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View Full Version : El Caballo Snubbed for Gold Glove


stl_sox_fan
11-03-2004, 12:53 PM
Gold glove awards handed out yesterday.

Caballo had a perfect fielding %, 11 Assists and was part of 2 double plays. But yet these guys get gold gloves.

V Wells(1 error, 5 Assists)
T Hunter(4 errors, 5 Assists)
Ichiro(3 errors, 3 Assists)

What gives?



http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/6161.jpg
What about me???

jabrch
11-03-2004, 01:00 PM
Um - those 3 are far superior (like WORLDS SUPERIOR) defensively to Carlos. Errors and assists are not sufficient alone to judge an OF.

Iwritecode
11-03-2004, 01:12 PM
Gold glove awards handed out yesterday.

Caballo had a perfect fielding %, 11 Assists and was part of 2 double plays. But yet these guys get gold gloves.

V Wells(1 error, 5 Assists)
T Hunter(4 errors, 5 Assists)
Ichiro(3 errors, 3 Assists)

What gives?



http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/6161.jpg
What about me???



Jeter got one too...

What's you're point?

JB98
11-03-2004, 01:38 PM
I commend El Caballo because he is much-improved as an outfielder. He was an absolute butcher when he first broke into the big leagues. He's obviously worked at it, and he does a pretty nice job for us now. However, I think it would be homerism to suggest he is one of the top three defensive outfielders in the AL. Regardless of the statistics, I think the three players that were chosen are all better defensive players than CLee.

Over By There
11-03-2004, 01:47 PM
I never thought I'd hear Carlos mentioned in the same breath with "Gold Glove." He must be improving. :cool:

stl_sox_fan
11-03-2004, 01:48 PM
Um - those 3 are far superior (like WORLDS SUPERIOR) defensively to Carlos. Errors and assists are not sufficient alone to judge an OF.
Emmm, okay what is the judging criteria then? Only if you make SportsCenter worthy catches(ala Edmonds and Andruw Jones)? That's like saying the person who hits the most homeruns gets the home run title, as long as he has a great home run trot.

I_Liked_Manuel
11-03-2004, 01:48 PM
it's not a difficult task to not have any errors when you don't cover too much ground

munchman33
11-03-2004, 01:51 PM
:threadsucks

I give it to Caballo for making himself a servicable defensive outfielder who doesn't make any mistakes. But to put him in the same breath defensively as those other guys is utterly ridiculous.

hold2dibber
11-03-2004, 01:54 PM
Emmm, okay what is the judging criteria then? Only if you make SportsCenter worthy catches(ala Edmonds and Andruw Jones)? That's like saying the person who hits the most homeruns gets the home run title, as long as he has a great home run trot.
Carlos has made great strides and I view him as an above average defensive LF'er now. But the guys who won the GGs all cover WAY more ground than Carlos. Also, especially with respect to Ichiro, his assist numbers aren't huge because no other even bothers to run on him.

The White Sox who got jobbed, in my humble (and admittedly biased) opinion, was Buehrle. The guy gets to everything AND he has a great pick-off move that entirely thwarts the other team's running game. He's the best in the league by far, from what I've seen (and I admit I've seen a lot more of him than anyone else).

jabrch
11-03-2004, 01:56 PM
Emmm, okay what is the judging criteria then? Only if you make SportsCenter worthy catches(ala Edmonds and Andruw Jones)? That's like saying the person who hits the most homeruns gets the home run title, as long as he has a great home run trot.
I'm sorry - I missed the point where anyone mentioned anything about sportscenter worthy catches. Oh wait...that's cuz nobody did.

Rocklive99
11-03-2004, 02:04 PM
That's bs, wasn't Wells injured for like 3/5 of the season?

NonetheLoaiza
11-03-2004, 02:07 PM
carlos did nothing extraordinary to deserve a gold glove. you dont just give out gold gloves because someone had no errors. how many times this year did torri hunter's glove save or win a game for the twins? i remember 2 specific times where if he had not made a catch, the other team would have won. you cant argue with that.

LAWSfan
11-03-2004, 02:11 PM
One other thing, Carlos had a lot more assists because runners, ran on him. They took changes. Ichiro and Hunter? Nobody dare run on their arms. So they have less chances for assists.

Hangar18
11-03-2004, 02:23 PM
carlos did nothing extraordinary to deserve a gold glove. you dont just give out gold gloves because someone had no errors. how many times this year did torri hunter's glove save or win a game for the twins? i remember 2 specific times where if he had not made a catch, the other team would have won. you cant argue with that.
Wait a minute ...... I thought ZERO errors meant you were getting a Gold Glove?
So if Frank Thomas hits 51 Homers next year, and Manny Ramirez hits 45 Homers, we should just give the Home Run Crown to Manny anyway, because
he always hits them? Or he hits them Farther? Or his Homers meant
something? Caballo should have a Gold Glove.

PavanoBeltran'05
11-03-2004, 02:33 PM
I hate to go back to Moneyball, but they make good points on this subject. That's why they came up with a new system to judge outfielders.
Guy A has more range and can actually get to a lot more balls over the course of the year. He may take some chances at some tough balls that Guy B can't even get to. There are the extra errors. Now, does Guy B deserve more credit because he got to less balls and had less errors?? No. People look at that kind of thing. One poster also had it right on the assist category. Ichiro won't get as many assists because runners learned in his rookie year that going first to third on him isn't smart, not to mention going home.

So, yeah, Carlos made some great plays this year. That is great for the Sox, but maybe (just maybe) some of those tough looking plays may have been easier for a better outfielder due to the jump he gets, etc. I love Carlos and I think he's getting a whole lot better in the field, but he's not quite GG material.

Hangar18
11-03-2004, 02:42 PM
Um - those 3 are far superior (like WORLDS SUPERIOR) defensively to Carlos. Errors and assists are not sufficient alone to judge an OF.

:tool " Hangar, he is right about that. The old regime
used to award Gold Gloves simply by going with Error & Assist Statistics,
but I decided we needed something more Fair & Balanced, so that the
right players will be recognized, for the right reasons. So weve
established the following Criteria to help us in the awarding of the Gold
Gloves. Next year, we will be Awarding Gold GLoves to National
League Players only, and the Pittsburgh Pirates, in order to better showcase these fine players to their home fans .......

*Errors
*Assists
*40 Yd Dash Time
*Number of times Player left his feet to make catch
*Number ot times Player made catch and crowd cheered
*Number of times Player was on ESPN

NonetheLoaiza
11-03-2004, 02:46 PM
Wait a minute ...... I thought ZERO errors meant you were getting a Gold Glove?

So if Frank Thomas hits 51 Homers next year, and Manny Ramirez hits 45 Homers, we should just give the Home Run Crown to Manny anyway, because
he always hits them? Or he hits them Farther? Or his Homers meant
something? Caballo should have a Gold Glove.
the main criteria for winning the home run title is hitting the most home runs. its not so simple with something like a gold glove. if no errors was the sole criteria, theoretically a 500 lb man sitting on stool can win a gold glove because he has little chances to make an error.

jabrch
11-03-2004, 02:50 PM
:tool " Hangar, he is right about that. The old regime
used to award Gold Gloves simply by going with Error & Assist Statistics,
but I decided we needed something more Fair & Balanced, so that the
right players will be recognized, for the right reasons. So weve
established the following Criteria to help us in the awarding of the Gold
Gloves. Next year, we will be Awarding Gold GLoves to National
League Players only, and the Pittsburgh Pirates, in order to better showcase these fine players to their home fans .......

*Errors
*Assists
*40 Yd Dash Time
*Number of times Player left his feet to make catch
*Number ot times Player made catch and crowd cheered
*Number of times Player was on ESPN
Another stellar post Hangar. Never mind facts - just run your negativism, anti-bud and anti-JR feelings up the flagpole.

Hangar18
11-03-2004, 02:57 PM
the main criteria for winning the home run title is hitting the most home runs. its not so simple with something like a gold glove. if no errors was the sole criteria, theoretically a 500 lb man sitting on stool can win a gold glove because he has little chances to make an error.
point taken ..............im laughing my Butt off at this though ....heh hehehhe

Hangar18
11-03-2004, 03:04 PM
Another stellar post Hangar. Never mind facts - just run your negativism, anti-bud and anti-JR feelings up the flagpole.
you know what though ...... I think Im right about this. Let me ask this first though, was Carlos Lee the ONLY guy in the AL to NOT have any errors?
If so ........ Youve got to give him a Gold Glove. What else does he have to do?
Put lights in his shoes? Wear Cool Shades? Its not like he got lucky with
a lot of his play, the guy did super this year. How many Awesome catches
did he make this year? I can name a few ...... Fact is, the guy had ZERO
errors, how can that NOT be awarded or recognized ? Personally,
I think if we werent in the middle of Cubbie Camelot, the Media may have recognized him a bit more, and we'd be starting threads congratulationg
Caballo on his Gold Glove. I guess we have to estimate that this is partly a
popularity contest too.

Oh well, Congrats CABALLO, Your a Gold Glover in my heart buddy. Hopefully, we can give him a Nice round of Applause when he goes
to LF next year. Nice job Bud.

jabrch
11-03-2004, 03:08 PM
you know what though ...... I think Im right about this. Let me ask this first though, was Carlos Lee the ONLY guy in the AL to NOT have any errors?
If so ........ Youve got to give him a Gold Glove. What else does he have to do?
Put lights in his shoes? Wear Cool Shades? Its not like he got lucky with
a lot of his play, the guy did super this year. How many Awesome catches
did he make this year? I can name a few ...... Fact is, the guy had ZERO
errors, how can that NOT be awarded or recognized ? Personally,
I think if we werent in the middle of Cubbie Camelot, the Media may have recognized him a bit more, and we'd be starting threads congratulationg
Caballo on his Gold Glove. I guess we have to estimate that this is partly a
popularity contest too.

Oh well, Congrats CABALLO, Your a Gold Glover in my heart buddy. Hopefully, we can give him a Nice round of Applause when he goes
to LF next year. Nice job Bud.
The Cubs media bias is the reason Carlos Lee didn't win a Gold Glove? OMG...

Hangar18
11-03-2004, 03:12 PM
The Cubs media bias is the reason Carlos Lee didn't win a Gold Glove? OMG...
Dont underestimate the power of the Media and how they can influence
Perceptions. I think If the Cubune talked about how Stellar Caballo was all season, it mightve tipped Buds scale in Lees favor. The Chicago Media
had more pressing work to do this year though ........ like covering up
murders, finding out Ligues next court date, and what lineup to put
out in October .....

Magglio is basically unknown outside Chicago ........

santo=dorf
11-03-2004, 03:14 PM
Oh well, Congrats CABALLO, Your a Gold Glover in my heart buddy. Hopefully, we can give him a Nice round of Applause when he goes
to LF next year. Nice job Bud.
:reinsy
"Who says he's playing LF for us next year Hangar?"

soxfan26
11-03-2004, 03:15 PM
Dont underestimate the power of the Media and how they can influence
Perceptions. I think If the Cubune talked about how Stellar Caballo was all season, it mightve tipped Buds scale in Lees favor. The Chicago Media
had more pressing work to do this year though ........ like covering up
murders, finding out Ligues next court date, and what lineup to put
out in October .....

Magglio is basically unknown outside Chicago ........
:hijacked:

Sing it with me "It's the same 'ol song..."

hold2dibber
11-03-2004, 03:21 PM
Wait a minute ...... I thought ZERO errors meant you were getting a Gold Glove?
You thought wrong - Gold Glove is for best defensive player at the position, not for "least errors". Those are 2 very different things.


So if Frank Thomas hits 51 Homers next year, and Manny Ramirez hits 45 Homers, we should just give the Home Run Crown to Manny anyway, because
he always hits them? Or he hits them Farther? Or his Homers meant
something? Caballo should have a Gold Glove.
No - the Home Run Crown goes to the guy with the most home runs. The Gold Glove goes to the best defensive player. Least errors does not equal best defensive players (range, jump, arm strength and accuracy, etc. all play a role). In other words, gold glove is a subjective standard, Home Run Crown is not. They're not at all analogous.

Hangar18
11-03-2004, 03:37 PM
In other words, gold glove is a subjective standard, Home Run Crown is not. They're not at all analogous.

So the Gold Glove is a Subjective Award huh? I wonder if he was wearing the Lovable Loser uniform, if the media would be in an uproar about a Non Gold Glove award ......

santo=dorf
11-03-2004, 03:47 PM
So the Gold Glove is a Subjective Award huh? I wonder if he was wearing the Lovable Loser uniform, if the media would be in an uproar about a Non Gold Glove award ......Just wait until Corey Patterson and his single error don't get a gold glove over Edmonds or Andruw Jones. Cub fans have been crying for he, Lee, Maddux, and Ramirez (!) to ALL get gold gloves this season.

jabrch
11-03-2004, 04:09 PM
Just wait until Corey Patterson and his single error don't get a gold glove over Edmonds or Andruw Jones. Cub fans have been crying for he, Lee, Maddux, and Ramirez (!) to ALL get gold gloves this season.
Lee and Maddux both deserve it. They are both outstanding gloves at their positions. Ramirez is a joke - I haven't heard him even put in the top 5 in the NL. Patteron is a ?. He has great range, a decent arm, and a good glove. He probably won't win, and but you could make a better case for him than for Carlos. Lee is a LF. It is hard to give a LF a GG when he doesn't cover much ground. Compare the ground Patterson has to cover (Alou and Sammy around him) to Lee (a foul line and Rowand cover much more ground combined). It isn't close.

Lee has no legitimate arguement for a GG. He isn't one of the three best defensive OFs in the AL. He probably isn't top 5 and might not even be top 10. But Patterson...that is much closer.

ChiSoxBobette
11-04-2004, 09:38 AM
Um - those 3 are far superior (like WORLDS SUPERIOR) defensively to Carlos. Errors and assists are not sufficient alone to judge an OF.It does'nt matter if they're far superior to C.Lee in the past because it should be based on what was done during the 2004 season and C.Lee should have won it over Vernon Wells at the very least. As far as your statement "errors and assists are not sufficient alone to judge an OF" then what do you base it on Tori Hunters ability to make evry play look harder than it is come on the guy either has to dive or jump for every fly ball that comes his way, and last year I would much rather have had C.Lee's offense than Tori(Homeboy)Hunter diving all over the field for balls that he probably could have reached without all the acrobatics.

jabrch
11-04-2004, 09:44 AM
It does'nt matter if they're far superior to C.Lee in the past because it should be based on what was done during the 2004 season and C.Lee should have won it over Vernon Wells at the very least. As far as your statement "errors and assists are not sufficient alone to judge an OF" then what do you base it on Tori Hunters ability to make evry play look harder than it is come on the guy either has to dive or jump for every fly ball that comes his way, and last year I would much rather have had C.Lee's offense than Tori(Homeboy)Hunter diving all over the field for balls that he probably could have reached without all the acrobatics.
That's your evaluation of it. His peers and baseball managers obviously disagree with you. Do you really think that Hunter dives all over the field for balls he could otherwise reach? I don't. In fact, I never have seen him dive for a ball he would have gotten without diving. Hunter has great range, as a CF. He covers short ground, and gets all the way back to the wall. He plays CF, without the most rangy OFs on his sides, while Lee has a line on one side and Rowand on the other.

I've read Moneyball. I understand that the diving catch is overrated and that people remember it. Thanks. But Carlos' lack of errors doesn't put him in the category of the great CFs and RFs that are GGers. How many LFs win a GG to begin with? I can't think of many. Carlos has improved significantly - but his arm doesn't compare with Hunter/Wells/Ichiro. His range doesn't compare. His speed doesn't compare. Teams don't fear him the same. His peers, those who know a lot more about how to play MLB OF than you and I do, didn't give him the GG. I think there is a reason.

jabrch
11-04-2004, 09:46 AM
It does'nt matter if they're far superior to C.Lee in the past because it should be based on what was done during the 2004 season
And I said NOTHING about the past. This year, Carlos doesn't compare to Ichiro, Hunter or Wells.

Over By There
11-04-2004, 09:52 AM
Here's the Rawlings page on the GG:

http://www.rawlings.com/bridge/goldglove.jsp

FWIW, it doesn't say anything about being awarded to players with zero errors.

Also, I was tickled to see that in the first year they handed out GGs, 3 White Sox players were honored: Sherm, Nellie and Minnie. :cool:

Dolanski
11-04-2004, 10:19 AM
This has to be the most retarded thread ever. CLee is no where near a Gold Glove outfielder. Next thing you know you are going to say that Jon Garland got snubbed for the Cy Young...

Dibbs
11-04-2004, 11:30 AM
Why in the world do they give 3 Gold Gloves to centerfielders almost every year? ( 2CF, 1RF this year)

They should have Gold Gloves awarded to every position. Then you could say Carlos can compete. Of course he isn't as good as the Ichiro, Hunter or Wells.

Why don't they just give out Gold Gloves to infielders of any position? They break those down, but not outfielders? Doesn't make sense. Maybe they should just award the top 9 defensive players from any position.

markfromthechi
11-04-2004, 12:04 PM
Carlos Lee had no errors this season in the outfield

I cannot speak for all gold glove outfielders, particularly AL gold glove outfielders besides Ichiro... 3 errors in 4 seasons, but Im sure they had to have some errors, either way, one is more than Carlos' zero.

In the NL, Edmonds had 4 errors and Andruw Jones had 3...

Carlos Lee had none, and he didnt get a gold glove....(I shouldnt really be comparing them to NL winners, however, If you can win one with 3 and 4 errors, zero errors should mean a shoo-in)

anyone else feel he was ripped off.. if not let me know why.....

Rocklive99
11-04-2004, 12:12 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=41532


Like I said in the other thread, I don't get how Wells could've gotten it, wasn't he hurt for more than half of the year?
Also, Jeter getting one is a joke. Sounds like they're basing on just that one play against Boston. Also, Bret Boone and not Orlando Hudson? I guess it's more about name recognition.

TRL
11-04-2004, 12:14 PM
Unfortunately, it's about name recognition and how well you hit.

Grobber33
11-04-2004, 04:00 PM
Sorry guys, I asked a few scouts and they say that Carlos just did'nt get to enough balls,and that it's not just stats even tho he made zero errors. I talked with many at the World Series in both Boston and St.Louis and nobody mentioned Lee as a Gold Glover,altho most feel he has improved plenty--which of course he has!

RKMeibalane
11-04-2004, 04:22 PM
Sorry guys, I asked a few scouts and they say that Carlos just did'nt get to enough balls,and that it's not just stats even tho he made zero errors. I talked with many at the World Series in both Boston and St.Louis and nobody mentioned Lee as a Gold Glover,altho most feel he has improved plenty--which of course he has!
Grobber is right. It's not only about not making errors. It's also about taking chances on difficult flyballs hit into the outfield. Carlos didn't do that often enough, and that's why he didn't win a Gold Glove. If I were managing, I would much rather have a player who's willing to dive for a ball than one who stops short and lets the ball fall in front of him. I'm sure there are a number of Major Leauge pitchers who feel the same way.

jabrch
11-04-2004, 04:34 PM
Sorry guys, I asked a few scouts and they say that Carlos just did'nt get to enough balls,and that it's not just stats even tho he made zero errors. I talked with many at the World Series in both Boston and St.Louis and nobody mentioned Lee as a Gold Glover,altho most feel he has improved plenty--which of course he has!
Agreed Les. A GG is not for a player with no errors, it is for the best defensive player at his position. Carlos is not the third best OF in the AL. He's probably not even top 10, regardless of how many errors he made or did not make.

Les, do you think there is anyone who the scouts think got really snubbed - AL or NL?

Brian26
11-04-2004, 04:53 PM
Sorry guys, I asked a few scouts and they say that Carlos just did'nt get to enough balls,and that it's not just stats even tho he made zero errors.

Yep. It could be because he's a.) too slow or b.) intentionally doesn't take risks. I belive our dear friend Royce Clayton used to fall into category b.).

Foulke29
11-04-2004, 05:32 PM
Grobber is right. It's not only about not making errors. It's also about taking chances on difficult flyballs hit into the outfield. Carlos didn't do that often enough, and that's why he didn't win a Gold Glove. If I were managing, I would much rather have a player who's willing to dive for a ball than one who stops short and lets the ball fall in front of him. I'm sure there are a number of Major Leauge pitchers who feel the same way.
I dunno - it depends on whether that OF can actually catch the ball on a dive. Let's face it, if you know you won't catch it, diving will only turn a single into a double and a double into a triple.

:bandance:

Ol' No. 2
11-04-2004, 05:35 PM
Grobber is right. It's not only about not making errors. It's also about taking chances on difficult flyballs hit into the outfield. Carlos didn't do that often enough, and that's why he didn't win a Gold Glove. If I were managing, I would much rather have a player who's willing to dive for a ball than one who stops short and lets the ball fall in front of him. I'm sure there are a number of Major Leauge pitchers who feel the same way.Playing the OF is about a lot more than just catching fly balls. Anybody can catch a fly ball. It's also about cutting off balls hit in the gaps and preventing extra bases. Carlos, though a lot better than he was, is still average to below average in this department. Instead of charging over and cutting it off, he usually goes around in front of the ball and lets it come to him. The extra time is often enough to turn a single into a double. And I don't think anyone would say that his throwing arm is anything more than average, at best. He's no longer a liability, but Gold Glove? Not a chance.

FightingBillini
11-04-2004, 06:09 PM
the main criteria for winning the home run title is hitting the most home runs. its not so simple with something like a gold glove. if no errors was the sole criteria, theoretically a 500 lb man sitting on stool can win a gold glove because he has little chances to make an error.
And in left field... George Wendt.

Pea-Pod
11-04-2004, 08:04 PM
i remember wen carlos was dropping routine balls. He has definitely come a long way. I bet we see mags get a gold glove (unfortunately not in a sox uniform) before carlos does tho. Mags has that ability to get great jumps on balls and cover lots of ground.

OEO Magglio
11-04-2004, 08:30 PM
Sorry guys, I asked a few scouts and they say that Carlos just did'nt get to enough balls,and that it's not just stats even tho he made zero errors. I talked with many at the World Series in both Boston and St.Louis and nobody mentioned Lee as a Gold Glover,altho most feel he has improved plenty--which of course he has!
Carlos was actually 5th in the league in range factor for left fielders(I believe) however he shouldn't even be mentioned for the gold glove because he has to go up against centerfielders as well, Carlos is much improved but not a gold glover with the current system, now if they gave out the gold glove to each outfield position, carlos might have a valid argument. Either way if Derek Jeter wins a gold glove you know there is a problem with the system.

faneidde
11-04-2004, 08:54 PM
If they gave a most improved defensive player award since the beginning of his career, Carlos would be the man. However, he is not a great defensive outfielder by any stretch of the imagination. He doesn't cover much ground and he doesn't have a great arm, although his assists this year were fantastic. No one can seriously argue Carlos was better than Huner or Ichiro. I'd also take Carl Crawford over C. Lee any day of the week. Congrats to Carlos on a fine defensive year, but he'll enver win a gold glove.

RKMeibalane
11-04-2004, 09:17 PM
I dunno - it depends on whether that OF can actually catch the ball on a dive. Let's face it, if you know you won't catch it, diving will only turn a single into a double and a double into a triple.

:bandance:
I agree. What I meant in my earlier post was that Carlos often does not take chances on balls that he could catch by diving. I don't have a problem with allowing a ball to drop if you're not going to get to it by diving, but Carlos often allows catchable balls to drop near him instead of going after them.

ChiSoxBobette
11-05-2004, 06:25 AM
That's your evaluation of it. His peers and baseball managers obviously disagree with you. Do you really think that Hunter dives all over the field for balls he could otherwise reach? I don't. In fact, I never have seen him dive for a ball he would have gotten without diving. Hunter has great range, as a CF. He covers short ground, and gets all the way back to the wall. He plays CF, without the most rangy OFs on his sides, while Lee has a line on one side and Rowand on the other.

I've read Moneyball. I understand that the diving catch is overrated and that people remember it. Thanks. But Carlos' lack of errors doesn't put him in the category of the great CFs and RFs that are GGers. How many LFs win a GG to begin with? I can't think of many. Carlos has improved significantly - but his arm doesn't compare with Hunter/Wells/Ichiro. His range doesn't compare. His speed doesn't compare. Teams don't fear him the same. His peers, those who know a lot more about how to play MLB OF than you and I do, didn't give him the GG. I think there is a reason.and with the exception of ichiro, though he is'nt a HR threat, you can say the same about Hunter and Wells offensively compared to C.Lee other teams don't fear them as much as Carlos. The point about this is'nt that they're better now, always or in the past it should be based on what thier defensive stats are for that year and C. Lee's more than compared with any of thiers. As far as Homeboy Hunter he's a good defensive outfielder, CF's, that all of the media loves ,as far as being a threat Aaron Rowand played a pretty good CF last year for us and was far superior at the plate compared with Mr. Overated.

SOXSINCE'70
11-05-2004, 07:25 AM
Carlos Lee has improved on defense.He is no longer
"the butcher" in left field.But he is not a GG candidate.
Not yet,at least.Maybe someday,but not now.

jabrch
11-05-2004, 07:59 AM
and with the exception of ichiro, though he is'nt a HR threat, you can say the same about Hunter and Wells offensively compared to C.Lee other teams don't fear them as much as Carlos. The point about this is'nt that they're better now, always or in the past it should be based on what thier defensive stats are for that year and C. Lee's more than compared with any of thiers. As far as Homeboy Hunter he's a good defensive outfielder, CF's, that all of the media loves ,as far as being a threat Aaron Rowand played a pretty good CF last year for us and was far superior at the plate compared with Mr. Overated.
First off, it has NOTHING to do with the plate - so take that out of the equation when comparing Hunter to Rowand. Second, it is not, as you said, "based on what thier defensive stats are for that year". It is based on who is a BETTER DEFENSIVE PLAYER. The limited stats that are usable are hardly enough to judge defense. If the award were for fewest errors, Carlos would have earned it. It isn't - it is for the best defensive OFs. Thus, Carlos' name isn't mentioned in the top 10 - and rightfully so.

StockdaleForVeep
11-05-2004, 12:07 PM
i believe the term yer looking for is lead glove award

rmusacch
11-05-2004, 12:17 PM
That's bs, wasn't Wells injured for like 3/5 of the season?The Gold Glove awards are a joke. Rafael Palmeiro won the gold glove at first base only playing 28 games in the field in 1999.