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Joel Perez
10-09-2001, 01:46 PM
Some ones aren't gonna like this.

If I was GM, and had to make the 24-man roster next year, this is what I came up with last night. This is if the Sox traded or released anyone from this year's staff for minor leaguers, prospects, et al. It's going to be anyone's guess who or what the Sox do this year, but at least I can explain how I came up with this roster.

Pitchers:

Starting:
Mark Buerhle
David Wells
Gary Glover
Kip Wells
Jon Garland

Bullpen:
Josh Fogg
Matt Ginter
Sean Lowe
Jim Parque
Kelly Wunsch
Keith Foulke


Batters:

Starters:
1b Paul Konerko
2b Ray Durham
SS Royce Clayton
3b Joe Crede
LF Carlos Lee
CF Chris Singleton
RF Magglio Ordonez
C Mark Johnson
DH Frank Thomas

Utility Men:
IF/OF Jeff Liefer
IF Tony Graffanino
OF Aaron Rowand
C Josh Paul

Reasons:
One notable was seeing Royce be the starting SS, and no Jose Valentin. Well, the reason why is that for all the things Jose brings to the Sox--bat, leadership responsibilities, and chemistry--the one thing that hurts him is that he is a man without a position. He has hands of steel. If he was playing on the Seattle Mariners or any other top-flight team, he would be the DH. No way Lou Pinella or Joe Torre would use him in the field except once in a blue-moon. With all the baggage Royce brings, the one thing he does bring is steady defense. Granted, his range isn't what it used to be in his rookie season or since the 90s, but he's everything that you are looking for as a shortstop. He makes the routine plays, and makes the tough plays look easy from time to time. As young as our pitching staff is, we need that dependability moreso than ever before. His bat??? He better take the time in the offseason to keep on improving. Otherwise, the Sox would need to upgrade this position with someone else.

The bullpen is a mess, especially relying on some of the veterans to make it back from surgery. I feel that Biddle, Barcelo, Vining, Rauch and even Bill Simas will all be at AAA just for a short time in case anyone of the Sox falter. I stuck back Kip Wells in the starting rotation to give him one more shot--IMO he has too much good stuff to waste in the pen. The X-Factor is Sean Lowe. As we all know, he's not too happy being in the pen, but maybe the Sox can give him a good deal to keep him happy--I hope. Otherwise, Simas or Barcelo would get first crack at his slot. I feel that Ginter and Fogg would someday get Simas' and Lowe's slot anyway, but not yet. If one of the starting 5 falter, and IF (Big IF) Jim Parque is ready to get back into starting, I wouldn't mind trying him one more time as well. But for the beginning of the season, this is what I would like to see.

I think, realistically, the Sox will make a major trade. Whether it's Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, or anyone else, who knows until Spring Training 2002? At least, this is a good start to see how you guys and gals feel about next season.

Thoughts???

Bmr31
10-09-2001, 02:15 PM
Good point. Ive been trying to explain for MONTHS, that the sox have no chance at a ring with Jose at SS........

PaleHoseGeorge
10-09-2001, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
Some ones aren't gonna like this.

If I was GM, and had to make the 24-man roster next year, this is what I came up with last night....


So you're saying the bottom of Jerry Manuel's line up ought to look something like this:

#6 Crede, 3b
#7 Singleton, cf
#8 Clayton, SS
#9 Johnson, C

Are you sure about this?

Randar68
10-09-2001, 03:54 PM
Bullpen:
Josh Fogg
Matt Ginter
Sean Lowe
Jim Parque
Kelly Wunsch
Keith Foulke


Well, Fogg won himself a spot, and barring trades, Lowe and Parque will be there. I think you'll see a 12-man staff out of spring training, so you'll have 5 starters and 7 in the pen, as you do. My pen, barring trades, is.

Fogg
Lowe
Parque
Wunsch
Howry
Osuna
Foulke

I definitely seeing some trades going down. Barcelo, Biddle, Wells, and Ginter have no place to play. Since many of the surgeries were at or before the start of the season, most will have made full recoveries.

As for the rotation:

D Wells(or other veteran)
Buehrle
Garland
Glover
Wright/Rauch/K Wells/Guerrier/Malone battle in Spring training. My thinking is that if they all pitch equally, Rauch or Wright (more likely Rauch) will be given the spot.

Lowe, Howry, and Parque are the most likely to be dealt before opening day.

Barcelo, Rauch, Wright, Malone, Ginter, Guerrier, and Biddle are the most likely not to make the roster due to inexperience or less recovery times from injuries....

NUCatsFan
10-09-2001, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



So you're saying the bottom of Jerry Manuel's line up ought to look something like this:

#6 Crede, 3b
#7 Singleton, cf
#8 Clayton, SS
#9 Johnson, C

Are you sure about this?

Then who's batting second in your lineup? I assume you've penciled Durham as leadoff, Frank #3, Maggs #4, Konerko #5. That would leave CLee at #2. You sure you want that?

With that starting lineup, I would guess batting order is:
Durham
Singleton
Frank
Maggs
Konerko
CLee
Crede
Clayton
Johnson/Paul
(even though I don't like Ray as our leadoff hitter)

My guesses for acquisitions.....our needs are catcher, CF, and experienced starting pitching. Whether or not they bring back DWells to an incentive-laden contract, I still feel the Sox will go after another starter. The five you had listed, while they may be good, won't get us back to the post season any time soon, unless they all pitch to their potential, which won't happen next year or the year after. I say one more starter, move KWells to the pen, switch Glover and Lowe (?), leave Fogg or Ginter down (guessing at Fogg), or both and bring back Osuna.

Also, I feel that some move will be made with our OFs. Not sure what, but something tells me that a deal will be done.

oldcomiskey
10-09-2001, 04:50 PM
like they had a chance with Clayton at ss either---you mean to tell me that you dont think the Sox couldve made up 10 games if Frank was healthy--if Boomer was healthy and Jose was at ss---Clayton is an ass---he should be traded for my ex wife---who has the same attitude

Joel Perez
10-09-2001, 05:30 PM
Quote:

So you're saying the bottom of Jerry Manuel's line up ought to look something like this:

#6 Crede, 3b
#7 Singleton, cf
#8 Clayton, SS
#9 Johnson, C

Are you sure about this?

I'm not that confident with the bottom six. My views were if the Sox just go with what they had, and just traded or released guys like Perry, Valentin, Alomar for minor leaguers or prospects. I really don't know who they can upgrade with unless they make a blockbuster trade, so my batting order would be:

Durham
Singleton
Thomas
Ordonez
Konerko
Lee
Johnson
Crede
Clayton

I think Mark will have a better bat next year with a little more pop. Plus, with him batting lefty, it'll balance the lineup a little, even though from Thomas to Lee, they all bat righty. I really like Johnson at #7 to take some pressure of off Joe Crede, so he'll go at #8.

Another X-Factor is Jeff Liefer--IF Lee or Konerko gets traded, then I really see Jeff becoming a #5 or #6 hitter on this team, and taking the place of whomever gets traded, unless of course Jerry Manuel/Ken Williams wants to either platoon Aaron Rowand and Jeff in LF or platoon Liefer and Thomas at 1b. The GM has a couple of flexible options to go at this winter.

Thoughts? Or am I smoking something?

Joel Perez
10-09-2001, 05:33 PM
I had guys like Jon Rauch, Antonio Osuna, Lorenzo Barcelo, et al to start at AAA to get some pitches under themselves and to rehab without the thought of getting shelled at the majors. I thought about getting Parque and/or Wunsch to do the same at AAA, but we need all the proven leftys we can get.

Thoughts?

Tragg
10-09-2001, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez

Starters:
1b Paul Konerko
2b Ray Durham
SS Royce Clayton
3b Joe Crede
LF Carlos Lee
CF Chris Singleton
RF Magglio Ordonez
C Mark Johnson
DH Frank Thomas



We'll be lucky to win 80 games again.

We still have 3 automatic outs in the lineup PLUS a rookie, whom we don't know whether he can hit.
We've got to do something - Kenny manuel is kidding himself if he goes to 2002 looking like that.

GASHWOUND
10-09-2001, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
Quote:

So you're saying the bottom of Jerry Manuel's line up ought to look something like this:

#6 Crede, 3b
#7 Singleton, cf
#8 Clayton, SS
#9 Johnson, C

Are you sure about this?

I'm not that confident with the bottom six. My views were if the Sox just go with what they had, and just traded or released guys like Perry, Valentin, Alomar for minor leaguers or prospects. I really don't know who they can upgrade with unless they make a blockbuster trade, so my batting order would be:

Durham
Singleton
Thomas
Ordonez
Konerko
Lee
Johnson
Crede
Clayton

I think Mark will have a better bat next year with a little more pop. Plus, with him batting lefty, it'll balance the lineup a little, even though from Thomas to Lee, they all bat righty. I really like Johnson at #7 to take some pressure of off Joe Crede, so he'll go at #8.

Another X-Factor is Jeff Liefer--IF Lee or Konerko gets traded, then I really see Jeff becoming a #5 or #6 hitter on this team, and taking the place of whomever gets traded, unless of course Jerry Manuel/Ken Williams wants to either platoon Aaron Rowand and Jeff in LF or platoon Liefer and Thomas at 1b. The GM has a couple of flexible options to go at this winter.

Thoughts? Or am I smoking something?

Hmmm, I don't lke Singleton batting 2nd in the lineup. He doesn't take walks and that what you need from your top 2 hitters. I still lile Singleton to be on the team but batting 7th or 8th.

I have no idea what KW is gonna do in the offseason with any big moves, but as of right now my lineup would be.

Valentin
Durham
Thomas
Ordonez
Konerko
Leifer
Lee
Singleton
M.Johnson

Of course its pre-mature right now. Leifer needs t work on his defense in the offseason to play 3rd.

Unless KW can trade Lee, and a few other young pitchers for a top of the line starter. Sign Damon and let Bochard play left field. It's just tough right now to make out lineups with the uncertain decisions of playes who will be here and are trade bait. Uh oh, got to go :)

Daver
10-09-2001, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Well, Fogg won himself a spot, and barring trades, Lowe and Parque will be there. I think you'll see a 12-man staff out of spring training, so you'll have 5 starters and 7 in the pen, as you do. My pen, barring trades, is.

Fogg
Lowe
Parque
Wunsch
Howry
Osuna
Foulke

I definitely seeing some trades going down. Barcelo, Biddle, Wells, and Ginter have no place to play. Since many of the surgeries were at or before the start of the season, most will have made full recoveries.

As for the rotation:

D Wells(or other veteran)
Buehrle
Garland
Glover
Wright/Rauch/K Wells/Guerrier/Malone battle in Spring training. My thinking is that if they all pitch equally, Rauch or Wright (more likely Rauch) will be given the spot.

Lowe, Howry, and Parque are the most likely to be dealt before opening day.

Barcelo, Rauch, Wright, Malone, Ginter, Guerrier, and Biddle are the most likely not to make the roster due to inexperience or less recovery times from injuries....

Randar Rocky will be recovered well before spring training,according to his dad.

Jerry_Manuel
10-09-2001, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND
as of right now my lineup would be.

Valentin
Leifer

Of course its pre-mature right now. Leifer needs t work on his defense in the offseason to play 3rd.



I'm really not comfortable with Valentin and Liefer on the left side of the infield. I'm sure given a full season of ab's Liefer could hit 30-35 homers. But he doesn't make contact enough, I guess if we are waiting for the 3 run homer all the time fine.

Daver
10-09-2001, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel



I'm really not comfortable with Valentin and Liefer on the left side of the infield. I'm sure given a full season of ab's Liefer could hit 30-35 homers. But he doesn't make contact enough, I guess if we are waiting for the 3 run homer all the time fine.

He was kidding right,tell me he was kidding.

Jerry_Manuel
10-09-2001, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by daver
He was kidding right,tell me he was kidding.

I think he was serious about Liefer playing 3rd.

GASHWOUND
10-09-2001, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by daver


He was kidding right,tell me he was kidding.


Ah, come on Daver. I don't think Leifer is that bad at 3rd. We are willing to play Valentin at SS, why not Leif? Uhhh, Leifer can play 3rd..Uhh, all he has to do is work on his defense more in the off season..Um, Don't we need is left handed punch in our lineup? Jeez, maybe it isn't such a good idea to play Leif at 3rd. Well, that was my positon all along. I think you guys misunderstood me. What I meant to say is Leifer should be a bench guy who's in the lineup once in awhile.
What ever gave you the idea I wanted to play Leifer at 3rd. It was a typo, sorry.


(feww, I think I wiggled out of that one.) :)

Daver
10-09-2001, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND



Ah, come on Daver. I don't think Leifer is that bad at 3rd. We are willing to play Valentin at SS, why not Leif? Uhhh, Leifer can play 3rd..Uhh, all he has to do is work on his defense more in the off season..Um, Don't we need is left handed punch in our lineup? Jeez, maybe it isn't such a good idea to play Leif at 3rd. Well, that was my positon all along. I think you guys misunderstood me. What I meant to say is Leifer should be a bench guy who's in the lineup once in awhile.
What ever gave you the idea I wanted to play Leifer at 3rd. It was a typo, sorry.


(feww, I think I wiggled out of that one.) :)

Or not.

Leifer?

ode to veeck
10-09-2001, 11:49 PM
, why not Leif? Uhhh, Leifer can play 3rd..Uhh, all he has to do is work on his defense more in the off season

like he did the last couple of seasons, I'm ready to pull the plug on the Liefer project, don't think he'll ever be a great fielder, hit 30 HRs, or hit 290 ... can't see keeping him other than utlility until we've got a more solid bench man

I'd like to see Valentin get the shot at 2nd and go back to lead off, he doesn't have the speed, but he's the smartest on the squad on the basepaths .. until someone comes up from to minors to replace him--once Valentin's comfortable at 2nd, send KW on vacation and have his assistant manage the trade of Durham for someone decent, e.g another catcher, 3B or pitching prospect--should get the trade value while we can

Randar68
10-10-2001, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by daver


Randar Rocky will be recovered well before spring training,according to his dad.

Daver, that's good to hear, but as we have seen with Howry, recovered and throwing well are 2 different things, are they not?

I am much more confident in Parque, Osuna, Rauch, etc being back to 100% and throwing well as they will have had an extra 3-4 months of rehab and throwing simulated games in Arizona before Rocky even gets throwing off a mound again. Barcelo still concerns me, this is his second major shoulder surgery to go with Tommy John surgery, I hope it doesn't reappear, but at this point it's becoming likely. I have heard frighteningly little about his rehab progress.

GASHWOUND
10-10-2001, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by daver


Or not.

Leifer?

Alright, Leifer may not be the best defensive player in the world, but my thinking was that we don't have any left handed power hitters on this team(Ray would like to become one though) and usually you would put your power hitters at LF or 3rd base. That where you would put your power hitters. Crede would be jst another right handed hitter on this team full of right handed hitters. Isn't it possible for Jeff to work on his defense in the off season or whatever and actually become a solid glove man? Its possible, right?

Randar68
10-10-2001, 11:27 AM
Isn't it possible for Jeff to work on his defense in the off season or whatever and actually become a solid glove man? Its possible, right?

Well, overall production is what really matters, right???

Crede will beat Liefer in every offensive category but power numbers and SO numbers....Avg, OBP, RBI, BB's....Crede's superior....not only that, but he is outstanding defensively. I do not want to see Liefer ever step onto the field as a 3B again. Period....

Bmr31
10-10-2001, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Well, overall production is what really matters, right???

Crede will beat Liefer in every offensive category but power numbers and SO numbers....Avg, OBP, RBI, BB's....Crede's superior....not only that, but he is outstanding defensively. I do not want to see Liefer ever step onto the field as a 3B again. Period....

I dont want to see liefer step on the field anywhere. In fact, i dont want to see liefer in the major leagues. He doesnt belong on a major league baseball team.

Tragg
10-10-2001, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Well, overall production is what really matters, right???

Crede will beat Liefer in every offensive category but power numbers and SO numbers....Avg, OBP, RBI, BB's....Crede's superior....not only that, but he is outstanding defensively. I do not want to see Liefer ever step onto the field as a 3B again. Period....

If your evaluation of crede is on target: a)where the hell has he been; b)I'm damn excited about him.

doublem23
10-11-2001, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
Some ones aren't gonna like this.

If I was GM, and had to make the 24-man roster next year, this is what I came up with last night.

Thoughts???

Since I'm pretty sure MLB rosters are 25 men, you get to ink in 1 more player, buddy.

Jerry_Manuel
10-11-2001, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Since I'm pretty sure MLB rosters are 25 men, you get to ink in 1 more player, buddy.

:gun
I'll take that.

doublem23
10-11-2001, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


:gun
I'll take that.

The said thing about this is that as much fun as we make of this whole Julio and the Mysterious 25th man spot, knowing KW's mind, The Gun's got a really good shot..... sigh.... We've waited 85 years, what's ONE more?

kermittheefrog
10-11-2001, 01:39 AM
This would never happen but I think the Sox should go after Andruw Jones. The Braves are shopping him because he had a down year at the plate but he's still just 24 and still the best defensive centerfielder in baseball. Mark McGwire had a horrible year in 1991 as a young hitter and it didn't hurt his development, he bounced right back. Plus Jones is durable, Cox only gives him a couple off days a year and Jones handles it well. I bet we could get him for a package like Borchard, Lee and Guerrier.

I also think the Sox should bring in Rickey Henderson instead of trying to keep Jose Canseco and put him in left. Henderson is more durable than Canseco and he's incredibly patient. He would be our best leadoff hitter since Tony Phillips.

FarWestChicago
10-11-2001, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I also think the Sox should bring in Rickey Henderson instead of trying to keep Jose Canseco and put him in left. Henderson is more durable than Canseco and he's incredibly patient. He would be our best leadoff hitter since Tony Phillips. OK, either Kermie is more in love with walks than youth or somebody hacked his account. Which is it?

kermittheefrog
10-11-2001, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
OK, either Kermie is more in love with walks than youth or somebody hacked his account. Which is it?

Yeah I know Henderson is old as dirt but players with his kind of talent are exceptions, guys with hall of fame type talent remain good enough to be regulars much much longer than mediocre players. Henderson is still has as good of an eye as anyone in baseball, he still steals bases and he's still in great shape. He could share time in left with Liefer if we can dump Lee on someone. Or with Rowand if we dump Lee on someone and the Sox decide Leifer can play third.

FarWestChicago
10-11-2001, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Yeah I know Henderson is old as dirt but players with his kind of talent are exceptions, guys with hall of fame type talent remain good enough to be regulars much much longer than mediocre players.This is true. Bonds is older than dirt, too. But, he had a passable year.

Bmr31
10-11-2001, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
This is true. Bonds is older than dirt, too. But, he had a passable year.


yeah yeah west, we know all about your giants and your boy bonds! :)

Randar68
10-11-2001, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
This would never happen but I think the Sox should go after Andruw Jones. The Braves are shopping him because he had a down year at the plate but he's still just 24 and still the best defensive centerfielder in baseball.

Any sources, I hadn't heard this at all...


I bet we could get him for a package like Borchard, Lee and Guerrier.

I would much rather pair some of our young pitching talent, and Chipper is going to LF, so what would they do with Lee. You know how in love with pitching Atlanta is...

kermittheefrog
10-11-2001, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Any sources, I hadn't heard this at all...



Baseball Weekly.



I would much rather pair some of our young pitching talent, and Chipper is going to LF, so what would they do with Lee. You know how in love with pitching Atlanta is...

They are in love with pitching but they never have a lack of home grown pitching and right now their offense sucks. They've been talkign about Chipper moving for a while but he's damn valuable at third so I'd be surprised if he went anywhere else before 2003 or 2004 when Kelly Johnson and/or Wilson Betemit are ready.

Joel Perez
10-12-2001, 12:52 PM
To Chicago: Andruw Jones

To Atlanta: ???

I don't know if Atlanta has a plan if they do part with Mr. Jones. They don't have a backup or anyone in the minors, if I remember. And I don't think they'll take Chris Singleton either in a package.

To Atlanta: Carlos Lee, Aaron Rowand, Danny Wright ???????

Dunno.

longshot7
10-12-2001, 09:40 PM
I like that deal if it's do-able. any idea what Jones' contract situation and/or agent is?

jklm
10-12-2001, 10:04 PM
His agent is... Mr. Boras...

Jerry_Manuel
10-12-2001, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by jklm
His agent is... Mr. Boras...

So in other words no chance in hell we are getting him.


:reinsy
I think you meant his agent is Satan.