PDA

View Full Version : Foulke - "The White Sox Gave Up On Me"


Uncle_Patrick
10-26-2004, 09:12 AM
It was only a matter of time before this story was written.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca261.htm

FightingBillini
10-26-2004, 09:37 AM
It just makes you sick to read that. He wanted to be with the White Sox his whole career. If anyone sees Ken Williams today, kick him in the nads for me.

gosox41
10-26-2004, 09:41 AM
It was only a matter of time before this story was written.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca261.htm
Yep. Sounds like KW is all bitter with that comment. Why is Foulke talking about the White Sox? Maybe because a Chicago reporter was asking him questions for a local angle. And unlike certain players, Foulke has enough class not to burn bridges or hold a grudge by saying he still keeps up with the White Sox.


This article summed up the main point: It was a terrible move for the Sox from day 1.


Bob

doublem23
10-26-2004, 09:43 AM
It just makes you sick to read that. He wanted to be with the White Sox his whole career. If anyone sees Ken Williams today, kick him in the nads for me.
JM deserves that kick in the balls.

Uncle_Patrick
10-26-2004, 10:33 AM
Yep. Sounds like KW is all bitter with that comment.

Bob
That's the same impression I got. Seems like KW's got a lot of bitterness these days.

Baby Fisk
10-26-2004, 10:39 AM
That's the same impression I got. Seems like KW's got a lot of bitterness these days.You can double that bitterness based on the fact that the closer that KW refused to "give up" on -- one William Koch, esquire -- kept proving him a stubborn fool.

DrCrawdad
10-26-2004, 11:01 AM
The one that surprised me is Embree. When Embree was with the White Sox he was terrible. IIRC Embree just got lit up all the time in 2001. Then 2002 Embree goes to Boston and just turns things around and had a very good season. 2003, 2004 Embree's hasn't been quite as good, but not terrible.

DrCrawdad
10-26-2004, 11:05 AM
I do like oftentimes when KW speaks his mind. But in this case, wouldn't it have been better to take the high road? Just congratulate Foulke and wish him well, don't even bother to address his comments about the Sox giving up on him.

Rocky Soprano
10-26-2004, 11:10 AM
Or even better, why not say we messed up and we love to go back in time. :D:

kittle42
10-26-2004, 11:13 AM
The one that surprised me is Embree. When Embree was with the White Sox he was terrible. IIRC Embree just got lit up all the time in 2001. Then 2002 Embree goes to Boston and just turns things around and had a very good season. 2003, 2004 Embree's hasn't been quite as good, but not terrible.
Alan Embree could win 7 straight Cy Youngs and I would not regret the day the Sox got rid of him.

Nick@Nite
10-26-2004, 11:24 AM
It was only a matter of time before this story was written.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca261.htmI have a sneaky suspicion one of the FOX broadcasters will make note of it before the WS is over.

It definitely is McCarver's style... "Foulke has wore two types of socks in his career. The White Sox gave up one him and traded to the A's. You could bet that his Red Sox are thankful they had a chance to acquire him from Billy Beane". :mad:

DMarte708
10-26-2004, 11:25 AM
That's the same impression I got. Seems like KW's got a lot of bitterness these days.Every postseason save Foulke earns is yet another indictment on the worst trade (hopefully...) of his career. It probably sickens him to even reflect back on the deal; reading Foulke badmouthing our organization is another punch to the gut.

DrCrawdad
10-26-2004, 11:26 AM
Alan Embree could win 7 straight Cy Youngs and I would not regret the day the Sox got rid of him.

I agree. The Sox brought in two lefty relievers that season. They both were terrible. I'm just surprised to see how Embree has turned things around. Good for him.

DrCrawdad
10-26-2004, 11:27 AM
Or even better, why not say we messed up and we love to go back in time. :D:

I believe that if KW said that it would be tampering.

DMarte708
10-26-2004, 11:28 AM
I have a sneaky suspicion one of the FOX broadcasters will make note of it before the WS is over.

It definitely is McCarver's style... "Foulke has wore two types of socks in his career. The White Sox gave up one him and traded to the A's. You could bet that his Red Sox are thankful they had a chance to acquire him from Billy Beane". :mad:
Great impression. I'd put a wager the reference to organizational troubles will include a phrase such as: "his former White Sox were dirty, and needed to be replaced with a clean pair of Red Sox.."

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 11:33 AM
Man, between the media and the fan interpretation, there's nothing even resembling slack, is there? KW says nothing about Foulke except that he wishes him the best, and is rooting for him. The other comment is just "why is he talking about us?".

No sniping, no denigrating Keith, nothing.

Nick@Nite
10-26-2004, 11:34 AM
Great impression. I'd put a wager the reference to organizational troubles will include a phrase such as: "his former White Sox were dirty, and needed to be replaced with a clean pair of Red Sox.."Exactly. McCarver has a way of saying things that on the surface seem witty, but end up as weak as one of his throws to second base.

Rocky Soprano
10-26-2004, 11:38 AM
I believe that if KW said that it would be tampering.
Wow, I didnt know the rules were that strict.

Hangar18
10-26-2004, 11:50 AM
One would think that by now, Uncle Jerry wouldve learned that every money Related trade hes ordered.......Has BURNED US EVERY TIME. :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Soxzilla
10-26-2004, 12:02 PM
Fock Foulke. I'd rather have Shingo.

Bobby Thigpen
10-26-2004, 12:05 PM
Yeah, but Foulke will never be a good pressure pitcher. Remember he blew those playoff games, and a couple against Minnesota. It was good for the Sox to get rid of him. He'll never be able to pitch well in a pressure situation, and no one will ever win anything with him as his closer.

Rocky Soprano
10-26-2004, 12:10 PM
Fock Foulke. I'd rather have Shingo.Thats like taking a Dodge Neon over a Viper.

Whats wrong with you? :redneck

fquaye149
10-26-2004, 12:16 PM
if only there were a tag that said: "this thread topic has been beaten into the ground and no one is as right as he or she thinks he or she is"


but alas, no such tag exists

kittle42
10-26-2004, 12:18 PM
if only there were a tag that said: "this thread topic has been beaten into the ground and no one is as right as he or she thinks he or she is"


but alas, no such tag exists
That tag would be used on every thread.

balke
10-26-2004, 12:22 PM
Thats like taking a Dodge Neon over a Viper.

Whats wrong with you? :redneck
This is true. I've seen this debate a lot lately on the boards, and people argue that Foulke was bad then. I remember Hawk always being all about Foulke. He was constantly bragging about how this guy closed games. I believe he even got good ESPN coverage back then. I liked Foulke a lot when he was with our team. I stopped watching baseball altogether when we still had him. Probably in his last season.

Looking back at it, it seems like Kenny gambled on a trend. All teams seem to want that lights out 99 MPH pitcher to close the game with 9 pitches. Foulke never had that kind of power, and a lot of people doubted his ability to get the big out with breaking balls. I'm guessing Kenny was one of those doubters.

Looking back, Koch wasn't such a bad gamble. But it was a gamble, over a what turned out to be a sure thing. This is the worst trade I've seen Kenny make, but w/ the money involved... I wonder how much of that was JR. I think pretty much all other kenny bashing threads are stupid, but I do see losing Foulke as a mistake. He was young, and pretty dominant. He wasn't going to blow his arm out throwing fastballs. oh well, there's no time machines in baseball.

CubKilla
10-26-2004, 12:23 PM
KW's response in the article to Keith Foulke's feelings is a microcosm of the man GM'ing the White Sox. KW is willing to let personal feelings come before what's good for the team. KW is a petty, buffet table flipping dolt and he, along with JR, should be reminded of the Foulke/Botch trade everyday by reporters and Sox fans otherwise the same BS will keep happening again and again in the name of "saving money."

Hangar18
10-26-2004, 12:31 PM
Kenny Williams does seem BITTER in that article. Why wouldnt he?
Billy Beane once again, pulled the Wool over his Eyes and gave him the
proverbial swift-kick-in-the-pants, with that "trade". Can you imagine
if Foulkie was saving 43 games for the WHITE SOX in 2003? *sighs*
Maybe that team goes to the World Series? Maybe Uncle Jerry wakes
up and Sees the Light and Further Strengthens that team and 2004 is
entirely different ......... and we make the playoffs again, and were
talking about Tonites White Sox lineup vs the Cardinals and maybe ......
(voice trails off)

Rocky Soprano
10-26-2004, 12:31 PM
Foulke was one and will always be one of my personal favorite players. I loved how that guy pitched. I also loved how cool he was with the fans. I remember a game where he came up to sign some autographs, he came up to my brother and I to sign our baseballs. At the time my brother liked the Indians a bit and was actually wearing an Indian hat. Keith asked him what the hell is wrong with you? If you are an Indian fan what do you want my autograph for? And he refused to sign his baseball until he took the hat off. To me that was cool as hell.

Whoever says Keith is not dominant is not watching the playoffs. Mr. Rivera is gone and Keith is not. Simple as that...

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 12:31 PM
KW's response in the article to Keith Foulke's feelings is a microcosm of the man GM'ing the White Sox. KW is willing to let personal feelings come before what's good for the team. KW is a petty, buffet table flipping dolt and he, along with JR, should be reminded of the Foulke/Botch trade everyday by reporters and Sox fans otherwise the same BS will keep happening again and again in the name of "saving money."
Huh? He didn't badmouth Keith, talk about his struggles or desire to be a starter, nothing. He just questioned why the guy is talking about the Sox 2 years after the fact when he's in the WS. How that's "petty" is beyond me.

Hangar18
10-26-2004, 12:35 PM
.................and he, along with JR, should be reminded of the Foulke/Botch trade everyday by reporters and Sox fans otherwise the same BS will keep happening again and again in the name of "saving money."
YES, one would think the Media would be doing just that, but theyre LAZY and YELLOW and instead, want to write What-if-the-cubs-made-it Articles and spending the offseason trying to win players over for the cubs, and what little punk Darren wants to do for the lineups next year.
I hate the Chicago Media

Hangar18
10-26-2004, 12:40 PM
Huh? He didn't badmouth Keith, talk about his struggles or desire to be a starter, nothing. He just questioned why the guy is talking about the Sox 2 years after the fact when he's in the WS. How that's "petty" is beyond me.

You could tell by the tone " I cant understand why a guy in the World Series is talking about the White Sox" said White Sox GM Kenny Williams, wiping the Pie off his face.

Memo to KW: He wanted to stay with the White SOX and felt you guys
betrayed him and gave up on him. Thats why hes saying that

CubKilla
10-26-2004, 12:53 PM
You could tell by the tone " I cant understand why a guy in the World Series is talking about the White Sox" said White Sox GM Kenny Williams, wiping the Pie off his face.

Memo to KW: He wanted to stay with the White SOX and felt you guys
betrayed him and gave up on him. Thats why hes saying that
Agreed. If you can't tell by KW's quote that he is a petty, arrogant man that doesn't like to be reminded of his mistakes.....

SOXSINCE'70
10-26-2004, 12:58 PM
Agreed. If you can't tell by KW's quote that he is a petty, arrogant man that doesn't like to be reminded of his mistakes.....

:reinsy

"In other words,he's perfect for this team".:D: :D:

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 12:58 PM
Agreed. If you can't tell by KW's quote that he is a petty, arrogant man that doesn't like to be reminded of his mistakes.....
Or he's just not that fond of being interviewed spcifically to get his reaction to a deal that obviously was bad. What you call pettiness I simply call annoyance, more at the reporter than at Foulke.

CubKilla
10-26-2004, 01:02 PM
Or he's just not that fond of being interviewed spcifically to get his reaction to a deal that obviously was bad. What you call pettiness I simply call annoyance, more at the reporter than at Foulke.Well, KW will be the first to remind you of all of his good trades. Anyone remember the constant Marte trade references in an article a year or so ago that questioned his ineptitude, up to that point, as GM of the White Sox? KW can't have it both ways.

But I will agree with your assessment that it may have been more annoyance than anything. I never thought of it that way.

Brian26
10-26-2004, 01:04 PM
Looking back, Foulke's numbers really weren't very bad with us, even when he struggled in 2001 and 2002. The problem was that people had a bad perception of him because he seemed to melt down in big games against the Yankees and the Twins. He had at least two major meltdowns in Minnesota that I can remember off the top of my head (Denny Hocking, anyone?).

KW should feel bad, because in hindsight it turned out to be a terrible trade for us. Still, I don't think KW was the only person who had given up on Foulke. I remember the day the trade was made, and this board was 50/50 at best on the trade, and I'll even say a majority of the folks here liked the trade.

Hangar18
10-26-2004, 01:11 PM
[QUOTE=Brian26] I remember the day the trade was made, and this board was 50/50 at best on the trade........QUOTE]

I remember wondering what the POINT of the trade was? Closer wasnt a Priority on our list, yet somehow, we were making this "trade" instead of
getting a #1 STARTER. of course, later on, we figured out why
the trade was made after all ...........$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

pinwheels3530
10-26-2004, 01:18 PM
Looking back, Foulke's numbers really weren't very bad with us, even when he struggled in 2001 and 2002. The problem was that people had a bad perception of him because he seemed to melt down in big games against the Yankees and the Twins. He had at least two major meltdowns in Minnesota that I can remember off the top of my head (Denny Hocking, anyone?).

KW should feel bad, because in hindsight it turned out to be a terrible trade for us. Still, I don't think KW was the only person who had given up on Foulke. I remember the day the trade was made, and this board was 50/50 at best on the trade, and I'll even say a majority of the folks here liked the trade.

Your right at Sox fest that year Billy Koch was of the most popular players that attended, it did seem like the majority of the fans were behind the trade at the time.

I remember when I first heard they trade announced over the radio, I had a weird sad feeling. I realized it was because the Sox traded a pitcher who really wanted to be a White Sox, he had Sox PRIDE. Foulke really did embrace the south side fans ......Oh well I guess I'll stop crying now!!!

Another thing I agree with Hangar I thought it was a money move to save some dollars, we got burned...........:whiner:

duke of dorwood
10-26-2004, 01:54 PM
If only he'd give up on Willie harris too

JB98
10-26-2004, 02:00 PM
KW wants to know why Foulke would be commenting about the White Sox while the Red Sox are in the World Series. Well, I'd wager that Foulke commented only because a reporter came to him and asked a question. It seems that Keith answered the question truthfully and honestly. I don't know how or why anyone would have a problem with that. In fact, I agree with Foulke 100 percent. The Sox did give up on him, but of course, it is water under the bridge at this point. I hate the Red Sox, but I wish Keith the best. He was a tremendous relief pitcher when he was here.You know, it's interesting how KW always gets all pissed off whenever a Sox player or a former Sox player answers a question from a member of the media honestly. He very much has an us vs. them attitude. Despite that attitude, he hired Ozzie to manage this team. If there's anyone who gives the press too damn much information, it would have to be Ozzie.

Nick@Nite
10-26-2004, 03:10 PM
Fock Foulke. I'd rather have Shingo.Thats like taking a Dodge Neon over a Viper.

Whats wrong with you? :redneckDon't you mean a Honda Civic over a Dodge Viper? :)

MRKARNO
10-26-2004, 04:29 PM
Thats like taking a Dodge Neon over a Viper.

Whats wrong with you? :redneck

Shingo is a lot more fun than Keith Foulke (I dont remember any Foulke Time or Foulkomania and Shingo's 2004 was as good as Foulke's.)

Over the long haul, Foulke is almost certainly at this point the better option due to the fact that he's a little younger and a lot more proven than Shingo is, in 2004, you could have gone either way.

balke
10-26-2004, 04:38 PM
Don't you mean a Honda Civic over a Dodge Viper? :)
if that's the deal, then I'll take the civic

daveeym
10-26-2004, 05:18 PM
At the start I was all ready to bash KW for sounding petty and bitter. Was gonna say he needs to take the begginner's course in Hangar's Guide to the Chicago Media lecture series and then a good comment was made by one person here. I still think Kenny probably dropped the chalupa here but I'm gonna cut him some slack since I'm willing to bet whoever asked him about foulke basically said Foulke was bad mouthing KW and the Sox when he really wasn't. It was more a statement of facts and that Foulke is happy to be where he is now. Farking chicago media and fark all of us for falling for it.

Mohoney
10-26-2004, 05:20 PM
I remember the day the trade was made, and this board was 50/50 at best on the trade, and I'll even say a majority of the folks here liked the trade.I was one of the people who liked this trade. I thought that a closer who lived and died on 100 mph gas was better than a closer that lived and died by his changeup. I also loved getting Mark Johnson out from behind the plate.

I have been proven wrong by both Foulke and Shingo. Offspeed closers can thrive, if they have command. Guys with pure gas can fail if they don't have command.

That being said, I hope all three of these guys find success. I harbor no ill will to Koch or Foulke, and I hope Shingo can keep doing what he did last year.

TornLabrum
10-26-2004, 07:09 PM
Shingo is a lot more fun than Keith Foulke (I dont remember any Foulke Time or Foulkomania and Shingo's 2004 was as good as Foulke's.)

That could be a tribute to Brooks Boyer and an indictment of Rob Gallas.

RKMeibalane
10-26-2004, 08:08 PM
JM deserves that kick in the balls.
Agreed. It was Manuel who demoted Foulke out of the closer's role. I will be honest and say that I'm not exactly Foulke's biggest fan, but he is a good closer, and would definitely have made a difference both this season and in 2003. The Sox would have saved themselves a lot of trouble had they never made the Foulke-Koch deal.

faneidde
10-26-2004, 10:30 PM
I was always a big Foulke fan and in general a fan of loyalty to players. Foulke had been a very good/great closer for the Sox for a few years. He struggled a bit one year and JM benches him. I believe that if a guy has been a solid producer for a team for a period of time, he shouldn't be jetisoned for one off year, let alone a bad month like Foulke was. Then, KW trades him for Krotch and the rest is history. To me, KW's comments were his usual asshat remarks. Why did he have to swipe at Keith? Because Keith wanted to be with the Sox? Yeah, you tell him that his desire to play for the Sox is unwelcome KW. Hey, at least when he's talking to the press he isn't trading for Alomar and Everett again. I was once a believer, but I am not firmly on the KW is a moron bandwagon. Overall, the article made me want to:
:chunks

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 11:05 PM
Why did he have to swipe at Keith?

Ummmm.......so saying "Why is he talking about the Sox?" and "I'm rooting for Keith" is a swipe? You sure have an odd definition of that.

fquaye149
10-26-2004, 11:47 PM
good F'n GOD. we know where you kenny haters stand. can you quit beating us over the heads with it.

i'm no fokw but holy cow. if kenny williams flapped his wings in bridgeport you'd blame him for monsoons in taiwan.


LET IT REST. what are you accomplishing by pissing and moaning about every little thing kenny does and rehashing his past mistakes? just diluting your relevance when he makes a questionable move

(see the fobb's bitching about reed/olivo and what's his name for freddy...maybe we could take the complaining seriously if we didn't already know that you probably would have called kw an idiot if he would have traded rafael santana and jose paniagua for freddy)

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 12:32 AM
he would have traded rafael santana and jose paniagua for freddy)
The fact is, that the MARINERS were the ones who wouldn't do that deal, I saw that on some M's message board, and confirmed it with my buddy, who heard that through one of the Sox employee's dog. Just another example of KW's incompetence!!!

jordan23ventura
10-27-2004, 01:38 AM
KW's response in the article to Keith Foulke's feelings is a microcosm of the man GM'ing the White Sox. KW is willing to let personal feelings come before what's good for the team. KW is a petty, buffet table flipping dolt and he, along with JR, should be reminded of the Foulke/Botch trade everyday by reporters and Sox fans otherwise the same BS will keep happening again and again in the name of "saving money."
Blah blah blah blah blah.

Did you ever think for a second that perhaps the reporter wanted KW to come off like that? Or that perhaps he baited KW to say something like that by making Foulke's comments out to be something they weren't?

Just go ahead and rip on the guy. This is probably exactly the reaction that the reporter wanted out of (White) Sox fans.

Congrats, you fell for it.

CubKilla
10-27-2004, 02:33 AM
Congrats, you fell for it.
Might have. But KW is still an a$$hole way over his head..... Foulke for Botch trade or not.

Hangar18
10-27-2004, 11:13 AM
Did you ever think for a second that perhaps the reporter wanted KW to come off like that?
Congrats, you fell for it.
Good point, but I think SOMEONE in the media has to start finally BASHING
the SOX for this "trade". But I like cubkillas point too ...... sure KW has made some bad bad bad moves (even being the subject for foolishness in Billy Beanes book) but I think overall, if Uncle Jerry didnt self-impose some of these Payroll Constraints, we wouldnt be talking about this. Bottom Line, anytime you make a "Trade" based on Money, nothing good is going to come of it.

SO..........in order to save some money in the future, the Baseball Gods struck back with a Vengeance, and we Missed the playoffs 2 yrs in a row since then because of a weak bullpen.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh the Irony.....How do you like that now Mr Reinsdorf?

:reinsy
" Irony Schmi-rony, Look at the MONEY WE SAVED by avoiding Arbitration! "

TaylorStSox
10-28-2004, 05:36 AM
Alan Embree could win 7 straight Cy Youngs and I would not regret the day the Sox got rid of him.
Embree is the true meaning of why velocity is overated. A lefty that throws in the high 90's and gets hit hard by virtually everybody. The Red Sox have done a good job of hiding him and using him in situations.