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View Full Version : Get ready for an AWFUL off season.


Justafan
10-22-2004, 10:52 AM
The vibe I'm getting from this team is that they are going to do nothing but tread water in the off season, while the Yankees, Cubs and Red Sox sign the likes of Beltran, Renteria and Cabrera. Same old crap, different day.

I seriously think the White Sox are going to let Bochard have the RF job, while Grilli gets the 5th spot in the rotation. A cousin of mine, who is a huge Cubs fan said that the Cubs were going to hike their payroll to around 110M this year to make room for Beltran and a SS. I know that a high payroll does not mean you are going to win, but that's not the point.

The point is that those teams are at the very least GOING FOR IT. Which is all you can ask for as a fan. The Yankees might not be in the WS, but they were one game away. The Red Sox have a high payroll and they are in the WS.

Rocky Soprano
10-22-2004, 11:11 AM
Can you please ask your cousin what lottery numbers I should play since he/she knows everything.

You are actually listening to what a Cub fan has to say?

:rolleyes:

They have Patterson playing CF, where are they going to put him? They cant afford Beltran if they still have Sosa, and no team seems to want him.

Justafan
10-22-2004, 11:15 AM
Rocky, the point is that the these teams are going to do whatever it takes to win. I suppose Patterson could move to left field if they sign Beltran. It just seems that the Sox will do nothing signifigant(AGAIN) and we can all listen to all of the other teams sign whatever they need.

Randar68
10-22-2004, 11:16 AM
The vibe I'm getting from this team is that they are going to do nothing but tread water in the off season, while the Yankees, Cubs and Red Sox sign the likes of Beltran, Renteria and Cabrera. Same old crap, different day.

I seriously think the White Sox are going to let Bochard have the RF job, while Grilli gets the 5th spot in the rotation. A cousin of mine, who is a huge Cubs fan said that the Cubs were going to hike their payroll to around 110M this year to make room for Beltran and a SS. I know that a high payroll does not mean you are going to win, but that's not the point.

The point is that those teams are at the very least GOING FOR IT. Which is all you can ask for as a fan. The Yankees might not be in the WS, but they were one game away. The Red Sox have a high payroll and they are in the WS.:chickenlittle

idiot.

Justafan
10-22-2004, 11:18 AM
:chickenlittle

idiot.
Intelligent response. How old are you, five?

Rocky Soprano
10-22-2004, 11:21 AM
I know what you mean, I just dont like to see the Cubs listed as a team that does whatever it takes to win. Thats just not true.

I dont know where I heard it, probably here but the Cubs might be picking up Alou's option. If they do that then there is really no way they are going to go get Beltran. Now say they dont pick up Alou who was supposed to make 8MM I believe, you really think they are going to move Patterson to LF and sign Beltran who wants 20MM per year? Thats more than Sosa.

They need to free up some money, the only way is be getting rid of Sosa and Alou.

Im not worried about them at all.

Yeah it would be nice to see the Sox go out and spend some money, but like you said just because you spend it doesnt mean you will win. I want the Sox to spend SMART money.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 11:22 AM
The vibe I'm getting from this team is that they are going to do nothing but tread water in the off season, while the Yankees, Cubs and Red Sox sign the likes of Beltran, Renteria and Cabrera. Same old crap, different day.

I seriously think the White Sox are going to let Bochard have the RF job, while Grilli gets the 5th spot in the rotation. A cousin of mine, who is a huge Cubs fan said that the Cubs were going to hike their payroll to around 110M this year to make room for Beltran and a SS. I know that a high payroll does not mean you are going to win, but that's not the point.

The point is that those teams are at the very least GOING FOR IT. Which is all you can ask for as a fan. The Yankees might not be in the WS, but they were one game away. The Red Sox have a high payroll and they are in the WS.

Yea, and they were going to get Scott Rolen and Jim Thome last year. Plus, Nomar and Maddux were supposed to take them to the WS as well.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Justafan
10-22-2004, 11:28 AM
This is not EXCLUSIVE to the Cubs. This is also about the Red Sox and Yankees, who just happen to play in the american league. Oh well, what do I know.

Dan H
10-22-2004, 11:30 AM
:chickenlittle

idiot.
There was nothing that JustaFan said that deserves this. In fact, he has a great point has the Sox have little credibility when it comes to convincing fans that they are truly serious about putting a World Series class team on the field.

As far as the sky is falling graphic, it is getting to post it. Last time I looked the Sox were nowhere near the playoffs. The sky is not falling? How about going on 46 years since the last World Series appearance?

CubKilla
10-22-2004, 11:35 AM
There was nothing that JustaFan said that deserves this. In fact, he has a great point has the Sox have little credibility when it comes to convincing fans that they are truly serious about putting a World Series class team on the field.

As far as the sky is falling graphic, it is getting to post it. Last time I looked the Sox were nowhere near the playoffs. The sky is not falling? How about going on 46 years since the last World Series appearance?
Agreed. I love the posters who put their head in a hole and refuse to believe that there is anything wrong with the White Sox.

Randar68
10-22-2004, 11:35 AM
Intelligent response. How old are you, five?Fitting of the original post. "Your Cubs fan friend tells you they're going to sign Beltran" because he read it in the paper and that is deserving of a "well the Six suck and can't/won't do anything to improve the club"????

Every offseason KW has been GM has been active, whether or not all his deals have been consummated or not. If you wish to ignore all of that and the 3-years-straight payroll increase the Sox have made and every thing else, then you'd better be willing to look in the mirror to assess your own intelligence before you start calling others out.

:cleo
"I see the Sox doing nothing"


Intelligent posts are worthy of intelligent responses. Unfortunately, your posts in this thread do not fall under that category.

Randar68
10-22-2004, 11:35 AM
Agreed. I love the posters who put their head in a hole and refuse to believe that there is anything wrong with the White Sox.
Yeah, because bitching about things to the point where people are inventing BS to complain about is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO productive.

CubKilla
10-22-2004, 11:37 AM
Every offseason KW has been GM has been active, whether or not all his deals have been consummated or not.
Yep..... KW was a real ball of fire during the '03-'04 offseason :rolleyes:

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 11:38 AM
Yep..... KW was a real ball of fire during the '03-'04 offseason :rolleyes:

He was active enough that they would have been in the post-season had Frank and Maggs not went down.

Something he coundn't have prevented no matter how many players he signed during the winter...

Justafan
10-22-2004, 11:38 AM
Yeah, because bitching about things to the point where people are inventing BS to complain about is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO productive.Inventing BS? Yeah, letting Magglio walk is INVENTING BS. Letting Grilli just take over the 5th spot is INVENTING BS. Those are THE FACTS. I was always told that there is one thing that people who live their life through rose colored glasses hate to hear, it's called THE TRUTH!

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 11:40 AM
Inventing BS? Yeah, letting Magglio walk is INVENTING BS. Letting Grilli just take over the 5th spot is INVENTING BS. Those are THE FACTS. I was always told that there is one thing that people who live their live through rose colored glasses hate to hear, it's called THE TRUTH!

You already know those things for sure?!?

Wow!!! What are next week's lottery numbers???

Justafan
10-22-2004, 11:43 AM
He was active enough that they would have been in the post-season had Frank and Maggs not went down.

Something he coundn't have prevented no matter how many players he signed during the winter...
Yeah, just like they did not have them for the last 4 years while winning the division. Oh, wait, they didn't win it.:rolleyes:

Mickster
10-22-2004, 11:44 AM
Inventing BS? Yeah, letting Magglio walk is INVENTING BS.
Letting Magglio walk? Hell, I'd hold the door for him so it doesn't hit him and Boras in the ass.....

Rocky Soprano
10-22-2004, 11:46 AM
Can Maggs even walk?

Justafan
10-22-2004, 11:46 AM
Letting Magglio walk? Hell, I'd hold the door for him so it doesn't hit him and Boras in the ass.....
Yeah, the best RF the Sox have ever had should be "shown the door".:roflmao:

Palehose13
10-22-2004, 11:47 AM
Inventing BS? Yeah, letting Magglio walk is INVENTING BS. Letting Grilli just take over the 5th spot is INVENTING BS. Those are THE FACTS. I was always told that there is one thing that people who live their life through rose colored glasses hate to hear, it's called THE TRUTH!
I personally am happy that Magglio didn't take the offer that was on the table this season. It doesn't sound good for him (regarding his knee) and I don't want the Sox to spend money on him if he is never going to be the same again.

As far a pitching goes, KW is INFAMOUS for "flying under the radar" (Shingo??? Contreras???) and I believe that he is focusing on pitching for the 2005 season. I would be very surprised if they don't sign another starting pitcher.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 11:48 AM
Yeah, just like they did not have them for the last 4 years while winning the division. Oh, wait, they didn't win it.:rolleyes:

Did you forget 2001 & 2002 already? Does "torn tricep" or "torn labrum" ring a bell? I'd have to take my shoes and socks off to count the number of injuries they had...

Justafan
10-22-2004, 11:49 AM
I must have missed all the big hits Joe Borchard came up with. Yes, let Magglio walk, Borchard is ready:rolleyes:

CubKilla
10-22-2004, 11:51 AM
KW is INFAMOUS for "flying under the radar" (Shingo??? Contreras???)
It's not so much "flying under the radar" and more looking for the cheapest possible alternative (Takatsu, Loaiza) or a SP where the team he comes from pays some of his salary (Contreras).

Good luck KW on finding the next Cal Eldred or Esteban Loaiza :rolleyes:

Palehose13
10-22-2004, 11:51 AM
I must have missed all the big hits Joe Borchard came up with. Yes, let Magglio walk, Borchard is ready:rolleyes:
No, Borchard isn't the answer either. One option is getting a CFer and moving Rowand to RF, or get another servicable RFer.

I have a feeling that Magglio will put up Borchard-type numbers in 2005, if he puts up any numbers at all.

Mickster
10-22-2004, 11:51 AM
Justafan is right. What is Kenny thinking? We should put the $70M/5yr. deal back on the table (but I'm sure Boras would still have problems with deferred money) or in the least, offer Maggs arbitration so that the Sox can pay Maggs $11.2M in 05 for him to rehab his knee! :kukoo: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2226&stc=1

Justafan
10-22-2004, 11:53 AM
Did you forget 2001 & 2002 already? Does "torn tricep" or "torn labrum" ring a bell? I'd have to take my shoes and socks off to count the number of injuries they had...
Ummm, last I checked, the Sox got their asses handed to them by the Twins EVERY DAMN time it mattered. That is an excuse. The Astros lost Pettitte, Miller AND Everett and yet they got to one win of the WS because their owner SPENT and acquired DEPTH.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 11:53 AM
Yeah, the best RF the Sox have ever had should be "shown the door".:roflmao:

Who is looking through rose-colored glasses?

When a player has an injury that doesn't allow him to play the game anymore there really isn't much choice.

See Jackson, Bo or Bell, Albert...

CubKilla
10-22-2004, 11:53 AM
He was active enough that they would have been in the post-season had Frank and Maggs not went down.

Something he coundn't have prevented no matter how many players he signed during the winter...
Just like the Sox did in '03 right? Please. Don't assume just because Frank and Maggs got hurt that the White Sox wouldn't have pulled, what is now becoming a patented, May/July/September choke job.

Palehose13
10-22-2004, 11:53 AM
It's not so much "flying under the radar" and more looking for the cheapest possible alternative (Takatsu, Loaiza) or a SP where the team he comes from pays some of his salary (Contreras).

Good luck KW on finding the next Cal Eldred or Esteban Loaiza :rolleyes:
Yes, because everyone knew about the Bartolo Colon trade before it happened too. :rolleyes:

I think KW tries to find the best talent with what he is allowed to spend. Geesh, some of you guys will never be happy. On on hand you bitch about the Yankees buying their team and other the other you complain cause the White Sox won't. Which do you want?

CubKilla
10-22-2004, 11:56 AM
Can Maggs even walk?
Classy :rolleyes:

Oh, how the misfortunes of a cheapskate owner and an inept GM can turn once adoring fans of Maggs against him by taking cheap shots at what could be a career-ending injury.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 11:57 AM
Ummm, last I checked, the Sox got their asses handed to them by the Twins EVERY DAMN time it mattered. That is an excuse. The Astros lost Pettitte, Miller AND Everett and yet they got to one win of the WS because their owner SPENT and acquired DEPTH.

So now it's KW's fault that JR doesn't spend?

He does what he can with the payroll limitations he has.

Why don't we try waiting and seeing what he does this off-season before bitching about what we ASSume he's going to do?

Mickster
10-22-2004, 11:58 AM
Why don't we try waiting and seeing what he does this off-season before bitching about what we ASSume he's going to do?
Then what will everyone whine about for the next few months? :whiner:

Justafan
10-22-2004, 11:58 AM
Who is looking through rose-colored glasses?

When a player has an injury that doesn't allow him to play the game anymore there really isn't much choice.

See Jackson, Bo or Bell, Albert...
Let me just say this, IMO, Magglio will be back and better then ever. Again, that's just my opinion. Regardless, the Sox messed with him long before the injury happened.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 12:00 PM
Just like the Sox did in '03 right? Please. Don't assume just because Frank and Maggs got hurt that the White Sox wouldn't have pulled, what is now becoming a patented, May/July/September choke job.

They were in first place by the break and killing the Twins every time they faced them. History doesn't always repeat itself.

It's too bad that we'll never know what could have been...

Mickster
10-22-2004, 12:01 PM
Let me just say this, IMO, Magglio will be back and better then ever. Again, that's just my opinion. Regardless, the Sox messed with him long before the injury happened.
Apparently you know more than the majority of MLB teams and certainly more than the White Sox doctors....

CubKilla
10-22-2004, 12:01 PM
On on hand you bitch about the Yankees buying their team and other the other you complain cause the White Sox won't. Which do you want?
All I ask is a legit attempt my management to field a team with a legit shot at the World Series and not a team geared towards winning the "AL Central Championship" like KW said a few weeks back in his letter to the fans.

Take a look at the 2004 White Sox..... we're lightyears behind Boston and St. Louis..... both in players, coaching, and front office personnel.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 12:02 PM
Then what will everyone whine about for the next few months? :whiner:

Yea, I forgot. Some people just aren't happy unless they are whining about things that haven't happened yet.

Personally, complaining about the weather seems to get me by. :wink:

Justafan
10-22-2004, 12:03 PM
So now it's KW's fault that JR doesn't spend?

He does what he can with the payroll limitations he has.

Why don't we try waiting and seeing what he does this off-season before bitching about what we ASSume he's going to do?
This thread is not about KW, It's all about Jerry. Jesus, the Sox have already indicated that they will go on the cheap again when they announced they do not intend to fight it out for Beltran.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 12:05 PM
All I ask is a legit attempt my management to field a team with a legit shot at the World Series and not a team geared towards winning the "AL Central Championship" like KW said a few weeks back in his letter to the fans.

Take a look at the 2004 White Sox..... we're lightyears behind Boston and St. Louis..... both in players, coaching, and front office personnel.

Only one person to blame for that.

Here's a hint:

:reinsy

CubKilla
10-22-2004, 12:06 PM
This thread is not about KW, It's all about Jerry. Jesus, the Sox have already indicated that they will go on the cheap again when they announced they do not intend to fight it out for Beltran.
Actually, you do have to include KW into all the "JR is cheap" talks. It is KW, after all, that needs to become "creative" to get someone worth raising an eyebrow over to come play on Chicago's Southside :D:.

CubKilla
10-22-2004, 12:06 PM
Only one person to blame for that.

Here's a hint:

:reinsy
You don't say? :D:

Mickster
10-22-2004, 12:07 PM
This thread is not about KW, It's all about Jerry. Jesus, the Sox have already indicated that they will go on the cheap again when they announced they do not intend to fight it out for Beltran.
First off, KW said (and I am quoting santo=dorf):

He says getting Beltran will be a lenghty process and they don't have the time to deal with that, and he wants to acquire players sooner and under the radar.
When have you known KW to tip his trades/acquisitions? Did you honestly expect him to say "Yes, we will be aggressively seeking Carlos Beltran!" Isn't that considered tampering?

Make some sense.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 12:09 PM
This thread is not about KW, It's all about Jerry. Jesus, the Sox have already indicated that they will go on the cheap again when they announced they do not intend to fight it out for Beltran.

As much as I complain about JR being cheap and as much as I would love to see Beltran on the south side next year, 20 million (and that's probably a minimum) is A LOT to spend on a single player. Especially when they still need 1-2 more SP and a couple of descent RP.

Do you really want to end up like Texas did with A-rod?

Justafan
10-22-2004, 12:10 PM
First off, KW said (and I am quoting santo=dorf):


When have you known KW to tip his trades/acquisitions? Did you honestly expect him to say "Yes, we will be aggressively seeking Carlos Beltran!" Isn't that considered tampering?

Make some sense.
No! The vibe I got from him was that they are going on the cheap again. I only have history to support my opinion.

How's that for making sense?

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 12:13 PM
Actually, you do have to include KW into all the "JR is cheap" talks. It is KW, after all, that needs to become "creative" to get someone worth raising an eyebrow over to come play on Chicago's Southside :D:.

KW had an extremely difficult job and I for one do not envy him at all. He has absolutely no room for error and every time he makes a bad decision it's magnified X 100 because of the limitations set by JR.

Mickster
10-22-2004, 12:13 PM
No! The vibe I got from him was that they are going on the cheap again. I only have history to support my opinion.

How's that for making sense?They have raised payroll every year for the last 4 years. KW got his ass handed to him at soxfest last year. JR got his ass handed to him last year at the Sox fantasy camp. Do they want to go through that again? How's that for making sense.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 12:15 PM
No! The vibe I got from him was that they are going on the cheap again. I only have history to support my opinion.

How's that for making sense?

So the payroll increases the last three years don't count?

Justafan
10-22-2004, 12:18 PM
So the payroll increases the last three years don't count?
Minimal payoll bumps are nothing. Almost all teams have a higher payroll from year to year. They need to make a statement and quit settling for middle of road status. That is all I'm saying.

Mickster
10-22-2004, 12:19 PM
They need to make a statement and quit settling for middle of road status. That is all I'm saying.
Then reserve your statements of them going on the "cheap" until there is some mention of 2005 payroll.

Justafan
10-22-2004, 12:20 PM
But I do understand that the Sox play in North Dakota, so being that they are not a large market team, I can see why they are in the middle of the pack as far as payroll goes. :rolleyes:

CubKilla
10-22-2004, 12:22 PM
JR got his ass handed to him last year at the Sox fantasy camp. Do they want to go through that again? How's that for making sense.
Do you really think JR cares what the Sox fans think of him? :rolleyes:

Justafan
10-22-2004, 12:23 PM
Sorry to bring the north sider's into this again, but they do play 8 miles from the Sox, correct? What is their payroll? Is it not something like 30M higher then the Sox and probably going to be about 45M higher this year?

Jerry has a free ride from his deal with the state with regards to the cell, which puts money right in his pocket, so don't give me the Cubs are owned by the Tribune crapola.

Mickster
10-22-2004, 12:26 PM
Do you really think JR cares what the Sox fans think of him? :rolleyes:
I think that with the recent successes of the Cubs coupled with the fan's recent and very vocal displeasure of the Sox, we might actually see some changes. Fans have always been against JR but have never been so vocal before, imho.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 12:35 PM
Sorry to bring the north sider's into this again, but they do play 8 miles from the Sox, correct? What is their payroll? Is it not something like 30M higher then the Sox and probably going to be about 45M higher this year?

Jerry has a free ride from his deal with the state with regards to the cell, which puts money right in his pocket, so don't give me the Cubs are owned by the Tribune crapola.

Not only are they owned by the Tribune, they are marketed by them as well. WGN helps a lot too.

For the last decade or so they have had huge attendance numbers even when they were losing. That's a huge advantage over teams like the Sox that only get good attendance when they win.

I have been saying for years that (in theory) an increase in payroll = more wins = more attendance = more money to spend on payroll. The hard part is convincing JR of this theory.

It seems to me that he's starting to come around a little in his old age. Let's see what he has in store for this upcoming season before we shred him to pieces.

IF they do nothing and get pounded the first couple months of the season, then I won't have a problem with the complaining...

Mickster
10-22-2004, 12:38 PM
Not only are they owned by the Tribune, they are marketed by them as well. WGN helps a lot too.

For the last decade or so they have had huge attendance numbers even when they were losing. That's a huge advantage over teams like the Sox that only get good attendance when they win.

I have been saying for years that (in theory) an increase in payroll = more wins = more attendance = more money to spend on payroll. The hard part is convincing JR of this theory.

It seems to me that he's starting to come around a little in his old age. Let's see what he has in store for this upcoming season before we shred him to pieces.

IF they do nothing and get pounded the first couple months of the season, then I won't have a problem with the complaining...
Why must you use logic? Sheesh. :D:

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 12:39 PM
Why must you use logic? Sheesh. :D:

Second time in this thread. Sorry... :D:

Justafan
10-22-2004, 12:43 PM
Logic=going by history. I must have missed something.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 12:45 PM
Logic=going by history. I must have missed something.

Going by history the Yankees should have swept the Red Sox and been awaiting the winner of the NLCS...

Justafan
10-22-2004, 12:46 PM
Going by history the Yankees should have swept the Red Sox and been awaiting the winner of the NLCS...
They were at least in a position to be there, where were the Sox again?

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 12:50 PM
They were at least in a position to be there, where were the Sox again?

My point was that you can't predict the future by pointing to what happened in the past.

For the third (and final since it doesn't seem to be getting through to you) time:

At least wait until KW/JR do something before complaining about it what you think they are going to do.

Mickster
10-22-2004, 12:51 PM
They were at least in a position to be there, where were the Sox again?
The Sox with Hurt and Maggs healthy all season would have had a very good shot at being there. Do you dispute that?

Justafan
10-22-2004, 12:55 PM
The Sox with Hurt and Maggs healthy all season would have had a very good shot at being there. Do you dispute that?
Not sure. However, The Sox had a healthy team in 2002 and 2003 and did not get it done. The Twins lost Stewart and Hunter to injuries for a time and also lost Hawkins and Guardado, yet still ran away with it. The NEARLY CONTRACTED Minnesota stikin Twins, a farmers market team, has OWNED the Sox the last 3 years. Sorry, that's embarrassing.

Mickster
10-22-2004, 01:00 PM
Not sure. However, The Sox had a healthy team in 2002 and 2003 and did not get it done. The Twins lost Stewart and Hunter to injuries for a time and also lost Hawkins and Guardado, yet still ran away with it. The NEARLY CONTRACTED Minnesota stikin Twins, a farmers market team, has OWNED the Sox the last 3 years. Sorry, that's embarrassing.
And the Florida stikin Marlins beat the Yankees in the WS last year. :dunno:

Rocky Soprano
10-22-2004, 01:02 PM
Classy :rolleyes:

Oh, how the misfortunes of a cheapskate owner and an inept GM can turn once adoring fans of Maggs against him by taking cheap shots at what could be a career-ending injury.
I didnt mean it as a cheap shot. But I guess it was easy to take my comment as one. I would LOVE to have Maggs return to play RF for the Sox, but with all the conflicting stories, thats why I said what I said.

Justafan
10-22-2004, 01:04 PM
And the Florida stikin Marlins beat the Yankees in the WS last year. :dunno:
WS the key statement in that post. They were IN THE WS.

kittle42
10-22-2004, 01:09 PM
Agreed. I love the posters who put their head in a hole and refuse to believe that there is anything wrong with the White Sox.
Most don't refuse to believe there is nothing wrong - they just think that oen day Uncle Jerry will stop doing what he has done every year. Naturally, that's just about as bad.

Rocky Soprano
10-22-2004, 01:10 PM
Not sure. However, The Sox had a healthy team in 2002 and 2003 and did not get it done. The Twins lost Stewart and Hunter to injuries for a time and also lost Hawkins and Guardado, yet still ran away with it. The NEARLY CONTRACTED Minnesota stikin Twins, a farmers market team, has OWNED the Sox the last 3 years. Sorry, that's embarrassing.
If you are so embarrased, become a Cub Fan, they never get embarassed.

You said in your opinion Maggs will be back better than ever, man I wish that were to come true. But its a HUGE RISK. So what happens if the Sox give him the big contract and he DOESNT put up the same numbers and is hurt all the time. Will you still be happy? Or will then you complain about how the Sox should raise payroll again so they work around Maggs?

kittle42
10-22-2004, 01:11 PM
At least wait until KW/JR do something before complaining about it what you think they are going to do.
What? Re-signing Cliff Politte wasn't "something?"

:reinsy
"That's about all you're gonna get, too. Foolish optimists."

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 01:12 PM
Not sure. However, The Sox had a healthy team in 2002 and 2003 and did not get it done. The Twins lost Stewart and Hunter to injuries for a time and also lost Hawkins and Guardado, yet still ran away with it. The NEARLY CONTRACTED Minnesota stikin Twins, a farmers market team, has OWNED the Sox the last 3 years. Sorry, that's embarrassing.

I'll admit they choked in 2003 but I don't think they were exactly healthy in 2002. Thomas still wasn't 100% and they were still dealing with arm injuries left and right. Even if they were healthy you can't compare the 2002 team with the 2004 team. They had guys like Glover, Ritchie, Ginter, Biddle, Barcelo, Wright, Parque, Porzio, Baldwin Rauch...

I think at least 2 or 3 of those guys are still playing somewhere...

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 01:15 PM
What? Re-signing Cliff Politte wasn't "something?"

:reinsy
"That's about all you're gonna get, too. Foolish optimists."

Considering there's two teams still playing and to even speak of signing a player is considered tampering I'd say it's still a little early.

Randar68
10-22-2004, 01:16 PM
Inventing BS? Yeah, letting Magglio walk is INVENTING BS. Letting Grilli just take over the 5th spot is INVENTING BS. Those are THE FACTS. I was always told that there is one thing that people who live their life through rose colored glasses hate to hear, it's called THE TRUTH!Have those things happenned yet? Are you listening to your Cubs fans friends and the Tribune Media Machine?

*****.

It's called a "DUMBASS CHICKEN-LITTLE PREDICTION"

You need to look up the word "truth", son.

santo=dorf
10-22-2004, 01:16 PM
Yep..... KW was a real ball of fire during the '03-'04 offseason :rolleyes: yeah, let's blame KW for ****ing up the A-Rod deal that would've sent Maggs to Boston! :rolleyes:

SOXSINCE'70
10-22-2004, 01:17 PM
I consider myself a White Sox pessimist.34 of futile attempts at
winning a WS will do that to you.But I know there are many who
have suffered 2 to 3 decades longer than I have.I feel bad for all
of us.The Sox are my favorite team,but I have alternates (as a Sox
fan knows,once the team is out of it you need a team you can root for,
other than the sCrUBS).It sucks to say "Let's go Red Sawx" or "Let's
Go Yankmees" or any other A.L. team when the Sox are the only A.L.
team I want to see in the postseason.
I have seen GM's with names like Hemmond,Himes,Schueler,
Harrelson, ("The Hawk" didn't "want" me,that's for sure) and now
Williams.Each of these men failed to bring a WS title to the
South Side.Why should things change now? Being a Sox fan
is realising the team will never go to a WS in your lifetime,
no matter who owns them.Trump and Cuban could buy the team,
even they couldn't perform that miracle. I am not going to walk
around with my head in the clouds and believe that "this is the
Sox' year". Why?? Will they solve their infield weaknesses??
Will they acquire a #1 starter?? Will they acquire a # 5
starter?? Trade for Randy Johnson?? Deal seriously with Scott
Boras (Dumb ass) clients like Carlos Beltran?? Not likely.

To be a Sox fan is to suffer excruciating pain when they
fall short of their goals.And you are left always asking the same
question: Dear God,why me??

This is why I will not be a weekend season ticket holder in 2005.
I've seen enough failure to last 5 lifetimes.:angry: :angry:

balke
10-22-2004, 01:20 PM
A cousin of mine, who is a huge Cubs fan said that the Cubs were going to hike their payroll to around 110M this year to make room for Beltran and a SS. I know that a high payroll does not mean you are going to win, but that's not the point.

The point is that those teams are at the very least GOING FOR IT. Which is all you can ask for as a fan. The Yankees might not be in the WS, but they were one game away. The Red Sox have a high payroll and they are in the WS.
We as sox fans have been told we are going to go for it as well. I'm not doubting til we get duped this coming season, but I'm a hopeful sox fan. The cubs have a cheap history as well. They have a lot invested in this team, but I don't think they have the cajones to cough up 110 mil for Beltran. No way Houston lets go of beltran just so he can head to the Cubs. (There is a way I guess, but it's unlikely).

The cubs are in a predicament already w/ Sosa. Noone will take on that full salary (noone in thier right minds). I think CUbs should have to pay at least half of that. That might be kinda steep, but Sosa really isn't worth more than 8 mil at this point.

Sox have a lot invested in their team as well, and the clock is ticking on our pitchers. This is why I think they move forward with acquisitions and hiking payroll. We probably won't see pitching like this on the sox for a long time, when the next 2 seasons are up. Frank might retire around then, and we'll be rebuilding with PK as our leader...

I'm very hopeful and optimistic about this offseason. Sox need to move now if we are going to break our world series-less streak.

santo=dorf
10-22-2004, 01:22 PM
They were at least in a position to be there, where were the Sox again?
He shot down your argument. :whiner: What's with the :dtroll: ?

RKMeibalane
10-22-2004, 01:25 PM
Agreed. I love the posters who put their head in a hole and refuse to believe that there is anything wrong with the White Sox.
I agree, as well. If there's one thing people should have learned over the course of this past season, it is that the Sox have a number of holes, both in their everyday lineup, and in their pitching staff. When I look at the lineup, for example, I have a hard time seeing how this team is going to be able to compete with teams such as Minnesota and Cleveland, let alone Boston and New York. Is there anyone here who honestly belives that Joe Crede and Willie Harris can provide more production than players such as Bill Meuller, Mark Bellhorn, and Pokey Reese. I don't think they can. I'm not even convinced that Harris can out-produce Miguel Cairo or Enrique Wilson.

Justafan
10-22-2004, 01:26 PM
He shot down your argument. :whiner: What's with the :dtroll: ?
He did? I think I made a good point. Anyway, I'll leave it alone for now.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 01:26 PM
I am not going to walk
around with my head in the clouds and believe that "this is the
Sox' year".

I've never said that we should be like Cubs fans and believe "this is our year" every single year but to complain about things that haven't even happened yet is just ignorant.


Why?? Will they solve their infield weaknesses??

Possibly.

Will they acquire a #1 starter??

They got Garcia didn't they?

Will they acquire a # 5 starter??

Getting a #1 would push Garland back to #5.

Trade for Randy Johnson??

I hope not.

Deal seriovusly with Scott Boras (Dumb ass) clients like Carlos Beltran??

First, they've already got a couple on the team. Second, if Beltran is really asking for 20 million a year is he worth it no matter who his agent is?

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 01:35 PM
He did? I think I made a good point. Anyway, I'll leave it alone for now.

You're original arguement was that since historically the Sox haven't spent a lot of money that they won't next year either.

I used an example that proved you can't use history to predict the future.

You bring up the fact that Boston got to the WS?

I'm waiting for you start complaining that Boston is going to lose the 2004 WS because they haven't won one in so long...

santo=dorf
10-22-2004, 01:40 PM
He did? You said "logic=going by history."

He said, "Going by history the Yankees should have swept the Red Sox and been awaiting the winner of the NLCS..."

So who won the ALCS?

Lip Man 1
10-22-2004, 01:44 PM
My only contribution to this discussion is something that Kenny Williams himself said in the off season of 2002 right after he got Colon. I'm paraphrasing here but it went along these lines. 'We need to win so that I don't have to try to rebuild this thing every season...'

Feel free to interpet that comment as you see fit.

Lip

RKMeibalane
10-22-2004, 01:46 PM
My only contribution to this discussion is something that Kenny Williams himself said in the off season of 2002 right after he got Colon. I'm paraphrasing here but it went along these lines. 'We need to win so that I don't have to try to rebuild this thing every season...'

Feel free to interpet that comment as you see fit.

Lip
It's ironic that Williams is faced with the task that he didn't want to deal with. Maybe if JR would get off his ass and spend money, the Sox wouldn't have to find third-tier players to fill their roster before each season.

Justafan
10-22-2004, 01:46 PM
You said "logic=going by history."

He said, "Going by history the Yankees should have swept the Red Sox and been awaiting the winner of the NLCS..."

So who won the ALCS?
This is unbelievable. I bring up the fact the Yankees are always right there, which is all you can ask for as a fan and it turns out to be that the White Sox are now just poor souls who always try hard.

I don't care that the Yankees lost, I was laughing so hard that they did because it was the biggest choke in the history of baseball. But to sit here and tell me that payroll is not that important because the Yankees are not in the WS is a stretch in the biggest sense of the word.

Mickster
10-22-2004, 01:52 PM
But to sit here and tell me that payroll is not that important because the Yankees are not in the WS is a stretch in the biggest sense of the word.
I've been through this thread a few times. Exactly where did anyone say that?

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 01:52 PM
My only contribution to this discussion is something that Kenny Williams himself said in the off season of 2002 right after he got Colon. I'm paraphrasing here but it went along these lines. 'We need to win so that I don't have to try to rebuild this thing every season...'

Feel free to interpet that comment as you see fit.

Lip

KW knows better than anyone that JR subscribes to the theory that "if they win, I'll spend money." When in reality it should be "I need to spend some money so we'll win."

Justafan
10-22-2004, 01:52 PM
I've been through this thread a few times. Exactly where did anyone say that?
Ok, it has been IMPLIED on more then a few posts. Go back and read them.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 01:56 PM
This is unbelievable. I bring up the fact the Yankees are always right there, which is all you can ask for as a fan and it turns out to be that the White Sox are now just poor souls who always try hard.

I don't care that the Yankees lost, I was laughing so hard that they did because it was the biggest choke in the history of baseball. But to sit here and tell me that payroll is not that important because the Yankees are not in the WS is a stretch in the biggest sense of the word.

You're missing the point completely.

Your reason for starting this thread was that this is going to be a horrible off-season because history tells us that.

If we could predict the future by looking at past events then we might as well hand the Yankees the WS trophy every year and not even bother playing the games because history tells us that they have the most.

History is in the past. Complain about that if you like. But at least wait until it happens before complaing about.

It's about as dumb as Cubs fans celebrating their WS victory at the beginning of this year...

DMarte708
10-22-2004, 02:19 PM
Iwritecode But at least wait until it happens before complaing about.

This is familiar.

I recall a certain sentiment echoed throughout WSI when Juan Uribe was signed last offseason. The apologists claimed it wouldn't be the only move, and to hold off complaining until winter meetings. Winter meetings passed and the timetable for bitching was then moved till Spring Training. When no significant trade was made Sox entered the season will an abundance of holes in their team. One promise was held out from the optmistic crowd: KW did promise a midseason acquisition if Sox were in contention, and he followed through. But next season its uncertain if our team will be in the same position. Our minor league system sure as hell cannot withstand another trade of top talent midyear.

Personally, I rather bitch and moan then hold reserve until KW initiates a trade. Why shouldn't I have any doubt? KW honestly believes Grilli is suitable for the 5th starters position. That's a man bracing Sox fans for the worst. We all better get used to negative threads after every Class-A FA is signed by another team and we're left rummaging through the sale bin.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 02:25 PM
This is familiar.

I recall a certain sentiment echoed throughout WSI when Juan Uribe was signed last offseason. The apologists claimed it wouldn't be the only move, and to hold off complaining until winter meetings. Winter meetings passed and the timetable for bitching was then moved till Spring Training. When no significant trade was made Sox entered the season will an abundance of holes in their team. One promise was held out from the optmistic crowd: KW did promise a midseason acquisition if Sox were in contention, and he followed through.

All those people who were complaining before the off-season started felt pretty dumb in the middle of July when the Sox were alone in first...

It's just too bad KW didn't aquire a couple of .300/30/100 guys for "depth" when Maggs and Thomas went down...

Justafan
10-22-2004, 02:30 PM
All those people who were complaining before the off-season started felt pretty dumb in the middle of July when the Sox were alone in first...

It's just too bad KW didn't aquire a couple of .300/30/100 guys for "depth" when Maggs and Thomas went down...
Yeah, or get a 5th starter. Nothing like going into the season with Dan Wright as the 5th starter.

Mickster
10-22-2004, 02:39 PM
Yeah, or get a 5th starter. Nothing like going into the season with Dan Wright as the 5th starter.
I am not defending Danny Wrong, but thuis was the same guy who pitched well in ST and won 12 games for us in the past. I would gladly take 12 wins form a #5 starter on ANY team.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 02:44 PM
I am not defending Danny Wrong, but thuis was the same guy who pitched well in ST and won 12 games for us in the past. I would gladly take 12 wins form a #5 starter on ANY team.

Again, KW should have been smart enough to know that Dan was going to go down with an injury. Man, this guy sucks as a GM...

CubKilla
10-22-2004, 02:44 PM
All those people who were complaining before the off-season started felt pretty dumb in the middle of July when the Sox were alone in first...
I'd have felt pretty dumb if the season ended on July 24th.

And BTW..... KW did try to get C Delgado and L Walker when Maggs and Frank went down. They both invoked their "no trade" clauses though. Wonder why?

Mickster
10-22-2004, 02:48 PM
I'd have felt pretty dumb if the season ended on July 24th.

And BTW..... KW did try to get C Delgado and L Walker when Maggs and Frank went down. They both invoked their "no trade" clauses though. Wonder why?Walker invoked his no trade clause for every team, including the loveable losers, and only accepted when it was the Cards...

Delgado must luuuuv Toronto b/c rumor has it that he's re-signing with them for a multi-year contract worth a lot less than what he was previously being paid.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 02:55 PM
I'd have felt pretty dumb if the season ended on July 24th.

And BTW..... KW did try to get C Delgado and L Walker when Maggs and Frank went down. They both invoked their "no trade" clauses though. Wonder why?

That should prove right there that people need to quit compaining about what an awful off-season this is going to be.

KW is doing everything in his power to turn this team into a WS contender.

kittle42
10-22-2004, 03:01 PM
Considering there's two teams still playing and to even speak of signing a player is considered tampering I'd say it's still a little early.As I have stated before, come April I am going to go back through all of these threads and, while in pain that the Sox did nothing substantial in the offseason, remind all optimists that I was right.

Nevertheless, go White Sox, as always!

Mickster
10-22-2004, 03:04 PM
As I have stated before, come April I am going to go back through all of these threads and, while in pain that the Sox did nothing substantial in the offseason, remind all optimists that I was right.

Nevertheless, go White Sox, as always!
Don't show me my posts!! :D:

kittle42
10-22-2004, 03:05 PM
You're missing the point completely.

Your reason for starting this thread was that this is going to be a horrible off-season because history tells us that.

If we could predict the future by looking at past events then we might as well hand the Yankees the WS trophy every year and not even bother playing the games because history tells us that they have the most.

History is in the past. Complain about that if you like. But at least wait until it happens before complaing about.

It's about as dumb as Cubs fans celebrating their WS victory at the beginning of this year...
That's right...they shouldn't have celebrated the WS at the beginning of the year because history should have told them that the Cubs never get to the WS.

Bang!

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 03:08 PM
As I have stated before, come April I am going to go back through all of these threads and, while in pain that the Sox did nothing substantial in the offseason, remind all optimists that I was right.

Nevertheless, go White Sox, as always!

I've said before that I have no problem if people complain about lack of off-season moves in April.

IF (I know that's a big if) the Sox win the division I'll go back and find your post from April and say "nyah nyah nyah!!!" :wink:

I'm not trying to be an enternal optimist. Just a little less pesimistic until I see what's going on...

Justafan
10-22-2004, 03:09 PM
I did not know Magglio and KW were taking shots at each other.


http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/teams/report/CHW/7814140

Mickster
10-22-2004, 03:09 PM
:tomatoaward

Premature Tomatolation!

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 03:10 PM
:tomatoaward

I knew we'd get here eventually.

:)

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 03:17 PM
That's right...they shouldn't have celebrated the WS at the beginning of the year because history should have told them that the Cubs never get to the WS.

Bang!

Good one! :cool:

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 03:18 PM
I did not know Magglio and KW were taking shots at each other.


http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/teams/report/CHW/7814140

I'd say this deserves it's own thread. Probably in the Clubhouse. It will get buried in here.

Flight #24
10-22-2004, 03:20 PM
I'd have felt pretty dumb if the season ended on July 24th.

And BTW..... KW did try to get C Delgado and L Walker when Maggs and Frank went down. They both invoked their "no trade" clauses though. Wonder why?
Isn't that beside the point? What you're missing is that giant payroll increases were approved, i.e. JR said it's OK to go get Delgado (and his IIRC $18mil deal), or Walker and his multi-year albatross.

That was with a team that WASN'T going to have Frank Thomas. Next year, we will - all year, by the accounts I've seen of his surgery. So tell me again why they'd spend it this year but not next year on what should automatically be a better team?

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 03:25 PM
Isn't that beside the point? What you're missing is that giant payroll increases were approved, i.e. JR said it's OK to go get Delgado (and his IIRC $18mil deal), or Walker and his multi-year albatross.

That was with a team that WASN'T going to have Frank Thomas. Next year, we will - all year, by the accounts I've seen of his surgery. So tell me again why they'd spend it this year but not next year on what should automatically be a better team?

That's a pretty good point...

I'm very interested to see what's going to happen this off-season. It seem like (at least to me) that JR is finally loosing up the purse strings a little bit more.

I don't think he missed the fact that they were selling out games in the first half when they were winning...

Flight #24
10-22-2004, 03:38 PM
The vibe I'm getting from this team is that they are going to do nothing but tread water in the off season, while the Yankees, Cubs and Red Sox sign the likes of Beltran, Renteria and Cabrera. Same old crap, different day.

I seriously think the White Sox are going to let Bochard have the RF job, while Grilli gets the 5th spot in the rotation. A cousin of mine, who is a huge Cubs fan said that the Cubs were going to hike their payroll to around 110M this year to make room for Beltran and a SS. I know that a high payroll does not mean you are going to win, but that's not the point.

The point is that those teams are at the very least GOING FOR IT. Which is all you can ask for as a fan. The Yankees might not be in the WS, but they were one game away. The Red Sox have a high payroll and they are in the WS.
I'm sorry, but this is ludicrous and craptacular. KW says something good about a player and all of a sudden, within a week ro 2 of getting whipped around on this board, you'd think he came out and said "our long term organizational plan is to build around Jason Grilli". Yeah, he said Grilli looked good and would be in the mix for the 5th starter. He also said he wants to get another pitcher, and that "you know me, I'd rather go get a top level guy". There are also numerous reports that Garland's being viewed as the $5, so if Grilli's in the mix....guess what - he & jon may well be fighting it out. But I guess that doesn't fit the sky is falling, conspiracy theories.

Oh yeah, the other piece of your "argument" is great too. Let's assume that the Sox aren't going to go after Beltran. That inherently means they'll settle for Borchard? I wasn't aware that those were the only 2 options. I'll bet the likes of JD Drew & jermaine Dye would be surprised at that too. That ignores the fact that the Sox have been rumored to be interested in Beltran and the only quote from the team on the subject doesn't really say anything one way or another.

Finally - there's a lot of "man, people have turned on Maggs pretty quickly". What's more the case is that people recognize that right now all circumstantial evidence points towards Maggs being imapcted by his injury at least in 05 if not beyond. That's just not a risk that people want to take when there are other options available that can actually improve the team more in terms of performance and resources used.

Iwritecode
10-22-2004, 03:58 PM
I'm sorry, but this is ludicrous and craptacular. KW says something good about a player and all of a sudden, within a week ro 2 of getting whipped around on this board, you'd think he came out and said "our long term organizational plan is to build around Jason Grilli". Yeah, he said Grilli looked good and would be in the mix for the 5th starter. He also said he wants to get another pitcher, and that "you know me, I'd rather go get a top level guy". There are also numerous reports that Garland's being viewed as the $5, so if Grilli's in the mix....guess what - he & jon may well be fighting it out. But I guess that doesn't fit the sky is falling, conspiracy theories.

Oh yeah, the other piece of your "argument" is great too. Let's assume that the Sox aren't going to go after Beltran. That inherently means they'll settle for Borchard? I wasn't aware that those were the only 2 options. I'll bet the likes of JD Drew & jermaine Dye would be surprised at that too. That ignores the fact that the Sox have been rumored to be interested in Beltran and the only quote from the team on the subject doesn't really say anything one way or another.

Finally - there's a lot of "man, people have turned on Maggs pretty quickly". What's more the case is that people recognize that right now all circumstantial evidence points towards Maggs being imapcted by his injury at least in 05 if not beyond. That's just not a risk that people want to take when there are other options available that can actually improve the team more in terms of performance and resources used.

:thumbsup:

I'm ssang, and I'm still an IDIOT!
10-22-2004, 04:19 PM
Fitting of the original post. "Your Cubs fan friend tells you they're going to sign Beltran" because he read it in the paper and that is deserving of a "well the Six suck and can't/won't do anything to improve the club"????

Every offseason KW has been GM has been active, whether or not all his deals have been consummated or not. If you wish to ignore all of that and the 3-years-straight payroll increase the Sox have made and every thing else, then you'd better be willing to look in the mirror to assess your own intelligence before you start calling others out.

:cleo
"I see the Sox doing nothing"


Intelligent posts are worthy of intelligent responses. Unfortunately, your posts in this thread do not fall under that category.
You are nuts if you think KW is even an average GM. He can't judge talent, he has made some of the worst trades I've ever seen, he's always hinting about payroll problems YET he is the one who handcuffed the team with bad salaries (Valentin, Konerko, etc), he doesn't know how to put together a team(the Sox are sooooo one dimensional it's sickening), and he has a mssaive ego that disgusts me. His arrogance is so undeserved that I laugh at the man when he speaks. And anyone who defends him by saying he has passion and REALLy wants to win....you're an idiot. Name me a GM in any sport that doesn't want to win! And his so called "passion" just makes him look like a fool the majority of the time. KW sucks. WAKE UP!

MRKARNO
10-22-2004, 04:34 PM
Minimal payoll bumps are nothing. Almost all teams have a higher payroll from year to year. They need to make a statement and quit settling for middle of road status. That is all I'm saying.

I'm pretty sure the payroll went up at LEAST 10 million bet. 2003 and 2004 while salaries around the league were falling in general as many teams cut payroll. Garcia and Contreras don't exactly play for free you know.....

Hangar18
10-22-2004, 04:46 PM
The Sox with Hurt and Maggs healthy all season would have had a very good shot at being there. Do you dispute that?
YES, tells you just How Important they were to the team. But even if
they stayed healthy, the Bullpen was surviving with Smoke & Mirrors
and was due to Implode, just like it did from midseason to the end.
You need a Very Strong Bullpen to get to the World Series, as the Twins
and Astros will tell you (save for brad lidge). The role of Mike Jackson
was ably played by Dan Miceli of the Astros. We wouldve been Exposed
as Frauds come the post season.
:reinsy "HELLOOOO??? DOES EVERYONE FORGET ABOUT
ALL THE MONEY WE SAVED in the Bullpen? SHeesh .....conveniently
forgot about that didnt we?"

Flight #24
10-22-2004, 04:51 PM
YES, tells you just How Important they were to the team. But even if
they stayed healthy, the Bullpen was surviving with Smoke & Mirrors
and was due to Implode, just like it did from midseason to the end.
You need a Very Strong Bullpen to get to the World Series, as the Twins
and Astros will tell you (save for brad lidge). The role of Mike Jackson
was ably played by Dan Miceli of the Astros. We wouldve been Exposed
as Frauds come the post season.
Except that you have the domino effect of the injury as well. If Frank & Maggs are healthy, you don't have to trade for Everett, leaving some chips to deal for bullpen help (or a 5th starter). You also may well have seen some moves where the Sox took on a higher salaried pitcher for low-level prospects.

Mickster
10-22-2004, 04:53 PM
YES, tells you just How Important they were to the team. But even if
they stayed healthy, the Bullpen was surviving with Smoke & Mirrors
and was due to Implode, just like it did from midseason to the end.
You need a Very Strong Bullpen to get to the World Series, as the Twins
and Astros will tell you (save for brad lidge). The role of Mike Jackson
was ably played by Dan Miceli of the Astros. We wouldve been Exposed
as Frauds come the post season.
:reinsy "HELLOOOO??? DOES EVERYONE FORGET ABOUT
ALL THE MONEY WE SAVED in the Bullpen? SHeesh .....conveniently
forgot about that didnt we?"Had Frank and Maggs been healthy, I'm certain that he would not have been shopping for Delgado or Larry Walker at the break and instead would have addressed the bullpen. It's easy to look at the season in hindsight, Hangar.

Justafan
10-22-2004, 04:54 PM
You also may well have seen some moves where the Sox took on a higher salaried pitcher for low-level prospects.
It's usually the Sox trading(*cough* Ray Durham)high salary players for low level stiffs.

Mickster
10-22-2004, 04:56 PM
It's usually the Sox trading(*cough* Ray Durham)high salary players for low level stiffs.
Durham is being paid 7.5 Million. He was going to leave after the season. Do you honestly think he's worth that? Wow!

Justafan
10-22-2004, 04:58 PM
Durham is being paid 7.5 Million. He was going to leave after the season. Do you honestly think he's worth that? Wow!
He CERTAINLY was when they decided he was not worth it anymore and DUMPED him for a bag of balls. Oh wait, Willie Harris has filled his shoes very well.:rolleyes:

Mickster
10-22-2004, 05:00 PM
He CERTAINLY was when they decided he was not worth it anymore and DUMPED him for a bag of balls. Oh wait, Willie Harris has filled his shoes very well.:rolleyes:
If Durham was on this team today making $7.5M, you would be on the flipside of the arguement stating what a moron KW was to sign him for that kind of money.

Hangar18
10-22-2004, 05:00 PM
Again, KW should have been smart enough to know that Dan was going to go down with an injury. Man, this guy sucks as a GM...
Actually, I remember a couple games last year, Wright being shown in
the dugout between grimacing and trying to hide that he was in some kind
of discomfort. Then he gets hurt. Same thing happened with Cal Eldred
midseason, Rocky Biddle, and Jim Parque. They simply didnt listen to
the signs ...........

Justafan
10-22-2004, 05:01 PM
If Durham was on this team today making $7.5M, you would be on the flipside of the arguement stating what a moron KW was to sign him for that kind of money.
WRONG! Ray is STILL a very valuable player and to let him go because of CHEAPNESS was ridiculous. I would take him right now.

Justafan
10-22-2004, 05:04 PM
By the way, Ray hit .282 with 17 HR and 65 RBI in 120 games. That is very good production for 120 games.

santo=dorf
10-22-2004, 05:04 PM
WRONG! Ray is STILL a very valuable player and to let him go because of CHEAPNESS was ridiculous. I would take him right now.
At $7.5 million??:wired:

Flight #24
10-22-2004, 05:05 PM
He CERTAINLY was when they decided he was not worth it anymore and DUMPED him for a bag of balls. Oh wait, Willie Harris has filled his shoes very well.:rolleyes:
Yes. Definitely. The Sox sorely miss paying 7mil for his 110 & 120 games played Or his defensive "range", which is about equal to his arm-span. The fact that Willie hasn't cut the mustard does not make letting Ray go a bad move.

santo=dorf
10-22-2004, 05:05 PM
By the way, Ray hit .282 with 17 HR and 65 RBI in 120 games. That is very good production for 120 games.
Is it "very good production" for a player making $6.5 million?

Flight #24
10-22-2004, 05:06 PM
WRONG! Ray is STILL a very valuable player and to let him go because of CHEAPNESS was ridiculous. I would take him right now.
As long as you don't mind taking him and letting go someone like Lee, Konerko, etc.

Justafan
10-22-2004, 05:08 PM
Is it "very good production" for a player making $6.5 million?Not when they have a pathetic OBP and whiff every at bat MR.Valentin:cool:

Flight #24
10-22-2004, 05:12 PM
Not when they have a pathetic OBP and whiff every at bat MR.Valentin:cool:Ummm... Valentin not being a good deal doesn't make Durham a good deal. At least Jose can field pretty well, whereas Ray was almost made into an OF/DH., except he couldnt hit well enough for those positions.

Justafan
10-22-2004, 05:14 PM
Ummm... Valentin not being a good deal doesn't make Durham a good deal. At least Jose can field pretty well, whereas Ray was almost made into an OF/DH., except he couldnt hit well enough for those positions.
Yeah, he is so good that the Sox can't get him out of town soon enough. As long as Robbie Alomar and Harris are still around things are good.:rolleyes:

santo=dorf
10-22-2004, 05:15 PM
Not when they have a pathetic OBP and whiff every at bat MR.Valentin:cool:
Actually, he made $5 million, and he doesn't have a player's option for $7 million for next season like Ray.

I just love how when you make a point about a player and when someone counteracts, you'll change the player's identity.

I'll save you time: JOE CREDE SUCKS!!! KW NEEDS TO TRADE HIM, BUT ONLY TRADE HIM IF IT'S FOR SOMETHING GOOD!!!!
:whatever:

Justafan
10-22-2004, 05:17 PM
Actually, he made $5 million, and he doesn't have a player's option for $7 million for next season like Ray.

I just love how when you make a point about a player and when someone counteracts, you'll change the player's identity.

I'll save you time: JOE CREDE SUCKS!!! KW NEEDS TO TRADE HIM, BUT ONLY TRADE HIM IF IT'S FOR SOMETHING GOOD!!!!
:whatever:
No, things are fine. Lets stay status quo and see what happens. Give me a break already.:gulp:

Flight #24
10-22-2004, 05:17 PM
Yeah, he is so good that the Sox can't get him out of town soon enough. As long as Robbie Alomar and Harris are still around things are good.:rolleyes:
They want him out because of his fielding? Nope, it's because his bat's slipped, whic I dont' dispute. Ray's bat's still good, but he can't field his position worth a crap. plus, he makes 50% more $$$.

In any case, even if Jose was the worst value in the history of baseball, it wouldn't make signing Ray to a 7mil/yr, multiyear deal a good thing.

Flight #24
10-22-2004, 05:19 PM
No, things are fine. Lets stay status quo and see what happens. Give me a break already.:gulp:
I'm sorry, is anyone saying that? Just because we don't want Ray at 7mil doens't mean that we want Jose at 5. Or Willie. Pointing out other players that are bad doesn't really support your claim at all.

santo=dorf
10-22-2004, 05:19 PM
Yeah, he is so good that the Sox can't get him out of town soon enough. As long as Robbie Alomar and Harris are still around things are good.:rolleyes:
LOL!!!
There you go again....

You've gone from bitching about the Sox trading high-paid players for stiffs, to defending Durham's production by bringing up Valentin's stats, and now you are responing to someone defending Jose by bringing up Robbie and Harris. :rolleyes:

shocking!

Justafan
10-22-2004, 05:22 PM
LOL!!!
There you go again....

You've gone from bitching about the Sox trading high-paid players for stiffs, to defending Durham's production by bringing up Valentin's stats, and now you are responing to someone defending Jose by bringing up Robbie and Harris. :rolleyes:

shocking!
Read a little. THOSE are the players the Sox have replaced Durham with, no? Enlighten me some more.:?:

Flight #24
10-22-2004, 05:25 PM
Read a little. THOSE are the players the Sox have replaced Durham with, no? Enlighten me some more.:?:
Let me try again.

Just because the Sox didn't get good replacements doesn't mean that signign Ray to a big $$$ deal would have been a good idea.

You want to argue that they should have gotten better repalcements, fine. But if you want to say they should have kept Ray, you'd better start looking at who you wanted to let go to do that.

santo=dorf
10-22-2004, 05:31 PM
Read a little. THOSE are the players the Sox have replaced Durham with, no? Enlighten me some more.:?:
The Sox signed Valentin to replace Durham? :kukoo: :whistle:

Randar68
10-22-2004, 06:42 PM
Read a little. THOSE are the players the Sox have replaced Durham with, no? Enlighten me some more.:?:
And YOU questioned my intelligence on the first page of this thread...

After 9 pages or whatever we're at, the comedy of that is even greater now!

Thanks for the Friday laugh and keep making yourself look like a dumbass by posting in this thread. At least tomorrow I'll be able to come back and get another great laugh at the deflecting and circular logic (though the word "logic" is barely applicable to ANY of your posts)...

:dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll:

Mohoney
10-22-2004, 06:53 PM
Yeah, he said Grilli looked good and would be in the mix for the 5th starter. He also said he wants to get another pitcher, and that "you know me, I'd rather go get a top level guy". There are also numerous reports that Garland's being viewed as the $5, so if Grilli's in the mix....guess what - he & jon may well be fighting it out.
As long as a real SP is acquired via FREE AGENCY, I have no problem with this at all. In fact, if the White Sox were to come out and say that a guy like Jon Garland isn't guaranteed a damn thing, let alone a spot in the rotation, it could work wonders for this team. If guys like Munoz and Bajenaru work harder than Cotts and Adkins, give them a chance, too.

It would finally show that mediocrity will not be tolerated.

I actually might not mind Grilli as a 5th starter, as long as Contreras and Garland are not 3 and 4.

idseer
10-22-2004, 07:11 PM
Let me try again.

Just because the Sox didn't get good replacements doesn't mean that signign Ray to a big $$$ deal would have been a good idea.

You want to argue that they should have gotten better repalcements, fine. But if you want to say they should have kept Ray, you'd better start looking at who you wanted to let go to do that.
i always felt durham was one of the most over-rated sox players. his numbers look good from a certain angle but i recall he added a whole bunch of dumb to his game. another guy who priced himself off the team.

CubKilla
10-23-2004, 12:14 PM
i always felt durham was one of the most over-rated sox players. his numbers look good from a certain angle but i recall he added a whole bunch of dumb to his game. another guy who priced himself off the team.
Actually, letting Ray "Willie Mays Hayes" Durham walk wasn't actually a move that I was against. It was the fact that KW didn't bother to get jack for him that bothered me.

soxwon
10-23-2004, 03:16 PM
Rocky, the point is that the these teams are going to do whatever it takes to win. I suppose Patterson could move to left field if they sign Beltran. It just seems that the Sox will do nothing signifigant(AGAIN) and we can all listen to all of the other teams sign whatever they need.
THE cubs should seriously rebuild who are they kidding?

THEY WONT MAKE THE PLAYOFFS!!!!
they had their chance last year.

REbuild with young players.

SOXSINCE'70
10-23-2004, 03:59 PM
I'm very interested to see what's going to happen this off-season. It seem like (at least to me) that JR is finally loosing up the purse strings a little bit more.

:reinsy
"Loosen the purse strings?!?!? What the Hell are you talking
about?? You think Carl Pavano is cheap?? Pay $9.00 for a
beer like they do in Yankmee Stadium and i'll reconsider.
I've said it once and i'll say it again:you'll get the same
old crap and like it.Crede,Borchard,Harris,Uribe,swinging for
3 run homers with no one on base,get used to it.This is how I
run this organization,dammit!!"

FightingBillini
10-23-2004, 07:44 PM
You are nuts if you think KW is even an average GM. He can't judge talent, he has made some of the worst trades I've ever seen, he's always hinting about payroll problems YET he is the one who handcuffed the team with bad salaries (Valentin, Konerko, etc), he doesn't know how to put together a team(the Sox are sooooo one dimensional it's sickening), and he has a mssaive ego that disgusts me. His arrogance is so undeserved that I laugh at the man when he speaks. And anyone who defends him by saying he has passion and REALLy wants to win....you're an idiot. Name me a GM in any sport that doesn't want to win! And his so called "passion" just makes him look like a fool the majority of the time. KW sucks. WAKE UP!
You are one of many people who wrongly says that Konerko has a bad contract. People, listen slowly: HE........IS.......GOOD. He put together a total year. He didnt have the slumps like he has in his career this last year. He is solid defensively. He is one of the top power men in baseball. TWO american league players hit more home runs than him. If he was a free agent today, he would be in line to make over $10 mil. If you think you can get as much productivity elsewhere for his price, you are nuts.

gosox41
10-24-2004, 09:19 AM
You are one of many people who wrongly says that Konerko has a bad contract. People, listen slowly: HE........IS.......GOOD. He put together a total year. He didnt have the slumps like he has in his career this last year. He is solid defensively. He is one of the top power men in baseball. TWO american league players hit more home runs than him. If he was a free agent today, he would be in line to make over $10 mil. If you think you can get as much productivity elsewhere for his price, you are nuts.
First, this is PK's first year in which he didn't have a major slump for an extended period of time. I attribute this more to good luck then anything else.

Second, while PK did have a good year there are guys who had a higher OPS who make less money:

Travis Hafner
David Ortiz
Melvin Mora
Mark Teixeira
Carlos Guillen
Durazo
Rowand

These are all guys who made less then $10 mil. in the AL who had better years. The list gets longer if you want to adjust for ballpark.

I wish you were the GM of a team so KW can trade PK to you for your #2 starter and a couple of prospects.


Bob

FightingBillini
10-24-2004, 11:03 AM
First, this is PK's first year in which he didn't have a major slump for an extended period of time. I attribute this more to good luck then anything else.

Second, while PK did have a good year there are guys who had a higher OPS who make less money:

Travis Hafner
David Ortiz
Melvin Mora
Mark Teixeira
Carlos Guillen
Durazo
Rowand

These are all guys who made less then $10 mil. in the AL who had better years. The list gets longer if you want to adjust for ballpark.

I wish you were the GM of a team so KW can trade PK to you for your #2 starter and a couple of prospects.


Bob
OK Mr. Moneyball. If having a high OPS is the biggest measure of a player, then I guess those guys are better than Konerko. As for Ortiz, they signed him before he became the MVP candidate he is. At $7.5mil the next two years, I would say he is a bargain.

kittle42
10-24-2004, 01:02 PM
THE cubs should seriously rebuild who are they kidding?

THEY WONT MAKE THE PLAYOFFS!!!!
they had their chance last year.

REbuild with young players.
Ridiculous.

Zambrano, Wood, Prior

Lee, Ramirez, Patterson, Barrett

Seems like a very solid young core to me.

Brian26
10-24-2004, 01:14 PM
Ridiculous.

Zambrano, Wood, Prior

Lee, Ramirez, Patterson, Barrett

Seems like a very solid young core to me.
Walton, Dwight Smith, Grace, Berryhill.

Maddux, Mitch Williams, Bielecki.

**** happens. :bandance:

gosox41
10-25-2004, 11:39 AM
OK Mr. Moneyball. If having a high OPS is the biggest measure of a player, then I guess those guys are better than Konerko. As for Ortiz, they signed him before he became the MVP candidate he is. At $7.5mil the next two years, I would say he is a bargain.
Ortiz is a bargain compared to PK. He has better numbers and makes less money.

How else would you measure a player? Is it fair to judge a guy who finally had his first breakout season while hitting about 30 of his HR's in a home run haven? PK's OPS is .825. I'd bet he's more likely to revert to his career average then go up from here, especially if he's traded. PK's best year is still worse then Frank's worst year (not counting 2001 when he played 27 games). Frank is also a much better bargain then PK.


Bob

Palehose13
10-25-2004, 11:53 AM
So....the whole point of this thread is lost to me.

The offseason hasn't even officially started and it has already been determined that it will be awful? Wow. I don't think so. I think KW has ideas about changing the make up of this team and will be fairly busy this offseason.