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The_Floridian
10-20-2004, 02:10 PM
All right,

So if we lose Maggs, Valentin and Schoenweis that gives us an additional $20 million in payroll. Plus however much we get for the new TV deal, which I would hope would at least cover this year's salary increases.

Would it be possible to sign Jason Kendall, Derek Lowe and, I dunno, Ray Durham, and maybe one more reliever with that money and not break the bank?

Kendall's a terrific catcher, a good team leader, a smart hitter with surprising speed who would do well in a small ball style offense. Durham's speed is down, but he's a smart baserunner who could grab a decent number of steals by picking his spots. Lowe is a question mark, but I'm fine with a ground ball pitcher in The Cell.

That would make the batting order:

Durham
Kendall
Lee
Thomas
Konerko
Everett
Rowand
Crede
Uribe

The rotation would be:

Garcia
Buehrle
Lowe
Contreras
Garland

Is this a dumb idea? A half-dumb idea? A good, but unaffordable idea? Or might this be a real possibility.

Just wondering.

Flight #24
10-20-2004, 02:13 PM
All right,

So if we lose Maggs, Valentin and Schoenweis that gives us an additional $20 million in payroll. Plus however much we get for the new TV deal, which I would hope would at least cover this year's salary increases.

Would it be possible to sign Jason Kendall, Derek Lowe and, I dunno, Ray Durham, and maybe one more reliever with that money and not break the bank?

Kendall's a terrific catcher, a good team leader, a smart hitter with surprising speed who would do well in a small ball style offense. Durham's speed is down, but he's a smart baserunner who could grab a decent number of steals by picking his spots. Lowe is a question mark, but I'm fine with a ground ball pitcher in The Cell.

That would make the batting order:

Durham
Kendall
Lee
Thomas
Konerko
Everett
Rowand
Crede
Uribe

The rotation would be:

Garcia
Buehrle
Lowe
Contreras
Garland

Is this a dumb idea? A half-dumb idea? A good, but unaffordable idea? Or might this be a real possibility.

Just wondering.
I wouldn't call it dumb, but it's unlikely. I suppose if you can get Pittsburgh to eat a chunk of Kendall's deal it could make sense, but for the $$$, I'd rather sign a Vizquel who can play the field a ton better and mentor our young IFs better than Ray ray. He'd run about the same $$$ or less than Ray IMO.

I suppose it's more realistic than signing Beltran or trading Konerko & Crede for Lowell & Pierre tho.

NonetheLoaiza
10-20-2004, 02:23 PM
Too expensive for just those three. If we want to shore up the bullpen a bit and cover the holes at SS and right field, it might not be very feasible. I wouldn't mind having Kendall if he can be had fairly cheap. As far as Durham, I would honestly rather take my chances with Willie and Juan at second that overpaying.

AVG OBP SLG OPS
Willie: .262 / .343 / .323 / .665
Juan: .283 / .327 / .506 / .833

Ray: .282 / .364 / .484 / .848

Ray's offensive output is slightly better, but not at 7 times the salary of both Willie and Juan. Not to mention that Ray only swiped 10 bags out of 14 attempts.

Jjav829
10-20-2004, 02:29 PM
I'd say it is somewhat realistic, but not very likely. The $20 million in added payroll that you projected may be much lower. As has been said many times before, a good chunk of that money will go toward Garcia, Contreras, and the salary increases for guys like Buehrle, Uribe, Shingo, Frank, Konerko, Lee, Marte, Garland, Everett, and Rowand. Factor all that in, and the number is much lower. With whatever payroll increases that JR might authorize, it's not out of the question that we could do something like you mentioned.

Shingotime!!
10-20-2004, 03:12 PM
Considering that Jason Kendall isnt great defensivly, and isnt know to call a great game, i can see our pitchers era's going up as we speak.

munchman33
10-20-2004, 08:42 PM
All right,

So if we lose Maggs, Valentin and Schoenweis that gives us an additional $20 million in payroll.

Wrong. That money has already been spent on Freddy Garcia and Jose Contreras, as well as pay raises to Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee, Aaron Rowand, Mark Buehrle, Juan Uribe, as well as some others.

If anything, we may need to dump existing payroll in order to make any changes.

California Sox
10-20-2004, 09:15 PM
And Kendall is not a free agent. He's signed to the worst contract in MLB. I find it hardly unlikely he'll be in a Sox uni. Personally, I feel the Sox have to consider rebuilding soon. With the loss of Maggs to free agency and the uncertain status of Frank for the beginning of the season, plus the rise of the Tribe and the continued strength of the Twins at major and minor league levels, I feel we can ill afford to continue to overpay chasing a very unlikely result.

For instance, I have little or no enthusiasm for squeezing the last AB's out of Omar Vizquel's brilliant career. (See Alomar, Sandy and Alomar, Roberto).

Bisco Stu
10-21-2004, 12:04 AM
Heard it today during the radio broadcast of the ALCS. Not that funny, nor original, as it centered around the fact Shingo needs an interpreter, but good to hear him get some exposure.

hitlesswonder
10-21-2004, 12:58 AM
And Kendall is not a free agent. He's signed to the worst contract in MLB. I find it hardly unlikely he'll be in a Sox uni. Personally, I feel the Sox have to consider rebuilding soon. With the loss of Maggs to free agency and the uncertain status of Frank for the beginning of the season, plus the rise of the Tribe and the continued strength of the Twins at major and minor league levels, I feel we can ill afford to continue to overpay chasing a very unlikely result.

For instance, I have little or no enthusiasm for squeezing the last AB's out of Omar Vizquel's brilliant career. (See Alomar, Sandy and Alomar, Roberto).
I don't have a link for this, but I recall reading that Kendall can veto any trade and he's only likely to OK going to a west coast team (he's from California I think). That, plus the Sox habitual desire to employ catchers on the cheap, does make it seem unlikely he'd head to Chicago. It's too bad, because I think his bat would be a perfect fit for the Sox at probably their weakest position.

I really don't like the philosophy of rebuilding. To me that means jettisoning virtually all the veterans on your club and then acquiring young cheap players with the hope that most of them will develop into being good at the same time. I don't think the odds of that happening are high foe any team (someone can point out the Marlins, but teams like the Pirates and the Sox themselves show how hard it is). The Sox still have some talent, and aside from Thomas and Takatsu it's not very old. I think they're better off just trying to improve the team. Besides, another prolonged period of lousiness would probably kill whatever share they have left of the the MLB market in Chicago.

I do agree about Vizquel though. He's been great, and was good this year. But who knows how much he has left. Uribe was just about as good this year and costs so little. I'd rather give him the time at SS and see how good he can be. Spend money on a pitcher or catcher...those holes are worse IMO. Also, it just seems wrong to keep acquiring 1990s era Indians.

balke
10-21-2004, 01:21 AM
loaiza's 4 dumped for contreras at 6
Shoen gone for about 2... we'll call it even

Garcia is what? 10 next season?
was Ben 4?

so 14, that's Maggs contract

Jose V. gone at 6

Clee in a trade for pitching 8, say you pay 5 for what you get.

9 mil to spend. Heck, maybe Garland is gone and that's 4 more mil.

If we were lucky, Open up the pocket books for Beltran. :D: let's see some optimism folks. 80 mil team, with a poor infield, and a wicked outfield. Pitching to boot.

The Cheat
10-21-2004, 01:40 AM
:rolleyes:

FightingBillini
10-21-2004, 02:27 AM
Garcia is what? 10 next season?
was Ben 4?
If you are referring to Ben Davis, he made $750,000 this year.

hold2dibber
10-21-2004, 07:40 AM
loaiza's 4 dumped for contreras at 6
Shoen gone for about 2... we'll call it even

Garcia is what? 10 next season?
was Ben 4?

so 14, that's Maggs contract

Jose V. gone at 6

Clee in a trade for pitching 8, say you pay 5 for what you get.

9 mil to spend. Heck, maybe Garland is gone and that's 4 more mil.

If we were lucky, Open up the pocket books for Beltran. :D: let's see some optimism folks. 80 mil team, with a poor infield, and a wicked outfield. Pitching to boot.
As someone else posted a month or two ago, raises due to guys who will be on the roster next year (Everett, Frank, Buehrle, PK, Garland, Shingo, Politte, etc.) total about $10 million.

batmanZoSo
10-21-2004, 08:59 AM
I don't have a link for this, but I recall reading that Kendall can veto any trade and he's only likely to OK going to a west coast team (he's from California I think). That, plus the Sox habitual desire to employ catchers on the cheap, does make it seem unlikely he'd head to Chicago. It's too bad, because I think his bat would be a perfect fit for the Sox at probably their weakest position.

I really don't like the philosophy of rebuilding. To me that means jettisoning virtually all the veterans on your club and then acquiring young cheap players with the hope that most of them will develop into being good at the same time. I don't think the odds of that happening are high foe any team (someone can point out the Marlins, but teams like the Pirates and the Sox themselves show how hard it is). The Sox still have some talent, and aside from Thomas and Takatsu it's not very old. I think they're better off just trying to improve the team. Besides, another prolonged period of lousiness would probably kill whatever share they have left of the the MLB market in Chicago.

I do agree about Vizquel though. He's been great, and was good this year. But who knows how much he has left. Uribe was just about as good this year and costs so little. I'd rather give him the time at SS and see how good he can be. Spend money on a pitcher or catcher...those holes are worse IMO. Also, it just seems wrong to keep acquiring 1990s era Indians.

We're gonna see how good Uribe can be anyway because he's starting no matter what. It depends on what position player we get--second base or shortstop. Vizquel doesn't harm anyone's progress by coming here. And he does have a little left in him. He's definitely still productive. There really isn't anything out there in free agents--ahem, realistic free agents--in the middle infield.

Paulwny
10-21-2004, 10:41 AM
I don't have a link for this, but I recall reading that Kendall can veto any trade and he's only likely to OK going to a west coast team (he's from California I think). Chicago.
.
You are correct. Kendall has said many times that he'd only "OK" a trade to a west coast team.

Flight #24
10-21-2004, 10:59 AM
You are correct. Kendall has said many times that he'd only "OK" a trade to a west coast team.
It's not unheard of for guys on terrible teams to change that tune for a chance to go to a playoff contender (especially when no WC teams are after him). Depending on other moves, the Sox woudl certainly qualify with an order of Kendall-ARow-Frank-CLee-Paulie-Everett-Uribe-Crede-Vizquel and a rotation of Garcia-Buehrle-Contreras-SP-Garland.

Paulwny
10-21-2004, 11:34 AM
It's not unheard of for guys on terrible teams to change that tune for a chance to go to a playoff contender (especially when no WC teams are after him). Depending on other moves, the Sox woudl certainly qualify with an order of Kendall-ARow-Frank-CLee-Paulie-Everett-Uribe-Crede-Vizquel and a rotation of Garcia-Buehrle-Contreras-SP-Garland.
There are plenty of play-off condenders on the west coast who have a better chance then the sox to get beyond the first round. I think he'd agree to a non- west coast team if he gets an extension on his present contract.

Flight #24
10-21-2004, 12:04 PM
There are plenty of play-off condenders on the west coast who have a better chance then the sox to get beyond the first round. I think he'd agree to a non- west coast team if he gets an extension on his present contract.My point was that none of the west coast contenders are reportedly interested in Kendall. So his choices would be to stay in Pittsburgh, or come to Chicago, which would be a contender by adding him.

mweflen
10-21-2004, 12:07 PM
What about Jason Varitek? He's a FA this season, IIRC. That would certainly plug an offensive hole!

hitlesswonder
10-21-2004, 12:27 PM
It's not unheard of for guys on terrible teams to change that tune for a chance to go to a playoff contender (especially when no WC teams are after him). Depending on other moves, the Sox woudl certainly qualify with an order of Kendall-ARow-Frank-CLee-Paulie-Everett-Uribe-Crede-Vizquel and a rotation of Garcia-Buehrle-Contreras-SP-Garland.Well, the Dodgers definitely need a catcher, but I don't know if they are interested in Kendall. I really get the impression that the Sox aren't interested in pursuing a catcher other than Ben Davis, so it likely doesn't matter. I think that would be a mistake, but I'm not the GM and that's probably a good thing.

It sounds to me, just from probably unreliable newspaper stories, like the Sox #1 priority this offseason is Vizquel and then maybe a closer. I'd rather see money go to a SP or C. Flight, I know you like the idea of signing Vizquel, so I'm curious how much you think that will cost. And is he your first choice (among realistic possibilities) as a FA signing?

Flight #24
10-21-2004, 12:32 PM
Well, the Dodgers definitely need a catcher, but I don't know if they are interested in Kendall. I really get the impression that the Sox aren't interested in pursuing a catcher other than Ben Davis, so it likely doesn't matter. I think that would be a mistake, but I'm not the GM and that's probably a good thing.

It sounds to me, just from probably unreliable newspaper stories, like the Sox #1 priority this offseason is Vizquel and then maybe a closer. I'd rather see money go to a SP or C. Flight, I know you like the idea of signing Vizquel, so I'm curious how much you think that will cost. And is he your first choice (among realistic possibilities) as a FA signing?
Whether or not Kendall is a good idea depends on what they're willing to do with payroll. If they're willing to up it 10-20mil and can get Pitt to eat some of the salary, then I'd go for Kendall since I think he adds a ton of what we want in terms of OBP & fundamentals & "grit".

As far as Vizquel, I'd consider him a good risk at about $3mil. The way I see it, it's him or Harris, and while Willies got some tools, I'd rather have Vizquel around to mentor Willie & Juan.

Overall though, I'd agree with most that the priority ought to be pitching. A decent SP and 1-2 decent RPs is key. Welll, that or go get a superstar like Beltran.

johnny_mostil
10-21-2004, 06:39 PM
And Kendall is not a free agent. He's signed to the worst contract in MLB.
Actually, that would be "Chan Ho Park".