PDA

View Full Version : 10/28: New Vizquel-to-Sox Rumor


Wealz
10-28-2004, 10:39 PM
George Ofman on the SCORE tonight says White Sox sources told him that they want Vizquel as the starting SS next year and that Vizquel wants to come here.

Ugh. What a terrible move this would be. If this indeed does happen I'll lose whatever faith I have left in the current front office.

Ofman also said the Sox will get a left-handed starter. My guess would be Odalis Perez.

nodiggity59
10-28-2004, 10:41 PM
George Ofman on the SCORE tonight says White Sox sources told him that they want Vizquel as the starting SS next year and that Vizquel wants to come here.

Ugh. What a terrible move this would be. If this indeed does happen I'll lose whatever faith I have left in the current front office.

Ofman also said the Sox will get a left-handed starter. My guess would be Odalis Perez.
You're not going to wait and see for what price?

You're not going to see what other moves are made?

You're just going to make a sweeping critique of the moves on the 1st day of the offseason?

Wealz
10-28-2004, 10:44 PM
You're not going to wait and see for what price?

You're not going to see what other moves are made?

You're just going to make a sweeping critique of the moves on the 1st day of the offseason?
Yes.

Uribe is a better SS and player than Vizquel.

Jjav829
10-28-2004, 10:45 PM
Yes.

Uribe is a better SS and player than Vizquel.
So then who do you want at second base?

Irishsox1
10-28-2004, 10:45 PM
If the Sox can get 3 years out of Omar, it would be a great pick up. The guy has a great glove, can still hit (.290 last year) and is a good leader. It's not Jeter or A-Rod, but he's a solid player the Sox can afford. Would be a great pick up. The big money should be spent of the pitching.

Mickster
10-28-2004, 10:46 PM
I have no problem w/ Omar so long as Juan is at 2nd, or even at 3rd if Crede stinks it up again. Bring him on, especially at a cheap salary!

nodiggity59
10-28-2004, 10:46 PM
Yes.

Uribe is a better SS and player than Vizquel.
Debateable, but Vizquel is certainly better than Harris. So long as we don't overpay, Vizquel-Uribe will be an upgrade over last year.

nitetrain8601
10-28-2004, 10:48 PM
Yes.

Uribe is a better SS and player than Vizquel.
I gotta see what other moves are made before I critique this one. I don't think this move helps us unless we are getting a ground ball pitcher. Derek Lowe anyone???

Win1ForMe
10-28-2004, 10:49 PM
George Ofman on the SCORE tonight says White Sox sources told him that they want Vizquel as the starting SS next year and that Vizquel wants to come here.

Ugh. What a terrible move this would be. If this indeed does happen I'll lose whatever faith I have left in the current front office.

Ofman also said the Sox will get a left-handed starter. My guess would be Odalis Perez.
I think the LHP will be Milton, but I hope it's Johnson.

Jjav829
10-28-2004, 10:52 PM
I have no problem w/ Omar so long as Juan is at 2nd, or even at 3rd if Crede stinks it up again. Bring him on, especially at a cheap salary!I agree with that. Ideally I would like to see KW go after a good leadoff hitting second baseman. But since there are few of those available, I would not mind having Uribe at 2B and Vizquel at SS. With Crede, Vizquel, Uribe, and Konerko/Gload, the IF defense is certainly good. If the new swing of Joe Crede does not lead to more consistant offense from him, Uribe can slide to 3B.

The only problem with this is that we replace one SS whose name gets commonly misspelled (Valentine) with another who we've already seen misspelled frequently. Let's all practice this right now. Vizquel. Vizquel. Vizquel. V-I-Z-Q-U-E-L. There is no "s" in the mans name. Don't give him one. I'm sure he doesn't want it.

Wealz
10-28-2004, 10:53 PM
So then who do you want at second base?
Okay, I'd be fine with Vizquel at second for one year. You and I both know he wouldn't come here to play second though. It would be just like this group to move a potential mid-to-long-term solution at short to another position to make room for a soon-to-be over the hill guy like Vizquel.

Wealz
10-28-2004, 10:54 PM
I think the LHP will be Milton, but I hope it's Johnson.
I hope not. Milton would be a disaster at the cell.

Win1ForMe
10-28-2004, 10:57 PM
Okay, I'd be fine with Vizquel at second for one year. You and I both know he wouldn't come here to play second though. It would be just like this group to move a potential mid-to-long-term solution at short to another position to make room for a soon-to-be over the hill guy like Vizquel.Yes, because putting Uribe at 2B for one or two years obviously ends any chances of him becoming a good SS.

Why are you trolling?

nodiggity59
10-28-2004, 10:59 PM
Why are you trolling?
:dtroll: =:tsk:

OEO Magglio
10-28-2004, 11:01 PM
I hope not. Milton would be a disaster at the cell.
Vizquel is such a perfect player for the sox, imo. Brings solid defense to the team even though he has lost some range, great top of the order hitter, he can run, he can bunt, perfect type of player for the way ozzie wants to play. An infield defense of Crede, Vizquel, Uribe and Gload(if Pauly is traded) would be fantastic, and if crede would be able to produce offensively that offensive production wouldn't be to bad either I do agree with you about Milton he'd absolutely get destroyed at the cell. Hopefully that left handed starter is RJ if not hopefully it's Odalis.

Win1ForMe
10-28-2004, 11:02 PM
I hope not. Milton would be a disaster at the cell.
Just about any pitcher not named Randy Johnson would be a disaster at the Cell. You know, the Sox do occasionally play on the road.

I'll take any pitcher with a 42-28 record his last 4 years in the AL.

Win1ForMe
10-28-2004, 11:04 PM
Vizquel is such a perfect player for the sox, imo. Brings solid defense to the team even though he has lost some range, great top of the order hitter, he can run, he can bunt, perfect type of player for the way ozzie wants to play. An infield defense of Crede, Vizquel, Uribe and Gload(if Pauly is traded) would be fantastic, and if crede would be able to produce offensively that offensive production wouldn't be to bad either I do agree with you about Milton he'd absolutely get destroyed at the cell. Hopefully that left handed starter is RJ if not hopefully it's Odalis.
What makes you think Odalis Perez won't get destroyed at the Cell? He gave up 26 HRs pitching in LA, that's a large number in that ballpark.

Wealz
10-28-2004, 11:06 PM
Yes, because putting Uribe at 2B for one or two years obviously ends any chances of him becoming a good SS.

Why are you trolling?
Uribe is a better defensive SS today than the 37-year-old Vizquel. Vizquel isn't a good enough offensive player to weaken your defense for, so if he were to sign here, he's the guy who should play second.

soxnut
10-28-2004, 11:10 PM
The only problem with this is that we replace one SS whose name gets commonly misspelled (Valentine) with another who we've already seen misspelled frequently. Let's all practice this right now. Vizquel. Vizquel. Vizquel. V-I-Z-Q-U-E-L. There is no "s" in the mans name. Don't give him one. I'm sure he doesn't want it.
While I agree with you being the grammar police, I hope you also point out something else as well: The then-than grammatical error that folks make on here every day.:redneck

Ol' No. 2
10-28-2004, 11:11 PM
While I agree with your being the grammar police, I hope you also pont out something else as well: The then-than grammatical error that folks make on here every day.:redneckYour certainly on you're toes today.:D:

OEO Magglio
10-28-2004, 11:13 PM
What makes you think Odalis Perez won't get destroyed at the Cell? He gave up 26 HRs pitching in LA, that's a large number in that ballpark.
Odalis is just a much, much better pitcher imo. I don't think he's the best out there, I'd actually much rather have Derek Lowe but for the left handed starters out on the fa market Odalis is the best, imo.

Mickster
10-28-2004, 11:16 PM
Odalis is just a much, much better pitcher imo. I don't think he's the best out there, I'd actually much rather have Derek Lowe but for the left handed starters out on the fa market Odalis is the best, imo.
Honestly, we haven't even had a real 5 man rotation in the last 4 years. Odalis, Lowe, RJ, Milton, Pavano, Pedro, Clement, etc.. will all be better than the crap that we have been floating out of the bottom of our rotation in the last couple of years.

Win1ForMe
10-28-2004, 11:18 PM
Just about any pitcher not named Randy Johnson would be a disaster at the Cell. You know, the Sox do occasionally play on the road.

I'll take any pitcher with a 42-28 record his last 4 years in the AL.
Just to follow up on that point, here's the home ERAs of our pitchers this year:

Buehrle- 5.02
Garcia- 5.37 (USCF)
Garland- 5.27
Contreras- 4.13 (USCF)
Loaiza- 5.94 (USCF)

So it appears Jose Contreras is the only one that's worth anything.

Jjav829
10-28-2004, 11:19 PM
While I agree with you being the grammar police, I hope you also point out something else as well: The then-than grammatical error that folks make on here every day.:redneck
Ehh, I didn't do that in my post. :smile:

That mistake gets made over and over again. I'm aware of when to use each so if I do make the mistake, it's usually because I didn't bother to proofread my post and simply relied on spellchecker to catch misspellings. I'm more concerned with players names than turning into the next kittle. :wink: If you are going to spend hours obsessing over this team, it shouldn't be too hard to know how to spell Buehrle, Valentin, or even a potential Sox player like Vizquel.

Kogs35
10-28-2004, 11:24 PM
remeber the sox open agianst the indians and then play in cleveland a week later for there home opener

Rex Hudler
10-28-2004, 11:26 PM
Yes.

Uribe is a better SS and player than Vizquel.
You're nuts! If the Sox are trying to sign a free agent SS, then it is obvious they do not think Uribe is ready to step in full-time at SS. If they don't have the confidence in their own player who they dealt with everyday (especially w/ Ozzie a former SS), then there is no reason to think it is POSSIBLE for your statement to be true.

The only other argument is that they think a combo of Vizquel at SS and Uribe at 2B is stronger than Uribe at SS paired with either Willie or a free agent 2B. If you want to argue that point, go right ahead. But do it better than just making a foolish one-line blanket statement.

Rex Hudler
10-28-2004, 11:28 PM
If the Sox can get 3 years out of Omar, it would be a great pick up. The guy has a great glove, can still hit (.290 last year) and is a good leader. It's not Jeter or A-Rod, but he's a solid player the Sox can afford. Would be a great pick up. The big money should be spent of the pitching.
He'll get two years at between $4.75 and $5.25 million, with a possible club option for a third year. Just a prediction.

Flight #24
10-28-2004, 11:35 PM
The only other argument is that they think a combo of Vizquel at SS and Uribe at 2B is stronger than Uribe at SS paired with either Willie or a free agent 2B. If you want to argue that point, go right ahead. But do it better than just making a foolish one-line blanket statement.
I think this, or the possibility that Uribe-Vizquel-Harris is better than Crede-Uribe-Harris is exactly it. Given Jose's versatility, Vizquel gives them a lot of options to offset potential lack of development of Harris & Crede. He also can be a pretty good mentor to the young IFers. And assuming he's relatively cheap (3-4mil), he can play well enough to make that an attractive package.

Wealz
10-28-2004, 11:37 PM
You're nuts! If the Sox are trying to sign a free agent SS, then it is obvious they do not think Uribe is ready to step in full-time at SS. If they don't have the confidence in their own player who they dealt with everyday (especially w/ Ozzie a former SS), then there is no reason to think it is POSSIBLE for your statement to be true..The Sox thought Todd Ritchie was on the cusp of being a top-of-the-rotation starter, that Jose Valentin would be fine in center, and that Billy Koch threw 97+MPH when they traded for him, to name just a few of their evaluation gaffes.

Kenny Williams has a history of acquiring players who don't show up here as advertised and I have no doubt that Vizquel's defensive prowess, at 38 next year, would be another example of that.

schmitty9800
10-28-2004, 11:37 PM
He'll get two years at between $4.75 and $5.25 million, with a possible club option for a third year. Just a prediction.
At this price this would be a great signing. 2-3 years is about right to let the prospects develop some more. Also, with Uribe at 2B that's some pretty solid defense up the middle. I like this a lot better then overpaying for Cabrera, once Nomar gets his 16 million Cabrera is going to want something in the 12-14 million range. We can still entertain hopes of Maggs or Beltran.

Plus, as much as I hate to say it he'd become some great mid-season trade bait provided he's hitting .270 or so. If things go into the tank we can always move him for prospects, contenders that aren't solid on their defense will want him. (KNOCK ON WOOD)

Ol' No. 2
10-28-2004, 11:39 PM
I think this, or the possibility that Uribe-Vizquel-Harris is better than Crede-Uribe-Harris is exactly it. Given Jose's versatility, Vizquel gives them a lot of options to offset potential lack of development of Harris & Crede. He also can be a pretty good mentor to the young IFers. And assuming he's relatively cheap (3-4mil), he can play well enough to make that an attractive package.I see this as more insurance against the possibility that Harris, Uribe and/or Crede will either not develop next year or could be traded this winter. But it's EXACTLY the kind of move I would expect from KW.

Flight #24
10-28-2004, 11:40 PM
I see this as more insurance against the possibility that Harris, Uribe and/or Crede will either not develop next year or could be traded this winter. But it's EXACTLY the kind of move I would expect from KW.
Im confused. Your first sentence sounds like it's a good thing, your second like it's bad. What are you trying to say?

MRKARNO
10-28-2004, 11:57 PM
He'll get two years at between $4.75 and $5.25 million, with a possible club option for a third year. Just a prediction.

That's a bit on the pricy side, but I could deal with that if it was part of an overall increase in payroll. Besides Young, Tejada, Jeter and Guillen, there werent many better AL shortstops than Vizquel in 2004

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2004, 12:00 AM
Im confused. Your first sentence sounds like it's a good thing, your second like it's bad. What are you trying to say?Kenny likes veterans, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think all three of these guys will come around. But insurance isn't such a bad idea, as long as it's not too pricey. The Sox definately need a leadoff hitter, and Vizquel seems still able to do that. Maybe Harris and Uribe can learn a thing or two from him.

Tragg
10-29-2004, 12:08 AM
He's a 37 year old shortstop who's lost a step. He has no power and if he can't get at least a .340 OBP, he's an offensive lliabilty. As a 1 year stop-gap, fine, but a real shortstop would be nice.
I don't know what we're paying him, but I would hope it's no more than 50% of what we (over)paid valentin.

jordan23ventura
10-29-2004, 12:08 AM
What makes you think Odalis Perez won't get destroyed at the Cell? He gave up 26 HRs pitching in LA, that's a large number in that ballpark.

I hadn't seen too much of Odalis until the postseason, and OMG did he choke. Please, please, let's have nothing to do with this guy. We already have one guy in the rotation that is going to "break out any year now...."

sircaffey1
10-29-2004, 12:10 AM
Harris OR Vizquel..........?

Hmmm....tough one....

hitlesswonder
10-29-2004, 12:26 AM
He's a 37 year old shortstop who's lost a step. He has no power and if he can't get at least a .340 OBP, he's an offensive lliabilty. As a 1 year stop-gap, fine, but a real shortstop would be nice.
I don't know what we're paying him, but I would hope it's no more than 50% of what we (over)paid valentin.That's a little strong, but I generally agree. I think Uribe's range and arm are wasted at 2nd, and that he currently has a glove at least as good as Vizquel's. I think Uribe was just as good as Vizquel at the plate (Uribe was .283/.327/.833 and Vizquel .291/.353/.741 for BA/OBP/OPS) and Uribe is much, much cheaper. Vizquel's BA the last 3 years before last were .255, .275, and .244. Some of those were injury shortened years, but that's a concern as well. If Rex meant the contract would 4 to 5 million a year, I think it's a bad investment. Vizquel has been a great player, but it's not like the Sox are a veteran SS away from the series or overtaking the Twins. I'd rather see money like that invested in someone younger. If the Sox are concerned about 2B or 3B, then go get one of those, not a SS. For 4 to 5 million a year the Sox could sign Placido Polanco who can play 2B or 3B and is at least 2 years younger than Vizquel.

One question for Rex -- is it true that Viquel doesn't like to bat leadoff and do you think he would do it if he came to the Sox?

CleeFan101
10-29-2004, 12:30 AM
placido polanco is more then 2 years younger then vizquel he is like 27ish i think... he would also be a perfect number 2 hitter in the lineup it seems to me barely ever strikes out :bandance: :bandance: :bandance:

hitlesswonder
10-29-2004, 12:43 AM
Odalis is just a much, much better pitcher imo. I don't think he's the best out there, I'd actually much rather have Derek Lowe but for the left handed starters out on the fa market Odalis is the best, imo.I'll take Odalis over Milton, too. It's not even close, using last seasons' stats:


Pitcher ERA WHIP HR GO/AO Age

Perez 3.25 1.14 26(12 home, 14 away) 1.83 27

Milton 4.75 1.35 43(20 home, 23 away) 0.59 29



Milton would be a disaster in USCF. GO/FA is ground out to fly out ratio, and higher is obviously better for USCF. If he gave up 43 HR last year, I don't want to guess what he would do for the Sox. Plus the Yankees are supposedly interested (I'd be happy if they signed him).

As for Perez, it's true he pitched in LA, but his home/road ERAs were about the same. Despite his playoff perfromance, I think he'd be a great addition to Sox.

JB98
10-29-2004, 02:25 AM
It's always interesting to see how WSI posters rate players on other teams. Within the last week, we've had someone describe Cristian Guzman as "great defensively," and we've had someone claim that Uribe is a better defensive SS that Vizquel. I think most MLB scouts would laugh out loud at either of those two statements.

Vizquel has lost a step, but he's still one of the top two or three defensive SS in the American League. In his prime, he was the best in the game. Should we sign him? That depends on how many years he wants. No way he's getting a 3-year deal from me. I'd give him one year with a club option and nothing more. His advanced age concerns me, and frankly, I'd rather have Rowand hitting leadoff.

Odalis Perez or Eric Milton? I hope the White Sox avoid both. Derek Lowe is the pitcher we should sign. I said it after I saw him pitch Game 4 of the ALCS. I was mocked and taunted by posters who believe Lowe is a headcase. Well, he sure pitched pretty well in Game 7 of the ALCS and again in Game 4 of the WS. The good news is, my support for Lowe has been vindicated by the way he performed under pressure. The bad news is, those two outings just drove up the price it will take to sign him, and the Sox are still owned by JR.

hitlesswonder
10-29-2004, 03:49 AM
It's always interesting to see how WSI posters rate players on other teams. Within the last week, we've had someone describe Cristian Guzman as "great defensively," and we've had someone claim that Uribe is a better defensive SS that Vizquel. I think most MLB scouts would laugh out loud at either of those two statements.
Do I get any points back if I mention that I think Guzman is a bad defensive SS? I only saw Vizquel play 3 or 4 times last year (and on television, so not the ideal way to form an opinion admittedly). He still has great hands, better than Uribe's, no doubt about it. But it looked to me like he no longer had either the range or arm Uribe has at this point. I know this won't convince anyone, but Uribe's zone rating and fielding pct. at SS last year were .983 and .881. Vizquel's were .982 and .840. Career, Uribe has around an .843 ZR and Vizquel an .859. I know defensive stats aren't great evidence, but it seems to agree with what I saw. I'll admit I know almost nothing about baseball, so I could easily be wrong. If anyone else can offer a comparison of Uribe and Vizquel in the field, I'd be interested to read it. Is it true that Uribe is "laugh out loud" worse than Vizquel with the glove?

GiveMeSox
10-29-2004, 04:56 AM
George Ofman on the SCORE tonight says White Sox sources told him that they want Vizquel as the starting SS next year and that Vizquel wants to come here.

Ugh. What a terrible move this would be. If this indeed does happen I'll lose whatever faith I have left in the current front office.

Ofman also said the Sox will get a left-handed starter. My guess would be Odalis Perez.
Hey if getting Omar means Uribe starts at 2nd over willie im all for it. We need to whatever we can to get the easiest out in baseball, willie, off the team. I would much rather see omar at SS and Uribe at 2b over Uribe at SS and willie at 2b any day. Plus uribe and omar could be very could 1 and 2 combo. Both have speed, great D, can bunt and hit around .280. Sounds fine to me. ANd i dont think the sox are that high on Perez anymore, more likely we go after Milton.

jabrch
10-29-2004, 06:55 AM
The trolls and idiots who bash moves KW hasn't even made yet really make me laugh. I'd take Vizquel in a heartbeat. An IF of Crede, Vizquel, Uribe and PK would be rock solid. Also Vizquel handles the bat well from the top of the order from both sides of the plate, something we desperately need.

I wish people would stop trolling for fights about every single potential move. This would be a great way to start the offseason.

SOXSINCE'70
10-29-2004, 08:12 AM
Uribe is a better SS and player than Vizquel.
Vizquel's presence alone could help Uribe's defense.I could live with
Uribe at SS or 2B.Vizquel's not such a bad hitter either.He always kills
the Sox.

thepaulbowski
10-29-2004, 08:49 AM
Uribe is a better defensive SS today than the 37-year-old Vizquel. Vizquel isn't a good enough offensive player to weaken your defense for, so if he were to sign here, he's the guy who should play second.

These numbers are just terrible. Vizquel would be the perfect player to fill a hole on the cheap for a couple years. Then let them make a bigger more elsewhere.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4306

hitlesswonder
10-29-2004, 09:52 AM
The trolls and idiots who bash moves KW hasn't even made yet really make me laugh. I'd take Vizquel in a heartbeat. An IF of Crede, Vizquel, Uribe and PK would be rock solid. Also Vizquel handles the bat well from the top of the order from both sides of the plate, something we desperately need.

I wish people would stop trolling for fights about every single potential move. This would be a great way to start the offseason.
I don't know if I'm included among the trolls and idiots (probably the latter, at least:smile: ), but I was really just trying to discuss players mentioned as Sox targets, an who I would like to see them get. In fact, to give him his due, it's because Williams made such a good trade trade (IMO) to get Uribe that I'd like to see them target someone other than a SS. And I don't think spending 5 million on a SS is a little deal (not huge, but significant). People went nuts when Valentin's option was picked up last year.

Win1ForMe
10-29-2004, 09:59 AM
Derek Lowe is the pitcher we should sign. I said it after I saw him pitch Game 4 of the ALCS. I was mocked and taunted by posters who believe Lowe is a headcase. Well, he sure pitched pretty well in Game 7 of the ALCS and again in Game 4 of the WS. The good news is, my support for Lowe has been vindicated by the way he performed under pressure. The bad news is, those two outings just drove up the price it will take to sign him, and the Sox are still owned by JR.
I have no idea how in your mind (or anyone else's for that matter), two good postseason starts can erase an entire year worth of struggles? Let me put it this way, if the Sox made the playoffs, and Jon Garland came up with two good starts in a row, would you be willing to sign him to a long-term deal? Because that's what you're essentially proposing we do with Lowe.

Derek Lowe is a headcase. That's what guys like him do. They'll have a few good starts to tease you, but they'll remain largely inconsistent. Just because Lowe had a 5.42 ERA during the season doesn't mean he didn't have any good starts (or even stretches of good starts). Check out his starts from Aug. 27-Sep. 12: 4 starts (all of them quality starts), 28.2 IP, 9 ER. He followed that up with: 3 starts (none of them quality starts), 8.1 IP, 15 ER.

Palehose13
10-29-2004, 10:57 AM
Vizquel? I like it. :thumbsup:

Lip Man 1
10-29-2004, 11:02 AM
Just FYI remember Ozzie said in the final days of the season that Uribe was going to be starting in the infield next season at one position only. He said Uribe earned that by his performance and that it wasn't fair for him to be moved around all the time.

My guess: 2nd base.

Lip

Flight #24
10-29-2004, 11:03 AM
Just FYI remember Ozzie said in the final days of the season that Uribe was going to be starting in the infield next season at one position only. He said Uribe earned that by his performance and that it wasn't fair for him to be moved around all the time.

My guess: 2nd base.

Lip
I'd agree, but I think that if Crede starts out slowly, Jose may be moved once, to 3B.

balke
10-29-2004, 12:03 PM
So can anyone compare Vizquel to Valentin for me, since I know Jack about what makes a good SS? All I know is I hate JV's strikeout's and DP's. But people here say he has great range. How much different/better is a 37 year old bag of bones?


(for some reason never remember if valentin gets an E or not.)

Flight #24
10-29-2004, 12:05 PM
So can anyone compare Vizquel to Valentine for me, since I know Jack about what makes a good SS? All I know is I hate JV's strikeout's and DP's. But people here say he has great range. How much different/better is a 37 year old bag of bones?
Not sure about valentine - isn't he a pitcher?

As for Valentin, quick assessment is that he's got more range at this point, but Vizquel is a lot steadier. Omar also will hit for less power, but a lot higher average & OBP, and much better at things like moving runners along, etc. I'd rate them relatively evenly, but tag Vizquel as a better fit for this team, especially on O.

santo=dorf
10-29-2004, 12:09 PM
Not sure about valentine - isn't he a pitcher?You're the one who suggested moving "Jose" Uribe to 3B if Crede gets off to a slow start. :tongue:

hitlesswonder
10-29-2004, 12:17 PM
So can anyone compare Vizquel to Valentin for me, since I know Jack about what makes a good SS? All I know is I hate JV's strikeout's and DP's. But people here say he has great range. How much different/better is a 37 year old bag of bones?


(for some reason never remember if valentin gets an E or not.)
There a good blog that analyzed this,the entry is here (http://whitesox.mostvaluablenetwork.com/index.php?p=157). It was before the end of thes season, I don't think it captures how terrible Valentin was at the plate in the second half, but I still think it's interesting.

sircaffey1
10-29-2004, 12:28 PM
This signing is not about Uribe's ability to play SS...

This signing would be about Harris's ability to play 2B. To my knowledge there is NO ONE worth signing that plays 2B(Kent not in our price range). So we either sign Omar for 4-5 million and have an EXTREMELY strong middle of the infield that is a pretty good hitting MI, or you go with Uribe at SS and Harris at 2B...To me this is a no doubter.

We are going to see a HUGE upgrade on defense with Omar over Jose. Suddenly 20-25 errors turns into 6-8 errors. Keep in mind this is no Royce Clayton. Omar can actually handle the bat pretty well.

Not to mention Omar's leadership abilities, the respect that he gets, his vast experience, and his likeable personality...

Getting Omar would deffinitely improve the team...Hopefully for under $5 million.

balke
10-29-2004, 12:35 PM
Hmm. Sigh, that's what I thought. Anything to appease us.

"We got rid of that bum Valentin. Guys, meet Omar..."
"But wait... isn't Omar worse"
"QUIET YOU!!! Do you want rid of Jose or NOT!!!???"

:whiner:

hitlesswonder
10-29-2004, 12:53 PM
This signing is not about Uribe's ability to play SS...

This signing would be about Harris's ability to play 2B. To my knowledge there is NO ONE worth signing that plays 2B(Kent not in our price range). So we either sign Omar for 4-5 million and have an EXTREMELY strong middle of the infield that is a pretty good hitting MI, or you go with Uribe at SS and Harris at 2B...To me this is a no doubter.

We are going to see a HUGE upgrade on defense with Omar over Jose. Suddenly 20-25 errors turns into 6-8 errors. Keep in mind this is no Royce Clayton. Omar can actually handle the bat pretty well.

Not to mention Omar's leadership abilities, the respect that he gets, his vast experience, and his likeable personality...

Getting Omar would deffinitely improve the team...Hopefully for under $5 million.
I think Polanco might be signable in the same price range, and he's younger than Vizquel with IMO a better bat. We'll disagree on this, but Jose's defense wasn't that bad last year. His fielding pct. was low (as always), but with his range and arm, he created a bunch of outs other SS don't. I think more than enough to make up for the errors, just my opinion.

But either way, if payroll is tight I don't like the idea of spending 5 million on SS again. Is there much of a market for Vizquel as a starter? The Indians are going with Peralta, the Twins supposedly want him but only for one year. I hope the Sox don't sign him fast before the market sets and overpay for him. I don't think they'll be bidding against many teams.

Brian26
10-29-2004, 12:56 PM
I think Polanco might be signable in the same price range, and he's younger than Vizquel with IMO a better bat.

Polanco was mediocre, at best, this year for my fantasy team. He's a bum. Stay away from him.

JB98
10-29-2004, 12:57 PM
Do I get any points back if I mention that I think Guzman is a bad defensive SS? I only saw Vizquel play 3 or 4 times last year (and on television, so not the ideal way to form an opinion admittedly). He still has great hands, better than Uribe's, no doubt about it. But it looked to me like he no longer had either the range or arm Uribe has at this point. I know this won't convince anyone, but Uribe's zone rating and fielding pct. at SS last year were .983 and .881. Vizquel's were .982 and .840. Career, Uribe has around an .843 ZR and Vizquel an .859. I know defensive stats aren't great evidence, but it seems to agree with what I saw. I'll admit I know almost nothing about baseball, so I could easily be wrong. If anyone else can offer a comparison of Uribe and Vizquel in the field, I'd be interested to read it. Is it true that Uribe is "laugh out loud" worse than Vizquel with the glove?
Well, I don't want to turn this into a bash Uribe discussion. I like Uribe, and I strongly believe he should be the starter at one of the middle infield positions next year. I don't want Valentin back and I've soured on Harris, so I would argue that we need another middle infielder. It could be a SS or a 2B. Juan could play the opposite position, and I'd be comfortable with it.

Uribe does have a better arm than Vizquel. The range factor is open for discussion, because I think both players have good range. However, I think Vizquel is the better defender because he has better hands, more experience and know-how, and he's better turning the DP.

Further, both of these men are better than Guzman both offensively and defensively, so I hope we have seen the last of the "Sign Guzman" discussions.

hitlesswonder
10-29-2004, 01:00 PM
Hmm. Sigh, that's what I thought. Anything to appease us.

"We got rid of that bum Valentin. Guys, meet Omar..."
"But wait... isn't Omar worse"
"QUIET YOU!!! Do you want rid of Jose or NOT!!!???"

:whiner:
Well, if Omar hits like he did last season, he's an improvement over Valentin. Jose just looked finished at plate in second half. He actually was decent in the first half and then just collapsed. I just think Uribe would be about as good as Viquel, and then the Sox could use the money to fill a worse hole (like a starting pitcher). But, a lot of smart people on the board like the idea of Viquel, so there is a small chance that I'm wrong :smile:

JB98
10-29-2004, 01:03 PM
I have no idea how in your mind (or anyone else's for that matter), two good postseason starts can erase an entire year worth of struggles? Let me put it this way, if the Sox made the playoffs, and Jon Garland came up with two good starts in a row, would you be willing to sign him to a long-term deal? Because that's what you're essentially proposing we do with Lowe.

Derek Lowe is a headcase. That's what guys like him do. They'll have a few good starts to tease you, but they'll remain largely inconsistent. Just because Lowe had a 5.42 ERA during the season doesn't mean he didn't have any good starts (or even stretches of good starts). Check out his starts from Aug. 27-Sep. 12: 4 starts (all of them quality starts), 28.2 IP, 9 ER. He followed that up with: 3 starts (none of them quality starts), 8.1 IP, 15 ER.
I'll tell you what, when Garland shuts down the Yankees twice in the playoffs and pitches seven innings of shutout ball in the World Series, come talk to me. Until then, I'm sticking to my guns. Lowe has won 52 games over the last three seasons, and he's a ground-ball pitcher. What do you propose we do? Stick with Jason Grilli?

hitlesswonder
10-29-2004, 01:06 PM
Polanco was mediocre, at best, this year for my fantasy team. He's a bum. Stay away from him.
I thought his numbers looked decent: .298 BA, 17 HR, .345 OBP out of a 2B.

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2004, 01:55 PM
Will someone please tell me why signing Vizquel is such a hot idea? In his prime he was solid defensively. But he's certainly no longer in his prime. This is no longer the Omar Vizquel from 5 years ago. He's lost a step for sure, and maybe more than a step being another year older. If there is a difference between him and Uribe on defense, it's pretty small.

Maybe it's his great OBP? .353 That guy Willie Harris that everyone loves to hate had a .343 OBP last year. So you want to blow $5M to gain 10 pts in OBP? If you're counting, that works out to getting on base one more time a month, at a cost of $833,000 each time.

If you have unlimited resources, this might make sense, but when you need pitching help as badly as the Sox do, I just can't see spending your limited ammo on such a modest improvement.

Ixnae on izquelvae

The_Floridian
10-29-2004, 02:20 PM
Here's a thought...What about Tony Womack?


He's a lead-off hitter, plays second base. He batted .307 this year with 26 steals and I remember his defense being pretty good when he was with Arizona. He's a free agent and he's younger than Vizquel.

I actually like the idea of Vizquel, but I thought this might be interesting too.

Rex Hudler
10-29-2004, 02:38 PM
That's a bit on the pricy side, but I could deal with that if it was part of an overall increase in payroll. Besides Young, Tejada, Jeter and Guillen, there werent many better AL shortstops than Vizquel in 2004
You think roughly $2.5 million a season is too high for a gold glove SS who would fit perfectly in the two-hole?

Rex Hudler
10-29-2004, 02:42 PM
That's a little strong, but I generally agree. I think Uribe's range and arm are wasted at 2nd, and that he currently has a glove at least as good as Vizquel's. I think Uribe was just as good as Vizquel at the plate (Uribe was .283/.327/.833 and Vizquel .291/.353/.741 for BA/OBP/OPS) and Uribe is much, much cheaper. Vizquel's BA the last 3 years before last were .255, .275, and .244. Some of those were injury shortened years, but that's a concern as well. If Rex meant the contract would 4 to 5 million a year, I think it's a bad investment. Vizquel has been a great player, but it's not like the Sox are a veteran SS away from the series or overtaking the Twins. I'd rather see money like that invested in someone younger. If the Sox are concerned about 2B or 3B, then go get one of those, not a SS. For 4 to 5 million a year the Sox could sign Placido Polanco who can play 2B or 3B and is at least 2 years younger than Vizquel.

One question for Rex -- is it true that Viquel doesn't like to bat leadoff and do you think he would do it if he came to the Sox?
I meant $4.75 to $5.25 million total for two years, not per year. And yes, Omar hates batting leadoff. I don't think he would come here to hit leadoff, nor do I think the Sox would want to sign him as their leadoff hitter. But I have no doubt that if an injury occurred or there was a reason they needed him to hit leadoff during the season, he'd do it without bitching about it. From what I know of Omar he is very intelligent and a professional. He goes about his business the right way and is still one of the best defensive SS in the game.

Wealz
10-29-2004, 02:43 PM
You think roughly $2.5 million a season is too high for a gold glove SS who would fit perfectly in the two-hole?
Vizquel will be 38 next season and he'll be far from a known commodity. There are many better ways to spend that money.

Rex Hudler
10-29-2004, 02:54 PM
The Sox thought Todd Ritchie was on the cusp of being a top-of-the-rotation starter, that Jose Valentin would be fine in center, and that Billy Koch threw 97+MPH when they traded for him, to name just a few of their evaluation gaffes.

Kenny Williams has a history of acquiring players who don't show up here as advertised and I have no doubt that Vizquel's defensive prowess, at 38 next year, would be another example of that.
Apples and oranges...... nice try!

In both the Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch cases you are talking about evaluating a free agent who played for another team. With Jose you are talking about moving a player to a new position.

Evaluating Uribe's ability to play SS everyday is a totally different story. You are talking about a guy you have had for a year and saw play most every day. You also have an evaluator who used to be a pretty good SS himself. If Ozzie isn't ready to have Juan play SS everyday, then I am comfortable with that evaluation and would put more stock in it than your message board rants.

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2004, 02:58 PM
I meant $4.75 to $5.25 million total for two years, not per year. And yes, Omar hates batting leadoff. I don't think he would come here to hit leadoff, nor do I think the Sox would want to sign him as their leadoff hitter. But I have no doubt that if an injury occurred or there was a reason they needed him to hit leadoff during the season, he'd do it without bitching about it. From what I know of Omar he is very intelligent and a professional. He goes about his business the right way and is still one of the best defensive SS in the game.It makes absolutely no sense to bring in Vizquel to hit anywhere else but leadoff. Who leads off, Rowand? And Vizquel hits behind him because....?

Rex Hudler
10-29-2004, 03:04 PM
It makes absolutely no sense to bring in Vizquel to hit anywhere else but leadoff. Who leads off, Rowand? And Vizquel hits behind him because....?
Because Vizquel is the perfect two-hole hitter for this lineup? He'll get most of his AB's from the left side. He can control the bat. Doesn't strike out much. He led the AL in sacrifice bunts last year with 20 and added another 6 sac flies. Great situational hitter.

I can definitely see why you wouldn't want him batting 2nd.

rdivaldi
10-29-2004, 03:13 PM
Because Vizquel is the perfect two-hole hitter for this lineup? He'll get most of his AB's from the left side. He can control the bat. Doesn't strike out much. He led the AL in sacrifice bunts last year with 20 and added another 6 sac flies. Great situational hitter.
Rex is absolutely correct. While Vizquel's age is something to worry about, he is an outstanding #2 hitter. Makes contact, hits for a decently high average, has decent speed, etc...

Wealz
10-29-2004, 03:14 PM
Apples and oranges...... nice try!

In both the Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch cases you are talking about evaluating a free agent who played for another team. With Jose you are talking about moving a player to a new position.

Evaluating Uribe's ability to play SS everyday is a totally different story. You are talking about a guy you have had for a year and saw play most every day. You also have an evaluator who used to be a pretty good SS himself. If Ozzie isn't ready to have Juan play SS everyday, then I am comfortable with that evaluation and would put more stock in it than your message board rants.Ritchie and Koch played for another team just as Vizquel did. You can say the same thing for Uribe, but he didn't come at the risk/expense that Vizquel likely will. Most importantly though, Vizquel at last year's level, would be a downgrade from Uribe at short.

Fixing things that aren't broken is something Williams is famous for.

Wealz
10-29-2004, 03:18 PM
Rex is absolutely correct. While Vizquel's age is something to worry about, he is an outstanding #2 hitter. Makes contact, hits for a decently high average, has decent speed, etc...
Vizquel's age is not only something to worry about, it is the basis on which he should not be signed for the dollars he's commanding. Carlton Fisk is a HOF catcher and he's a free-agent too.

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2004, 03:23 PM
Because Vizquel is the perfect two-hole hitter for this lineup? He'll get most of his AB's from the left side. He can control the bat. Doesn't strike out much. He led the AL in sacrifice bunts last year with 20 and added another 6 sac flies. Great situational hitter.

I can definitely see why you wouldn't want him batting 2nd. I would much rather have Rowand hitting second. Vizquel has no power to speak of and isn't going to have nearly as many extra base hits. His BA is nothing special and he doesn't have much speed left. Rowand has a lot more doubles in a lot fewer AB, will hit the occasional HR and generally will drive the ball better. He's going to do a much better job of either driving in the leadoff hitter or at least getting him to 3rd.

Rex Hudler
10-29-2004, 03:23 PM
Ritchie and Koch played for another team just as Vizquel did. You can say the same thing for Uribe, but he didn't come at the risk/expense that Vizquel likely will. Most importantly though, Vizquel at last year's level, would be a downgrade from Uribe at short.

Fixing things that aren't broken is something Williams is famous for.
You keep missing the point so I will type slower this time.

If the Sox acquire Vizquel or any SS this offseason, it is because of their lack of faith in Uribe to handle the job. That is the evaluation that counts here. You keep saying Uribe is better, but the Sox don't seem to think so.

If you don't like Vizquel and want to get a better SS, then fine. If the payroll is there, I have no problem with that. But to argue that Uribe is better is a pointless argument when the Sox don't have that kind of faith in him. Once again, I don't claim Ozzie is right all the time, but I will trust his judgement in evaluating a SS, especially one he has seen play every day for the last year.

Read this twice, perhaps you will finally get it.

What am I thinking?? Miracles don't happen in the middle of a Friday afternoon.

Rex Hudler
10-29-2004, 03:24 PM
I would much rather have Rowand hitting second. Vizquel has no power to speak of and isn't going to have nearly as many extra base hits. His BA is nothing special and he doesn't have much speed left. Rowand has a lot more doubles in a lot fewer AB, will hit the occasional HR and generally will drive the ball better. He's going to do a much better job of either driving in the leadoff hitter or at least getting him to 3rd.
Umm, that is not the role of most two-hole hitters. And not what the Sox need.

fuzzy_patters
10-29-2004, 03:26 PM
These are the 2004 numbers of 4 possible middle infields combinations for next year. Which infield looks best?

Infield #1
Player A .291 BA .353 OBP .388 SLG 76% SBP .982 FP/SS 4.05 RFg/SS
Player B .283 BA .327 OBP .506 SLG 45% SBP .984 FP/2B 4.85 RFg/2b

Infield #2
Player A .283 BA .327 OBP .506 SLG 45% SBP .972 FP/SS 4.82 RFg/SS
Player B .262 BA .343 OBP .323 SLG 73% SBP .990 FP/2B 4.20 RFg/2B

Infield #3
Player A .291 BA .353 OBP .388 SLG 76% SBP .982 FP/SS 4.05 RFg/SS
Player B .262 BA .343 OBP .323 SLT 73% SBP .990 FP/2B 4.20 RFg/2B

Infield #4
Player A .216 BA .287 OBP .473 SLG 57% SBP .965 FP/SS 4.58 RFg/SS
Player B .262 BA .343 OBP .323 SLT 73% SBP .990 FP/2B 4.20 RFg/2B

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2004, 03:26 PM
Umm, that is not the role of most two-hole hitters. And not what the Sox need.I beg to differ. That's EXACTLY what you want your two-hole hitter to do.
Leadoff: Get 'em on
2nd: Get 'em over
3rd: Get 'em in

MRKARNO
10-29-2004, 03:28 PM
You think roughly $2.5 million a season is too high for a gold glove SS who would fit perfectly in the two-hole?

No I don't. I thought you meant per year. At that price, I'm all in favor.

rdivaldi
10-29-2004, 03:30 PM
Vizquel's age is not only something to worry about, it is the basis on which he should not be signed for the dollars he's commanding. Carlton Fisk is a HOF catcher and he's a free-agent too.Well, let's not get ridiculous Wealz. But I do agree with you, the signing would definitely depend on how much $$$ he'd want. If he's asking for $5 mil a year, forget it. I'm advocating that we need at least 2 quality veteran arms for our bullpen if we intend to compete in 2005, and we can't afford that if we spend a ton for a SS.

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2004, 03:30 PM
These are the 2004 numbers of 4 possible middle infields combinations for next year. Which infield looks best?

Infield #1
Player A .291 BA .353 OBP .388 SLG 76% SBP .982 FP/SS 4.05 RFg/SS
Player B .283 BA .327 OBP .506 SLG 45% SBP .984 FP/2B 4.85 RFg/2b

Infield #2
Player A .283 BA .327 OBP .506 SLG 45% SBP .972 FP/SS 4.82 FP/SS
Player B .262 BA .343 OBP .323 SLG 73% SBP .990 FP/2B 4.20 RFg/2B

Infield #3
Player A .291 BA .353 OBP .388 SLG 76% SBP .982 FP/SS 4.05 RFg/SS
Player B .262 BA .343 OBP .323 SLT 73% SBP .990 FP/2B 4.20 RFg/2B

Infield #4
Player A .216 BA .287 OBP .473 SLG 57% SBP .965 FP/SS 4.58 RFg/SS
Player B .262 BA .343 OBP .323 SLT 73% SBP .990 FP/2B 4.20 RFg/2BDo I have an unlimited amount of money to spend? If so, the answer is probably none of the above. I'll go out and get two better guys altogether. But of course, money does matter. So after eliminating #4, the rest are close enough that I'll take the cheapest one and use the money left over for pitching.

longshot7
10-29-2004, 03:33 PM
These are the 2004 numbers of 4 possible middle infields combinations for next year. Which infield looks best?

Infield #1
Player A .291 BA .353 OBP .388 SLG 76% SBP .982 FP/SS 4.05 RFg/SS
Player B .283 BA .327 OBP .506 SLG 45% SBP .984 FP/2B 4.85 RFg/2b

Infield #2
Player A .283 BA .327 OBP .506 SLG 45% SBP .972 FP/SS 4.82 FP/SS
Player B .262 BA .343 OBP .323 SLG 73% SBP .990 FP/2B 4.20 RFg/2B

Infield #3
Player A .291 BA .353 OBP .388 SLG 76% SBP .982 FP/SS 4.05 RFg/SS
Player B .262 BA .343 OBP .323 SLT 73% SBP .990 FP/2B 4.20 RFg/2B

Infield #4
Player A .216 BA .287 OBP .473 SLG 57% SBP .965 FP/SS 4.58 RFg/SS
Player B .262 BA .343 OBP .323 SLT 73% SBP .990 FP/2B 4.20 RFg/2B
umm............ defense?

Wealz
10-29-2004, 03:36 PM
You keep missing the point so I will type slower this time.

If the Sox acquire Vizquel or any SS this offseason, it is because of their lack of faith in Uribe to handle the job. That is the evaluation that counts here. You keep saying Uribe is better, but the Sox don't seem to think so.

If you don't like Vizquel and want to get a better SS, then fine. If the payroll is there, I have no problem with that. But to argue that Uribe is better is a pointless argument when the Sox don't have that kind of faith in him. Once again, I don't claim Ozzie is right all the time, but I will trust his judgement in evaluating a SS, especially one he has seen play every day for the last year.

Read this twice, perhaps you will finally get it.

What am I thinking?? Miracles don't happen in the middle of a Friday afternoon.
Are you in favor of signing Vizquel? And why do you trust Guillen's judgement when evaluating a SS?

Rex Hudler
10-29-2004, 03:36 PM
I beg to differ. That's EXACTLY what you want your two-hole hitter to do.
Leadoff: Get 'em on
2nd: Get 'em over
3rd: Get 'em in
Get 'em over........... that is EXACTLY what Omar does well.

Rex Hudler
10-29-2004, 03:39 PM
Are you in favor of signing Vizquel? And why do you trust Guillen's judgement when evaluating a SS?
Unless the Sox can fit a better SS (offensively) without sacrificing defense into their payroll, then yes, I think Vizquel would be a perfect fit. I have no reason not to trust Ozzie's evaluation of a SS. He played the position for a long time in this game and is a respected baseball guy. I would be inclined to believe that Ozzie could evaluate a SS.

OEO Magglio
10-29-2004, 03:40 PM
I beg to differ. That's EXACTLY what you want your two-hole hitter to do.
Leadoff: Get 'em on
2nd: Get 'em over
3rd: Get 'em in
Exactly, arow will get on base more then Omar and Omar is much better at bunting or moving runners along then arow. Even if Omar liked leading off I'd rather have arow there and omar batting 2nd, just makes more sense imo.

Wealz
10-29-2004, 03:41 PM
Get 'em over........... that is EXACTLY what Omar does well.
Now that's an endorsement and worth $5M over 2 years ....

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2004, 03:41 PM
Get 'em over........... that is EXACTLY what Omar does well.And it's what Rowand does BETTER. I'd much rather have a guy who will hit a few extra base hits than a singles hitter who's just going to get him to 2nd or maybe 3rd if he's lucky. Rowand is a much better #2 hitter than Vizquel. The Sox don't need a #2 hitter. They need a leadoff hitter. If they're not getting Vizquel to do that, I just don't see the point.

hitlesswonder
10-29-2004, 03:43 PM
I would much rather have Rowand hitting second. Vizquel has no power to speak of and isn't going to have nearly as many extra base hits. His BA is nothing special and he doesn't have much speed left. Rowand has a lot more doubles in a lot fewer AB, will hit the occasional HR and generally will drive the ball better. He's going to do a much better job of either driving in the leadoff hitter or at least getting him to 3rd.
Rowand actually showed a lot of power last year (something like 38 doubles to go with the 20-something HRs in fewer at bats than he would get in a full season of starting). His slugging pct. was great. If he comes close to hitting like that again, I'd rather he wasn't batting leadoff.

As for Vizquel, signing him for around 2 million a season makes the idea more appealing. But the Sox still nead to find a leadoff hitter somewhere. Too bad they can't get Jason Kendall without paying off his contract...

OEO Magglio
10-29-2004, 03:44 PM
And it's what Rowand does BETTER. I'd much rather have a guy who will hit a few extra base hits than a singles hitter who's just going to get him to 2nd or maybe 3rd if he's lucky. Rowand is a much better #2 hitter than Vizquel. The Sox don't need a #2 hitter. They need a leadoff hitter. If they're not getting Vizquel to do that, I just don't see the point.
I completely disagree. Why can't arow be a leadoff hitter, he has a high obp and is the best base stealer we have. We need another top of the order hitter doesn't necessarily have to be a leadoff hitter. Arow imo is a pretty bad number 2 hitter, he's absolutely awful at bunting, and he's not very good at moving runners along. I'd rather have aaron batting first or somewhere down in the lineup. Vizquel is one of the best two hitters in baseball, the two hitter has the most responsibilities in the batting order and omar's batted their for his entire career, he knows exactly how to go about that spot.

Wealz
10-29-2004, 03:45 PM
Unless the Sox can fit a better SS (offensively) without sacrificing defense into their payroll, then yes, I think Vizquel would be a perfect fit. I have no reason not to trust Ozzie's evaluation of a SS. He played the position for a long time in this game and is a respected baseball guy. I would be inclined to believe that Ozzie could evaluate a SS.
Vizquel doesn't get this team closer to a World Championship. Anything over $1-2M committed to him is a waste.

OEO Magglio
10-29-2004, 03:46 PM
Vizquel doesn't get this team closer to a World Championship. Anything over $1-2M committed to him is a waste.
Why is that, cause he's old?? He's a solid defender, good top of the order hitter, can bunt, can still run a bit, handles the bat great, he's the exact type of player ozzie wants.

hitlesswonder
10-29-2004, 03:47 PM
And it's what Rowand does BETTER. I'd much rather have a guy who will hit a few extra base hits than a singles hitter who's just going to get him to 2nd or maybe 3rd if he's lucky. Rowand is a much better #2 hitter than Vizquel. The Sox don't need a #2 hitter. They need a leadoff hitter. If they're not getting Vizquel to do that, I just don't see the point.
In the context of who they'll be playing for, it would be better if Vizquel hits second. The #2 guy will get called on to sacrifice a lot with Guillen managing. Assuming Rowand hits even in the neighborhood of what he did last season, I rather give up outs off of Vizquel's bat than Rowand's.

I think I need to stop adding to this thread. I'm starting to write about Vizquel like they've already signed him...

longshot7
10-29-2004, 03:52 PM
Are you in favor of signing Vizquel? And why do you trust Guillen's judgement when evaluating a SS?
uh... maybe because he played there, and was pretty good too?

Wealz
10-29-2004, 03:52 PM
Why is that, cause he's old?? He's a solid defender, good top of the order hitter, can bunt, can still run a bit, handles the bat great, he's the exact type of player ozzie wants.
Exactly because he's old. The question that should be asked before any multi-year commitment is made to a player by the Sox is "Will this player be part of this team when we're contensing for a world championship?" Vizquel clearly won't be.

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2004, 03:54 PM
I completely disagree. Why can't arow be a leadoff hitter, he has a high obp and is the best base stealer we have. We need another top of the order hitter doesn't necessarily have to be a leadoff hitter. Arow imo is a pretty bad number 2 hitter, he's absolutely awful at bunting, and he's not very good at moving runners along. I'd rather have aaron batting first or somewhere down in the lineup. Vizquel is one of the best two hitters in baseball, the two hitter has the most responsibilities in the batting order and omar's batted their for his entire career, he knows exactly how to go about that spot.Rowand is the best base stealer we have all right...with 17. Doesn't that tell you something? Is Vizquel the answer to that problem? Granted, Rowand was an awful bunter last year. But if I had to bet, I'd bet that Rowand will come into ST one of the BEST bunters on the team. He's probably working on his bunting right now. And he had one of the top SLG in all of MLB, most of which was doubles, not HR. That doesn't sound like someone who's not very good at moving runners along. Those doubles are great when you're leading off, but they're even better when you're hitting second and there's a guy on base ahead of you.

rdivaldi
10-29-2004, 03:59 PM
"Will this player be part of this team when we're contensing for a world championship?" Vizquel clearly won't be.
We won't be contending for any championships with our current bullpen...

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2004, 04:22 PM
We won't be contending for any championships with our current bullpen...EXACTLY!! Which will give the biggest benefit, Omar Vizquel or a good middle reliever? I'd spend the money on BP help.

rdivaldi
10-29-2004, 04:27 PM
EXACTLY!! Which will give the biggest benefit, Omar Vizquel or a good middle reliever? I'd spend the money on BP help.
I probably won't have too many supporters, but I think our #1 priority this offseason should be to shore up the bullpen. Steve Kline and Scott Williamson (unless his elbow is not healed) would look fabulous in White Sox uni's next year.

hitlesswonder
10-29-2004, 05:09 PM
I probably won't have too many supporters, but I think our #1 priority this offseason should be to shore up the bullpen. Steve Kline and Scott Williamson (unless his elbow is not healed) would look fabulous in White Sox uni's next year.
I'll support that notion. I think pitching should the #1 priority, particularly a bonafide major league pitcher to complete the rotation. Adding a solid arm to the bullpen is probably just as important. Shingo was great, but he's no sure thing, and the Sox need a reliever that can close if he falls apart. I don't know if I think they need to bring 2 veterans. I think Politte, Shingo, and Marte aren't bad, and picking one or two from Diaz, Munoz, Cotts, and Adkins might be alright. But they definitely need to bring in at least one quality reliever.

1917
10-29-2004, 05:10 PM
I like Omar IF the price is right, he is a sure handed SS and Uribe can play 2nd....Uribe worries me though, his avg went South in the clutch period faster then a speeding bullet....his #'s in the end look OK on paper, but this guy was hitting .340 and above for a long time, then spent time on the bench....but I would bring in Omar in a heartbeat, Again, for the right price....upgrade over Valentin.....We can't afford Nomar, Edgar, or Orlanda, he's the next best....As far as pitching, I would love Big Unit, but not at the price of a Carlos Lee, with Maggs good as gone, we need Carlos bat in there....Pavono would be ideal, but he wants to stay in the NL....Milton will get drilled in the Cell I think, I would like Russ Ortiz and of course Pedro...Perez doesn't do anything for me, especially at a high price, or trade....Radke is a name I like, steady as they come and a Vet, but he is getting up thee in age as well

Jerome
10-29-2004, 05:19 PM
The trolls and idiots who bash moves KW hasn't even made yet really make me laugh. I'd take Vizquel in a heartbeat. An IF of Crede, Vizquel, Uribe and PK would be rock solid. Also Vizquel handles the bat well from the top of the order from both sides of the plate, something we desperately need.

I wish people would stop trolling for fights about every single potential move. This would be a great way to start the offseason.


What does "rock solid" mean? If this is the definition of rock solid, I want an infield that is pillow-soft

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2004, 05:28 PM
I like Omar IF the price is right, he is a sure handed SS and Uribe can play 2nd....Uribe worries me though, his avg went South in the clutch period faster then a speeding bullet....his #'s in the end look OK on paper, but this guy was hitting .340 and above for a long time, then spent time on the bench....but I would bring in Omar in a heartbeat, Again, for the right price....upgrade over Valentin.....We can't afford Nomar, Edgar, or Orlanda, he's the next best....As far as pitching, I would love Big Unit, but not at the price of a Carlos Lee, with Maggs good as gone, we need Carlos bat in there....Pavono would be ideal, but he wants to stay in the NL....Milton will get drilled in the Cell I think, I would like Russ Ortiz and of course Pedro...Perez doesn't do anything for me, especially at a high price, or trade....Radke is a name I like, steady as they come and a Vet, but he is getting up thee in age as wellSo offensively you're replacing Harris with Vizquel. But if you look at their OBP (more important than BA for a top-of-the-order hitter), Vizquel is only 10 pts better. That's an insignificant improvement, and you're sacrificing a lot of team speed to get it. Defensively, Vizquel is not the Gold Glover he once was, Harris is solid at 2B and you're wasting Uribe's arm at 2B. So you've spent $2-3M to get a minimal upgrade over what you've got. For a team with the pitching needs the Sox have, you need every dollar for that. A $2-3M middle reliever will have a much bigger impact.

santo=dorf
10-29-2004, 05:36 PM
Now that's an endorsement and worth $5M over 2 years ....Did you see our team bunting this year?!?! It says alot when Timo Perez is the only guy who can get a bunt down.

santo=dorf
10-29-2004, 05:40 PM
EXACTLY!! Which will give the biggest benefit, Omar Vizquel or a good middle reliever? I'd spend the money on BP help.I'll take the guy who plays great defense and can bunt 150 games a year over a guy who pitches 60-70 innings a year. We need to improve our defense and small ball before our bullpen.

Wealz
10-29-2004, 05:42 PM
Did you see our team bunting this year?!?! It says alot when Timo Perez is the only guy who can a bunt down.
I wish this team's inability to bunt was all that stood between it and a world championship.

santo=dorf
10-29-2004, 05:42 PM
You keep missing the point so I will type slower this time.

If the Sox acquire Vizquel or any SS this offseason, it is because of their lack of faith in Uribe to handle the job. That is the evaluation that counts here. You keep saying Uribe is better, but the Sox don't seem to think so.

If you don't like Vizquel and want to get a better SS, then fine. If the payroll is there, I have no problem with that. But to argue that Uribe is better is a pointless argument when the Sox don't have that kind of faith in him. Once again, I don't claim Ozzie is right all the time, but I will trust his judgement in evaluating a SS, especially one he has seen play every day for the last year.

Read this twice, perhaps you will finally get it.

What am I thinking?? Miracles don't happen in the middle of a Friday afternoon.
Rex, don't you think if the Sox get Vizquel it could be due to their lack of faith in Harris at second? Do you think Uribe can play SS 150+ games a year?

SoxxoS
10-29-2004, 05:54 PM
First off, if we bring any more ex-Indians from the 1997 WS run I am going to throw up. Seriously. We are missing, you know...the players IN THEIR PRIME (Manny Ramierez) from that team.

"I don't even know half of these guys, and the ones I do know are way past their prime."
"Most of these guys never had a prime."
"This guy here is dead."
"Cross him off then."

Seriously, we might have the worst offensive infield in baseball if we add Vizquel. Crede-Vizquel-Uribe and Gload or Konerko? That's saying something. And when I say the worst offensive infield in baseball, I am being dead serious.

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2004, 06:07 PM
From the Stats Inc. scouting report on Omar Vizquel:

"...must address his problems hitting righthanded. His batting average as a righty has slipped on an annual basis..."

"...might have lost a tick in the field but he's still quick..."

"...has a presence that steadies others on the field."

"...still has plus speed but no longer is a major threat on the bases."

Oh, wait. My mistake. Those are from Robbie Alomar's scouting report. He's a good bunter, too. Plus, he's YOUNGER than Vizquel. Why don't we get him???

oldcomiskey
10-29-2004, 06:19 PM
Yes.

Uribe is a better SS and player than Vizquel.
and then he woke up

santo=dorf
10-29-2004, 06:23 PM
From the Stats Inc. scouting report on Omar Vizquel:

"...must address his problems hitting righthanded. His batting average as a righty has slipped on an annual basis..."

"...might have lost a tick in the field but he's still quick..."

"...has a presence that steadies others on the field."

"...still has plus speed but no longer is a major threat on the bases."

Oh, wait. My mistake. Those are from Robbie Alomar's scouting report. He's a good bunter, too. Plus, he's YOUNGER than Vizquel. Why don't we get him???Well what does Vizquel's scouting repot looks like compared to Robbie's?:?:

dickallen15
10-29-2004, 06:40 PM
From the Stats Inc. scouting report on Omar Vizquel:

"...must address his problems hitting righthanded. His batting average as a righty has slipped on an annual basis..."

"...might have lost a tick in the field but he's still quick..."

"...has a presence that steadies others on the field."

"...still has plus speed but no longer is a major threat on the bases."

Oh, wait. My mistake. Those are from Robbie Alomar's scouting report. He's a good bunter, too. Plus, he's YOUNGER than Vizquel. Why don't we get him???
You might want to look at actual performance rather than a scouting report. Vizquel has no power, but he hit as many homeruns as Carl Everett this past season. Omar won't have to hire a trainer to get in shape, he is a professional, and remains in shape. Vizquel also would have led the Sox in stolen bases, and can handle the bat. He is an exceptional bunter, one of the best, if not the best in the league. His glove is still outstanding, and still has his quickness. Those worried about a Robbie Alomar drop off, shouldn't. He was never a 20 hr, 130 run guy to begin with, and Omar plays with passion. If he wants to be here, the Sox should sign this guy. He still walks a decent amount of times, and would be excellent to have around for a couple years, to perform, and help groom Uribe, who could probably learn a lot from him. He is a leader, it even says that on his Stats scouting report.

dickallen15
10-29-2004, 06:45 PM
Exactly because he's old. The question that should be asked before any multi-year commitment is made to a player by the Sox is "Will this player be part of this team when we're contensing for a world championship?" Vizquel clearly won't be.
The AL Central is sitting there for the taking. The White Sox are not rebuilding, they are trying to win now. Improve the pitching, and make the playoffs, anything can happen.

pissonthecubs
10-29-2004, 07:31 PM
George Ofman on the SCORE tonight says White Sox sources told him that they want Vizquel as the starting SS next year and that Vizquel wants to come here.

Ugh. What a terrible move this would be. If this indeed does happen I'll lose whatever faith I have left in the current front office.

Ofman also said the Sox will get a left-handed starter. My guess would be Odalis Perez.
So by the Sox getting a very good defensive player, even though he is older to replace a defensive suck-fest in Jose Valentin is the move that will make you lose your faith in this White Sox front office? how did it take you this long. i lost my faith in Kenny Williams when he told us fans that when Ozzie what hired as manager, we would see a team of "grinders". what we got was a team of the same HR hitters. i read the Frank Thomas thread and saw just how much Frank love there is, and i'm surprised. i have none. if he was gone tomorrow, i would be fine with that. i want to see the mix of hitters with the small ball guys. PK and CLee are guys i would keep because of them being younger.
back on my first topic, i have grown tired of KW, and i think a change upstairs will help this team get back much faster with a new GM that will build up the farm system again, and will get rid of a Joe Crede in a trade and not a Miguel Olivo.

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2004, 09:24 PM
You might want to look at actual performance rather than a scouting report. Vizquel has no power, but he hit as many homeruns as Carl Everett this past season. Omar won't have to hire a trainer to get in shape, he is a professional, and remains in shape. Vizquel also would have led the Sox in stolen bases, and can handle the bat. He is an exceptional bunter, one of the best, if not the best in the league. His glove is still outstanding, and still has his quickness. Those worried about a Robbie Alomar drop off, shouldn't. He was never a 20 hr, 130 run guy to begin with, and Omar plays with passion. If he wants to be here, the Sox should sign this guy. He still walks a decent amount of times, and would be excellent to have around for a couple years, to perform, and help groom Uribe, who could probably learn a lot from him. He is a leader, it even says that on his Stats scouting report.Everything you said about Vizquel could have just as easily been applied to Robbie Alomar. That's what this is: Robbie Alomar Redux. Wait and see.

Tragg
10-30-2004, 01:09 AM
Vizquel is better than anything we have now, so at a reasonable price for a one or two year stopgap, it's okay. But the money adds up: $4 mill here, $4 mill there (wasted with a truly boneheaded trade for Everett) and all of a sudden, you've just paid for what could have been a Perez or another starter.

I think this team is emminently retoolable with some veteran talent that can pitch, catch and get on base without the need of walkers in their immediate future. If we can sign a FA, if we can package a starter with "prospects" (which we should be able to do) we could take care of some of our needs like pitching and a lead-off hitter.

TheBull19
10-30-2004, 08:24 AM
You're nuts! If the Sox are trying to sign a free agent SS, then it is obvious they do not think Uribe is ready to step in full-time at SS. If they don't have the confidence in their own player who they dealt with everyday (especially w/ Ozzie a former SS), then there is no reason to think it is POSSIBLE for your statement to be true.


I'd disagree. I think the sox believe they need a good middle infielder, and since there are a number of good SS free agents and no very good 2b options, it makes sense to go for Vizquel. I don't think it has anything to do with a lack of confidence in Uribe.

Brian26
10-30-2004, 11:47 AM
The AL Central is sitting there for the taking.
Boy, that's the same thing we've heard every year since 2001.

Mickster
10-30-2004, 11:51 AM
Boy, that's the same thing we've heard every year since 2001.
I used to believe it. Recently, I feel that the team needs some drastic changes....:(:

batmanZoSo
10-30-2004, 12:53 PM
Yes.


Uribe is a better SS and player than Vizquel.
So? Uribe will play second, big deal. And I think Uribe's a big asset at second with his arm. Very rare to have one that strong on that side, which will help us turn a lot of 6-4-3s. Vizquel is a perfect fit for now. We still need a catcher, though. (and of course address the rotation, but this would be a good start for the lineup).

Ol' No. 2
10-30-2004, 01:27 PM
So? Uribe will play second, big deal. And I think Uribe's a big asset at second with his arm. Very rare to have one that strong on that side, which will help us turn a lot of 6-4-3s. Vizquel is a perfect fit for now. We still need a catcher, though. (and of course address the rotation, but this would be a good start for the lineup).So with a team with almost no speed, you bench the fastest guy you have for a marginal improvement at SS. And for this you spend money that could be put to better use shoring up the bullpen. Makes no sense to me.

Mickster
10-30-2004, 01:32 PM
So with a team with almost no speed, you bench the fastest guy you have for a marginal improvement at SS. And for this you spend money that could be put to better use shoring up the bullpen. Makes no sense to me.I generally agree with you but have a problem with the "fastest guy" reference. What good is speed if he doesn't use it?

SoxxoS
10-30-2004, 01:33 PM
I think Uribe is more an asset of the left side of the infield where he can show off his plus arm. Moving to second kind of negates one of his better skills.

kitekrazy
10-30-2004, 01:35 PM
I'm not getting my hopes up on getting anyone. Without Jose V. and Maggs that frees up some money for FA. I wonder if they will do like last year. Be cheap in the offseason and apply a midseason bandaid giving some Sox fans a sense of possibly winning the division which all it really does keep them out of 3rd place.

Offseason baseball discussions on "who we're going to get" can only bring depression to Sox fans unless your talking fantasy league. That's all we got is fantasy. We are cursed. Not from a player but an owner.

Ol' No. 2
10-30-2004, 01:38 PM
I generally agree with you but have a problem with the "fastest guy" reference. What good is speed if he doesn't use it?What do you mean "doesn't use it"? There's more to speed than stealing bases. Willie goes from first to home on a double faster than anybody on the team. I read bringing in Raines as an indictment against Santana for not properly coaching him. With good coaching, he could steal 40+ bases a year, but he won't do it from the bench.

Mickster
10-30-2004, 01:44 PM
What do you mean "doesn't use it"? There's more to speed than stealing bases. Willie goes from first to home on a double faster than anybody on the team. I read bringing in Raines as an indictment against Santana for not properly coaching him. With good coaching, he could steal 40+ bases a year, but he won't do it from the bench.
I agree that there is more to speed than stealing bases. But, as a top of the order guy, stealing bases is exactly what we need from him. Watching Beltran in the NLCS showed me what speed at the top of the order really means. Seemed like every time he got to 1st, be it a single or walk, you could pencil him for a double. I hope that Raines shows him the ropes....

sircaffey1
10-30-2004, 02:01 PM
What do you mean "doesn't use it"? There's more to speed than stealing bases. Willie goes from first to home on a double faster than anybody on the team. I read bringing in Raines as an indictment against Santana for not properly coaching him. With good coaching, he could steal 40+ bases a year, but he won't do it from the bench.

So what? You want to sacrifice offense for some speed on the bases that CAN'T even steal a base? Until Willie learns how to utilize his speed then he should not be starting.

Willie was a hack at the plate for most of last season. I couldn't watch him at times. And he was an even bigger hack trying to steal bases. Just because he has speed doesnt mean you put him out there for that reason.

Ol' No. 2
10-31-2004, 01:02 AM
So what? You want to sacrifice offense for some speed on the bases that CAN'T even steal a base? Until Willie learns how to utilize his speed then he should not be starting.

Willie was a hack at the plate for most of last season. I couldn't watch him at times. And he was an even bigger hack trying to steal bases. Just because he has speed doesnt mean you put him out there for that reason.If Willie is a hack, then Vizquel is a hack. Their OBP is only .010 different. But at least Willie is a much cheaper hack.

sircaffey1
10-31-2004, 02:09 AM
If Willie is a hack, then Vizquel is a hack. Their OBP is only .010 different. But at least Willie is a much cheaper hack.

Yes and you failed to mention that their AVE were .029 apart and their OPS were .076 apart.

Wow Willie got on base 34% of the time. Bring something else to the table as well. As of right now, Willie doesnt bring anything else to the table, except for your beloved speed that he doesnt use to his advantage.

SoxxoS
10-31-2004, 02:37 AM
Yes and you failed to mention that their AVE were .029 apart and their OPS were .076 apart.

Wow Willie got on base 34% of the time. Bring something else to the table as well. As of right now, Willie doesnt bring anything else to the table, except for your beloved speed that he doesnt use to his advantage.
That isn't exactly a sterling endorsement....

batmanZoSo
10-31-2004, 03:04 AM
:threadsucks
Just on the grounds that we're debating who's better: Willie Harris or Omar Vizquel. A hall of famer (yes, if Ozzie Smith is one) or a four-A player. I don't care if one makes 3.5 million more than the other. Vizquel compared to Harris is well worth it.

We really gotta get away from this kind of thinking...buying into garbage players like Willie Harris. Guys who might be our full-time starters because mgt. won't spend money on better ones. It's like we're conditioned to accept this s###.

cburns
10-31-2004, 03:43 AM
I'm just sick of players on this team being too streaky, and not consistently consistent (does that make sense?). Willie Harris would go 6-6..then 0-12. Harris doesn't create enough trouble..Get Vizquel...and if you don't spend that money on the SS, please get help for the bullpen

LAWSfan
10-31-2004, 03:45 AM
:threadsucks
Just on the grounds that we're debating who's better: Willie Harris or Omar Vizquel. A hall of famer (yes, if Ozzie Smith is one) or a four-A player. I don't care if one makes 3.5 million more than the other. Vizquel compared to Harris is well worth it.

We really gotta get away from this kind of thinking...buying into garbage players like Willie Harris. Guys who might be our full-time starters because mgt. won't spend money on better ones. It's like we're conditioned to accept this s###.
I wouldn't call Harris a garbage player. But he doesn't match up to Omar. I would take Omar in a heartbeat. Even if he's lost some range and got hurt last year. He's still great with the glove and one of the top 5 SS with the glove in baseball.

I seem to remember a SS who was pretty damn good with the glove and helped us to some of our best seasons. Ozzie something.

MisterB
10-31-2004, 04:08 AM
So what? You want to sacrifice offense for some speed on the bases that CAN'T even steal a base? Until Willie learns how to utilize his speed then he should not be starting.
Willie had 19 SB's which led the team while playing only 75% of the time. Only 12 AL players stole more bases than he did. How many SB's would he need to be considered 'able to steal a base'?

Mohoney
10-31-2004, 04:29 AM
Wow Willie got on base 34% of the time.
I wish the immortal Joe Crede would do the same.

I just have a bad feeling that I will be forcefed the Adkins-Cotts duo in the late innings next year when neither one deserves to be in a major league bullpen. These two guys are WAY more putrid than Willie Harris could ever be, and I don't want our "financially restricted" team spending money on Vizquel that could be spent on pitching.

Vizquel (and any other middle infielder, for that matter) is a WANT. Not a NEED.

This team was 2nd to last in the AL in ERA, and dead last in home runs allowed. Since our pitching coach seems sanctified by upper management, we're going to have to blame the pitchers themselves for this failure, meaning that the bullpen needs significant retooling if we are to compete with the other teams in this division.

Of course, if payroll increases to the $80-85 million range, we could sign Vizquel, a FA starter, retool the bullpen, and re-sign Maggs so there is not a gaping hole in RF.

Flight #24
10-31-2004, 08:17 AM
Of course, if payroll increases to the $80-85 million range, we could sign Vizquel, a FA starter, retool the bullpen, and re-sign Maggs so there is not a gaping hole in RF.
How is having $14mil on the DL (or having Mags play RF in crutches) not a "gaping hole"?:?:

Ol' No. 2
10-31-2004, 11:52 AM
Just on the grounds that we're debating who's better: Willie Harris or Omar Vizquel. A hall of famer (yes, if Ozzie Smith is one) or a four-A player. I don't care if one makes 3.5 million more than the other. Vizquel compared to Harris is well worth it.

We really gotta get away from this kind of thinking...buying into garbage players like Willie Harris. Guys who might be our full-time starters because mgt. won't spend money on better ones. It's like we're conditioned to accept this s###.Well why don't we just get Ozzie Smith? I hear he's available. Let's get Robbie Alomar, too!

Omar Vizquel WAS a solid player. About 5 years ago. If you can fire up your time machine and get THAT Omar Vizquel, I'm all for it. But the Omar Vizquel of today is on the decline, and not better than what the Sox already have. Quite possibly not as good.

SEALgep
10-31-2004, 11:58 AM
[QUOTE=Ol' No. 2]Well why don't we just get Ozzie Smith? I hear he's available. Let's get Robbie Alomar, too!

Omar Vizquel WAS a solid player. About 5 years ago. QUOTE]

YEAR
2004
G 148
AB567
R82
H165
2B28
3B3
HR7
RBI59
BB57
SO62
SB19
CS6
BA.291
OBP.353
SLG.388
OPS741

Ol' No. 2
10-31-2004, 11:59 AM
[QUOTE=Ol' No. 2]Well why don't we just get Ozzie Smith? I hear he's available. Let's get Robbie Alomar, too!

Omar Vizquel WAS a solid player. About 5 years ago. QUOTE]

YEARGABRH2B3BHRRBIBBSOSBCSBAOBPSLGOPS2004148567821 652837595762196.291.353.388.741 STAT BREAKDOWNCAREER21387819112921473485466715785794318 129.275.341.358.699Youwanttorunthatbymeagain?

PaleHoseGeorge
10-31-2004, 12:01 PM
Well why don't we just get Ozzie Smith? I hear he's available. Let's get Robbie Alomar, too!

Omar Vizquel WAS a solid player. About 5 years ago. If you can fire up your time machine and get THAT Omar Vizquel, I'm all for it. But the Omar Vizquel of today is on the decline, and not better than what the Sox already have. Quite possibly not as good.
This is what it has come to for Sox Fans nearly 24 years after Reinsdorf promised a "first-class" organization... whether acquiring a ballplayer in decline is still an upgrade over the piles of **** we already have.

We need gosox41 to tell us whether this makes economic sense for Reinsdorf's wallet. That's all that is left for any of us to cheer for anymore.
:(:

:reinsy
"And the good news is I just saved a ton of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico."

:ohno
"My God, when will this man finally die?"

Shingotime!!
10-31-2004, 12:03 PM
Ok, say Jerry died. (Riensdorf) Who would own the team? Mabey he will give 100 million to the Beltran-Pavano-Johnson-Martinez-Ordonez fund in he will:D:

SEALgep
10-31-2004, 12:05 PM
Youwanttorunthatbymeagain?Had to edit it, but the point is, he's hardly on a decline. He's been consistently solid.

Mohoney
10-31-2004, 01:49 PM
How is having $14mil on the DL (or having Mags play RF in crutches) not a "gaping hole"?:?:
Of course, this would only be after doctors check him out and clear him for baseball activities. Sorry I didn't include that in my post earlier.

batmanZoSo
10-31-2004, 02:39 PM
Well why don't we just get Ozzie Smith? I hear he's available. Let's get Robbie Alomar, too!

Omar Vizquel WAS a solid player. About 5 years ago. If you can fire up your time machine and get THAT Omar Vizquel, I'm all for it. But the Omar Vizquel of today is on the decline, and not better than what the Sox already have. Quite possibly not as good.

I won't accept that getting Vizquel for a whopping four million (when we were paying our previous SS 5) would cripple our budget. You know, if that's the case, we might as well give up all hope right now.

Tragg
10-31-2004, 02:47 PM
I won't accept that getting Vizquel for a whopping four million (when we were paying our previous SS 5) would cripple our budget. You know, if that's the case, we might as well give up all hope right now.It won't cripple it but we have a finite amount of money to spend. Is this guy a wise use of the money?

batmanZoSo
10-31-2004, 03:03 PM
It won't cripple it but we have a finite amount of money to spend. Is this guy a wise use of the money?

Look at what's out there:

Renteria: 12 million possibly and Vizquel had a higher OPS.
Cabrera: Not a leadoff hitter by any stretch, would only add to the home-run happy problems we've been having

Harris: absolutely no power, not even doubles if you want him to get on base at a fairly decent rate. He can't seem to find a harmony between both. Let's face it, a guy who's only good for singles and a .260 average MUST steal 50 bases, not 15. And he can't bunt. On top of that, he's marginal in the field and not a very 'heady' player at all. Makes bad decisions on offense and defense. Hey, but he is "cheap." :rolleyes:

Vizquel: doesn't cost too much, can lead off well and get on base at .350, hits consistent singles and can utilize some of his pop without sacrificing BA or OBP, outstanding fielder, a leader, a very smart* baseball player (which we can really use right now), and can bunt for HITS, let alone sacrifice.

Ol' No. 2
10-31-2004, 08:22 PM
Look at what's out there:

Renteria: 12 million possibly and Vizquel had a higher OPS.
Cabrera: Not a leadoff hitter by any stretch, would only add to the home-run happy problems we've been having

Harris: absolutely no power, not even doubles if you want him to get on base at a fairly decent rate. He can't seem to find a harmony between both. Let's face it, a guy who's only good for singles and a .260 average MUST steal 50 bases, not 15. And he can't bunt. On top of that, he's marginal in the field and not a very 'heady' player at all. Makes bad decisions on offense and defense. Hey, but he is "cheap." :rolleyes:

Vizquel: doesn't cost too much, can lead off well and get on base at .350, hits consistent singles and can utilize some of his pop without sacrificing BA or OBP, outstanding fielder, a leader, a very smart* baseball player (which we can really use right now), and can bunt for HITS, let alone sacrifice.You want power? Bring back Jose Valentin.

For about the millionth time, they're looking for top-of-the-order production, which means OBP. I don't need my SS to be whacking home runs. I need him to get his ass on base as often as possible. And Vizquel's OBP was only 10 pts higher than Harris' in 2004, and that was Vizquel's best year since 2000. That 10 pts works out to getting on base ONE more time A MONTH. Big deal. And it's been declining while Harris' has been increasing.

And if you think Harris is marginal in the field, I have to wonder exactly what it is you expect. He's got great range and has a .990 FPCT. At SS, Uribe had a .983 FPCT. Vizquel was .982. Again, Vizquel's fielding has dropped off from his peak years, and with his knees, it isn't likely to return.

Does Vizquel cost too much? Is $4M too much for those extra 6 times on base over the whole season? Seems pretty steep to me. But look at it in comparative terms. It's less than Flash Gordon is getting. Which is the better deal: Spend the $4M for Vizquel to get on base MAYBE 6 more times (probably less) or spend it for a bullpen pitcher who can probably save 10+ games? If you have to think about this for more than 0.000001 second, you must be new in town.

nodiggity59
10-31-2004, 08:43 PM
You want power? Bring back Jose Valentin.

For about the millionth time, they're looking for top-of-the-order production, which means OBP. I don't need my SS to be whacking home runs. I need him to get his ass on base as often as possible. And Vizquel's OBP was only 10 pts higher than Harris' in 2004, and that was Vizquel's best year since 2000. That 10 pts works out to getting on base ONE more time A MONTH. Big deal. And it's been declining while Harris' has been increasing.

And if you think Harris is marginal in the field, I have to wonder exactly what it is you expect. He's got great range and has a .990 FPCT. At SS, Uribe had a .983 FPCT. Vizquel was .982. Again, Vizquel's fielding has dropped off from his peak years, and with his knees, it isn't likely to return.

Does Vizquel cost too much? Is $4M too much for those extra 6 times on base over the whole season? Seems pretty steep to me. But look at it in comparative terms. It's less than Flash Gordon is getting. Which is the better deal: Spend the $4M for Vizquel to get on base MAYBE 6 more times (probably less) or spend it for a bullpen pitcher who can probably save 10+ games? If you have to think about this for more than 0.000001 second, you must be new in town.
You and many other anti Vizquelers keep forgetting that Willie is not a top of the order hitter!! His production comes when he is in the 8-9 spots. He did not produce in the 1-2 holes except for May. This is what Vizquel can do.

Ol' No. 2
10-31-2004, 09:38 PM
You and many other anti Vizquelers keep forgetting that Willie is not a top of the order hitter!! His production comes when he is in the 8-9 spots. He did not produce in the 1-2 holes except for May. This is what Vizquel can do.Please explain why a .353 OBP qualifies you as a top of the order hitter and a .343 OBP does not. The difference is insignificant. No, Willie is not yet a top of the order hitter. That's the whole point. Neither is Vizqel any more. But Willie may yet become one, while Vizquel's top of the order days are behind him.

Rex Hudler
10-31-2004, 09:53 PM
Please explain why a .353 OBP qualifies you as a top of the order hitter and a .343 OBP does not. The difference is insignificant. No, Willie is not yet a top of the order hitter. That's the whole point. Neither is Vizqel any more. But Willie may yet become one, while Vizquel's top of the order days are behind him.
YOu are WAY too hung up on OBP. It is not the only measure of a player, regardless of where in the order he hits. It is a valuable tool, but that is your whole argument here. You cannot solely evaluate a player on one number.

nodiggity59
10-31-2004, 10:29 PM
Please explain why a .353 OBP qualifies you as a top of the order hitter and a .343 OBP does not. The difference is insignificant. No, Willie is not yet a top of the order hitter. That's the whole point. Neither is Vizqel any more. But Willie may yet become one, while Vizquel's top of the order days are behind him.
The point is that Willie's numbers at the top would wilt. He did not post those numbers batting at the top of the order on a consistent basis. He was often shielded from the Sox depending on him by batting lower in the order.

By contrast, Vizquel batted #2 practically the whole year. His team depended on him for top of the order production and he delivered.

Willie Harris cannot be counted on to do this. If he had been the leadoff guy or batted 2nd the whole year he still would have hit .260 or worse with much less walks cause he actually would've been pitched to. Whereas, in the bottom of the order he walked often because he barely swung. He usually tried to bunt twice, fouled one off and then either walked or got out. Pitchers would not be walking him at all if Frank Thomas or Carlos Lee had been hitting behind him, he would not have converted these missed walks into hits, and his OBP would have been .310 or .300.

MisterB
11-01-2004, 12:45 AM
The point is that Willie's numbers at the top would wilt. He did not post those numbers batting at the top of the order on a consistent basis. He was often shielded from the Sox depending on him by batting lower in the order.

By contrast, Vizquel batted #2 practically the whole year. His team depended on him for top of the order production and he delivered.

Willie Harris cannot be counted on to do this. If he had been the leadoff guy or batted 2nd the whole year he still would have hit .260 or worse with much less walks cause he actually would've been pitched to. Whereas, in the bottom of the order he walked often because he barely swung. He usually tried to bunt twice, fouled one off and then either walked or got out. Pitchers would not be walking him at all if Frank Thomas or Carlos Lee had been hitting behind him, he would not have converted these missed walks into hits, and his OBP would have been .310 or .300.1) Harris in 337 ABs at leadoff: .264/.343/.318 - almost exactly what he came out with overall.

2) only 44 AB from the bottom half of the order (5-9 spots). So he wasn't 'often' shielded.

3) The bottom of the batting order ALWAYS gets pitched to, because they are assumed to be the weakest hitters. NO ONE pitches around the bottom of the order to face the 1, 2 and 3 hitters, that's insane. Besides, as I showed above he didn't hit that low in the order much anyway.

4) Harris walked at a higher rate than anyone on the team not named Frank Thomas and amongst leadoff hitters would have been 5th in all of baseball.

oldcomiskey
11-01-2004, 07:07 AM
You want power? Bring back Jose Valentin.

For about the millionth time, they're looking for top-of-the-order production, which means OBP. I don't need my SS to be whacking home runs. I need him to get his ass on base as often as possible. And Vizquel's OBP was only 10 pts higher than Harris' in 2004, and that was Vizquel's best year since 2000. That 10 pts works out to getting on base ONE more time A MONTH. Big deal. And it's been declining while Harris' has been increasing.

And if you think Harris is marginal in the field, I have to wonder exactly what it is you expect. He's got great range and has a .990 FPCT. At SS, Uribe had a .983 FPCT. Vizquel was .982. Again, Vizquel's fielding has dropped off from his peak years, and with his knees, it isn't likely to return.

Does Vizquel cost too much? Is $4M too much for those extra 6 times on base over the whole season? Seems pretty steep to me. But look at it in comparative terms. It's less than Flash Gordon is getting. Which is the better deal: Spend the $4M for Vizquel to get on base MAYBE 6 more times (probably less) or spend it for a bullpen pitcher who can probably save 10+ games? If you have to think about this for more than 0.000001 second, you must be new in town.

I think the problem with some Sox fans is that are sick and tired of Jose for some reason I cant figure out---they want to look at numbers on a club that wasnt going to win anyway......I think they still want Apericio back if it meant getting rid of Jose

Ol' No. 2
11-01-2004, 10:22 AM
YOu are WAY too hung up on OBP. It is not the only measure of a player, regardless of where in the order he hits. It is a valuable tool, but that is your whole argument here. You cannot solely evaluate a player on one number.If you want a top of the order hitter, OBP is the best measure. At least it's objective. If anyone's got a better one, I've yet to see it. If you can bring back the 2000 version of Omar Vizquel, I'm all for it. But the 2005 version is not going to help the team. Forget about Vizquel and spend the $4M on pitching.

Look at it this way. The latest rumor is CLee and Garland for Randy Johnson. Lee makes $9M and Garland will get about $3-4M. The difference between those two and Randy Johnson's $16.5M is....$4M!!!!

Rex Hudler
11-01-2004, 05:36 PM
If you want a top of the order hitter, OBP is the best measure. At least it's objective. If anyone's got a better one, I've yet to see it. If you can bring back the 2000 version of Omar Vizquel, I'm all for it. But the 2005 version is not going to help the team. Forget about Vizquel and spend the $4M on pitching.

Look at it this way. The latest rumor is CLee and Garland for Randy Johnson. Lee makes $9M and Garland will get about $3-4M. The difference between those two and Randy Johnson's $16.5M is....$4M!!!!
As I said, OBP is useful, but it is only part of an evaluation process. There is no one stat for any situation that tells the whole story. Period.

Best I could tell, the 2004 version of Omar WAS the same as the 2000 version of Omar. Not sure what else you want?

Ol' No. 2
11-01-2004, 05:49 PM
As I said, OBP is useful, but it is only part of an evaluation process. There is no one stat for any situation that tells the whole story. Period.

Best I could tell, the 2004 version of Omar WAS the same as the 2000 version of Omar. Not sure what else you want?Best I could tell, the 2004 version of Joe Borchard was as good as the 1927 version of Babe Ruth. But if you don't have some objective basis for saying that, it's just so much hot air.

Rex Hudler
11-01-2004, 09:05 PM
Best I could tell, the 2004 version of Joe Borchard was as good as the 1927 version of Babe Ruth. But if you don't have some objective basis for saying that, it's just so much hot air.
His stats tell the story. There is plenty to back it up. Can you not read his numbers? Want me to type them again for you, only bigger this time?