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Lip Man 1
10-21-2004, 12:25 PM
Again with thanks to Bob Vanderberg and the Chicago Tribune!

Date: Monday, December 11, 2000

By Phil Rogers



RODRIGUEZ TALKS HEAT UP FOR RANGERS, MARINERS

`IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD,' SAYS SOX GM

The Alex Rodriguez ship is sailing. The White Sox's only chance of being allowed aboard is if agent Scott Boras somehow leaves the winter meetings without striking a deal.

That appears unlikely. Boras, who declined the Sox's request for an audience with Rodriguez, spent Sunday in intense negotiations likely either to send the free agent shortstop to the Texas Rangers or back to the Seattle Mariners. The price tag could exceed $240 million.

The Atlanta Braves also remained in meetings with Boras. But it was doubtful that they would pay more than $22 million a year for Rodriguez only months after setting a club standard with Chipper Jones' deal for $15 million a year.

White Sox General Manager Kenny Williams observed the proceedings from the sidelines, believing Boras had misled him into preparing an offer he never planned to consider. He was tempted to lash out at Boras and officially withdraw from the process but bit his tongue hoping Boras would not accept an offer elsewhere.

"It doesn't look good," Williams said. "We have been denied a request to sit down and meet them face to face. The reason I was given by Scott Boras was we came into the door a little bit at the end negotiations. Scott and I have a difference of opinion on how that came about. ... I am a little perplexed. I did express that to Scott [Saturday] night. We will not be meeting with him unless he doesn't consummate a deal here. If he does not, we will probably meet with him next week."

Williams said the White Sox were close to abandoning their pursuit of Rodriguez about a week ago after Boras told them he had received a substantially bigger offer than they were prepared to make. "Then he spent 45 minutes talking me into making an offer," Williams said. "I went back to the drawing board to gather up our resources to be a player in this thing."

Williams came to the winter meetings prepared to deliver the offer but was under the impression that Rodriguez would be on hand. Under instructions from Sox Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf, Williams has declined to make the offer to Boras without his client in the meeting.

"For us it's not just about putting dollars on the table," Williams said. "It's about presenting the entire picture, selling the city of Chicago, selling our wonderful fans. We had some people in our office spend a lot of time putting together a package. It's unfortunate we were not able to present it."

According to Williams, the Sox offer was considerably larger than the numbers that have been speculated about in the media. The Tribune has put the offer at $144 million ($18 million a year for eight years). But a source close to the negotiations said Sunday that Reinsdorf was willing to go as high as $195 million.

"We stated that we would not go above $20 million a year or a $200-million contract," Williams said. "But the various reports I have seen were not accurate. I think that did us more harm than good."

It is not clear why the White Sox did not arrange to meet Rodriguez before arriving in Dallas. Atlanta, Colorado, Texas, the Mariners and possibly some other teams held preliminary discussions with Rodriguez and Boras.

"Some people prefer to be the first one in on things and some people prefer to be the last one in on things," Williams said. "What we wanted to do was make sure the landscape was such that we definitely had a shot. We were not going to waste his time, not going to waste our time, not going to mislead our fans."

As late as Saturday afternoon, the White Sox believed they would get to make their case to Rodriguez. Boras said he was paring the bidding down from eight teams to four teams. "Before I found out we would not be meeting with him, I thought we were one of the four finalists," Williams said.

While Boras said he was cutting the field from eight to four, the White Sox are the only team that has been identified as being eliminated. Boras said he was continuing to negotiate with four teams but was known to be talking only with Texas, Atlanta and Seattle.

One rumor circulated that the Florida Marlins had emerged as the mystery team. But it appears the Marlins' only true interest is in free agent catcher Charles Johnson, another Boras client. "I wish it was true, but it's not," Florida GM Dave Dombrowski said about Rodriguez. "I don't know where it started."

Rangers General Manager Doug Melvin said he met with Boras for three hours Sunday and was meeting with him again late Sunday night. The Braves met with Boras Sunday but it was unclear if they would try to improve their offer.

The White Sox wait.

"I still see [the Sox] as the best fit for Alex," Williams said. "He's going to be a wealthy man after this, regardless. I thought [the decision] would go to the character of the man. I thought he would be desirous of being in the best situation."

gosox41
10-21-2004, 12:33 PM
Again with thanks to Bob Vanderberg and the Chicago Tribune!

Date: Monday, December 11, 2000

By Phil Rogers





RODRIGUEZ TALKS HEAT UP FOR RANGERS, MARINERS



`IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD,' SAYS SOX GM

The Alex Rodriguez ship is sailing. The White Sox's only chance of being allowed aboard is if agent Scott Boras somehow leaves the winter meetings without striking a deal.

That appears unlikely. Boras, who declined the Sox's request for an audience with Rodriguez, spent Sunday in intense negotiations likely either to send the free agent shortstop to the Texas Rangers or back to the Seattle Mariners. The price tag could exceed $240 million.

The Atlanta Braves also remained in meetings with Boras. But it was doubtful that they would pay more than $22 million a year for Rodriguez only months after setting a club standard with Chipper Jones' deal for $15 million a year.

White Sox General Manager Kenny Williams observed the proceedings from the sidelines, believing Boras had misled him into preparing an offer he never planned to consider. He was tempted to lash out at Boras and officially withdraw from the process but bit his tongue hoping Boras would not accept an offer elsewhere.

"It doesn't look good," Williams said. "We have been denied a request to sit down and meet them face to face. The reason I was given by Scott Boras was we came into the door a little bit at the end negotiations. Scott and I have a difference of opinion on how that came about. ... I am a little perplexed. I did express that to Scott [Saturday] night. We will not be meeting with him unless he doesn't consummate a deal here. If he does not, we will probably meet with him next week."

Williams said the White Sox were close to abandoning their pursuit of Rodriguez about a week ago after Boras told them he had received a substantially bigger offer than they were prepared to make. "Then he spent 45 minutes talking me into making an offer," Williams said. "I went back to the drawing board to gather up our resources to be a player in this thing."

Williams came to the winter meetings prepared to deliver the offer but was under the impression that Rodriguez would be on hand. Under instructions from Sox Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf, Williams has declined to make the offer to Boras without his client in the meeting.

"For us it's not just about putting dollars on the table," Williams said. "It's about presenting the entire picture, selling the city of Chicago, selling our wonderful fans. We had some people in our office spend a lot of time putting together a package. It's unfortunate we were not able to present it."

According to Williams, the Sox offer was considerably larger than the numbers that have been speculated about in the media. The Tribune has put the offer at $144 million ($18 million a year for eight years). But a source close to the negotiations said Sunday that Reinsdorf was willing to go as high as $195 million.

"We stated that we would not go above $20 million a year or a $200-million contract," Williams said. "But the various reports I have seen were not accurate. I think that did us more harm than good."

It is not clear why the White Sox did not arrange to meet Rodriguez before arriving in Dallas. Atlanta, Colorado, Texas, the Mariners and possibly some other teams held preliminary discussions with Rodriguez and Boras.

"Some people prefer to be the first one in on things and some people prefer to be the last one in on things," Williams said. "What we wanted to do was make sure the landscape was such that we definitely had a shot. We were not going to waste his time, not going to waste our time, not going to mislead our fans."

As late as Saturday afternoon, the White Sox believed they would get to make their case to Rodriguez. Boras said he was paring the bidding down from eight teams to four teams. "Before I found out we would not be meeting with him, I thought we were one of the four finalists," Williams said.

While Boras said he was cutting the field from eight to four, the White Sox are the only team that has been identified as being eliminated. Boras said he was continuing to negotiate with four teams but was known to be talking only with Texas, Atlanta and Seattle.

One rumor circulated that the Florida Marlins had emerged as the mystery team. But it appears the Marlins' only true interest is in free agent catcher Charles Johnson, another Boras client. "I wish it was true, but it's not," Florida GM Dave Dombrowski said about Rodriguez. "I don't know where it started."

Rangers General Manager Doug Melvin said he met with Boras for three hours Sunday and was meeting with him again late Sunday night. The Braves met with Boras Sunday but it was unclear if they would try to improve their offer.

The White Sox wait.

"I still see [the Sox] as the best fit for Alex," Williams said. "He's going to be a wealthy man after this, regardless. I thought [the decision] would go to the character of the man. I thought he would be desirous of being in the best situation."


The article clealy states that KW wanted to make an offer to Boras but wanted A-Rod present. This negates all the comments about how KW/JR wanted to meet with A-Rod alone.

Looks to me like the Sox arrived late to the party, but all the other teams were allowed to meet with A-Rod and Boras at some point, so this negates the theory that JR is the only one who wanted to meet with A-Rod.


Thanks for posting this Lip, it clarifies a lot.


Bob

Foulke29
10-21-2004, 12:34 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but what's the point of posting these threads on A-Rod?

steff
10-21-2004, 12:40 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but what's the point of posting these threads on A-Rod?

Bitching and moaning, and bitching and moaning...

Who will win the race... :rolleyes:

Baby Fisk
10-21-2004, 12:41 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but what's the point of posting these threads on A-Rod?:KW
"Fool me once...shame on...shame on you. Fool me...uh...you can't get fooled again!"

Lip Man 1
10-21-2004, 12:44 PM
Folks:

For a reason why I'm doing this please see the comment before A-Rod / Sox Stuff I.

And Bob, I'm not done yet. I know what I remember reading in the Sun Times and hearing on One On One Sports about JR's request, confirmed by A-Rod to meet with him without Boras present.

Lip

Mickster
10-21-2004, 12:47 PM
Folks:

For a reson why I'm doing this please see the comment before A-Rod / Sox Stuff I.

And Bob, I'm not done yet. I know what I remember reading in the Sun Times and hearing on One On One Sports about JR's request, confirmed by A-Rod to meet with him without Boras present.

LipLip,

Meeting with Arod w/o Boras present doesn't mean negotiating without Boras present.

I will refer you to my prior post in a different thread on the same subject:

If I were an owner who was willing to plunk down $195M over 10 years, I would certainly not be opposed to meeting the potential player in private to see what kind of person he is. There are plenty of good athletes who command big money contracts who are not good "people". Alan Iverson immediately comes to mind. Although many will say this his play on the court merits his pay, his actions off the court certainly don't.

There are plenty of things that we can villify JR for but until I see some evidence, this is not one of them.

Flight #24
10-21-2004, 12:49 PM
Williams said the White Sox were close to abandoning their pursuit of Rodriguez about a week ago after Boras told them he had received a substantially bigger offer than they were prepared to make. "Then he spent 45 minutes talking me into making an offer," Williams said. "I went back to the drawing board to gather up our resources to be a player in this thing."

Williams came to the winter meetings prepared to deliver the offer but was under the impression that Rodriguez would be on hand. Under instructions from Sox Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf, Williams has declined to make the offer to Boras without his client in the meeting.

"For us it's not just about putting dollars on the table," Williams said. "It's about presenting the entire picture, selling the city of Chicago, selling our wonderful fans. We had some people in our office spend a lot of time putting together a package. It's unfortunate we were not able to present it."

According to Williams, the Sox offer was considerably larger than the numbers that have been speculated about in the media. The Tribune has put the offer at $144 million ($18 million a year for eight years). But a source close to the negotiations said Sunday that Reinsdorf was willing to go as high as $195 million.


Well well well, it seems like not only were the Sox not trying to meet without Boras, but they just wanted ARod to be there so that hey could sell him on the non-monetary advantages of Chicago. It also seems like they were somewhat mislead by Boras and prepared an offer that was well within the range of consideration (this was pre-Hicks upping the ante).

Kind of puts an end to the "JR wasn't serious, made a below market offer and wanted to negotiate without the agent" nonsense."

Flight #24
10-21-2004, 12:52 PM
Could the 3 ARod threads be merged? I think the discussion following the quotes is going to be common so it doesn't seem to amke a whole lot of sense to have ti jumping around between threads.

Lip - great stuff, but why not post all the articles/quotes in the same thread so that the discussion can be "contained"?

ma-gaga
10-21-2004, 01:04 PM
These articles are great. I think Reinsdork/KW were trying to get A-Rod to make a verbal commitment to the team without the agent around to 'screw things up'. Or to get a handle on how much money it would take to sign him.

Basically to try and get an edge on their competetors. Boras wouldn't let that happen, and I can understand why. He wasn't "screwing" the White Sox, he was for all intents and purposes "protecting" his client.

:gulp:

Flight #24
10-21-2004, 01:07 PM
These articles are great. I think Reinsdork/KW were trying to get A-Rod to make a verbal commitment to the team without the agent around to 'screw things up'. Or to get a handle on how much money it would take to sign him.

Basically to try and get an edge on their competetors. Boras wouldn't let that happen, and I can understand why. He wasn't "screwing" the White Sox, he was for all intents and purposes "protecting" his client.

:gulp:
Where do you see that? The only comments on the supposd meeting request are that JR told KW not to make an offer unless he got to meet with ARod & Boras. THe other comment is that they wouldn't make a formal offer wihtout meeting ARod first (no mention of Boras not being there). Nowhere does it say that they wanted to meet without Boras or especially that they wanted to negotiate without him.

mdep524
10-21-2004, 01:17 PM
Man, reading this stuff brings back memories. I remember how closely (and anxiously) I followed this pursuit back in 2000.

At the time, the White Sox had a better, younger team on the field, a better farm system, a better city and a bigger market. The only thing Texas had was more money. This is a pretty clear cut case here. I really find it hard to blame JR/KW in this situation. Also, I actually find it cool that JR and KW wanted to meet privately with the man they were considering signing for 10 years. It shows its not just a money thing.

More than all that, I hope all 29 MLB owners review these articles, so they make more intelligent decisions this time around. Boras will be doing the exact same thing with Beltran (and to a much lesser extent, Maggs) this winter, the only difference will be that the Yankees will be involved. Will an owner fail to learn from history and foolishly bid against himself again?

Flight #24
10-21-2004, 01:25 PM
More than all that, I hope all 29 MLB owners review these articles, so they make more intelligent decisions this time around. Boras will be doing the exact same thing with Beltran (and to a much lesser extent, Maggs) this winter, the only difference will be that the Yankees will be involved. Will an owner fail to learn from history and foolishly bid against himself again?
I ccant remember exactly, but I thought MLB established a "clearninghouse" for FA offers, and one of the suspected consequencs was that teams were able to find out (either officially or unofficially) who had made other offers, and possibly what they were. That was bandied about as a reason why the salaries for FAs were getting somewhat depressed last year, IIRC.

I'm sure there are those here who can confirm/deny that or whether it was disbanded.

hitlesswonder
10-21-2004, 02:24 PM
I hope the Sox make some kind of move before the winter meeting, just so the board isn't dedicated to free agent fiascos of the past for 2 more months. I'd find that depressing. My impression at the time is that the Sox weren't serious about their pursuit of Rodriguez, that it was all PR. But that's a result of the media portrayal (columns like Morrisey's), and who knows if that's really how it was. Probably only Sox management. I don't begrudge the Sox not paying Rodriguez what Texas did (that's a lot of money), and maybe they were strung along by Boras, but I just don't like the fact that they looked lame talking about going after him and yet not seeming to get a lot of consideration from Rodriguez (which makes me think Boras thought they weren't serious). Also, if the Sox really were willing to come up with 195 million, why haven't they gone hard after other free agents since then? The payroll has gone up, but to pay Rodriguez and keep some semblance of talent at other positions would have meant raising the payroll much higher than it went. Anyway, it's impossible for me to know how serious they were, so I won't speculate any more than I have.

My impression from other threads on this board were that Williams has said he now didn't think they would be bidding on Beltran (I think that was from the Comcast interview). And that's fine with me. I'd love for Beltran to be in CF, but to outbid the Yankees (especially after last night) is clearly outside the payroll bounds the Sox have set for themselves. I'd much rather have them be honest about that than to go after him with a weak offer.

Randar68
10-21-2004, 03:58 PM
Where do you see that? The only comments on the supposd meeting request are that JR told KW not to make an offer unless he got to meet with ARod & Boras. THe other comment is that they wouldn't make a formal offer wihtout meeting ARod first (no mention of Boras not being there). Nowhere does it say that they wanted to meet without Boras or especially that they wanted to negotiate without him.
BINGO BINGO BINGO.

Lip is off his rocker again with the BS recollections and negative spin. He thinks posting these articles, which, in fact, dispute his hogwash, will somehow lead to us believing that KW/JR were trying to userp Boras in dealing with ARod.

IN FACT, they simply wanted to make the presentation to ARod, Boras or no Boras, didn't matter, they wanted to make a proposal that would without question be met by the audience of ARod himself. Instead, they had Boras YANKING them around the whole time, and if they made the presentation to Boras himself without ARod, it would have mattered even less than it did in the end.

They were willing to go to 195 million! DAMN! After the record Belle deal and the reports on that offer, I am still so confused why people think JR won't sign anyone to a big-money deal...

Lip is wrong again. Tell me something NEW!

Justafan
10-21-2004, 04:04 PM
Lip is off his rocker again with the BS recollections and negative spin. He thinks posting these articles, which, in fact, dispute his hogwash,
!
*****:roflmao:

Flight #24
10-21-2004, 04:09 PM
I hope the Sox make some kind of move before the winter meeting, just so the board isn't dedicated to free agent fiascos of the past for 2 more months. I'd find that depressing. My impression at the time is that the Sox weren't serious about their pursuit of Rodriguez, that it was all PR. But that's a result of the media portrayal (columns like Morrisey's), and who knows if that's really how it was. Probably only Sox management. I don't begrudge the Sox not paying Rodriguez what Texas did (that's a lot of money), and maybe they were strung along by Boras, but I just don't like the fact that they looked lame talking about going after him and yet not seeming to get a lot of consideration from Rodriguez (which makes me think Boras thought they weren't serious). Also, if the Sox really were willing to come up with 195 million, why haven't they gone hard after other free agents since then? The payroll has gone up, but to pay Rodriguez and keep some semblance of talent at other positions would have meant raising the payroll much higher than it went. Anyway, it's impossible for me to know how serious they were, so I won't speculate any more than I have.


You nicely summarize the conventional wisdom, which as is often the case, seems to be unsupported by fact. They wanted to meet ARod before offering a record-level contract (not sure if the Sox offer would have been a record, but it had to be close). That's certainly not unheard of or nefarious. They also likely wanted to make sure that they weren't just used to pump up someone else's offer, which apparently was Bora$'s game plan. They also were ready with an offer that was certainly in the market range, and in fact was higher than the initial bid of the Rangers!!! Yet they weren't serious and only did it for appearances.

As far as why they haven't opened up the vaults since, I think there's a pretty strong argument to be made that ARod is a once-in-a-great-while type of guy. Beltran may be another one, but in terms of marketability, presence, and likely assault on ther record books - ARod is still in his own class. The benefit to a franchise of signing ARod is much greater than that of signing say Kevin Brown or even Albert Pujols. And it's a ton better than signing 2 "regular all-star" type of players.

Mickster
10-21-2004, 04:11 PM
It's all about the money with Arod.... Don't believe me? Look at this! :D:

jabrch
10-21-2004, 04:46 PM
But a source close to the negotiations said Sunday that Reinsdorf was willing to go as high as $195 million.
Cheap Bastard....

I don't care how much Texas offered him, you won't convince me that being willing to go up to 20mm per year for 10 years is CHEAP at all. So he got 22 elsewhere. BFD. I have taken a job for 30% less than another offer for quality of work/life/other issues. 10% or 2mm less per year is not unheard of in MLB ranks, nor is it out of line.

and as far as KW meeting face to face with Alex, there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Again, I don't fault the Sox for that at all.

Some of you just won't stop complaining about JR and KW no matter what they do.

steff
10-21-2004, 04:48 PM
It's all about the money with Arod.... Don't believe me? Look at this! :D:Holy ****!! Why didn't I think of that??? :D:

hitlesswonder
10-21-2004, 04:50 PM
You nicely summarize the conventional wisdom, which as is often the case, seems to be unsupported by fact.
Well, I tried to be honest in admitting I don't know if the Sox were serious or not. If I was/am misinformed, I think it's clearly the fault of the Chicago Tribune:smile: It is definitely true that Sox ownership sometimes will spend money (Belle and unfortunately Navarro). It does baffle me as to why those two were pursued and then not others later on. But in any case the payroll is really mid-level, it's not like they are the Brewers. Thinking about it, it wouldn't be shocking if they were strung along by Boras and got tagged by an antagonistic media because "cheap Sox" is a story that practically writes itself (meaning less work for the reporter). But even if that's the case, I'm just not happy with how inept it made the organization look. Anyway it's all done now, I just hope the Sox make some good decisions this winter.

Lip Man 1
10-21-2004, 05:00 PM
Flight:

I tried combining them but there is a word limit and wasn't able to.

And again folks, I'm not done researching. I remember what I read and felt so strongly about seeing it that I called and got on One On One Sports that day to discuss it with the host because they were talking about the same thing.

It won't be until next week though. I have two football games and stories to write for three papers including the Sacramento Bee in the next 48 hours.

I post regardless of whether or not it proves me correct because if it's the truth then that's all that matters. Unlike some, I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm wrong, but I am not at that stage yet with this particular issue.

Lip

ma-gaga
10-21-2004, 05:57 PM
Where do you see that?
...
Nowhere does it say that they wanted to meet without Boras or especially that they wanted to negotiate without him.I guess I thought I read that somewhere. I can't find it, I must have made it up. Didn't the W.Sox try that with another player/agent?? Or am I confusing them and that with the Braves and Andrew Jones's contract??

It's crappy, but it sounds like Boras setup some ground rules, based on what A-Todd wanted, and the W.Sox got screwed. Sometimes it just doesn't matter how much money you are offering, the player is the one in control...

:gulp:

Flight #24
10-21-2004, 11:13 PM
I guess I thought I read that somewhere. I can't find it, I must have made it up. Didn't the W.Sox try that with another player/agent?? Or am I confusing them and that with the Braves and Andrew Jones's contract??

It's crappy, but it sounds like Boras setup some ground rules, based on what A-Todd wanted, and the W.Sox got screwed. Sometimes it just doesn't matter how much money you are offering, the player is the one in control...

:gulp:
Actually, I think you're remembering the media portrayal, much like the Trib articles Lip posted where the authors state the facts, and somehow arrive at a conclusion that isn't supported by them.

As for the "ground rules", sounds to me like Bora$$ only wanted situations where he could play one team off against another. The Sox weren't going to play that game (kudos to them), so after spending the 45 minutes convincing KW to make an offer, he then used the fact that they were ready to make one against the Rangers and left the Sox out to dry. A major example of how he'll manipulate and lie to teams no matter how unethical it may be. I'm sure his clients love him for it, but I'd also guess that if asked their approval for his methods, that they'd have second thoughts.

jabrch
10-21-2004, 11:13 PM
I guess I thought I read that somewhere. I can't find it, I must have made it up. Didn't the W.Sox try that with another player/agent?? Or am I confusing them and that with the Braves and Andrew Jones's contract??


:gulp:
Aren't you thinking of the Bulls and Horace Grant?

hitlesswonder
10-22-2004, 12:43 AM
Aren't you thinking of the Bulls and Horace Grant?
It may have happened with Grant as well, but the non-signing of Robbie Alomar last year is the most recent story like that I can remember. I admit I've never understood what the big deal was about talking to a player without an agent present. It's not like the player is a 3 year old kid (or an illiterate and gullible Shoeless Joe Jackson). If they don't want to talk without an agent, they can just say so and leave. It's not like Williams is going to tazer someone and push a pen into his limp hand without an agent there to stop them.

Flight #24
10-22-2004, 08:44 AM
It's not like Williams is going to tazer someone and push a pen into his limp hand without an agent there to stop them.
:rolling:

On a more serious note: IMO the Alomar thing was way overblown. Sounds to me like KW approached Robbie to talk about how they wanted him back & talk in generalities about what the Sox were thinking. Then the agent told him he could get more, so they either interpreted KW's moves as underhanded, or just spun that story to give Robbie a convenient out. Of course, they then found out it was a massive miscalculation when he hit the market.

In general, KW seems like a pretty straight shooter. Hard for me to believe that he's running around trying to swindle and trick players into signing deals.

voodoochile
10-22-2004, 09:26 AM
:rolling:

On a more serious note: IMO the Alomar thing was way overblown. Sounds to me like KW approached Robbie to talk about how they wanted him back & talk in generalities about what the Sox were thinking. Then the agent told him he could get more, so they either interpreted KW's moves as underhanded, or just spun that story to give Robbie a convenient out. Of course, they then found out it was a massive miscalculation when he hit the market.

In general, KW seems like a pretty straight shooter. Hard for me to believe that he's running around trying to swindle and trick players into signing deals.
I agree with that in principle, but JR and his minions now have a reputation for trying to negotiate without agents present. That comes across as underhanded. Whether deserved or not, it is on JR, KW, JP and the rest of both Reinsdorf led organizations to change the image or deal with the consequences of having a bad reputation.

You want to be trusted, you have to earn trust and like it or not, these practices are considered untrustworthy. The Sox need to fix that if they want to be major players. It does them no good at all to go into any negotiation with the other side sitting on pins and needles and waiting for the Sox to do something unethical. The slightest slip will be perceived in the worst way even if it is innocent, unintentional and purely a mistake.

BTW, there was NOTHING innocent about the Horace Grant situation. It was underhanded and sneaky and JR then went to the press moaning about how Horace was the unethical one for backing out on a handshake deal. All of this follows from that. JR made his own mess, and he needs to clean it up.

I repeat...

:selljerry

Randar68
10-22-2004, 10:30 AM
I agree with that in principle, but JR and his minions now have a reputation for trying to negotiate without agents present. That comes across as underhanded. Whether deserved or not, it is on JR, KW, JP and the rest of both Reinsdorf led organizations to change the image or deal with the consequences of having a bad reputation.

You want to be trusted, you have to earn trust and like it or not, these practices are considered untrustworthy. The Sox need to fix that if they want to be major players. It does them no good at all to go into any negotiation with the other side sitting on pins and needles and waiting for the Sox to do something unethical. The slightest slip will be perceived in the worst way even if it is innocent, unintentional and purely a mistake.

BTW, there was NOTHING innocent about the Horace Grant situation. It was underhanded and sneaky and JR then went to the press moaning about how Horace was the unethical one for backing out on a handshake deal. All of this follows from that. JR made his own mess, and he needs to clean it up.

I repeat...


You mean, like Bill Wirtz (not best example of good ownership, I know) and Chelios did in the last deal they made? Deals between owners and players when the 2 sides have had a long and trusting or loyal relationship are nothing new. Unfortunately in the Grant case, it blew up because one side changed their mind.

voodoochile
10-22-2004, 11:08 AM
You mean, like Bill Wirtz (not best example of good ownership, I know) and Chelios did in the last deal they made? Deals between owners and players when the 2 sides have had a long and trusting or loyal relationship are nothing new. Unfortunately in the Grant case, it blew up because one side changed their mind.
When a player is coming up on their first Unrestricted FA contract negotiations, you don't try to sign them without their agent present. You aren't honestly comparing a 15 year veteran of the NHL and a perenialy all-star defenseman with a 26 YO potential star who is coming into their first negotiating session are you?

That's a horrid example if so. If the same thing happened to Horace today, it would probably bother him a LOT less, but at the time it was just pure stupidity and arrogance on JR's part to deal with it that way.

I agree, using Wirtz as an example of good ownership is not a good idea either. If that is the company JR is in, it doesn't make him look better.

Flight #24
10-22-2004, 01:00 PM
When a player is coming up on their first Unrestricted FA contract negotiations, you don't try to sign them without their agent present. You aren't honestly comparing a 15 year veteran of the NHL and a perenialy all-star defenseman with a 26 YO potential star who is coming into their first negotiating session are you?

That's a horrid example if so. If the same thing happened to Horace today, it would probably bother him a LOT less, but at the time it was just pure stupidity and arrogance on JR's part to deal with it that way.

I agree, using Wirtz as an example of good ownership is not a good idea either. If that is the company JR is in, it doesn't make him look better.
2 points:

1 - There MAY be 1 incident of this - the Grant situation. There are no others. not exactly a trend or a pattern of doing business. The Arod & Alomar situations are not what they've been portrayed to be. So it's hardly incumbent on the Sox to do anything different, especially when it's not even JR doing anything - it's KW, who if anything is TOO honest.

2 - The Wirtz example is just an example. There are a number of situations where that happens. If you really think JR should say "Well, it's Horace's first contract, so I shouldn't talk to him 1 on 1, if it was his 2d or 3d contract, it would be OK" - that's ludicrous IMO. JR sat down to talk to Horace, no one will ever know what really happened in that room but the 2 of them. Plus, as a very successful businessmen, JR would certainly know that a signed napkin would hardly hold up in a court of law as a contract if contested by the agent.

Wealz
10-22-2004, 01:05 PM
A-Rod swings for the fences a lot. I read on this board all the time about how bad that is.

Lip Man 1
10-23-2004, 11:46 AM
Flight:

Please reread my quote from the book describing in detail what went on between Grant and Uncle Jerry. It's on anothewr thread I think addressed to Mickster.

And I disagree...there have been plenty of judicial rulings made with items written on non traditional things. If the 'napkin' had the terms spelled out and were signed, it's a legal document according to a lawyer friend of mine.

He gave gave a rather unusual example of this. Apparently a few years ago there was a guy who became trapped in his car due to an accident. The guy knew that he didn't have much time so literally he scratched out on the dashboard with his keys, a last will. It was contested in court but upheld as a legal document.

Lip

ma-gaga
10-24-2004, 09:02 PM
but JR and his minions now have a reputation for trying to negotiate without agents present. That comes across as underhanded.
I think that's it. JR has to adjust his tactics a bit. He's got a bad reputation of trying to cheat the system, and he needs to address this. His 'agentless' negotiation should be, "tell your agent I want to resign you for a fair price", and that's it. If he can't do that, he should leave the business.


Reputations can be misleading. But sometimes that's all you have.

Flight #24
10-24-2004, 09:06 PM
I think that's it. JR has to adjust his tactics a bit. He's got a bad reputation of trying to cheat the system, and he needs to address this. His 'agentless' negotiation should be, "tell your agent I want to resign you for a fair price", and that's it. If he can't do that, he should leave the business.


Reputations can be misleading. But sometimes that's all you have.
IMO that's going to basically ensure that you pay higher prices for players. You need to be able to appeal to other factors, especially for your own players in order to keep them of of the market. The ARod situation or a Beltran one doesn't apply since there doesn't appear to have been an attempt to negotiate without the agent, but rather just to make sure it wasn't ONLY the agent.

ChiSox14305635
10-24-2004, 09:48 PM
According to Williams, the Sox offer was considerably larger than the numbers that have been speculated about in the media. The Tribune has put the offer at $144 million ($18 million a year for eight years). But a source close to the negotiations said Sunday that Reinsdorf was willing to go as high as $195 million.

"We stated that we would not go above $20 million a year or a $200-million contract," Williams said. "But the various reports I have seen were not accurate. I think that did us more harm than good."



At least the Sox were willing to pony up the cash. I haven't always agreed with Reinsdorf or KW, but can't fault them for not trying.