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clean
10-22-2004, 12:12 PM
:o: A serious question. Was Frank Thomas better in his prime than Albert Pujols? If you can, try and back it up with some hard facts as to why or why not.
(im not asking will pujols be better, if he has more potential or anything else. Just if you look at FTs best years, was he better)

idseer
10-22-2004, 12:20 PM
:o: A serious question. Was Frank Thomas better in his prime than Albert Pujols? If you can, try and back it up with some hard facts as to why or why not.
(im not asking will pujols be better, if he has more potential or anything else. Just if you look at FTs best years, was he better)at the same point in his career as thomas the stats say pujols is better so far. more power, better ops, more rbi's, more versatile (position-wise), better hitter.

but comparing pujols so far ... to thomas in his prime? thomas's outweighs those stats.

I_Liked_Manuel
10-22-2004, 12:39 PM
i would have to say both are pretty similar. the thing pujols has going for him right now is that even though thomas had good hitters around him, pujols has rolen and edmonds. i'd have to say pujols is getting a few more pitches to hit. also, remember that when comiskey2 first opened, it was nowhere near the hitters park that it is today

SOXSINCE'70
10-22-2004, 12:47 PM
pujols has rolen and edmonds. i'd have to say pujols is getting a few more pitches to hit. also, remember that when comiskey2 first opened, it was nowhere near the hitters park that it is today

Pujols also has Larry Walker hitting in front of him, Tony Womack in the 7
(or 8) hole and Rentaria leading off.Had Thomas been given the same set of circumstances (including drawn in fences),who knows what would have happened?? But I believe Pujols is the NL version of Frank in his prime
(and then some).

MisterB
10-22-2004, 12:50 PM
Taking into account the increase in offense league-wide just since Thomas' early years, I'd say they're about even. Consider that at age 23 Thomas was the only player in the AL with an OPS over 1.000, whereas Pujols at age 23 was one of 6 players in the NL with an OPS over 1.000. Hitting .300/30/100 while drawing a lot of walks was rare in the early 90's, but it's a lot more common nowadays.

idseer
10-22-2004, 12:53 PM
i would have to say both are pretty similar. the thing pujols has going for him right now is that even though thomas had good hitters around him, pujols has rolen and edmonds. i'd have to say pujols is getting a few more pitches to hit. also, remember that when comiskey2 first opened, it was nowhere near the hitters park that it is todaythomas had the likes of fisk, burks, ventura and franco around him in his first few years too. i don't think there's much difference.
also had leadoff hitters raines and lance johnson.

pinwheels3530
10-22-2004, 01:03 PM
thomas had the likes of fisk, burks, ventura and franco around him in his first few years too. i don't think there's much difference.
also had leadoff hitters raines and lance johnson.

Just posting those names brings back great memories, those were the days!!

RKMeibalane
10-22-2004, 01:18 PM
I'd have to give the overall edge to Pujols because of his defense and base-running ability. As far as each player's hitting is concerned, they're even.

ja1022
10-22-2004, 03:09 PM
Averages after their first four full seasons.

Thomas Pujols
Avg. .328 .333
Runs 106 125
RBI 113 126
HR 34 41
BB 120 76
Ks 79 70
OBP .451 .412
SLG .606 .624
OPS 1.216 1.036

Obviously, anyone with any baseball sense knows there are a whole bunch of intangibles that can't be factored into the equation when you try and evaluate these numbers.

I'm always amazed by the general lack of respect Frank gets. The guy was a two time MVP in Chicago and, by and large, he's been a good citizen. I know at times he can seem to be a pud in the clubhouse and with the media. I know he's prone to foot-in-mouth disease. I know he had that whole union situation a while back. I know he's not what you would call a leader. By the same token, the guy, under enormous pressure, has kept his nose clean. No steroids, drugs, DUIs, police problems, bad posses, etc., etc.. My 12 year old got caught up in that "Big Skirt" thing a couple of years ago, and I had to explain to him that, in his prime, and at that particular time, Frank had few peers.

(Sorry, got off on a tangent there)

MRKARNO
10-22-2004, 04:03 PM
I would take Frank Thomas in his prime over Pujols right now because that on-base percentage is just insane and sets him apart from Pujols a bit. That .040 is an important increase.

Flight #24
10-22-2004, 04:15 PM
Averages after their first four full seasons.

Thomas Pujols
OBP .451 .412
SLG .606 .624
OPS 1.216 1.036


THis may be OT, but isn't OPS = OBP + SLG?

By that, you should have Frank at .451 + .606 = 1.057.

I'll still take Frank because I think that OBP is insane for a power hitter.

hold2dibber
10-22-2004, 04:16 PM
I would take Frank Thomas in his prime over Pujols right now because that on-base percentage is just insane and sets him apart from Pujols a bit. That .040 is an important increase.OPS+ compares a player's OPS against the rest of the league. Therefore, for example, an OPS of 1.000 in a "live ball era" (when lots of players are putting up big OPS numbers) may result in a lower OPS+ than an OPS of 1.000 in a "dead ball era". Comparing Thomas' 1st full 4 seasons against Pujols with respect to OPS+:

Year 1: Pujols 158, Thomas 180
Year 2: Pujols 155, Thomas 174
Year 3: Pujols 189, Thomas 177
Year 4: Pujols 175, Thomas 212

Avg: Pujols 170, Thomas 186

Taking into consideration the times in which they played their 1st four years, I'd take Thomas over Pujols.

(As an aside, Frank is tied for 12th all-time (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_career.shtml)in OPS+, ahead of a bunch of Hall of Famers and legends.)

idseer
10-22-2004, 04:20 PM
Averages after their first four full seasons.

Thomas Pujols
Avg. .328 .333
Runs 106 125
RBI 113 126
HR 34 41
BB 120 76
Ks 79 70
OBP .451 .412
SLG .606 .624
OPS 1.216 1.036

Obviously, anyone with any baseball sense knows there are a whole bunch of intangibles that can't be factored into the equation when you try and evaluate these numbers.

I'm always amazed by the general lack of respect Frank gets. The guy was a two time MVP in Chicago and, by and large, he's been a good citizen. I know at times he can seem to be a pud in the clubhouse and with the media. I know he's prone to foot-in-mouth disease. I know he had that whole union situation a while back. I know he's not what you would call a leader. By the same token, the guy, under enormous pressure, has kept his nose clean. No steroids, drugs, DUIs, police problems, bad posses, etc., etc.. My 12 year old got caught up in that "Big Skirt" thing a couple of years ago, and I had to explain to him that, in his prime, and at that particular time, Frank had few peers.

(Sorry, got off on a tangent there)

your figures are wrong. at least on ops.

the first 5 years ...
.983
1.006
.975
1.033
1.216

... does NOT average out to 1.216
they're close to even in this catagory. in fact pujols may have the edge.
in 4 years pujols avg at 1.037 beats frank's 1st 4 seasons totals every year.
the only catagory frank actually led in was walks.

and i might add comparing frank to pujols is NOT disrespecting frank in any way.

MRKARNO
10-22-2004, 04:28 PM
OPS+ compares a player's OPS against the rest of the league. Therefore, for example, an OPS of 1.000 in a "live ball era" (when lots of players are putting up big OPS numbers) may result in a lower OPS+ than an OPS of 1.000 in a "dead ball era". Comparing Thomas' 1st full 4 seasons against Pujols with respect to OPS+:

Year 1: Pujols 158, Thomas 180
Year 2: Pujols 155, Thomas 174
Year 3: Pujols 189, Thomas 177
Year 4: Pujols 175, Thomas 212

Avg: Pujols 170, Thomas 186

Taking into consideration the times in which they played their 1st four years, I'd take Thomas over Pujols.

(As an aside, Frank is tied for 12th all-time (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_career.shtml)in OPS+, ahead of a bunch of Hall of Famers and legends.)

Yup, absolutely. Frank Thomas is one of the most underrated hitters of all time and any talk to get rid of him is just ridiculous as he's still productive when healthy. There aren't many players in baseball history whose first eight years match those of Frank Thomas, it's just that he kinda fell off afterwards, so it lowered his profile in the past 5-6 years except for 2000 and 2003. I really don't blame Thomas when he gets mad because people don't respect him. He deserves A LOT more respect than he gets. Frank Thomas is one of the best right handed hitters ever and arguably the single best since World War II. If he puts 3 more productive years together, he might be able to solidify that position.

ja1022
10-22-2004, 05:29 PM
THis may be OT, but isn't OPS = OBP + SLG?

By that, you should have Frank at .451 + .606 = 1.057.

I'll still take Frank because I think that OBP is insane for a power hitter.
Sorry about that, I looked at the wrong note. That 1.216 was Frank's OPS in 1994, his second consecutive MVP year.

ja1022
10-22-2004, 06:04 PM
and i might add comparing frank to pujols is NOT disrespecting frank in any way.
I couldn't agree more. In fact, comparing Frank to Pujols or vice versa is about as good a compliment as you can receive. I wasn't trying to suggest in that rant that this thread was disrespectful to Frank. It was just a general observation that alot of younger people, understandably, don't know just how good an offensive player he really was in his prime.

batmanZoSo
10-22-2004, 07:40 PM
Averages after their first four full seasons.

Thomas Pujols
Avg. .328 .333
Runs 106 125
RBI 113 126
HR 34 41
BB 120 76
Ks 79 70
OBP .451 .412
SLG .606 .624
OPS 1.216 1.036

Obviously, anyone with any baseball sense knows there are a whole bunch of intangibles that can't be factored into the equation when you try and evaluate these numbers.

I'm always amazed by the general lack of respect Frank gets. The guy was a two time MVP in Chicago and, by and large, he's been a good citizen. I know at times he can seem to be a pud in the clubhouse and with the media. I know he's prone to foot-in-mouth disease. I know he had that whole union situation a while back. I know he's not what you would call a leader. By the same token, the guy, under enormous pressure, has kept his nose clean. No steroids, drugs, DUIs, police problems, bad posses, etc., etc.. My 12 year old got caught up in that "Big Skirt" thing a couple of years ago, and I had to explain to him that, in his prime, and at that particular time, Frank had few peers.

(Sorry, got off on a tangent there)

Thomas is far better at taking pitches and working the count. But that's not a knock on Pujols, just a tip of the cap to one of the greatest of all time in that respect.

Thomas used to hit a ton of bloop singles when he was really in his prime. Pujols will foul those off, miss them, or hit a frozen rope somewhere. That could explain the slight edge Pujols has in slugging. But Thomas is better in OPS, so the statheads would say Thomas is the better hitter.

Now, Thomas didn't continue that pace for various reasons, but to answer the question I would say Thomas wins. Pujols is faster and has played in a much better lineup than Thomas did in the early 90s when he was basically all we had, so the runs and runs batted in aren't fair (nor are they ever, really). Not that Thomas played on doormat teams, but he sure as hell didn't haven Rolen, Edmonds and Walker.

bahn1225
10-22-2004, 08:28 PM
Stats Schmats.

My favorite memory of those years was being on the concourse and everyone going about their business and then Frank would have his turn at bat.

Everyone on the concourse would slowly move forward and watch his at bat.
Then, afterward, everyone would go back to what they were doing.
It was as if the people were all under the same spell and drawn to that moment in time at the plate.

ChiSox14305635
10-24-2004, 10:37 PM
Frank, in his prime hit in a time where you actually had to play smallball and not solely believe in the Earl Weaver theory of 2 on and the "3 run homer" mentality. During Frank's 2 MVP seasons, chicks didn't dig the long ball. Taking nothing away from Pujols, who is in a league by himself right now and should have a couple of MVP awards, if not for that other guy in San Francisco. But both in their prime, give me Frank. :bandance:

idseer
10-24-2004, 11:04 PM
Frank, in his prime hit in a time where you actually had to play smallball and not solely believe in the Earl Weaver theory of 2 on and the "3 run homer" mentality. During Frank's 2 MVP seasons, chicks didn't dig the long ball. Taking nothing away from Pujols, who is in a league by himself right now and should have a couple of MVP awards, if not for that other guy in San Francisco. But both in their prime, give me Frank. :bandance:
i'm thinkin pujols hasn't reached his prime yet.