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uscomiscular
10-22-2004, 10:51 AM
As the title states this is my opinion on the free agents the SOx should puruse. In no particular order.


Carlos Beltran
Jason Varitek
Cristian Guzman
Adrian Beltre
Curtis Leskanic
Carl Pavano


Here would be my optimum batting order:

Cristian Guzman (SS)
Aaron Rowand (RF)
Carlos Beltran (CF)
Frank Thomas (DH)
Paul Konerko (1B)
Jason Varitek (C)
Adrain Beltre (3B)
Juan Uribe (2B)
Timo Perez (LF)

Pitching:

Freddy Garcia
Mark Buehrle
Jose Contreras
Carl Pavano
John Garland


Bullpen:

Jon Adkins
Jeff Bajenaru
Neal Cotts
Felix Diaz
Arnie Munoz
Damaso Marte
Cliff Politte
Shingo Takatsu
Curtis Leskanic


P.S. This is only a dream

SOXSINCE'70
10-22-2004, 10:57 AM
As the title states this is my opinion on the free agents the SOx should puruse. In no particular order.


Carlos Beltran
Jason Varitek
Cristian Guzman
Adrian Beltre


Here would be my optimum batting order:

Cristian Guzman (SS)
Aaron Rowand (RF)
Carlos Beltran (CF)
Frank Thomas (DH)
Paul Konerko (1B)
Jason Varitek (C)
Adrain Beltre (3B)
Juan Uribe (2B)
Timo Perez (LF)


P.S. This is only a dream

:reinsy

"You're damn right it is.What am I made of,money?? I'll still raise
prices and tick you off.Hey,if you don't come to the park,
how do you expect me to spend money on free agents??
Whaddya want,a World Series or somethin'?? Sheesh!!"

uscomiscular
10-22-2004, 11:00 AM
:cheers: Nice reply

GAsoxfan
10-22-2004, 11:42 AM
So where did Lee go in your dream?

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 11:44 AM
I think you just posted half the Yankees wish-list.

And no, they are not dreaming...

Rex Hudler
10-22-2004, 11:45 AM
Color me unimpressed with this year's free agent pitching class.........

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 11:51 AM
Color me unimpressed with this year's free agent pitching class.........

Pedro doesn't impress you?

GAsoxfan
10-22-2004, 11:55 AM
Pedro doesn't impress you?
Not at his price tag.

idseer
10-22-2004, 11:58 AM
Pedro doesn't impress you?
i wouldn't go anywhere NEAR pedro.

kittle42
10-22-2004, 12:07 PM
Pedro doesn't impress you?
No. He claims to have fathered an entire city. Also, his three-foot companion would have to be on the payroll.

ja1022
10-22-2004, 12:09 PM
As the title states this is my opinion on the free agents the SOx should puruse. In no particular order.


Carlos Beltran
Jason Varitek
Cristian Guzman
Adrian Beltre
Curtis Leskanic
Carl Pavano


Here would be my optimum batting order:

Cristian Guzman (SS)
Aaron Rowand (RF)
Carlos Beltran (CF)
Frank Thomas (DH)
Paul Konerko (1B)
Jason Varitek (C)
Adrain Beltre (3B)
Juan Uribe (2B)
Timo Perez (LF)



P.S. This is only a dreamBeltre and Beltran?? What, are you nuts??? We've already got Crede and Borchard.

I'm not big on Guzman, but it is a nice dream, kind of a wet dream.

hold2dibber
10-22-2004, 12:36 PM
Color me unimpressed with this year's free agent pitching class.........
Really? I think it's a decent class. Here's a list of FAs, each followed by his '04 record, ERA, age and IP:

C. Pavano, Fla 18-8 3.00 28 222.1
O. Perez, LA 7-6 3.25 27 196.1
J. Wright, Atl 15-8 3.28 28 186.1
O. Hernandez, NYY 8-2 3.30 35 84.2
B. Radke, Min 11-8 3.48 31 219.2
M. Clement, ChC 9-13 3.68 30 181.0
D. Wells, SD 12-8 3.73 41 195.2
P. Martinez, Bos 16-9 3.90 32 217.0
W. Alvarez, LA 7-6 4.03 34 120.2
B. Tomko, SF 11-7 4.04 31 194.0
J. Lima, LA 13-5 4.07 32 170.1
R. Ortiz, Atl 15-9 4.13 30 204.2
K. Benson, NYM/Pit 12-12 4.31 29 200.1
J. Lieber, NYY 14-8 4.33 34 176.2
P. Wilson, Cin 11-6 4.36 31 183.2
Ra. Ortiz, Ana 5-7 4.43 31 128.0
S. Elarton, Cle 3-5 4.53 28 117.1
M. Morris, StL 15-10 4.72 30 202.0
E. Milton, Phi 14-6 4.75 29 201.0
K. Millwood, Phi 9-6 4.85 29 141.0
T. Armas, Mtl 2-4 4.88 26 72.0
C. Lidle, Cin/Phi 12-12 4.90 32 211.1
D. Lowe, Bos 14-12 5.42 31 182.2
S. Schoenweiss, CWS 6-9 5.59 31 112.0
E. Loaiza, CWS/NYY 10-7 5.70 32 183.0
H. Nomo, LA 4-11 8.25 36 84.0


My top five probably would be Pavano, Clement, Radke, Lieber, Perez in that order. But if they can't land one of those guys, I could live with Lowe, Millwood, Benson, Wright or Morris. I'm leaving Pedro off of my list because I think he's completely insane and a huge club house disruption (see Sosa, Sammy).

wdelaney72
10-22-2004, 12:37 PM
Guzman?? If this is truly a dream you should set the bar a little higher and have Renteria or Cabrera. Guzman isn't a whole lot better than Uribe.
Varitek will be re-signed by the BoSox.
Pavano will be signed by a much higher bidder.

Sorry to wake you up from your dream.

depy48
10-22-2004, 12:57 PM
Really? I think it's a decent class. Here's a list of FAs, each followed by his '04 record, ERA, age and IP:

C. Pavano, Fla 18-8 3.00 28 222.1
O. Perez, LA 7-6 3.25 27 196.1
J. Wright, Atl 15-8 3.28 28 186.1
O. Hernandez, NYY 8-2 3.30 35 84.2
B. Radke, Min 11-8 3.48 31 219.2
M. Clement, ChC 9-13 3.68 30 181.0
D. Wells, SD 12-8 3.73 41 195.2
P. Martinez, Bos 16-9 3.90 32 217.0
W. Alvarez, LA 7-6 4.03 34 120.2
B. Tomko, SF 11-7 4.04 31 194.0
J. Lima, LA 13-5 4.07 32 170.1
R. Ortiz, Atl 15-9 4.13 30 204.2
K. Benson, NYM/Pit 12-12 4.31 29 200.1
J. Lieber, NYY 14-8 4.33 34 176.2
P. Wilson, Cin 11-6 4.36 31 183.2
Ra. Ortiz, Ana 5-7 4.43 31 128.0
S. Elarton, Cle 3-5 4.53 28 117.1
M. Morris, StL 15-10 4.72 30 202.0
E. Milton, Phi 14-6 4.75 29 201.0
K. Millwood, Phi 9-6 4.85 29 141.0
T. Armas, Mtl 2-4 4.88 26 72.0
C. Lidle, Cin/Phi 12-12 4.90 32 211.1
D. Lowe, Bos 14-12 5.42 31 182.2
S. Schoenweiss, CWS 6-9 5.59 31 112.0
E. Loaiza, CWS/NYY 10-7 5.70 32 183.0
H. Nomo, LA 4-11 8.25 36 84.0


My top five probably would be Pavano, Clement, Radke, Lieber, Perez in that order. But if they can't land one of those guys, I could live with Lowe, Millwood, Benson, Wright or Morris. I'm leaving Pedro off of my list because I think he's completely insane and a huge club house disruption (see Sosa, Sammy).

i've always been a fan of armas, i wouldnt mind giving him a shot

soxfan26
10-22-2004, 01:26 PM
Carlos Beltran
Jason Varitek
Cristian Guzman
Adrian Beltre
Curtis Leskanic
Carl Pavano

Not a bad wish list, I'd like to bring Pavano & Varitek in from that list. Maybe with Varitek calling games we can get a little more consitency out of Judy & Contreras.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 01:37 PM
Not at his price tag.

I wasn't talking about his price, just his numbers.

Well, at least his numbers against teams not from NY. If he was on the Sox he might not even face them during the regular season...

hold2dibber
10-22-2004, 01:38 PM
Not a bad wish list, I'd like to bring Pavano & Varitek in from that list. Maybe with Varitek calling games we can get a little more consitency out of Judy & Contreras.
I have repeatedly heard out of Boston that of all their free agents (Pedro, Lowe, Veritek, Cabrera), Varitek is their priority. If Boston wants him (and they apparently do), it's hard to conceive that the Sox could get him (as I think he likes playing there).

Soxzilla
10-22-2004, 01:38 PM
No. He claims to have fathered an entire city. Also, his three-foot companion would have to be on the payroll.
His penis?

ja1022
10-22-2004, 02:32 PM
His penis?No, I think he's talking about Pedro's "mini-me".
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/2004/09/playoff_bound.html

CanBuehrleWait
10-22-2004, 02:34 PM
i've always been a fan of armas, i wouldnt mind giving him a shot

I'm also a big Armas fan. He is coming off a major arm surgery but that could serve to drive down his price.

A rotation of: Buehrle, Garcia, Armas, Contreas, and Garland would be great.
:D:

MRKARNO
10-22-2004, 02:59 PM
Color me unimpressed with this year's free agent pitching class.........

I have to agree. There's a lot of guys out there who are iffy, have had a "contract" year-type season or have had a bad year after a few good ones.

Contract year guys:
Bradke
Pavano
Wright
El Duque

Good this year, but inconsistant in the past:
Perez
Clement

Uncharacteristically bad year:
Pedro
Nomo
Millwood
Morris
Lowe

If I had to pick one or two who would be available at a reasonable price and would work best for us I would take Lowe or Odalis. Odalis's success was not solely as a result of Dodger stadium, but 26 homers are more than I would like to see given up pitching in the parks he was pitching in, but his low BAA of .250ish should help him as well as his low amount of walks. Plus his G/F is a pretty good 1.62. He might be able to post a 4 ERA at the Cell (which I might add is really good!). Lowe would be good for obvious reasons (insane G/F ratio).

Rex Hudler
10-22-2004, 04:21 PM
Really? I think it's a decent class. Here's a list of FAs, each followed by his '04 record, ERA, age and IP:

C. Pavano, Fla 18-8 3.00 28 222.1
O. Perez, LA 7-6 3.25 27 196.1
J. Wright, Atl 15-8 3.28 28 186.1
O. Hernandez, NYY 8-2 3.30 35 84.2
B. Radke, Min 11-8 3.48 31 219.2
M. Clement, ChC 9-13 3.68 30 181.0
D. Wells, SD 12-8 3.73 41 195.2
P. Martinez, Bos 16-9 3.90 32 217.0
W. Alvarez, LA 7-6 4.03 34 120.2
B. Tomko, SF 11-7 4.04 31 194.0
J. Lima, LA 13-5 4.07 32 170.1
R. Ortiz, Atl 15-9 4.13 30 204.2
K. Benson, NYM/Pit 12-12 4.31 29 200.1
J. Lieber, NYY 14-8 4.33 34 176.2
P. Wilson, Cin 11-6 4.36 31 183.2
Ra. Ortiz, Ana 5-7 4.43 31 128.0
S. Elarton, Cle 3-5 4.53 28 117.1
M. Morris, StL 15-10 4.72 30 202.0
E. Milton, Phi 14-6 4.75 29 201.0
K. Millwood, Phi 9-6 4.85 29 141.0
T. Armas, Mtl 2-4 4.88 26 72.0
C. Lidle, Cin/Phi 12-12 4.90 32 211.1
D. Lowe, Bos 14-12 5.42 31 182.2
S. Schoenweiss, CWS 6-9 5.59 31 112.0
E. Loaiza, CWS/NYY 10-7 5.70 32 183.0
H. Nomo, LA 4-11 8.25 36 84.0


My top five probably would be Pavano, Clement, Radke, Lieber, Perez in that order. But if they can't land one of those guys, I could live with Lowe, Millwood, Benson, Wright or Morris. I'm leaving Pedro off of my list because I think he's completely insane and a huge club house disruption (see Sosa, Sammy).
How many true # 1 or even #2 starters do you see on this list? How many guys would you give a three or four year contract to, completely confident they would perform at a high level for the entire contract? I don't see many at all, if any. Look back at four years ago when the hot names were Hampton, Neagle, Mussina, etc. Mussina is the only one that came close to performing to the level of his contract and at the time, those were all hot pitchers, desired by many teams.

Rex Hudler
10-22-2004, 04:29 PM
Pedro doesn't impress you?
Not particularly and here's why... Pedro has pretty much become a 5 or 6 inning pitcher. His batting average against is somewhere around .189 before he gets to 100 pitches. His BA against after 100 pitches was .361 this year.

Granted, he will give you consistency (if he stays healthy) for the innnings he throws at a high level. But how much do you pay a guy that has trouble getting through the 6th and 7th innnings? Is he worth $15 million a year? $10 million? For how many years?

I don't know the answer, but if I am spending my money, I proceed very cautiously at giving him a ton of money.

hitlesswonder
10-22-2004, 04:58 PM
How many true # 1 or even #2 starters do you see on this list? How many guys would you give a three or four year contract to, completely confident they would perform at a high level for the entire contract? I don't see many at all, if any. Look back at four years ago when the hot names were Hampton, Neagle, Mussina, etc. Mussina is the only one that came close to performing to the level of his contract and at the time, those were all hot pitchers, desired by many teams.
I don't think there are many #1 or #2 pitchers in MLB. In the AL, if you had a 4.00 ERA you were pretty much a top ten pitcher last year. You're right about the class from 4 years ago, I think that just underscores the fact that it's risky to give pitcher a big deal unless he's really special. Since the Sox weren't likely to do that anyway, the lack of quality at top won't affect them too much. Hopefully the market will be depressed, and they can sign someone lower on the list for relatively cheap. They could take a chance on Clement, a groundball pitcher (I think) whose health issues will drive down his price. Or maybe Armas. Just get someone who can pitch semi-competently at the major league level so the Sox don't have a 6.00 ERA pitching every 5th day (although Contreras might do that anyway).

hold2dibber
10-22-2004, 07:14 PM
How many true # 1 or even #2 starters do you see on this list? How many guys would you give a three or four year contract to, completely confident they would perform at a high level for the entire contract? I don't see many at all, if any. Look back at four years ago when the hot names were Hampton, Neagle, Mussina, etc. Mussina is the only one that came close to performing to the level of his contract and at the time, those were all hot pitchers, desired by many teams.
True, but I don't pay too much attention to those huge money guys, since the Sox aren't getting in on that action. I think it's a pretty decent year for a team like the Sox, looking for a decent middle of the rotation type at a reasonable price - there are a glut of those on the market.

The Cheat
10-22-2004, 09:05 PM
Oh boy a leadoff hitter with a career .303 OBP...

***?!?!? is Timo Perez doing starting, let alone on the team? Are you related to him or something?

Wealz
10-22-2004, 09:29 PM
If they can't get Beltre or Beltran they should probably stay out of the free-agent market.

They're in a precarious spot. They aren't good enough to win anything of significance and they're fanbase won't tolerate rebuilding.

Tavarin
10-22-2004, 11:17 PM
Why do people want Christian Guzman? He isn't worth a roster spot. Bad D, low OBP. Sounds like a perfect person to pick up :rolleyes:

OEO Magglio
10-22-2004, 11:40 PM
Why do people want Christian Guzman? He isn't worth a roster spot. Bad D, low OBP. Sounds like a perfect person to pick up :rolleyes:
I don't want guzman either, however I have no idea where you got bad d from.

The Cheat
10-23-2004, 12:31 AM
I don't want guzman either, however I have no idea where you got bad d from.
He had a good year defensively this season, but for the last three years he's still below average...

http://www.aarongleeman.com/2004_10_17_baseballblog_archive.html#1098084322683 68363

nitetrain8601
10-23-2004, 12:33 AM
I think people want Guzman because he does things against the Sox. Personally I think Uribe is cheaper and better overall for his perfomance to money ratio. This would be my all-reasonable list.

SP: Orlando Hernandez/Russ Ortiz
OF: Jermaine Dye
SS: Edgar Renteria

*Note Renteria is in there because I think the Sox will get a mid to big name player. We may not get him exactly, but someone similar.

hold2dibber
10-23-2004, 09:49 AM
I think people want Guzman because he does things against the Sox. Personally I think Uribe is cheaper and better overall for his perfomance to money ratio. This would be my all-reasonable list.

SP: Orlando Hernandez/Russ Ortiz
OF: Jermaine Dye
SS: Edgar Renteria

*Note Renteria is in there because I think the Sox will get a mid to big name player. We may not get him exactly, but someone similar.
Why would you want Dye? We already have someone who will put up Dye-type numbers (Everett) and he's left handed. I simply don't see a need to pick up a 20 HR/80 RBI outfielder. If you can get Beltran that's one thing, but other than him, I don't see OF as a place where the Sox need to sign anyone.

hold2dibber
10-23-2004, 10:00 AM
If they can't get Beltre or Beltran they should probably stay out of the free-agent market.

They're in a precarious spot. They aren't good enough to win anything of significance and they're fanbase won't tolerate rebuilding.
Frankly, that doesn't make any sense. There are a lot of players out there who will make the Sox a lot better next year other than just Beltran or Beltre. For the $16 million/year it would cost to sign Beltran, the Sox likely could sign Pavano ($8 million), Lowe ($4 million) and Polanco ($4 million). Whereas just signing Beltran or Beltre, IMHO, won't really get them anywhere (they need pitching and OBP more than anything, not more power).

Wealz
10-23-2004, 11:58 AM
Frankly, that doesn't make any sense. There are a lot of players out there who will make the Sox a lot better next year other than just Beltran or Beltre. For the $16 million/year it would cost to sign Beltran, the Sox likely could sign Pavano ($8 million), Lowe ($4 million) and Polanco ($4 million). Whereas just signing Beltran or Beltre, IMHO, won't really get them anywhere (they need pitching and OBP more than anything, not more power).
More than anything else they have to find a position player to build around. Pavano, Lowe, and Polanco aren't going to make up for the loss of Ordonez and an aging, often hurt, Thomas. After they find their position player to build around they need to work on replacing Crede, Harris, and Davis in the lineup. Beltre gives them the player to build around and replaces Crede. The upgrade from Crede to Beltre would be enormous.

hitlesswonder
10-23-2004, 02:36 PM
Frankly, that doesn't make any sense. There are a lot of players out there who will make the Sox a lot better next year other than just Beltran or Beltre. .
I have to agree. There are a number of pitchers that have flashed talent and aren't too old but whose value should be low because of question marks (Clement, Lowe, and Armas are some examples). If the market is depressed like last year, I think it's a great opportunity to buy low on a high risk/high reward pitcher. Filling out the rotation with someone who could post a sub-5 ERA would be a huge boost over last year. And even if the Sox are terrible next year and they decide to have a firesale, signing some cheap veteran free agents could pay off since they could be flipped for prospects (assuming they perform well enough).

Beltre or Beltran would be a tremendous improvement over Crede and Borchard, but the Sox could improve significantly without them just by fielding average major league talent at their worst holes (SP, C, OBP at the top of the order). I don't see any reason for the Sox not to shop for some value, even if they have only a few million to spend. It's not like anyone they sign will take development time away from a real prospect (with the possible exception of sitting Uribe for Vizquel).

nitetrain8601
10-23-2004, 02:37 PM
Why would you want Dye? We already have someone who will put up Dye-type numbers (Everett) and he's left handed. I simply don't see a need to pick up a 20 HR/80 RBI outfielder. If you can get Beltran that's one thing, but other than him, I don't see OF as a place where the Sox need to sign anyone.
You're honestly telling me that you would rather have Everett fielding instead of Dye?:rolleyes:

hitlesswonder
10-23-2004, 02:52 PM
You're honestly telling me that you would rather have Everett fielding instead of Dye?:rolleyes:I guess I'd rather have Dye than Everett, but the Sox are stuck with Everett. And even though Dye's defense is better (though not what it was before the broken leg), overall he's probably a marignal performance improvment at best. I think Everett could out-hit him next year.

Over the last 3 years Dye's hit:
Season AVG OBP SLG OPS
2002 .252 .333 .459 .792
2003 .172 .261 .253 .514
2004 .265 .329 .464 .793

If the Sox shell out 6 million on him (he made 11 million this year) and sit Everett they'll be spending 10 million and still have a right fielder with a below .800 OPS. I'd rather they just spent 4 million for that performance and put more money into pitching.

Mohoney
10-23-2004, 03:12 PM
More than anything else they have to find a position player to build around. Pavano, Lowe, and Polanco aren't going to make up for the loss of Ordonez and an aging, often hurt, Thomas. After they find their position player to build around they need to work on replacing Crede, Harris, and Davis in the lineup. Beltre gives them the player to build around and replaces Crede. The upgrade from Crede to Beltre would be enormous.
We have Thomas, Konerko, Lee, and Rowand to build around. We need a supporting cast (get a SS and add to the bench), and we need pitching (An upper-tier starter and LOTS of bullpen help). Signing a Carl Pavano or Russ Ortiz, trading for a Dan Kolb, signing a situational lefty so Cotts can go back to AAA and learn another pitch, and shoring up our SS defense must take precedence over acquiring a big name.

Wealz
10-23-2004, 03:40 PM
We have Thomas, Konerko, Lee, and Rowand to build around. We need a supporting cast (get a SS and add to the bench), and we need pitching (An upper-tier starter and LOTS of bullpen help). Signing a Carl Pavano or Russ Ortiz, trading for a Dan Kolb, signing a situational lefty so Cotts can go back to AAA and learn another pitch, and shoring up our SS defense must take precedence over acquiring a big name.
Thomas is old and Konerko and Lee are a combination of not young enough, cheap enough, or good enough to build around.

mdep524
10-23-2004, 03:41 PM
We have Thomas, Konerko, Lee, and Rowand to build around. We need a supporting cast (get a SS and add to the bench), and we need pitching (An upper-tier starter and LOTS of bullpen help). Signing a Carl Pavano or Russ Ortiz, trading for a Dan Kolb, signing a situational lefty so Cotts can go back to AAA and learn another pitch, and shoring up our SS defense must take precedence over acquiring a big name.As much as I love the Big Hurt, we cannot plan to build around him anymore. He is too much of a risk, injury and age wise. I like the Dan Kolb idea, but please, let's all understand that Russ Ortiz would be Todd Ritchie II if he came to the Cell.

Mohoney
10-23-2004, 03:51 PM
As much as I love the Big Hurt, we cannot plan to build around him anymore.
What do we do, then? Throw $15+ million per year at Beltre or Beltran and sit through another season with Jon Garland as a #3 or #4 starter and a late-inning duo of Neal Cotts and Jon Adkins? I think we have all seen where that leads, and it's not pretty.

What good is Beltre or Beltran when you can't hold a late-inning lead? Or when you wave a proverbial white flag every 5th start?

If you don't want Ortiz, fine. All I'm saying is that we need an accomplished starting pitcher and a bullpen overhaul before we need a superstar position player.

Wealz
10-23-2004, 04:22 PM
What do we do, then? Throw $15+ million per year at Beltre or Beltran and sit through another season with Jon Garland as a #3 or #4 starter and a late-inning duo of Neal Cotts and Jon Adkins? I think we have all seen where that leads, and it's not pretty.

What good is Beltre or Beltran when you can't hold a late-inning lead? Or when you wave a proverbial white flag every 5th start?

If you don't want Ortiz, fine. All I'm saying is that we need an accomplished starting pitcher and a bullpen overhaul before we need a superstar position player.
If my calculations are correct they'll be about $3M under last year's payroll after raises to players currently under contract.

If they can deal Konerko and Lee to free up salary, that number would jump to about $20M under last year's payroll. Just some fun speculation here, how about something like this for next year:

C Davis
1B Gload
2B Hairston (in trade for Konerko)
SS Uribe
3B Glaus
LF Everrett
CF Rowand
RF Drew
DH Thomas

I think the Drew/Glaus combo could be had for around the $20M they'd have in my example above and the pitching staff could be improved using any increase in payroll and by using Crede as trade bait.

Mohoney
10-23-2004, 04:37 PM
If my calculations are correct they'll be about $3M under last year's payroll after raises to players currently under contract.

If they can deal Konerko and Lee to free up salary, that number would jump to about $20M under last year's payroll. Just some fun speculation here, how about something like this for next year:

C Davis
1B Gload
2B Hairston (in trade for Konerko)
SS Uribe
3B Glaus
LF Everrett
CF Rowand
RF Drew
DH Thomas

I think the Drew/Glaus combo could be had for around the $20M they'd have in my example above and the pitching staff could be improved using any increase in payroll and by using Crede as trade bait.
So, which position player are you building around here? Drew? Glaus?

I would rather have Konerko and Lee than Drew and Glaus. Plus, I really don't want to see Gload as an everyday player.

Win1ForMe
10-23-2004, 04:46 PM
Anyone jumping on the Eric Milton bandwagon? I've always liked him; he gave up a lot of HRs this year but his WHIP (1.35) was still very solid. You pretty much know what you're going to get, and for his likely price ($6 M), that's not bad.

Pavano, for example, would probably cost more and there's always the possibility of him being a bust. Milton is a safe choice, and only behind Brad Radke on my personal wish list.

Wealz
10-23-2004, 04:57 PM
So, which position player are you building around here? Drew? Glaus?

I would rather have Konerko and Lee than Drew and Glaus. Plus, I really don't want to see Gload as an everyday player.
I think Drew is a player to build around and Glaus is a better complimentary player than Lee or Konerko because third is a more difficult position to fill than either left or or first. As far as Gload goes, I agree with you, but if they have to put up with him for a year in order to get two guys the caliber of Glaus and Drew that'd be ok.

hold2dibber
10-23-2004, 05:38 PM
More than anything else they have to find a position player to build around. Pavano, Lowe, and Polanco aren't going to make up for the loss of Ordonez and an aging, often hurt, Thomas. After they find their position player to build around they need to work on replacing Crede, Harris, and Davis in the lineup. Beltre gives them the player to build around and replaces Crede. The upgrade from Crede to Beltre would be enormous.
I don't understand what you mean. Why do the Sox need a position player "to build around"? What does that even mean? You don't need to have a top-5 in the game type of guy to win. When the Yankees were winning WS after WS in the late 90s, they didn't have anybody who was leading the league in anything - or was even close to doing so; similarly, the Angels, Marlins and D'backs all had solid line-ups without any superstar position players and won WS championships. The Sox would be much better off spending whatever money they have around to field a solid, top to bottom line-up, with pitching, pitching and more pitching.

Wealz
10-23-2004, 06:05 PM
I don't understand what you mean. Why do the Sox need a position player "to build around"? What does that even mean? You don't need to have a top-5 in the game type of guy to win. When the Yankees were winning WS after WS in the late 90s, they didn't have anybody who was leading the league in anything - or was even close to doing so; similarly, the Angels, Marlins and D'backs all had solid line-ups without any superstar position players and won WS championships. The Sox would be much better off spending whatever money they have around to field a solid, top to bottom line-up, with pitching, pitching and more pitching.
In my opinion it will be very difficult to build an offense to carry this team's pitching with Konerko and Lee being their best players.

Improving the pitching is a wonderful idea, unfortunately Williams already has committed huge dollars to a starting rotation that is decidely mediocre (and that's being kind.) We're stuck with this rotation for the next two or three years and with an offense that will be without Ordonez and Thomas not being able to be counted on, things could get very ugly. The offense has to be addressed this offseason.

akingamongstmen
10-23-2004, 06:20 PM
I don't understand what you mean. Why do the Sox need a position player "to build around"? What does that even mean? You don't need to have a top-5 in the game type of guy to win. When the Yankees were winning WS after WS in the late 90s, they didn't have anybody who was leading the league in anything - or was even close to doing so; similarly, the Angels, Marlins and D'backs all had solid line-ups without any superstar position players and won WS championships. The Sox would be much better off spending whatever money they have around to field a solid, top to bottom line-up, with pitching, pitching and more pitching.
So true. A good SP and a lot of bullpen help will go a long way to helping this team. The Sox need to be solid to to bottom in both their everyday players and their pitching staff.

Ol' No. 2
10-23-2004, 06:28 PM
I don't understand what you mean. Why do the Sox need a position player "to build around"? What does that even mean? You don't need to have a top-5 in the game type of guy to win. When the Yankees were winning WS after WS in the late 90s, they didn't have anybody who was leading the league in anything - or was even close to doing so; similarly, the Angels, Marlins and D'backs all had solid line-ups without any superstar position players and won WS championships. The Sox would be much better off spending whatever money they have around to field a solid, top to bottom line-up, with pitching, pitching and more pitching.AMEN!! If you look at teams that made the playoffs and teams that did something in the playoffs, you'll find plenty that had average offenses, but very few that had average pitching. Pitching wins. It's only been true for about a hundred years.

MeanFish
10-24-2004, 12:31 AM
What you'll also notice is that in terms of sheer numbers, our starting pitching is comparable to the pitching being exhibited by teams in the playoffs. It's the BULLPEN that's fallen short. I would go so far as to say that shoring up the bullpen should take precedence over getting another SP. I'd rather get two more bullpen arms for the price of one SP arm. That way, if we have a bad performance out of a starting pitcher, we don't have to bother trying to ride them through five innings just to save the bullpen.

It's ridiculous to assume that your starting pitchers should always be able to go seven innings. I mean, we had to be WAY up there in terms of quality starts. Why did we lose? Because we had nobody to bail us out when we DIDN'T have one of those very same starts.

A starting pitching arm would certainly be nice, but it should come second to shoring up the pen. Just ask the Twins, Red Sox, Yankees, and Angels (who all had pens that went at least four deep for ultra-high-quality relief)

Ol' No. 2
10-24-2004, 01:05 AM
What you'll also notice is that in terms of sheer numbers, our starting pitching is comparable to the pitching being exhibited by teams in the playoffs. It's the BULLPEN that's fallen short. I would go so far as to say that shoring up the bullpen should take precedence over getting another SP. I'd rather get two more bullpen arms for the price of one SP arm. That way, if we have a bad performance out of a starting pitcher, we don't have to bother trying to ride them through five innings just to save the bullpen.

It's ridiculous to assume that your starting pitchers should always be able to go seven innings. I mean, we had to be WAY up there in terms of quality starts. Why did we lose? Because we had nobody to bail us out when we DIDN'T have one of those very same starts.

A starting pitching arm would certainly be nice, but it should come second to shoring up the pen. Just ask the Twins, Red Sox, Yankees, and Angels (who all had pens that went at least four deep for ultra-high-quality relief)Overall, the Sox were 12th in ERA in the AL. While some of that performance was certainly due to park factors, it's still no better than average. If you look over the stats, neither the starting pitching nor the bullpen was what you would call bad, but they weren't anywhere close to the Red Sox and Cardinals, either. They were both near the middle of the AL.

This can get to be a chicken-and-egg argument. What good is it to have solid starters if the bullpen blows games? But what good is it to have a solid bullpen if they never have a lead to protect? I'm not sure I would prioritize one over the other. Both need to be upgraded. Average is almost never good enough, especially if you want to go deep in the post-season. I looked up the WS teams from the last several years and their league ranks in ERA:

2004: Red Sox(3rd) v Cards(2nd)
2003: Yankees(3rd) v. Marlins(7th)
2002: Angels(2nd) v. Giants(2nd)
2001: Yankees(3rd) v. D-backs(2nd)
2000: Yankees(6th) v. Mets(3rd)
1999: Yankees(2nd) v. Braves(1st)
1998: Yankees(1st) v. Padres(3rd)

The pattern isn't hard to pick out. All but two were in the top 3 of their league. Now look at their hitting rank (runs scored):

2004: Red Sox(1st) v. Cards(1st)
2003: Yankees(3rd) v. Marlins(8th)
2002: Angels(4th) v. Giants(3rd)
2001: Yankees(5th) v. D-backs(3rd)
2000: Yankees(6th) v. Mets(7th)
1999: Yankees(3rd) v. Braves(7th)
1998: Yankees(1st) v. Padres(8th)

Lots of mid-level rankings in the same group. Is anyone really surprised at this? Good pitching usually beats good hitting. Let the Yankees have Carlos Beltran. He's not worth it. For the same money they can get one solid starter and two good relievers, and they'll be way ahead.

mikef1331
10-24-2004, 03:09 AM
Since the Sox seem that they'll likely be trading Konerko or Lee to obtain another player (SP,RP,SS,etc..) here's my crackpot pipe dream FA signing.

Trade Konerko somewhere for a #1 type SP. Then sign Ritchie Sexson who is a FA to replace him at 1b. I know he was injured all season (not his fault), but hear me out on this.Since he was injured most of the 2004 season he might come at a price simillar or less than PK.Can you imagine all the HR's he'd hit in our park!

That's it, I'll now get back to reality.

MisterB
10-24-2004, 03:17 AM
Since the Sox seem that they'll likely be trading Konerko or Lee to obtain another player (SP,RP,SS,etc..) here's my crackpot pipe dream FA signing.

Trade Konerko somewhere for a #1 type SP. Then sign Ritchie Sexson who is a FA to replace him at 1b. I know he was injured all season (not his fault), but hear me out on this. He's younger than PK, hits from the left side of the plate, has experience in the AL Central, has better defense and is a hell of a lot faster than Paulie. Can you imagine all the HR's he'd hit in our park!

That's it, I'll now get back to reality.
Umm...Sexson is older than Konerko, and is a righty. :?:

mikef1331
10-24-2004, 03:33 AM
Umm...Sexson is older than Konerko, and is a righty. :?:

D'OH!!! Boy is my face red :redface: :redface: :redface: ! I thought for sure that he hit lefty and threw righty and that he was a couple years younger than PK. I knew I should have done more research! I'll edit my above post.

hold2dibber
10-24-2004, 09:21 PM
In my opinion it will be very difficult to build an offense to carry this team's pitching with Konerko and Lee being their best players.

Improving the pitching is a wonderful idea, unfortunately Williams already has committed huge dollars to a starting rotation that is decidely mediocre (and that's being kind.) We're stuck with this rotation for the next two or three years and with an offense that will be without Ordonez and Thomas not being able to be counted on, things could get very ugly. The offense has to be addressed this offseason.You're saying the pitching isn't good enough, but you're against spending money to improve the pitching? The Sox have 4 "established" starters right now, which means they need one more starting pitcher. If the pitching isn't good enough and the Sox have free agent $ to spend, wouldn't it make the most sense to spend that money to improve the pitching by filling that last slot? The Sox were 3rd in the league in runs scored last year. They were 12th in ERA. Pitching wins - the Sox don't have enough pitching. They need more pitching, not a superstar offensive player to build around.

Wealz
10-25-2004, 01:25 PM
You're saying the pitching isn't good enough, but you're against spending money to improve the pitching? The Sox have 4 "established" starters right now, which means they need one more starting pitcher. If the pitching isn't good enough and the Sox have free agent $ to spend, wouldn't it make the most sense to spend that money to improve the pitching by filling that last slot? The Sox were 3rd in the league in runs scored last year. They were 12th in ERA. Pitching wins - the Sox don't have enough pitching. They need more pitching, not a superstar offensive player to build around.
The real problem with the Sox rotation isn't the empty 5th slot, it's that 1-4 are, as a group, mediocre and expensive.

I'm not saying that the Sox should add a position player to build around. I'm saying they should try like hell to unload Konerko and Lee and use the savings from that to largely finance the new building block(s). To improve the pitching staff, find a team willing to take Contreras and his $12M.

shagar69
10-25-2004, 01:55 PM
I don't understand what you mean. Why do the Sox need a position player "to build around"? What does that even mean? You don't need to have a top-5 in the game type of guy to win. When the Yankees were winning WS after WS in the late 90s, they didn't have anybody who was leading the league in anything - or was even close to doing so; similarly, the Angels, Marlins and D'backs all had solid line-ups without any superstar position players and won WS championships. The Sox would be much better off spending whatever money they have around to field a solid, top to bottom line-up, with pitching, pitching and more pitching.
yeah you dont need stars to win. I-rod, schilling, johnson,and jeter are all average players