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View Full Version : Cubune mentions possible Konerko for Randy Johnson trade!!!


Jabroni
11-06-2004, 05:35 PM
This is an excerpt from Phil Rogers' "Inside Baseball" segment in the Sunday, November 7th Chicago Tribune...
This is a shaky beginning for the Jeff Moorad era in Arizona and could mean an end to Joe Garagiola Jr.'s tenure as a GM. It also does not look like the Diamondbacks are going to be able to sign Richie Sexson.

That could put the Sox in position to talk about a Paul Konerko-for-Randy Johnson deal. Jon Garland also could be included in these talks.

CubsfansareDRUNK
11-06-2004, 06:09 PM
Konerko for johnson? works for me! :bandance: :supernana: :bandance:

Jjav829
11-06-2004, 06:14 PM
Hey, Welcome Aboard! :D:

The idea of trading Konerko for RJ makes more sense than trading Lee. For a one year run, that would be a good trade. We'd still need to find a 5th starter to replace Garland, but a 1-2-3 combination of RJ, Freddy, and Buehrle is one of the tops in baseball. Unfortunately it would take us out of the Beltran sweepstakes.

BTW, since I don't see this on chicagosports.com, I'm assuming you typed that excerpt up from the paper.

SoxFan76
11-06-2004, 06:16 PM
"Jon Garland also could be included in these talks."

That's great. It's definitely an upgrade, but you still need a 5th starter.

SoxEd
11-06-2004, 06:31 PM
OK, y'all can call me a cynical old goat, but does else anyone think that this might be merely a ploy by the Trib to shift more copies to a market-segment they have (presumably) failed to fully penetrate so far (Sox fans)??

Or, does it mean they're going to start paying more attention to the Sox (unlikely, I admit, given their relationship to the other team in Chicago) to prove that there's no Cubbie-bias?

nodiggity59
11-06-2004, 06:35 PM
OK, y'all can call me a cynical old goat, but does else anyone think that this might be merely a ploy by the Trib to shift more copies to a market-segment they have (presumably) failed to fully penetrate so far (Sox fans)??

Or, does it mean they're going to start paying more attention to the Sox (unlikely, I admit, given their relationship to the other team in Chicago) to prove that there's no Cubbie-bias?
I agree. Get the news but whateer you do don't buy the Trib!!

CubsfansareDRUNK
11-06-2004, 06:44 PM
if we get the trib does that mean were supporting the cubs?

Jabroni
11-06-2004, 07:32 PM
BTW, since I don't see this on chicagosports.com, I'm assuming you typed that excerpt up from the paper.Yep. I took it straight from the second page of the Sunday Tribune's Sports section.

Blueprint1
11-06-2004, 07:35 PM
Please do not trade Garland. PLEASE

CubsfansareDRUNK
11-06-2004, 07:45 PM
Please do not trade Garland. PLEASE

:o: are you insane?

JB98
11-06-2004, 07:47 PM
I pray this trade does not happen. Johnson is 41 years old and makes $16 million a year. The risk is not worth the reward.

minastirith67
11-06-2004, 07:47 PM
OK, y'all can call me a cynical old goat, but does else anyone think that this might be merely a ploy by the Trib to shift more copies to a market-segment they have (presumably) failed to fully penetrate so far (Sox fans)??

Or, does it mean they're going to start paying more attention to the Sox (unlikely, I admit, given their relationship to the other team in Chicago) to prove that there's no Cubbie-bias?

How 'bout them Blues, beating 'pool, eh?

Good away win, that.

LAWSfan
11-06-2004, 07:49 PM
Hey, Welcome Aboard! :D:

The idea of trading Konerko for RJ makes more sense than trading Lee. For a one year run, that would be a good trade. We'd still need to find a 5th starter to replace Garland, but a 1-2-3 combination of RJ, Freddy, and Buehrle is one of the tops in baseball. Unfortunately it would take us out of the Beltran sweepstakes.

BTW, since I don't see this on chicagosports.com, I'm assuming you typed that excerpt up from the paper.
Haven't we been down this road before? 2001, we thought we needed a pitcher to get back to the playoffs. David Wells came aboard and then divided the clubhouse and left after a year.

Now we want a 40 year old Randy Johnson? Somebody with a bad knee? Somebody who is close to retirement. When will he start the slide that happens to all players?

JB98
11-06-2004, 08:03 PM
Haven't we been down this road before? 2001, we thought we needed a pitcher to get back to the playoffs. David Wells came aboard and then divided the clubhouse and left after a year.

Now we want a 40 year old Randy Johnson? Somebody with a bad knee? Somebody who is close to retirement. When will he start the slide that happens to all players?

Some Sox fans may recall we were supposed to win it all in '84 after we acquired the "great" Tom Seaver. Well, at one point in time, he was great, but not with the Sox.

Let's learn our lesson from history.

soltrain21
11-06-2004, 08:25 PM
I pray this trade does not happen. Johnson is 41 years old and makes $16 million a year. The risk is not worth the reward.



Johnson has not shown any signs of slowing down. What Konerko shows up next year? I think we pull the trigger if possible.

cbrownson13
11-06-2004, 08:26 PM
I pray this trade does not happen. Johnson is 41 years old and makes $16 million a year. The risk is not worth the reward.
How do you figure? Randy has shown no signs of slowing down at all. You never know what you are gonna get with Konerko. He could have another one of those bad years. And Garland, well, how long can we wait for him to be the stud we hoped for?

Risk: We get RJ and still don't make the playoffs. (Which will probably happen if we don't have him)

Reward: A strong push for a World Series

Jabroni
11-06-2004, 08:35 PM
Johnson has not shown any signs of slowing down. What Konerko shows up next year? I think we pull the trigger if possible.I think the only way this trade would be worth it is if the Sox also signed Vizquel to play SS, added 2 solid relievers, and added a 5th starter to replace Garland. Just adding RJ and Vizquel and losing Konerko and Garland is not going to be enough to win the division. If they are going to win with more of a small-ball squad, they will need 5 solid starters...

1.) Randy Johnson
2.) Freddy Garcia
3.) Mark Buehrle
4.) Jose Contreras
5.) ???

Soxzilla
11-06-2004, 08:51 PM
I think the only way this trade would be worth it is if the Sox also signed Vizquel to play SS, added 2 solid relievers, and added a 5th starter to replace Garland. Just adding RJ and Vizquel and losing Konerko and Garland is not going to be enough to win the division. If they are going to win with more of a small-ball squad, they will need 5 solid starters...

1.) Randy Johnson
2.) Freddy Garcia
3.) Mark Buehrle
4.) Jose Contreras
5.) ???
:KW
"Solid?? You want solid!? Well you're gonna get it son. We fully expect the midget patrol of Munoz, Diaz, Grilli and Sterling Hitchcock (Did I mention we are picking him up off FA?) will give us good depth at the 5th starter spot. Heck, maybe we'll even let Rauch come back and throw a few balls for ****s n' giggles."

Frankfan4life
11-06-2004, 08:59 PM
I pray this trade does not happen. Johnson is 41 years old and makes $16 million a year. The risk is not worth the reward.I don't like it either. Besides, with Maggs gone and an aging and ailing Frank Thomas, we will need Konerko's power. Seems like we'd be giving up too much.

CubKilla
11-06-2004, 09:09 PM
I don't like it either. Besides, with Maggs gone and an aging and ailing Frank Thomas, we will need Konerko's power. Seems like we'd be giving up too much.I'm probably one of the most negative posters on this board but there is absolutely no way, and I mean, NO WAY, you turn down the opportunity to get a pitcher the caliber of a Randy Johnson..... if for only one year. And if Konerko is the only big name the Sox have to give up to get him here I'd curse the name Kenny Williams till the day I'm lowered 6 ft. underground in a pine box if he couldn't make this trade happen.

All of this is, of course, speculation at best at this point. Personally, I'd think Arizona would be crazy to do a Konerko and 2 or 3 minor leaguers for Johnson deal. If I'm ARI, I'm asking for Konerko/Lee, Garland, and 1..... maybe 2 marginal prospects.

santo=dorf
11-06-2004, 09:10 PM
I don't like it either. Besides, with Maggs gone and an aging and ailing Frank Thomas, we will need Konerko's power. Seems like we'd be giving up too much.
Konerko only really helps out on the offense when we are at home. His stock has never been higher, trade him!

Flight #24
11-06-2004, 09:23 PM
Konerko only really helps out on the offense when we are at home. His stock has never been higher, trade him!
Subtract Konerko, add Frank - net positive (and not a small positive)
Subtract Valentin, add Vizquel - net positive (I like Jose, but the O can stand the loss of power for the added OBP & fundamentals)

Subtract Garland & Pavano, add RJ & Grilli - at worst it's even, at best it's a big advantage.

The best rotation in the division, and a decent O, with more balance and still good power with ARow-Frank-Lee-Everett. And in a big game, you have arguably the most dominant pitcher in the game.

TornLabrum
11-06-2004, 09:27 PM
I'm probably one of the most negative posters on this board but there is absolutely no way, and I mean, NO WAY, you turn down the opportunity to get a pitcher the caliber of a Randy Johnson..... if for only one year.
I remember buying into that regarding David Wells a couple of years ago after I was repeatedly assured by posters around here that his bad back was no big deal. I guess Johnson's knee is the same way....

JB98
11-06-2004, 09:51 PM
Johnson has not shown any signs of slowing down. What Konerko shows up next year? I think we pull the trigger if possible.

I couldn't disagree more. Johnson had a terrible 2003, just like Konerko did. And he's about 13 years older than Paulie. Which Johnson shows up next year?

Seriously, I don't understand why anyone thinks Konerko won't be a good run producer next season. He's been with the Sox six years and has been a solid contributor in five of the six seasons. Yet all I hear about is that one bad year he had.

JB98
11-06-2004, 10:00 PM
How do you figure? Randy has shown no signs of slowing down at all. You never know what you are gonna get with Konerko. He could have another one of those bad years. And Garland, well, how long can we wait for him to be the stud we hoped for?

Risk: We get RJ and still don't make the playoffs. (Which will probably happen if we don't have him)

Reward: A strong push for a World Series

Another post that I totally disagree with. You go out and acquire a Randy Johnson for what would likely be a one-year stint if you're one player away from winning the World Series. We are not going to win the World Series in 2005, with or without Randy Johnson. His huge salary would prevent us from shoring up the obvious holes in our bullpen and our lineup.

I just can't fathom giving up players like Konerko and Garland, who have a whole career still in front of them for a one-year quick fix. Especially knowing that one-year quick fix would never work. A starting pitcher works only once every fifth day, and we've got huge problems elsewhere on the team. Don't kid yourself into thinking we're only one starting pitcher away.

Konerko could have another one of those bad years? Well, he's only had one bad year in his six seasons with the Sox. He could have another one, or he could go .280, 40 and 120. Paulie is one of the few good players we have on this team, and I have faith in him. Apparently, others do not. Fine. I hope you guys feel confident that Lee and Rowand can carry the offense next year, because Frank can't be counted on to stay healthy anymore. Good luck winning a pennant with no Maggs and no PK. I ain't counting on Crede, Borchard, Harris, Gload and Davis/Burke to provide us with much offense. I don't care how much pitching you have. You ain't going nowhere in the American League if you have holes in your lineup like swiss cheese. We have that problem right now even with PK.

Frankfan4life
11-06-2004, 10:23 PM
I'm probably one of the most negative posters on this board but there is absolutely no way, and I mean, NO WAY, you turn down the opportunity to get a pitcher the caliber of a Randy Johnson..... if for only one year. And if Konerko is the only big name the Sox have to give up to get him here I'd curse the name Kenny Williams till the day I'm lowered 6 ft. underground in a pine box if he couldn't make this trade happen.

All of this is, of course, speculation at best at this point. Personally, I'd think Arizona would be crazy to do a Konerko and 2 or 3 minor leaguers for Johnson deal. If I'm ARI, I'm asking for Konerko/Lee, Garland, and 1..... maybe 2 marginal prospects.Konerko only really helps out on the offense when we are at home. His stock has never been higher, trade him!Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Randy on the Sox. But without Konerko, Valentin & Maggs we lose over 260 RBI and 90 homeruns. I'm not as sure as you that Rowand, Frank, Lee & Everett are going to pick up that much slack, and I still like Garland better than Grilli at this point.

santo=dorf
11-06-2004, 10:32 PM
I couldn't disagree more. Johnson had a terrible 2003, just like Konerko did. And he's about 13 years older than Paulie. Which Johnson shows up next year?

Seriously, I don't understand why anyone thinks Konerko won't be a good run producer next season. He's been with the Sox six years and has been a solid contributor in five of the six seasons. Yet all I hear about is that one bad year he had.Johnson was HURT in 2003! I suppose you don't want Frank back for next year because of his injury last year? :rolleyes:

And if you're going to talk about how well someone has performed in 5 of 6 years, take a ****ing look at RJ's stats with the D'backs. They're ungodly:
Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP ERA
1999 35 ARI (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ARI/1999.shtml) NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_1999.shtml) 17 9 35 35 12 2 0 0 271.7 207 86 75 30 70 364 9 4 1079 2.48
2000 36 ARI (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ARI/2000.shtml) NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_2000.shtml) 19 7 35 35 8 3 0 0 248.7 202 89 73 23 76 347 6 5 1001 2.64
2001 37 ARI (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ARI/2001.shtml) NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_2001.shtml) 21 6 35 34 3 2 1 0 249.7 181 74 69 19 71 372 18 8 994 2.49
2002 38 ARI (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ARI/2002.shtml) NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_2002.shtml) 24 5 35 35 8 4 0 0 260.0 197 78 67 26 71 334 13 3 1035 2.32
2003 39 ARI (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ARI/2003.shtml) NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_2003.shtml) 6 8 18 18 1 1 0 0 114.0 125 61 54 16 27 125 8 1 489 4.26
2004 40 ARI (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ARI/2004.shtml) NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_2004.shtml) 16 14 35 35 4 2 0 0 245.7 177 88 71 18 44 290 10 3 964 2.60

dcb33
11-06-2004, 10:40 PM
As cool as it would be to have RJ on the team, I don't think I would spend the money to get him becuase he's old and no one really knows when he'll run out of gas. I think we'd be better off keeping the four starters we have and going after someone like a Jon Lieber, Matt Morris, Woody Williams, or Al Leiter. Any of these guys (who would come at a more reasonable price) combined with our current four starters would be a solid rotation, and we could use the extra money you would otherwise spend to get RJ to plug up our hole in the BP and at 2nd base/RF/SS. I just think RJ comes with too much risk for the amount of money he is owed next year.

sircaffey1
11-06-2004, 11:03 PM
Some of you people are forgetting that Konerko is a FA after this season as well. So it's basically getting rid of one one-year rental for another. I believe that Garland is also a FA or at least arbitration eligible after this next season. So it's not like we are trading away a ton of our future because we don't know if Pauly and Jon will be part of our future. And I believe that management knows a little bit more about that than we do.

dcb33
11-06-2004, 11:08 PM
You make a valid point, the only problem is that if that trade became reality, we'd still be short a 5th starter and we'd lose one of our best power hitters in order to marginally improve the team. As good as RJ is, he can only play once every five games. I'd rather us keep Paulie and go after a decent 3rd or 4th starting pitcher. Randy Johnson is not going to be able to help us if it means sending Grilli/Munoz/Diaz/whoever else out there whenever its the 5th starters turn.

Some of you people are forgetting that Konerko is a FA after this season as well. So it's basically getting rid of one one-year rental for another. I believe that Garland is also a FA or at least arbitration eligible after this next season. So it's not like we are trading away a ton of our future because we don't know if Pauly and Jon will be part of our future. And I believe that management knows a little bit more about that than we do.

sircaffey1
11-06-2004, 11:13 PM
Truthfully, I can't see this being the only move management makes, if its made. They can't think that by putting RJ on this team and subtracting Konerko that they have improved the team enough to make it a playoff quality team. An RJ move would be a move made only when management knows that this is a team that can make some noise. Subtracting Konerko and Garland and adding RJ would increase payroll by 6-7 million, adding Vizquel would increase it 4 mil. I can't see management being satisfied there with the quality of the team. However, management does have the right idea if they are willing to spend enough to make this a playoff quality team because with RJ, Garcia, and Buehrle this team can make a lot of noise IF they make the playoffs.

dcb33
11-06-2004, 11:20 PM
However, management does have the right idea if they are willing to spend enough to make this a playoff quality team because with RJ, Garcia, and Buehrle this team can make a lot of noise IF they make the playoffs.
That's a pretty big IF...

Joosh
11-06-2004, 11:24 PM
:KW
"Solid?? You want solid!? Well you're gonna get it son. We fully expect the midget patrol of Munoz, Diaz, Grilli and Sterling Hitchcock (Did I mention we are picking him up off FA?) will give us good depth at the 5th starter spot. Heck, maybe we'll even let Rauch come back and throw a few balls for ****s n' giggles."
Holy Crap, dude, I just peed my Pants reading that.
:rolling:

But, in all seriousness, this is a good deal. Looking at his stats, his getting better, not slowing down. I hope Kenny Pulls the trigger, we need this.

santo=dorf
11-06-2004, 11:26 PM
An RJ move would be a move made only when management knows that this is a team that can make some noise. Subtracting Konerko and Garland and adding RJ would increase payroll by 6-7 million
I can't imagine KW making this trade without getting some money from the D'backs.

How does a rotation of
1. Johnson
2. Buehrle
3. Garcia
4. Contreras
5. Robert Person(?) or the 15th fan to enter the stadium.:tongue:

compare to
1. Buehrle
2. Garcia
3. Contreras
4. Garland
5. FA signing (don't hold your breath) or Grilli?

:hawk
"Let's just go with a 4 man rotation fiesty!"

:DJ
"Uh-Huh."

Jabroni
11-07-2004, 12:04 AM
Personally, I'd think Arizona would be crazy to do a Konerko and 2 or 3 minor leaguers for Johnson deal. If I'm ARI, I'm asking for Konerko/Lee, Garland, and 1..... maybe 2 marginal prospects.I think that would be asking too much for Randy Johnson. He is a great pitcher but he is 41 years old, making $16 million, and is only under contract for 1 year. The Diamondbacks didn't get anywhere near that much talent for Curt Schilling last year.Some of you people are forgetting that Konerko is a FA after this season as well. So it's basically getting rid of one one-year rental for another. I believe that Garland is also a FA or at least arbitration eligible after this next season. So it's not like we are trading away a ton of our future because we don't know if Pauly and Jon will be part of our future. And I believe that management knows a little bit more about that than we do.Excellent point. :thumbsup:

Ol' No. 2
11-07-2004, 12:12 AM
I don't care if Johnson's 81, there's been no sign of decline yet. Could he crater next year? Sure. Konerko could slump, too. Anything can happen. But I'd take Johnson at 80% over any FA pitcher out there. They need pitching, and Johnson gives it to them in spades.

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that $6M of Johnson's $16M is deferred, and probably for a number of years. And if the Sox are giving up both Konerko and Garland, it's pretty likely they're getting cash with the deal to pay the deferred money. So the sum is a net DECREASE of about $3M for 2005, which frees up money to do other things. Unfortunately, it also looks like they're going to **** it away on Omar Vizquel instead of using it to beef up the pen.

The question that's left is what happens in the 5th spot? Will they get another pitcher to take that spot or try to make do with what they've got? Stay tuned, Sox fans. They're a long way from being done.

soxwon
11-07-2004, 12:13 AM
Hey, Welcome Aboard! :D:

The idea of trading Konerko for RJ makes more sense than trading Lee. For a one year run, that would be a good trade. We'd still need to find a 5th starter to replace Garland, but a 1-2-3 combination of RJ, Freddy, and Buehrle is one of the tops in baseball. Unfortunately it would take us out of the Beltran sweepstakes.

BTW, since I don't see this on chicagosports.com, I'm assuming you typed that excerpt up from the paper.

Uhh what about contreras he won 13 games you know!!!
we would have 4 of the best in the AL
Jose can and will win 15 next year for us.

Ol' No. 2
11-07-2004, 12:21 AM
Uhh what about contreras he won 13 games you know!!!
we would have 4 of the best in the AL
Jose can and will win 15 next year for us.Contreras was still having a problem tipping his pitches last year. That fork ball is only really effective if he's throwing it out of the zone, and when hitters know it's coming, they just lay off and get ahead in the count. Then they just sit on the #1. That fork ball is nasty. He could win 17+ if he gets it sorted out.

Man Soo Lee
11-07-2004, 12:50 AM
I would still love for someone to explain how a trade like this helps Arizona. Because of the $6M in deferred money, Konerko ($9.25M if traded) and Garland (~$3M) will make more money in 2005 than Johnson. So the Diamondbacks are going to trade their biggest drawing card, make their pitching staff much worse, and add current salary just to get a guy who will be a free agent at the end of the year? And some of you expect Arizona to pick up some of Johnson's salary?

santo=dorf
11-07-2004, 12:53 AM
I would still love for someone to explain how a trade like this helps Arizona. Because of the $6M in deferred money, Konerko ($9.25M if traded) and Garland (~$3M) will make more money in 2005 than Johnson. So the Diamondbacks are going to trade their biggest drawing card, make their pitching staff much worse, and add current salary just to get a guy who will be a free agent at the end of the year? And some of you expect Arizona to pick up some of Johnson's salary?They're a ****ed up organization to begin with ($300 million in debt, the Wally Backman hiring/firing) and what other offers can they get for RJ? They got burned with the prospects they recieved from Boston with the Curt Schilling trade, so they might want some more established players.

Man Soo Lee
11-07-2004, 01:04 AM
They're a ****ed up organization to begin with ($300 million in debt, the Wally Backman hiring/firing) and what other offers can they get for RJ? They got burned with the prospects they recieved from Boston with the Curt Schilling trade, so they might want some more established players.
As dumb as you may think they are, they won't deal Johnson to make their team worse, more expensive, and less attractive to paying customers.

Garland and Rowand might be the start of a package that works for them, but I can't see how Garland and Konerko would be.

JB98
11-07-2004, 01:23 AM
Truthfully, I can't see this being the only move management makes, if its made. They can't think that by putting RJ on this team and subtracting Konerko that they have improved the team enough to make it a playoff quality team. An RJ move would be a move made only when management knows that this is a team that can make some noise. Subtracting Konerko and Garland and adding RJ would increase payroll by 6-7 million, adding Vizquel would increase it 4 mil. I can't see management being satisfied there with the quality of the team. However, management does have the right idea if they are willing to spend enough to make this a playoff quality team because with RJ, Garcia, and Buehrle this team can make a lot of noise IF they make the playoffs.
Trading Konerko for RJ will NOT make us a playoff team. As long as we have Politte, Adkins and Cotts as key members of our bullpen, we will not be a playoff team. We have holes at C, 2B, SS, 3B and RF. Granted, Uribe will fill one of those three infield positions nicely, but we are not going to be a playoff team with question marks at a minimum of four positions. If RJ is brought in for Konerko and Garland, then we have a hole at 1B and still one hole in the starting rotation. Ross Gload and Jason Grilli are not the answers. No matter how much deferred money RJ is getting, he's getting a ton of dough. Unless JR is going to hike the payroll much higher than we think, no way we can fix all these problems with RJ's salary on board. RJ might help us at the box office every fifth day, but this would still be no better than an 85-win team if we make this trade.

DumpJerry
11-07-2004, 01:43 AM
Ok, Konerko and Judy for The Big Unit does have potential. How about, if we can, sign Matt Clement? He's a FA this year. With Vizquel at ss (seems like a done deal), we would have a fairly solid 123 line up of Vizquel, Rowand and C. Lee to load up for Frank. If we somehow on top of the above acquisitions manage to land Betran (a distant possibility, I'm not holding my breath), then the 123 would have Beltran replacing Lee who could be 5 after Frank.


This could be exciting, but of course I will not get excited until players are actually signed with us.

dcb33
11-07-2004, 02:48 AM
I don't care if Johnson's 81, there's been no sign of decline yet. Could he crater next year? Sure. Konerko could slump, too. Anything can happen. But I'd take Johnson at 80% over any FA pitcher out there. They need pitching, and Johnson gives it to them in spades.

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that $6M of Johnson's $16M is deferred, and probably for a number of years. And if the Sox are giving up both Konerko and Garland, it's pretty likely they're getting cash with the deal to pay the deferred money. So the sum is a net DECREASE of about $3M for 2005, which frees up money to do other things. Unfortunately, it also looks like they're going to **** it away on Omar Vizquel instead of using it to beef up the pen.

The question that's left is what happens in the 5th spot? Will they get another pitcher to take that spot or try to make do with what they've got? Stay tuned, Sox fans. They're a long way from being done.Don't forget- we're the White Sox. It would be just our luck that the Sox would make a blockbuster deal to land Randy Johnson only to have him sustain a career ending injury the first month of the season or something like that.
You can crunch the numbers any way you wish, but I still don't think we come out ahead even with cash savings because if we make that trade for RJ, we'd lose a servicable starting pitcher and one of our best power hitters in Konerko (neither of which can be replaced for the $3MM you claim we will save). I doubt Randy Johnson+our ugly combination of 5th starters would win more games than a combination of say Jon Lieber or Woody Williams + Jon Garland. Trading for Johnson would at best help our team marginally, if at all because we'd create more problems than we would solve.

Ok, Konerko and Judy for The Big Unit does have potential. How about, if we can, sign Matt Clement? He's a FA this year. With Vizquel at ss (seems like a done deal), we would have a fairly solid 123 line up of Vizquel, Rowand and C. Lee to load up for Frank. If we somehow on top of the above acquisitions manage to land Betran (a distant possibility, I'm not holding my breath), then the 123 would have Beltran replacing Lee who could be 5 after Frank.
This could be exciting, but of course I will not get excited until players are actually signed with us.While we're at it why don't we just pretend we're the Yankees and that we have 200 mil to throw around...

idseer
11-07-2004, 02:54 AM
just say no to randy johnson.

you don't get rid of the 28 year old team mvp for a 41 year old ANYTHING!
and also take on an additional $5 or 6 million in the process.

this idea is so stupid ...... and so like the white sox.

santo=dorf
11-07-2004, 03:04 AM
just say no to randy johnson.

you don't get rid of the 28 year old team mvp for a 41 year old ANYTHING!
and also take on an additional $5 or 6 million in the process.

this idea is so stupid ...... and so like the white sox.
Even if that 41 year old is the CY Young winner who threw a perfect game the previous year? :?:

Of course this coming from someone who said he would take Carlos Lee over Barry Bonds. :rolleyes:

LAWSfan
11-07-2004, 04:14 AM
Even if that 41 year old is the CY Young winner who threw a perfect game the previous year? :?:

Of course this coming from someone who said he would take Carlos Lee over Barry Bonds. :rolleyes:
So if the White Sox do get RJ and he goes 9-9 and an ERA over 4, is that a good trade? What if next year is the start of his decline? He does have bad knees.

Bisco Stu
11-07-2004, 04:58 AM
Rogers was just on ESPN radio & said Konerko/Garland for Unit.

He also said we're not a player in the CB sweepstakes cause CB wants to "go to a winner."

idseer
11-07-2004, 05:12 AM
Even if that 41 year old is the CY Young winner who threw a perfect game the previous year? :?:

Of course this coming from someone who said he would take Carlos Lee over Barry Bonds. :rolleyes:
yes ... even tho.

and carlos lee will be more valuable over the next 5 years than bonds will be. get over it.

voodoochile
11-07-2004, 08:32 AM
So if the White Sox do get RJ and he goes 9-9 and an ERA over 4, is that a good trade? What if next year is the start of his decline? He does have bad knees.
That can be said of anyone. What if the Sox knew before going into 2004 that both Maggs and Frank would be lost for over half of the season?

Dare to be great or don't try at all...

Deadguy
11-07-2004, 08:39 AM
you don't get rid of the 28 year old team mvp for a 41 year old ANYTHING!
and also take on an additional $5 or 6 million in the process.

Konerko the team MVP?!?! I'm still laughing over that one.

StepsInSC
11-07-2004, 08:56 AM
Let's learn our lesson from history.
History, for Sox fans, says that we can't win no matter what. So personally I'd say screw history.

SoxEd
11-07-2004, 09:20 AM
How 'bout them Blues, beating 'pool, eh?

Good away win, that.
It was a fantastic away win - we were SOO lucky!

The second Izzet clearance off the goal line could so easily have been given as a pen. And we fluffed a load of chances (Heskey's was the worst). Then again. so did Liverpool.

The game was hardly a showcase for the best of the Premiership, but I'll happily take a win at Anfield however it comes to us.

idseer
11-07-2004, 10:17 AM
Konerko the team MVP?!?! I'm still laughing over that one.
:?:

don't know what you're laughing at. i would bet that konerko will get more mvp votes than anyone else on the team.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-07-2004, 10:21 AM
:?:

don't know what you're laughing at. i would bet that konerko will get more mvp votes than anyone else on the team.
Well, sure. Our #3 and #4 hitters spent most of the season on the DL. I'm sure there were lots of Sox Fans who thought Tony Muser was the team MVP back in 1974, too.

:cool:

idseer
11-07-2004, 10:33 AM
Well, sure. Our #3 and #4 hitters spent most of the season on the DL. I'm sure there were lots of Sox Fans who thought Tony Muser was the team MVP back in 1974, too.

:cool:
i'm well aware of the injuries. my point remains, however.

and please don't tell me you actually are actually suggesting tony muser was on a par with paul. i don't think you want to look at that comparison

Ol' No. 2
11-07-2004, 10:45 AM
As dumb as you may think they are, they won't deal Johnson to make their team worse, more expensive, and less attractive to paying customers.

Garland and Rowand might be the start of a package that works for them, but I can't see how Garland and Konerko would be.The D-backs come out ahead on this deal because they cut Richie Sexson loose. They replace Sexson with PK, replace RJ with Garland (not the same quality, but they're rebuilding, so RJ won't be around for the result, anyway) and have Sexson's money available to address other needs. This makes GREAT sense for the D-backs. And if it comes to that, I'd much rather have Johnson + Grilli than Garland + any FA available.

Man Soo Lee
11-07-2004, 11:10 AM
The D-backs come out ahead on this deal because they cut Richie Sexson loose. They replace Sexson with PK, replace RJ with Garland (not the same quality, but they're rebuilding, so RJ won't be around for the result, anyway) and have Sexson's money available to address other needs. This makes GREAT sense for the D-backs. And if it comes to that, I'd much rather have Johnson + Grilli than Garland + any FA available.
Having Sexson's money to spend is a good point, but I still don't see why a rebuilding team wants Konerko with one year on his contract.

beckett21
11-07-2004, 11:17 AM
Rogers was just on ESPN radio & said Konerko/Garland for Unit.

He also said we're not a player in the CB sweepstakes cause CB wants to "go to a winner."Yeah. So did the $252 million dollar man.

It all boils down to who is the highest bidder. Generally speaking, those are the "winners," Mets and Orioles excluded.

:hijacked:



This is not in direct reference to this post but a general observation of mine on this board. People here, for the most part, seem to have a noble, romantic image of Beltran while at the same time characterize Magglio as a greedy pig. While I cannot defend Maggs' stance in regards to refusing the Sox to examine his knee, he is simply looking out for his best interests and trying to maximize his income. There is nothing wrong with that. I do not agree with his tactics, but so be it.

By the same token, anyone who honestly thinks that Beltran would accept a lesser offer out of desire to play for *a winner* is deluding themselves. Wherever he goes, he is going to get paid. That is his right, and I am not begrudging him that. It just bothers me that Beltran is being deified while at the same time Magglio is being ostracized. As a Sox fan, I understand the hurt and feeling of betrayal. But this is business, plain and simple.

Put Beltran in Magglio's shoes, who is to say he would not behave the same way?



Just had to get that off my chest, you can have your thread back now. :redneck

:duck:

mdep524
11-07-2004, 11:18 AM
Randy Johnson would certainly be a big splash, and would improve this team. But I hope KW looks at trading for Tim Hudson or Mark Mulder from Oakland. Hudson is younger than RJ, and about $10 million cheaper for '05. That is a HUGE difference. He's also less of an injury risk, and there's the chance that the Sox could pull another Garcia- trade for a premier SP in their contract year and then sign them to an extention before the season ends. I think this would position the Sox a lot better not only for '05 but for the long term.

mdep524
11-07-2004, 11:25 AM
Yeah. So did the $252 million dollar man.

It all boils down to who is the highest bidder. Generally speaking, those are the "winners," Mets and Orioles excluded.

:hijacked:



This is not in direct reference to this post but a general observation of mine on this board. People here, for the most part, seem to have a noble, romantic image of Beltran while at the same time characterize Magglio as a greedy pig. While I cannot defend Maggs' stance in regards to refusing the Sox to examine his knee, he is simply looking out for his best interests and trying to maximize his income. There is nothing wrong with that. I do not agree with his tactics, but so be it.

By the same token, anyone who honestly thinks that Beltran would accept a lesser offer out of desire to play for *a winner* is deluding themselves. Wherever he goes, he is going to get paid. That is his right, and I am not begrudging him that. It just bothers me that Beltran is being deified while at the same time Magglio is being ostracized. As a Sox fan, I understand the hurt and feeling of betrayal. But this is business, plain and simple.

Put Beltran in Magglio's shoes, who is to say he would not behave the same way?



Just had to get that off my chest, you can have your thread back now. :redneck

Good point, beckett. One way in which it is different though is that Magglio came up with the Sox and has spent his entire career so far with the Sox. Beltran's first organization, the Royals, are not even remotely interested in or capable of ponying up to retain him, so its not even an option. Thus, Beltran has no "hometown" team or "sentimental" team like Magglio has in the White Sox. Not that any of that really means anything though, like you said-whoever the highest bidder is will coincidentally be the best "fit" for Beltran and Maggs.

sircaffey1
11-07-2004, 11:33 AM
I don't think ARZ would be able to get away with trading RJ for young prospects/major leaguers that aren't able to make an impact right now. A lot of that franchise has gone to s*** and if they trade their superstar for faceless players, then everything that hasnt gone to s***, will.

SOXSINCE'70
11-07-2004, 11:35 AM
Well, sure. Our #3 and #4 hitters spent most of the season on the DL. I'm sure there were lots of Sox Fans who thought Tony Muser was the team MVP back in 1974, too.

:cool:
Tony Muser?!?! OY VAY!!!

Please say you're kidding,PHG.

Daver
11-07-2004, 11:37 AM
I don't think ARZ would be able to get away with trading RJ for young prospects/major leaguers that aren't able to make an impact right now. A lot of that franchise has gone to $hit and if they trade their superstar for faceless players, then everything that hasnt gone to $hit, will.

You should probably read this. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21854)

yadosoxfan
11-07-2004, 11:53 AM
As much as I would love to see randy on the white sox, we have to look at what we are giving up for just one year of production. I think by signing a FA pitcher (lowe, pavano, etc.) would be helping this team more then trading jon and paulie for RJ. jon's only 25 years old, id rather not see him blossom into a stud pitcher on another team. paulies probably not gonna be here after next year anyways, but with the loss of maggs probable and the low probability of signing a replacement of maggs production, i think we will need pauls bat this year if we want to contend, even more then randys arm.

beckett21
11-07-2004, 12:01 PM
Good point, beckett. One way in which it is different though is that Magglio came up with the Sox and has spent his entire career so far with the Sox. Beltran's first organization, the Royals, are not even remotely interested in or capable of ponying up to retain him, so its not even an option. Thus, Beltran has no "hometown" team or "sentimental" team like Magglio has in the White Sox. Not that any of that really means anything though, like you said-whoever the highest bidder is will coincidentally be the best "fit" for Beltran and Maggs.Point taken, and yes the situations are very different. Understood.

I can't imagine the Royals were *not interested* in retaining Beltran's services, however. I would defer to the Royal fans as to whether or not he had a sentimental, *hometown* team. My guess is that they would disagree with your assertion.

The reality, of course, is that his salary would have hamstrung that franchise for a decade or more and ensured a losing team in the process. But if he were truly this noble patron saint of baseball, he would have stayed in Kansas City, at a hometown discount, free agency be damned.

See how ridiculous that sounds? That is my point about Maggs. These guys are going to get as much as the market will bear. Hometown discounts have gone the way of the dodo. Why should Maggs be held to a different standard?

santo=dorf
11-07-2004, 12:07 PM
As much as I would love to see randy on the white sox, we have to look at what we are giving up for just one year of production. I think by signing a FA pitcher (lowe, pavano, etc.) would be helping this team more then trading jon and paulie for RJ. jon's only 25 years old, id rather not see him blossom into a stud pitcher on another team. paulies probably not gonna be here after next year anyways, but with the loss of maggs probable and the low probability of signing a replacement of maggs production, i think we will need pauls bat this year if we want to contend, even more then randys arm.If we were to actually sign a FA pitcher (c'mon!!!! Look who owns the team for God' sake!) it would require us lock up even more money in our starting rotation for the next couple of years.
Lowe-Huge postseason that increased his value, and is represented by Scott Boras.
Pavano- Has expressed interest in playing on the east coast (Mets, Yanks, Red Sox) so there's no reason to try and get into a bidding war with those 3 particular teams on a pitcher who FINALLY had his breakout year.
As for Jon only being "X" years old, how many more years am I going to have to hear that? Maybe one more considering he'll be a FA after this year, so there is no reason :whiner: about him becoming a better pitcher in a couple of years when he his playing with another team.

Paulie's bat only helps us out on at home, and IMO his offensive can be made up with the most dominating pitcher of the past 5 years.

Flight #24
11-07-2004, 12:08 PM
[QUOTE=beckett21]QUOTE]

To me, the point is more aboutthe fact that at anywhere close to similar $$, Beltran's a much much much better option than maggs, and that's assuming his knee is fine. I also think the whole way that maggs has conducted his offseason has put a bad taste in a lot of fans mouths, which plays out in how he's perceived for what might otherwise be normal behaviour.

On a side note: Anyone else catch the Bruce Levine bit on AM1000 yesterday afternoon? He said that Beltran's been wanting to fire Boras, but because he's got a "personal services contract" rather than just an agent contract, he can't. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

beckett21
11-07-2004, 12:21 PM
[QUOTE=beckett21]QUOTE]

To me, the point is more aboutthe fact that at anywhere close to similar $$, Beltran's a much much much better option than maggs, and that's assuming his knee is fine. I also think the whole way that maggs has conducted his offseason has put a bad taste in a lot of fans mouths, which plays out in how he's perceived for what might otherwise be normal behaviour.
:hijacked:

My apologies, I know this was a RJ thread. Sorry to go off on a tangent.

FWIW, I am not disputing anything you are saying. Beltran over Maggs, all things equal, is a no-brainer in my book too.

What is over the line to me is people wishing Maggs' career to be over, and calling him a selfish pig. People are also up in arms about him switching agents to Boras....who coincidentally represents Beltran as well.

This has been beaten to death in other threads, so I'll make this my last post on the subject since it is really out of place in this thread. The Rogers' quote about Beltran wanting to go to a *winner* just rubbed me the wrong way and sent me off on this tangent. (I am assuming then that by definition of *winner* that automatically excludes the Chicago National League ballclub as well, huh Phil?):mad:

[END OF HIJACK]

As far as Randy Johnson is concerned, I am officially convinced the man is a freak of nature. I would gladly welcome him to the White Sox for a year or two. First basemen are a dime a dozen compared to 300-K, 20 win pitchers.

RKMeibalane
11-07-2004, 12:34 PM
First basemen are a dime a dozen compared to 300-K, 20 win pitchers.
I agree. Frank Thomas can play first base at least part of time if Konerko is traded. In the event that Frank's ankle prevents him from playing the field, the Sox can always go out and sign a Tony Clark-type player for relatively cheap. As long as they have someone around who can provide adequate production at 1B, they're going to be okay. As I said in an earlier post, with Thomas, Lee, Rowand, and a healthy Carl Everett, the Sox have enough power in their lineup.

I would love to see the Sox add a pitcher like Randy Johnson. A threesome of Johnson-Buehrle-Garcia is amongst the best in baseball.

santo=dorf
11-07-2004, 12:47 PM
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/bschalle/www/Randysox3.JPG
:supernana:

mdep524
11-07-2004, 12:51 PM
I agree. Frank Thomas can play first base at least part of time if Konerko is traded. In the event that Frank's ankle prevents him from playing the field, the Sox can always go out and sign a Tony Clark-type player for relatively cheap. As long as they have someone around who can provide adequate production at 1B, they're going to be okay. As I said in an earlier post, with Thomas, Lee, Rowand, and a healthy Carl Everett, the Sox have enough power in their lineup.

I would love to see the Sox add a pitcher like Randy Johnson. A threesome of Johnson-Buehrle-Garcia is amongst the best in baseball.
Unfortunately, I think Big Frank's days at 1B are over forever- and that might even include interleague play. Every time he goes out there, it seems, he gets injured. Now another year older and coming off a serious foot injury, I think the Sox see Frank as too delicate to play 1B ever. I wonder if Carl Everett can pick up 1B at all. I know we've speculated about it here, but is there any sense the Sox would actually consider that?

Lip Man 1
11-07-2004, 01:02 PM
JB98:

Tom Seaver won 16 games each of his two seasons with the Sox in 1984 and 1985. He produced...I'd love to acquire a pitcher who could produce as much as Seaver did today.

Lip

RKMeibalane
11-07-2004, 01:18 PM
Unfortunately, I think Big Frank's days at 1B are over forever- and that might even include interleague play. Every time he goes out there, it seems, he gets injured. Now another year older and coming off a serious foot injury, I think the Sox see Frank as too delicate to play 1B ever. I wonder if Carl Everett can pick up 1B at all. I know we've speculated about it here, but is there any sense the Sox would actually consider that?
I don't know if its accurate to say that Frank gets hurt every time he plays there. The ankle injury he suffered in 2004 was the result of his being hit by a batted ball while running the bases. That could've happened just as easily during a game in an American League park. I do agree, however, that there is some question about whether Frank can play there during the season. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Regardless, there are other players the Sox can accquire if Konerko isn't around. There are several Tony Clark or Brain Daubach types around baseball that can play first base on a regular basis. I think Travis Lee may be availible. He didn't play much with the Yankees after getting hurt early in the season.

mdep524
11-07-2004, 01:30 PM
I don't know if its accurate to say that Frank gets hurt every time he plays there. The ankle injury he suffered in 2004 was the result of his being hit by a batted ball while running the bases. That could've happened just as easily during a game in an American League park. I do agree, however, that there is some question about whether Frank can play there during the season. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens. True, not literally every time he plays the field, but in 2001 he had a season-ending injury diving for a ground ball (not an easy play, but one that regular first basemen attempt frequently without injury). Then he had to sit out a few games toward the end of Spring Training this year because his shoulder was too sore from throwing the ball while playing the infield. Considering his size and delicate foot, I really don't think we'll ever see Frank at 1B again, and hopefully that will keep him healthy (healthier, anyway) and productive.

beckett21
11-07-2004, 01:36 PM
Regardless, there are other players the Sox can accquire if Konerko isn't around. There are several Tony Clark or Brain Daubach types around baseball that can play first base on a regular basis. I think Travis Lee may be availible. He didn't play much with the Yankees after getting hurt early in the season.
For the offense-minded, Brad Fullmer. Or for the defensive types, JT Snow. Either one would be more than servicable IMO, and probably affordable.

SomebodyToldMe
11-07-2004, 01:43 PM
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/bschalle/www/Randysox3.JPG




:supernana:

best.pic.ever.

LAWSfan
11-07-2004, 02:31 PM
That can be said of anyone. What if the Sox knew before going into 2004 that both Maggs and Frank would be lost for over half of the season?

Dare to be great or don't try at all...
Of course all trades are a gamble. Even the Griffey and ARod trades were gambles. But when you make a trade for ARod at 28 or so, the chances that his skills diminish and he becomes a average player aren't as likely as when you trade from a 41 year old pitcher, who has bad knees and isn't in his prime anymore.

California Sox
11-07-2004, 02:42 PM
The idea of giving up two players in their primes for a 41 year-old pitcher terrifies me. Remember, the Sox are a graveyard for All-Star careers: Santo, Sax, both Alomars, David Wells... The list goes on and on and on. The only older player we got who didn't blow was Seaver. Plus, I think the Sox plus Johnson and minus Konerko and Garland are not a contender. They'd have one and a half good hitters (Lee and Thomas for half a season after he got healthy). They are average or below average at third, short, second, first (minus Konerko), catcher, and right field. They'd have to lead the AL in ERA while playing in the Cell. That's a mighty tall order. If they're so hyped up about spending 16 million, keep Konerko and sign Pavano.

santo=dorf
11-07-2004, 02:45 PM
If Jon Garland is in his "prime" right now, I'd hate to see how he pitches when his career is on the downside. :o:

LAWSfan
11-07-2004, 02:47 PM
If Jon Garland is in his "prime" right now, I'd hate to see how he pitches when his career is on the downside. :o:
Shouldn't sarcasm be in teal?

jabrch
11-07-2004, 03:02 PM
Is there a move we can make that people won't bitch about?

If we get RJ, it is clear people will bitch. If we sign Beltran to a 7+ and 15mm+ deal, and that limits what KW can do with the rest of the squad given whatever budget he has, there will definitely be people bitching. If we go out and get 2 FA SPs to fill the rotation, but lose Magglio, people will bitch that we lost offense and didn't replace it.

Short of JR raising the payroll to over 125mm so we are spending in the top 5 in the game (which we all know isn't happening for a bevy of reasons) or selling it to someone who would (is there such a person out there - and if so would he/she please make JR an offer he cant refuse NOW?) I am wondering what this organization can do to make the largest number its fans happy.

fuzzy_patters
11-07-2004, 03:13 PM
Is there a move we can make that people won't bitch about?

If we get RJ, it is clear people will bitch. If we sign Beltran to a 7+ and 15mm+ deal, and that limits what KW can do with the rest of the squad given whatever budget he has, there will definitely be people bitching. If we go out and get 2 FA SPs to fill the rotation, but lose Magglio, people will bitch that we lost offense and didn't replace it.

Short of JR raising the payroll to over 125mm so we are spending in the top 5 in the game (which we all know isn't happening for a bevy of reasons) or selling it to someone who would (is there such a person out there - and if so would he/she please make JR an offer he cant refuse NOW?) I am wondering what this organization can do to make the largest number its fans happy.
Why do you have such a problem with it? People are always going to have dissenting viewpoints. There are no moves that will make 100% of people happy. BFD.

RKMeibalane
11-07-2004, 03:20 PM
Why do you have such a problem with it? People are always going to have dissenting viewpoints. There are no moves that will make 100% of people happy. BFD.
The best way to deal with jabrch is to ignore him. This is the same person who thinks that there is no such thing as a "Frank-hater." He clearly has no connection with reality. I try not to pay attention to his posts.

FightingBillini
11-07-2004, 03:25 PM
For the offense-minded, Brad Fullmer. Or for the defensive types, JT Snow. Either one would be more than servicable IMO, and probably affordable.
I agree. I have been saying for some time that we should pick up Snow if we trade Konerko. He is great defensively, and coing off a career year batting. Also, he can probably be had relatively cheaply. However, he has either a team or player option this year, cant remember which.

oldcomiskey
11-07-2004, 03:32 PM
Some Sox fans may recall we were supposed to win it all in '84 after we acquired the "great" Tom Seaver. Well, at one point in time, he was great, but not with the Sox.

Let's learn our lesson from history.
what are you talking about--he won 15 games in 85

Paulwny
11-07-2004, 03:45 PM
A possible stumbling block, since RJ has to agree to any trade look for him to try and get a contract extension.

kittle42
11-07-2004, 04:18 PM
The idea of giving up two players in their primes for a 41 year-old pitcher terrifies me. Remember, the Sox are a graveyard for All-Star careers: Santo, Sax, both Alomars, David Wells... The list goes on and on and on. The only older player we got who didn't blow was Seaver. Plus, I think the Sox plus Johnson and minus Konerko and Garland are not a contender. They'd have one and a half good hitters (Lee and Thomas for half a season after he got healthy). They are average or below average at third, short, second, first (minus Konerko), catcher, and right field. They'd have to lead the AL in ERA while playing in the Cell. That's a mighty tall order. If they're so hyped up about spending 16 million, keep Konerko and sign Pavano.
I have to agree. This offense, even if Vizquel is added, scares me without Konerko. Take the damn momey and buy a free agent.

:reinsy
"No."

beckett21
11-07-2004, 04:36 PM
I have to agree. This offense, even if Vizquel is added, scares me without Konerko. Take the damn momey and buy a free agent.Easier said than done. Guys are not exactly lining up to take Uncle Jer's money.

What terrifies me is another year of *business as usual*. Despite his age, there is still no more dominant pitcher in the game today than Randy Johnson. Period.

The Sox have tried clubbing other teams to death. I am sick and tired of 12-10 and 8-7 scores. It hasn't worked; time to try winning with pitching and defense.

What a novel concept. :o:

cornball
11-07-2004, 04:58 PM
Of course all trades are a gamble. Even the Griffey and ARod trades were gambles. But when you make a trade for ARod at 28 or so, the chances that his skills diminish and he becomes a average player aren't as likely as when you trade from a 41 year old pitcher, who has bad knees and isn't in his prime anymore.
I remember Schu said the same thing about Clemens about 5 years ago that he was done, too old nothing in the tank..... depends on the person. Nolan Ryan's best years were in his 40's.

Bisco Stu
11-07-2004, 05:11 PM
With Unit on this staff, we're instant pennant contenders, with 4 15-20 game winners in the rotation.

Four years of blah baseball, we have to make this trade.

Brian26
11-07-2004, 05:46 PM
With Unit on this staff, we're instant pennant contenders, with 4 15-20 game winners in the rotation.

Who's the 4th 15 game winner? For that matter, Buehrle and Garcia aren't 15-win locks either. You don't play games on paper.

santo=dorf
11-07-2004, 05:59 PM
Who's the 4th 15 game winner? For that matter, Buehrle and Garcia aren't 15-win locks either. You don't play games on paper.
Contreras could win 15 if Cooper actually earns his paycheck.

Brian26
11-07-2004, 06:23 PM
Contreras could win 15 if Cooper actually earns his paycheck.
I'd put that more on Contreras keeping his own head straight than Coop trying to beat it into him with a hammer.

TDog
11-07-2004, 06:29 PM
Some Sox fans may recall we were supposed to win it all in '84 after we acquired the "great" Tom Seaver. Well, at one point in time, he was great, but not with the Sox.

Let's learn our lesson from history.
Seaver might not have been great in 1984, but he turned out to be the best pitcher on the Sox that year.

He also didn't cost anything.

History teaches us that Bannister was a bum except for the second half of 1983 and Hoyt should have watched his weight after winning the Cy Young Award. And, by the way, signing Cruz wasn't a smart move. Acquiring Seaver was the only thing anybody did right going into 1984.

jabrch
11-07-2004, 07:16 PM
signing Cruz wasn't a smart move.

Is JR still paying Cruz? :D:

Ol' No. 2
11-07-2004, 07:46 PM
Contreras could win 15 if Cooper actually earns his paycheck.I'm no big Cooper fan, but I don't think you can lay Contreras' problem on Cooper. He can tell him till he's blue in the face, but he can't do it for him.

MRKARNO
11-07-2004, 08:30 PM
I said this in the Beltran thread and I'll say it again, but this thread proves that White Sox fans will complain about ANYTHING. We're talking about trading a slow first basemen coming off a career year who doesn't hit for crap on the road and a decent headcase pitcher who hasnt shown any signs of improvement for the single most dominating pitcher in baseball. Sports medicine today is more advanced and the White Sox have one of the best medical staffs in baseball. Randy Johnson is the type of player that can singlehandedly take you to the World Series if you put a decent team around him and get the team into the playoffs. We need pitching much more than we need hitting and if we were to get rid of Lee or Konerko, Konerko is definately the player you get rid of due to less years on the contract (Lee has an extra option year) and the fact that Lee is a better all around player.

Hypothetically, if the White Sox were to trade Konerko and Garland for Bonds, I can already see the outrage. There isnt a single player in baseball that would make everyone here happy apparently. Not Carlos Beltran. Not Randy Johnson.

OEO Magglio
11-07-2004, 08:31 PM
I said this in the Beltran thread and I'll say it again, but this thread proves that White Sox fans will complain about ANYTHING. We're talking about trading a slow first basemen coming off a career year who doesn't hit for crap on the road and a decent headcase pitcher who hasnt shown any signs of improvement for the single most dominating pitcher in baseball. Sports medicine today is more advanced and the White Sox have one of the best medical staffs in baseball. Randy Johnson is the type of player that can singlehandedly take you to the World Series if you put a decent team around him and get the team into the playoffs. We need pitching much more than we need hitting and if we were to get rid of Lee or Konerko, Konerko is definately the player you get rid of due to less years on the contract (Lee has an extra option year) and the fact that Lee is a better all around player.

Hypothetically, if the White Sox were to trade Konerko and Garland for Bonds, I can already see the outrage. There isnt a single player in baseball that would make everyone here happy apparently. Not Carlos Beltran. Not Randy Johnson.

:worship: :worship: POTY!!!!!!!!!

RKMeibalane
11-07-2004, 08:36 PM
I said this in the Beltran thread and I'll say it again, but this thread proves that White Sox fans will complain about ANYTHING. We're talking about trading a slow first basemen coming off a career year who doesn't hit for crap on the road and a decent headcase pitcher who hasnt shown any signs of improvement for the single most dominating pitcher in baseball. Sports medicine today is more advanced and the White Sox have one of the best medical staffs in baseball. Randy Johnson is the type of player that can singlehandedly take you to the World Series if you put a decent team around him and get the team into the playoffs. We need pitching much more than we need hitting and if we were to get rid of Lee or Konerko, Konerko is definately the player you get rid of due to less years on the contract (Lee has an extra option year) and the fact that Lee is a better all around player.

Hypothetically, if the White Sox were to trade Konerko and Garland for Bonds, I can already see the outrage. There isnt a single player in baseball that would make everyone here happy apparently. Not Carlos Beltran. Not Randy Johnson.
Hypothetical scenario:

:KW

"Sox fans, it is my honor to stand before you here today and announce that the Chicago White Sox have traded Paul Konerko and Jon Garland to the Diamondbacks in exchange for pitcher Randy Johnson. In addition, we have also signed Babe Ruth to a long-term contract. You may be aware that Ruth was recently brought back to life by a team of Sweedish scientists and physicans. He now has the body of a twenty-five year-old man, and we are looking forward to him being a part of the Chicago White Sox organization for a long time."

:reinsy

"And the best part is, Ruth works cheap!"

:hurt

"Great! I finally have some protection behind me in the order."

:ohno

"Damn it! What the **** is wrong with Williams? He had the chance to sign Travis Lee, and instead he's stuck us with a forty-something has-been, and an overweight, beer-drinking slob who only hits home runs. Fire KW! Fire him now!"

RKMeibalane
11-07-2004, 08:40 PM
:tomatoaward

JKryl
11-07-2004, 09:48 PM
OK, y'all can call me a cynical old goat, but does else anyone think that this might be merely a ploy by the Trib to shift more copies to a market-segment they have (presumably) failed to fully penetrate so far (Sox fans)??

Or, does it mean they're going to start paying more attention to the Sox (unlikely, I admit, given their relationship to the other team in Chicago) to prove that there's no Cubbie-bias?
Ok Ed, since you insist, you're a cynical old goat. Now that that's over, I don't think the Cubune thinks far enough ahead to work on ploys. I think they feel guilty for ignoring the Sox, and are throwing out all the wild rumors they hear to generate intrest. :bandance: :supernana: :bandance:

jabrch
11-07-2004, 10:09 PM
I said this in the Beltran thread and I'll say it again, but this thread proves that White Sox fans will complain about ANYTHING.

Can...and do....

A. Cavatica
11-07-2004, 10:10 PM
This trade rumor has the ring of truth to it. I could easily see KW trading Konerko and Garland for RJ and the D-Backs not picking up any significant chunk of his salary. Then the Sox will do nothing to address their other holes, and finish below .500.

This team is a long, long way from going deep into the playoffs, and RJ at 41 is not a player you can build around.

I'd gladly trade Konerko and Garland -- they are among the few tradeable pieces we have who have some value -- but I'd have to fill holes in the process, not create them.

MHOUSE
11-07-2004, 10:18 PM
I just don't see how acquiring Randy Johnson at all costs and whatever price will mean that we can order our world series tickets now. I think that we have too many holes to fill for one pitcher to fix everything. Divide the funds among the middle infield, a fifth starter, and perhaps a more solid/veteran bench. Konerko was our best offensive player last year, dealing him makes little sense. Kenny Williams has been a victim in every big trade to put us over the top. Why go there again?

Jjav829
11-07-2004, 11:10 PM
I said this in the Beltran thread and I'll say it again, but this thread proves that White Sox fans will complain about ANYTHING. We're talking about trading a slow first basemen coming off a career year who doesn't hit for crap on the road and a decent headcase pitcher who hasnt shown any signs of improvement for the single most dominating pitcher in baseball. Sports medicine today is more advanced and the White Sox have one of the best medical staffs in baseball. Randy Johnson is the type of player that can singlehandedly take you to the World Series if you put a decent team around him and get the team into the playoffs. We need pitching much more than we need hitting and if we were to get rid of Lee or Konerko, Konerko is definately the player you get rid of due to less years on the contract (Lee has an extra option year) and the fact that Lee is a better all around player.

Hypothetically, if the White Sox were to trade Konerko and Garland for Bonds, I can already see the outrage. There isnt a single player in baseball that would make everyone here happy apparently. Not Carlos Beltran. Not Randy Johnson.
You're right. From now on, I say we come up with one opinion for every issue. That way we can all think alike. Every thread will consist of about 10 posts and each of those posts with look something like:

"YAy!! I like that idea!1!!!:smile: :D: :smile: :bandance: :supernana: :gulp: "

Seriously, I'm tired of seeing people complaining because not everyone agrees with them. Every person here has their own idea of what the Sox should do this offseason. I don't mean to call you out by quoting your post, because I've seen this plenty of times. Your post just happened to be the one I quoted but there are plenty of other posts I could have said this to. I don't know what people want. Someone explain this to me. Why should everyone agree on every possible move that the Sox could make? To me, these boards are meant for the exact opposite. They are meant to have differing opinions. I don't read these posts because I want to see everyone agree with me. I want to see a differing point of view, something that makes me reconsider my position. Hell, you might just make me change my mind.

Ol' No. 2
11-07-2004, 11:14 PM
I just don't see how acquiring Randy Johnson at all costs and whatever price will mean that we can order our world series tickets now. I think that we have too many holes to fill for one pitcher to fix everything. Divide the funds among the middle infield, a fifth starter, and perhaps a more solid/veteran bench. Konerko was our best offensive player last year, dealing him makes little sense. Kenny Williams has been a victim in every big trade to put us over the top. Why go there again?I recall my HS track coach saying, "If you want to win the high jump, you need one guy that can jump 7 feet, not seven guys who can jump 1 foot." Same principle applies here. Spreading the money around gets you a bunch of mediocre players. If you've been paying attention at all, you will have noticed that WS teams almost invariably have one thing in common - solid pitching. And I don't mean Judy Garland. Randy Johnson is a difference-maker.

They can easily pick up a 1B as good as Kevin Millar for a reasonable amount to fill the gap, but I wouldn't count Ross Gload out. He won't put up All-Star numbers, but he can probably match Millar, and that seemed to be good enough for the other Sox.

There aren't any bigger Paul Konerko fans than I. When everyone wanted to dump him last year, I was one of the few people who thought he would bounce back from his horrible 2003. But if they have a chance to get Randy Johnson...I don't even have to think twice. "See ya, Pauly. It's been great. Good luck in Arizona."

HITMEN OF 77
11-07-2004, 11:44 PM
RJ for PK and JG = Dumb move. I'd do a JG and prospects for RJ however.

mdep524
11-07-2004, 11:48 PM
You're right. From now on, I say we come up with one opinion for every issue. That way we can all think alike. Every thread will consist of about 10 posts and each of those posts with look something like:

"YAy!! I like that idea!1!!!:smile: :D: :smile: :bandance: :supernana: :gulp: "

Seriously, I'm tired of seeing people complaining because not everyone agrees with them. Every person here has their own idea of what the Sox should do this offseason. I don't mean to call you out by quoting your post, because I've seen this plenty of times. Your post just happened to be the one I quoted but there are plenty of other posts I could have said this to. I don't know what people want. Someone explain this to me. Why should everyone agree on every possible move that the Sox could make? To me, these boards are meant for the exact opposite. They are meant to have differing opinions. I don't read these posts because I want to see everyone agree with me. I want to see a differing point of view, something that makes me reconsider my position. Hell, you might just make me change my mind.I totally agree with you jjav. (Ironic considering the point of your post :cool: ) That reminds me of bands' message boards, where, even if you're clearly a die hard fan, you can't criticize anything about the band because they are infallible. If you try to say anything even remotely negative you have to :cower:. Those boards are boring, and most of the conversations aren't very good or insightful.

We're all Sox fans here, that's a given. And we all want what's best for the team, even though obviously there is no "one way" to run a baseball team. So I think its cool we have so many different points of view on issues.

JB98
11-08-2004, 01:21 AM
Seaver might not have been great in 1984, but he turned out to be the best pitcher on the Sox that year.

He also didn't cost anything.

History teaches us that Bannister was a bum except for the second half of 1983 and Hoyt should have watched his weight after winning the Cy Young Award. And, by the way, signing Cruz wasn't a smart move. Acquiring Seaver was the only thing anybody did right going into 1984.
Clearly, I didn't articulate my point of view very well on this. When Seaver was acquired, that was supposed to be the move that put us over the top. That didn't turn out to be the case for a variety of different reasons, much of which had nothing to do with Seaver himself. I think a similar situation would develop in the event that we acquire RJ. Everyone will hail it as a big splash move and claim we are instant contenders. Then, the season will start. We'll snap back to reality and realize that we are more than just one starting pitcher away from being championship contenders.

That's really my whole point in this. RJ may have another good year in him, but it's going to take a helluva lot more than that for us to get to the playoffs, let alone the World Series. Quite a few on this board have been critical of KW for mortgaging the future and going for the quick fix. From my persepective, a 41-year-old RJ is the ultimate attempt at a quick fix, yet everyone seems to be all aboard the bandwagon. Personally, I'm just not willing to part with any more of our younger players in a "Win now!" type of transaction when I don't feel we're really all that close to becoming a serious contender.

Our greatest chance in this decade was 2003, and we choked in September. The window of opportunity for Frank and Maggs to lead us to championship has now closed. Frank's health is no longer a sure thing, and we're certain to lose Maggs in free agency. I'm not sure what the formula to win it all in 2005 would be, but rest assured RJ wouldn't be enough.

LAWSfan
11-08-2004, 03:19 AM
I remember Schu said the same thing about Clemens about 5 years ago that he was done, too old nothing in the tank..... depends on the person. Nolan Ryan's best years were in his 40's.
How old was Clemens 5 years ago? And how many Ryans are there?

Could The Unit pitch well into his mid 40's sure. But I would doubt it.

beck72
11-08-2004, 06:40 AM
You make a valid point, the only problem is that if that trade became reality, we'd still be short a 5th starter and we'd lose one of our best power hitters in order to marginally improve the team. As good as RJ is, he can only play once every five games. I'd rather us keep Paulie and go after a decent 3rd or 4th starting pitcher. Randy Johnson is not going to be able to help us if it means sending Grilli/Munoz/Diaz/whoever else out there whenever its the 5th starters turn.Getting RJ would definitely help the sox if they got to the playoffs. The question is, would RJ/ GLoad help the Sox get to the playoffs more than Garland / PK? IMO, the RJ/ Gload combo helps the sox during the regular season and the if they got to the playoffs.

CubsfansareDRUNK
11-08-2004, 08:15 AM
I'd do a JG and prospects for RJ however.
duh

my take on the RJ for PK trade is: If it helps the team, then do it. Throughout my life as a white sox fan, my favorite player on the sox has always been konerko. I remember one day when i was watching a Sox/Royals game at my grandparent's house, Konerko got up, bases loaded. As soon as the ball hit that bat i knew that ball was outta there. Grand slam konerko. Anywho, I do think we need way better pitching and johnson could really help this team go somewhere.

surfdudes
11-08-2004, 08:42 AM
If anyone has to think about RJ for Konerko/Garland, I think something is wrong
with their perception of what this team needs to win. Runs and HR's have not done anything for us over the past few years, even though we are traditionally in the top few teams in these catagories. Konerko needs two hits to score him from second, because of his speed. Garland has been nothing but suspect when it comes to wheather he is the real deal or can pitch in a big game. I want quality starts, guys who can run the basepaths and bunt every now and then, and a little defense. I have always liked Konerko, and his turnaround from that abismal first halve last year shows what kind of a hitter he is, but Johnson is one of only a few guys that can take over a post season game and carry a team. I'll take my chances with the age/injury questions in a second, and Gload will do just fine at first, Thank You.

MisterB
11-08-2004, 10:38 AM
My feeling (as I think more than a few of us have) is that if KW pulls off PK+JG for RJ, it will be the only big move he'll make in the offseason. Looking at the salary figures (and assuming that Johnson's deferred $$ stays deferred) the Sox would have about $61M committed on their 25-man roster. If they sign Vizquel for the reported $4M, they're at the $65M that they ended up with last year. That also means any other improvements (like #5 starter, bullpen help, and solid backup plans if Everett can't hack playing RF or Crede fails to correct his Rectocranial Insertion) will depend almost solely on how much 'extra payroll' KW can talk JR into spending. I'm all for getting RJ - IF - KW can address the rest of the problems on the team first because if he doesn't, RJ just won't make enough of a difference.

Flight #24
11-08-2004, 10:51 AM
That's really my whole point in this. RJ may have another good year in him, but it's going to take a helluva lot more than that for us to get to the playoffs, let alone the World Series. Quite a few on this board have been critical of KW for mortgaging the future and going for the quick fix. From my persepective, a 41-year-old RJ is the ultimate attempt at a quick fix, yet everyone seems to be all aboard the bandwagon. Personally, I'm just not willing to part with any more of our younger players in a "Win now!" type of transaction when I don't feel we're really all that close to becoming a serious contender.


Looking at a potential JG+PK for RJ deal, from a long-term perspective you give up JG for the year of RJ and it's potential. I don't know that I'd see that as a huge loss for the Sox, and that's coming form someone who thinks that JG is one of, if not the best #4 or 5 starter in baseball. I just think that long-term, that's something you can replace, but you don't have a shot at an RJ type of player very often.

IMO, the only reason you don't do this trade (assuming it's available) is if for some reason you think Garland can take the step to being a consistent #2 or 3 starter. Otherwise, long-term you don't lose much and short term you have a shot.

If it doesn't work, you'll have$10mil to spend in FA after '05 to replace Konerko & Garland's production. I'd think you can easily do better than PK+JG for $10mil. In this offseason, 12mil might buy you JD Drew & Jon Lieber (8 & 4mil each), which I would consider a huge upgrade. 1B & 4th/5th starter are not the toughest of positions to fill if you have to, so I don't think putting yourself in a potsition where in a worst case scenario, you're trying to fill them is all that bad. Plus from a PR perspective, RJ = $$$ for the Sox since even if the team is bad, I'd expect him to draw.

FightingBillini
11-08-2004, 11:39 AM
Plus from a PR perspective, RJ = $$$ for the Sox since even if the team is bad, I'd expect him to draw.
Absolutely. More than just him bringing us to the playoffs, he gives us PR. They will actually have to mention the WHITE sox on ESPN. The more press we get, the more money the team makes. Attendence would be higher, becuase the fans would receive proof that the management wants to win. If nothing else, the attendence for days RJ pitches will be 5-10 thousand higher than on other days. That will add up. We might have a pitcher start the AS Game (yes, I know, Loaiza did in 03), and people would know we want to win. Most importantly, people all across the world will see beautiful US Cellular Field in the background when Johnson pitches his second perfect game.

JB98
11-08-2004, 11:40 AM
If anyone has to think about RJ for Konerko/Garland, I think something is wrong
with their perception of what this team needs to win. Runs and HR's have not done anything for us over the past few years, even though we are traditionally in the top few teams in these catagories. Konerko needs two hits to score him from second, because of his speed. Garland has been nothing but suspect when it comes to wheather he is the real deal or can pitch in a big game. I want quality starts, guys who can run the basepaths and bunt every now and then, and a little defense. I have always liked Konerko, and his turnaround from that abismal first halve last year shows what kind of a hitter he is, but Johnson is one of only a few guys that can take over a post season game and carry a team. I'll take my chances with the age/injury questions in a second, and Gload will do just fine at first, Thank You.
Gload is a nice left-handed stick off the bench and good for a couple spot starts a week. However, I think we'd be making a mistake by asking him to play 150 games at 1B. He had a great September, but I don't put much stock in the numbers a player puts up during extensive garbage time when all the pressure is off.

jordan23ventura
11-08-2004, 12:50 PM
RJ for PK and JG = Dumb move. I'd do a JG and prospects for RJ however.
Randy Johnson = 70% chance of taking Game 1 and 4 of any series. That's some good odds. When you plug Freddy and Mark as starting Games 2 and 3, I think there is a very good chance that the Sox can advance in the postseason.

The problem is getting there. I agree that RJ would not only be enough. We need some more offense, but the nice thing about a deal for RJ is that if the Sox were to fall out of playoff contention, they have one hell of a piece of trade bait. I'm sure they would be able to get more out of RJ at the allstar break then PK and Garland over the offseason, and perhaps even more if the Sox decide to pick up the rest of his salary.

All in all, I think it would be a great move, if for nothing else than the PR. The Sox wouldn't be screwing themselves at all here, but JR would have to open up a bit so KW can bring in some more run support.

kittle42
11-08-2004, 01:20 PM
Gload is a nice left-handed stick off the bench and good for a couple spot starts a week. However, I think we'd be making a mistake by asking him to play 150 games at 1B. He had a great September, but I don't put much stock in the numbers a player puts up during extensive garbage time when all the pressure is off.
Uh, oh - you'll start another FOG v. sensibility thread!

hitlesswonder
11-08-2004, 02:11 PM
Looking at a potential JG+PK for RJ deal, from a long-term perspective you give up JG for the year of RJ and it's potential. I don't know that I'd see that as a huge loss for the Sox, and that's coming form someone who thinks that JG is one of, if not the best #4 or 5 starter in baseball. I just think that long-term, that's something you can replace, but you don't have a shot at an RJ type of player very often.
I have to pretty much agree, with the caveat that the Sox still need to pay some money to get another SP and RP (or at least one of the 2). There's gotta be some FA pitcher out there for a few million dollars that's better than Grilli (I actually think Diaz is better, but never mind that).

The question is, are Garland and Konerko enough to get the deal done? I believe they both are free agents at the end of the year (aren't they?). If so, AZ would be trading Johnson for a 1B with bad home/road splits and a pitcher with a close to 5 ERA. They'll make around 12 to 13 million together next season. Johnson will make 10.5 million upfront, 6 million deferred. In the short run, this trade would raise AZ's payroll and I don't think improve them on the field much (if at all).

I have to imagine they'll want some player they control beyond this year, especially since they're not really saving much money at all. The Baltimore Sun reported the trade proposal as PK, JG, and prospects. I have to imagine that the prospects would include at least one high-level guy. Johnson is the last big trading chip AZ has and is big box office, I can't imagine they'll trade him cheaply.

Flight #24
11-08-2004, 02:43 PM
The question is, are Garland and Konerko enough to get the deal done? I believe they both are free agents at the end of the year (aren't they?). If so, AZ would be trading Johnson for a 1B with bad home/road splits and a pitcher with a close to 5 ERA. They'll make around 12 to 13 million together next season. Johnson will make 10.5 million upfront, 6 million deferred. In the short run, this trade would raise AZ's payroll and I don't think improve them on the field much (if at all).


Isn't Garland not yet eligible? Even if he is, I can see them getting him signed to a reasonable deal if traded - he hasn't exactly set the world on fire, so they could probably do something that would keep him happy and provide a solid value for them.

As for Konerko, yes, he's an FA - but he's also a solid 1B for them. Effectively, they get to redistribute the "RJ resources" form 1 stud pitcher to 1 decent young pitcher and a 1B (and since IIRC, Koney's from Arizona, they'd probably have a decent shot at resigning him before the season's end to a deal cheaper than his current $8mil/yr).

hitlesswonder
11-08-2004, 03:56 PM
Effectively, they get to redistribute the "RJ resources" form 1 stud pitcher to 1 decent young pitcher and a 1B (and since IIRC, Koney's from Arizona, they'd probably have a decent shot at resigning him before the season's end to a deal cheaper than his current $8mil/yr).If you were AZ's GM, would you make the trade? It obviously depends on some things we don't know (how tight AZ's budget is, the market for Johnson, etc.). But on a strictly talent & contract status basis, I'm honestly not sure I would. I'm much more sure I'd do it if I were the Sox GM. Anyway, I guess we'll find out...

Flight #24
11-08-2004, 03:59 PM
If you were AZ's GM, would you make the trade? It obviously depends on some things we don't know (how tight AZ's budget is, the market for Johnson, etc.). But on a strictly talent & contract status basis, I'm honestly not sure I would. I'm much more sure I'd do it if I were the Sox GM. Anyway, I guess we'll find out...
Depends on what else I could get. If the alternative is Yankee prospects, I might take the Sox offer. I haven't heard great things about the Yankee system, although admittedly I don't know a ton about it outside of what I read near the '04 trade deadline.

Garland gets ripped a lot locally, but his #s are actually decent, and I could see him being a solid pitcher in the NL. If they have him under contract for another year or 2 cheaply, I could see that being of value as they rebuild. No one's likely to give up top prospects for a 1-year rental on a very expensive pitcher.

Ol' No. 2
11-08-2004, 04:16 PM
Depends on what else I could get. If the alternative is Yankee prospects, I might take the Sox offer. I haven't heard great things about the Yankee system, although admittedly I don't know a ton about it outside of what I read near the '04 trade deadline.

Garland gets ripped a lot locally, but his #s are actually decent, and I could see him being a solid pitcher in the NL. If they have him under contract for another year or 2 cheaply, I could see that being of value as they rebuild. No one's likely to give up top prospects for a 1-year rental on a very expensive pitcher.The D-backs are rebuilding, which means they understand they're not going to contend next year. Johnson, at his age, doesn't want to be part of a rebuilding program, so he's certain to leave after 2005 anyway. If Johnson isn't going to be around until the rebuilding program bears fruit, what's the point of keeping him? It absolutely makes sense for the D-backs to deal Johnson for the best deal they can get. The only question is, what do they consider the highest priority to get in return? They're going to have a young infield, so having a veteran 1B is a plus, and they need to replace Sexson anyway. Who else is offering a better 1B? They also need a SS and a CF, so a team offering a good one of those might also get serious consideration.

And I agree that Garland is a much better pitcher than Sox fans give credit for. He'd be a solid #4 on most teams and a #3 on many.

Ol' No. 2
11-08-2004, 04:29 PM
An article in the Baltimore Sun reports that the Sox have made an offer of PK, JG and "prospects" (they didn't say who or how many) for Randy Johnson. They also said the D-backs weren't enthusiastic about the Yankees offer of Jorge Posada because of the amount of money he's still owed.

The original source is the Dayton Daily News. Here's the text.

Chisox want Unit

The Chicago White Sox have come up with a package of first baseman Paul Konerko, pitcher Jon Garland and prospects for Arizona's Randy "The Big Unit" Johnson.

Arizona remains reluctant to deal its only drawing card, and when they do deal the New York Yankees will be saying, "Hit me."

The Yankees, though, were rebuffed again when they offered catcher Jorge Posada. He is owed $33 million over the next four years and the D-Backs want to spend their cash on pitching, a shortstop and the outfield.

Flight #24
11-08-2004, 04:37 PM
An article in the Baltimore Sun reports that the Sox have made an offer of PK, JG and "prospects" (they didn't say who or how many) for Randy Johnson. They also said the D-backs weren't enthusiastic about the Yankees offer of Jorge Posada because of the amount of money he's still owed.
That scares me. If "prospects" means Bajenaru, Fields(P)or their ilk, OK. If it's any of hte group including BMac, Anderson, Sweeney, Gio, Fields(3B), or their ilk, then I'd say no.

Jjav829
11-08-2004, 04:40 PM
An article in the Baltimore Sun reports that the Sox have made an offer of PK, JG and "prospects" (they didn't say who or how many) for Randy Johnson. They also said the D-backs weren't enthusiastic about the Yankees offer of Jorge Posada because of the amount of money he's still owed.Here is the article (http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/1107bbinsider.html?UrAuth=aN`NUOcNUbTTUWUXUUUZTZUc UWU]U]UZUbU]UcTYWVVZV) that the Baltimore Sun is referring to. It's from Hal McCoy in the Dayton Daily News. You have to log in to read it (Name: Frank email: nospam32@yahoo.com password: password - Thanks bugmenot.com :smile: )

The excerpt about the Sox wanting Unit says pretty much what you mentioned. Sox have come up with a package of Konerko, Garland, and prospects for Unit. Arizona is reluctant to deal their only drawing card though and they are not interested in Posada as they are looking to spend money on pitching, a shortstop, and the outfield.

Flight #24
11-08-2004, 04:47 PM
Here is the article (http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/1107bbinsider.html?UrAuth=aN`NUOcNUbTTUWUXUUUZTZUc UWU]U]UZUbU]UcTYWVVZV) that the Baltimore Sun is referring to. It's from Hal McCoy in the Dayton Daily News. You have to log in to read it (Name: Frank email: nospam32@yahoo.com password: password - Thanks bugmenot.com :smile: )

The excerpt about the Sox wanting Unit says pretty much what you mentioned. Sox have come up with a package of Konerko, Garland, and prospects for Unit. Arizona is reluctant to deal their only drawing card though and they are not interested in Posada as they are looking to spend money on pitching, a shortstop, and the outfield.We've got them covered: Garland+Valdez+Everett, what more could they ask for???

EDIT: It doesn't really help their credibility any that they refer to the DBacks pushing out "chairman Jerry Reinsdorf". Unless maybe some of our own WSI faithful have been hacking the Sun website and acting out their dream scenarios?

Ol' No. 2
11-08-2004, 04:49 PM
Here is the article (http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/1107bbinsider.html?UrAuth=aN`NUOcNUbTTUWUXUUUZTZUc UWU]U]UZUbU]UcTYWVVZV) that the Baltimore Sun is referring to. It's from Hal McCoy in the Dayton Daily News. You have to log in to read it (Name: Frank email: nospam32@yahoo.com password: password - Thanks bugmenot.com :smile: )

The excerpt about the Sox wanting Unit says pretty much what you mentioned. Sox have come up with a package of Konerko, Garland, and prospects for Unit. Arizona is reluctant to deal their only drawing card though and they are not interested in Posada as they are looking to spend money on pitching, a shortstop, and the outfield.Methinks he needs to work on his fact-checking. Most of the article is on the D-backs fiasco with Wally Backmann. From the same article:

They fired manager Bob Brenly halfway through the season, they failed to sign their No. 1 draft pick (Stephen Drew), they pushed out chairman Jerry Reinsdorf and replaced him with player agent Jeff Moorad.

Jjav829
11-08-2004, 04:52 PM
We've got them covered: Garland+Valdez+Everett, what more could they ask for???

EDIT: It doesn't really help their credibility any that they refer to the DBacks pushing out "chairman Jerry Reinsdorf". Unless maybe some of our own WSI faithful have been hacking the Sun website and acting out their dream scenarios?
What the hell, throw in Adkins too. :smile:

Jjav829
11-08-2004, 04:56 PM
Methinks he needs to work on his fact-checking. Most of the article is on the D-backs fiasco with Wally Backmann. From the same article:
In fairness, Hal McCoy is legally blind, so that might explain the mistake.

santo=dorf
11-09-2004, 02:14 PM
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/sports/articles/1108dbacks1108.html

Garagiola also is expected to listen to offers from other teams involving Randy Johnson, although team officials reiterated last week that they would like to keep their 41-year-old ace.

The New York Yankees and Chicago White Sox are believed to be among the most aggressive suitors for Johnson, who will learn Tuesday whether he will win his sixth career Cy Young Award.Gotta love KW's aggressiveness. :gulp:

Paulwny
11-11-2004, 09:46 AM
A possible stumbling block, since RJ has to agree to any trade look for him to try and get a contract extension.
NY Post 11/11/04
Next year, Johnson, now 41, will earn $16 million, of which $6 million is deferred. The NL Cy Young runner-up to Roger Clemens has a no-trade clause, so he'll more than likely ask for one additional year on his contract to waive it.

santo=dorf
11-11-2004, 11:06 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1920544

Arizona hasn't talked to Johnson or put him out, but the White Sox have been very aggressive, offering Paul Konerko (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5908) and Jon Garland (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6396). One D-Backs official asked for Aaron Rowand (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6742) and didn't get a no, but Randy likely will say no to the White Sox, leaving the Yanks, Cardinals and Angels (who are trying to move pitchers' salaries like Ramon Ortiz (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6317)). Arizona GM Joe Garagiola keeps trying to sign Richie Sexson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5931), with little success.
:angry: :angry: :angry:

wdelaney72
11-11-2004, 11:18 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1920544

:angry: :angry: :angry:
Keep in mind, this is written by Peter Gammons.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 11:20 AM
Keep in mind, this is written by Peter Gammons.:boston What? No one believed my story about the Sox moving to the AL East?

wdelaney72
11-11-2004, 11:22 AM
I believe him about AZ requesting Aaron Rowand. That's the type of player their going to want. Remember, this is about Arizona dumping salary. Konerko is set for 8.75 million in Garland will get 3-4 million in Arbitration. That only frees up $4 million for AZ.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 11:25 AM
I believe him about AZ requesting Aaron Rowand. That's the type of player their going to want. Remember, this is about Arizona dumping salary. Konerko is set for 8.75 million in Garland will get 3-4 million in Arbitration. That only frees up $4 million for AZ.CF is one of the positions they're looking for help, along with SS and 1B. I'd be shocked if they DIDN'T want Rowand.

GoSox40
11-12-2004, 02:18 PM
I welcome a deal for Randy Johnson. Although you know he would only be here for one year. Second you have to give up much younger players such as Konerko or Lee. I would not be happy with Ross Gload at 1st base. And if Lee is gone whom do you throw out there? There are other players names tossed around. I heard most recently Richard Hidalgo. If we give up Lee for Johnson and bring in Hidalgo at discount disminished price that would not be that bad.

Second of all and I am a big Sox fan. Why would Randy Johnson want to come to the White Sox? He wants to win a championship. Until we beat Minnesota there is no winning in our foreseable future. Overall the Johnson thing is somewhat a pipedream.

Early speculation opening day roster:

1. Omar Vizquel SS
2. Juan Uribe 2B
3. Frank Thomas DH
4. Paul Konerko 1B
5. Carlos Lee LF/ Richard Hidalgo RF
6. Carl Everett RF/LF
7. Joe Crede 3B //// *** Troy Glaus 3B/Adrian Beltre 3B ***
8. Aaron Rowand CF
9. Ben Davis C / Jaime Burke C //// *** Jason Kendall C ***

Pitchers
Randy Johnson
Mark Buerlhe
Freddy Garcia
Jose Contreas
Jon Garland

Atkins/Marte/Politte

Mr. Zero

*** Just far off possibilities ***

Go Sox :D: