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Lip Man 1
10-20-2004, 11:52 AM
This is the first I have read or heard anything about the asking price for Carlos Beltran. It's from Phil Rogers column today (Wednesday) in the Tribune:

"With agent Scott Boras talking about Manny Ramirez money—essentially $20 million a year for eight years, the Astros may have to acknowledge Beltran was only a rental.

The teams that can afford him are the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Dodgers and Cubs. That's about it.

It's debatable whether others at Tribune Co., specifically the ones who crunch payroll numbers for the company team, share this conclusion."

If anybody still thinks the Sox have any chance at this guy please feel free to make your case and how they pull it off.

Lip

Mickster
10-20-2004, 12:00 PM
They were willing to put up $195m over 10 years for Arod.

:duel:

RichFitztightly
10-20-2004, 12:02 PM
I certainly don't think the Sox have a chance at him. I doubt he'll get an 8 year deal though. That's too too much. Especially at $20mil a year. I think owners are finally starting to see the folly of those kind of deals. Hell, even Boston put Manny on waivers just to get his money off the books and nobody wanted him. I'm certain it's going to be less money than he's initially saying, but how much less will be determined by either 1) Stupidity or 2) the owners aren't in as financially dire straits as they would lead us to believe.

EDIT: I'm guessing 6 years 17-18 mil per year.

Lip Man 1
10-20-2004, 12:04 PM
Mickster:

Was that before or after Uncle Jerry attempted to negotiate without Boras present. The same Scott Boras who now (at least for now) 'happens' to be Beltran's agent.

Somehow I don't think he's forgotten about that.

Lip

mdep524
10-20-2004, 12:08 PM
As much as I love Beltran, he is just not worth $20 million for 8 years. You can't fault the Sox for passing that up. As I've said, I'm happy for the guy as he steamrolls through this postseason, but at the same time it is driving his price up artificially high.

Mickster
10-20-2004, 12:12 PM
Mickster:

Was that before or after Uncle Jerry attempted to negotiate without Boras present. The same Scott Boras who now (at least for now) 'happens' to be Beltran's agent.

Somehow I don't think he's forgotten about that.

Lip
Lip,

Was JR attempting to "negotiate" without Boras being present or did he want to meet with Arod privately? I know what you are alluding to and know what Horace Grant has said, for example, but until you can show me that JR actually wanted to hold negotiations with Arod without the presence of his agent, I will take what you say with a grain of salt.

If I were an owner who was willing to plunk down $195M over 10 years, I would certainly not be opposed to meeting the potential player in private to see what kind of person he is. There are plenty of good athletes who command big money contracts who are not good "people". Alan Iverson immediately comes to mind. Although many will say this his play on the court merits his pay, his actions off the court certainly don't.

There are plenty of things that we can villify JR for but until I see some evidence, this is not one of them.

jabrch
10-20-2004, 12:24 PM
We have too man needs to pay 15-20mm for an OF. Rowand did fine in CF. Let's focus on our needs rather than on luxuries. I'd rather the money be spent on a high end SP and a few guys in the pen than on Beltran.

Tekijawa
10-20-2004, 12:27 PM
From what I've heard we're eliminating Half Price nights that should add about 20 Million a year to the bottom line. Now all we have to do is figure out who we are going to throw the money that we used for Maggs and Valentin this year (19 Million) at??? I'm guessing that Renteria and Pavano can be had for that!

Irishsox1
10-20-2004, 12:28 PM
There is only one team that will give Beltran the money that Boras is looking for....Yankees. If he ends up elsewhere, its because the Yankees didn't want him for the money they wanted, his number goes down and he signs with another team. As long as MLB doesn't have a salary cap, MLB will be totally screwed up.

Mickster
10-20-2004, 12:29 PM
We have too man needs to pay 15-20mm for an OF. Rowand did fine in CF. Let's focus on our needs rather than on luxuries. I'd rather the money be spent on a high end SP and a few guys in the pen than on Beltran.
Don't disagree w/ you. But, wouldn't an OF of Lee, Beltran and Rowand sound good? Could we dump PK to help offset the costs of Beltran and still get a #2-3 SP? Could we sign Vizquel, for example, and move Uribe to 2nd for a solid middle infield? It's all possible and it all depends on how creative KW can be this off-season.

kittle42
10-20-2004, 12:32 PM
At that price, let the Yankees have him.

samram
10-20-2004, 12:34 PM
We have too man needs to pay 15-20mm for an OF. Rowand did fine in CF. Let's focus on our needs rather than on luxuries. I'd rather the money be spent on a high end SP and a few guys in the pen than on Beltran.
Me too. Beltran is great, but unless you have the pitching, he's just eating payroll- look at the Royals this year. Houston has two great starting pitchers and a teriffic closer, and the Sox don't. Money that could be spent on Beltran can be better spent on other needs.

Flight #24
10-20-2004, 12:50 PM
This is the first I have read or heard anything about the asking price for Carlos Beltran. It's from Phil Rogers column today (Wednesday) in the Tribune:

"With agent Scott Boras talking about Manny Ramirez money—essentially $20 million a year for eight years, the Astros may have to acknowledge Beltran was only a rental.

The teams that can afford him are the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Dodgers and Cubs. That's about it.

It's debatable whether others at Tribune Co., specifically the ones who crunch payroll numbers for the company team, share this conclusion."

If anybody still thinks the Sox have any chance at this guy please feel free to make your case and how they pull it off.

Lip
1) The only team that will pay that rate IMO is the Spankees. If he goes somewhere else, it'll be for a lower price and likely a shorter deal (5years or so).

2) The Sox could play in the 17mil range if they decide to go with 1 superstar player rather than adding a couple (SP, RP, etc.). I would guess that that will be in the range of what non-Yankee teams will offer. The fact that any team could have had Manny Ramirez for free on a shorter deal and no one bit tells me that there aren't going to be any teams out there willing to pay that rate for Beltran. The Spanks are the possible exception.

3) That would leave him to decide between the remaining teams based primarily on non-monetary considerations. The Sox have a bunch of things in their favor here including the city, the latin clubhouse & manager, & the ability to extend a career by DHing some as he gets older. The Sox can also point to being a likely playoff favorite with the current team and adding Carlos.

NonetheLoaiza
10-20-2004, 12:57 PM
Beltran is probably the closest thing to being worth the money he makes/will make. the only other major leaguer that i can think of off the top of my head that earns every penny of his humongous salary is vlad. in any case, beltran is worth 6 yrs at 18 per. if thats the case, id rather see money go towards pitching.

Hangar18
10-20-2004, 01:05 PM
Beltran is probably the closest thing to being worth the money he makes/will make. the only other major leaguer that i can think of off the top of my head that earns every penny of his humongous salary is vlad. in any case, beltran is worth 6 yrs at 18 per. if thats the case, id rather see money go towards pitching.
With the gauntlet being thrown out there now ............ Look for a Huge Campaign to be kicked off shortly by the Chicago Media to get Carlos Beltran
in flubbie Blue. The Media Onslaught will be Merciless, Voluminous,
and quadruple what we saw when the Media wanted Greg Maddux in a cub
uniform last year. Also, look for more corporations to also get in on the
Help-us-make-Beltran-a-Cub foolishness this winter. Cubbie Camelot
is certainly starting to look like Cubmeggadon already ........

jabrch
10-20-2004, 01:09 PM
Don't disagree w/ you. But, wouldn't an OF of Lee, Beltran and Rowand sound good? Could we dump PK to help offset the costs of Beltran and still get a #2-3 SP? Could we sign Vizquel, for example, and move Uribe to 2nd for a solid middle infield? It's all possible and it all depends on how creative KW can be this off-season.
I don't think that it all depends on KW's creativity, rather the market's flexibility. Given that there are expected to be about 9-12 teams with legitimate FA money to spend, I don't think it will be so easy. Dumping PK - not easy. His deal is still going to be hard to move - even after his good season last year. Possible - but not easy.

I just wouldn't say KW can be creative and get the job done - the market will determine a great deal. I assume the Yanks sign one of the SPs availale (my guess is Clement). Pedro - who knows where he goes to. Can we get Pavano? That would be ideal. Geez, if we get Pavano for 7-8mm and still have another 7-8mm to spend on a SS like Cabrerra, I'd be thrilled.

I just don't know how it is gonna play out - the FA market is a strange thing. Other than the Yanks, nobody really can control it. It just requires being flexible to what is out there.

HITMEN OF 77
10-20-2004, 01:12 PM
For 15-20 million is a waist for Beltran, get a closer and another starting pitcher. Why do we need another guy who can hit around .300 30hr 100rbi?

Hangar18
10-20-2004, 01:43 PM
For 15-20 million is a waist for Beltran........
Why do we need another guy who can hit around .300 30hr 100rbi?
Because were letting the Guy that hits .300-30HR-100 rbi, go (Magglio)
and Need to REPLACE/FILL THE HOLE he represents. Would be foolish
to "get rid of" a Maggs ..... and put a Joe Borchard out there, simply
because he was Cheaper ........

:reinsy
" Yes Hangar, but LOOK AT THE MONEY WERE SAVING !!!! You want
Carlos Beltran dont you?"

fusillirob1983
10-20-2004, 01:50 PM
Even though the Yankees need a more solid rotation next season, I think a loss to Boston tonight would prompt them to make sure they sign Beltran in the offseason.

jabrch
10-20-2004, 02:08 PM
The question is can we replace Magglio without spending 20mm on one individual player. The answer has to be yes.

The question is what can we productively do with 20mm$. The answer is address MULTIPLE needs.

I guarantee you if we sign Beltran, and do nothing else the usual suspects will bitch that we JR is cheap and KW is dumb.

Given the Sox financial position, Beltran is not the best choice. He's not reasonably affordable if we still intend on competing.

Justafan
10-20-2004, 02:13 PM
Just put this to rest. Carlos Beltran WILL NOT be wearing a Sox uniform next year.

pinwheels3530
10-20-2004, 02:15 PM
Just put this to rest. Carlos Beltran WILL NOT be wearing a Sox uniform next year.
Agreed!!!

bigfoot
10-20-2004, 02:19 PM
But Scott Boras DOES need another potential suitor for Beltran's services(Cubs,et al). If he wants to force NY to pay the $20 mil. If no other team plays "the game" then even the YankMees won't offer that much. Collusion? Maybe. Proving it is another thing, and at the numbers that are being bandied about, extremely difficult to prove.

cornball
10-20-2004, 03:09 PM
But Scott Boras DOES need another potential suitor for Beltran's services(Cubs,et al). If he wants to force NY to pay the $20 mil. If no other team plays "the game" then even the YankMees won't offer that much. Collusion? Maybe. Proving it is another thing, and at the numbers that are being bandied about, extremely difficult to prove.
I agree and I also think KW is right about Boras stretching out this process for a long period of time to increase the media coverage.

jabrch
10-20-2004, 03:13 PM
But Scott Boras DOES need another potential suitor for Beltran's services(Cubs,et al). If he wants to force NY to pay the $20 mil. If no other team plays "the game" then even the YankMees won't offer that much. Collusion? Maybe. Proving it is another thing, and at the numbers that are being bandied about, extremely difficult to prove.
He already has Houston to play with him.

doublem23
10-20-2004, 04:24 PM
Beltran's essentially played himself out of the Sox's price range with this ridiculous post-season, which isn't neccessarily a bad thing. $20 million a year for 8 years? Fuhgetaboutit.

Lip Man 1
10-20-2004, 05:43 PM
Mickster:

Here's some material to chew on while I work on getting the information you are requesting:

"When (Horace) Grant left Reinsdorf’s office, he said he called his agent Jimmy Sexton from his car phone. Sexton described him as ‘very emotional.’ ‘Jimmy, the guy just tried to negotiate with me without getting you involved.’ Sexton had Grant fax over the piece of paper they had scribbled on, the proposed contract in Reinsdorf’s view. ‘I swear on my grandfather’s grave, I didn’t agree to anything,’ said Grant, who related that same story, off the record, to at least one reporter. ‘If I did agree, then why didn’t I just sign the paper?’ Sexton’s biggest problem with Reinsdorf’s storyis that this somehow was a ‘spur of the moment’ offer. ‘If your going to do a handshake deal with a player...I don’t think you take the time to write it on a legal pad and ask the player to sign it.’ ‘He talks about the morality of sports,’ Grant said. ‘Why would anyone want to negotiate with me without my representative there?’– Horace Grant & Jimmy Sexton to Melissa Issacson. From the book Transition Game. Pgs. 77- 79.

"There was plenty of time to work it out if [the Sox] had serious interest," Jose Torres the agent for Roberto Alomar said."They wanted to sign him to a deal without my involvement." – from a story in the Chicago Tribune January 8, 2004.

Lip

dooda
10-20-2004, 05:47 PM
Got to fill more than one hole with the $19 mil(Maggs and Valentine). Pitching and defense will close the gap created by Maggs departure. Using the money for quality starter or two and a shortstop makes far more sense than signing Beltran. If we had the pitching and defense already and the money, signing a $20 mil dollar player might make sense.

Mickster
10-20-2004, 06:24 PM
Mickster:

Here's some material to chew on while I work on getting the information you are requesting:

"When (Horace) Grant left Reinsdorf’s office, he said he called his agent Jimmy Sexton from his car phone. Sexton described him as ‘very emotional.’ ‘Jimmy, the guy just tried to negotiate with me without getting you involved.’ Sexton had Grant fax over the piece of paper they had scribbled on, the proposed contract in Reinsdorf’s view. ‘I swear on my grandfather’s grave, I didn’t agree to anything,’ said Grant, who related that same story, off the record, to at least one reporter. ‘If I did agree, then why didn’t I just sign the paper?’ Sexton’s biggest problem with Reinsdorf’s storyis that this somehow was a ‘spur of the moment’ offer. ‘If your going to do a handshake deal with a player...I don’t think you take the time to write it on a legal pad and ask the player to sign it.’ ‘He talks about the morality of sports,’ Grant said. ‘Why would anyone want to negotiate with me without my representative there?’– Horace Grant & Jimmy Sexton to Melissa Issacson. From the book Transition Game. Pgs. 77- 79.

"There was plenty of time to work it out if [the Sox] had serious interest," Jose Torres the agent for Roberto Alomar said."They wanted to sign him to a deal without my involvement." – from a story in the Chicago Tribune January 8, 2004.

Lip1. I mentioned Horace Grant in my post. No need to mention it. I will concede that fact.

2. Regardless of what Jose Torres says, that was not the reason Robbie didn't sign with the Sox at the end of 2003. KW and Robbie had a handshake deal for a contract worth "X" amount of dollars. After the season, when KW went to JR to tell him the terms of the offer, JR said not at that price. When KW met with Robbie and his agent, KW rescinded the previous "agreed upon" offer and gave him a lower one. Robbie declined. Steff can back me up on this. The reason Alomar didn't sign had absolutely nothing to do with KW or JR "negotiating" behind Jose Torres' back.

Hank Kimball
10-20-2004, 06:55 PM
Well, I don't know for sure, but....


What if JR offered him 40% of the Bulls?

Well, not really 40%, that'd be....

How about 30% of the Bulls and rename the "Cell" Casa de Carlos?

No, that wouldn't work.

Isn't there something about a...

Oh, well, just a thought.

Hank

34rancher
10-20-2004, 08:56 PM
For 15-20 million is a waist for Beltran, get a closer and another starting pitcher. Why do we need another guy who can hit around .300 30hr 100rbi?

You are kidding right? Beltran is not that good (he is good, but not that good).
HE IS HITTING .267 THIS YEAR PEOPLE!!!

I hope that the cubs take him for that kind of randsom. lock up payroll, yeah.

Don't believe me look here. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6132&context=batting)

balke
10-20-2004, 09:09 PM
You are kidding right? Beltran is not that good (he is good, but not that good).
HE IS HITTING .267 THIS YEAR PEOPLE!!!

I hope that the cubs take him for that kind of randsom. lock up payroll, yeah.

Don't believe me look here. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6132&context=batting)
I'd give my left arm for Beltran at this point. He's single handedly destroying the Cardinals in every game. .267 isn't representative of his talent level. He can score from 1st on a double, and can steal 2nd +40 times. This is the definition of clutch (the playoffs) and he's blown up. I cringe when I see him come up to bat. ANd that double he robbed Renteria of in Game 5 was on of the greatest catches I've ever witnessed.

I have a small shred of hope that we could get him. 15mil of Maggs + Valentin's 6, and a trade involving Clee. I'll say it for you "JR, cheap, rawr rawr, rawr"... but I still have that little bit of me that says the sox give it a shot.

We'll see what happens. He's a hell of a ballplayer, and looking to be the Barry Bonds that you can't walk, cause he'll steal 2nd, and score on a single. Noone deserves 20 mil. But if A-rod can get that money, Beltran can too.