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bartmanisgod
10-22-2004, 03:16 AM
I don't know if this was mentioned, but Bruce Levine reported today on ESPN 1000 that the White Sox were going to offer Tim Raines the First Base/Baserunning Coach job
:bandance: :bandance: :bandance: :bandance:

HOORAY FOR MORE STOLEN BASES...... AND COCAINE!!!

Hangar18
10-22-2004, 10:30 AM
This move was done to get our minds off of Magglio Ordonez ......

Mickster
10-22-2004, 10:32 AM
This move was done to get our minds off of Magglio Ordonez ......
But you're too smart for that. Joke is on them. :D:

Uncle_Patrick
10-22-2004, 10:34 AM
This move was done to get our minds off of Magglio Ordonez ......I'm not sure if most Sox fans hold Tim Raines in the same regard as Magglio Ordonez. Now, if you told me that they announced that Carlton Fisk was coming aboard as coach, I might be more inclined to believe that theory.

jabrch
10-22-2004, 10:39 AM
I'm not sure if most Sox fans hold Tim Raines in the same regard as Magglio Ordonez. Now, if you told me that they announced that Carlton Fisk was coming aboard as couch, I might be more inclined to believe that theory.
At the rate Maggs reputation is slipping amongst the fans, by the team he leaves to go to the Mets, he will be held in the same regard as David Wells, not Rock Raines.

Mickster
10-22-2004, 10:40 AM
I'm not sure if most Sox fans hold Tim Raines in the same regard as Magglio Ordonez. Now, if you told me that they announced that Carlton Fisk was coming aboard as couch, I might be more inclined to believe that theory.
If Carlton came back as a couch, I'd be pretty sad. :cool:

Uncle_Patrick
10-22-2004, 11:42 AM
Whoops.

SOXSINCE'70
10-22-2004, 11:59 AM
I don't know if this was mentioned, but Bruce Levine reported today on ESPN 1000 that the White Sox were going to offer Tim Raines the First Base/Baserunning Coach job
:bandance: :bandance: :bandance: :bandance:

HOORAY FOR MORE STOLEN BASES...... AND COCAINE!!!
This is our FA outfielder acquisition.That'll make 'em
forget Maggs. :D: :D: :D: :D:

I_Liked_Manuel
10-22-2004, 12:41 PM
why cant they bring the one dog back? he would have been able to teach carlos how to swing at intentional balls in order to keep a hitting streak alive.

steff
10-22-2004, 01:51 PM
This move was done to get our minds off of Magglio Ordonez ......
What about Maggs.. the fact that he lied to his employer.. and to this day continues to not return their calls in an effort to assess his health..?

Quality guy.. I want 10 of him on my roster! :rolleyes:

steff
10-22-2004, 01:52 PM
I don't know if this was mentioned, but Bruce Levine reported today on ESPN 1000 that the White Sox were going to offer Tim Raines the First Base/Baserunning Coach job

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=41138

HebrewHammer
10-22-2004, 02:05 PM
:KW

"We've been looking at our options as far as the leadoff situation and when you have an opportunity to add a player like Tim Raines, a true White Sox Grinder, that's a move you have to make."

MRKARNO
10-22-2004, 04:17 PM
What about Maggs.. the fact that he lied to his employer.. and to this day continues to not return their calls in an effort to assess his health..?

Quality guy.. I want 10 of him on my roster! :rolleyes:

I totally agree with this sentiment. The White Sox organization can only do so much when Maggs is running off to Vienna for surgery of which he won't tell them the details, when he hire the agent most hostile to the organization while not even turning in the change of agent papers and when they won't let them inspect him when they really should have the right to. The organization has given Maggs just about everything he's got and he should show some organizational loyalty. We've even offered a 70 million dollar contract over five years and he declined it! I wouldnt give him half of that now based on what I think I know about his health situation were I KW. The organization has treated this situation properly for the most part and Maggs has been a little piece of crap as far as I'm concerned. It's time to part ways with Magglio.

steff
10-22-2004, 06:17 PM
I totally agree with this sentiment. The White Sox organization can only do so much when Maggs is running off to Vienna for surgery of which he won't tell them the details, when he hire the agent most hostile to the organization while not even turning in the change of agent papers and when they won't let them inspect him when they really should have the right to. The organization has given Maggs just about everything he's got and he should show some organizational loyalty. We've even offered a 70 million dollar contract over five years and he declined it! I wouldnt give him half of that now based on what I think I know about his health situation were I KW. The organization has treated this situation properly for the most part and Maggs has been a little piece of crap as far as I'm concerned. It's time to part ways with Magglio.

I don't even care that he lied.. errr.. didn't tell them about the surgery. He is still their property at this moment.. and his defiance in not letting their doctors check him out right now.. while he is still under contract with the Sox.. is disgusting. To be honest.. if I'm the Sox I'm reading that contract with a magnifying glass looking for something along the lines of breech and I'd be ready to sue Magg's rear end if this situation turns into them not being able to check him out and make a legit offer if that's their intentions.

Of course.. Henry will now rush in and say..

"THAT'S IT!! The Sox are going to use THIS as a way to say they tried when THEY DIDN'T!!" :rolleyes:

batmanZoSo
10-22-2004, 07:34 PM
This move was done to get our minds off of Magglio Ordonez ......

Yep. Lose a player, hire a former player to be a coach.

Hangar18
10-23-2004, 01:23 PM
I don't even care that he lied.. errr.. didn't tell them about the surgery. He is still their property at this moment.. and his defiance in not letting their doctors check him out right now.. while he is still under contract with the Sox.. is disgusting. To be honest.. if I'm the Sox I'm reading that contract with a magnifying glass looking for something along the lines of breech and I'd be ready to sue Magg's rear end if this situation turns into them not being able to check him out and make a legit offer if that's their intentions.

Of course.. Henry will now rush in and say..

"THAT'S IT!! The Sox are going to use THIS as a way to say they tried when THEY DIDN'T!!" :rolleyes:
STEFF, did this really happen? Stop using knowledge I dont have, nor anyone else has about this situation, to make me look bad. You love doing it for whatever reason, fine. Im not aware (im sure anyone else here for that matter) of Magglio "lying" about his second surgery. If the SOX dont want to make a big deal about it..........What does that tell you?
I know someone that is good friends with a "source" in the SOX front office,
and just the other day, for the 2nd time, told me they were glad he
was hurt, not because they didnt like him, but because it meant they wouldnt have to pay him that big contract, and knowing the fans would be
upset, and they could "blow the team up". I tend to believe that, as the SOX havent shown me otherwise. I believe, the SOX werent serious
about resigning Magglio, Magglio thought he could get more $$$$$$$ then
elsewhere, then he got hurt. Reinsdorf wins. Jerry WONT sign Beltran.
He wont. He'll just keep that money. Now your gonna say "what about that offer he rejected?" Well what about it? maybe you can shed more lite on this....did he reject it because it wasnt made a year earlier?

steff
10-23-2004, 01:34 PM
STEFF, did this really happen? Stop using knowledge I dont have, nor anyone else has about this situation, to make me look bad. You love doing it for whatever reason, fine. Im not aware (im sure anyone else here for that matter) of Magglio "lying" about his second surgery. If the SOX dont want to make a big deal about it..........What does that tell you?
I know someone that is good friends with a "source" in the SOX front office,
and just the other day, for the 2nd time, told me they were glad he
was hurt, not because they didnt like him, but because it meant they wouldnt have to pay him that big contract, and knowing the fans would be
upset, and they could "blow the team up". I tend to believe that, as the SOX havent shown me otherwise. I believe, the SOX werent serious
about resigning Magglio, Magglio thought he could get more $$$$$$$ then
elsewhere, then he got hurt. Reinsdorf wins. Jerry WONT sign Beltran.
He wont. He'll just keep that money. Now your gonna say "what about that offer he rejected?" Well what about it? maybe you can shed more lite on this....did he reject it because it wasnt made a year earlier?

Yes, it really happened Henry. Open the newspaper. He had surgery without the Sox knowing, and has since refused to return their calls. And I question your source 100%. From several investors, Jerry, and Kenny as well as other players, with my own ears I have heard differently and it wasn't in a situation to just have words heard. You believe anything negative. Because that's what you are. Sad..
As for the offer.. open up the papers.. even better ask your source :rolleyes: . The Sox first offered Maggs a deal last year and he said he wanted more (years and money). They offered him more this year. He refused both of them.

Maggs will get what he deserves. Karma is funny like that.

Hangar18
10-23-2004, 01:35 PM
You believe anything negative. Because that's what you are. Sad..


Maggs will get what he deserves. Karma is funny like that.
Whatever Steff ......

steff
10-23-2004, 01:42 PM
Whatever Steff ......
It's not "whatever" Henry.. it is what it is. Find me 5 positive comments you've made about the Sox and anyone working for them over the past 3 years...

Don't bother.. cause you can't.

You spend your days and nights counting newspaper articles, stalking people in bars, start fights with fans of other teams, stealing other teams items from bar walls, etc, etc... It's sad.

Why are you even a fan...? All you do is complain. Why do you bother with something that obviously causes you such heartache..?

Hangar18
10-23-2004, 01:43 PM
Yes, it really happened Henry. Open the newspaper. He had surgery without the Sox knowing, and has since refused to return their calls. And I question your source 100%. From several investors, Jerry, and Kenny as well as other players, with my own ears I have heard differently and it wasn't in a situation to just have words heard. You believe anything negative. Because that's what you are. Sad..
As for the offer.. open up the papers.. even better ask your source :rolleyes: . The Sox first offered Maggs a deal last year and he said he wanted more (years and money). They offered him more this year. He refused both of them.

Maggs will get what he deserves. Karma is funny like that.

Steff, I'll bet you we dont sign Beltran with the "magglio money".


:reinsy

" Yeah Steff! Tell Him! Tired of this Hangar 88 or whatever his name
is coming down on me day after day. Hes Too Negative. Acts like
weve Never been to the World Series ....SHEESH! Memo to Hangar.
WE WERE JUST IN THE WORLD SERIES IN 1959! Hello??!!! Besides,
Hangar, you begged me to bring #30 back, and I just did. Wheres
the Credit here? "

Hangar18
10-23-2004, 01:48 PM
It's not "whatever" Henry.. it is what it is. Find me 5 positive comments you've made about the Sox and anyone working for them over the past 3 years...

Don't bother.. cause you can't.

You spend your days and nights counting newspaper articles, stalking people in bars, start fights with fans of other teams, stealing other teams items from bar walls, etc, etc... It's sad.

Why are you even a fan...? All you do is complain. Why do you bother with something that obviously causes you such heartache..?I have made positive comments about the SOX. you just dont WANT to
pay attention.
You prefer to follow me around on threads and rip anything I say against
this organization. If I dont count the newspaper articles, who will?
You? You have a more Elitist view of being a SOX fan, great.
Do I rip on YOU for that? Dont bother answering, cuz I dont.
Your still a SOX fan to me.
You hang out with the players. Awesome.
You rub elbows with the front office, Cool.
Do I make fun of YOU for all of this? No.
Keep it to yourself, just because your satisfied with the team, dont
tell me how to feel as a "fan". Im Not. I make my feelings known.
The Only thing SAD is you constantly harping on my views, when others feel the same way .......Like im the only one dissatisfied with the Commissioner Jerry Reinsdorf

steff
10-23-2004, 01:52 PM
Steff, I'll bet you we dont sign Beltran with the "magglio money".


:reinsy

" Yeah Steff! Tell Him! Tired of this Hangar 88 or whatever his name
is coming down on me day after day. Hes Too Negative. Acts like
weve Never been to the World Series ....SHEESH! Memo to Hangar.
WE WERE JUST IN THE WORLD SERIES IN 1959! Hello??!!! Besides,
Hangar, you begged me to bring #30 back, and I just did. Wheres
the Credit here? "

No bet. We're not.

And you're starting to act like an ass. Soon you'll alienate all the friends you've made over the past few years.

Hangar18
10-23-2004, 01:55 PM
No bet. We're not.

And you're starting to act like an ass. Soon you'll alienate all the friends you've made over the past few years.
Im not the one calling people names just because your version of my being
a Fan differs from yours. Again, I dont come down on you for that.

steff
10-23-2004, 02:00 PM
I have made positive comments about the SOX. you just dont WANT to pay attention. You prefer to follow me around on threads and rip anything I say against this organization. If I dont count the newspaper articles, who will? You? You have a more Elitist view of being a SOX fan, great. You hang out with the players. Awesome. Keep it to yourself, just because your satisfied with the team, dont tell me how to feel as a "fan". Im Not. I make my feelings known. The Only thing SAD is you constantly harping on my views, when others feel the same way .......

Where are they Henry...? And I don't rip what you say.. I ask you to prove it. Which you can't. You run around posting bs. Hell yea I'm going to call you on it.

Who will count the articles.. ? I guess you will. No way in hell I'm doing it. I have a life.

Of course others feel the same way. I feel the same way. The difference is that the "others" aren't bordering on OCD at the amount of articles written, or always resorting to a conspiracy theory about how Jerry is blowing his nose with $100 bills that should be used to sign players..

State your case with some facts and not, in my opinion, borderline slanderous comments about the owners and you might get other reactions.

And don't kid yourself Henry.. while I may be the only one to call you out.. many, many others feel the same way I do.

steff
10-23-2004, 02:01 PM
Im not the one calling people names just because your version of my being
a Fan differs from yours. Again, I dont come down on you for that.

I didn't call you an ass. I said you're acting like one.

MRKARNO
10-23-2004, 02:11 PM
And don't kid yourself Henry.. while I may be the only one to call you out.. many, many others feel the same way I do.

I agree with you steff. It's ok to dislike the ownership, but it's another to just make ignorant statements which have no factual basis just for the purpose of inciting dislike for the ownership. Has the ownership group done some crappy stuff to the fanbase over the past 20 years? Sure. They definately have not been the best owners they could possibly be, but the fact remains that they are getting better lately and we should commend them instead of blasting them for raising the payroll exponentially since the 2000 season. Many people would like to ignore this because the team has not won an exponentially larger amount of games as a result, but that's not ownership's fault, it's the fault of the players themselves. It has been said that baseball fans are the least likely to blame players for the failures of the team and this is totally true. Baseball fans are quick to blame management, owners, coaching staff, etc. but they are reluctant to criticize the players themselves.

The reason that many people are upset at the ownership is because they want to see the fans come out first before they go out and dramtically increase payroll. It's just a matter of not wanting to take a huge risk and lose large sums of money if the team underperforms. This is a valid reason to be upset, but just making crap up about the ownership group is just that, crap.

Hangar18
10-23-2004, 02:11 PM
Who will count the articles.. ? I guess you will. No way in hell I'm doing it. I have a life.

Of course others feel the same way. I feel the same way. The difference is that the "others" aren't bordering on OCD at the amount of articles written, or always resorting to a conspiracy theory about how Jerry is blowing his nose with $100 bills that should be used to sign players..

State your case with some facts and not, in my opinion, borderline slanderous comments about the owners and you might get other reactions.

And don't kid yourself Henry.. while I may be the only one to call you out.. many, many others feel the same way I do.
Steff, your getting ridiculous. I never accused JR of having a drug problem, or otherwise doing someting illicit with his money. However, I do truly
believe, that he is fine to JUST GET BY, if you catch my drift. How can I prove the White Sox Finances, when these guys have been cooking the books? Weve had about 4 windows of opportunity, where if we'd spent the money to get over the top, we couldve been in the WS. We didnt.
What started this whole "discussion", was the fact that I said "This move was meant to get our minds off of Magglio" as in .........he Brought Back #30
(used to be Raines number)
But, by your standards, I didnt "state-case-with-facts", I got bashed by you again. That wasnt slanderous. It was comical I thought (teal).
Steff, I will make comments from now on.....only with stating the facts,
if as you say, Im "offending" people with my "views".
Here is one statement I will make, and its based on opinion.
I dont believe Jerry, when he says he wants to win ....at any cost.
Bull. He wants to get by. Is it fact? This has been debated on and on
here ........

steff
10-23-2004, 02:19 PM
Talk about ridiculous... I never said you accused him of having a drug problem :?:

As for the rest of your post.. accusing them of cooking the books.. that is slanderous, and you have nothing but your paranoia to base that comment on.

And I didn't slam you for the initial start to this thread. I made an off the cuff comment about Maggs lying to his employer..

This is getting just stupid. You apparently can't, or are purposely not, following along and making stupid comments in reply.. so I'm done.

I'm sure there's a sports section lying around somewhere for you to go count anyway.

steff
10-23-2004, 02:22 PM
I agree with you steff. It's ok to dislike the ownership, but it's another to just make ignorant statements which have no factual basis just for the purpose of inciting dislike for the ownership. Has the ownership group done some crappy stuff to the fanbase over the past 20 years? Sure. They definately have not been the best owners they could possibly be, but the fact remains that they are getting better lately and we should commend them instead of blasting them for raising the payroll exponentially since the 2000 season. Many people would like to ignore this because the team has not won an exponentially larger amount of games as a result, but that's not ownership's fault, it's the fault of the players themselves. It has been said that baseball fans are the least likely to blame players for the failures of the team and this is totally true. Baseball fans are quick to blame management, owners, coaching staff, etc. but they are reluctant to criticize the players themselves.

The reason that many people are upset at the ownership is because they want to see the fans come out first before they go out and dramtically increase payroll. It's just a matter of not wanting to take a huge risk and lose large sums of money if the team underperforms. This is a valid reason to be upset, but just making crap up about the ownership group is just that, crap.

That just about sums it up...

Prepare for the wrath... :rolleyes:

Hangar18
10-23-2004, 02:26 PM
and Steff, Im glad you have a "life", and it prevents you from counting
news articles. But as I said before, counting the articles was part of a bigger
project. A project showing us and anyone willing to read it, the fact
that the other team was getting 2 to 3 times the coverage of our team
for the last few years, most undeserved. My "statement", was that
this nonsense over the course of a few years, is Inevitably going to HURT the Sox, and their fanbase. We now know this to be "fact". Having a baseball discussion 2,000 miles from home, with a guy who hasnt been to Chicago or Comiskey since the 1960's and living in southern california, and hearing him tell
me hes heard its "really bad" near the ballpark, and commenting on the "fans" behavior, and the violent incidents, tells me just how far this Media thing
has gotten. YOu might say who cares, just ignore it? well, lump that with all of the rotten stuff pulled by the owners and Uncle Jerry himself and thats maybe why were only seeing 12 to 20,000 a nite for a game, while the other team gets Lauded and Kudos for 40K every nite. This media
thing has hurt the SOX in way more ways than we think. Ignoring it
just made it worse im afraid.

If we were getting 40K a nite, maybe we'd have already traded for Beltran,
and were discussing Game 1 World series lineups instead of me defending
my comment on why Tim Raines was brought here. Im Sad that you think
im a nerd for keeping track of that, but hey, im just a fan trying to do
my part. It got attention finally by some media types this year .....
am I glad I did it? Am I glad I tore down the little cubby logos
at the bar this spring? heck yeah, I hang out there, I dont want it
turning into a cub bar. Guess what, the logos never came back.
and for a while, a SOX flag hung outside. maybe we wont take the bs anymore.
We are Good Fans. We deserve better. a Mediocre 2005 team isnt
what we deserve.

Hangar18
10-23-2004, 02:34 PM
As for the rest of your post.. accusing them of cooking the books.. that is slanderous, and you have nothing but your paranoia to base that comment on.

This is getting just stupid.

I'm sure there's a sports section lying around somewhere for you to go count anyway.
Steff, everyone in the Media has accused MLB of LYING about their profits.
So you say because I agree with it .........Im Paranoid?

munchman33
10-23-2004, 02:44 PM
Steff, everyone in the Media has accused MLB of LYING about their profits.
So you say because I agree with it .........Im Paranoid?
And the media is so trustworthy....

Hangar you contradict yourself too much. You talk about all these media conspiracies, but when it suits you best you use the media as a piece of evidence that should be taken as fact.

Hangar18
10-23-2004, 02:49 PM
And the media is so trustworthy....

Hangar you contradict yourself too much. You talk about all these media conspiracies, but when it suits you best you use the media as a piece of evidence that should be taken as fact.
Doesnt baseball still have a policy of NOT letting anyone know what
their real numbers are? I didnt start that conspiracy, weve talked about
it here for a while now.
Ok, what exactly happened with the Milwaukee Brewers? was there
something shady Books-wise up there? I cant remember what happened
that forced Wendy Selig to abdicate ........

TornLabrum
10-23-2004, 03:05 PM
I agree with you steff. It's ok to dislike the ownership, but it's another to just make ignorant statements which have no factual basis just for the purpose of inciting dislike for the ownership. Has the ownership group done some crappy stuff to the fanbase over the past 20 years? Sure. They definately have not been the best owners they could possibly be, but the fact remains that they are getting better lately and we should commend them instead of blasting them for raising the payroll exponentially since the 2000 season. Many people would like to ignore this because the team has not won an exponentially larger amount of games as a result, but that's not ownership's fault, it's the fault of the players themselves. It has been said that baseball fans are the least likely to blame players for the failures of the team and this is totally true. Baseball fans are quick to blame management, owners, coaching staff, etc. but they are reluctant to criticize the players themselves.

The reason that many people are upset at the ownership is because they want to see the fans come out first before they go out and dramtically increase payroll. It's just a matter of not wanting to take a huge risk and lose large sums of money if the team underperforms. This is a valid reason to be upset, but just making crap up about the ownership group is just that, crap.
I took a couple of classes this summer on special education in the regular classroom. One of the things they emphasized for dealing with undesirable behavior by students was that you positively reinforce any small amount of behavioral progress a student makes.

The expected result is that they take baby steps in the direction of the desired behavior. You can expect setbacks, of course, but you can't expect miracles.

Maybe that's what we should be looking at here. Perhaps when Uncle Jer and KW make moves that we like we should praise that behavior rather than dwelling on all of the negatives. Maybe in 60-70 years, they will learn to act the way we'd like them to.

TornLabrum
10-23-2004, 03:08 PM
Talk about ridiculous... I never said you accused him of having a drug problem :?:

As for the rest of your post.. accusing them of cooking the books.. that is slanderous, and you have nothing but your paranoia to base that comment on.

And I didn't slam you for the initial start to this thread. I made an off the cuff comment about Maggs lying to his employer..

This is getting just stupid. You apparently can't, or are purposely not, following along and making stupid comments in reply.. so I'm done.

I'm sure there's a sports section lying around somewhere for you to go count anyway.
When Bud Selig testified before a Congressional committee, the members of Congress who sat on the committee came this close (||) to accusing him of committing perjury when he showed discussed with them MLB's version of the books.

Hangar isn't the only person who has accused them of cooking the books. Any number of writers and authors have made similar statements.

Rex Hudler
10-23-2004, 05:06 PM
Seems to me this whole argument is stupid because of its original premise. Who cares if the White Sox try to "show they tried"? Magglio, injury or not is not worth 20% of a team's payroll. Signing him to a huge long term deal would have only made it harder for the Sox to fill other needs.


One aside...... the idea that the Sox will sign Beltran or anyone big with the "magglio money" is misguided from the beginning. Much of that money has already been spent on the likes of Freddy Garcia, Carl Everett and Jose Contreras. The Sox will spend some money this offseason and I am confident payroll will go up marginally, but there is no nest egg of money from players going away.

gosox41
10-23-2004, 05:17 PM
STEFF, did this really happen? Stop using knowledge I dont have, nor anyone else has about this situation, to make me look bad. You love doing it for whatever reason, fine. Im not aware (im sure anyone else here for that matter) of Magglio "lying" about his second surgery. If the SOX dont want to make a big deal about it..........What does that tell you?
I know someone that is good friends with a "source" in the SOX front office,
and just the other day, for the 2nd time, told me they were glad he
was hurt, not because they didnt like him, but because it meant they wouldnt have to pay him that big contract, and knowing the fans would be
upset, and they could "blow the team up". I tend to believe that, as the SOX havent shown me otherwise. I believe, the SOX werent serious
about resigning Magglio, Magglio thought he could get more $$$$$$$ then
elsewhere, then he got hurt. Reinsdorf wins. Jerry WONT sign Beltran.
He wont. He'll just keep that money. Now your gonna say "what about that offer he rejected?" Well what about it? maybe you can shed more lite on this....did he reject it because it wasnt made a year earlier?
I read in the paper the other day that Magglio had surgery in Vienna because the Sox recommended the surgeon out there.

Has anyone else seen or heard this?

Also, we can tell if JR/KW wants to blow up the team by the moves they make this offseason.


Bob

mikef1331
10-23-2004, 05:59 PM
Soooo... I hear Tim Raines is going to be the new first base coach.
It's hard to tell what this thread is really about with all of this off topic bickering going on. Let it go guys... have a few of these :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: and relax.

infohawk
10-24-2004, 12:22 AM
:KW

"We've been looking at our options as far as the leadoff situation and when you have an opportunity to add a player like Tim Raines, a true White Sox Grinder, that's a move you have to make."That's funny!!! Made me laugh!:tongue:

Brian26
10-24-2004, 12:59 PM
Talk about ridiculous... I never said you accused him of having a drug problem :?:
Ah, I think I figured out what happened here. Steff made a comment about "JR blowing his nose with 100 dollar bills". That could be taken a couple of ways, I guess. Maybe we're still all thinking of Steff's comments about "Rock" Raines earlier, right? Now at least I know where the nickname "rock" came from. :D:

Hangar18
10-25-2004, 09:37 AM
Soooo... I hear Tim Raines is going to be the new first base coach.
It's hard to tell what this thread is really about with all of this off topic bickering going on. Let it go guys... have a few of these :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: and relax.
Everything is all good now in wsi land. Steff and I made up :cool: .

munchman33
10-25-2004, 11:58 AM
I read in the paper the other day that Magglio had surgery in Vienna because the Sox recommended the surgeon out there.

Has anyone else seen or heard this?

Also, we can tell if JR/KW wants to blow up the team by the moves they make this offseason.


Bob
Absolutely not true. In fact, when KW was interviewed on Comcast Spots Net, he was flat out asked about this. He was very diplomatic, but mentioned that he informed Magglio of the best surgeons the White Sox had at their disposal, including James Andrews, and yet Magglio still went another route.

Flight #24
10-25-2004, 12:22 PM
Also, we can tell if JR/KW wants to blow up the team by the moves they make this offseason.


Bob
This is true, but based on pretty much any report that you read, there aren't any plans to reduce payroll. Even the ones that discuss trading Koney or Lee are talking about that move in the context of either freeing up $$$ to sign some FAs or because those 2 are among their tradeable assets to acquire talent at other positions. Neither indicates any desire to "blow it up" and rebuild.

And the "they've done it before" argument is old & tired. When the team has sucked, yes - they've rebuilt and traded bigger contracts before the guys hit FA. But when the team has had promise, they've generally maintained or added payroll (including the past few years). Well, that is except in the world where an '04 payroll of $65mil is not greater than an '03 payroll of $55mil.

Lip Man 1
10-25-2004, 12:59 PM
Flight:

Which apparently still isn't big enough to get the job done is it? They can't beat the Twins, how are they supposed to beat the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels?

Just wondering...

Lip

Flight #24
10-25-2004, 01:06 PM
Flight:

Which apparently still isn't big enough to get the job done is it? They can't beat the Twins, how are they supposed to beat the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels?

Just wondering...

LipNo disputing that, just the "conventional wisdom" that 1)they won't spend $$$ (or as more recently put, any pursuit of FAs is done as window-dressing, not as a serious attempt to improve the club), and 2)they're looking to reduce payroll in this offseason (per the comments on "blowing it up").

It's not the results I'm arguing on, it's the attribution to a root cause that IMO isn't supported by fact.

wdelaney72
10-25-2004, 01:17 PM
Hangar and Steff,

By any chance are the two of you married? Your posts sounded like a typical night with Mrs. WDelaney72.

Ol' No. 2
10-25-2004, 01:19 PM
Flight:

Which apparently still isn't big enough to get the job done is it? They can't beat the Twins, how are they supposed to beat the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels?

Just wondering...

LipI just love hearing this argument. "The Sox need to spend a lot more money to beat the Twins"...who, as everyone knows, spend a lot less money than the Sox. If spending money mattered so much, how is it that the Twins have won 3 straight? How is it that the Cubs, with the highest payroll in their division, finished 3rd? It ought to be pretty obvious that spending more money is NOT the key to success.

steff
10-25-2004, 01:23 PM
Hangar and Steff,

By any chance are the two of you married? Your posts sounded like a typical night with Mrs. WDelaney72.


We sure act like it sometimes don't we...??

But no... Henry is way to negative for me. He'd be toothless after a week!! :D:

JKryl
10-25-2004, 01:48 PM
Yep. Lose a player, hire a former player to be a coach.
Look at the bright side, Raines can still probably hit better than Borchard. Anyone check out his stats in the Mexican league lately?

Update of Joe Borchard in the Mexican league

MAZATLAN Individual Statistics Thru Games of: 10/23/04

Borchard, Joe,OF

AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB SLG OBP E
.172 8 29 6 5 1 0 2 4 2 9 0 .414 .250 2

JKryl
10-25-2004, 01:49 PM
I just love hearing this argument. "The Sox need to spend a lot more money to beat the Twins"...who, as everyone knows, spend a lot less money than the Sox. If spending money mattered so much, how is it that the Twins have won 3 straight? How is it that the Cubs, with the highest payroll in their division, finished 3rd? It ought to be pretty obvious that spending more money is NOT the key to success.
Right, money isn't the key. The key is having a GM that can evaluate talent.:D:

Flight #24
10-25-2004, 02:12 PM
Look at the bright side, Raines can still probably hit better than Borchard. Anyone check out his stats in the Mexican league lately?

Update of Joe Borchard in the Mexican league

MAZATLAN Individual Statistics Thru Games of: 10/23/04

Borchard, Joe,OF

AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB SLG OBP E
.172 8 29 6 5 1 0 2 4 2 9 0 .414 .250 2
Maybe we should be looking for SPs there!!!

gosox41
10-25-2004, 02:39 PM
I just love hearing this argument. "The Sox need to spend a lot more money to beat the Twins"...who, as everyone knows, spend a lot less money than the Sox. If spending money mattered so much, how is it that the Twins have won 3 straight? How is it that the Cubs, with the highest payroll in their division, finished 3rd? It ought to be pretty obvious that spending more money is NOT the key to success.
You're 100% right.

But I'll tell you what you'll hear back from others:

"Spending money dramatically increases the odds of winning."

For all those who say that, how come the Yankees spent 50% more on payroll then Boston and aren't in the Series? How come this is the 4th year in a row the Yankees aren't going to win the Series when they clearly outspend anyone and everyone?


Bob

JoseCanseco6969
10-25-2004, 04:21 PM
Hangar and Steff,

By any chance are the two of you married? Your posts sounded like a typical night with Mrs. WDelaney72.
This thread was fun to read, keep it up you two!

Lip Man 1
10-25-2004, 06:25 PM
Bob..... please, you know better. I know you do.

Just THIS YEAR for example 7 of the 8 teams were big spenders and made significant off season moves.

PLEASE don't force me to print Seling quote from April 2002 breaking down the numbers (which were something like 110 -5) in games won by teams in the top quarter of payroll spending in the post season from 1997-2001 for the tenth time!

If I have to I will. You can't argue with the numbers.

For every fluke Marlins there are a dozen Yankee, Red Sox, Cardinals, Indians (in the 90's), Angels and Braves... big spenders who (strangly enough) seem to get in the playoffs a hell of a lot more then non spenders (like the White Sox, Royals, Padres, Reds, Pirates and so forth)

Lip

Hangar18
10-25-2004, 06:25 PM
You're 100% right.

But I'll tell you what you'll hear back from others:

"Spending money dramatically increases the odds of winning."

For all those who say that, how come the Yankees spent 50% more on payroll then Boston and aren't in the Series? How come this is the 4th year in a row the Yankees aren't going to win the Series when they clearly outspend anyone and everyone?


Bob
A little luck ........ they wouldve been in the Series. Truth is, Only 4 teams make the Playoffs in the AL, and from there, youve got a 1 in 4 chance of making it all the way. Better than NOT spending the $$$$$$$$ and having NO CHANCE AT ALL ...........
The other thing, The Ex-Cub Factor. Yankees had too many excubs on their roster, so they were asking for it Bob

Ol' No. 2
10-25-2004, 08:40 PM
Bob..... please, you know better. I know you do.

Just THIS YEAR for example 7 of the 8 teams were big spenders and made significant off season moves.

PLEASE don't force me to print Seling quote from April 2002 breaking down the numbers (which were something like 110 -5) in games won by teams in the top quarter of payroll spending in the post season from 1997-2001 for the tenth time!

If I have to I will. You can't argue with the numbers.

For every fluke Marlins there are a dozen Yankee, Red Sox, Cardinals, Indians (in the 90's), Angels and Braves... big spenders who (strangly enough) seem to get in the playoffs a hell of a lot more then non spenders (like the White Sox, Royals, Padres, Reds, Pirates and so forth)

LipHere's another quote for you:

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics. - Benjamin Disraeli

Selig can quote all the numbers he wants, but it doesn't prove what you think it does. I'll give you just two of many reasons:

1. Selig's statement was right after the Yankees had a run of appearing in 4 consecutive WS, winning three of them. They heavily skewed the statistics. It does not logically follow that for a mid-level team, increasing payroll will significantly improve your chances. Look at the NL playoff teams this year. How many of the top spenders made it? If money was so important, how did the Twins manage to win 3 in a row?

2. I can quote statistics of my own (and a lot more statistically meaningful) that show that increasing payroll by 10% leads to less than one additional win and only a few percentage points in the odds of winning a division. If you're the Yankees, and you can spend 100% more than the average, you've made a significant improvement, but for more realistic increases, the effect is small. Of the total variation in W-L percentage, only 20% is due to payroll. The other 80% is due to other factors. Yes, money matters. But other stuff matters a whole lot more.

Rex Hudler
10-25-2004, 09:18 PM
Bob..... please, you know better. I know you do.

Just THIS YEAR for example 7 of the 8 teams were big spenders and made significant off season moves.

PLEASE don't force me to print Seling quote from April 2002 breaking down the numbers (which were something like 110 -5) in games won by teams in the top quarter of payroll spending in the post season from 1997-2001 for the tenth time!

If I have to I will. You can't argue with the numbers.

For every fluke Marlins there are a dozen Yankee, Red Sox, Cardinals, Indians (in the 90's), Angels and Braves... big spenders who (strangly enough) seem to get in the playoffs a hell of a lot more then non spenders (like the White Sox, Royals, Padres, Reds, Pirates and so forth)

Lip
A higher payroll certainly increases the odds of a team winning, if the money is spent wisely. A higher payroll is definitely not a requirement for winning, but it helps overcome mistakes and injuries. If a guy you were counting on sucks, it doesn't hurt so bad with a higher payroll because you likely have more depth to cover for him (see Giambi). For every Yankees and Red Sox team, I give you the Orioles, Phillies, Mets, etc. Many teams with high payrolls don't do squat, so adding payroll doesn't guarantee you squat. See the 2001 White Sox.

But teams can and do with with lesser payrolls if they handle their own business well and get a little lucky. Unfortunately, not everyone can be the Yankees. I sure as hell would hate the day that every teams spends $200 million on payroll. Can you say $12 hot dogs? $75 bleacher tickets?

I'd prefer to focus on what a team can do with its resources rather than bitch about fantasy level payroll numbers that can't be supported by current revenue levels. But that's just me.

Tragg
10-26-2004, 01:01 AM
I'm still pissed at Raines for pointlessly trying to steal 2nd late in game 6 against Toronto when we were down 3 or 4. Naturally, he didn't make it.

Iguana775
10-26-2004, 07:01 PM
I don't know if this was mentioned, but Bruce Levine reported today on ESPN 1000 that the White Sox were going to offer Tim Raines the First Base/Baserunning Coach job
:bandance: :bandance: :bandance: :bandance:

HOORAY FOR MORE STOLEN BASES...... AND COCAINE!!!
freaking awesome!

Hangar18
10-26-2004, 07:26 PM
[QUOTE=Ol' No. 2]Here's another quote for you:

If money was so important, how did the Twins manage to win 3 in a row?

QUOTE]

If someone wouldve told me the Twinks were gonna win 3 division titles in a row, I wouldve said:
"HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, the Only way the Twinks are winning 3 in a row is if the White Sox Purposely DONT MAKE THEMSELVES BETTER in the offseason 3 yrs in a row".

Little did I know Jerry Reinsdorfs Backward Business Policies would allow him
to do just that. The Twins had a very good team sure, but it would also take the SOX making themselves weaker, going into the season with Gaping holes in the lineup, Replacing Good Players with Hollow Replacements, and some Good Luck (or bad luck if your the sox) to make 3 division titles a reality. The SOX will be getting a Christmas Card from the Twins for sure

Brian26
10-26-2004, 10:27 PM
I'm still pissed at Raines for pointlessly trying to steal 2nd late in game 6 against Toronto when we were down 3 or 4. Naturally, he didn't make it.
Tragg, you're a real fan. My biggest memory of that game is Bo Jackson and George Bell completely tanking.

Foulke29
10-27-2004, 11:06 AM
Is Tim Raines HOF material?

What do you guys think?

Hangar18
10-27-2004, 11:48 AM
Tragg, you're a real fan. My biggest memory of that game is George Bell completely tanking.
George Bell was absolutely BRUTAL that series. Absent. Not there.
But the best was when Bo said that the SOX "We're playing 1 man short".
Excellent! The SOX THEN did something Highly Unusual for them
that offseason. They went into the Offseason and FILLED A HOLE THEY HAD

Brian26
10-27-2004, 01:15 PM
The SOX THEN did something Highly Unusual for themthat offseason. They went into the Offseason and FILLED A HOLE THEY HAD

Julio Franco.

Some may argue the Sox went out and filled a gaping hole.

Others may argue that Franco was one, in a long line, of Ron Schueler "sign an injured player to a one-year contract with some incentives and hope you strike gold" players (i.e. Darrin Jackson, Ellis Burks, Dave Steib, Kruk, Sabo, Cordero, Sierra, the list goes on and on and on). Franco turned out as gold.

Foulke29
10-27-2004, 04:54 PM
Julio Franco.

Some may argue the Sox went out and filled a gaping hole.

Others may argue that Franco was one, in a long line, of Ron Schueler "sign an injured player to a one-year contract with some incentives and hope you strike gold" players (i.e. Darrin Jackson, Ellis Burks, Dave Steib, Kruk, Sabo, Cordero, Sierra, the list goes on and on and on). Franco turned out as gold.
How did Stieb look in a White Sox uniform? I was 'away' then.