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View Full Version : When will the Sox Pull a Backe...


Tragg
10-18-2004, 11:33 PM
out of its a$$ like the Astros did?

Speaking theoretically of course.

Lip Man 1
10-18-2004, 11:46 PM
You mean it wasn't Scott Ruffcorn or Rodney Bolton?

Lip

OEO Magglio
10-18-2004, 11:48 PM
out of its a$$ like the Astros did?

Speaking theoretically of course.
Why doesn't Mark Buehrle count??

Jjav829
10-18-2004, 11:52 PM
After trying to figure out what the hell "a Bakke" was for about 5 minutes, I finally realized you were referring to Houston Astros starter Brandon Backe. I changed the title to reflect the proper spelling of his name to avoid confusion.

Milw
10-19-2004, 12:09 AM
His name is Mark Buehrle.

Lip Man 1
10-19-2004, 12:13 AM
OEO asks: "Why doesn't Mark Buehrle count?"

Maybe because Mark never pitched in a pressure packed LCS game. (and probably won't until he winds up in St. Louis in three years...)

Lip

Daver
10-19-2004, 12:23 AM
OEO asks: "Why doesn't Mark Buehrle count?"

Maybe because Mark never pitched in a pressure packed LCS game. (and probably won't until he winds up in St. Louis in three years...)

LipYour reasoning and your logic are both flawed on this.

You cannot judge a player based on a position he has never been in.

hitlesswonder
10-19-2004, 12:31 AM
out of its a$$ like the Astros did?

Speaking theoretically of course.
He had a great game tonight, no doubt. But his numbers on the year weren't amazing. I don't want to be accused of being a troll, but Backe had a 4.30 ERA, a .290 BAA, and a 1.52 WHIP at age 26 while Jon Garland had a 4.89 ERA, a .269 BAA, and a 1.38 WHIP at age 24. Maybe this will propel Backe on to greatness, but I think Sox have produced a few pitchers recently that are just as good as Backe. They just couldn't find one this year.

Tragg
10-19-2004, 12:44 AM
I would liken MB to Oswalt, regardless of draft positions. Shortly after we had MB, we knew what we had.
My meaning was much broader- they've developed a lot more pitchers than we have over the last 10 years or so (Garcia, Oswalt, Miller, Hampton, Lidge and everal others who were good before they got hurt). We haven't had a good run since late 1980s early 1990s.

Actually, I think we've had a very similar team to Houston for a number of years (did you know that Frank and Bagwell are the exact same age to the day) except that a)they have Beltran now and b)their pitching has generally been better.

As for the spelling, that's how I spelled it initially, but it didn't look right.

hitlesswonder
10-19-2004, 12:53 AM
OEO asks: "Why doesn't Mark Buehrle count?"

Maybe because Mark never pitched in a pressure packed LCS game. (and probably won't until he winds up in St. Louis in three years...)

Lip
Backe pitched great against a good offense in a playoff game, but so did Miguel Batista against the Yankees in the World Series a few years ago and he's not a better pitcher than Buehrle either. I'm not going to go look it up, but I'm guessing that over the years lots of pitchers who aren't great have had great games in the playoffs. I've got nothing against Backe, he seems like a good pitcher, but the Sox have produced several ptichers as good as him over the last few years. I don't think he's a good choice as an emblem of White Sox futility. I do agree with you that the lack of a post-season for the Sox since 2000 is very disappointing (to put it politely). And you may be right that Buehrle won't see the playoffs till he leaves, but I'm trying to confine my pessimism to just the upcoming season, so I won't speculate on that.

MarkEdward
10-19-2004, 12:59 AM
Backe was not drafted by the Astros. In fact, he's only spent one year (2004) in Houston's organization. He was acquired in a trade with Tampa for Geoff Blum.

If you want to take Kenny Williams to task for not acquiring more fringe pitching prospects (which Backe was), go ahead, but that's a really harsh criticism.

hitlesswonder
10-19-2004, 01:19 AM
I would liken MB to Oswalt, regardless of draft positions. Shortly after we had MB, we knew what we had.
My meaning was much broader- they've developed a lot more pitchers than we have over the last 10 years or so (Garcia, Oswalt, Miller, Hampton, Lidge and everal others who were good before they got hurt). We haven't had a good run since late 1980s early 1990s.

Actually, I think we've had a very similar team to Houston for a number of years (did you know that Frank and Bagwell are the exact same age to the day) except that a)they have Beltran now and b)their pitching has generally been better.

As for the spelling, that's how I spelled it initially, but it didn't look right.
Well, I agree that the Astros have done a better job developing pitchers than the Sox (I think it actually extends to position players, too). But I think they probably are one of the better teams in MLB at this. The team across the field from them tonight hasn't developed a really good pitcher outside of Matt Morris that I can remember in the last few years. I don't think the Sox are particularly bad at developing players, I'd guess they are about average (with absolutely no supporting evidence that this is true).

I agree the Astros are an interesting comparison to the Sox. With all the talent the Astros have had, a good minor league system, and aggressive management that went out and got Randy Johnson, this is the first year they've won a playoff series and they barely made the playoffs. Of course, they won 4 division titles in 5 years, while the Sox have one title and bunch of 2nd place finishes, so the Astros have clearly been better. Shows just how hard it is to win it all.

kittle42
10-19-2004, 10:48 AM
out of its a$$ like the Astros did?

Speaking theoretically of course.
Ahhh, there's nothing I love more than the reactionary "[INSERT NAME OF GUY] had an awesome [ONE SINGLE] game last night....we should [SIGN HIM/NEVER HAVE LET HIM GO/GET SOMEONE JUST LIKE HIM]" thread.

jackbrohamer
10-19-2004, 12:00 PM
Ahhh, there's nothing I love more than the reactionary "[INSERT NAME OF GUY] had an awesome [ONE SINGLE] game last night....we should [SIGN HIM/NEVER HAVE LET HIM GO/GET SOMEONE JUST LIKE HIM]" thread.
Seriously. And doesn't KW's signing of Loaiza at a bargain rate last year count, when he went 21-9 2.90 and started the All Star game? Sure he sucked this year but the Sox got way more out of him than Houston has out of this guy so far.

Sell Jerry Sell!
10-19-2004, 12:07 PM
pitching in the pressure packed alcs was:

Tom Gordon
Esteban Loiaza
Tanyon Sturtze
Keith Foulke
Alan Embree

Jerry_Manuel
10-19-2004, 12:10 PM
Backe used to be an outfielder.

kittle42
10-19-2004, 12:18 PM
pitching in the pressure packed alcs was:

Tom Gordon
Esteban Loiaza
Tanyon Sturtze
Keith Foulke
Alan Embree
High on the list of people I don't regret getting rid of are Loaiza, Sturtze (this guy has sucked for every team but the Yankees), and ESPECIALLY one of the worst LH relievers the Sox ever had - Alan freakin' Embree.

CubKilla
10-19-2004, 12:34 PM
For the White Sox to "pull a Backe", they would need for a relative unknown that they drafted or traded for to help them get to then win and/or keep his team in playoff games.

Since the White Sox aren't going to the playoffs in the foreseeable future, this entire discussion is moot IMHO. Hell, the White Sox can't even groom a usable 5th starter from within their Organization.

CubKilla
10-19-2004, 12:36 PM
High on the list of people I don't regret getting rid of are Loaiza, Sturtze (this guy has sucked for every team but the Yankees), and ESPECIALLY one of the worst LH relievers the Sox ever had - Alan freakin' Embree.
I know where you're coming from. But Embree and Sturtze are filling in in huge spots for their respective teams. What does that say about White Sox coaching.... or lack of it?

Lip Man 1
10-19-2004, 01:29 PM
Daver:

Absolutely no slight to Mark. He's very good. However I think the question was posed (at least how I interpreted it) as when is a Sox farm product going to throw a lights out game in the playoffs.

Mark is not going to have that opportunity at least in the foreseeable futre and perhaps never with the Sox before he becomes a free agent. The Sox can't even beat out the Twins right now for the weakest division in baseball. I think it's a stretch to think they could handle the Yanks or Red Sox even with Mark on the mound.

Lip

OEO Magglio
10-19-2004, 04:18 PM
pitching in the pressure packed alcs was:

Tom Gordon
Esteban Loiaza
Tanyon Sturtze
Keith Foulke
Alan Embree
That's nice, what's that supposed to prove??

nodiggity59
10-19-2004, 04:40 PM
Daver:

Absolutely no slight to Mark. He's very good. However I think the question was posed (at least how I interpreted it) as when is a Sox farm product going to throw a lights out game in the playoffs.


Lip
I thought the question meant when are we going to get blindly lucky with a marginal aging prospect, cause that's all that Backe was before this year. This organization has much deeper failures than not acquiring pitchers with okay arms and little past success who COULD be good. In fact, we have guys like that (Diaz, Grilli, Cotts).

That makes more sense to me because Backe wasn't a Houston prosepect. Now, Oswalt and Miller are both nice pitchers and definitely outshine the Buerhle-Garland combo. To me, that is the indictment of the Sox system, not Brandon "you won't know me next year" Backe.

thepaulbowski
10-19-2004, 04:50 PM
I know where you're coming from. But Embree and Sturtze are filling in in huge spots for their respective teams. What does that say about White Sox coaching.... or lack of it?
Using your reasoning with Sturtze: the coaching on the Cubs, Devil Rays, Blue Jays, Rangers, White Sox and the A's (the team that orginally drafted him) all missed the boat because of a "lack" of coaching. Sure makes sense to me. :?:

oldcomiskey
10-19-2004, 06:14 PM
pitching in the pressure packed alcs was:

Tom Gordon
Esteban Loiaza
Tanyon Sturtze
Keith Foulke
Alan Embree

do you really want Loiaza abd Sturtze back---hell phil garner is mananging in a pressure packed situation yet I wouldnt want him as manager

Lip Man 1
10-19-2004, 06:28 PM
Well I'd take Gordon and Foulke back in a heartbeat. I'd also give serious thought to Embree. The guy throws hard and when the only left handed alternative the Sox have right now is Neil (Mr. Base on Balls) Cotts.....well you'd have to consider it. (I'm assuming that both Wunsch and Schowenweis are gone)

Lip

oldcomiskey
10-19-2004, 07:43 PM
I agree with that--thats why I singled out those who are no good