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View Full Version : Grilli as the 5th starter fo' shizzle?


santo=dorf
10-19-2004, 05:15 PM
The White Sox (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71590), confident that RHP Jason Grilli can be their fifth starter, are more likely to upgrade their lineup than their starting pitching.



G.M. Ken Williams says that he would be satisfied with Juan Uribe (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/player/85881) at short and Willie Harris (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/player/103959) at second, but adds, "I've got more variables on the board than I've had in the last four years." Indians (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71591) free-agent SS Omar Vizquel (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/player/85082) is an option Vizquel, like White Sox (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71590) manager Ozzie Guillen is Venezuelan. Both the Mariners (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71598) and Giants (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71612) have expressed consistent interest in Vizquel in the past.
http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3088714

I hope upgrading the lineup involves signing Carlos Beltran, even though this week Rosenthal suggets that the Cubs will make a push for him. :(:

Ol' No. 2
10-19-2004, 05:19 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3088714

I hope upgrading the lineup involves signing Carlos Beltran, even though this week Rosenthal suggets that the Cubs will make a push for him. :(:I would take anything Kenny says publicly with a grain of salt. He's known for saying things to try to throw the other GM's off the track. Think back on how many of his moves he's telegraphed in advance.

Mohoney
10-19-2004, 05:21 PM
This is bad news. I really hope that this isn't true.

If we're not going to sign a free agent starter to bolster this staff, then we should just go ahead and trade Konerko and Lee for prospects and blow this thing up.

If Contreras, Garland, and Grilli are the 3, 4, and 5 starters going into 2005, we're doomed.

Lip Man 1
10-19-2004, 05:25 PM
Sure the Sox can always use another pitcher with an ERA of eight for the back end of the rotation.

But I'm sure there will be posters saying 'just give him a chance...' (Where have we heard that before???)

Lip

Baby Fisk
10-19-2004, 05:29 PM
Let's just bring back Jon Rauch so at least jeremy can be happy. :cool:

Shingotime!!
10-19-2004, 05:32 PM
Is there any chance of Neal Cotts getting a chance to start?

OEO Magglio
10-19-2004, 05:47 PM
Sure the Sox can always use another pitcher with an ERA of eight for the back end of the rotation.

But I'm sure there will be posters saying 'just give him a chance...' (Where have we heard that before???)

Lip
My god lip, wait for the damn offseason to play out before you start posting this crap.

Mickster
10-19-2004, 05:50 PM
Sure the Sox can always use another pitcher with an ERA of eight for the back end of the rotation.

But I'm sure there will be posters saying 'just give him a chance...' (Where have we heard that before???)

Lip
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2226&stc=1

Lip Man 1
10-19-2004, 06:13 PM
My God OEO why should we wait for another blown season to tell the truth? Have you even bothered to watch the Sox 5th starters at all the past oh three years?

I didn't start the threat I was reacting to what apparently was posted elsewhere but I DO remember the Chicago papers towards the end of the season quoting Williams along the same lines. And as I recall the reaction around here wasn't pretty then either!

Lip

Mickster
10-19-2004, 06:18 PM
Let's wait and see what the rotation looks like when pitchers and catchers report and reserve opinion until then. He hasn't even had a chance to make a move. Could it be that a deal is made for a #2-3 starter that pushes Garland to #5?

If that were the case, Garland would be the best #5 in all of baseball. Let's wait and see.

soxwon
10-19-2004, 06:25 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3088714

I hope upgrading the lineup involves signing Carlos Beltran, even though this week Rosenthal suggets that the Cubs will make a push for him. :(:

The cubs can only get him, if they get rid of sosa.
Who would want Sosa, with thast contract?
NO ONE- they are stuck with him!!!!
that means NO BELTRAN!!!!! ha ha

A PLEA TO ALL GM'S
Do not in any way deal for Sammy. Do the sox a favor!!!

soxwon
10-19-2004, 06:27 PM
This is bad news. I really hope that this isn't true.

If we're not going to sign a free agent starter to bolster this staff, then we should just go ahead and trade Konerko and Lee for prospects and blow this thing up.

If Contreras, Garland, and Grilli are the 3, 4, and 5 starters going into 2005, we're doomed.

Contreras is great, he won 13 games. With us a full year i see 17 wins easy.
garcia is a 20 game winner so is Buehrle.

Shingotime!!
10-19-2004, 07:10 PM
If that were the case, Garland would be the best #5 in all of baseball. Let's wait and see. That would be great if it were true. I would hate to admitt it but the cubs have maddux as their 5th starter.

Wealz
10-19-2004, 07:15 PM
Sign Percival and Benitez and put Marte in the rotation.

Shingotime!!
10-19-2004, 07:17 PM
Lets give Jon Adikins and Neal Cotts a chance in the rotation!!!!!!!!

SomebodyToldMe
10-19-2004, 07:50 PM
Lets give Jon Adikins and Neal Cotts a chance in the rotation!!!!!!!!
Hey, I got a better idea!

Sign or trade for a pitcher in the offseason!

Doesn't that sound better?

Those guys were pretty good bullpen guys.

Lip Man 1
10-19-2004, 10:32 PM
Somebody says: "Those guys were pretty good bullpen guys."

Shouldn't that be in teal?

Lip

SomebodyToldMe
10-19-2004, 10:36 PM
Somebody says: "Those guys were pretty good bullpen guys."

Shouldn't that be in teal?

Lip
Hey. We couldn't always pitch Shingo for three innings every game.

Mohoney
10-19-2004, 10:37 PM
Lets give Jon Adikins and Neal Cotts a chance in the rotation!!!!!!!!
For the love of all that is sacred, no.

SomebodyToldMe
10-19-2004, 10:39 PM
For the love of all that is sacred, no.
Exactly. Those extra "!"s were a bit too much for me.

kittle42
10-19-2004, 11:31 PM
There seem to be way too many fans here willing to just keep the status quo and keep plugging in guys who have never shown they can get it done.


:reinsy
"I love those kinds of fans."

hitlesswonder
10-19-2004, 11:58 PM
There seem to be way too many fans here willing to just keep the status quo and keep plugging in guys who have never shown they can get it done.
I'm more concerned that Sox management might keep thinking that way. It should be clear by now that punting away a spot in the rotation is a huge handicap. I'd like the Sox to sign a starting pitcher who is actually good, but even just scraping together a couple of million to sign someone who isn't an almost sure loss every fifth day would be a dramatic improvement. It's safe to say I didn't see what Williams saw in Grilli last year (not that he's wrong, I'm just saying I didn't see it).

Still, they haven't made Grilli the 5th starter yet, so I'm not going criticize them for a move that hasn't been made. By the same token, I don't understand how so many people can say you shouldn't judge the Sox intentions by Williams public statements. I'm sure he's not laying out everything he would like to do, but there's not much else to go on as a fan. Does anyone really think he's going to secretly go strong after Beltran? I'll take his words at face value and just be happy that it won't be another fiasco like the "pursuit" of A-Rod. I do hope that Williams statement about signing people quickly doesn't mean he'll be aggressive and overpay for someone like Vizquel before the market is set.

SoxFanTillDeath
10-20-2004, 08:10 AM
Despite what everybody believes, Kenny Williams has an IQ over 50. Everyone complained all year that he didn't fix the 5th starter position, but with our horrible strugles from anyone and everyone we tried to plug in there, the entire league knew that the White Sox *Needed* a starting pitcher, and they were asking for the entire farm system in return.

Kenny kept waiting and waiting to get a few decent performances in a row so that the asking price for a starter would go down and he could get him for less, but it never happened.

Kenny will not go into next season with Contreras, Garland, and Grilli as our 3, 4, and 5 starters. He is using the fact that if worse came to worse we could live with what we have to his advantage so he wouldn't have to trade away as much quality talent to acquire a SP.

I think KW has everything pretty well planned out. If we truly are going after Beltran than we're not going to have enough money to sign Pavano, Lowe, or anyone else, we will have to trade for someone. I think KW is going to trade Konerko/Lee(please no!) for a SP, try to sign Beltran, and than use the leftover money on a RP or 2.

Not a bad plan on paper, eh?

**********************

crc#4
:bandance:

JRIG
10-20-2004, 08:13 AM
Kenny will not go into next season with Contreras, Garland, and Grilli as our 3, 4, and 5 starters.

I'll take that bet.

wdelaney72
10-20-2004, 08:17 AM
We must have watched two different Marte's this season. The White Sox reliever, Damaso Marte, not good this year. Why would we put him in the rotation?

Sign Percival and Benitez and put Marte in the rotation.

34 Inch Stick
10-20-2004, 08:47 AM
Despite what everybody believes, Kenny Williams has an IQ over 50. Everyone complained all year that he didn't fix the 5th starter position, but with our horrible strugles from anyone and everyone we tried to plug in there, the entire league knew that the White Sox *Needed* a starting pitcher, and they were asking for the entire farm system in return.

Kenny kept waiting and waiting to get a few decent performances in a row so that the asking price for a starter would go down and he could get him for less, but it never happened.

Kenny will not go into next season with Contreras, Garland, and Grilli as our 3, 4, and 5 starters. He is using the fact that if worse came to worse we could live with what we have to his advantage so he wouldn't have to trade away as much quality talent to acquire a SP.

I think KW has everything pretty well planned out. If we truly are going after Beltran than we're not going to have enough money to sign Pavano, Lowe, or anyone else, we will have to trade for someone. I think KW is going to trade Konerko/Lee(please no!) for a SP, try to sign Beltran, and than use the leftover money on a RP or 2.

Not a bad plan on paper, eh?

**********************

crc#4
:bandance:
That would be pure genius on KW's part. We let them believe we are insane while we lay the groundwork for our big move. Sounds like KW has been reading some Shakespeare this offseason. Unfortunately he seems to have not gotten to the end yet. Here is a spoiler, Hamlet dies in a bloody mess.

Get us a real starting pitcher of #3 ability or above!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CarlosMay'sThumb
10-20-2004, 08:51 AM
Kenny will not go into next season with Contreras, Garland, and Grilli as our 3, 4, and 5 starters.

:bandance:Isn't Kenny the same moron who started last season with Garland, Scho and Wright as the Sox' 3, 4 and 5? What makes you think that he won't start next season with Contreras, Garland and Grilli?:mad:

SEALgep
10-20-2004, 08:52 AM
There seem to be way too many fans here willing to just keep the status quo and keep plugging in guys who have never shown they can get it done.


:reinsy
"I love those kinds of fans."How are Adkins and Cotts supposed to show they can get it done, with no shot to get it done? They proved it in the minors, but the only way to show they can pitch in the majors, is to pitch in the majors.

Mickster
10-20-2004, 10:02 AM
That would be great if it were true. I would hate to admitt it but the cubs have maddux as their 5th starter.
Not any more. With Clement gone, Maddux moves to #5 and Rusch moves up to #5.

SoxFanTillDeath
10-20-2004, 10:04 AM
Isn't Kenny the same moron who started last season with Garland, Scho and Wright as the Sox' 3, 4 and 5? What makes you think that he won't start next season with Contreras, Garland and Grilli?:mad:If you want your rotation to flourish, you must combine performance with talent/potential. If your rotation is full of all guys who are performing at the same level every year, your rotation gets old and on the downfall. If your rotation is all young studs, your team goes 0-162 because you can't win on potential alone. A good rotation combines the two (see the Twins or any other successful, consistent team). I see Contreras and Garland as the two unproven guys with the potential, and Buehrle and Garcia as absolute studs at the 1 & 2. I agree...get a #3 starter. Don't think KW is brainless and can't figure this out on his own. If the job were so easy, why aren't you doing it?

If you look at the first 2 months of the season, you will see that no one had a problem with Garland and Scho because they were throwing the ball well. True, the Sox didn't have a 5th starter, but Wright earned the job in spring training. You can't fault KW for giving the job to someone that earned it outright.

**********************
crc#4
:bandance:

SoxFanTillDeath
10-20-2004, 10:07 AM
How are Adkins and Cotts supposed to show they can get it done, with no shot to get it done? They proved it in the minors, but the only way to show they can pitch in the majors, is to pitch in the majors.Neal Cotts doesn't have the pitches to get it done as a SP in the major leagues. Unless he can develop another quality pitch, he will remain in the bullpen.

Adkins on the other hand, I'm not sure. He really didn't show me enough this year to make me pull the gun out of my mouth when our 5th starter comes around every week.

The question that should be asked is why isn't the minor league system teaching these guys the pitches they are going to need to succeed in the majors while they are down there, rather than making them learn on the fly once they get called up?

**********************
crc#4
:bandance:

Lip Man 1
10-20-2004, 10:36 AM
Seal:

You bring up a logical valid point...however this is also valid, the record of the Sox 5th starters for the past three years.

As I have often asked in vain when this subject is brought up, please give me a specific number of games you (or anybody for that matter) are willing to risk losing while they 'learn their trade.'

In 2003 for example the lack of a 5th starter in May/ June, for example, came back to bite the Sox on the ass big time in September. Those 'lost games' can't be replayed can they?

Cotts walks far to many hitters to be effective either starting (which was tried in 2003) or in the bullpen (a la 2004). Jon Adkins' most recognizable trait is giving up home runs.

I disagree with your statement that they 'proved it' in the minors. proved what? I mean these guys weren't top pitchers in the minor leagues were they?

Just my opinion but these two guys have the word 'journeyman' written all over them.

But we'll see...maybe the Sox will get 'lucky.'

Lip

gosox41
10-20-2004, 10:41 AM
Seal:

You bring up a logical valid point...however this is also valid, the record of the Sox 5th starters for the past three years.

As I have often asked in vain when this subject is brought up, please give me a specific number of games you (or anybody for that matter) are willing to risk losing while they 'learn their trade.'

In 2003 for example the lack of a 5th starter in May/ June, for example, came back to bite the Sox on the ass big time in September. Those 'lost games' can't be replayed can they?

Cotts walks far to many hitters to be effective either starting (which was tried in 2003) or in the bullpen (a la 2004). Jon Adkins' most recognizable trait is giving up home runs.

I disagree with your statement that they 'proved it' in the minors. proved what? I mean these guys weren't top pitchers in the minor leagues were they?

Just my opinion but these two guys have the word 'journeyman' written all over them.

But we'll see...maybe the Sox will get 'lucky.'

Lip
Lip,
I actually agree with you on yet another post. Players should be learning their trade in the minors, that's why they have them. There is a learning curve when you first get to the big leagues, but IMHO it shouldn't be as long as it's taken some of the Sox pitchers to figure out. If anyone thinks it takes longer then that, I suggest you look at other organzations. ALso blame KW for not sticking with these guys long enough. If anyone thinks the learning curve should be much smoother and quicker (like me) then what it's been for some of these guys then blame KW again for not recognizing fast the need for quality pitchers and forcefeeding crap to us.


Adkins is a garbage innings middle reliever at best. The only thing Cotts has consistently shows is his inability to consistently throw strikes.

Neither of these guys deserves to be in the big leagues right now.


Bob

SOXSINCE'70
10-20-2004, 10:44 AM
'just give him a chance...' (Where have we heard that before???)

Lip

With Adam Peterson,Ramon Garcia,Scott Ruffcorn,James Baldwin,
Melido Perez,and Johnny Ruffin. :D: :D: :D:

Lip Man 1
10-20-2004, 10:56 AM
Baldwin and Perez were actually two pretty good pitchers for the Sox. look at the numbers they put up....

You forgot Brian Keyser and Mike Bertotti though!

Lip

santo=dorf
10-20-2004, 12:46 PM
Sign Percival and Benitez and put Marte in the rotation.:?: :kukoo: :nuts: :tsk:

Marte in the rotation?

kitekrazy
10-21-2004, 06:45 PM
The way the staff is currently, if you had a Carlos Beltran at every positiion you still wouldn't win.
The biggest weakness I see in the staff in general was not delivering in pressure situations.
There is no ace on this staff but a few guys with some pretty numbers. We don't have that pitcher that is reliable to get a win when the team is on a losing streak.
How many times did the bullpen choke in walking in a run?

They need at least 2 decent starters so Contreras could be the #5 (he may be just another Garland except throws harder)

Foulke You
10-22-2004, 12:00 AM
Sign Percival and Benitez and put Marte in the rotation.
No way. Marte is a two pitch pitcher which is better suited to relief stints. He would get hit hard as a starter. Leave him in the setup role where he has excelled.