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ja1022
10-27-2004, 01:14 PM
I'm curious if anybody remembers a bigger brain cramp in a big game than the one Jeff Suppan had last night. I can remember examples like players losing track of the outs both offensively and defensively, in regular season games, but nothing like what I saw last night in a game of that magnitude. Joe Buck called it "Suppan's Buckner moment", but Buckner's was a physical error and not a mental mistake. That single gaffe turned it from a 1-1 game with man on third, one out and Pujols up, to down 1-0 with a man on second, two outs and Pujols up. Talk about a game changing play.

samram
10-27-2004, 01:16 PM
Didn't Lonnie Smith have a major baserunning problem in the 1991 series?

CubKilla
10-27-2004, 01:20 PM
99 times out of 100 that run scores. That's the one time it doesn't. But to be doubled-off in addition to not scoring the run is inexcusable.

doublem23
10-27-2004, 01:22 PM
I'm curious if anybody remembers a bigger brain cramp in a big game than the one Jeff Suppan had last night. I can remember examples like players losing track of the outs both offensively and defensively, in regular season games, but nothing like what I saw last night in a game of that magnitude. Joe Buck called it "Suppan's Buckner moment", but Buckner's was a physical error and not a mental mistake. That single gaffe turned it from a 1-1 game with man on third, one out and Pujols up, to down 1-0 with a man on second, two outs and Pujols up. Talk about a game changing play.Are you trying to tell me not looking a ground ball into your glove isn't a mental error? Especially for being a first baseman, even if the ball takes a goofy bounce, you can pretty much just knock it down and still be assured the out. But letting one roll through your legs is a huge mental error.

fquaye149
10-27-2004, 02:10 PM
i'm sorry but that has to be classified a physical error. Period. If booting a ball is a mental error then what's a physical error? Tearing your ACL while running down a fly ball and nothing else?


Even if we want to play devil's advocate and not excuse him for not blocking it (although what first baseman goes down to his knees to block every ground ball that comes his way), let's look at the facts. First of all he was hurt. Second of all he was playing way behind 1b on the line. Even if he had blocked it or deflected it etc. he wouldn't have likely got the out.


Yes he booted it and yes it was brutal, but it's not as though he made some miscalculation or snooze play like pesky holding the ball (although history would suggest pesky wasn't really responsible for his supposed gaffe and that the runner basically scored before he even had it - but you get my meaning)

doublem23
10-27-2004, 03:53 PM
i'm sorry but that has to be classified a physical error. Period. If booting a ball is a mental error then what's a physical error? Tearing your ACL while running down a fly ball and nothing else?
I'd say a physical error is just one of those luck of the draw deals where the ball or the player just encounter some sort of physical abnormality that no one can see coming and cannot react to in time to salvage. For instance, an outfielder slipping on wet grass, a ball taking an extraordinarily funky hop off the edge of the grass/dirt, hitting the bag, or bouncing off another player (a liner back to the pitcher for instance). Misreading a ball in the field is not just a happenstance, especially for a first baseman who, as you said, was playing deep. A ball splitting the wickets like that is the responsibility of the first baseman, hands down. Granted, I don't remember the entire happenings of the play (I was 3 at the time), but was the runner on third? Was he running on contact? Even if Buckner doesn't get the out at first, would the Mets have plated that run?

It's his fault that he had a mental lapse; it's not his fault that it happened on such a grand stage and he has become a scapegoat for such a childish and vicious fanbase.

Tearing an ACL? That just sucks, dude.

ja1022
10-27-2004, 05:24 PM
Are you trying to tell me not looking a ground ball into your glove isn't a mental error? Especially for being a first baseman, even if the ball takes a goofy bounce, you can pretty much just knock it down and still be assured the out. But letting one roll through your legs is a huge mental error.
Buckner made a fielding error in the traditional baseball meaning of the word. He misplayed a ground ball resulting in an out not being recorded when it otherwise would have been, and allowing a baserunner to advance (scoring from second).
This kind of error, whether it results from a mental lapse or not, is such a common part of the game it's included in the line score. Suppan's was a baserunning mistake that absolutely should have never happened. This was not trying to stretch a double into a triple. This was a deer in the headlights moment. The guy was damn near halfway home when he froze, and when he returned to third (rather than getting in a rundown and allowing Renteria to advance at that point) he didn't hold the base and would have been out even if he avoided the tag anyway. I realize he's a pitcher and I'm not trying to pound the guy. In fact I'm glad for him it wasn't game seven and it doesn't look like anyone will even remember in a month. I just don't remember seeing anything quite like it in a big game.

fquaye149
10-27-2004, 05:58 PM
I'd say a physical error is just one of those luck of the draw deals where the ball or the player just encounter some sort of physical abnormality that no one can see coming and cannot react to in time to salvage. For instance, an outfielder slipping on wet grass, a ball taking an extraordinarily funky hop off the edge of the grass/dirt, hitting the bag, or bouncing off another player (a liner back to the pitcher for instance). Misreading a ball in the field is not just a happenstance, especially for a first baseman who, as you said, was playing deep. A ball splitting the wickets like that is the responsibility of the first baseman, hands down. Granted, I don't remember the entire happenings of the play (I was 3 at the time), but was the runner on third? Was he running on contact? Even if Buckner doesn't get the out at first, would the Mets have plated that run?

It's his fault that he had a mental lapse; it's not his fault that it happened on such a grand stage and he has become a scapegoat for such a childish and vicious fanbase.

Tearing an ACL? That just sucks, dude. well you explained yourself very clearly and rationally. however, your definition of physical error differs greatly from most everyone else's. that's not to say you're wrong, just that you have created your own concept of mental error v. physical.

i can see where you're coming from but every baseball coach and analyst i've ever run across would say buckner's error was physical. it's not like he "ole'd" it or that it was a slow roller and he didn't get down.


it's as if you said failing to get a bunt down is a mental error. yes, if someone gets a bunt down it's possible his head wasn't in it or his fundamentals suck. but most likely his coordination failed him. you can't assume on a physical mistake that it was a mental thing.

If a pitcher hangs a curve, that's not a mental error even though a pitcher's job is to make sure his curveball breaks...

etc.


now in the case of suppan there is no explanation other than that he consciously did the wrong thing on the basepaths - he made a mistake in judgment. it's clearly a mental error.

Paulwny
10-28-2004, 07:49 AM
I've seen a b+w film of this play which maybe the biggest ws brain lock helping the white sox win the ws title in 1917.
From the Baseball Library:
The 1917 Series was memorable for Giants third baseman Heinie Zimmerman (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/Z/Zimmerman_Heinie.stm)'s futile chase to home plate of Eddie Collins (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/C/Collins_Eddie.stm) as the White Sox took the lead in the Series clincher; neither catcher Lew McCarty (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/M/McCarty_Lew.stm) nor pitcher Rube Benton (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/B/Benton_Rube.stm) covered home.

jdm2662
10-28-2004, 02:27 PM
Didn't Lonnie Smith have a major baserunning problem in the 1991 series?
Yes, had he not stopped at second with the ball well in the gap in the eighth, he would've scored on the double and Jack Morris doesn't get a 10-inning shut out win in game 7. If I remember correctly, Minnesota intentionally walked the next guy to load the bases. Then, they forced a double play. Minnesota had the bases loaded the bottom half with one out, only to line into unassisted double play to the second baseman. That was the only series I've ever watched until this last one...
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