trade clause other wise he'll spent the entire 2005 season with the D'Backs. Randy doesn't want to play with a bunch of young players who won't give him run support or blow his leads.I seem to recall last year that the Sox were on his acceptable list.

1917
11-08-2004, 06:31 PM
I think AZ would love it and may try to persuade him to take it, but RJ will go where he wants and I just can't see him OK'ing that deal....I don't think he wants to play for AZ but I think if he goes out, he wants to go out with a team that he feels has a legit shot to win it all, not just the division,,,Paulie is from AZ and would like to go back I'm sure and I don't think Garland will kick and scream too much, he's a west coast boy. If Boston unloads Pedro, look at them making a serious bid...I give this trade 20-1 odds

santo=dorf
11-08-2004, 06:54 PM
I seem to recall last year that the Sox were on his acceptable list.There were reports both claiming and denying that RJ would accept trades to Yankees, Red Sox, White Sox, Cubs, Cardinals, Mets or Angels.

Wealz
11-08-2004, 06:59 PM
I can't see Johnson approving a trade without first getting a contract extension from the team that trades for him.

Randar68
11-08-2004, 07:05 PM
I can't see Johnson approving a trade without first getting a contract extension from the team that trades for him.
I haven't heard anything that indicates he's looking for one. Is that just speculation or am I asleep?

He's 42, what kind of extension can he get?

spataro51
11-08-2004, 07:07 PM
i can see an extension possible for maybe another year or 2. Something like schilling got. I hope this works out. We would still have to go and get a 5th starter or does kw stay with grilli?

Wealz
11-08-2004, 07:12 PM
I haven't heard anything that indicates he's looking for one. Is that just speculation or am I asleep?

He's 42, what kind of extension can he get?
Speculation, but I don't think he'll retire after 2005. I definitely could see him using the "no-trade" as leverage to get a two-year extension.

munchman33
11-08-2004, 08:04 PM
I can't see Johnson approving a trade without first getting a contract extension from the team that trades for him.

LOL that's funny. Not only has that never been a stipulation, there isn't a GM out there who would give a 42 year old one after two consecutive injury plagued seasons.

Foulke You
11-08-2004, 08:08 PM
I also remember Randy Johnson saying he would also try to do what was best for the organization there in Arizona as he apparently has a lot of respect for ownership. How much of that was lip service remains to be seen.

Wealz
11-08-2004, 08:12 PM
LOL that's funny. Not only has that never been a stipulation, there isn't a GM out there who would give a 42 year old one after two consecutive injury plagued seasons.
Then, under that scenario, Johnson decides to stay in Arizona.

santo=dorf
11-08-2004, 08:49 PM
LOL that's funny. Not only has that never been a stipulation, there isn't a GM out there who would give a 42 year old one after two consecutive injury plagued seasons.
Which two consecutive seasons are you referring to Munchman? :?:

munchman33
11-08-2004, 09:03 PM
Which two consecutive seasons are you referring to Munchman? :?:
He missed a large portion of the season two years ago and missed his turn in the rotation a few times last year with back and knee discomfort (both related to previous injuries).

santo=dorf
11-08-2004, 10:51 PM
He missed a large portion of the season two years ago and missed his turn in the rotation a few times last year with back and knee discomfort (both related to previous injuries).
He did? :?:

He made 35 starts and was second in the MLB in IP. I did a search on him at ESPN.com and I didn't see anything about him missing a start.

Let's see you back up your case.

ChiSoxRowand
11-08-2004, 11:26 PM
At first RJ had a list of about five teams he would go to and the Sox were on it. But a week or two after that he said he would only go to the Yankees.

Whitesox029
11-08-2004, 11:47 PM
By now everyone heard the huge buzz....roughly RJ for PK and Garland. RJ has a no trade clause, what are the odds he would say no to the White Sox if a deal is agreed to by the teams?I don't think that's tthe issue in question here. I think we need to remember that, as great as the Unit is, he is over 40 years old and has been throwing 95-100 mph for about 20 years. Are you willing to sacrifice a young pitcher with potential (if only he could harness it and act like a man) and a 40-120 man for an aging flamethrower whose arm could fall off at any given moment? That doesn't sound like a smart deal to me. We're supposed to start slowly in negotiations--not offer the heart and soul of the team right off the bat.

AnkleSox
11-09-2004, 03:24 AM
Randy doesn't want to play with a bunch of young players who won't give him run support or blow his leads.
Well what makes the white sox a good candidate for him then? :D:

TheBull19
11-09-2004, 05:31 AM
Well what makes the white sox a good candidate for him then? :D:
I had to sit through the pathetic D'backs season last year, and I can tell you, they made the Sox look like the '75 Reds.

SoxFanTillDeath
11-09-2004, 10:33 AM
:KW
I take the White Sox over any team out there. We are going to aggressively put together a team that will win the World Series. I am planning to trade for RJ, than we are going to...

:reinsy
(psssst!!!)

:KW
What? [walks over to JR]

:reinsy
(whispers something to KW)

:KW
Sorry folks. A minor correction. We gonna have to dump some payroll because Omar wants 4 mil and that would put us over our budget for this year, so we're gonna have to trade away our pitching staff. Don't worry, we can rebuild through our minor leagues and will be competing for 2nd place again in no time. You can bet I'll be aggressive in going out and getting those backup catchers...

:bart

mweflen
11-09-2004, 10:57 AM
I agree with the anti-RJ trade sentiment. I mean, sheesh. We've got a 24 year old starter who just has his first over-.500 season, and who will probably develop into a steady 15 game winner-type pitcher. Then, we've got a 28-year old slugger just entering his prime who just came off a 41 HR season.

I don't care how good Randy Johnson was, or will be for the next two years. Anyone who thinks we're just one starter away from a pennant is dreaming. And anyone who thinks we can deal with the loss of Konerko's production now that Maggs is gone and Frank is a question mark is dreaming. And then what happens in 2005 or 2006? We have no "ace" again, and no 26 year old Graland and 30 year old PK able to produce for our club for the next 10 years.

It costs too much, and generates too little return. NEXT!

Deadguy
11-09-2004, 11:04 AM
And then what happens in 2005 or 2006? We have no "ace" again, and no 26 year old Graland and 30 year old PK able to produce for our club for the next 10 years.

We may not have either of these players in subsequent years regardless. Neither one is under contract for much longer.

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2004, 12:05 PM
I agree with the anti-RJ trade sentiment. I mean, sheesh. We've got a 24 year old starter who just has his first over-.500 season, and who will probably develop into a steady 15 game winner-type pitcher. Then, we've got a 28-year old slugger just entering his prime who just came off a 41 HR season.

I don't care how good Randy Johnson was, or will be for the next two years. Anyone who thinks we're just one starter away from a pennant is dreaming. And anyone who thinks we can deal with the loss of Konerko's production now that Maggs is gone and Frank is a question mark is dreaming. And then what happens in 2005 or 2006? We have no "ace" again, and no 26 year old Graland and 30 year old PK able to produce for our club for the next 10 years.

It costs too much, and generates too little return. NEXT!I really don't understand the "we're not one starter away" argument, particularly when it's used in conjunction with "we need (insert your favorite slugger here)'s production". Are we one slugger away? Or is everything just fine as it is? The Sox were 3rd in the AL in offense, and what did it get them? What, exactly, do they need if not more pitching? Maybe we can wait a few more years for Garland to develop into a 13-win pitcher.

The starting pitching in 2004 was mediocre, at best. Unless they upgrade that significantly, we're going to be looking at the Twins' (or Indians') tail lights again. If you look over the list of available FA pitchers, not one is the kind of guy to be a difference-maker. Randy Johnson is a difference-maker. If he'd pitched for the Sox last year, he would have won 20+ games and a Cy Young. That's what they need, not another middle-of-the-rotation arm. Just about every FA pitcher they might sign is going to get almost as much as Randy Johnson would cost and give you a whole lot less.

Rush20
11-09-2004, 12:05 PM
I like RJ however I'm not too excited about this deal. RJ would be a great final piece to a puzzle in building a winner. Unforunately, the SOX are about 5 pieces short. Appears to be a salary swap to me...

mweflen
11-09-2004, 12:30 PM
I really don't understand the "we're not one starter away" argument, particularly when it's used in conjunction with "we need (insert your favorite slugger here)'s production". Are we one slugger away? Or is everything just fine as it is? The Sox were 3rd in the AL in offense, and what did it get them? What, exactly, do they need if not more pitching? Maybe we can wait a few more years for Garland to develop into a 13-win pitcher.I am definitely not arguing that we're one slugger away. However, minus one high production slugger next season and plus one aging FA pitcher (20 game winner though he might be), I do not think we'll be any closer than we were.

One step forward, one step back. Result - same mediocre position. How far did we go with a 21 game winner in 2003? And how many games will Randy win in the new Cell-launching-pad with a team that struggles to break 3 runs per game?

I think the money would better be distributed by strengthening the lineup in our "gaping hole" spots (i.e. catcher, RF and 2B) and shoring up the bullpen. Our starting pitching was adequate, if not overwhelming. I would be much more comfortable with Garcia/Buerhle/Conteras/Garland/Grilli and a solid lineup than with Johnson/Garcia/Buehrle/Contreras/Grilli and no 1B, no 2B, no RF, no C.

Moses_Scurry
11-09-2004, 12:53 PM
In my opinion, Randy Johnson is going to play as long as necessary to reach the 300 win mark. He needs 54 wins right now, which averages out to 18 per season for three years or 13.5 for 4 years. If injuries don't stop him, I could easily see him pulling a Nolan Ryan and staying as long as it takes. He will go to a team that has enough offense to give him wins in games that he gives up 2 or 3 runs. The Sox fit that description, even if they don't have the best offense in the ML. In other words, he won't go to the Dodgers or other light offense teams. I have heard nothing about retirement after this year.

Flight #24
11-09-2004, 12:59 PM
I think the money would better be distributed by strengthening the lineup in our "gaping hole" spots (i.e. catcher, RF and 2B) and shoring up the bullpen. Our starting pitching was adequate, if not overwhelming. I would be much more comfortable with Garcia/Buerhle/Conteras/Garland/Grilli and a solid lineup than with Johnson/Garcia/Buehrle/Contreras/Grilli and no 1B, no 2B, no RF, no C.
Flaw in your analysis is that you assume keeping Konerko allows you to fill the other holes you cite, but trading for RJ does not. Garland+Konerko for RJ is a salary wash given his deferral. So in your scenario, the comparison is Garcia/Buehrle/Contreras/Garland/Grilli and no 2B, RF, C or Johnson/Buehrle/Contreras/Garland/Grilli and no 1B, 2B, RF, C.

I'll take the latter, especially since I think Gload & Everett will be serviceable, and since it seems a virtual certainty that they'll be signing Vizquel (thereby moving Uribe to 2B).

hold2dibber
11-09-2004, 01:12 PM
Flaw in your analysis is that you assume keeping Konerko allows you to fill the other holes you cite, but trading for RJ does not. Garland+Konerko for RJ is a salary wash given his deferral. So in your scenario, the comparison is Garcia/Buehrle/Contreras/Garland/Grilli and no 2B, RF, C or Johnson/Buehrle/Contreras/Garland/Grilli and no 1B, 2B, RF, C.
What happened to Garcia in the second scenario? Wouldn't it be:

Johnson/Buehrle/Garcia/Contreras/Grilli (or Cotts or Diaz)?

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2004, 01:22 PM
Flaw in your analysis is that you assume keeping Konerko allows you to fill the other holes you cite, but trading for RJ does not. Garland+Konerko for RJ is a salary wash given his deferral. So in your scenario, the comparison is Garcia/Buehrle/Contreras/Garland/Grilli and no 2B, RF, C or Johnson/Buehrle/Contreras/Garland/Grilli and no 1B, 2B, RF, C.

I'll take the latter, especially since I think Gload & Everett will be serviceable, and since it seems a virtual certainty that they'll be signing Vizquel (thereby moving Uribe to 2B).Actually, it's less than a salary wash. Johnson's $10M is less than Konerko+Garland by $2-3M, which is enough to get a decent bullpen arm. And in the overall analysis, I think minus one slugger and plus one stud pitcher, they're ahead overall. And that assumes no other moves. If they boost payroll a bit, they could sign a FA 1B or another starter for not that much.

And I don't see the "gaping holes" at C and 2B. If they get a whole season from Burke even at 50 pts below what he did in 2004, he'll be one of the better catchers in MLB. And I'll bet anyone here that Willie Harris will have a better 2005 than Omar Vizquel.

mweflen
11-09-2004, 01:36 PM
And I don't see the "gaping holes" at C and 2B. If they get a whole season from Burke even at 50 pts below what he did in 2004, he'll be one of the better catchers in MLB. And I'll bet anyone here that Willie Harris will have a better 2005 than Omar Vizquel.Well, this seems to be a question of gambling on known quantities vs. "potential."

It's a pretty big assumption that Burke (who didn't get as much playing time as Davis for some unknown reason, btw) would hit .250, and that Willie will ever learn how to: a)hit for average, b)draw walks, c)steal bases, d)bunt.

We know Randy can win 20 if healthy. We know Konerko is likely to hit 30+HR and drive in around 100. We know Garland is likely to win 13 or perhaps a few more.

Personally, I'd go with PK and JG over RJ and bupkus.

As far as Willie vs. Omar Vizquel, once I contained my outbursts of laughter, I'de pointout that Vizquel has proven the ability to hit .275 over his career, Play gold glove D at SS, bunt, and steal (19 in '04, just like Willie), while Willie has proven that he can... hit .300 for two months and then tailspin for the rest of the year? No contest.

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2004, 01:49 PM
Well, this seems to be a question of gambling on known quantities vs. "potential."

It's a pretty big assumption that Burke (who didn't get as much playing time as Davis for some unknown reason, btw) would hit .250, and that Willie will ever learn how to: a)hit for average, b)draw walks, c)steal bases, d)bunt.

We know Randy can win 20 if healthy. We know Konerko is likely to hit 30+HR and drive in around 100. We know Garland is likely to win 13 or perhaps a few more.

Personally, I'd go with PK and JG over RJ and bupkus.

As far as Willie vs. Omar Vizquel, once I contained my outbursts of laughter, I'de pointout that Vizquel has proven the ability to hit .275 over his career, Play gold glove D at SS, bunt, and steal (19 in '04, just like Willie), while Willie has proven that he can... hit .300 for two months and then tailspin for the rest of the year? No contest.Garland has never won 13 in his life, so how you can consider that likely, but yet you don't think Burke can do what he's already done? It's not like Burke's .333 BA was only 3 AB...he had 120.

Career averages don't mean much when you're talking about a player like Vizquel. His best days are in the rearview mirror. His defense is no better than Uribe's. Willie's OBP was only 10 pts lower than Vizquel's in 2004, and Vizquel had his best year since 2000. The chances of Vizquel reaching even that lofty .353 again seem remote. Willie is getting better and Vizquel is declining. It's not hard to project that Willie will be better than Vizquel next year.

Flight #24
11-09-2004, 01:50 PM
Personally, I'd go with PK and JG over RJ and bupkus.

If you use OlNo2's $$s, it would be PK+JG v. RJ+Millar/Tino Martinez/Vinny Castilla All of the 1Bs mentioned can put up solid #s in USCF, albiet less than Koney, and all come for less than 3mil.

maurice
11-09-2004, 04:56 PM
Harris is much closer to being a valuable major leaguer than many folks here realize. He's not there yet (which is not surprising given his mere 733 MLB ABs), but much of the criticism he receives is unwarranted. For example, Harris doesn't need to "learn how to [] draw walks." He already knows how to take a walk. Despite seeing only limited action, Harris was fourth on the team with 51 BB. He's already a serviceable 2B, compared to the league average. If he improves his AVE even marginally and attempts to steal more often, he'll be starting in the majors for years to come.

MeanFish
11-09-2004, 04:58 PM
You also have to think that Harris will be the largest beneficiary of having Raines as the new 1B coach.

Besides, who expected him to do as well as he did going into this last season? Sure he didn't break out like Rowand, but he certainly improved.

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2004, 05:17 PM
You also have to think that Harris will be the largest beneficiary of having Raines as the new 1B coach.

Besides, who expected him to do as well as he did going into this last season? Sure he didn't break out like Rowand, but he certainly improved.I see the Sox firing Santana and hiring Raines as a direct effect of Harris' lack of base stealing and an effort to find someone who will do a better job of teaching him the tricks of the trade. I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that Harris will double his SB total in 2005, along with an improved BA and OBP. Which makes me wonder what they're going to do with Omar Vizquel for the next two years.

maurice
11-09-2004, 05:19 PM
Which makes me wonder what they're going to do with Omar Vizquel for the next two years.
If Crede can't get his OBP over .300, Vizquel will be the starting SS with Harris at 2B and Uribe at 3B (at least until Fields is ready).

Flight #24
11-09-2004, 05:20 PM
I see the Sox firing Santana and hiring Raines as a direct effect of Harris' lack of base stealing and an effort to find someone who will do a better job of teaching him the tricks of the trade. I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that Harris will double his SB total in 2005, along with an improved BA and OBP. Which makes me wonder what they're going to do with Omar Vizquel for the next two years.
Play him at SS and have the option to play the best 2 of Crede/Uribe/Harris at 2B & 3B.

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2004, 05:23 PM
Play him at SS and have the option to play the best 2 of Crede/Uribe/Harris at 2B & 3B.And what if Vizquel is the 4th best of the group? They've got $8M invested in him. Who's going to play?

Flight #24
11-09-2004, 05:31 PM
And what if Vizquel is the 4th best of the group? They've got $8M invested in him. Who's going to play?
There's some risk in every signing, I think the chances that Harris improves, Crede improves, AND Uribe maintains or improves aren't all that great (even if it's 70% chance on each, that's .70*.70*.70 = 34%).

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2004, 05:45 PM
There's some risk in every signing, I think the chances that Harris improves, Crede improves, AND Uribe maintains or improves aren't all that great (even if it's 70% chance on each, that's .70*.70*.70 = 34%).Except that even using their 2004 numbers, and comparing to Vizquel's career numbers, you probably wouldn't sit down either Harris or Uribe to play Vizquel. And Vizquel isn't likely to be able to replicate his career averages. That leaves only Crede. You want to bet $8M that Crede won't improve to be better than a declining Omar Vizquel in the next two years (he'll be 39 during the second year of the contract)? Seems like a bad bet to me. On the other hand, they could probably sign Jon Lieber for that amount of money. Or a solid reliever.

mweflen
11-09-2004, 06:14 PM
Harris is a chump. I'd love to see him prove me wrong, and I'd gladly eat crow. But for now, he's a chump. Any team that relies on him as their starting 2B is on the A-Train straight to mediocrity central.

maurice
11-09-2004, 08:16 PM
Any team that relies on him as their starting 2B is on the A-Train straight to mediocrity central.
IMHO, you're overestimating the significance of the position. 2Bs with a big bat are few and far between. Most are playing out of position.

There were two 100+ win teams in MLB this year. One primarily started a 2B with a career .681 OPS (Tony Womack). The other primarily started a 2B with a career .691 OPS (Miguel Cairo). I'm not yet convinced that Harris is certain to have a significantly worse career than those two fellows.

A. Cavatica
11-09-2004, 10:04 PM
This just in...Kenny trades Paul Konerko, Jon Garland, and Brandon McCarthy for D-Backs reliever Andy Johnson...

santo=dorf
11-09-2004, 10:08 PM
He missed a large portion of the season two years ago and missed his turn in the rotation a few times last year with back and knee discomfort (both related to previous injuries).
Munchman, it has been almost 24 hours. Did you find out which starts Randy Johnson missed in 2004? Or were you just making **** up?

:sopranos

"We'll take care of him Santo."

Tragg
11-10-2004, 01:17 AM
I wouldn't give the team for Johnson, but the publically proposed trade of Konerko and Garland plus prospects is one I would make as long as the prospects aren't any of our, say, top 8 prospects