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jordan23ventura
11-05-2004, 04:31 AM
The biggest holes on the 2004 team were the No. 5 starter and the bullpen and those are the holes that should be examined first. The top priority should be getting a No. 1 or 2 starter to push everyone else back and even out the rotation, and after that we need serious help in the back of the bullpen. If JR is planning on raising the payroll enough to be competitive, he needs to raise it enough to fill these needs via free agency, because if they come at the expense of the little offense we have, this team is doomed.

That said, I would propose trading Konerko to anyone who would take him for prospects or bullpen help only, mainly as a salary dump. If you take his salary and put it towards Jason Varitek, as well as get a guy like Vizquel, we won't have all that bad of a team.

As always, everything depends on the health of the team. Assuming Carl Everett returns to form, Crede improves a bit, and Gload performs like he did last year, an infield of Crede-Vizquel-Uribe-Gload would be solid, and decent in production. An outfield of Lee-Rowand-Everett would be good - not great - offensively, and would be serviceable defensively inside the Cell. An addition of Varitek would put a quality catcher who has post season experience and a bat behind the plate, and could very well improve how the game is called.

I know everyone is going to jump up and say "hey, this team sucks!" but at the same time, lets be realistic. Forget RJ, forget Beltran, forget Pedro. This is most likely the type of lineup we will see next season in ST and the same type of lineup we will have to get excited about, so we might as well be optimistic.

Vizquel
Rowand
C Lee
Thomas
Varitek
Everett
Crede
Gload
Uribe

It's not the prettiest thing in the world, but there is a legitimate lead-off hitter at the front, OBP and power in the 2-3-4, and a couple guys who could drive in runs following. Crede as always is a question mark, but Gload is worthy of nothing less than a chance following his performance, and Uribe puts speed at the bottom of the order to turn over the lineup. You add a guy like Pavano, Lowe, or Radke in the front end of the roation and pick up a setup man who can close, and a LR/emergency starter like Wilson Alvarez, and this team has a chance.

Thoughts?

hold2dibber
11-05-2004, 09:35 AM
The biggest holes on the 2004 team were the No. 5 starter and the bullpen and those are the holes that should be examined first. The top priority should be getting a No. 1 or 2 starter to push everyone else back and even out the rotation, and after that we need serious help in the back of the bullpen. If JR is planning on raising the payroll enough to be competitive, he needs to raise it enough to fill these needs via free agency, because if they come at the expense of the little offense we have, this team is doomed.

That said, I would propose trading Konerko to anyone who would take him for prospects or bullpen help only, mainly as a salary dump. If you take his salary and put it towards Jason Varitek, as well as get a guy like Vizquel, we won't have all that bad of a team.

As always, everything depends on the health of the team. Assuming Carl Everett returns to form, Crede improves a bit, and Gload performs like he did last year, an infield of Crede-Vizquel-Uribe-Gload would be solid, and decent in production. An outfield of Lee-Rowand-Everett would be good - not great - offensively, and would be serviceable defensively inside the Cell. An addition of Varitek would put a quality catcher who has post season experience and a bat behind the plate, and could very well improve how the game is called.

I know everyone is going to jump up and say "hey, this team sucks!" but at the same time, lets be realistic. Forget RJ, forget Beltran, forget Pedro. This is most likely the type of lineup we will see next season in ST and the same type of lineup we will have to get excited about, so we might as well be optimistic.

Vizquel
Rowand
C Lee
Thomas
Varitek
Everett
Crede
Gload
Uribe

It's not the prettiest thing in the world, but there is a legitimate lead-off hitter at the front, OBP and power in the 2-3-4, and a couple guys who could drive in runs following. Crede as always is a question mark, but Gload is worthy of nothing less than a chance following his performance, and Uribe puts speed at the bottom of the order to turn over the lineup. You add a guy like Pavano, Lowe, or Radke in the front end of the roation and pick up a setup man who can close, and a LR/emergency starter like Wilson Alvarez, and this team has a chance.

Thoughts?
I agree with your general principal - that pitching should be the main priority. But I don't agree with the re-tooling of the lineup. First, I think Varitek is a pipedream. The Red Sox have repeatedly indicated that he is their no. 1 priority this off season. He just one a world championship there, so he's not going to want to leave. If they want him to stay and he wants to stay, he ain't coming here. Second, although the Vizquel signing seems inevitable at this point, I think it's a mistake. The guy is not a leadoff hitter - his OBP the last four years have been .323, .341, .321 and .353 in that order (by way of comparison, Harris was .343 last year and Uribe was .327 - Vizquel would probably be somewhere in between next year). And he'll be 38 next season, so it's more likely that his performance will worsen not improve.

If I was running the show, I'd try to move Konerko and Garland to increase payroll flexibility and add a power bullpen arm and a lead off hitter. Guys I would target would be Ryan Freel of the Reds (.375 OBP, 37 SBs, can play just about any position on the diamond), Juan Pierre (.374 OBP, 45 SBs, rumored to be available), Jason Kendall (.399 OBP, 11 SBs, I'd love to have him if Pittsburgh pays at least 1/2 his contract), Luis Castillo (.373 OBP, 21 SBs in an off year), or possibly Keith Ginter or Junior Spivey of Milwaukee. Bullpen arms I'd be interested in via trade would include Guillermo Mota and B.J. Ryan. Use the money saved on those deals to add TWO starting pitchers and maybe another bullpen arm, and the team is something like this:

Freel 3B
Rowand CF
Thomas DH
Lee LF
Everett RF
Uribe SS
Gload 1B
Davis C
Harris 2B

Rotation:

Garcia
Buehrle
Clement
Radke
Contreras

Bullpen:

Mota
B.J. Ryan
Hammond (FA signee)
Takatsu
Politte
Marte
Diaz

I've left out Crede and Cotts, who probably could be packaged to try to upgrade at 2B or C via trade. The line-up ain't great but its okay and the pitching would be among the best in the league.

misty60481
11-05-2004, 09:37 AM
Dont you think we better wait until we see about Big Franks return before we think about trading PK?? Remember with Maggs, Jose, & PK gone there goes 1/3 of the runs we scored last year, I dont think Gload, Everette, Visquel?, or the others can make up for that kind of offense...We are playing 81 games at the Cell and PK really did his best hitting there..

Dolanski
11-05-2004, 09:47 AM
The biggest holes on the 2004 team were the No. 5 starter and the bullpen and those are the holes that should be examined first. The top priority should be getting a No. 1 or 2 starter to push everyone else back and even out the rotation, and after that we need serious help in the back of the bullpen. If JR is planning on raising the payroll enough to be competitive, he needs to raise it enough to fill these needs via free agency, because if they come at the expense of the little offense we have, this team is doomed.

That said, I would propose trading Konerko to anyone who would take him for prospects or bullpen help only, mainly as a salary dump. If you take his salary and put it towards Jason Varitek, as well as get a guy like Vizquel, we won't have all that bad of a team.

As always, everything depends on the health of the team. Assuming Carl Everett returns to form, Crede improves a bit, and Gload performs like he did last year, an infield of Crede-Vizquel-Uribe-Gload would be solid, and decent in production. An outfield of Lee-Rowand-Everett would be good - not great - offensively, and would be serviceable defensively inside the Cell. An addition of Varitek would put a quality catcher who has post season experience and a bat behind the plate, and could very well improve how the game is called.

I know everyone is going to jump up and say "hey, this team sucks!" but at the same time, lets be realistic. Forget RJ, forget Beltran, forget Pedro. This is most likely the type of lineup we will see next season in ST and the same type of lineup we will have to get excited about, so we might as well be optimistic.

Vizquel
Rowand
C Lee
Thomas
Varitek
Everett
Crede
Gload
Uribe

It's not the prettiest thing in the world, but there is a legitimate lead-off hitter at the front, OBP and power in the 2-3-4, and a couple guys who could drive in runs following. Crede as always is a question mark, but Gload is worthy of nothing less than a chance following his performance, and Uribe puts speed at the bottom of the order to turn over the lineup. You add a guy like Pavano, Lowe, or Radke in the front end of the roation and pick up a setup man who can close, and a LR/emergency starter like Wilson Alvarez, and this team has a chance.

Thoughts?


I think you are right about the starters and bullpen, but I think the idea that we would get Varitek is obsurd. He is Boston's number one priority, and they will give him around the same contract as Posada has. In other words, top tier catcher money. Also, he has said he really wants to return to the Red Sox. Furthermore, I think we are better off with the two headed catching monster of Ben Davis and Jamie Burke. I think that Kenny believes Ben Davis will be worthy of his first round selection a few years back if he gets the chance to play everyday (a la Paul Konerko). I think that is the Sox plan and I agree with it. Davis looked decent when he played alot. He is worth a shot. And even if he ends up hitting like Karkovice back in the day, he is still very solid defensively. If the Sox are going to spend money on a free agent, they should get an outfielder.

Speaking of outfield, is anyone else scared of the thoughts of Crazy Carl and Joe Borchard manning right next year? I know I am. Joe has too many holes in his swing, and Carl is too old and oft injured to play OF every day. Also, I don't think Carl has the fire anymore. He looked dead last season. I have read that Colorado has been trying to move Preston Wilson. I believe Kenny has liked him in the past, but he is another guy so fragile, he could pull a hamstring getting out of the car. Still, any thoughts on Preston Wilson as the new RF while we await the emergence of Borchard or Sweeney???

As for trading Konerko, it does make sense economically. His stock is really high right now, but I would still be sad to see him go. He is the leader of that team. With Jose most likely going as well, that clubhouse might fall into total disarray... Also, while I like Ross Gload, I like Ross Gload as a backup first basemen. Regardless of the speed and defense movement the team is going to undertake, you are still going to need some pop in that lineup and I don't see Ross putting up 30HR 120RBI seasons.

samram
11-05-2004, 09:50 AM
I agree with your general principal - that pitching should be the main priority. But I don't agree with the re-tooling of the lineup. First, I think Varitek is a pipedream. The Red Sox have repeatedly indicated that he is their no. 1 priority this off season. He just one a world championship there, so he's not going to want to leave. If they want him to stay and he wants to stay, he ain't coming here. Second, although the Vizquel signing seems inevitable at this point, I think it's a mistake. The guy is not a leadoff hitter - his OBP the last four years have been .323, .341, .321 and .353 in that order (by way of comparison, Harris was .343 last year and Uribe was .327 - Vizquel would probably be somewhere in between next year). And he'll be 38 next season, so it's more likely that his performance will worsen not improve.

If I was running the show, I'd try to move Konerko and Garland to increase payroll flexibility and add a power bullpen arm and a lead off hitter. Guys I would target would be Ryan Freel of the Reds (.375 OBP, 37 SBs, can play just about any position on the diamond), Juan Pierre (.374 OBP, 45 SBs, rumored to be available), Jason Kendall (.399 OBP, 11 SBs, I'd love to have him if Pittsburgh pays at least 1/2 his contract), Luis Castillo (.373 OBP, 21 SBs in an off year), or possibly Keith Ginter or Junior Spivey of Milwaukee. Bullpen arms I'd be interested in via trade would include Guillermo Mota and B.J. Ryan. Use the money saved on those deals to add TWO starting pitchers and maybe another bullpen arm, and the team is something like this:

Freel 3B
Rowand CF
Thomas DH
Lee LF
Everett RF
Uribe SS
Gload 1B
Davis C
Harris 2B

Rotation:

Garcia
Buehrle
Clement
Radke
Contreras

Bullpen:

Mota
B.J. Ryan
Hammond (FA signee)
Takatsu
Politte
Marte
Diaz

I've left out Crede and Cotts, who probably could be packaged to try to upgrade at 2B or C via trade. The line-up ain't great but its okay and the pitching would be among the best in the league.
I like most of your ideas, but I don't agree with Clement. He's an arm injury in waiting and supposedly not a great guy in the clubhouse.

I like the idea of using Crede or Cotts (or both) to shore up holes, especially at catcher. I wonder if they could get Ramon Hernandez from San Diego if they decide to go with Quintero next year.

hold2dibber
11-05-2004, 01:41 PM
I like most of your ideas, but I don't agree with Clement. He's an arm injury in waiting and supposedly not a great guy in the clubhouse.

I like the idea of using Crede or Cotts (or both) to shore up holes, especially at catcher. I wonder if they could get Ramon Hernandez from San Diego if they decide to go with Quintero next year.
I hear you; I waiver on Clement for that very reason. If healthy, I think he'd be a fantastic pick-up; but I know that's a big if. If not Clement (and I'm not including Pavano in the discussion because as much as I like him, I think he's going to get more $ than he's worth on the open market), the other FA guys who might be worth a shot also have some questions - e.g., Milwood, Lowe, O. Perez. Not sure who among those (or the others) I would target.

samram
11-05-2004, 01:48 PM
I hear you; I waiver on Clement for that very reason. If healthy, I think he'd be a fantastic pick-up; but I know that's a big if. If not Clement (and I'm not including Pavano in the discussion because as much as I like him, I think he's going to get more $ than he's worth on the open market), the other FA guys who might be worth a shot also have some questions - e.g., Milwood, Lowe, O. Perez. Not sure who among those (or the others) I would target.
Yeah, it's an odd FA SP class because most of the guys had good years or have been very good in the past, but there's health questions (Millwood, Clement), consistency questions (Pavano, Lowe), and park adjustment questions (Perez). Still, any of them is better than any fifth starter option currently on the roster, and they're all better than Contreras. My pick of those guys would be Perez over Lowe, and I can't even say why that is, maybe just to have another lefty.

I would love to have Radke over any of them.

hitlesswonder
11-05-2004, 02:30 PM
I Furthermore, I think we are better off with the two headed catching monster of Ben Davis and Jamie Burke. I think that Kenny believes Ben Davis will be worthy of his first round selection a few years back if he gets the chance to play everyday (a la Paul Konerko). I think that is the Sox plan and I agree with it. Davis looked decent when he played alot. He is worth a shot. And even if he ends up hitting like Karkovice back in the day, he is still very solid defensively. If the Sox are going to spend money on a free agent, they should get an outfielder.

Do your really think the Sox are better off with Davis/Burke than Varitek? I agree, he's probably out of the Sox price range, but he's good and and I don't think Davis is. Davis has gotten the chance to play everyday at San Diego and Seattle. At best, he's a .230 hitter with a .300 OBP and .670 OPS. He has surprisingly little power. At worst, which is what Seattle saw the 2nd half of 2003 and the start of 2004, he's a sub-.200 hitter. He's had 1500 major league at-bats, so I'll be surprised if he breaks out now. Also, I think his defense is over-rated (I admit I know little about catching, so I could be wrong). It doesn't look to me like he moves well behind the plate, and I think blocking balls and catching fouls is more important than throwing (at least in today's AL). And it's not like his arm is in the class of Geronimo Gil or the old Ivan Rodriguez. Plus I don't think he calls his own games (although I could be wrong).

Anyway, overpriced as he may be, I wouldn't be upset if the Sox signed Varitek (I know it won't happen). But if they want to go cheap I'd rather see them try and get Zaun or Mirabelli or Redmond than resign Davis.

Ol' No. 2
11-05-2004, 02:40 PM
Yeah, it's an odd FA SP class because most of the guys had good years or have been very good in the past, but there's health questions (Millwood, Clement), consistency questions (Pavano, Lowe), and park adjustment questions (Perez). Still, any of them is better than any fifth starter option currently on the roster, and they're all better than Contreras. My pick of those guys would be Perez over Lowe, and I can't even say why that is, maybe just to have another lefty.

I would love to have Radke over any of them.Radke hasn't exactly been a model of consistency over the years, either. And don't get wowed by Lowe's WS performance. He's been slipping pretty badly since his one good year as a starter. Ortiz gets my vote. Six straight years of 200+ IP with 4 of those six below 4.0 ERA.

hitlesswonder
11-05-2004, 02:49 PM
Yeah, it's an odd FA SP class because most of the guys had good years or have been very good in the past, but there's health questions (Millwood, Clement), consistency questions (Pavano, Lowe), and park adjustment questions (Perez). Still, any of them is better than any fifth starter option currently on the roster, and they're all better than Contreras. My pick of those guys would be Perez over Lowe, and I can't even say why that is, maybe just to have another lefty.

I would love to have Radke over any of them.
I agree about the FA SP class. It sounds like the Sox want to trdae for a starter rather than buy one, but I was hoping that some of the question marks would drive price down. I'd like to see the Sox roll the dice on someone assuming that happens.

Perez actually had lower ERA away from LA last year (3.21 vs. 3.31), although he did give up more 2B and HR on the road. I wouldn't mind signing him (he's 27, so hopefully entering a good run barring injury), but his price might be too high -- he may be the best lefty FA.

I like Radke a lot, too. Taking him from the Twins would be great, and I love the idea of a pitcher who throws strikes. But last year was his best in a long time. I'm not sure his typical performance comes close to matching the money he would command. ERA's for the the last few years:
4.45, 3.94, 4.72, 4.49, 3.48

Ol' No. 2
11-05-2004, 02:52 PM
I agree about the FA SP class. It sounds like the Sox want to trdae for a starter rather than buy one, but I was hoping that some of the question marks would drive price down. I'd like to see the Sox roll the dice on someone assuming that happens.

Perez actually had lower ERA away from LA last year (3.21 vs. 3.31), although he did give up more 2B and HR on the road. I wouldn't mind signing him (he's 27, so hopefully entering a good run barring injury), but his price might be too high -- he may be the best lefty FA.

I like Radke a lot, too. Taking him from the Twins would be great, and I love the idea of a pitcher who throws strikes. But last year was his best in a long time. I'm not sure his typical performance comes close to matching the money he would command. ERA's for the the last few years:
4.45, 3.94, 4.72, 4.49, 3.48All the more reason to forget the FA pitchers and just get Randy.

Dolanski
11-05-2004, 03:10 PM
Do your really think the Sox are better off with Davis/Burke than Varitek? I agree, he's probably out of the Sox price range, but he's good and and I don't think Davis is. Davis has gotten the chance to play everyday at San Diego and Seattle. At best, he's a .230 hitter with a .300 OBP and .670 OPS. He has surprisingly little power. At worst, which is what Seattle saw the 2nd half of 2003 and the start of 2004, he's a sub-.200 hitter. He's had 1500 major league at-bats, so I'll be surprised if he breaks out now. Also, I think his defense is over-rated (I admit I know little about catching, so I could be wrong). It doesn't look to me like he moves well behind the plate, and I think blocking balls and catching fouls is more important than throwing (at least in today's AL). And it's not like his arm is in the class of Geronimo Gil or the old Ivan Rodriguez. Plus I don't think he calls his own games (although I could be wrong).

Anyway, overpriced as he may be, I wouldn't be upset if the Sox signed Varitek (I know it won't happen). But if they want to go cheap I'd rather see them try and get Zaun or Mirabelli or Redmond than resign Davis.


Of course V-Tek would be the awesome to have (Tek is a Beast as the Tshirt sold around Fenway say...), but I just know it isn't going to happen. The Red Sox NEED him as they have no other catchers anywhere and there are no decent catchers on the market besides him. I think the Sox feel the Davis Burke two headed monster is sufficient and are probably going to concentrate on pitching and 2b/SS or another OF. I guess I have been a Sox fan too long because I am just a realist about this stuff...

I like what I saw of Ben Davis last year, and when the deal was made I had a strong feeling that the Sox saw something in him to trade Olivo. Maybe I am giving the scouting dept too much credit here, but they did see something in PK when everyone else gave up on him, as well as Uribe, Valentin, Gload and Timo. OK, the last two are role players but they still kinda count. I just feel that they have been right on some of their gambles in the past and Davis smells of another KW diamond in the rough...

On a side note, the Burke Davis catching monstrocity sounds similar to the Luc Longley/Bill Wennington/Will Perdue three-headed monster for the Bulls in the mid 90s.

samram
11-05-2004, 03:17 PM
Radke hasn't exactly been a model of consistency over the years, either. And don't get wowed by Lowe's WS performance. He's been slipping pretty badly since his one good year as a starter. Ortiz gets my vote. Six straight years of 200+ IP with 4 of those six below 4.0 ERA.I'm not really wowed with Lowe, I would just rank him second among the guys mentioned. We don't know if he would be the 20 game winner or the guy with the 5+ ERA. As for Ortiz, the problem for him could be giving up homeruns.

jabrch
11-05-2004, 03:32 PM
The Varitek estimates I have seen are 10mm per for 4 years. I'd rather spend that on a SP. If we do, and have another 10mm left, I'd spend it on a RPs. If we STILL had 10mm left after that, I'd rather spend it on another SP or to upgrade SS from Vizquel to a higher end option

I don't have a problem rolling the dice with the Davis/Burke platoon if it means adding more SPs and RPs and a better SS.

Ol' No. 2
11-05-2004, 03:32 PM
I'm not really wowed with Lowe, I would just rank him second among the guys mentioned. We don't know if he would be the 20 game winner or the guy with the 5+ ERA. As for Ortiz, the problem for him could be giving up homeruns.And Ortiz gives up too many walks. That's the problem. The more I look at these FA pitchers, the less enthusiastic I am. There are warts on all these guys. Just get RJ and be done with it. If it's true he has $6M deferred and there are no easter eggs in his contract, he'll be no more expensive than Pavano or Ortiz. If they can't get him, try to swing a trade for Hudson.

Ol' No. 2
11-05-2004, 03:33 PM
The Varitek estimates I have seen are 10mm per for 4 years. I'd rather spend that on a SP. If we do, and have another 10mm left, I'd spend it on a RPs. If we STILL had 10mm left after that, I'd rather spend it on another SP or to upgrade SS from Vizquel to a higher end option

I don't have a problem rolling the dice with the Davis/Burke platoon if it means adding more SPs and RPs and a better SS.And if they STILL have another $10M left, they should just lower the price of the beer.:bandance:

hitlesswonder
11-05-2004, 03:40 PM
I like what I saw of Ben Davis last year, and when the deal was made I had a strong feeling that the Sox saw something in him to trade Olivo. Maybe I am giving the scouting dept too much credit here, but they did see something in PK when everyone else gave up on him, as well as Uribe, Valentin, Gload and Timo.
As I guess you can tell, I wasn't wildly impressed by Davis. Outside of his hot streak, he looked bad at the plate and ended up hitting around .230 something for the Sox. Still, I certainly hope you're right.

When Konerko came to the Sox, he had fewer than 500 ABs at the major league level. I'm worried that Davis is more like Perez, who has over 1000 ABs with a career OPS of .690 and an outsized defensive reputation from what I saw (although maybe that was just his foot injury).

Anyway, picking up Konerko, Uribe, Valentin, and Gload were all good moves. Hopefully the Sox choice at catcher will be too.

hitlesswonder
11-05-2004, 03:55 PM
The Varitek estimates I have seen are 10mm per for 4 years. I'd rather spend that on a SP. If we do, and have another 10mm left, I'd spend it on a RPs. If we STILL had 10mm left after that, I'd rather spend it on another SP or to upgrade SS from Vizquel to a higher end option

I don't have a problem rolling the dice with the Davis/Burke platoon if it means adding more SPs and RPs and a better SS.
Oh, I agree (at least till the SS upgrade part...). I think the biggest need is SP and RP. It's just that if the Sox were to make a move and spend too much money on a position player, I wouldn't mind it being Varitek (assuming that Beltran and Beltre are still too expensive at that). Catcher is such a hard position to fill, the Sox only good prospect at C was at rookie ball, and at the major league level it is the biggest hole in the lineup IMO. But, yeah...pitching, pitching,pitching....

Dan Gelo
11-05-2004, 06:41 PM
What you guys don't think Alex Escobar is the answer?:roflmao:


:LTP
We're gonna look great together out there.:mad:

lowesox
11-06-2004, 10:52 AM
I think this team should concentrate on strengthening up the middle first, the starting rotation second, and the pitching third. I hate playing GM because there are so many variables you never know about, but I'd so something like:

NO. 1 PRIORITY: SIGN either Christian Guzman or Edgar Renteria
NO. 2 PRIORITY: SIGN one of Carl Pavano, Derek Lowe or Matt Morris
NO. 3 PRIORITY: TRADE Konerko for a young catcher
NO. 4 PRIORITY: TRADE Buerle for top prospects

THEN
SIGN a serviceable number 5 pitcher
ACQUIRE Dave Roberts to play CF - move Rowand to right
SIGN a few solid veteran bullpen arms (guys like Bradford, Osuna, Nelson or Benitez if there's enough $)


Basically, the idea is to spread the money around more

hold2dibber
11-06-2004, 11:47 AM
I think this team should concentrate on strengthening up the middle first, the starting rotation second, and the pitching third. I hate playing GM because there are so many variables you never know about, but I'd so something like:

NO. 1 PRIORITY: SIGN either Christian Guzman or Edgar Renteria
NO. 2 PRIORITY: SIGN one of Carl Pavano, Derek Lowe or Matt Morris
NO. 3 PRIORITY: TRADE Konerko for a young catcher
NO. 4 PRIORITY: TRADE Buerle for top prospects

THEN
SIGN a serviceable number 5 pitcher
ACQUIRE Dave Roberts to play CF - move Rowand to right
SIGN a few solid veteran bullpen arms (guys like Bradford, Osuna, Nelson or Benitez if there's enough $)

Basically, the idea is to spread the money around more
I don't get where strengthening the team up the middle is no. 1; and Christian Guzman would NOT strengthen the team up the middle anyway. He's Juan Uribe without the power. He is decent fielder who can't hit at ALL. Just horrible. There's no reason to go anywhere near that guy. And why in God's name are you trading Buehrle for prospects when you admit that the starting rotation needs to be bolstered? I like the spread the money around idea, but I think your plan would spread money around without making the team any better - and probably making it worse.

Dolanski
11-06-2004, 12:23 PM
I think this team should concentrate on strengthening up the middle first, the starting rotation second, and the pitching third. I hate playing GM because there are so many variables you never know about, but I'd so something like:

NO. 1 PRIORITY: SIGN either Christian Guzman or Edgar Renteria
NO. 2 PRIORITY: SIGN one of Carl Pavano, Derek Lowe or Matt Morris
NO. 3 PRIORITY: TRADE Konerko for a young catcher
NO. 4 PRIORITY: TRADE Buerle for top prospects

THEN
SIGN a serviceable number 5 pitcher
ACQUIRE Dave Roberts to play CF - move Rowand to right
SIGN a few solid veteran bullpen arms (guys like Bradford, Osuna, Nelson or Benitez if there's enough $)


Basically, the idea is to spread the money around more


Buerhle is not going to be traded. He is signed for two more years, and is still arbitration eligible. Translation: Good young pitcher on the relatively cheap. You don't trade guys like that, especially not with White Sox Economics.

jordan23ventura
11-06-2004, 05:02 PM
Buerhle is not going to be traded. He is signed for two more years, and is still arbitration eligible. Translation: Good young pitcher on the relatively cheap. You don't trade guys like that, especially not with White Sox Economics.
There would be no reason to trade Buerhle, Rowand, or Uribe IMO unless this entire team was getting overhauled. Still, if that were the case, those are the guys I'd want to keep to build around anyway.

DVsoxfan
11-06-2004, 05:12 PM
I'll take a pass on Morris...too many HR. He'll throw upwards of 50 HR next yr if he's pitching for us at the cell.

CWSGuy406
11-06-2004, 06:36 PM
I think this team should concentrate on strengthening up the middle first, the starting rotation second, and the pitching third. I hate playing GM because there are so many variables you never know about, but I'd so something like:

NO. 1 PRIORITY: SIGN either Christian Guzman or Edgar Renteria
NO. 2 PRIORITY: SIGN one of Carl Pavano, Derek Lowe or Matt Morris
NO. 3 PRIORITY: TRADE Konerko for a young catcher
NO. 4 PRIORITY: TRADE Buerle for top prospects

THEN
SIGN a serviceable number 5 pitcher
ACQUIRE Dave Roberts to play CF - move Rowand to right
SIGN a few solid veteran bullpen arms (guys like Bradford, Osuna, Nelson or Benitez if there's enough $)


Basically, the idea is to spread the money around more
If Kenny were to deal Buehrle, he's dumber than I thought...

Tragg
11-06-2004, 08:50 PM
If I was running the show, I'd try to move Konerko and Garland to increase payroll flexibility and add a power bullpen arm and a lead off hitter. Guys I would target would be Ryan Freel of the Reds (.375 OBP, 37 SBs, can play just about any position on the diamond), Juan Pierre (.374 OBP, 45 SBs, rumored to be available), Jason Kendall (.399 OBP, 11 SBs, I'd love to have him if Pittsburgh pays at least 1/2 his contract), Luis Castillo (.373 OBP, 21 SBs in an off year), or possibly Keith Ginter or Junior Spivey of Milwaukee. Bullpen arms I'd be interested in via trade would include Guillermo Mota and B.J. Ryan. Use the money saved on those deals to add TWO starting pitchers and maybe another bullpen arm, and the team is something like this:

Freel 3B
Rowand CF
Thomas DH
Lee LF
Everett RF
Uribe SS
Gload 1B
Davis C
Harris 2B

Rotation:

Garcia
Buehrle
Clement
Radke
Contreras

Bullpen:

Mota
B.J. Ryan
Hammond (FA signee)
Takatsu
Politte
Marte
Diaz

I've left out Crede and Cotts, who probably could be packaged to try to upgrade at 2B or C via trade. The line-up ain't great but its okay and the pitching would be among the best in the league.I wouldn't spend the money on Radke; Clement is interesting. We could sign any of several pitchers in that 6MM range.

Garland's fine as a fifth starter - fifth starters don't pitch in the playoffs (as starters at least) so I wouldn't spend a pile on a 5th starter. No defensive improvement under your plan - need a CF and move Rowand to right I guess and get Everett out of there. Need a leadoff hitter, too. Mr Pierre are you available?

So as I see it, we need:
A starter
2 Bullpen Arms
Right fielder
Lead-off hitter
Defensive help at ss and/or CF

I think we can come close to getting that:
Sign a starter
Trade Konerko for Pierre
sign a reliever
Package prospects for a reliever
Move the fences back

That would make us a better team, imo

johnny_mostil
11-06-2004, 11:17 PM
Speaking of outfield, is anyone else scared of the thoughts of Crazy Carl and Joe Borchard manning right next year? I know I am. Joe has too many holes in his swing, and Carl is too old and oft injured to play OF every day.
I'd be willing to bet Alex Escobar gets a shot at the job. He's Venezuelan, fast, and multi-talented. I don't know if he'll stay healthy or produce, but he's probably a better bet than LTP at this point.

Ol' No. 2
11-07-2004, 01:17 AM
I'd be willing to bet Alex Escobar gets a shot at the job. He's Venezuelan, fast, and multi-talented. I don't know if he'll stay healthy or produce, but he's probably a better bet than LTP at this point.I'm going to be really interested to see what Escobar has. Most everyone here seems to be dismissing him, but he was one of the Mets top prospects, and the Indians really wanted him in the Robbie deal. He just never seems able to stay healthy.

jabrch
11-07-2004, 10:57 AM
Anyone have any word on Escobar's knees? Last I heard, right around when we got him, was that a lot of people don't think he will ever be able to play at the highest level due to his knees.

Ol' No. 2
11-07-2004, 11:48 AM
Anyone have any word on Escobar's knees? Last I heard, right around when we got him, was that a lot of people don't think he will ever be able to play at the highest level due to his knees.Knees??? I've never heard anything about his knees. He had a fractured navicular in his ankle when they got him.

jabrch
11-07-2004, 11:59 AM
Knees??? I've never heard anything about his knees. He had a fractured navicular in his ankle when they got him.


Am I confusing Escobar for someone else? I thought his acension to greatness with Cleveland/NYM was sidetracked by a colossal knee injury he suffered from taking out a wall. I know his CURRENT injury was an ankle, but that's not what his major one from 2002 was, right? There was, as I recall, worry that the knee will never enable him to be the player he could have been... (UNLESS I AM TOTALLY MAKING THIS UP...)

SOXSINCE'70
11-07-2004, 12:52 PM
NO. 1 PRIORITY: SIGN either Christian Guzman or Edgar Renteria
NO. 2 PRIORITY: SIGN one of Carl Pavano, Derek Lowe or Matt Morris
NO. 3 PRIORITY: TRADE Konerko for a young catcher
NO. 4 PRIORITY: TRADE Buerle for top prospects

THEN
SIGN a serviceable number 5 pitcher
ACQUIRE Dave Roberts to play CF - move Rowand to right
SIGN a few solid veteran bullpen arms (guys like Bradford, Osuna, Nelson or Benitez if there's enough $)

1.Guzman may be overrated,Renteria will be a Card again.
2.Pavano or Lowe,yes.Matt Morris?? Are you crazy??
He lost too much velocity last year and gave up a ton of
gopher balls.I'd stay away from Morris.
3.Yes,we agree here.
4.ARE YOU CRAZY?!?! You don't trade Beuhrle now.
Too risky.I can't do it.

I agree with all your "THEN" points as well. :gulp: :gulp:

jabrch
11-07-2004, 01:17 PM
Dave Roberts? He can't hit his way out of a paper bag. There is a reason no team that has had this guy ever let him start every day. Oh - and if there is a lefty on the mound...forget him.

Dave Roberts, if allowed to play every day, would probably be nearly a wash with Willie Harris if he were allowed to play every day. In fact, in 2004, Harris numbers were significantly better in terms of avg and obp. No thanks - I'll pass on Dave Roberts. If we aren't improving over Aaron Rowand, why move him out of CF? If we are going to do that - and do it on the cheap, Willie is no worse than Roberts, or any other similar player who is available.

MisterB
11-07-2004, 07:18 PM
Am I confusing Escobar for someone else? I thought his acension to greatness with Cleveland/NYM was sidetracked by a colossal knee injury he suffered from taking out a wall. I know his CURRENT injury was an ankle, but that's not what his major one from 2002 was, right? There was, as I recall, worry that the knee will never enable him to be the player he could have been... (UNLESS I AM TOTALLY MAKING THIS UP...)
No confusion. Escobar had reconstructive knee surgery in 2002 after running into the CF wall during a spring training game.