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Sell Jerry Sell!
10-27-2004, 02:51 PM
Do anyone actually think that the White Sox of all the teams in baseball are going to land RJ, Beltran, Pavano or any other A-list Free Agent? Uncle Jerry is going to open his wallet about as fast as Konerko can get to first base. I mean this team is happy settling for second place. They are the biggest tease in the AL, stay in it for the first half make a trade to weaken our already weak farm system and then fall at the end!

Would JR please sell the F**king team already!! I'm sure if all of the WSI'ers pooled our $1.75 together we might be able to steal a minority interest in the team. I think Hangar should be our managing partner since he is definitely the most passionate person about everything white sox

Rocky Soprano
10-27-2004, 03:10 PM
Put me down for $1K

kittle42
10-27-2004, 03:44 PM
But Sell, if the fans here don't delude themselves for months, how else will they occupy themselves until April?

Every FA/trade thread here requires a good deal of suspension of disbelief.

Ol' No. 2
10-27-2004, 03:50 PM
Oh good. Another "I hate Reinsdorf" thread.

kittle42
10-27-2004, 03:52 PM
Oh good. Another "I hate Reinsdorf" thread.
Hating Reinsdorf should be just as Chicagoan as deep dish pizza and 16-inch softball.

anewman35
10-27-2004, 03:58 PM
The White Sox will NEVER sign Freddy Garcia, either.

kittle42
10-27-2004, 04:00 PM
The White Sox will NEVER sign Freddy Garcia, either.Was there huge discussion over whether they would sign him? I don't remember any. I also won't go into the many ways this is different than the signings mentioned in the first post.

jackbrohamer
10-27-2004, 04:05 PM
Recognizing reality doesn't make you a Reinsdorf hater. The Sox will not get into a bidding war for a top free agent. They just never do it except to float out a sham offer to make it look like they are players (e.g., the "offer" to Robin Ventura in '98, the pathetic attempt to approach A-Rod without his agent, the recent deferred salary "offers" to Colon and others).

So as soon as the Yankees, Angels, Red Sox, Baltimore or other big-spenders seriously enter the picture for a top-level FA, the Sox are out no matter how much they pretend otherwise. They will stick to looking for the next Loaiza.

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 04:29 PM
Recognizing reality doesn't make you a Reinsdorf hater. The Sox will not get into a bidding war for a top free agent. They just never do it except to float out a sham offer to make it look like they are players (e.g., the "offer" to Robin Ventura in '98, the pathetic attempt to approach A-Rod without his agent, the recent deferred salary "offers" to Colon and others).

So as soon as the Yankees, Angels, Red Sox, Baltimore or other big-spenders seriously enter the picture for a top-level FA, the Sox are out no matter how much they pretend otherwise. They will stick to looking for the next Loaiza.
Did you even read the serie of threads on the whole ARod thing. There was no attempt to meet him without the agent, just to have him present at a meeting with the agent. The Sox offer was actually better than the Rangers offer (until Bora$$ got Hicks to outbid himself). And ALL big contracts involve deferrals nowadays, not just JRs. CBA limits are in force so none can be greater than 20%/yr or go beyond 2 years past the end of the contract.

Got any other factless allegations that you want to turn into "truth"?

jackbrohamer
10-27-2004, 05:54 PM
Did you even read the serie of threads on the whole ARod thing. There was no attempt to meet him without the agent, just to have him present at a meeting with the agent. The Sox offer was actually better than the Rangers offer (until Bora$$ got Hicks to outbid himself). And ALL big contracts involve deferrals nowadays, not just JRs. CBA limits are in force so none can be greater than 20%/yr or go beyond 2 years past the end of the contract.

Got any other factless allegations that you want to turn into "truth"?
Sorry! Sox are a LOCK to outbid the Yankees for Beltran! Lesse, according to an article in one of the threads you refer to:
"Williams has declined to make the offer to Boras without his client in the meeting."

So there was no offer.

According to Williams, the Sox offer was considerably larger than the numbers that have been speculated about in the media. The Tribune has put the offer at $144 million ($18 million a year for eight years).

Which is less than $252 million over 10 years that he got from Texas.

But a source close to the negotiations said Sunday that Reinsdorf was willing to go as high as $195 million.
Even according to whoever the unnamed source was.

And demanding to have A Rod present with his agent instead of just meeting with the agent is a way of trying to work around the agent. *** else would they request it. Boras humiliated the Sox publicly for trying to do it.

Oviously top-level FA contracts include deferred payments, but no big names have jumped at the chance to defer as much as the Sox want to.

Mickster
10-27-2004, 06:18 PM
Sorry! Sox are a LOCK to outbid the Yankees for Beltran! Lesse, according to an article in one of the threads you refer to:
"Williams has declined to make the offer to Boras without his client in the meeting."

So there was no offer.

According to Williams, the Sox offer was considerably larger than the numbers that have been speculated about in the media. The Tribune has put the offer at $144 million ($18 million a year for eight years).

Which is less than $252 million over 10 years that he got from Texas.

But a source close to the negotiations said Sunday that Reinsdorf was willing to go as high as $195 million.
Even according to whoever the unnamed source was.

And demanding to have A Rod present with his agent instead of just meeting with the agent is a way of trying to work around the agent. *** else would they request it. Boras humiliated the Sox publicly for trying to do it.

Oviously top-level FA contracts include deferred payments, but no big names have jumped at the chance to defer as much as the Sox want to.1. Wanting Arod present with Boras is certainly not "working around the agent". I fail to see your point.

2. With respect to your "no big names have jumped at the chance to defer as much as the Sox want to" comment, the CBA expressly lists the manner and the length of deferments that can be done on contracts. No more than 20% per year and no more than 2 years after the contract expires, if I recall correctly. This applies to all of MLB, not just the Sox.

jackbrohamer
10-27-2004, 07:06 PM
1. Wanting Arod present with Boras is certainly not "working around the agent". I fail to see your point.Seriously, my point was that the Sox will not get into a FA bidding war. If they outbid everyone for Beltran, teriffic.

But since I'm getting bitched out about what I thought was an uncontroversial comment about the Sox' embarrassing ARod negotiations, what I mean is this: Where a player has authorized or instructed his agent to be the exclusive contact person for teams extending offers, if a team nevertheless demands that the player be present before it will extend an offer it suggests to me that: (a) the team does not trust the agent to accurately present the offer to the player, (b) the team believes that the agent will withhold information from the player that the team finds relevant, or (c) the team believes its negotiator can establish a personal rapport with the player that will enhance the offer and make the player more inclined to accept it. That is "working around" the agent (which is different than "going around the agent's back").

If you think the Sox were not trying to work around Boras, fine. The fact that ARod refused to negotiate with KW supports my view.

dickallen15
10-27-2004, 07:10 PM
Do anyone actually think that the White Sox of all the teams in baseball are going to land RJ, Beltran, Pavano or any other A-list Free Agent? Uncle Jerry is going to open his wallet about as fast as Konerko can get to first base. I mean this team is happy settling for second place. They are the biggest tease in the AL, stay in it for the first half make a trade to weaken our already weak farm system and then fall at the end!

Would JR please sell the F**king team already!! I'm sure if all of the WSI'ers pooled our $1.75 together we might be able to steal a minority interest in the team. I think Hangar should be our managing partner since he is definitely the most passionate person about everything white sox
They just had part 1 of a several part interview with JR on Comcast. He was asked if he would ever consider giving up at least one of the teams. His response was, "Sure, when I die." He will never sell, and he should never sell.

Mickster
10-27-2004, 07:10 PM
Seriously, my point was that the Sox will not get into a FA bidding war. If they outbid everyone for Beltran, teriffic.

But since I'm getting bitched out about what I thought was an uncontroversial comment about the Sox' embarrassing ARod negotiations, what I mean is this: Where a player has authorized or instructed his agent to be the exclusive contact person for teams extending offers, if a team nevertheless demands that the player be present before it will extend an offer it suggests to me that: (a) the team does not trust the agent to accurately present the offer to the player, (b) the team believes that the agent will withhold information from the player that the team finds relevant, or (c) the team believes its negotiator can establish a personal rapport with the player that will enhance the offer and make the player more inclined to accept it. That is "working around" the agent (which is different than "going around the agent's back").

If you think the Sox were not trying to work around Boras, fine. The fact that ARod refused to negotiate with KW supports my view.I certainly don't think it's out of line for a team, any team for that matter, to want to actually meet and talk with a player that they will potentially be spending massive amounts of money on over a period of 10 years and who, in essence, will be the "face" of the team for years to come. Am I alone in actually not seeing anything wrong with that?

I certainly don't think their [JR/KW] behavior was "embarassing".

steff
10-27-2004, 07:11 PM
ROTFLMAO.... :D:


It's the eclipse I tell ya. It's got people all stupid today.


Walk away M... it's not worth it. And no, you're not alone. Normally employers DO want to meet with potential empolyees. :rolleyes:

Mickster
10-27-2004, 07:13 PM
ROTFLMAO.... :D:


It's the eclipse I tell ya. It's got people all stupid today.


Walk away M... it's not worth it. And no, you're not alone. Normally employers DO want to meet with potential empolyees. :rolleyes:
At least I'm not alone... :wink:

jackbrohamer
10-27-2004, 07:13 PM
I certainly don't think it's out of line for a team, any team for that matter, to want to actually meet and talk with a player that they will potentially be spending massive amounts of money on over a period of 10 years and who, in essence, will be the "face" of the team for years to come. Am I alone in actually not seeing anything wrong with that?.
There's nothing wrong with it. I wouldn't trust Boras either.

dickallen15
10-27-2004, 07:16 PM
I certainly don't think it's out of line for a team, any team for that matter, to want to actually meet and talk with a player that they will potentially be spending massive amounts of money on over a period of 10 years and who, in essence, will be the "face" of the team for years to come. Am I alone in actually not seeing anything wrong with that?
You are not alone. If I were to give a player a contract for over $100 million, I sure would like to get to know him a little bit, without the agent around to protect him, and see how he answers questions. Funny thing, the guy who signed ARod couldn't wait to get rid of him. Reinsdorf is not cheap, when are people going to realize this.

steff
10-27-2004, 07:16 PM
There's nothing wrong with it. I wouldn't trust Boras either.


I like flip flops. I wear them at the beach. :wink:

steff
10-27-2004, 07:17 PM
You are not alone. If I were to give a player a contract for over $100 million, I sure would like to get to know him a little bit, without the agent around to protect him, and see how he answers questions. Funny thing, the guy who signed ARod couldn't wait to get rid of him. Reinsdorf is not cheap, when are people going to realize this.


When the next owner comes in.. spends a gazillion $$'s.. wins a title.. then has to contract the team because of the financial mess they got themselves into to win. :rolleyes:

jackbrohamer
10-27-2004, 07:22 PM
Sheesh, whatever. I'm wrong the ARod negotions went great for the Sox. I'm sure their success with big-name free agents will continue

dickallen15
10-27-2004, 07:34 PM
Sheesh, whatever. I'm wrong the ARod negotions went great for the Sox. I'm sure their success with big-name free agents will continueLast time I checked, ARod's teams since he signed that contract have won the same amount of championships as the White Sox. His salary probably would have prohibited the Sox from going after Colon, Garcia, Gordon. Konerko and/or Lee would not be here. Magglio wouldn't have gotten his previous extension. Thomas would probably be elsewhere. Oh yeah, and we would have missed out on everybody's favorite, Jose Valentin, striking out over and over again.

Lip Man 1
10-27-2004, 07:36 PM
In Uncle Jerry's Comcast interview has he stated yet that 'Chicago has always been a Cubs town...' That 'he wants to win more then Sox fans do,'...and that 'Sox fans care to much about the Cubs..'

LOL

Lip

dickallen15
10-27-2004, 07:49 PM
In Uncle Jerry's Comcast interview has he stated yet that 'Chicago has always been a Cubs town...' That 'he wants to win more then Sox fans do,'...and that 'Sox fans care to much about the Cubs..'

LOL

Lip
He's right. The only points you really could argue about is the one where he states he wants to win more than Sox fans do. Die hard fans, like probably everyone on this board want to win equally as much as JR. But winning is not as important to the majority of people at the games than it is to him. The other one is Chicago has always been a Cubs town. Probably not always, but since 1984 is has been big time. And it has nothing to do with performance.

PavanoBeltran'05
10-27-2004, 08:01 PM
The point that kills me is that everybody on this site believes that you need to have all of these big name guys to win championships. Look at the Yankees the past few years. Even when they spend close to 200 mil, they still have holes (look at their rotation)....This is a free agent year that maybe getting the best names on the board isn't the best option. For the price you can spend on Beltran (Before you start knocking my username.......don't), you can get a couple of guys to help on the pitching staff (a good 3 or 4 guy and a quality bullpen guy) PLUS a serviceable outfielder. The best talent doesn't always get you wins. Look at the Anaheim Angels or the Marlins when they won. They didn't win by spending tons of money on the top guys..what they did was spend wisely and build CHEMISTRY. If you get the right chemistry going, the talent (all MLB players have talent) will rise up and play well for each other. Chemistry was great in 2000 (I point to the Tigers brawl as the turning point) and that lead to all players elevating their games. It's not a coincidence that all those guys played so well at the same time.


KW...don't spend tons of money on one or two guys. Get some guys that can help in the clubhouse and perform at a good level. I'd rather have some Paul O'Neill or Brosius types than A-Rod and Giambi types. We've seen what all of that talent brings.

PavanoBeltran'05
10-27-2004, 08:07 PM
The best thing they could do this offseason is feast on these under the radar free agents that people are not really gawking at. Jose Guillen....Milton.....Percival...Vizquel....and make it work.

Make some noise with guys that will play for each other and not for themselves.
Then, you win some games, make it to the playoffs, and build some momentum for the franchise. Give some of these farm guys a chance to grow and mature in a winning environment and also watch the fan base grow. Then, hopefully, after a few seasons, the money grows to a point that they can conceivably spend on the occasional big time guy.

Lip Man 1
10-27-2004, 09:50 PM
Dick:

Considering Uncle Jerry lived in Chicago, starting in 1957 he should know better then to make that statement. And here's three words for you WHY the Cubs took over the town starting in 1984. Remember them?

SportsVision...Harry Caray.

Now praytel WHO started SportsVision and drove Harry out? I think the initials are JR.

I have on video comments from the late Tim Weigle talking about the Cubs 'closing' the upper deck in 83 because of lack of fans.

But the bottom line is that instead of trying to correct the mistakes that he caused, he rolls over and like the gutless coward that he is (after all he authorized the White Flag Trade) makes an assinine statement like 'Chicago has always been a Cubs town.' :?:

After all trying to correct those mistakes would mean spending big money to try to win a title and we can't have that now can we? Hell, the SOB didn't even use his own money to correct the abortion of a ballpark that HE authorized to be built.

Keep swallowing the story Dick, hook, line and sinker. Uncle Jerry LOVES those kind of fans. Meanwhile he says he won't sell until he's dead... meaning he's not losing any money is he? Because he's a brilliant businessman and if he was dropping oddles of cash, he'd be out of it in a heartbeat.

Lip

jabrch
10-27-2004, 10:28 PM
Oh Gee - another "I Hate JR" thread. These are so innovative, thought provoking and inspiring. The facts, analytics and thought process used to get to this conclusion really goes deep.

http://www.brownfido.com/DogPoopPOO1.jpg

jabrch
10-27-2004, 10:28 PM
BTW - can someone make a tag out of this image for me? :poo




Oh Gee - another "I Hate JR" thread. These are so innovative, thought provoking and inspiring. The facts, analytics and thought process used to get to this conclusion really goes deep.

http://www.brownfido.com/DogPoopPOO1.jpg

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 10:50 PM
Sorry! Sox are a LOCK to outbid the Yankees for Beltran! Lesse, according to an article in one of the threads you refer to:
"Williams has declined to make the offer to Boras without his client in the meeting."

So there was no offer.

According to Williams, the Sox offer was considerably larger than the numbers that have been speculated about in the media. The Tribune has put the offer at $144 million ($18 million a year for eight years).

Which is less than $252 million over 10 years that he got from Texas.

But a source close to the negotiations said Sunday that Reinsdorf was willing to go as high as $195 million.
Even according to whoever the unnamed source was.
I.e., they were willing to go higher than the current market for ARod. At the time of these discussions, Texas had a lesser offer on the table. It was only after playing the Sox interest up to Hicks that Bora$$ got him to essentially bid against himself and raise it to $252mil. Not starting out with your highest offer, but being willing to go up off of your initial bid is called "negotiations".

And demanding to have A Rod present with his agent instead of just meeting with the agent is a way of trying to work around the agent. *** else would they request it. Boras humiliated the Sox publicly for trying to do it. Or it's an attempt to forestall an obvious tactic by Boras to focus discussions only on $$$. It's HIGHLY likely that KW & JR simply wanted to talk up the oppoortunities in Chicago and the talent on the team. But that would have eliminated the possibility that Boras could lie to them and get them into his game of bidding against phantom offers, fooey on them for not going along!

Oviously top-level FA contracts include deferred payments, but no big names have jumped at the chance to defer as much as the Sox want to.
You mean like Miguel Tejada (deferred a big chunk of his yr1 salary to yr 7 in a 5-year deal)? Vlady? ARod himself? I assume you have some knowledge of what JR's trying to defer other than a comment that the offer to Maggs "included too much deferred money"?

jackbrohamer
10-27-2004, 11:55 PM
You mean like Miguel Tejada (deferred a big chunk of his yr1 salary to yr 7 in a 5-year deal)? Vlady? ARod himself? I assume you have some knowledge of what JR's trying to defer other than a comment that the offer to Maggs "included too much deferred money"?

I see your point & agree. JR is not deferring any more money than anyone else. There is good money to be made here with the Sox. Just cursed luck that players decide to go to Baltimore Anaheim and Arlington rather than Chicago where there is just as much money to be had. I am certain that things like deferred payments and diminishing skills clauses are not an issue with players. From now on I will ignore media reports of players saying they elect not to sign here because too much of the money they are being offered is deferred. Must be an excuse to play in high-profile markets like Arlington, TX.

GoSox2K3
10-28-2004, 08:12 AM
Oh good. Another "I hate Reinsdorf" thread.
Oh great, another realistic look at Reinsdorf's failures thread hijacked by blind Reinsdorf boosters.

:reinsy
Our marketing surveys show that Sox fans would rather have an endless string of 82-win seasons than a world championship.

jabrch
10-28-2004, 08:17 AM
I see your point & agree. JR is not deferring any more money than anyone else. There is good money to be made here with the Sox. Just cursed luck that players decide to go to Baltimore Anaheim and Arlington rather than Chicago where there is just as much money to be had. I am certain that things like deferred payments and diminishing skills clauses are not an issue with players. From now on I will ignore media reports of players saying they elect not to sign here because too much of the money they are being offered is deferred. Must be an excuse to play in high-profile markets like Arlington, TX.
What's wrong with Dallas?

Flight #24
10-28-2004, 09:43 AM
I see your point & agree. JR is not deferring any more money than anyone else. There is good money to be made here with the Sox. Just cursed luck that players decide to go to Baltimore Anaheim and Arlington rather than Chicago where there is just as much money to be had. I am certain that things like deferred payments and diminishing skills clauses are not an issue with players. From now on I will ignore media reports of players saying they elect not to sign here because too much of the money they are being offered is deferred. Must be an excuse to play in high-profile markets like Arlington, TX.
Who was it again that didn't sign because of too much deferred $$$? ARod - nope, he got a ridiculously larger sum (significantly more than anyone else in baseball was willing to pay)......must be Colon - nope, he too got a lot more than the market rate at the time, and a longer deal (which many independent observers think will haunt the Halos before it's done). Oh yeah, it's Maggs, who's really shown that he just wants to be here.......The problem with your contention is that the Sox haven't been trying to get any of the bigname guys (which is another, separate issue). So to claim people aren't signing here because of deferred money is flat wrong. They're not signing here because the Sox either aren't pursuing them, or because someone else offers significantly more $$$ or longer terms.

FYI - per the CBA, the impact of maximum allowed deferrals on the Maggs deal is, minimal (I ran the calc in another thread and it came out to something like 5%, IIRC). Man, that's cheap. A guy makes an initial contract request and you come back with an offer that's 5% away? Sounds like a cheap-ass sham to me...

Lip Man 1
10-28-2004, 09:48 AM
As Daver and others have pointed out mathematically, there can be a large difference in money earned even if it is 'only' deferred by two years.

Lip

Flight #24
10-28-2004, 10:15 AM
As Daver and others have pointed out mathematically, there can be a large difference in money earned even if it is 'only' deferred by two years.

LipLip, using the maximum allowable deferral of 20% annually, and the maximum deferral term of 7 years (2 years past contract's end), on a $14mil/yr - 5yr contract Maggs would receive a net present value of $49.6mil. With no deferrals on the same contract, the net present value would be $53.1mil. That's a difference of $3.5mil over the life of the contract. That also assumes a 10% discount rate, which I believe is high. As the rate goes down, the difference in value decreases (At a discount rate of 7%, the difference drops to $2.8mil, at 5% it's $2.2mil.)

I'll leave it to you to decide whether or not $3.5mil is a "large difference" when we're talking roughly $50mil over 5 years. You can guess my feelings on that topic.