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View Full Version : I want KW gone. Who is with me?


faneidde
10-26-2004, 10:46 PM
I've had it with this clown. Every time he opens his mouth he says something stupid. Every time he makes a trade it blows up. His drafts are not good.

Look, I've been posting here for awhile now, and I'm not normally the type to call for people to go. But, other than lucking out with Uribe and Loaiza, I can't think of a single good thing KW has done. He traded Foulke for Koch, and we all know how well that worked out. I liked his aggressiveness last year, he improved the team without giving up much. This year, he sold the farm to Seattle for Freddy Garcia, which wasn't all that bad at the time, but it didn't work out. Then he traded for Alomar and Everett again. And who can blame him, since that worked out so well the year before. Now, we're stuck with Crazy Carl in right this year. Some of his moves have looked good on paper or at the time, but not one trade he has made can be classified as a steal for the Sox and most have completely sucked. On top of all that, he is arrogant about his ignorance. Never admitting a mistake.

In summation, KW is to GMs as Joe Carter was to color guys.

akingamongstmen
10-26-2004, 10:52 PM
I've had it with this clown. Every time he opens his mouth he says something stupid. Every time he makes a trade it blows up. His drafts are not good.

Look, I've been posting here for awhile now, and I'm not normally the type to call for people to go. But, other than lucking out with Uribe and Loaiza, I can't think of a single good thing KW has done. He traded Foulke for Koch, and we all know how well that worked out. I liked his aggressiveness last year, he improved the team without giving up much. This year, he sold the farm to Seattle for Freddy Garcia, which wasn't all that bad at the time, but it didn't work out. Then he traded for Alomar and Everett again. And who can blame him, since that worked out so well the year before. Now, we're stuck with Crazy Carl in right this year. Some of his moves have looked good on paper or at the time, but not one trade he has made can be classified as a steal for the Sox and most have completely sucked. On top of all that, he is arrogant about his ignorance. Never admitting a mistake.

In summation, KW is to GMs as Joe Carter was to color guys.
KW wants to win. He tries to win. His hands are tied by ownership that refuses to spend the necessary money to win. What more do you want from him? Should he magically convince Beltran to sign with the Sox for half as much as he would get from the Yankees? Maybe he should convince the Diamondbacks to trade Randy Johnson straight up for Carl Everett, that way he doesn't have to "sell the farm."

Seriously, we all are frustrated with this team, but it's too easy to point the finger at KW. He's aggressive, and he makes some mistakes, but he's a whole lot better than Schuler. If you're going to point fingers, point them at an ownership group that doesn't realize that you have to spend money to make money.

idseer
10-26-2004, 10:56 PM
to me he's a lot like frank thomas in at least one respect.

he should do his job and keep his blow hole closed.

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 11:02 PM
Some of his moves have looked good on paper or at the time, but not one trade he has made can be classified as a steal for the Sox and most have completely sucked. On top of all that, he is arrogant about his ignorance. Never admitting a mistake.


I sure wouldn't count as steals:

Loaiza for nothing
Shingo for nothing
Colon for Biddle & Liefer
Marte for Guerrier
Uribe for Miles
Gordon for nothing

Or as good trades:
Olivo for Bradford
Garcia for Reed, Olivo
Wells for Sirotka

I've got an idea, let's re-hash the same old tired debate, fact-less allegations, and general rants!

:threadblows:

OEO Magglio
10-26-2004, 11:07 PM
I've had it with this clown. Every time he opens his mouth he says something stupid. Every time he makes a trade it blows up. His drafts are not good.

Look, I've been posting here for awhile now, and I'm not normally the type to call for people to go. But, other than lucking out with Uribe and Loaiza, I can't think of a single good thing KW has done. He traded Foulke for Koch, and we all know how well that worked out. I liked his aggressiveness last year, he improved the team without giving up much. This year, he sold the farm to Seattle for Freddy Garcia, which wasn't all that bad at the time, but it didn't work out. Then he traded for Alomar and Everett again. And who can blame him, since that worked out so well the year before. Now, we're stuck with Crazy Carl in right this year. Some of his moves have looked good on paper or at the time, but not one trade he has made can be classified as a steal for the Sox and most have completely sucked. On top of all that, he is arrogant about his ignorance. Never admitting a mistake.

In summation, KW is to GMs as Joe Carter was to color guys.

What a creative thread. :rolleyes:

:threadsucks

dickallen15
10-26-2004, 11:11 PM
If he were to depart, I wouldn't be upset about it. I've said it before, I'll say it again, his effort is great, the results, mediocre at best.

DMarte708
10-26-2004, 11:11 PM
KW wants to win. He tries to win. His hands are tied by ownership that refuses to spend the necessary money to win. What more do you want from him? Should he magically convince Beltran to sign with the Sox for half as much as he would get from the Yankees? Maybe he should convince the Diamondbacks to trade Randy Johnson straight up for Carl Everett, that way he doesn't have to "sell the farm."

Seriously, we all are frustrated with this team, but it's too easy to point the finger at KW. He's aggressive, and he makes some mistakes, but he's a whole lot better than Schuler. If you're going to point fingers, point them at an ownership group that doesn't realize that you have to spend money to make money.KW and JR have collectively ruined this team. If he (Williams) were to leave the Sox, would his services be sought after by many major league clubs? NO. His numerous gaffes and mistakes have effectively ruined atleast two seasons. If it's too easy to point the finger at Kenny, when is it ever appropriate to blame him for our failures?

Here's what I give KW: one more year. One more year to assemble a ballclub capable of winning the American League Central. No excuses; whether injuries or terrible offensive years strike our players this should be his defining year.

BTW, hate to bring the Moneyball factor into this discussion again, but Beane has accomplished more success with a smaller payroll than the Sox. As did Minnesota. Our payroll may be low considering our position in our large market, but achieving success is not impossible.

Tell me KW lovers: if Sox fail to earn a playoff spot in 05' is it still not his fault?

Wealz
10-26-2004, 11:15 PM
I sure wouldn't count as steals:

Loaiza for nothing
Shingo for nothing
Colon for Biddle & Liefer
Marte for Guerrier
Uribe for Miles
Gordon for nothing

Or as good trades:
Olivo for Bradford
Garcia for Reed, Olivo
Wells for SirotkaForget that those moves didn't net us a playoff spot for a moment. How have these steals positioned the team for 2005? The guy either has no long-term plan or has no patience to stick with one if he does.

santo=dorf
10-26-2004, 11:26 PM
Did KW just run over your dog or something? We been over this 100 times. Why should we go over it again, NOW?

Christ....

:threadsucks

"lucking out with Uribe and Loaiza"
:rolling:

DMarte708
10-26-2004, 11:32 PM
I sure wouldn't count as steals:

Loaiza for nothing
Shingo for nothing
Colon for Biddle & Liefer
Marte for Guerrier
Uribe for Miles
Gordon for nothing

Or as good trades:
Olivo for Bradford
Garcia for Reed, Olivo
Wells for Sirotka

This is KW's legacy? LMAO! Half of the players listed have since left this organization. When they were here, how many divisional titles did any of these players contribute to?

santo=dorf
10-26-2004, 11:36 PM
This is KW's legacy? LMAO! Half of the players listed have since left this organization. When they were here, how many divisional titles did any of these players contribute to?
He's only been here for four years. Are you going to blame him for all of the pitching injuries in 2001, or the lay down in September in 2003, or Frank and Maggs missing a combined 198 games in 2004?

:deadhorse

Remind me again as to why Gordon and Colon are no longer with this organization.

:reinsy
"Some people just can't wait to recieve their money until 2027."

I_Liked_Manuel
10-26-2004, 11:39 PM
i'm beyond sick and tired of people making excuses for kenny williams due to payroll constraints. well, if that's the case, why the hell is paul konerko getting so much money? why the hell did koch make six million a year? even though carlos lee plays *decent*, corner outfielders are a dime a dozen and why does carlos have to make so much?

why did kenny williams get rid of everybody that can play small ball only to realize that it's the only way a team in the middle of the league in payroll can compete?

has he not learned ANYTHING from minnesota? oakland? you cant win in a medium sized maket if you trade away 5 prospects for carl everett. you can't win in a medium sized market if you trade for a washed up robbie alomar TWICE. you can't win in a small market when you send your best hitting prospect you've had in 5 years along with a 5 tool catcher away for a pitcher that can't pitch in your home park.

i understand that KW brings excitement to the south side with his trades, but he's doing it at a huge price. 10 years from now, we're still going to be in huge trouble due to ken williams' trades, and do you know who won't be around to take the heat?

ken williams.

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 11:39 PM
BTW, hate to bring the Moneyball factor into this discussion again, but Beane has accomplished more success with a smaller payroll than the Sox. As did Minnesota. Our payroll may be low considering our position in our large market, but achieving success is not impossible.

Tell me KW lovers: if Sox fail to earn a playoff spot in 05' is it still not his fault?
It's real easy to compare a guy who's been a GM going on 8 years with one going on 4. Beane's first 4 seasons: 1 playoff trip, average record of 79-83. KW's: 0 playoff trips, average record of 83-79. This season, injuries make it tough to say for sure, but many think the Sox would have made the playoffs.

In '05, it'll depend on why they don't make it. If Garcia & Buehrle's arms fall off, I won't blame KW, especially if a team without those guys finishes above .500.

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 11:40 PM
This is KW's legacy? LMAO! Half of the players listed have since left this organization. When they were here, how many divisional titles did any of these players contribute to?
Who said anything about Legacy? Trades that were "steals" was the question.

Garcia, Marte, ARow, Buehrle, Uribe, and BMac, Anderson, Sweeney - that's the "legacy".

MRKARNO
10-26-2004, 11:47 PM
How many times must we have this same discussion. We know how both sides feel already. It's arguing for the sake of arguing to continue this argument. Everyone should just state whether they are pro or anti-KW and just walk away from this thread.

DMarte708
10-26-2004, 11:51 PM
He's only been here for four years. Are you going to blame him for all of the pitching injuries in 2001, or the lay down in September in 2003, or Frank and Maggs missing a combined 198 games in 2004?

:deadhorse

Remind me again as to why Gordon and Colon are no longer with this organization.

:reinsy
"Some people just can't wait to recieve their money until 2027."I posed this question earlier, and after I respond to yours I expect a response in return. If KW fails to assemble a team which wins this division in 05', will you continue to harbor this belief Williams deserves no blame?

Obviously it was not KW's fault numerous injuries stiffled 2001 and 2004 seasons, but its the responsibility of management/ownership to work over these handicaps. Cubs were in contention this entire season when Prior/Wood missed time on the DL because their rotation was deep and players stepped up.

I'll rehash info from another post incase you overlooked it. Our payroll may be low for our position in a large market, but it should be high enough to win this division. How does Minnesota do it again? They have a minor league system in which players contribute. How's our system been besides terrible and disgraceful? When a starting pitcher or second baseman isn't developed through a system we're left giving Willie Harris and Grilli starting roles. You know exactly who's at fault for diminishing our system, and his name isn't JR.

You may blame JR for our troubles, but KW does deserve a sizable amount of it as well. Who's fault is it when KW paniced following Frank's injury and re-acquired Everett, unaware Everett held a player option in 05? JR for not having a higher payroll of Williams for being stuck with a 4 million dollar statue in RF.

soxnut
10-26-2004, 11:51 PM
You're not supposed to get "steals" in trades. They are supposed to work out for both teams, or noone will want to trade with you again.

Anyway..this thread does suck...please close it.:(:

fquaye149
10-26-2004, 11:51 PM
:george strait

"i hate everything"

:faneddie, idseer, dmarte, ilikedmanuel(??????) and jeremyb1 and dadawg wherever they are

"us too"

Randar68
10-26-2004, 11:59 PM
I've had it with this clown. Every time he opens his mouth he says something stupid.
Ahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

Now that is irony, folks. Too funny...

:threadsucks

faneidde
10-27-2004, 12:09 AM
Hey, I've got an idea, instead of retorting with something, let's just put the this thread sucks tag up. That really advances your point. Why are there so many people who want to trade Konerko because of his salary, but so few people willing to blame KW for giving him that money. Yes, Marte was a good trade, my mistake there, but the Colon trade wasn't that great. Bartolo wasn't that great last year and was just bad this year.
Soxnut: people routinely rob KW, the reason we make so many trades every year.
Randar: You criticize my posts, when your's consists of ahahahaha, a sentence, and the thread sucks guy. Now that is ironic.

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 12:13 AM
I posed this question earlier, and after I respond to yours I expect a response in return. If KW fails to assemble a team which wins this division in 05', will you continue to harbor this belief Williams deserves no blame?

Obviously it was not KW's fault numerous injuries stiffled 2001 and 2004 seasons, but its the responsibility of management/ownership to work over these handicaps. Cubs were in contention this entire season when Prior/Wood missed time on the DL because their rotation was deep and players stepped up.

I'll rehash info from another post incase you overlooked it. Our payroll may be low for our position in a large market, but it should be high enough to win this division. How does Minnesota do it again? They have a minor league system in which players contribute. How's our system been besides terrible and disgraceful? When a starting pitcher or second baseman isn't developed through a system we're left giving Willie Harris and Grilli starting roles. You know exactly who's at fault for diminishing our system, and his name isn't JR.

You may blame JR for our troubles, but KW does deserve a sizable amount of it as well. Who's fault is it when KW paniced following Frank's injury and re-acquired Everett, unaware Everett held a player option in 05? JR for not having a higher payroll of Williams for being stuck with a 4 million dollar statue in RF.
Crap, I hate it when I can't resist stating the obvious.

#1 - Did it ever occur to you that the Cubs have the depth that comes with a $20-30mil higher payroll? Derek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Greg Maddux, & Nomar are all inaccessible to a team that can't take on significant salary.

#2 - It's impossible to judge a minor league system until at least 4 years have passed. The Twins are reaping the benefits of guys drafted in 1999 or earlier (Mauer being the exception, along with some middle relievers). In the next year or 2, you'll be able to talk about the system since KW took over as GM...guess what - that's about the timeline for Anderson, Sweeney, BMac. And Reed should count for something in terms of drafting & development - and Garcia's the value we got for it. As for "diminishing the system", care to name all those great prospects that were here when he arrived that he's dealt away? Kip Wells is the only name, and he hasn't exactly set the world on fire.

#3 - who's to say KW was unaware that Everett had an option? That's beyond ludicrous. The decision was: go without an attempt at a replacement, or get the one guy who WAS available and who could possibly provide some production. The downside: the '05 option. There was no one else to get, so it was simply a sacrifice made to try and keep '04 alive. I suppose you'd have preferred he just give up. Or maybe that he'd just traded for one of the other solid bats that was on the market......oh yeah, there weren't any. Sheesh, some people act like ARod was being offered around and KW said "nah, I want Everett".

nitetrain8601
10-27-2004, 12:24 AM
Hey, I've got an idea, instead of retorting with something, let's just put the this thread sucks tag up. That really advances your point. Why are there so many people who want to trade Konerko because of his salary, but so few people willing to blame KW for giving him that money. Yes, Marte was a good trade, my mistake there, but the Colon trade wasn't that great. Bartolo wasn't that great last year and was just bad this year.
Soxnut: people routinely rob KW, the reason we make so many trades every year.
Randar: You criticize my posts, when your's consists of ahahahaha, a sentence, and the thread sucks guy. Now that is ironic.
I strongly agree KW is the one to be blamed. Since he knows we don't have that deep of a payroll he should know better than to give out more than 3 years 6 million dollar contracts to any player. Hey, If Freddy or Buehrle can't accept that, then take a backseat and pack your bags and get the hell out of town. 40 HR's won't get you more than 1 mil a year on the open market, so PK, you're overpaid my friend.

And Damnit, KW it's all your fault that Larry Walker and Carlos Delgado waived their no-trade clauses so they wouldn't come to us. I mean you have mind control over them and you probably didn't really want them to come. And damn you for trading HOF OF Jeremy Reed, 7 tool catcher Miguel Olivo and Mr. Cy Young - Kip Wells away. You'll burn in hell for that.

faneidde
10-27-2004, 12:41 AM
I strongly agree KW is the one to be blamed. Since he knows we don't have that deep of a payroll he should know better than to give out more than 3 years 6 million dollar contracts to any player. Hey, If Freddy or Buehrle can't accept that, then take a backseat and pack your bags and get the hell out of town. 40 HR's won't get you more than 1 mil a year on the open market, so PK, you're overpaid my friend.

And Damnit, KW it's all your fault that Larry Walker and Carlos Delgado waived their no-trade clauses so they wouldn't come to us. I mean you have mind control over them and you probably didn't really want them to come. And damn you for trading HOF OF Jeremy Reed, 7 tool catcher Miguel Olivo and Mr. Cy Young - Kip Wells away. You'll burn in hell for that.
I never said anything about Garcia or the Burly-mon. I never said anything about getting Walker or Delgado, although trading for Carlos would have been a huge mistake. What I will say things about is trading for Carl Everett and being stuck with him in right field this year for 4 mil per. And trading for Roberto Alomar when it was clear to everyone in baseball not named Kenny Williams that he was done. Kip Wells and Josh Fogg aren't great, but they are both better than Todd Ritchie. KW gave up a good prospect in Wells and a guy like Fogg for someone who only eats innings. Ritchie was never going to be a great pitcher. I blame him for trading Keith Foulke for Billy Koch. Then giving Koch to the Marlins while the Sox pay part of his salary. KW has made some good free agent signings, no one can argue that. But the whole of his performance is below par.

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 12:49 AM
I never said anything about Garcia or the Burly-mon. I never said anything about getting Walker or Delgado, although trading for Carlos would have been a huge mistake. What I will say things about is trading for Carl Everett and being stuck with him in right field this year for 4 mil per. And trading for Roberto Alomar when it was clear to everyone in baseball not named Kenny Williams that he was done. Kip Wells and Josh Fogg aren't great, but they are both better than Todd Ritchie. KW gave up a good prospect in Wells and a guy like Fogg for someone who only eats innings. Ritchie was never going to be a great pitcher. I blame him for trading Keith Foulke for Billy Koch. Then giving Koch to the Marlins while the Sox pay part of his salary. KW has made some good free agent signings, no one can argue that. But the whole of his performance is below par.
So, you didn't want Everett, which leads me to believe you were cashing it in in July when Frank went down.......

You dislike trading for Alomar despite the very high likelihood that we got him for next to nothing and it was therefore a very low risk "flier". Again- giving up rather than making an attempt with virtually nothing to lose.

You don't like Koch, but the Sox should have kept him around, and paid his full salary rather than dealing him for a guy who seems like a decent utility IF and only paying part of Billy's salary?:?:

Allow me to summarize:
:threadblows:

nitetrain8601
10-27-2004, 12:57 AM
I never said anything about Garcia or the Burly-mon. I never said anything about getting Walker or Delgado, although trading for Carlos would have been a huge mistake. What I will say things about is trading for Carl Everett and being stuck with him in right field this year for 4 mil per. And trading for Roberto Alomar when it was clear to everyone in baseball not named Kenny Williams that he was done. Kip Wells and Josh Fogg aren't great, but they are both better than Todd Ritchie. KW gave up a good prospect in Wells and a guy like Fogg for someone who only eats innings. Ritchie was never going to be a great pitcher. I blame him for trading Keith Foulke for Billy Koch. Then giving Koch to the Marlins while the Sox pay part of his salary. KW has made some good free agent signings, no one can argue that. But the whole of his performance is below par.
Obviously you haven't seen the guy's sig that has the article that clearly states Ron Schueler was behind the Ritchie deal. And under most of your posts with the exception of your last one, you make it seem like, if a team has to spend like a small market team it should not give anyone over 1 million dollars in contract. Oh yeah, how many times did Rauch deal heat his whole time with Montreal?? Where is Jeff Liefer??? It seems as if you just hate KW and you're just trying to find reasons why he should be fired. Delgado wouldn't have been a bad deal because he would've replaced Frank, he's a presence in the lineup, and he had a very good 2nd half last year and his contract only lasted through this year, so instead of giving up, it would've given us a chance, and worst case scenario we miss the playoffs and we don't have him anymore. Robbie Alomar was a fill-in. He was the best 2B that wouldn't cost anything on the market. And again what has Jeremy Reed or Miguel Olivo done to prove to anyone that they will be super-duper stars as some of you like to think?

faneidde
10-27-2004, 01:03 AM
So, you didn't want Everett, which leads me to believe you were cashing it in in July when Frank went down....... Did the move work? No. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No GM makes a trade going, I'm really gonna screw my team over here (white flag trade aside). Besides, Everett was hurt and was not an improvement over Gload at DH. And, while I wasn't for giving up last year, replacing Frank Thomas with Carl Everett wasn't going to help the Sox catch the Twins. But you seem to think it would.

You dislike trading for Alomar despite the very high likelihood that we got him for next to nothing and it was therefore a very low risk "flier". Again- giving up rather than making an attempt with virtually nothing to lose.
He is worth nothing. So we lost on this deal by next to nothing. Again, who is Alomar an improvement over? Did he help us win? No.


You don't like Koch, but the Sox should have kept him around, and paid his full salary rather than dealing him for a guy who seems like a decent utility IF and only paying part of Billy's salary?:?:
Wrong again. My point was that we essentially traded Keith Foulke and part of Billy Koch's salary for 1 year of Krotch being awful and Wilson Valdez. You think it was worth it? Again, No.

Obviously you haven't seen the guy's sig that has the article that clearly states Ron Schueler was behind the Ritchie deal. And under most of your posts with the exception of your last one, you make it seem like, if a team has to spend like a small market team it should not give anyone over 1 million dollars in contract. Oh yeah, how many times did Rauch deal heat his whole time with Montreal?? Where is Jeff Liefer??? It seems as if you just hate KW and you're just trying to find reasons why he should be fired. Delgado wouldn't have been a bad deal because he would've replaced Frank, he's a presence in the lineup, and he had a very good 2nd half last year and his contract only lasted through this year, so instead of giving up, it would've given us a chance, and worst case scenario we miss the playoffs and we don't have him anymore. Robbie Alomar was a fill-in. He was the best 2B that wouldn't cost anything on the market. And again what has Jeremy Reed or Miguel Olivo done to prove to anyone that they will be super-duper stars as some of you like to think?
Well, since Ron Schuler was behind it, it must have been good. I am not one of the Olivio/Reed all star guys. Although I was a fan of Miguel, I'd never seen Reed play and don't really follow minor league baseball. The Garcia trade, like a lot of deals KW makes, looked good at the time, but it didn't work out. Jeff Liefer was in Milwaukee last year, not sure why you care. Rauch isn't great, but Everett is a liability. He is done in the field, and I think the Sox already have a DH, but I could be wrong. So, basically the Sox got a 4 mil per year pinch hitter for a pitcher that was worth something. Robbie Alomar was the only second baseman that wouldn't cost anything on the market. Why do you think he didn't cost anything? Hmmm, maybe because he wasn't worth anything.

idseer
10-27-2004, 01:04 AM
:george strait

"i hate everything"

:faneddie, idseer, dmarte, ilikedmanuel(??????) and jeremyb1 and dadawg wherever they are

"us too"
you are mistaken. i have never called for kw's head.

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 01:12 AM
Did the move work? No. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No GM makes a trade going, I'm really gonna screw my team over here (white flag trade aside). Besides, Everett was hurt and was not an improvement over Gload at DH. And, while I wasn't for giving up last year, replacing Frank Thomas with Carl Everett wasn't going to help the Sox catch the Twins. But you seem to think it would. Everett was meant as a stopgap to help until Maggs came back (at the time of the trade, the extent of his injury was unknown). And if you really think Gload was the answer, well - I have a bridge to sell you.

Again - the choices at the time were: Ross Gload, Carl Everett, or giving up. I'll take Carl. That it didn't work is due in a large part to the injury to Maggs being season-ending. I guess that's KW's fault too.


He is worth nothing. So we lost on this deal by next to nothing. Again, who is Alomar an improvement over? Did he help us win? No.So how is it a bad trade? Cost nothing, gained nothing. At the time, Alomar was on fire (albiet for a short period). In a no-risk scenario, might as well take a chance on him keeping it up. Nothing to lose, something to gain.


Wrong again. My point was that we essentially traded Keith Foulke and part of Billy Koch's salary for 1 year of Krotch being awful and Wilson Valdez. You think it was worth it? Again, No.
The 2d deal has nothing to do with the first. I blame KW for the Koch trade (although I don't think it was forseeable that Billy turn into the worst reliever in the game, it was still a net negative on the available info at the time). But I applaud him for turning a negative into something: Valdez and $$$ (the savings on the portion of Koch's salary the Marlins picked up).

jabrch
10-27-2004, 01:31 AM
has he not learned ANYTHING from minnesota? oakland? you cant win in a medium sized maket if you trade away 5 prospects for carl everett. you can't win in a medium sized market if you trade for a washed up robbie alomar TWICE. you can't win in a small market when you send your best hitting prospect you've had in 5 years along with a 5 tool catcher away for a pitcher that can't pitch in your home park.

Your utililzation of an assinine lack of logic or understanding of the facts of any of those deals is astounding. It's a good thing there is no requirements to back up what you say with any sort of FACTS. The truth is that almost none of the guys he gave up for Alomar or Everett are legit prospects and none have any shot of making the bigs any time soon. Garcia is a legit #1 or #2. And Olivo - the great "5 tool catcher" looke worse defensively than ever before, hasn't developed any sort of power, and can't hit balls low in the strike zone. But don't let facts get in the way of your dislike for KW.

mdep524
10-27-2004, 02:08 AM
Man. Guys, if a thread is so stupid, why are you wasting your time responding to it? If a troll posts something that is not worth your time, don't respond to it! Ignore it! It will be on page 2 by tomorrow morning and we'll never see it again if nobody responds to it! I think this thread is trash. Nobody is going to convince someone on the other side of the KW-issue fence by posting in a thread like this one. Let it go!

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 02:14 AM
I posed this question earlier, and after I respond to yours I expect a response in return. If KW fails to assemble a team which wins this division in 05', will you continue to harbor this belief Williams deserves no blame?

Obviously it was not KW's fault numerous injuries stiffled 2001 and 2004 seasons, but its the responsibility of management/ownership to work over these handicaps. Cubs were in contention this entire season when Prior/Wood missed time on the DL because their rotation was deep and players stepped up.

I'll rehash info from another post incase you overlooked it. Our payroll may be low for our position in a large market, but it should be high enough to win this division. How does Minnesota do it again? They have a minor league system in which players contribute. How's our system been besides terrible and disgraceful? When a starting pitcher or second baseman isn't developed through a system we're left giving Willie Harris and Grilli starting roles. You know exactly who's at fault for diminishing our system, and his name isn't JR.

You may blame JR for our troubles, but KW does deserve a sizable amount of it as well. Who's fault is it when KW paniced following Frank's injury and re-acquired Everett, unaware Everett held a player option in 05? JR for not having a higher payroll of Williams for being stuck with a 4 million dollar statue in RF.
It depends on how the 2005 season turns out.

Ken Williams was unaware of Everett having a player's option for 2005? That news to me, or maybe you're just making **** up. :dtroll:

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 02:21 AM
Hey, I've got an idea, instead of retorting with something, let's just put the this thread sucks tag up. That really advances your point. Why are there so many people who want to trade Konerko because of his salary, but so few people willing to blame KW for giving him that money. Yes, Marte was a good trade, my mistake there, but the Colon trade wasn't that great. Bartolo wasn't that great last year and was just bad this year.
Soxnut: people routinely rob KW, the reason we make so many trades every year.
Randar: You criticize my posts, when your's consists of ahahahaha, a sentence, and the thread sucks guy. Now that is ironic.
Or maybe all of you KW bashers you get a new hobby. Why don't you visit the 400 response thread dedicated to Ken Williams before you start rehashing old **** that people are sick of defending.

Who cares how well Bartolo pitched this year? He was 15-13 with a 3.87 ERA in his tenure with the Sox. Are you telling me that wasn't worth Rocky Biddle (statistically the worst reliever in the MLB before being put in the Expos starting rotation,) Jeff Leifer (released by both the Expos and Devil Rays [doesn't get much lower than that] in 2003,) and Antonio Osuna (was injured during the 2003 season?)
IMO, Konerko was given a fair deal at the time when he signed the contract. With the exception of 2003, he was been very productive with the White Sox. I don't want to trade Konerko to save money, I want to trade him to get someone who will improve our rotation. There's a difference.

:threadsucks

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 02:26 AM
Well, since Ron Schuler was behind it, it must have been good.
He's not saying it was a good move because Schueler made it, he's saying Schueler was the one who made the horrible trade.

And I was the one who used to have the Schueler quote in my sig.

:schueler
""I was behind that trade, although I didn't feel it was necessary for us to give them the kid [Fogg]. We felt we could straighten out Todd's mechanics, but it didn't happen. I still think he can be a good pitcher.''

www.addictsports.com/baseball/archive/index.php/t-13330.html (http://www.addictsports.com/baseball/archive/index.php/t-13330.html)

CubKilla
10-27-2004, 02:30 AM
Ken Williams was unaware of Everett having a player's option for 2005? That news to me, or maybe you're just making **** up. :dtroll:
If that's the case, KW needs to be given his walking papers.

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 02:41 AM
If that's the case, KW needs to be given his walking papers.
Sure, why not? DMarte708 seems to be a credible source on knowing what KW is thinking. :rolleyes:

CubKilla
10-27-2004, 02:43 AM
Sure, why not? DMarte708 seems to be a credible source on knowing what KW is thinking. :rolleyes:
My comment has nothing to do with DMarte's opinion and everything to do with whether or not KW knew C Everett's contract status.

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 02:56 AM
My comment has nothing to do with DMarte's opinion and everything to do with whether or not KW knew C Everett's contract status.*** makes you think that KW didn't know if Carl Everett had an option next year? DMarte pulled that idea out of his ass. It had everything to do with DMarte708's comment.

SOXSINCE'70
10-27-2004, 08:12 AM
I talked to my Dad this weekend.He lives in NJ,not far from where
the Phillies play.He told me all the pressure in 2005 is on their GM,
Ed Wade.He fired Larry Bowa after setting him up for failure by
not giving Bowa enough ammo to work with after the 2003
season.If the Sox don't get it done in 2005 (and I believe,barring
an all out miracle,they won't) then yes,Williams should be gone.
He's been given 2001,'02,'03 and '04.Nothing has changed.
As far as i'm concerned,to quote Dan Patrick on "Sports Center",
"Ken Williams,you are in the hot seat".:angry: :angry:

gosox41
10-27-2004, 08:17 AM
KW wants to win. He tries to win. His hands are tied by ownership that refuses to spend the necessary money to win. What more do you want from him? Should he magically convince Beltran to sign with the Sox for half as much as he would get from the Yankees? Maybe he should convince the Diamondbacks to trade Randy Johnson straight up for Carl Everett, that way he doesn't have to "sell the farm."

Seriously, we all are frustrated with this team, but it's too easy to point the finger at KW. He's aggressive, and he makes some mistakes, but he's a whole lot better than Schuler. If you're going to point fingers, point them at an ownership group that doesn't realize that you have to spend money to make money.

Is that what Twins fans say about their ownership? Sox outspent the Twins 3 years in a row andhave 3 second place finishes to show for it. It's not all about money, but is a convenient excuse for KW supporters.

Don't confuse aggressive with stupid.


Bob

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 08:33 AM
Man. Guys, if a thread is so stupid, why are you wasting your time responding to it? If a troll posts something that is not worth your time, don't respond to it! Ignore it! It will be on page 2 by tomorrow morning and we'll never see it again if nobody responds to it! I think this thread is trash. Nobody is going to convince someone on the other side of the KW-issue fence by posting in a thread like this one. Let it go!
You are correct, sir. Sometimes, I just can't help myself. I'm going to take your advice, thanks for the shot of reality.

fquaye149
10-27-2004, 08:46 AM
Is that what Twins fans say about their ownership? Sox outspent the Twins 3 years in a row andhave 3 second place finishes to show for it. It's not all about money, but is a convenient excuse for KW supporters.

Don't confuse aggressive with stupid.


Bob

this is another topic that has been beaten into the ground.

Terri Ryan does not make free agent signings and trades that help his team/don't hurt his team any more than KW (david ortiz anyone?)

he's the beneficiary of a very strong minor league system and a series of mid 90's high draft picks based on the fact that they sucked eggs at that point.

that doesn't mean he is a worthless GM but to compare him as a GM to Kenny is just silly.

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 09:19 AM
this is another topic that has been beaten into the ground.

Terri Ryan does not make free agent signings and trades that help his team/don't hurt his team any more than KW (david ortiz anyone?)

he's the beneficiary of a very strong minor league system and a series of mid 90's high draft picks based on the fact that they sucked eggs at that point.

that doesn't mean he is a worthless GM but to compare him as a GM to Kenny is just silly.
Yeah, but Schueler's system was rank #1 back in 2000. And it's only a matter of time until one of these haters blames KW for those chumps not turning into major league stars.

PaulDrake
10-27-2004, 09:36 AM
If he were to depart, I wouldn't be upset about it. I've said it before, I'll say it again, his effort is great, the results, mediocre at best. That sums up KW as well as anything IMHO. He also seems to have an arrogant, thin skinned streak too. If the results were top notch you could put up with it. He's a below par GM, and given who he's working for we need someone much better than that. Nonetheless his Q rating seems high on this board.

SoxFanTillDeath
10-27-2004, 09:55 AM
I am not a KW lover or a KW hater. I want to see the White Sox win. What I find funny, though, is when all of these trades were made, practically every Sox fan was so happy they were (almost) willing to hug a Cubs fan, and now a few months later they want KW fired for it. Make up your minds.

Also, you cannnot judge KW until you see the final result of all of his moves. Most of what he traded away was prospects, so you can't make a final judgement until you know exactly what those prospects do in their careers and what the players the sox got end up doing for the sox.

And you cannot place the blame on KW for a weak minor league system. With the Sox stuck at mediocrity, KW has not had a high draft pick to get a guy who would spend 1 year in the minors and be a stud in the majors. All the guys he's gotten were guys with high ceilings that needed some time in the minors. The current minor league situation is the previous GM's fault, not KW's. Our minors are weak in the higher levels and very strong in the lower levels. Take a guess which players Ron S. is responsible for and which players KW is.

Why don't you guys find someone else to whine about. You keep bringing up the same old crap and rehashing the same things over and over again. The facts: The Sox players have not played up to the level that the Sox organization and every other organization had projected them to play at, and that is exclusively their fault. How about someone start a thread blaming the players for not getting the job done, because ultimately it doesn't matter what KW does....if the players don't play than the Sox don't win.

OK, go back to your whining now. Sheesh...you guys are starting to sound like cub fans...

**********************
crc#4
:bandance:

I'm ssang, and I'm still an IDIOT!
10-27-2004, 10:08 AM
I love this thread. I agree that Ken Williams has to go. He is a miserable GM with a huge UNWARRANTED ego. He has handcuffed himself with some of the salaries he created for our players. It really pisses me off when KW bicthes about the lack of funds from his boss. He sucks and for anyone who defends him.....WAKE UP!

faneidde
10-27-2004, 10:15 AM
I am not a KW lover or a KW hater. I want to see the White Sox win. What I find funny, though, is when all of these trades were made, practically every Sox fan was so happy they were (almost) willing to hug a Cubs fan, and now a few months later they want KW fired for it. Make up your minds.
Who was happy about acquiring Carl Everett or Robby Alomar this year. I was the year before, but I'm not the GM. Results. Everyone who defends KW defends his intentions, not his results. A lot of people were also unhappy with the Foulke trade.

Also, you cannnot judge KW until you see the final result of all of his moves. Most of what he traded away was prospects, so you can't make a final judgement until you know exactly what those prospects do in their careers and what the players the sox got end up doing for the sox.
You can't fully judge how bad they were yet. If any of the prospects the Sox traded away turns into a star, it will make all the trades that much worse. I liked the Garcia trade at the time, although I really hated to give away Olivo, and I think the Sox might have given up too much. The Colon trade was handed to the Sox on a silver platter by the Yankees to keep Bartolo out of Boston, so who didn't like that?

And you cannot place the blame on KW for a weak minor league system. With the Sox stuck at mediocrity, KW has not had a high draft pick to get a guy who would spend 1 year in the minors and be a stud in the majors. All the guys he's gotten were guys with high ceilings that needed some time in the minors. The current minor league situation is the previous GM's fault, not KW's. Our minors are weak in the higher levels and very strong in the lower levels. Take a guess which players Ron S. is responsible for and which players KW is.
KW hasn't had a chance to draft a Joe Mauer or Mark Prior, but he did have the chance to not draft Royce Ring. I don't follow the minors, so I can only go on what people say and the Sox farm system is by almost every account weak.

Why don't you guys find someone else to whine about. You keep bringing up the same old crap and rehashing the same things over and over again. The facts: The Sox players have not played up to the level that the Sox organization and every other organization had projected them to play at, and that is exclusively their fault. How about someone start a thread blaming the players for not getting the job done, because ultimately it doesn't matter what KW does....if the players don't play than the Sox don't win.
The players haven't player up to our expectations. They have played up to just the predictions of others. ESPN every year predicts all the divisions, and every year most people pick the Twins because they are better than the Sox. Ultimatley, if the players are to blame, so is the GM for getting those players.

Iwritecode
10-27-2004, 10:39 AM
I don't follow the minors, so I can only go on what people say and the Sox farm system is by almost every account weak.

So you're bashing KW for something that you know nothing about?!?

WOW...

faneidde
10-27-2004, 10:42 AM
So you're bashing KW for something that you know nothing about?!?

WOW...
Yeah, but I read about it. I'm saying I don't personally follow the minors (i.e. I have never seen the Birmingham Barons play), but people who's job it is to do that say our minor league system is not nearly as strong as it once was and is one of the weaker in baseball.

shagar69
10-27-2004, 11:15 AM
why are we going over the same crap again? KW is a decent GM, not a great one. he has a couple years left to show us whether or not his drafts will pan out. if not, he has not excuses. fire him.

Iwritecode
10-27-2004, 11:20 AM
Yeah, but I read about it. I'm saying I don't personally follow the minors (i.e. I have never seen the Birmingham Barons play), but people who's job it is to do that say our minor league system is not nearly as strong as it once was and is one of the weaker in baseball.

Yea and just 2 or 3 years ago the Sox had the #1 system in baseball. You see where that got them.

Judging a minor leauge system isn't an exact science...

JKryl
10-27-2004, 11:24 AM
I've had it with this clown. Every time he opens his mouth he says something stupid. Every time he makes a trade it blows up. His drafts are not good.

Look, I've been posting here for awhile now, and I'm not normally the type to call for people to go. But, other than lucking out with Uribe and Loaiza, I can't think of a single good thing KW has done. He traded Foulke for Koch, and we all know how well that worked out. I liked his aggressiveness last year, he improved the team without giving up much. This year, he sold the farm to Seattle for Freddy Garcia, which wasn't all that bad at the time, but it didn't work out. Then he traded for Alomar and Everett again. And who can blame him, since that worked out so well the year before. Now, we're stuck with Crazy Carl in right this year. Some of his moves have looked good on paper or at the time, but not one trade he has made can be classified as a steal for the Sox and most have completely sucked. On top of all that, he is arrogant about his ignorance. Never admitting a mistake.

In summation, KW is to GMs as Joe Carter was to color guys.
You'd better be carefull of what you wish for, I hear Jerry Krause is looking for a new job.:bandance::bandance::supernana::bandance::band ance:

I_Liked_Manuel
10-27-2004, 12:47 PM
Your utililzation of an assinine lack of logic or understanding of the facts of any of those deals is astounding. It's a good thing there is no requirements to back up what you say with any sort of FACTS. The truth is that almost none of the guys he gave up for Alomar or Everett are legit prospects and none have any shot of making the bigs any time soon. Garcia is a legit #1 or #2. And Olivo - the great "5 tool catcher" looke worse defensively than ever before, hasn't developed any sort of power, and can't hit balls low in the strike zone. But don't let facts get in the way of your dislike for KW.


so what you're saying to me is that by trotting jackson out to the mound last year we were better off than we would have been with fransisco? nice try.

CubKilla
10-27-2004, 01:03 PM
I've always maintained that KW is in way over his head as GM of the White Sox. Of course, his boss doesn't make it easy for him, but some of the trades he has made..... most recently, the reacquisition of R Alomar Jr..... make me throw my hands in the air and say, "***?" His bad trades have far outweighed his good trades and I am in complete agreement with the assessment that the '05 season should be KW's make or break season. KW will have had half a decade to get the White Sox back into the postseason where they were when KW was named GM.

IMHO, the damage done by KW won't be completely realized by Sox fans until long after KW has left the White Sox Organization..... minor leagues on up.

gosox41
10-27-2004, 01:07 PM
I am not a KW lover or a KW hater. I want to see the White Sox win. What I find funny, though, is when all of these trades were made, practically every Sox fan was so happy they were (almost) willing to hug a Cubs fan, and now a few months later they want KW fired for it. Make up your minds.

Also, you cannnot judge KW until you see the final result of all of his moves. Most of what he traded away was prospects, so you can't make a final judgement until you know exactly what those prospects do in their careers and what the players the sox got end up doing for the sox.

And you cannot place the blame on KW for a weak minor league system. With the Sox stuck at mediocrity, KW has not had a high draft pick to get a guy who would spend 1 year in the minors and be a stud in the majors. All the guys he's gotten were guys with high ceilings that needed some time in the minors. The current minor league situation is the previous GM's fault, not KW's. Our minors are weak in the higher levels and very strong in the lower levels. Take a guess which players Ron S. is responsible for and which players KW is.

Why don't you guys find someone else to whine about. You keep bringing up the same old crap and rehashing the same things over and over again. The facts: The Sox players have not played up to the level that the Sox organization and every other organization had projected them to play at, and that is exclusively their fault. How about someone start a thread blaming the players for not getting the job done, because ultimately it doesn't matter what KW does....if the players don't play than the Sox don't win.

OK, go back to your whining now. Sheesh...you guys are starting to sound like cub fans...

**********************
crc#4
:bandance:
Obviously you don't read enough of me to see my opinions of some of these trades or you would know that would be far from the truth.

As for the final result of his moves, KW has had a win now mentality. Maybe 2003 wasn't the best way to judge him because Frank and Magglio missed a combined 200 games. But I've judged that year and every other year. And he has failed with the win now mentality.

Now if he had a 'let's be mediocre' mentality it's another thing. But seriously, KW has chosen this path to win now and do whatever it takes. Whether it's his excuse for drafting a reliever in the first round of a draft to signing Sandy Alomar to 3 different contracts to trading for Roberto and Carl twice. He is trying to win now. And by win, I know he was looking at the WS, but he can't even get the team to the playoffs.

As for blaiming the players, I do that too. Why do you think I've been wanting to trade the one dimensional Paul Konerko? But let's face it, some of these players aren't that talented. I don't expect a Ross Gload to be a star, he's average at best. Timo Perez? Career below average. Grilli? Diaz? Garland? There's only so much blame that can be passed on to the players when the reason they don't do better is because they probably can't. Gload's never going to hit 40 HR's for you. Grilli won't win 18-20 games in a season. Cotts won't find the strike zone. It is what it is.

It's the GM's job to fill the biggest gaping holes. It's the GM's job to figure out why they haven't been playing up to the organziation's expectations. KW has been around here since the early '90's. He is part of that organization you speak of.

Also, (on a bit of a tangent) how come some find it convenient to blame Schu for previous drafts when he was GM and KW was head of player development. But when I go on to blame KW for the last 4 drafts I am immediately called out as clueless because KW doesn't run the drafts. If that's the case then let's not blame Schu either. Sounds to me like certain FOK's want to have it both ways, hate Schu for a lousy system but KW gets none of the blame for the current woes of this team.


Bob

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 01:13 PM
Who was happy about acquiring Carl Everett or Robby Alomar this year. I was the year before, but I'm not the GM. Results. Everyone who defends KW defends his intentions, not his results. A lot of people were also unhappy with the Foulke trade.
A lot of people were happy about the second Carl Everett trade, even some of the biggest critics of our organization.

www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=38364&highlight=Everett (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=38364&highlight=Everett)

this is a very good trade considering the guys we gave up. Notorious KW basher.

I am very happy to see Carl back with the Sox. I hope that he can contribute anything close to his time here last season I think it was around ten home runs and 40 RBI's in three months.
Since I'm a pretty harsh KW critic I thought I should at least give him credit where credit is due. This is a very good move.
But go ahead an keep talking out of your ass making false statements to prove your point.:rolleyes:

chisoxt
10-27-2004, 01:14 PM
KW wants to win. He tries to win. His hands are tied by ownership that refuses to spend the necessary money to win. What more do you want from him? Should he magically convince Beltran to sign with the Sox for half as much as he would get from the Yankees? Maybe he should convince the Diamondbacks to trade Randy Johnson straight up for Carl Everett, that way he doesn't have to "sell the farm."

Seriously, we all are frustrated with this team, but it's too easy to point the finger at KW. He's aggressive, and he makes some mistakes, but he's a whole lot better than Schuler. If you're going to point fingers, point them at an ownership group that doesn't realize that you have to spend money to make money.
What bologna! Other GMs like Beane and Ryan also have their hands tied and they manage just fine, thank you. The only thing that Kenny knows how to do when it comes to trading players is to swap better prospects for over-the-hill, high proced veterans. And, in order to get the other team to hold onto more salary, he has to give up more in return. Being aggressive isn't always the best way to go. Sometime it takes patience. And don't tell me its been 45 years since we were in a world series, because I guarantee you, that with Kenny Williams in charge, it will probably be 45 more years. Please get rid of this incompetent.

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 01:17 PM
so what you're saying to me is that by trotting jackson out to the mound last year we were better off than we would have been with fransisco? nice try.
The 2003 team would've been dead before September if it weren't for Carl. He was the only one in hitting in that dreaded month of 2003. I'm sure you would've been all over KW for not making a move to improve the offense if that were the case.

And since you're such a big fan of the chair-tossing, lunatic, I would like to know if you know how he was brought to this organization.

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 01:18 PM
His bad trades have far outweighed his good trades
You have that ass-backwards. Do we need to start yet another tally on the moves KW has made again? :?:

fquaye149
10-27-2004, 01:23 PM
What bologna! Other GMs like Beane and Ryan also have their hands tied and they manage just fine, thank you. The only thing that Kenny knows how to do when it comes to trading players is to swap better prospects for over-the-hill, high proced veterans. And, in order to get the other team to hold onto more salary, he has to give up more in return. Being aggressive isn't always the best way to go. Sometime it takes patience. And don't tell me its been 45 years since we were in a world series, because I guarantee you, that with Kenny Williams in charge, it will probably be 45 more years. Please get rid of this incompetent.
why don't you go back and read my post in this very thread on this topic.

comparing beane and ryan to kw is like apples to oranges. beane and ryan aren't dealers really. they thrive off a strong farm system. kw has not inherited a team that has been ****ty in the past and has not had high draft picks in his system. therefore he must rely on acquisitions to make his team better.

really, ryan and beane have not made great deals or signings. ryan signed stewart and rogers last years, but he's let ortiz and mientkiewicz go. he can afford not to make moves and let people go because his minor league system is strong. he doesn't have to deal garbage like ring and co. to get passable players because he has lew ford, justin morneau etc.

you can blame the sox' hanging around the top of the division or schueler for their lousy minor league system or KW himself when he worked in the minors. However, KW the GM has little to do with the futility in the minors. In fact, his major draft picks seem to be working out very well (anderson, sweeney, etc.)

Ol' No. 2
10-27-2004, 01:25 PM
What a creative thread. :rolleyes:

:threadsucksHey, I've got and idea. Let's start a thread about what a cheapskate Jerry Reinsdorf is and how he's making tons of money off the Sox. He really should sell.

jabrch
10-27-2004, 01:25 PM
so what you're saying to me is that by trotting jackson out to the mound last year we were better off than we would have been with fransisco? nice try.
I never knew those were our options. What's your source? What if the option was actually Francisco or Shingo? And by the way, if the best we gave up was Francisco, and it put us in position where we were able to remain competitive in both 2003 and 2004, then that's fine with me. I'd bet you that if KW didn't make moves to acquire an OF/DH in each of those years you'd be the type to bitch that he was white flagging it when he should have been being competitive.

yeah - nice try to you.

BITCH BITCH BITCH...Sometimes it doesn't surprise me that the ownership committee refuses to spend any money out of their own pocket, or reduce the annual payout to the owners. It seems like no matter what ownership/management do the fans bitch about it.

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 01:26 PM
Who was happy about acquiring Carl Everett or Robby Alomar this year. I was the year before, but I'm not the GM. Results. Everyone who defends KW defends his intentions, not his results. A lot of people were also unhappy with the Foulke trade.
KW hasn't had a chance to draft a Joe Mauer or Mark Prior, but he did have the chance to not draft Royce Ring. I don't follow the minors, so I can only go on what people say and the Sox farm system is by almost every account weak.
You do realize how we acquired Robby in the deal you were happy about "the year before", don't you?


You can't fully judge how bad they were yet. If any of the prospects the Sox traded away turns into a star, it will make all the trades that much worse. I liked the Garcia trade at the time, although I really hated to give away Olivo, and I think the Sox might have given up too much. The Colon trade was handed to the Sox on a silver platter by the Yankees to keep Bartolo out of Boston, so who didn't like that? And why wasn't it then handed to any number of other teams? Your logic is that any successes are luck (Uribe, Loaiza), and failures are 100% his fault, and anything that's neutral or undecided is negative because "they didn't win".

As for the prospects, if none of them turns out to do anything, then the trades were good because you traded nothing of long term value for something that could have helped short term.

(sigh) Fell for it again.

Iwritecode
10-27-2004, 01:30 PM
kw has not inherited a team that has been ****ty in the past and has not had high draft picks in his system. therefore he must rely on acquisitions to make his team better.

Just wanted to point this quote out in case anyone missed the first time around. All these second and third place finishes for the last 10+ years have killed the Sox draft positions.


Just read my signature...

jabrch
10-27-2004, 01:38 PM
Just wanted to point this quote out in case anyone missed the first time around. All these second and third place finishes for the last 10+ years have killed the Sox draft positions.
Exactly! Can you imagine if we were as crappy as Oakland, Minnesota, the Cubs, the Mets, etc. were for 5+ year stretches of time before going on their runs? Can you imagine the noise coming from the bitchers? Look at Oakland before they went on their run. Look at Cleveland the past 3 years. Look at the Cubs futitility for decades before last season. Look at the Twins between their last WS and the past 3 years. I can only imagine it...

That's exactly the problem. We can't rebuild cuz our fans don't have the stomach for it. (what would attendance be like if we had a 60 win season or two?) We can't retool cuz our ownership doesn't have the money for it. And we have yet to hit a jackpot few drafts with 3-4 players each making the bigs including multiple allstars - cuz the odds are better to hit a royal flush than to have that happen.

chisoxt
10-27-2004, 01:40 PM
why don't you go back and read my post in this very thread on this topic.

comparing beane and ryan to kw is like apples to oranges. beane and ryan aren't dealers really. they thrive off a strong farm system. kw has not inherited a team that has been ****ty in the past and has not had high draft picks in his system. therefore he must rely on acquisitions to make his team better.

really, ryan and beane have not made great deals or signings. ryan signed stewart and rogers last years, but he's let ortiz and mientkiewicz go. he can afford not to make moves and let people go because his minor league system is strong. he doesn't have to deal garbage like ring and co. to get passable players because he has lew ford, justin morneau etc.

you can blame the sox' hanging around the top of the division or schueler for their lousy minor league system or KW himself when he worked in the minors. However, KW the GM has little to do with the futility in the minors. In fact, his major draft picks seem to be working out very well (anderson, sweeney, etc.)
It is my strong opinion that given the Sox financial position, they would be better served as an organization to adopt the startegy of building from within, like Oakland and Minnesota. To many, the disadvantage of doing it this way is that it takes a lot of time, patience and work to get the right people (scouts, coaches) in place to make it work. The main advantage is that this approach is a sustainable one long term. In other words, as long as you're always bringing up good prospects, so what if you lose a player or two to free agency. Contrast this with how Kenny has been managing his personnel the last few years by essentially using his minor league system to acquire rent-a-players. (Frankly, the very types of players that should be obtained via free agency in the off season). The disadvantage of this approach is the obvious...what happens when you run out of prospects to trade? Also, are we not simply creating a larger payroll and not necessarily getting much better in return?? These are some compelling reasons that explain why so few teams, except the Sox, use this approach.

Iwritecode
10-27-2004, 01:48 PM
It is my strong opinion that given the Sox financial position, they would be better served as an organization to adopt the startegy of building from within, like Oakland and Minnesota. To many, the disadvantage of doing it this way is that it takes a lot of time, patience and work to get the right people (scouts, coaches) in place to make it work. The main advantage is that this approach is a sustainable one long term. In other words, as long as you're always bringing up good prospects, so what if you lose a player or two to free agency. Contrast this with how Kenny has been managing his personnel the last few years by essentially using his minor league system to acquire rent-a-players. (Frankly, the very types of players that should be obtained via free agency in the off season). The disadvantage of this approach is the obvious...what happens when you run out of prospects to trade? Also, are we not simply creating a larger payroll and not necessarily getting much better in return?? These are some compelling reasons that explain why so few teams, except the Sox, use this approach.

Somebody (I wish I could remember who or find the post) made a great point on here one time.

Something along the lines of how the Sox are trying to take two different approaches at the same time and neither one is working. On one hand they make some pretty big deals (getting Wells or Colon for example) and actually act like a major-market team. Then they try to fill in the left-over holes with minor-league guys like a smaller market team. The result is this decade of second-place finishes. They need to pick one strategy and stick with it.

wolcott10
10-27-2004, 01:50 PM
Suppose KW is fired, who is going to replace him?

JR probably would hire another guy with no experience as GM.

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 01:55 PM
Suppose KW is fired, who is going to replace him?

JR probably would hire another guy with no experience as GM.

Ladies and gentleman, please welcome Lip Man 1 Jr. to the conversation. :D:

And yes, I think that is exactly what JR would do. I'm sure some of these KW bashers can find a suitable replacement for KW in no time.

Wealz
10-27-2004, 02:21 PM
There's no need to defend Williams his record says it all. Tying up $12M in Jose Contreras will be the death knell to his regime.

Iwritecode
10-27-2004, 02:24 PM
Suppose KW is fired, who is going to replace him?

JR probably would hire another guy with no experience as GM.

I don't think the Red Sox GM had any previous experience.

Of course when you have a payroll over $100 million to play with that kinda makes a difference.

Makes you wonder what KW would be capable with that kind of payroll...

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 02:27 PM
I don't think the Red Sox GM had any previous experience.


Or Gerry Hunsicker
Or Terry Ryan
Or Brian Cashman
Or Walt Jocketty
Or Bill Stoneman
Or Paul dePodesta

That covers the playoff teams (I think Schuerholz may have GM'd somewhere else, otherwise add him to the list).

For good measure:
Or Brian Sabean
Or Jim Hendry
Or Billy Beane

Damn that JR, flaunting the obvious success in baseball of going with experienced GMs and cheaping out!!!

kittle42
10-27-2004, 02:31 PM
I've had it with these threads.

Wealz
10-27-2004, 02:33 PM
It is my strong opinion that given the Sox financial position, they would be better served as an organization to adopt the startegy of building from within, like Oakland and Minnesota.
You know it's not just a strategy for small market teams. Building through the minors is the only route to sustained success for every team. How many playoffs appearances or World Series would the Yankees have without Jeter, Williams, Posada, Pettitte, or Rivera?

gosox41
10-27-2004, 02:35 PM
Somebody (I wish I could remember who or find the post) made a great point on here one time.

Something along the lines of how the Sox are trying to take two different approaches at the same time and neither one is working. On one hand they make some pretty big deals (getting Wells or Colon for example) and actually act like a major-market team. Then they try to fill in the left-over holes with minor-league guys like a smaller market team. The result is this decade of second-place finishes. They need to pick one strategy and stick with it.
I think I may have said something about KW's lack of direction. It was probably in repsonse to the original poster. But this is entirely the reason I don't want Beltran. I should clarify this because people will use that one sentence against me. Beltran alone doesn't bring this team a pennant. They have too many other holes to fill that will require spending some money since our farm system is barren. If the Sox make one big move and scrimp elsewhere, I don't see it doing much good for the team.

2003 taught us that when you lose your big boppers (and big salaries) to injuries, this team is hosed. They need to build depth to sustain a loss of a star. What if the Sox got Beltran and he got hurt like Magglio? I'd rather fill 3-4 holes.

Of course if the Sox sign Beltran and also fill these holes with good players, then I am all in favor of Beltran. I just don't see it happening.


Bob

gosox41
10-27-2004, 02:38 PM
You know it's not just a strategy for small market teams. Building through the minors is the only route to sustained success for every team. How many playoffs appearances or World Series would the Yankees have without Jeter, Williams, Posada, Pettitte, or Rivera?

Exactly. People bring up Minnesota and all their high draft picks helping them. How many top 10 draft picks that they drafted have helped them win the last 3 years? Not as many as those people think.

Having the 15th-18th pick in the draft isn't the worst thing in the world. It is still possible to build a strong farm system. Especvially when there are years the team has 6 or 8 of the first 60 picks because they lost players to free agency.



Bob

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 02:38 PM
2003 taught us that when you lose your big boppers (and big salaries) to injuries, this team is hosed. They need to build depth to sustain a loss of a star. What if the Sox got Beltran and he got hurt like Magglio? I'd rather fill 3-4 holes.



BobThe problem is that if you don't have injuries, you end up with a solid team with a shot at the playoffs and that's it. At some point, you need some stars to come through, and without them you're at risk of most likely losing to teams that do have healthy stars.

Personally, I don't think you plan your team around the potential loss of a star. You try to build some quality depth, but in a tradeoff between depth and top-flight talent, I'll take the talent, unless your team is so shallow that you'd be starting 2 stars and 7 guys off of WSI (I don't think the Sox are in that position).

gosox41
10-27-2004, 02:43 PM
The problem is that if you don't have injuries, you end up with a solid team with a shot at the playoffs and that's it. At some point, you need some stars to come through, and without them you're at risk of most likely losing to teams that do have healthy stars.

Personally, I don't think you plan your team around the potential loss of a star. You try to build some quality depth, but in a tradeoff between depth and top-flight talent, I'll take the talent, unless your team is so shallow that you'd be starting 2 stars and 7 guys off of WSI (I don't think the Sox are in that position).
I just don't like putting all my eggs in one basket. For example, Frank is coming off an injury. I am a big Frank fan and think he's great. But what if that injury does mess him up next year? IMHO, just getting Beltran isn't going to cut it. Get Vizquel. Get a second baseman or another right fielder. And of course get a starting pitcher.

Or to think of it another way:

Beltran is a superstar and may get a $16 mill. per year contract. If the Sox spread that money over 4 quality players(including pitching), are they a better team?

Of course I'd be thrilled if JR/KW signs Beltran and also fills other holes.


Bob

JKryl
10-27-2004, 02:47 PM
Suppose KW is fired, who is going to replace him?

JR probably would hire another guy with no experience as GM.
If you read my earlier post, you'd know Jerry Krause is available!

JKryl
10-27-2004, 02:50 PM
I think someone touched a nerve with this thread. This seems like it's one of the fasters growing threads in a long time. People must really like KW.:D:

oneil78
10-27-2004, 02:50 PM
Umm, is this the White Sox Message Board of a fantasy land? Beltran ain't commin' here. And Frank is about 94 years old, putting any hope in him is stupid.

Sox don't have much money to spend this winter kids and last I checked this team doesn't have anything on the major league or in the minors.

Jjav829
10-27-2004, 02:55 PM
Umm, is this the White Sox Message Board of a fantasy land? Beltran ain't commin' here. And Frank is about 94 years old, putting any hope in him is stupid.

Sox don't have much money to spend this winter kids and last I checked this team doesn't have anything on the major league or in the minors.Such an optimistic first post!

fquaye149
10-27-2004, 03:00 PM
it's about as optimistic as a :dtroll: can muster

faneidde
10-27-2004, 03:07 PM
Such an optimistic first post!
I'm not usually one of those doomsday people ready to get rid of all the players and the manager after every bad game. Its just a pattern of lack of results that I can't handle. All you KW defenders have are excuses, while we bashers have facts. The Sox haven't gotten in done the past few years. Jerry Manuel took the fall last year, KW needs to walk the plank this year.

faneidde
10-27-2004, 03:12 PM
it's about as optimistic as a :dtroll: can muster
Yup, I'm a troll. I am so against KW from the beginning that I waited until post #600 to show my true colors as a Cub fan who loves moneyball and has hated KW since he ran over my dog and stole my wife.
That's twice I've been accused of being a troll for saying something that some people disagree with. Next time someone posts we should sign Carlos Beltran, the dancing troll is coming out.

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 03:23 PM
I'm not usually one of those doomsday people ready to get rid of all the players and the manager after every bad game. Its just a pattern of lack of results that I can't handle. All you KW defenders have are excuses, while we bashers have facts. The Sox haven't gotten in done the past few years. Jerry Manuel took the fall last year, KW needs to walk the plank this year.
The lack of any strong linkage between the facts you have and the conclusions you draw is the issue. That and the fact that what you call "facts" are often not true (i.e. KW has never had a steal, ignoring things like Colon, Marte, or "KW had no idea Everett had an option year").

Iwritecode
10-27-2004, 03:27 PM
Yup, I'm a troll. I am so against KW from the beginning that I waited until post #600 to show my true colors as a Cub fan who loves moneyball and has hated KW since he ran over my dog and stole my wife.
That's twice I've been accused of being a troll for saying something that some people disagree with. Next time someone posts we should sign Carlos Beltran, the dancing troll is coming out.

I don't think he was talking about you...

Wealz
10-27-2004, 03:29 PM
The lack of any strong linkage between the facts you have and the conclusions you draw is the issue. That and the fact that what you call "facts" are often not true (i.e. KW has never had a steal, ignoring things like Colon, Marte, or "KW had no idea Everett had an option year").
Flight, are you satisfied with the state of this organization as it stands on October 27, 2004?

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 03:48 PM
Flight, are you satisfied with the state of this organization as it stands on October 27, 2004?
Satisfied? No. Do I think it's KW's fault? Not entirely. I think he's made some bad moves that have blown up and been much worse than could have been anticipated (Ritchie, Koch). He's also made some good moves that have been sabotaged by injuries (2001, 2004), and incompetent managing (2003).

I judge him by the talent that he assembles and based on information available at the time of the moves he makes. Thus while Foulke for Koch was a net loss for the Sox, it wasn't the ridiculously bad trade that it ended up being since there was little to no reasonable expectation that Koch would so completely fall off the table.

IMO, the real judge of KW as GM will be in the next 2 years when we see the crop of prospects developed under his GM watch and when we see what happens to the guys he's traded away. Personally, I have a solid estimation of the guys we have in the system now, and not that great an expectation of most/all of the guys we traded away, with the exception of Reed, & possibly Rupe.

Wealz
10-27-2004, 04:30 PM
I judge him by the talent that he assembles and based on information available at the time of the moves he makes. Thus while Foulke for Koch was a net loss for the Sox, it wasn't the ridiculously bad trade that it ended up being since there was little to no reasonable expectation that Koch would so completely fall off the table.
In my view, the Koch trade is a primary example of Williams incompetence. Not because Koch was terrible while Foulke flourished, not even because Williams signed Koch for two years instead of letting him go to arbitration. The Koch trade showed Williams incompetence because Koch did not come here as advertised. Koch's fastball was nowhere near the 97-100+ mph with the Sox that it had been with the A's and Jays.

The least we can ask of Williams is to make sure he gets what he trades for.

Foulke29
10-27-2004, 04:36 PM
In my view, the Koch trade is a primary example of Williams incompetence. Not because Koch was terrible while Foulke flourished, not even because Williams signed Koch for two years instead of letting him go to arbitration. The Koch trade showed Williams incompetence because Koch did not come here as advertised. Koch's fastball was nowhere near the 97-100+ mph with the Sox that it had been with the A's and Jays.

The least we can ask of Williams is to make sure he gets what he trades for.
I will give this credit to Williams on getting rid of Foulke - after dismantling the core of pitchers that all 'came up' together - Sirotka, Howry, Parque, etc. - Foulke was not going to stay. The relationships that those guys built were a part of why KW knew he wouldn't stay.

That said, Koch sucks, and Williams could have received so much more for Foulke!

kittle42
10-27-2004, 04:40 PM
I will give this credit to Williams on getting rid of Foulke - after dismantling the core of pitchers that all 'came up' together - Sirotka, Howry, Parque, etc. - Foulke was not going to stay. The relationships that those guys built were a part of why KW knew he wouldn't stay.
That's ridiculous.

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 04:43 PM
In my view, the Koch trade is a primary example of Williams incompetence. Not because Koch was terrible while Foulke flourished, not even because Williams signed Koch for two years instead of letting him go to arbitration. The Koch trade showed Williams incompetence because Koch did not come here as advertised. Koch's fastball was nowhere near the 97-100+ mph with the Sox that it had been with the A's and Jays.

The least we can ask of Williams is to make sure he gets what he trades for.
I'd be surprised if KW didn't know that was the case. It was widely known at the end of his Oakland year. What was difficult to forsee was that it would continue to decline rather than returning with rest (as is usually the case for guys like that with high workloads). He doesn't have any significant arm problems (no surgery), so medical checkups woulnd't likely show anything.

However, if ther was no exam or "test pitching" to gauge his velocity and the chance of it returning, I'd agree that that is a sign of incompetence. As I said, I'd be very surprised if that was the case.

Foulke29
10-27-2004, 04:49 PM
That's ridiculous.
It's not at all. It's the tightest White Sox pitching staff I'd ever seen - ala the Tigers brawl.

Wealz
10-27-2004, 05:07 PM
I'd be surprised if KW didn't know that was the case. It was widely known at the end of his Oakland year. What was difficult to forsee was that it would continue to decline rather than returning with rest (as is usually the case for guys like that with high workloads). He doesn't have any significant arm problems (no surgery), so medical checkups woulnd't likely show anything.

However, if ther was no exam or "test pitching" to gauge his velocity and the chance of it returning, I'd agree that that is a sign of incompetence. As I said, I'd be very surprised if that was the case.
I don't know Koch's velocity at the end of his A's days. What I do know is this:

1.) Koch did not throw anywhere near as hard with the White Sox as he did with the A's and Jays.
2.) Williams signed Koch to a two-year deal within months of trading for him.
3.) Foulke was far and away the better pitcher in the deal.

I could forgive points 2 & 3 if Koch had his velocity. How could Williams and his scouts miss such an elementary thing? Did they scout the guy before trading for him?

faneidde
10-27-2004, 06:41 PM
The lack of any strong linkage between the facts you have and the conclusions you draw is the issue. That and the fact that what you call "facts" are often not true (i.e. KW has never had a steal, ignoring things like Colon, Marte, or "KW had no idea Everett had an option year").
Fact: The White Sox have had the highest payroll in the division every year that Kenny Williams has been GM. (I'm pretty sure, if I'm incorrect, someone will let me know.)
Fact: The White Sox have not won the division since KW has been GM
Fact: The farm system is in worse shape now than it was when KW took over.
Those are all pretty solid examples that the GM is doing a below average job.
Also, I didn't say KW didn't know about Everett's option, but that would be the only defense for that stupid trade. He was hitting .252 last year when the Sox traded for him. He had 8 walks, 19 strike outs, and 2 HR. KW traded an asset for a liability.

Finally, to all the people who say Uncle Jerry will hire someone from within on the cheap to save money, what exactly are you afraid of? I assure you there are plenty of people in baseball right now who'd love to be a GM and would jump at the chance even if offered only a modest salary. Also, how much worse than KW could he really be?

fquaye149
10-27-2004, 06:50 PM
Yup, I'm a troll. I am so against KW from the beginning that I waited until post #600 to show my true colors as a Cub fan who loves moneyball and has hated KW since he ran over my dog and stole my wife.
That's twice I've been accused of being a troll for saying something that some people disagree with. Next time someone posts we should sign Carlos Beltran, the dancing troll is coming out.
um, buddy, i wasn't talking about you. i was talking about o'neil. go back and read the posts and see how ridiculous it is that you even accused me of calling you a troll.

Lip Man 1
10-27-2004, 06:51 PM
I think a few years ago (2002?) the Sox didn't have the highest payroll. I think it was Cleveland.

But you need to define your terms...highest payroll at the start of the season or at the end of the season. That does change you know.

Lip

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 06:53 PM
Fact: The White Sox have had the highest payroll in the division every year that Kenny Williams has been GM. (I'm pretty sure, if I'm incorrect, someone will let me know.)Why don't you do your own homework, afraid that you might find the truth?
http://baseball-almanac.com/yearly/yr2004a.shtml

2001: Top payroll: Indians: $91,974,979, Sox: $62,363,000
2002: Top payroll: Indians: $78,909,448, Sox: $57,052,833
2003: Top Payroll: TWINS: $55,505,000, Sox: $51,010,000
2004: Top Payroll: Sox:$76,212,500 (That number seems way off.)

Do you get off on making **** up? :?:
Get a new hobby.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/positive11.jpg

faneidde
10-27-2004, 07:31 PM
um, buddy, i wasn't talking about you. i was talking about o'neil. go back and read the posts and see how ridiculous it is that you even accused me of calling you a troll.
I thought Jjav meant the first post in the thread, not the first overall post of a new guy. Sorry, but someone else earlier called me a troll. Again, my bad.

Lip, Ok, thanks for clearing that up, I didn't really know where to look. Santo, back at ya pal. I found a bunch of different sites with different numbers for payroll, but the consensus is generally not shared by your site:

2004 Payrolls (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1778397)
White Sox: 65 mil +
Twins: 53 mil +
Indians: 34 + mil

2003 Payrolls (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0721/1583823.html)
White Sox: 71 mil +
Twins: 65 mil +
Royals: 48 mil +

2002 Payrolls (http://espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2002/s/2002/1011/1444560.html)
Indians: 74 +
White Sox: 53 +
Twins: 41 +
My mistake, but ours is still higher than the Twins.

Anyway, I really liked how you left out the details of the 2004 statistic and even doubted it. There are all kinds of sites out there calculating payroll, and the consensus is that the Sox have had the highest payroll the last two years and were higher than the Twins in 2002. So, since his arrival, KW has spent more money and produced fewer results.

And, just for good measure, a link I found that said KW needed to go a long time ago from Baseball Prospectus. Link (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20020726daily.shtml)

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 07:41 PM
That 2003 figure is off because it includes the entire salaries of both Robbie and Carl. (We paid the minimum for them.) http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2003.shtml
Take off Carl's salary and add the league minimum, take half of Glover's, Schoeneweis', and Jimenez's salaries, and you're left with $51,465,000. STILL LOWER THAN THE TWINS.
So you were wrong about 2001, 2002, and 2003, but hey, being correct about one of the 4 years isn't that bad is it?

:dtroll:

Paulwny
10-27-2004, 07:44 PM
How many playoffs appearances or World Series would the Yankees have without Jeter, Williams, Posada, Pettitte, or Rivera?
Probably very few without these hired gun slingers, Cone, Clemens, Wells, Mussina, El Duque, etc also buying John Wetteland, the best reliever available at the time, while they waited for Rivera to develop.

faneidde
10-27-2004, 08:12 PM
That 2003 figure is off because it includes the entire salaries of both Robbie and Carl. (We paid the minimum for them.) http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2003.shtml
Take off Carl's salary and add the league minimum, take half of Glover's, Schoeneweis', and Jimenez's salaries, and you're left with $51,465,000. STILL LOWER THAN THE TWINS.
So you were wrong about 2001, 2002, and 2003, but hey, being correct about one of the 4 years isn't that bad is it?

:dtroll:

Yeah, I believe you over ESPN. Look Mr. Williams, I am sorry if I have offeneded you, admitedly I wouldn't like if you posted on a message board that I should be fired, but its just the way I feel. Even your arrogant ass has to admit you've made some bad moves. I just think that enough is enough and its time for a change. And finally, All Your Base Are Belong to Us.

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 08:45 PM
Yeah, I believe you over ESPN. Look Mr. Williams, I am sorry if I have offeneded you, admitedly I wouldn't like if you posted on a message board that I should be fired, but its just the way I feel. Even your arrogant ass has to admit you've made some bad moves. I just think that enough is enough and its time for a change. And finally, All Your Base Are Belong to Us.ROTFL!!

Click the link I posted above, and ask your mommy for some help with some simple addition and subtraction. You'll see that I'm right, and you're wrong.

faneidde
10-27-2004, 09:13 PM
Okay, fine, enough squabbling over payroll. I'll go with your fuzzy math and admit I made a mistake saying we had the highest payroll in 2002. 2003 I'd consider a wash and 2004 the Sox win. 1-1-1, not all that bad since I admited I was only pretty sure and somone would correct me. Anyway, how do you respond to the BP article which sums up brilliantly my entire argument.
Is there any general manager who has done less with more than Kenny Williams has done in the last 20 months? He inherited a division winner with a low payroll, a core of good young players and a farm system bursting at the seams with talent. Under his watch, the team has shed talent like my wife's cat Ashley sheds hair, while adding payroll and bad players like an Angelos on speed.
The author goes on to call Williams the worst GM in baseball. But you keep drinking your Kool-Aid and pointing out the few things KW hasn't scrwed up...yet.

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 09:52 PM
Is there any general manager who has done less with more than Kenny Williams has done in the last 20 months? He inherited a division winner with a low payroll, a core of good young players and a farm system bursting at the seams with talent. Under his watch, the team has shed talent like my wife's cat Ashley sheds hair, while adding payroll and bad players like an Angelos on speed.
The author goes on to call Williams the worst GM in baseball. But you keep drinking your Kool-Aid and pointing out the few things KW hasn't scrwed up...yet.Ah yes, one of my all-time favorite arguments. BP loves to ignore some pretty basic facts such as:

1) The entire pitching staff from that division winner (which by the way, was pretty much entirely an amazing first half followed by a mediocre to bad 2d half, lending credence to the "fluke" theory) was.....virtually dead the next year. Not to mention the loss of the team's best player in Thomas.

2) Farm system bursting with talent: That "talent" is based on the high rankings of guys like
- Joe Borchard (remember him?)
- Joe Crede (see above)
- Aaron Rowand (only this year did he do anything with his talent, i.e. after the article was written)
- Kip Wells (a good #3 or #4 starter, nothing more)
- Matt Ginter (is he still in baseball?)
- Jon Rauch (injured, and has done little to nothing since)
- Jason Stumm (IIRC, injured)

Not exactly a top flight core of young talent, would you say? Seems to me that your problem with the farm system lies in believing whatever BP writes even if their own facts don't support it more than in anything KW's done with the system.

3) Let's look at the guys who were traded:
- Royce Ring
- Anthony Webster
- Franklin Francisco
- Josh Rupe
- Josh Fogg
- Mike Sirotka
- Kip Wells
- Jon Rauch
- Gary Majewski
- Jeremy Reed
- Miguel Olivo

In the whole group, the only ones who are even serviceable major leaguers are Reed, Olivo, Wells & Francisco. And since we got Garcia for Reed & Olivo I wouldn't exactly call that a waste. Man, I wish I had Ring, Webster, Rauch, & Majewski back to form the core of our team!

BP basically cites the Wells-Fogg trade and uses that as their basis for saying he's "relentlessly traded young players for old". 1 trade - nice sample size guys. That and the dumping of Durham, while ignoring the fact that at the time, comp picks were being eliminated - reducing the value. Heck, in the section following your quote they mention all the things that went wrong

Has there been some bad fortune? Sure. Frank Thomas missed most of 2001, and his bat has missed most of 2002. The Sox bullpen has been beset by injuries--Bill Simas, Kelly Wunsch, Antonio Osuna--while the healthy pitchers have lost a considerable amount of effectiveness--Keith Foulke, Bobby Howry. Jerry Manuel hasn't handled the problems well, in particular losing faith in Foulke this season.
You think losing an MVP and most of a pitching staff might have something to do with it? Nah.

santo=dorf
10-27-2004, 09:57 PM
Okay, fine, enough squabbling over payroll. I'll go with your fuzzy math and admit I made a mistake saying we had the highest payroll in 2002. 2003 I'd consider a wash and 2004 the Sox win. 1-1-1, not all that bad since I admited I was only pretty sure and somone would correct me. Anyway, how do you respond to the BP article which sums up brilliantly my entire argument.
Is there any general manager who has done less with more than Kenny Williams has done in the last 20 months? He inherited a division winner with a low payroll, a core of good young players and a farm system bursting at the seams with talent. Under his watch, the team has shed talent like my wife's cat Ashley sheds hair, while adding payroll and bad players like an Angelos on speed.
The author goes on to call Williams the worst GM in baseball. But you keep drinking your Kool-Aid and pointing out the few things KW hasn't scrwed up...yet.BWAHAHAHA!!

You said that the Sox had the highest payroll in all four years during Kenny's tenure. I showed you that you were wrong on 3 of the 4 years.

That article you provided was written back in July of 2002. Are you trying to tell me that KW has done nothing noteworthy since that time? :rolleyes:
You are a complete fool. :dtroll:

faneidde
10-27-2004, 11:43 PM
Keith Foulke closes out the World Series for a Sox, too bad it wasn't ours. But hey we ended up getting Wilson Valdez outta all that. :angry:

jabrch
10-27-2004, 11:45 PM
:dtroll:
You just out trolling for an arguement?


Keith Foulke closes out the World Series for a Sox, too bad it wasn't ours. But hey we ended up getting Wilson Valdez outta all that. :angry:

TaylorStSox
10-28-2004, 05:20 AM
you can't win in a small market when you send your best hitting prospect you've had in 5 years along with a 5 tool catcher away for a pitcher that can't pitch in your home park.



I made this arguement when the trade happened and was completely blasted by the majority of posters here. Garcia has good stuff and is a solid number 2. With that said, he wasn't and isn't worth what we gave up. That fact rings true, 10 fold, when he has to pitch half his games in our park.

However, I still think KW is a good GM.

People say that him and JR ruined our franchise. What was there to ruin? KW's made some good/agressive moves. We have some good prospects.(Reed/Anderson/Sweeney/Fields appear to be good picks right now/we all know that our pitching prospects have suffered from the injury bug/Ring was drafted to gain leverage in a future trade to help the team immediately{which most draft picks will never do}) Also, we can't blame the fact that we miss out on a ton of free agents solely on JR. Let's be realistic. This isn't the most glamorous franchise to play for. We don't win. We play second fiddle to a joke of a team. We don't get any national media. If I wasn't born and raised a White Sox fan, I wouldn't give a crap about this team either. Why should some kid from the Dominican Republic or for that matter Bufu, Texas?

The culture and aura surrounding the franchise has to change. We need tenacity. We need to develop our own players who love the team for giving them a chance. We won't be able to buy players until there is a better environment. IMO, this is an issue that nobody really wants to address. It's alot easier to call Reinsdorf cheap scum. It's easier to say that KW is over his head in a position he was never qualified to win in the first place. Most people don't know that we haven't won anything in years because they don't even know we exist.

chisoxt
10-28-2004, 07:20 AM
We need to develop our own players who love the team for giving them a chance.
Isn't it difficult to do that when we keep impulsively trading them for 'has-beens'?

gosox41
10-28-2004, 09:20 AM
I think a few years ago (2002?) the Sox didn't have the highest payroll. I think it was Cleveland.

But you need to define your terms...highest payroll at the start of the season or at the end of the season. That does change you know.

Lip
It changes base on the team's performance. If a higher payroll team isn't getting it done it's not like they're blowing up a champion. The Indians weren't getting it done in 2002 and decided to trade Colon to Montreal. If they were in first place that would probably be different.


Bob

fquaye149
10-28-2004, 11:10 AM
Keith Foulke closes out the World Series for a Sox, too bad it wasn't ours. But hey we ended up getting Wilson Valdez outta all that. :angry:
wait one mother****ing minute. what do the a's have to show for that trade. yes they have the memory of yet another playoff series loss (which they may or not have gotten w/o foulke) but right now they don't have a single cottonpickin' player to show for it.

meanwhile not only do we have wilson valdez (which is ehhhh) but we also have neal cotts.

Not that we didn't get hosed on the deal overall but come on now. In the long run it seems to have helped our team a little more.

gosox41
10-28-2004, 01:11 PM
wait one mother****ing minute. what do the a's have to show for that trade. yes they have the memory of yet another playoff series loss (which they may or not have gotten w/o foulke) but right now they don't have a single cottonpickin' player to show for it.

meanwhile not only do we have wilson valdez (which is ehhhh) but we also have neal cotts.

Not that we didn't get hosed on the deal overall but come on now. In the long run it seems to have helped our team a little more.

Actually the A's got 2 draft picks for losing Foulke to free agency. And while they got a playoff loss what do the Sox have to show for acquiring Koch? Yet another second place finish.


Bob

oneil78
10-28-2004, 03:24 PM
it's about as optimistic as a :dtroll: can muster
You think Beltran is coming here! LOL!!

Go root for the Cubs or something, us SouthSiders have no time for your dreams.

Check out reality and get back to me. Start with this: where is this Beltran money going to come from?

Tragg
10-29-2004, 12:16 AM
Exactly! Can you imagine if we were as crappy as Oakland, Minnesota, the Cubs, the Mets, etc. were for 5+ year stretches of time before going on their runs? Can you imagine the noise coming from the bitchers? Look at Oakland before they went on their run. Look at Cleveland the past 3 years. Look at the Cubs futitility for decades before last season. Look at the Twins between their last WS and the past 3 years. I can only imagine it...

That's exactly the problem. We can't rebuild cuz our fans don't have the stomach for it. (what would attendance be like if we had a 60 win season or two?) We can't retool cuz our ownership doesn't have the money for it. And we have yet to hit a jackpot few drafts with 3-4 players each making the bigs including multiple allstars - cuz the odds are better to hit a royal flush than to have that happen.
But we can retool - it will simply take some deft moves; we have more money than Minny so using that model is unnecessary.

Kenny has the right idea- use the prospects (trade them or play them) and don't let them rot. He just, to me, sets his eyes on a player he's got to have, tells the world about it, and then overpays as a result. Just like that moron Ditka with the Saints.