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Jjav829
10-24-2004, 08:48 AM
According to Joe Cowley (take it for what it's worth) in his review of the Sox pitchers today, Kenny Williams plans to pursue Randy Johnson again in the offseason. What's more surprising is that according to Cowley, RJ had the Sox on his original list of teams that he would accept a trade to. Cowley also states that sources indicated KW made at least four calls to the D'backs during the year, trying to make the trade happen. He says that if that fails, KW would like to acquire Pavano, but may have to turn to an Eric Milton or Russ Ortiz. I really don't care to see either Ortiz or Milton here. FWIW, Bruce Levine said yesterday that he knows KW is going to go after another #1 starter this offseason.

Here's the link to the story (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/241sd7.htm).

Here's the question I'll pose. Assuming this interest is legit, would you consider the offseason successful if the Sox traded Lee for the RP that KW wants (one that can close or set up), signed Vizquel to play short, and brought in the Big Unit? I would love to see the Big Unit here for one year. The pitching staff would look really good in that scenario, though the offense would take a hit. I don't know that the D'backs would want Lee as they'll have Luiz Gonzalez back next year, though he is coming off major surgery at the age of 37. Perhaps they'd be interested in taking Paul Konerko in they can't re-sign Sexson. This offseason will be very interesting in we end up following this story for a while.

Dice
10-24-2004, 09:21 AM
Why would they trade Lee if Ordonez is not coming back? If Ordonez is not back then keeping Lee is a must. But I would love to see the big unit in a White Sox uniform.

TornLabrum
10-24-2004, 09:33 AM
Why would they trade Lee if Ordonez is not coming back? If Ordonez is not back then keeping Lee is a must. But I would love to see the big unit in a White Sox uniform.
I agree. You also have to consider Johnson's age if that's the trade that goes through. Once ball players get around that 40-year-old mark, the inevitable collapse can happen at any time.

jortafan
10-24-2004, 09:44 AM
I agree. You also have to consider Johnson's age if that's the trade that goes through. Once ball players get around that 40-year-old mark, the inevitable collapse can happen at any time.
That's a very good point. I could easily see Randy Johnson as the next Steve Carlton or Sparky Lyle -- a once-great pitcher who managed to get in a few final games in the major leagues with the White Sox.

Then again, knowing the Sox luck, we probably will get RJ once he's washed up.

Win1ForMe
10-24-2004, 09:53 AM
If you're going to trade one of them, you have to trade Konerko. Carlos plays just as well on the road as he does at USCF. Konerko's big season can be attributed partly to his home park (1.079 OPS at home vs .708 on the road).

By the way, here's what the line-up would look like with Vizquel and Carlos (instead of Konerko):

SS- Vizquel
CF- Rowand
DH- Thomas
LF- Lee
RF- Everett
2B- Uribe
1B- Gload
3B- Crede
C- Davis/Burke

Looks pretty weak after Carlos, and frightening if Thomas has any setbacks with his ankle/foot. And if they do trade Carlos, they would need to find someone to replace him (I guess they could go after Jose Guillen). Gload can step in for Konerko.

MRKARNO
10-24-2004, 10:04 AM
I agree. You also have to consider Johnson's age if that's the trade that goes through. Once ball players get around that 40-year-old mark, the inevitable collapse can happen at any time.

I know what you're saying, but the possiblity of his be able to continue for another 4-5 years might be as good as the possibility of him breaking down next year. Did you see how amazing he was last year? It was ridiculous how good he was. Besides, it would be a great PR move for the White Sox. I would recommend trading Konerko (with someone else if we had to) for the Big Unit. That way, Arizona would not have to resign Sexson, something they don't want to do. Both players' contracts expire at the end of next year. In this way, the DBacks could kill two birds with one stone: Getting a firstbasemen and shedding RJ's contract. I am absolutely in favor of any effort to trade Konerko for the Big Unit (without giving up McCarthy, Anderson or Sweeney).

soxfan26
10-24-2004, 10:17 AM
Here's the question I'll pose. Assuming this interest is legit, would you consider the offseason successful if the Sox traded Lee for the RP that KW wants (one that can close or set up), signed Vizquel to play short, and brought in the Big Unit? I would love to see the Big Unit here for one year. The pitching staff would look really good in that scenario, though the offense would take a hit. I don't know that the D'backs would want Lee as they'll have Luiz Gonzalez back next year, though he is coming off major surgery at the age of 37. Perhaps they'd be interested in taking Paul Konerko in they can't re-sign Sexson. This offseason will be very interesting in we end up following this story for a while.
The Unit's age is a risk. But I couldn't resist a scenario like MRKARNO proposed. Konerko for RJ alone would make my offseason. Of course it won't cure all that ails the Sox, but just think of the added leverage in FA negotiations that follow this trade. Hopefully it will create the possibility of adding Visquel and the bullpen help via the FA market.

Jjav829
10-24-2004, 10:19 AM
I know what you're saying, but the possiblity of his be able to continue for another 4-5 years might be as good as the possibility of him breaking down next year. Did you see how amazing he was last year? It was ridiculous how good he was. Besides, it would be a great PR move for the White Sox. I would recommend trading Konerko (with someone else if we had to) for the Big Unit. That way, Arizona would not have to resign Sexson, something they don't want to do. Both players' contracts expire at the end of next year. In this way, the DBacks could kill two birds with one stone: Getting a firstbasemen and shedding RJ's contract. I am absolutely in favor of any effort to trade Konerko for the Big Unit (without giving up McCarthy, Anderson or Sweeney).
Well whether they sign Sexson or not may decide whether they trade RJ or not. Supposedly, if they sign Sexson they will keep RJ to start the season. If they don't sign Sexson, they'll look to trade RJ. Why they are thinking like this, I don't know. Sexson or no Sexson, they're not going to do anything next year. They would be better off going into rebuilding mode now, which would mean trading RJ.

CubKilla
10-24-2004, 10:54 AM
I'll go on record right now and say that neither Randy Johnson nor Carl Pavano will be a part of the White Sox's 2005 campaign.

A Russ Ortiz or Eric Milton is more realistic..... especially Ortiz..... who KW has had his eye on for awhile now.

mdep524
10-24-2004, 11:42 AM
The prospect of Randy Johnson does excite me, I have to admit. Man, what a coup that would be.


However this Russ Ortiz stuff is really getting irritating. I have this awful feeling in the back of my stomach that at the end of this offseason- an offseason full of many opportunities- all we are going to go into ST next year with Cristian Guzman and Russ Ortiz and I am going to :whiner::cuss:

Brian26
10-24-2004, 11:54 AM
A Russ Ortiz or Eric Milton is more realistic..... especially Ortiz..... who KW has had his eye on for awhile now.
Kenny also has the habit of putting his eye on a player he wants and pursuing that player for a long time...sometimes even more than a year. KW wanted Contreras last year, and it almost happened again in May before finally happening at the deadline. KW wanted Erstad 3 years ago, and there was talk about getting him again last winter. I anticipate, of all the pitchers listed, Russ Ortiz ends up with the Sox. KW wanted Ortiz back in June when there was talk of the Jones/Ortiz for Mags deal.

cbrownson13
10-24-2004, 12:21 PM
For those of you with ESPN Insider....
http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/rumorcentral?sport=mlb

For those of you without....
It talks about about pitching is the #1 priority for the Sox this offseason. And, according to the Daily Southtown, the Big Unit tops the Sox wishlist. Once the hot stove season begins, KW will talk to Arizona about aquiring Randy.

He has one year left worth 16.5 million and can veto any trade. It says if they don't get RJ, they will turn their attention to free agents such as, Pedro, Pavano, Odalis Perez, Eric Milton, Wilson Alverez, Russ Ortiz, and Derek Lowe.

If Randy wouldn't approve of a trade last year to anywhere but the west coast. Why would this year be different. Also, with 16.5 million owed to him for this year, couldn't we sign a few players for that much that would help our team. He had a fantastic year last year, but I would be worried about his age/injuries.

cbrownson13
10-24-2004, 12:31 PM
Well, I guess somehow I missed that other thread, sorry.

Mohoney
10-24-2004, 12:46 PM
However this Russ Ortiz stuff is really getting irritating.
Russ Ortiz has at least accomplished something at the major league level. He would immediately leapfrog Contreras and Garland.

Plus, he won't cost $16 million. We would still have some cash left to bolster the bullpen.

Plus, we only have to give up cash to get him. We don't have to give up a big bat or any farm depth.

If we're going to trade somebody, trade underachievers like Garland or Crede. Trading Lee or Konerko for pitching is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Lip Man 1
10-24-2004, 12:59 PM
Randy Johnson is an incredible pitcher, a certain Hall Of Famer and a guy who would bring much needed media attention to the Sox...but he's 41, and is playing on a knee so bad that he had to adjust his motion to accomodate not putting undue stress on it last season coming back from surgery.

If the Sox had a 90 million dollar payroll where they had a fall back plan if he were to get hurt again, I'd say 'go for it...' But the Sox don't, so regretably I must say that I'd be against this.

Go out and get two solid starters for the 18 million it will cost you for Johnson. I've always felt the reality is you need six decent guys to get you through a 162 game season replete with injuries, slumps and double headers.

Lip

nitetrain8601
10-24-2004, 01:02 PM
Randy Johnson is an incredible pitcher, a certain Hall Of Famer and a guy who would bring much needed media attention to the Sox...but he's 41, and is playing on a knee so bad that he had to adjust his motion to accomodate not putting undue stress on it last season coming back from surgery.

If the Sox had a 90 million dollar payroll where they had a fall back plan if he were to get hurt again, I'd say 'go for it...' But the Sox don't, so regretably I must say that I'd be against this.

Go out and get two solid starters for the 18 million it will cost you for Johnson. I've always felt the reality is you need six decent guys to get you through a 162 game season replete with injuries, slumps and double headers.

Lip
Maybe they will reach 90 mil and maybe those rumors about the team opening the pockets this year are true. I mean, maybe I'm dreaming, but for the right player I think the Sox would be willing to pay them.

Whitesox029
10-24-2004, 01:05 PM
According to Joe Cowley (take it for what it's worth) in his review of the Sox pitchers today, Kenny Williams plans to pursue Randy Johnson again in the offseason. What's more surprising is that according to Cowley, RJ had the Sox on his original list of teams that he would accept a trade to. Cowley also states that sources indicated KW made at least four calls to the D'backs during the year, trying to make the trade happen. He says that if that fails, KW would like to acquire Pavano, but may have to turn to an Eric Milton or Russ Ortiz. I really don't care to see either Ortiz or Milton here. FWIW, Bruce Levine said yesterday that he knows KW is going to go after another #1 starter this offseason.

Here's the link to the story (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/241sd7.htm).

Here's the question I'll pose. Assuming this interest is legit, would you consider the offseason successful if the Sox traded Lee for the RP that KW wants (one that can close or set up), signed Vizquel to play short, and brought in the Big Unit? I would love to see the Big Unit here for one year. The pitching staff would look really good in that scenario, though the offense would take a hit. I don't know that the D'backs would want Lee as they'll have Luiz Gonzalez back next year, though he is coming off major surgery at the age of 37. Perhaps they'd be interested in taking Paul Konerko in they can't re-sign Sexson. This offseason will be very interesting in we end up following this story for a while.I would definitely consider that a success, but without trading Lee. Before we offer up sucha key player I would be more inclined to start in the range of Borchard+Crede+prospect(s) for a good reliever, potentially signing Joe Randa too. In fact I might consider this best-case scenario. I really have no use for either Borchard or Crede and I don't see why Timo Perez can't start in right field. It's a shame Ross Gload is a defensive liability in the outfield because he can't start, but it's nice to have someone off the bench who can get the job done (can he play 3rd??). Anyway I think Timo has the opportunity to become a pretty decent player if given the chance to play every day. If that doesn't work out, with Vizquel at SS, Uribe could play 2nd and Harris can play right:
Harris-RF
Uribe-2B
Thomas-DH
Lee-LF
Konerko-1B
Rowand-CF
Vizquel-SS
Randa-3B
Burke/Davis-C

I don't see the problem with having a .230 hitter in the number nine spot, catching.

nitetrain8601
10-24-2004, 01:07 PM
I don't like the idea of Rowand in the 6 or 7 slot.

California Sox
10-24-2004, 01:33 PM
Harris in right field? Ugh. I like the fact the Sox are considering pitching. I, personally, have always loved Milton. I think Ortiz is a serious upgrade over Jason Grilli, so maybe we shouldn't be so quick to turn our noses up at him. But the willingness to go from a team that has too much reliance on RH power to a team that can't hit at all is disturbing. Willie Harris can't hit enough to be a second baseman, how the heck is going to hold down rightfield? Playing at the Cell, almost any pitcher's gonna have a ERA around 4. We still need to be able to score some runs.

cornball
10-24-2004, 02:03 PM
Seems like the trade for RJ have to involve PK as the main part for the Sox IMHO. I say that because PK is a local from the Mesa? area, popular there, has a 1 year deal as does RJ and is the most natural fit when Sexton leaves.

Not sure if it will happen, but my guess PK would be the guy moved if it does.

nitetrain8601
10-24-2004, 02:05 PM
I think that would be the basis too of the deal. PK for RJ sounds logical along with some prospects of course.

santo=dorf
10-24-2004, 02:25 PM
Seems like the trade for RJ have to involve PK as the main part for the Sox IMHO. I say that because PK is a local from the Mesa? area, popular there, has a 1 year deal as does RJ and is the most natural fit when Sexton leaves.

Not sure if it will happen, but my guess PK would be the guy moved if it does.
That's the first thing I thought of too.

Konerko+3 prospects for RJ and a some $.

:bandance:

sircaffey1
10-24-2004, 02:43 PM
Randy as a Sox...talk about a winner...

I don't think that anyone here could argue that he wouldnt bring in more fans, even at a national level...Adding him to the rotation makes everyone else in the rotation better by moving them down a slot...Our rotation would immediately become one of the top rotations in the majors. Right? And in the playoffs(if we get there), we finally have a horse of our own. If management is serious about winning next year then why wouldnt they get Randy?

Unit
Buehrle
Garcia
Contreras
Garland

You serious?

As far as the cash goes...wouldnt we still have some money left over for some other moves? Jose, Maggs, and Konerko combine for 27.5 million in salary. How much salary increases do we have? Lee, Garcia, Contreras, Everett, and Buehrle probably have some...Anyone know the exact number or so? But if management increase payroll 10 mil or so, would we have enough $$$ to sign Vizquel, Randa(if Crede is in Unit trade), and a couple quality bullpen arms?

Maybe someone can crunch some salary numbers for us...

I dont think a lineup of:

Vizquel
Rowand
Lee
Thomas
Everett(if he can get his fat ass in shape)
Randa
Uribe
Gload
Davis

would be all that bad...especially if we assemble a pitching staff like the one we are talking about...

CWSGuy406
10-24-2004, 03:36 PM
That's the first thing I thought of too.

Konerko+3 prospects for RJ and a some $.

:bandance:
What about Konerko + Crede + Prospect for Big Unit?

It gives them a solid player in the IF in Konerko, a young project player, potentially pretty good in Crede, and then the prospect. No money changes hands, except we add about seven million in payroll because we take on RJ's whole contract, but they take on Konerko's whole contract.

I think that's more realistic - and I think Garland would pitch really well in Arizona, JMHO - I'd like to keep Jonny in the five spot.

santo=dorf
10-24-2004, 03:37 PM
What about Konerko + Crede + Prospect for Big Unit?

It gives them a solid player in the IF in Konerko, a young project player, potentially pretty good in Crede, and then the prospect. No money changes hands, except we add about seven million in payroll because we take on RJ's whole contract, but they take on Konerko's whole contract.

I think that's more realistic - and I think Garland would pitch really well in Arizona, JMHO - I'd like to keep Jonny in the five spot.
DONE!

And I updated my sig. :cool:

Flight #24
10-24-2004, 03:38 PM
Ummmm.....if were willing to pay RJ 16.5mil, why not give that $$$ to Beltran, then trade Konerko for a lesser pitcher???

Beltran's more of a sure thing than RJ, and before anyone worries about the long-term deal, the team wil have a ton of flexibility over the next 2 years.

Maybe the Yanks would take Paulie for Brown+cash???

sircaffey1
10-24-2004, 04:08 PM
You dont want to get RJ because he isnt a "sure thing", but you are suggesting to send Pauly to the Yanks for Kevin Brown, who is injured 5 times as much as Randy? What sense does that make. Plus Brown makes almost just about the same as RJ(~15 million)...

Also, we need pitching more than hitting right now. 15 mil spent on pitching is more important than 15 million spent on hitting.

DrCrawdad
10-24-2004, 04:36 PM
...underachievers like Garland...

Watching Kevin Brown in the ALCS game 7 it became clear to me why people compare Garland to Brown.

:)

Wealz
10-24-2004, 04:53 PM
How about instead of Williams concetrating on "winning this year", he concentrates on building a team that can win a World Series at some point during his tenure.

sircaffey1
10-24-2004, 05:58 PM
How about instead of Williams concetrating on "winning this year", he concentrates on building a team that can win a World Series at some point during his tenure.

Or even better, making the playoffs during his tenure...

But if management allows the trade for the unit, I think that pretty much signifies a somewhat significant increase in payroll...No facts, just a sense...

Also, if KW can't get a team with RJ on it to the playoffs, he should be fired immediately.

santo=dorf
10-24-2004, 06:00 PM
How about instead of Williams concetrating on "winning this year", he concentrates on building a team that can win a World Series at some point during his tenure.
And would that include dumping Lee and Konerko to sign "Mr. Contract Year" Adrian Beltre, like you previously suggested? :?:

Deadguy
10-24-2004, 06:14 PM
Perhaps they'd be interested in taking Paul Konerko in they can't re-sign Sexson. Why? Konerko is under contract for just one more season, and they are coming off a 111 loss season. Konerko is a poor man's Sexson, who they traded for last season with the intention of contending for a playoff spot. They don't want Slownerko, since they are obviously in rebuilding mode, if they choose to trade their only real gate attraction left. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Konerko take a hike in a tradelike this, but it makes no sense from Arizona's POV.

Anyway, I'm not shocked to see that KW is trying to acquire RJ. It's very similar to the Wells and Colon type of moves that created a lot of buzz and excitement in the preseason, but would end with us falling short of the playoffs, KW knocking over a few lunch buffets at various times during the season, and that player gone by the next off season. I'd be more excited about acquiring someone who would be here for an extened period of time, while RJ will just eat up a large chunk of payroll for one season and then retire.

MRKARNO
10-24-2004, 06:18 PM
Great sig pic santo!

The numbers really speak for themself in regards to RJ over the past 6 years:

1999 2.49 ERA 364 K
2000 2.64 347 K
2001 2.49 (3 victories in the World Series) 372
2002 2.32 334
2003 4.26 (injury year) 125 K
2004 2.60 290 K

Although his Ks were down in 2004, so were his walks.

The 2003 injury might have been cause for concern....except for the fact that Randy came back this year and was arguably the best pitcher in baseball including throwing one of the most dominant perfect games in the history of baseball at age 40. If he can do that at age 40, why can't he do it at age 41 (or at least come awfully close)? Arizona has played as a hitters' park over the past few years, so I don't think that should be too much of a worry.

There are some players that are so good when they are healthy, that if there is a good possiblity of them continuing to play at that level which you must take a chance on them under any circumstances. Randy Johnson is one of those players. A front three of Johnson, Buehrle and Garcia would make us one of the favorites in the American League immediately, especially if we could solidify our bullpen.

Flight #24
10-24-2004, 07:05 PM
You dont want to get RJ because he isnt a "sure thing", but you are suggesting to send Pauly to the Yanks for Kevin Brown, who is injured 5 times as much as Randy? What sense does that make. Plus Brown makes almost just about the same as RJ(~15 million)...

Also, we need pitching more than hitting right now. 15 mil spent on pitching is more important than 15 million spent on hitting.
No, but Beltran+Brown is more sure than RJ, IMO.

hitlesswonder
10-24-2004, 07:58 PM
No, but Beltran+Brown is more sure than RJ, IMO.
I have to agree with Flight on principle. Johnson is a great pithcer and would be great PR, but it's a big gamble that he'll stay healthy and perform at his usual level next season. Trading significant talent for him and then paying him 17 million is a big blow, unless payroll is raised to replace the lost offensive production. I don't want to see Johnson be injured next year and the Sox left with an anemic lineup, mediocre pitching and no hope. If they're willing to spend, I'd like to see them fill multiple holes, preferably with players that aren't 1 year rentals.

Also, if Arizona gives up Johnson, they'll be rebuilding and want cheap young position players and pitching. I can't see them trading for Konerko or Lee. One or both of them would have to be dealt separately to clear payroll. The only two players at the ML level that I think would interest the Diamondbacks would be Rowand and Crede. And the Sox would likely have to add more to the deal; they'll be bidding against the Yankees. Would people be happy giving up Rowand, Crede, and McCarthy/Anderson for RJ?

jordan23ventura
10-24-2004, 08:46 PM
Go out and get two solid starters for the 18 million it will cost you for Johnson. I've always felt the reality is you need six decent guys to get you through a 162 game season replete with injuries, slumps and double headers.

Lip
I totally agree. As much as I would love to see RJ on the South Side, I'd much rather get two upper-echelon SP, for example Milton/Radke/Pavano/Lowe + a trade for another pitcher (Garland + prospect (s) for Ben Sheets?). Obviously, I doubt that would happen, but it would nice.

Regardless, one of KW's top priorities should be getting a guy like Wilson Alvarez, who can fill in on LR and be a viable starter if someone else goes down.

sircaffey1
10-24-2004, 08:49 PM
No, but Beltran+Brown is more sure than RJ, IMO.


How the hell are we gonna afford both Brown and Beltran?

16 million for Beltran
15 million for Brown

Unless the Yankees are picking up 8-10 million of Brown's contract, then that is ludicrous to think we can afford both...

Did you not pay attention to Brown's season? He was injured off and on all year...right? Why would you even want to take a chance on this guy? He's all but done.

Unit's season this year was a CY Young year...RJ has missed a half season once in the past 8 years...Brown has missed a half a season or more 3 out of the last 4 seasons...

I'm failing to see your point.

Flight #24
10-24-2004, 09:16 PM
How the hell are we gonna afford both Brown and Beltran?

16 million for Beltran
15 million for Brown

Unless the Yankees are picking up 8-10 million of Brown's contract, then that is ludicrous to think we can afford both...

Did you not pay attention to Brown's season? He was injured off and on all year...right? Why would you even want to take a chance on this guy? He's all but done.

Unit's season this year was a CY Young year...RJ has missed a half season once in the past 8 years...Brown has missed a half a season or more 3 out of the last 4 seasons...

I'm failing to see your point.
The point was not that Brown is in any way better than RJ. It was that the only way you'll get RJ is by giving up a fairly significant chunk of the offense, and then you have a guy who could be great, or could get hurt and eats up a huge chunk of salary.

Instead, you can get a much more "sure thing" in Beltran, for the same $$$ but without losing any assets (i.e. no trade). You can then turn around and trade someone for a guy in Brown who's up and down, but who will almost certainly come at a lower salary (Yanks will eat some), and who as a 4th starter, and in a free agent year, would likely be solid. The guy pitched terribly in the playoffs, but had a pretty decent year, and while he's injury prone, his September inaction was a non-pitching injury (punched a wall).

The other piece of this is that Beltran gives you a long-term superstar to build around, whereas RJ is a 1-year deal at best,then he walks without compensation (no arbitration - he'd accept it at a 20% paycut from $16mil).

The Sox minus Konerko and plus RJ would scare me as providing a scenario similar to this year in that we'd struggle to score runs. The Sox with the current pitching staff, adding Frank and Beltran would IMO be a better team than the current team + RJ & Frank but minus Koney. That's the crux of my opinion. Brown's just a way to dump Konerko and pick up a potentially great SP

batmanZoSo
10-24-2004, 09:17 PM
The Unit's age is a risk. But I couldn't resist a scenario like MRKARNO proposed. Konerko for RJ alone would make my offseason. Of course it won't cure all that ails the Sox, but just think of the added leverage in FA negotiations that follow this trade. Hopefully it will create the possibility of adding Visquel and the bullpen help via the FA market.

The guy just threw a perfect game. He's unbelievably worth signing or trading for. I don't see him "breaking down" or anything like that in the near future. If you have him and he gets hot, he can take you all the way. It's stupid to debate in my opinion after another no-playoff year. F--- it. Go for it.

sircaffey1
10-24-2004, 09:29 PM
Yes I understand your point that Beltran would help the offense.

But I am failing to understand your reasoning behind all this Unit is a "big" gamble talk. He had knee surgery in 2003...He comes back and throws a Cy Young season...Apparently he is quite healthy...

And this Brown talk is ludicrous. I highly doubt the Yanks would pick up any more than 5 million of Brown's contract. That leaves you with a 10 million dollar 4th starter that is a MUCH bigger injury risk than RJ...

We don't have the money to get Beltran AND another big impact player...Say we trade Konerko & others for RJ, that increases our payroll by 8.5 million while adding horse that is coming off a VERY STRONG, HEALTHY season...

You suggest getting a highly overpaid pitcher that is coming off an injury plaged season and you call RJ a big injury risk...I don't see the reasoning behind that...

Plus, Beltran + Brown= at least 25 million...unless you plan on convincing Uncle Jerry to spend that much then your scenario is useless and in order to accomplish it were would have to dump salary somewhere and that would mean bye bye to Konerko or Lee.

I guess the main point of our argument is whether RJ is a big injury risk...I dont see it, while you do...

Flight #24
10-24-2004, 09:37 PM
Plus, Beltran + Brown= at least 25 million...unless you plan on convincing Uncle Jerry to spend that much then your scenario is useless and in order to accomplish it were would have to dump salary somewhere and that would mean bye bye to Konerko or Lee.

I guess the main point of our argument is whether RJ is a big injury risk...I dont see it, while you do...
Maybe I'm not being clear (quite possible, and not the first time!:D: ).

I'm not sure the Sox + RJ - Konerko are significantly better than they were in the 2d half of last year. The pitching is a lot better, definitely. But there were far too many games in the 2d half where we just couldnt' score much. Adding Frank will help, but losing Koney at the same time will keep this a below average offense.

In my scenario, you trade Koney for Brown+cash. So it's Sox + Beltran + Brown - Konerko. But really, I'm not that hot for Brown, he's just an option on a short contract that a team wiling to absorb a Koney-type of deal is looking to dump (Vazquez would be much preferred in that deal, but has a longer contract).

My point is that If you can trade Koney for a decent, but not great pitcher and sign Beltran, I think that's at worst even with trading him for RJ and signing an offensive player (or more likely, going with Gload). It's also a much better long-term move.

MRKARNO
10-24-2004, 09:57 PM
Maybe I'm not being clear (quite possible, and not the first time!:D: ).

I'm not sure the Sox + RJ - Konerko are significantly better than they were in the 2d half of last year. The pitching is a lot better, definitely. But there were far too many games in the 2d half where we just couldnt' score much. Adding Frank will help, but losing Koney at the same time will keep this a below average offense.

In my scenario, you trade Koney for Brown+cash. So it's Sox + Beltran + Brown - Konerko. But really, I'm not that hot for Brown, he's just an option on a short contract that a team wiling to absorb a Koney-type of deal is looking to dump (Vazquez would be much preferred in that deal, but has a longer contract).

My point is that If you can trade Koney for a decent, but not great pitcher and sign Beltran, I think that's at worst even with trading him for RJ and signing an offensive player (or more likely, going with Gload). It's also a much better long-term move.

As much as I'd like to see us sign Beltran, I think it's a much much less likely possibility than us getting Randy Johnson. Assuming that it would take a 5 year, 85 million dollar contract to sign Beltran, I dont think it would be realistic to do that. I know we all would like it if Beltran's cost only ended up being 6 years 90 million, but I think Boras will find a way to get more than that.

I have to admit though that if I had to chose between Beltran and RJ, I'd take Beltran due to the fact that we'd have him in the future for potentially a long time. I just see us winning a battle to get RJ or anyone via trade for that matter than a Boras FA.

Flight #24
10-24-2004, 10:03 PM
As much as I'd like to see us sign Beltran, I think it's a much much less likely possibility than us getting Randy Johnson. Assuming that it would take a 5 year, 85 million dollar contract to sign Beltran, I dont think it would be realistic to do that. I know we all would like it if Beltran's cost only ended up being 6 years 90 million, but I think Boras will find a way to get more than that.

I have to admit though that if I had to chose between Beltran and RJ, I'd take Beltran due to the fact that we'd have him in the future for potentially a long time. I just see us winning a battle to get RJ or anyone via trade for that matter than a Boras FA.
Ah screw it - let's just get both!!!

Beltran-Vizquel-Frank-CLee-ARow-Gload-Uribe-Crede-Davis/Burke

RJ-Garcia-Buehrle-Contreras-Garland + Shingo/Marte/Politte/Cotts/Adkins/Grilli

:gulp:

Got anything bigger? No? Ok, then I'll just have another:gulp:

hitlesswonder
10-24-2004, 10:17 PM
But I am failing to understand your reasoning behind all this Unit is a "big" gamble talk. He had knee surgery in 2003...He comes back and throws a Cy Young season...Apparently he is quite healthy...
. He was healthy last season it's true. But He's 41 years old and has to have his knee shot up to lubricate it before every start. It's not like he's 28 with no history of injuries. We disagree, but to me he's definitely not a sure thing health-wise.

And I think Flight's point is that to get RJ you give up players and pay a lot of cash. You could get a less accomplished pitcher and and shore up the lineup if you use the money and players they'd have to give up for RJ in other ways. I don't like the idea of Brown that much either, but there are other pitchers that could be targeted.

And I really think the price for RJ, in terms of talent, will be more than people here think. I remember reading that if the Sox wanted him during the season, the package had to start with Rowand and Garland (I know, that's unsourced, so take for what you will). I think Lee might very well make too much money for a rebuilding team like AZ, and I wouldn't be shocked if they wanted some combination of Crede, McCarthy, and Anderson to fill out the trade.

As for the Yankees not having anything to trade for him, if they wanted they could trade Posada and sign Varitek. Or trade somone else pricey on their roster and pay most of the salary (Matsui?). If they bid on RJ, they'll put togehter a good package.

Flight #24
10-24-2004, 10:30 PM
And I think Flight's point is that to get RJ you give up players and pay a lot of cash. You could get a less accomplished pitcher and and shore up the lineup if you use the money and players they'd have to give up for RJ in other ways. I don't like the idea of Brown that much either, but there are other pitchers that could be targeted.



Now why couldn't I just put it that way so it's easy to understand?:?:

sircaffey1
10-24-2004, 10:44 PM
Now why couldn't I just put it that way so it's easy to understand?:?:

Oh of course I would like NOT to give up any talent and acquire a guy like Beltran, but my point is you have to think about what organization would be getting these players...This is Chicago White Sox...we dont spread money around...If we sign Beltran we lose Konerko, thats what I believe...I dont think ownership will approve that much of a hike in salary...Yes we can afford Beltran by himself, but that would pretty much be ALL of our available money...kind of see what I'm saying?

I think we lose Konerko either way...

And the fact that offense can be had A LOT easier than pitching, my choice would be go for RJ and address our offense using the left over cash...That's my opinion. Hopefully that was less confusing...

Flight #24
10-24-2004, 10:51 PM
Oh of course I would like NOT to give up any talent and acquire a guy like Beltran, but my point is you have to think about what organization would be getting these players...This is Chicago White Sox...we dont spread money around...If we sign Beltran we lose Konerko, thats what I believe...I dont think ownership will approve that much of a hike in salary...Yes we can afford Beltran by himself, but that would pretty much be ALL of our available money...kind of see what I'm saying?

I think we lose Konerko either way...

And the fact that offense can be had A LOT easier than pitching, my choice would be go for RJ and address our offense using the left over cash...That's my opinion. Hopefully that was less confusing...
I guess it all depends on the O we'd pick up with RJ.

And FWIW - They were willing to go big bucks on ARod & Beltran's a similiar type of young star. Plus they were willing to take on Delgado or Walker's deals, indicating a willingness to bump $$$ bigtime, at least temporarily. Finally, they saw that winning& excitement leads to dramatic attendance bumps from the first half #s. That gives me some hope.

sircaffey1
10-24-2004, 11:03 PM
Yes I know...they were reportly willing to go to 195 million for Arod...

I myself have some hope from midseason's trade talk, but walker would probably have just used up Maggs cash, and then we go cheap for vizqual and a average starter...Hopefully they do bump the payroll to $80 mil or more...But history tells me otherwise...I pray to god I am wrong.

nitetrain8601
10-24-2004, 11:24 PM
I don't understand people's logic to go after a guy like Kevin Brown who makes 2 mil less over a guy like Randy Johnson who has done more than double what Brown has done. Please explain to me that. I mean, the plan is if we trade PK, Gload will step right in and in action this year, he did a damn good job at 1B and had a nice Avg., prolly good OBP too. I think most guys are stuck into the big bopper lineup. While it's okay to have boppers, you also need guys who get on base. Just in case you guys didn't know, PK grounded into a boatload of DP's. His HR percentage is nice, but I think he could be replaced. Hell you probably could trade for RJ and then get a guy on the cheap like Delgado if you're worried that much about Gload and you want that Bopper style baseball in this place. You still probably would have enough to still get Vizquel. HOnestly, I don't see Beltran signing here, I think that's a pipedream. I really want him here, but I know there will be others going after his services.

sircaffey1
10-24-2004, 11:29 PM
You bring up Delgado. Thats interesting...

How much you think he will get? I would love to get him here, but he declined a trade here midseason. He isnt getting Maggs money...12-13 million...Could he be had for a Konerko-type salary? 8-9 million? Frank and Delgado back to back and their .400+ OBPs would be incredible. Thomas-Delgado-Lee would be tremendous...Now all we have to do it talk Uncle Jerry into spending 85 million. Thats all...

nitetrain8601
10-24-2004, 11:37 PM
I think Delgado could be had for PK money. Think about it, he hasn't been talked about at alllllll. He had a down year(similar to PK the year before; both turned it up in the 2nd half too). There's so many FA's this year and most teams have a 1B or are developing them. Hell some teams have two. I honestly think Delgado is going to be had for 8 mil with options and probably incentives. I also think he would come here too. I mean, the only reason he didn't come here or anywhere else is because he didn't want to move and then not know if he was going to be there after 3 months. He wants stability, and even though I didn't agree with it, I respected that.

sircaffey1
10-24-2004, 11:43 PM
With all due respect to Konerko if we to do the following it would be awesome...

Trade Konerko & others for RJ
Sign Delgado (~$8-9 million)
=$17 million payroll increase

I would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather do that then sign Beltran if that was the idea. That would be ideal, but still a very large increase in payroll for Jerry to take...we shall see what he does...Red Sox, please just sweep the Cards so teams can start the offseason...

Tragg
10-24-2004, 11:44 PM
I am not thrilled with the idea- 18 mill on one player with our payroll- and that a player who is somewhat of a risk doesn't do it for me. Further, he won't be free- AZ is likely to want major league players and it's likely to create more holes. We need several pitchers and if we really want to improve the D and speed and OBP, we'll need some position players too- lot of needs.
Of course, it would probably be good at the ticket box, publicity, etc.

sircaffey1
10-24-2004, 11:48 PM
I am not thrilled with the idea- 18 mill on one player with our payroll- and that a player who is somewhat of a risk doesn't do it for me. Further, he won't be free- AZ is likely to want major league players and it's likely to create more holes. We need several pitchers and if we really want to improve the D and speed and OBP, we'll need some position players too- lot of needs.
Of course, it would probably be good at the ticket box, publicity, etc.


No doubt...but I view it this way...

If Reinsdorf & Co. is willing to get RJ, they will be willing to increase the payroll a large amount. They obviously know RJ would only be here 1 more year, perhaps 2. If they are willing to trade young players for him and his salary they are going for a run next year. Also, they undoubtedly know that we have many other holes to fill. RJ would not be the end-all cure-all player. They know that we still lack a leadoff hitter and bullpen help, among other things...

RJ=large increase in payroll

Thats the way I view it.

Tragg
10-25-2004, 12:15 AM
No doubt...but I view it this way...

If Reinsdorf & Co. is willing to get RJ, they will be willing to increase the payroll a large amount. They obviously know RJ would only be here 1 more year, perhaps 2. If they are willing to trade young players for him and his salary they are going for a run next year. Also, they undoubtedly know that we have many other holes to fill. RJ would not be the end-all cure-all player. They know that we still lack a leadoff hitter and bullpen help, among other things...

RJ=large increase in payroll

Thats the way I view it.Somewhat, but I'd guess Az would be willing to pick up salary too. REally, we need a catcher, a 2b, a SS, a lead-off hitter, a starter and 2 guys in the bullpen. We can probably take care of a lot of that with a moderate F/A or two and trading Konerko and/or Lee.
BUT I don't see Az doing this deal for Crede, Borchard and prospects- I think it will be Lee/Rowand, Crede and prospects (Az needs major league players- badly)---that takes away a pretty much all the trade bait we have and leaving the holes. And we can't fill all of them via F/A.
Someone said sign RAnda- well, no power at all, 35 years old and simply not a particularly good ballplayer. It's like having a mediocre Mark Grace- there's a problem with having zero power at a corner infield position. Another popular signing suggestion I don't like is Ortiz.
I think we need to be really clever here to address a lot of needs. Sledgehammer approach won't do- if we're trading the guys that hit the taters, we need to get some quantity in return (and quantity that can play).

Yet, even with these needs, we played above .500, which, to me demonstrates the value of having home run hitters, which we have. We'll probably have to trade some of them to improve, but if we goof it up, it could be 73 wins instead of 83.

sircaffey1
10-25-2004, 12:33 AM
I agree with most of what you said...

The last paragraph stood out to me...Have you learned nothing from the past 4 years? We've led the league in HR most of those years and have done absolutely nothing...We have too much power...Trading a guy like Konerko would be fine, if we able to sign a couple decent hitters for a good price (Randa/Vizquel) we should be fine offensively...pitching is the main concern...

If JR is not willing to increase payroll significantly then I DONT want RJ...

Also, Randa is much better than what we have their now. And could be a fine and cheap stopgap until Fields is ready. Crede has had enough time, and is still worth something, hopefully ARZ wants him in the deal for RJ.

SOXSINCE'70
10-25-2004, 07:22 AM
To quote an old 4 Tops album track,

"Shake Me,Wake Me (When It's Over)":rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

MrKinsella
10-25-2004, 08:17 AM
I like the Delgado, Unit idea. It has offense (Delgado), it has probably the best pitcher of my lifetime (Ill give you a hint its not Neil Cotts), and it has us keeping some young guys with talent and potential, (Uribe, Garland(give him a chance as the 5)), and it has a fun team core (Lee, Shingo, Rowand, Garcia, Buerhle). Give Shingo a Mohawk and Buerhle a Jerry Curl and this is the Red Sox team we are watching in the Series. JR might not like spending money, but he knows that investing in a gate attraction would bring in money. This team would not only be enough to get me out to the games, it would keep me working in Chicago for an extra three months in the summer to watch these games.:bandance:

Ol' No. 2
10-25-2004, 09:13 AM
One reason Uncle Jerry might be willing to increase payroll for RJ but not for Beltran is that with Johnson he knows he's committed for only one year, where with Beltran, he's on the hook for 5, 6, 7, or ?? years. I know Johnson is getting old, but we're not looking at him as a long-term solution...if he has one more outstanding year in him, that's all we need. Sure, he's a question mark, but if you look at the list of FA pitchers, there's a question mark on all of them. Is Pavano going to be able to repeat his contract year performance. Will Derek Lowe continue declining from 2002? You can go on down the list.

I, for one, would love to see RJ in a Sox uniform, but only for the right price. I would be wary of giving up too many young players in trade. Young players are the team's lifeblood, and if you keep trading them away, you just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole. I'm not so sure the D-backs are going to get as much for Johnson as people think. Because he's in his last year, only teams that are true contenders are going to want him. It's not what AZ wants that will determine the price - it's what other teams are willing to give. We'll see how good a wheeler-dealer Kenny is.

Flight #24
10-25-2004, 09:20 AM
Yes I know...they were reportly willing to go to 195 million for Arod...

I myself have some hope from midseason's trade talk, but walker would probably have just used up Maggs cash, and then we go cheap for vizqual and a average starter...Hopefully they do bump the payroll to $80 mil or more...But history tells me otherwise...I pray to god I am wrong.
True, but if they were willing to basically add that $$$ to the current group of guys we have (excluding Maggs since he won't ba back), then we coule realistically have that $$$ available now, meaning we can either make a big signing or take on a big salary.

Nitetrain: The point wwas not RJ v. Brown, it was RJ v. Beltran, and you then go get another, cheaper SP (and with Brown, theyanks will definitely either be taking another large salary in return and/or sending cash with Kevin).

As for the Delgado possibility, I highly doubt that the guy who refused a trade to a contender (not just the Sox) is going to make a permanent move unless either the Jays don't make him a reasonable offer at all, or the "new" team overpays. IIRS, there were rumors that he's so happy in Toronto, that he's willing to take a below-market deal to stay. That said, if we can effectively do Koney for RJ + Delgado, then that would obviously be incredible. Alternately, if we can do Koney-RJ and sign Drew, that would be sweet as well. I just don't know that either of those moves will be doable (or in Drew's case that he wont' get more $$$ than we want to pay once we get RJ.

And FWIW - no trades involving BMac, Sweeney, Anderson, Fields, Gio, Honel. Diaz, Munoz are available as is Nanita and others, but we have to hold onto this next crop of guys or we'll REALLY be hurting in a year or 2 unless we can somehow transition to a big=market payroll where we can use FAs instead of prospects.

Flight #24
10-25-2004, 09:22 AM
I'm not so sure the D-backs are going to get as much for Johnson as people think. Because he's in his last year, only teams that are true contenders are going to want him. It's not what AZ wants that will determine the price - it's what other teams are willing to give. We'll see how good a wheeler-dealer Kenny is.
Well, the Yanks will probably be willing to say "Take Dioner Navarro or Robinson Cano, and we'll take all of RJ's salary". We can easily beat the prospects without giving up a ton, but that $$$ is a big deal. The only hope we have is if 'Zona loses Sexson and wants to put forth a contender this year, then they might be interested in Koney. But like you, I'm against trading any of our top guys.

Mickster
10-25-2004, 09:22 AM
For some reason I can just picture Cowley sitting back in his chair and snickering at this thread. :(:

Moses_Scurry
10-25-2004, 09:23 AM
Maybe this is being naive, and I'm not good with the money aspect of baseball, but it seems to me that if the Sox could sign a Milton, they could include Garland in any trades for RJ and it might lessen the package of other players to trade for him.

Or, they could sign a Milton AND a Pavano, and then include Garland in a trade for a decent catcher or ss or relief pitcher.

I would feel as good, if not better, with Milton at #5 than JG, and it might be appealing to a rebuilding team like the D'Backs or Pirates or Brewers to get a young, cheap pitcher who has won 12 or so games the past 3 years and is always tagged to have his "break-out" year.

Makes sense to me. I don't know what Milton would cost, but it can't be too much.

Hangar18
10-25-2004, 09:28 AM
This move shouldve been made a couple years ago (Can you imagine if the
right SOX got Schilling or Johnson a cpl yrs ago? Wouldve been in the Series Twice by now) Even getting an older (and wiser) Randy Johnson is STILL
the move to make, even for PR REASONS. Wow would this team
be scary .......... Thomas, Konerko, Lee Johnson .......
this team has playoffs written on it if they get him

santo=dorf
10-25-2004, 09:38 AM
This move shouldve been made a couple years ago (Can you imagine if the
right SOX got Schilling or Johnson a cpl yrs ago? Wouldve been in the Series Twice by now) Even getting an older (and wiser) Randy Johnson is STILL
the move to make, even for PR REASONS. Wow would this team
be scary .......... Thomas, Konerko, Lee Johnson .......
this team has playoffs written on it if they get him
Have you been reading the thread? Konerko or Lee would probably be part of the deal for Johnson, and don't blame it on Jerry being too cheap to afford all three of them!

santo=dorf
10-25-2004, 09:41 AM
Maybe this is being naive, and I'm not good with the money aspect of baseball, but it seems to me that if the Sox could sign a Milton, they could include Garland in any trades for RJ and it might lessen the package of other players to trade for him.

Or, they could sign a Milton AND a Pavano, and then include Garland in a trade for a decent catcher or ss or relief pitcher.

I would feel as good, if not better, with Milton at #5 than JG, and it might be appealing to a rebuilding team like the D'Backs or Pirates or Brewers to get a young, cheap pitcher who has won 12 or so games the past 3 years and is always tagged to have his "break-out" year.

Makes sense to me. I don't know what Milton would cost, but it can't be too much.Garland> Milton cosidering their prices.
Garland will also be a FA after this year. If we were to waste our money by going into a bidding war with Boston for Pavano, and then shell out more money to sign Milton, we would then have to go through the trouble of finding a suitor for Garland. IMO, it's not worth the hassle.
Just make Garland the #5 and focus on picking up one quality pitcher.

Ol' No. 2
10-25-2004, 09:46 AM
Well, the Yanks will probably be willing to say "Take Dioner Navarro or Robinson Cano, and we'll take all of RJ's salary". We can easily beat the prospects without giving up a ton, but that $$$ is a big deal. The only hope we have is if 'Zona loses Sexson and wants to put forth a contender this year, then they might be interested in Koney. But like you, I'm against trading any of our top guys.If you look over the D-backs roster, they're pretty much set with good young players at most positions. With Gonzo returning, their OF is set, so I'm not sure how interested they might be in CLee. They've got guys they like at 3B, SS and 2B. If they cut Sexson loose, they could be looking for a 1B, but are they going to want to take on a big salary? If a 1B is what they're after, they might prefer to trade with someone else for a cheaper alternative. Or maybe they'd rather have Gload. They could use an upgrade at C, but I'm not sure the Sox are going to wow them with Davis or Burke. I suspect they will want young pitchers more than anything else (who doesn't?). I think we tend to sell our young pitchers short because we had high expectations, but the truth is, young pitchers usually take time to develop, so maybe Kenny could get them interested in someone. I'd be willing to give them Jon Garland to get Randy Johnson and take my chances with the field for a 5th starter.

Ol' No. 2
10-25-2004, 09:49 AM
Maybe this is being naive, and I'm not good with the money aspect of baseball, but it seems to me that if the Sox could sign a Milton, they could include Garland in any trades for RJ and it might lessen the package of other players to trade for him.

Or, they could sign a Milton AND a Pavano, and then include Garland in a trade for a decent catcher or ss or relief pitcher.

I would feel as good, if not better, with Milton at #5 than JG, and it might be appealing to a rebuilding team like the D'Backs or Pirates or Brewers to get a young, cheap pitcher who has won 12 or so games the past 3 years and is always tagged to have his "break-out" year.

Makes sense to me. I don't know what Milton would cost, but it can't be too much.Eric Milton??? The Eric Milton with a 0.59 G/F ratio? THAT Eric Milton?

Hangar18
10-25-2004, 10:04 AM
Have you been reading the thread? Konerko or Lee would probably be part of the deal for Johnson, and don't blame it on Jerry being too cheap to afford all three of them!
KW has to start thinking like Jim "Darth Vader" Hendry. Why give them good
players? Why give them Prospects? Give them players we've already TRIED (and failed) instead.

Flight #24
10-25-2004, 10:08 AM
If they cut Sexson loose, they could be looking for a 1B, but are they going to want to take on a big salary? If a 1B is what they're after, they might prefer to trade with someone else for a cheaper alternative. Or maybe they'd rather have Gload.
RJ for Koney saves the $8mil, and I'm not sure who else woul trade with them and provide a cheaper alternative. The exception being the Yanks, who wouldn't provide much of value in return, but who would provide $16mil of available cap space for them to pursue an FA. I'd bet it takes Koney+Garland (or a better, but less proven guy).

santo=dorf
10-25-2004, 10:10 AM
KW has to start thinking like Jim "Darth Vader" Hendry. Why give them good
players? Why give them Prospects? Give them players we've already TRIED (and failed) instead.
You have to remember Hangar, the GM of the Pirates is a Cubs fan, whereas Jerry Colangelo (native of Chicago Heights) is no longer in control of the D'Backs.
We have to give up something to get something.

gosox41
10-25-2004, 10:22 AM
According to Joe Cowley (take it for what it's worth) in his review of the Sox pitchers today, Kenny Williams plans to pursue Randy Johnson again in the offseason. What's more surprising is that according to Cowley, RJ had the Sox on his original list of teams that he would accept a trade to. Cowley also states that sources indicated KW made at least four calls to the D'backs during the year, trying to make the trade happen. He says that if that fails, KW would like to acquire Pavano, but may have to turn to an Eric Milton or Russ Ortiz. I really don't care to see either Ortiz or Milton here. FWIW, Bruce Levine said yesterday that he knows KW is going to go after another #1 starter this offseason.

Here's the link to the story (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/241sd7.htm).

Here's the question I'll pose. Assuming this interest is legit, would you consider the offseason successful if the Sox traded Lee for the RP that KW wants (one that can close or set up), signed Vizquel to play short, and brought in the Big Unit? I would love to see the Big Unit here for one year. The pitching staff would look really good in that scenario, though the offense would take a hit. I don't know that the D'backs would want Lee as they'll have Luiz Gonzalez back next year, though he is coming off major surgery at the age of 37. Perhaps they'd be interested in taking Paul Konerko in they can't re-sign Sexson. This offseason will be very interesting in we end up following this story for a while.
It's all a farce. KW and JR are faking their interest in Randy Johnson just like they did in A-Rod and like they'll probably do for Beltran.

Seriously, if the Sox got Johnson, a stud reliever, and Vizquel I'd be satisifed with the offseason. But I wouldn't bet on all that happening.


Bob

sircaffey1
10-25-2004, 10:45 AM
Does anyone find it maybe a little strange that since the season has ended, KW has been talking Garland up saying things like, "If I traded him to the NL he would he one of the top young pitchers."? KW loves to talk guys up to try and drive up their value. Could this be another ploy?

Hangar18
10-25-2004, 10:53 AM
It's all a farce. KW and JR are faking their interest in Randy Johnson just like they did in A-Rod and like they'll probably do for Beltran.

Seriously, if the Sox got Johnson, a stud reliever, and Vizquel I'd be satisifed with the offseason. But I wouldn't bet on all that happening.


Bob
at this point ........ Id go for this happening too, and ReUp for Season Tickets.
IF.........
*they Get Randy Johnson (to Make up for their Foolishness in letting a Colon go without getting a comparable Pitcher to replace him)

*they get a Stud Reliever (to make up for their foolishness in letting Gordon go without getting a comparable Pitcher to replace him

*they get Omar Vizquel to play SS/2B (to make up for the foolishness in "trading" Durham and not getting a Comparable 2b/SS to replace him)

I would be Satisfied we could get to the playoffs. That and Give EVERYONE in the organization a Crash Course in Bunting and Situational Hitting too .....

Ol' No. 2
10-25-2004, 12:07 PM
Does anyone find it maybe a little strange that since the season has ended, KW has been talking Garland up saying things like, "If I traded him to the NL he would he one of the top young pitchers."? KW loves to talk guys up to try and drive up their value. Could this be another ploy?Could be. It's also possible that Kenny's interest in Johnson is a red herring. He's been known to do this sort of thing.

sircaffey1
10-25-2004, 12:13 PM
Even if we did trade for RJ this offseason, and the season doesnt work out like we had hoped, we would be able to get most of the young talent we sent away in the trade back by trading him by the deadline to a Boston or Yanks or Anaheim...RJ is worth the extra prospect that we would be losing and not getting back at the deadline if the season was a failure. And if we do make the playoffs then he was worth all of it.

wdelaney72
10-25-2004, 12:27 PM
Is trading for RJ risky? Hell yes! But given it's RJ, I'd take this risk.

With Garland, the thing to keep in mind is that he is likely going to make close to $4 million next year. To me, he's not worth it. Arizona could take Garland, Konerko for RJ and still be saving money. I think it would cost us a bit more than that, though to get RJ. Possibly a Cotts, Grilli, or Diaz type prospect.

gosox41
10-25-2004, 01:41 PM
Is trading for RJ risky? Hell yes! But given it's RJ, I'd take this risk.

With Garland, the thing to keep in mind is that he is likely going to make close to $4 million next year. To me, he's not worth it. Arizona could take Garland, Konerko for RJ and still be saving money. I think it would cost us a bit more than that, though to get RJ. Possibly a Cotts, Grilli, or Diaz type prospect.

No!!! Not Cotts, Grilli, or Diaz.

:)

Bob

akingamongstmen
10-25-2004, 02:56 PM
We all should probably take a deep breath and stop doing this to ourselves. Seriously. I'm usually pretty optimistic, but I just don't see RJ in a White Sox uniform next season (I'll be more than happy to eat those words, though).

Jjav829
10-25-2004, 04:17 PM
We all should probably take a deep breath and stop doing this to ourselves. Seriously. I'm usually pretty optimistic, but I just don't see RJ in a White Sox uniform next season (I'll be more than happy to eat those words, though).Probably. But this is what the offseason is all about. We create our ideas of who we want and dream up the idea of big names like Beltran or Randy Johnson coming here, then come February when our biggest addition is Omar Vizquel we all get to bitch about how the team did nothing one again. Besides, what was that Kenny line? If we can dream it, he can dream it or something like that.

:reinsy
"I don't have dreams, I have nightmares."

Ol' No. 2
10-25-2004, 04:35 PM
Probably. But this is what the offseason is all about. We create our ideas of who we want and dream up the idea of big names like Beltran or Randy Johnson coming here, then come February when our biggest addition is Omar Vizquel we all get to bitch about how the team did nothing one again. Besides, what was that Kenny line? If we can dream it, he can dream it or something like that.I wouldn't be too quick to discount the possibility. This is exactly the kind of high-profile move Kenny loves. If it doesn't work out, they're only on the hook for 1 yr, and if worse comes to worst, they could trade him at the deadline, probably getting back better prospects than they gave up.

Jjav829
10-25-2004, 04:42 PM
I wouldn't be too quick to discount the possibility. This is exactly the kind of high-profile move Kenny loves. If it doesn't work out, they're only on the hook for 1 yr, and if worse comes to worst, they could trade him at the deadline, probably getting back better prospects than they gave up.I wouldn't either. This seems just like the Colon move to me. I'm sure Kenny probably does have a lot of interest in doing this. The only problems are whether the D'backs, RJ, and Reinsdorf have the same feelings. RJ, unlike Colon, actually has to accept the trade here. But I'm sure Kenny will probably pursue this move heavily. I just hope that he doesn't spend so much time going after RJ that we waste a chance to get a FA pitcher.

Flight #24
10-25-2004, 04:45 PM
I wouldn't either. This seems just like the Colon move to me. I'm sure he probably does have a lot of interest in doing this. The only problems are whether the D'backs, RJ, and Reinsdorf have the same feelings. RJ, unlike Colon, actually has to accept the trade here. But I'm sure Kenny will probably pursue this move heavily. I just hope that he doesn't spend so much time going after RJ that we waste a chance to get a FA pitcher.
My biggest concern is that I'm not sure getting RJ at a cost of Koney+BMac/Anderson/Sweeney is a great move. Good for this year, but I don't know that we can take many more hits to our depth in the minors without seriously impacting us long-term.

Ol' No. 2
10-25-2004, 05:17 PM
My biggest concern is that I'm not sure getting RJ at a cost of Koney+BMac/Anderson/Sweeney is a great move. Good for this year, but I don't know that we can take many more hits to our depth in the minors without seriously impacting us long-term.I agree completely with this. But Arizona has some pretty good young OF and IF guys. They're pretty thin in the pitching department. After RJ and Webb, there isn't much. I suspect they're going to be after pitching, and it wouldn't surprise me if they wanted Garland. If the price gets too high, I'd pass and take my chances with Lowe or Ortiz or someone else.

hitlesswonder
10-25-2004, 05:21 PM
My biggest concern is that I'm not sure getting RJ at a cost of Koney+BMac/Anderson/Sweeney is a great move. Good for this year, but I don't know that we can take many more hits to our depth in the minors without seriously impacting us long-term.That's a dangerous thing to say, it invites replies about how it's been 87 years since the Sox won a championship and who cares about the long-term, none of the prospects you mention have done anything at the major league level, and BMac is the next Scott Ruffcorn until he proves otherwise:smile:

I actually share your concern (I don't want the Sox to start looking like the Orioles have the last few years), but even forgetting about the long-term I still think it's highly questionable if getting RJ alone would really improve the Sox enough to win the division next year. If Garland goes, there's still no decent 5th starter. And I imagine a position player is certain to go (and I guess not Crede, since they have Chad Tracy) which means the lineup will be missing Konerko or Lee or Rowand, with Ordonez gone and Thomas questionable. If the Sox raise payroll and sign a quality hitter to replace the lost talent that may be OK, but would they?

It seems like the Sox could improve just as much by signing a competent pitcher and pushing Garland to the #5 slot, and signing a reasonably priced veteran infielder. It would cost less than Johnson in money (or even at worst), and nothing in terms of talent.

shagar69
10-25-2004, 09:36 PM
RJ is not worth it. trading for him would be a great one year solution but leave major questions for the future. IMO it would take AT LEAST a rowand and a garland plus probably a top 5 prospect. that is not worth it. if we wish to go the trade route we should focus on the A's where one of the big three, most likely zito will probably be on the block. not only would the price be way cheaper but he would provide us with a solution for years.

Flight #24
10-25-2004, 09:41 PM
RJ is not worth it. trading for him would be a great one year solution but leave major questions for the future. IMO it would take AT LEAST a rowand and a garland plus probably a top 5 prospect. that is not worth it. if we wish to go the trade route we should focus on the A's where one of the big three, most likely zito will probably be on the block. not only would the price be way cheaper but he would provide us with a solution for years.
RJ and his 16mil salary will cost a ton more than Zito and his 3mil salary, locked up for another year or 2?:?:

Have you been watching any baseball and the associated transactions the past few years?

'Zona isn't looking to deal RJ because of his talent or contract status, it's because of his salary. The prospects you need to provide will be commensurate with how much of that salary you take on. About the only way where your scenario even remotely makes sense is if you're expecting the DBacks to send over a ton of cash (like 10-12mil). If the Sox are willing to take on 8-12mil of that deal, it won't cost anywhere near that much. If it does, though - I'd agree with you. But it won't cost a lot less than that to get Zito.

nitetrain8601
10-25-2004, 10:14 PM
I think with this deal, the Sox want to go with the "For-sure thing." Zito just struggled big time this past year while RJ has been dominant(minus 2003) for the past 7-8. RJ will get you tons of prospects with Zito only giving you some if you tried to trade them during midseason.

santo=dorf
10-25-2004, 10:29 PM
My newest photoshop work: :cool:
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/bschalle/www/Randysox2.JPG

nitetrain8601
10-25-2004, 10:50 PM
Beautiful artwork.

Ol' No. 2
10-26-2004, 12:11 AM
I think with this deal, the Sox want to go with the "For-sure thing." Zito just struggled big time this past year while RJ has been dominant(minus 2003) for the past 7-8. RJ will get you tons of prospects with Zito only giving you some if you tried to trade them during midseason.Zito is more of a flyball pitcher 0.83 G/F. Great for Oakland, but death in Comiskey.

Tragg
10-26-2004, 12:15 AM
Why don't we sign a pitcher for 7 or so mill like Perez, and go on from there. We give up nothing, we still have money left (if we are raising the budget) and should be able to fill holes by trading konerko and a small deal or 2 here and there.

nitetrain8601
10-26-2004, 12:24 AM
You didn't catch the games he pitched in the playoffs right?

Ol' No. 2
10-26-2004, 12:24 AM
Why don't we sign a pitcher for 7 or so mill like Perez, and go on from there. We give up nothing, we still have money left (if we are raising the budget) and should be able to fill holes by trading konerko and a small deal or 2 here and there.If you're gonna get a good starting pitcher, don't screw around - get a stud. Randy Johnson won 16 games with the worst team in all of MLB. If he pitches for the Sox like he pitched this year for the D-backs, he'll win 20 or more. Just about anybody else that's available MIGHT win 14-15, and a lot of them are iffy at that. Plus, if you make the playoffs, RJ is the guy to get you a win. I'd take a chance on RJ in a heartbeat. As long as the price is right. Konerko or Lee and one or maybe two of the young pitchers.

gosox41
10-26-2004, 08:31 AM
My biggest concern is that I'm not sure getting RJ at a cost of Koney+BMac/Anderson/Sweeney is a great move. Good for this year, but I don't know that we can take many more hits to our depth in the minors without seriously impacting us long-term.
It's a tough call. If they go and get Johnson and fill other holes I have no problem trading BMac/Anderson/Sweeney. If getting RJ is their only significant move and other problem areas aren't addressed then it's a bad idea.


KW needs a plan. If it's to go for it now, then do it right. Get a catcher that can hit. Get a good reliever and SS along with a starting pitcher.

But to get just RJ and come back with the same team is not a good idea.


If there's one thing that should have been learned during the 2004 season it's not to put all your eggs in one basket and make the big move in case that player gets hurt/injured. THis team needs depth.




Bob

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 09:15 AM
If there's one thing that should have been learned during the 2004 season it's not to put all your eggs in one basket and make the big move in case that player gets hurt/injured. THis team needs depth.




Bob
That's a good point, but unless you actually get a $24mil payroll bump, it's very tough to add quality depth AND improve your every day lineup significantly. I can easily see a situation where they add 2-4 solid guys, then come up short and everyone's complaining that they didn't "make a real effort" or that they mis-spent by signing a bunch of "chumps" instead of a difference-maker.

I think adding a Beltran or RJ would create a team that could withstand a loss of a player. This year's loss of the top 2 guys is something that IMO no team could have overcome. If you add Beltran & Everett's in shape, then you have a decent backup for Thomas and some OF depth so the offense can absorb a temporary hit. If you add an RJ, you have awesome SP depth. But of course, if "Sox luck" strikes and you sign Beltran, look for Garcia to go down. If you get RJ, it'll be Thomas/Lee/ARow. Murphy's Law made real.

Jjav829
10-26-2004, 09:26 AM
It's a tough call. If they go and get Johnson and fill other holes I have no problem trading BMac/Anderson/Sweeney. If getting RJ is their only significant move and other problem areas aren't addressed then it's a bad idea.


KW needs a plan. If it's to go for it now, then do it right. Get a catcher that can hit. Get a good reliever and SS along with a starting pitcher.

But to get just RJ and come back with the same team is not a good idea.


If there's one thing that should have been learned during the 2004 season it's not to put all your eggs in one basket and make the big move in case that player gets hurt/injured. THis team needs depth.




BobIf they really want to do it, the Sox have a chance to make a move similar to what the Red Sox did last year. The 2003 Red Sox had the offense to win it all. They had a couple good/solid pitchers but lacked that one pitcher who could carry them through the season and into the postseason. They also lacked a solid bullpen. In their case they had no closer. If the Sox really want to make a serious one year run, this would be the move to make. They can try to get Arizona to bite on a decent portion of RJ's salary in return for some upper prospects. Keep both Lee and Konerko here as depth because of the questions surrounding Frank's health. That leaves the base of a solid offense in place. The pitching staff becomes potentially dominant and capable of carrying the team through the playoffs, if they make it that far. Add in a Troy Percival - at his age he might come relatively cheap - to the pen, and you've managed to put together a team that can make a serious run at a title. Unfortunately you'd still be lacking a top of the order on-base machine, but maybe you could add that during the season. That is unless JR really wants to go for it all and allows Kenny to get a Jerry Hairston (and at this point Hairston's $1.5 million doesn't seem too big) or someone like that.

If they followed the above scenario, it would be very similar to the Red Sox offseason where they traded for Schilling, signed Foulke, traded for Bellhorn, and signed Reese. While Schilling will be a Red Sox for a few more years, the move was made mainly for this year knowing that they'd still have Pedro, Varitek, Lowe, Nomar, etc. around for one more year. The RJ move would be similar where he would be here one year. If we win the World Series, the moves managed to fulfill the dreams of generations of White Sox fans. If not, all that salary would be cleared with RJ, Lee, Konerko, and Thomas all potentially gone next year. The payroll would plummet down and JR could choose whether he wanted to continue to keep this nucleus together or go in a different direction.

akingamongstmen
10-26-2004, 11:57 AM
If they really want to do it, the Sox have a chance to make a move similar to what the Red Sox did last year. The 2003 Red Sox had the offense to win it all. They had a couple good/solid pitchers but lacked that one pitcher who could carry them through the season and into the postseason. They also lacked a solid bullpen. In their case they had no closer. If the Sox really want to make a serious one year run, this would be the move to make. They can try to get Arizona to bite on a decent portion of RJ's salary in return for some upper prospects. Keep both Lee and Konerko here as depth because of the questions surrounding Frank's health. That leaves the base of a solid offense in place. The pitching staff becomes potentially dominant and capable of carrying the team through the playoffs, if they make it that far. Add in a Troy Percival - at his age he might come relatively cheap - to the pen, and you've managed to put together a team that can make a serious run at a title. Unfortunately you'd still be lacking a top of the order on-base machine, but maybe you could add that during the season. That is unless JR really wants to go for it all and allows Kenny to get a Jerry Hairston (and at this point Hairston's $1.5 million doesn't seem too big) or someone like that.

If they followed the above scenario, it would be very similar to the Red Sox offseason where they traded for Schilling, signed Foulke, traded for Bellhorn, and signed Reese. While Schilling will be a Red Sox for a few more years, the move was made mainly for this year knowing that they'd still have Pedro, Varitek, Lowe, Nomar, etc. around for one more year. The RJ move would be similar where he would be here one year. If we win the World Series, the moves managed to fulfill the dreams of generations of White Sox fans. If not, all that salary would be cleared with RJ, Lee, Konerko, and Thomas all potentially gone next year. The payroll would plummet down and JR could choose whether he wanted to continue to keep this nucleus together or go in a different direction.
You make a lot of good points here. However, I'm not sold on Percival helping the team. He's lost a lot on his fastball, and I wouldn't be confident with him pitching in a big game. I think a deeper bullpen is the answer (I know, I know...closer by committe doesn't work...blah blah blah). That's the real reason why the Red Sox have had a great run. They're entire bullpen (minus Ramiro Mendoza) is at the very least reliable. You need 4-5 quality arms in the pen to make it over the long haul. Sure, a great closer would be nice, but the price could be too steep.

gosox41
10-26-2004, 12:35 PM
That's a good point, but unless you actually get a $24mil payroll bump, it's very tough to add quality depth AND improve your every day lineup significantly. I can easily see a situation where they add 2-4 solid guys, then come up short and everyone's complaining that they didn't "make a real effort" or that they mis-spent by signing a bunch of "chumps" instead of a difference-maker.

I think adding a Beltran or RJ would create a team that could withstand a loss of a player. This year's loss of the top 2 guys is something that IMO no team could have overcome. If you add Beltran & Everett's in shape, then you have a decent backup for Thomas and some OF depth so the offense can absorb a temporary hit. If you add an RJ, you have awesome SP depth. But of course, if "Sox luck" strikes and you sign Beltran, look for Garcia to go down. If you get RJ, it'll be Thomas/Lee/ARow. Murphy's Law made real.
If the Sox sign 4 solid guys I'd feel they had a good shot to win the division. Of course my definition my solif may be completely different them some. I consider Vizquel a solid guy for a year or 2. I don't consider going back after Koch, Loaiza or the likes of them as solid guys.

But if the Sox were to add 4 solid guys, can they afford to have one of them be Beltran or Randy Johnson?

More realistically, I'd like to see the Sox bring in Vizquel, a good reliever (I need to see a list of FA's), and trading PK plus maybe a prospect for Vazquez and maybe getting some cash from the Yankees.

The Sox would still have room to get another solid reliever or some depth at catching.



Bob

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 12:48 PM
More realistically, I'd like to see the Sox bring in Vizquel, a good reliever (I need to see a list of FA's), and trading PK plus maybe a prospect for Vazquez and maybe getting some cash from the Yankees.

The Sox would still have room to get another solid reliever or some depth at catching.



Bob
So you're sold on the O minus Konerko & Harris and plus Gload & Vizquel? I'd be concerned with that O, but the pitching would be great.

However, in your scenario, if you can have a pay bump of say $8-10 mil, you might be able to get a JD Drew added in.

Brian26
10-26-2004, 01:10 PM
You make a lot of good points here. However, I'm not sold on Percival helping the team

Me neither. Stay away from Percival at all costs.

Ol' No. 2
10-26-2004, 01:16 PM
If the Sox sign 4 solid guys I'd feel they had a good shot to win the division. Of course my definition my solif may be completely different them some. I consider Vizquel a solid guy for a year or 2. I don't consider going back after Koch, Loaiza or the likes of them as solid guys.

But if the Sox were to add 4 solid guys, can they afford to have one of them be Beltran or Randy Johnson?

More realistically, I'd like to see the Sox bring in Vizquel, a good reliever (I need to see a list of FA's), and trading PK plus maybe a prospect for Vazquez and maybe getting some cash from the Yankees.

The Sox would still have room to get another solid reliever or some depth at catching.



BobI'm not so sure the Yankees have soured on Vazquez to the point they'd want to unload him. Plus, his G/F has been dropping the last several years, which doesn't make him a good fit for the Sox. Also, the Yankees are going to be looking to move Bernie to share 1B/DH duties with Giambi, filling the CF spot with we-all-know-who, so they're not in the market for another 1B.

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 01:35 PM
I'm not so sure the Yankees have soured on Vazquez to the point they'd want to unload him. Plus, his G/F has been dropping the last several years, which doesn't make him a good fit for the Sox. Also, the Yankees are going to be looking to move Bernie to share 1B/DH duties with Giambi, filling the CF spot with we-all-know-who, so they're not in the market for another 1B.Wouldn't surprise me, but Beltran + 1-2 pitchers = $220mil payroll. Even if you factor in dumping Vazquez and/or Brown since they'll likely have to take back a salary or send cash to get a deal done. At 40% luxury tax, that's got to be at least a $50 tax on top of the payroll. There's a big difference between a total payroll of $193mil + $30mil tax = $223 mil and $220 mil + $50mil tax = $273mil. If something ahs to give, IMO it'll be Beltran rather than the pitching.

As for them dealing Javier, it's surprising to me, but there are quotes that they've "realized they need to cut ties" (paraphrasing). I think that similar to Contreras, they think he either was an NL mirage, or just can't cut it in NY. Either way, if it's true, the Sox should try to take advantage because I think he can be a very good pitcher, and as a #3 or #4 (if Contreras comes through), he'd be pretty good.

shagar69
10-26-2004, 02:13 PM
IMO there is no way that vazquez gets traded. the yanks need SP very badly. They are probably gonna be look to add at least 1 top SP. why the hell would they get rid of one they already have and force themselves to spend even more money getting another SP?

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 02:33 PM
IMO there is no way that vazquez gets traded. the yanks need SP very badly. They are probably gonna be look to add at least 1 top SP. why the hell would they get rid of one they already have and force themselves to spend even more money getting another SP?
That NY Post article says they'll try to get RandyJ & Pedro/Milton/Millwood, which will mean big big bucks. IMO - that will either leave them out of the Beltran sweepstakes (and none of the Yankee post-LCS articles have had much to say about them pursuing Carlos anyway, it's all been about pitching), and/or require them to try and cut some salary elsewhere if they want to dlute the 40% luxury tax sting.

KW's had good relations with Cashman & the Spanks in the past (Colon, Contreras). I'd be on the horn ASAP figuring out how I can leverage their plans. If they have a hard time getting RJ, send them a mid-level prospect or 2 along with Everett for Vazquez & Cash. They can package the prospects with their own guys and try for RJ. Sox can take the cash and use it to upgrade the bullpen or add some O. Or put Konerko in the deal.

Everett+prospects for Vazquez & then sign Beltran?

Ol' No. 2
10-26-2004, 03:02 PM
Wouldn't surprise me, but Beltran + 1-2 pitchers = $220mil payroll. Even if you factor in dumping Vazquez and/or Brown since they'll likely have to take back a salary or send cash to get a deal done. At 40% luxury tax, that's got to be at least a $50 tax on top of the payroll. There's a big difference between a total payroll of $193mil + $30mil tax = $223 mil and $220 mil + $50mil tax = $273mil. If something ahs to give, IMO it'll be Beltran rather than the pitching.

As for them dealing Javier, it's surprising to me, but there are quotes that they've "realized they need to cut ties" (paraphrasing). I think that similar to Contreras, they think he either was an NL mirage, or just can't cut it in NY. Either way, if it's true, the Sox should try to take advantage because I think he can be a very good pitcher, and as a #3 or #4 (if Contreras comes through), he'd be pretty good.The tax is only on the excess over the threshold, which is $128M for 2005. So assuming a $220M payroll, they would pay $36.8M. But their payroll won't be nearly that high. Williams is going to take a big pay cut, and they got Contreras off their payroll. They're probably going to wind up nearer to $30M in tax. It's not much of a difference, but a million here, a million there, pretty soon you're talking about real money!

I'm not that interested in Vazquez. His G/F has been dropping and has been below 1.0 for the last few years. Unless you can manage 10 K/9, that's not good, and even worse playing in Comiskey.

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 03:16 PM
The tax is only on the excess over the threshold, which is $128M for 2005. So assuming a $220M payroll, they would pay $36.8M. But their payroll won't be nearly that high. Williams is going to take a big pay cut, and they got Contreras off their payroll. They're probably going to wind up nearer to $30M in tax. It's not much of a difference, but a million here, a million there, pretty soon you're talking about real money!

I'm not that interested in Vazquez. His G/F has been dropping and has been below 1.0 for the last few years. Unless you can manage 10 K/9, that's not good, and even worse playing in Comiskey.
How is Williams going to take a paycut? Is his deal up soon? I thought the MLBPA was not allowing any reduction in salary, so the most that he could do would be to restructure to a longer-term deal that reduced his current $$$.

Ol' No. 2
10-26-2004, 03:42 PM
How is Williams going to take a paycut? Is his deal up soon? I thought the MLBPA was not allowing any reduction in salary, so the most that he could do would be to restructure to a longer-term deal that reduced his current $$$.His contract is up. They'll re-sign him for a lot less.

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 03:47 PM
His contract is up. They'll re-sign him for a lot less.OIC.

Jjav829
10-26-2004, 03:49 PM
His contract is up. They'll re-sign him for a lot less.Bernie Williams is still under contract next year for the bargain price of $12 million. :o:

Ol' No. 2
10-26-2004, 03:55 PM
Bernie Williams is still under contract next year for the bargain price of $12 million. :o:Damn. You're right. That's what I get for getting info from a Yankees fan.

Flight #24
10-26-2004, 03:58 PM
Bernie Williams is still under contract next year for the bargain price of $12 million. :o:
Regardless, the questions will be whether George wants to pay Beltran $22mil/year ($16mil + 40% tax), AND add a pitcher or 2 at $14mil/yr ($10mil + 40% tax). If that becomes an "or" situation, I'd bet he'll go for pitching. They don't really need any more O, and Cashman's smarter than to get Beltran at the expense of pitching.

From that perspective, the Tax system may actually have the desired effect, limiting the ability of continuous offenders to pump up salaries.

gosox41
10-27-2004, 07:34 AM
So you're sold on the O minus Konerko & Harris and plus Gload & Vizquel? I'd be concerned with that O, but the pitching would be great.

However, in your scenario, if you can have a pay bump of say $8-10 mil, you might be able to get a JD Drew added in.
I'd like Drew for around $8 mill.

I'm not too sold on the offense minus PK and Harris but it's hard to tell because Gload is so unproven. I know it's more important that the Sox have 5 good starters next season to win instead of 4 starters and whatever minor leaguer they bring up to try out for the team.


Bob

Foulke29
10-27-2004, 09:49 AM
I'll go on record right now and say that neither Randy Johnson nor Carl Pavano will be a part of the White Sox's 2005 campaign.

A Russ Ortiz or Eric Milton is more realistic..... especially Ortiz..... who KW has had his eye on for awhile now.
You're forgetting Derek Lowe - I have a funny feeling that he'll be wearing a Sox Uniform that is not of the red nature.

ilsox7
10-27-2004, 09:51 AM
According to the ESPN Sports Guy today, the Sox had a trade in place for Lowe until the Yankees offered Contreras for good ole Steve. So Lowe may be a possibility...

TheBull19
10-27-2004, 01:25 PM
But Arizona has some pretty good young OF and IF guys. They're pretty thin in the pitching department. After RJ and Webb, there isn't much. I suspect they're going to be after pitching, and it wouldn't surprise me if they wanted Garland. If the price gets too high, I'd pass and take my chances with Lowe or Ortiz or someone else.They're actually pretty weak everywhere, the only young guy who looks good to me is Luis Terraro in CF. Chad Tracy(bad glove though) and Hillenbrand were pretty good at the corners, but they have very little power in their lineup, so I could see them upgrading there anyway just to add power. Their middle infielders have all stunk, especially Gil and Hairston, they can't play a lick of defense, Bautista is gone and I didn't see anyone to replace him. They will definitely be looking for someone to bat in the middle of their lineup, but their pitching stinks too. They have so many holes I think its conceivable that they would consider players of any position to shore up their hitting and god-awful defense(of course not many sox players would help them for the latter), also considering the glut of FA pitchers this year.

Flight #24
10-27-2004, 01:34 PM
They're actually pretty weak everywhere, the only young guy who looks good to me is Luis Terraro in CF. Chad Tracy and Hillenbrand were pretty good at the corners, but they have very little power in their lineup, so I could see them upgrading there anyway just to add power. Their middle infielders have all stunk, especially Gil and Hairston, they can't play a lick of defense, Bautista is gone and I didn't see anyone to replace him. They will definitely be looking for someone to bat in the middle of their lineup, but their pitching stinks too. They have so many holes I think its conceivable that they would consider players of any position to shore up their hitting and god-awful defense(of course not many sox players would help them for the latter), also considering the glut of FA pitchers this year.
I posted this in another thread, but given KW's history with Cashman on deals, this might not be that farfetched:

DBacks get: Robinson Cano, Paul Konerko, Jon Garland
Sox get: Javier Vazquez, Dioner Navarro
Yanks get: Randy Johnson, Carl Everett

Sox end up with a $4-6mil savings on payroll, which combined with an overall payroll bump, enables them to sign JD Drew ($8mil), Wilson Alvarez ($1mil), and Derek Lowe or equivalent ($4mil). Maybe you can also add in a reliever like Percival on a relatively cheap deal ($3mil). Garcia-Buehrle-Vazqueaz-Contreras-Lowe and Harris-Drew-Thomas-CLee-ARow-Gload-Uribe-Crede-Davis/Burke/Navarro sounds good to me.

Or screw it all, and sign Beltran instead.

Foulke29
10-27-2004, 03:29 PM
Garcia-Buehrle-Vazqueaz-Contreras-Lowe and Harris-Drew-Thomas-CLee-ARow-Gload-Uribe-Crede-Davis/Burke/Navarro sounds good to me.
Jamie Navarro is a catcher now. Sweet!