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View Full Version : How would you handle the Magglio Ordonez situation


gosox41
10-18-2004, 10:15 AM
This discussion was started in another thread and I think it's worthy of it's own.

The question is: How would you handle the Magglio Ordonez situation?


There's been a lot of talk in the papers the last week or so about surgeries in Vienna, Magglio hiring the toughest agent in baseball, who is allowed to examine Magglio's knee etc. Most of us follow the team close enough to know the facts and have an opinion. So what do you do? Do you believe Boras and give him a long term deal for the money he wants without examining the knee? Do you cut ties all together? Do you offer him an incentive laden contract? Do you play these games with Boras? Pretend your KW/JR and are dealing with this.

Here's what I would do:

. Because I think it's ridiculous not to do your due diligence on a player before making investing millions in him I would only negotiate after my docotrs see his knee. I mean if he health weren't an issue then Boras would be inviting everyone andt heir grandmother over to see him. At least that's what I'd think. Assuming he checks out fine I'd offer him a 2 year contract at $5-7 mill per plus another $8-10 mill in incentives because there still may be a long term issue about a bone marrow edema leading to a degenerative knee condition.



Bob

kittle42
10-18-2004, 10:18 AM
Assuming he checks out fine I'd offer him a 2 year contract at $5-7 mill per plus another $8-10 mill in incentives because there still may be a long term issue about a bone marrow edema leading to a degenerative knee condition.



Bob
Then you wouldn't be signing him.

gosox41
10-18-2004, 10:20 AM
Then you wouldn't be signing him.
Probably not. But his agent himself said he's fine. Why would he lie?


Bob

cornball
10-18-2004, 10:25 AM
I think the Sox will show interest publicly, however they have no intentions of resigning Mags. To many unknowns about his health.

Hangar18
10-18-2004, 10:29 AM
I would go the EXTRA MILE #1, to let the Fanbase know that we will explore
every option, turn every stone, to see what we can do about resigning Maggs.
This is important that the fans KNOW Mgmt CARES. Also, the Media needs to know this, instead of writing "what-went-wrong up north" or "who can they sign up north" fluffy articles, they can help, or be FORCED to help.

Thats what I do. If Maggs isnt resigned, and the FANS KNOW THE SOX TRIED HARD, but wasnt worth it/he wouldnt sign, then we dont feel as bad about ourselves or the Mgmt

gosox41
10-18-2004, 10:31 AM
I would go the EXTRA MILE #1, to let the Fanbase know that we will explore
every option, turn every stone, to see what we can do about resigning Maggs.
This is important that the fans KNOW Mgmt CARES. Also, the Media needs to know this, instead of writing "what-went-wrong up north" or "who can they sign up north" fluffy articles, they can help, or be FORCED to help.

Thats what I do. If Maggs isnt resigned, and the FANS KNOW THE SOX TRIED HARD, but wasnt worth it/he wouldnt sign, then we dont feel as bad about ourselves or the Mgmt
Would you be pissed if Magglio was resigned to a long term deal and then after a year or 2 couldn't play anymore? Do you think the Sox have a right to look at Magglio's knee before signing him to any sort of contract, 1 year or 10 years?


Bob

Hangar18
10-18-2004, 10:38 AM
Would you be pissed if Magglio was resigned to a long term deal and then after a year or 2 couldn't play anymore? Do you think the Sox have a right to look at Magglio's knee before signing him to any sort of contract, 1 year or 10 years?


Bob
which is WHY I wrote " ........Maggs isnt resigned, and the Fans Know the SOX tried hard, but realized he wasnt worth it"

idseer
10-18-2004, 10:40 AM
i'll stick to my original plan. sign him to an incentive laden contract but nowhere near the 5 - 6 million you suggest. if he can't play he isn't worth a penny.

i'd offer him ONE million with incentives along the way that equal maybe 12 million. if he plays half a season with magglio numbers he makes about 6 million etc.

i know this most likely means he won't be here. at this point i don't care. i've already reckoned with the fact we'll be magglioless from here on. the sooner we can focus on replacing him the better.

samram
10-18-2004, 10:45 AM
Here's what I would do:

. Because I think it's ridiculous not to do your due diligence on a player before making investing millions in him I would only negotiate after my docotrs see his knee. I mean if he health weren't an issue then Boras would be inviting everyone andt heir grandmother over to see him. At least that's what I'd think. Assuming he checks out fine I'd offer him a 2 year contract at $5-7 mill per plus another $8-10 mill in incentives because there still may be a long term issue about a bone marrow edema leading to a degenerative knee condition.



BobI agree you have to be certain of his status before deciding to resign him, but if he checks out fine, it will take a lot more than $5-7 mil to sign him, and Boras isn't going to agree to more than half of the contract being incentive-based. The question is how healthy is he and what other needs must be addressed. Of course it would be nice to sign a healthy Ordonez and add pitching, etc, etc, but we know the payroll won't be $100 million. So, if he is healthy, I would offer him three years at around $7-9 million, with some incentive, and then perhaps a mutual option for 2008. I don't see why anyone else would offer him a 5-year or longer contract, and if they do, matching it would be taking too great a risk because of the possible knee condition Bob mentioned (assuming an escalating salary schedule).

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 10:56 AM
I would go the EXTRA MILE #1, to let the Fanbase know that we will explore
every option, turn every stone, to see what we can do about resigning Maggs.
This is important that the fans KNOW Mgmt CARES. Also, the Media needs to know this, instead of writing "what-went-wrong up north" or "who can they sign up north" fluffy articles, they can help, or be FORCED to help.

Thats what I do. If Maggs isnt resigned, and the FANS KNOW THE SOX TRIED HARD, but wasnt worth it/he wouldnt sign, then we dont feel as bad about ourselves or the Mgmt
Maybe I'm dense, but I'm not sure what that means. Can you elaborate on "the extra mile"? Is that primarily media/PR (i.e. telling the media that we'll do everything we can to resign him assuming he's healthy)? Or what?

kittle42
10-18-2004, 11:01 AM
i'd offer him ONE million with incentives along the way that equal maybe 12 million. if he plays half a season with magglio numbers he makes about 6 million etc.
Wow. No agent would counsel a client to take that deal.

idseer
10-18-2004, 11:02 AM
Wow. No agent would counsel a client to take that deal.
most agents don't have a player who might not ever play again.

HomeFish
10-18-2004, 11:02 AM
I'll be honest -- I would have signed him to a big contract before the knee injury and "Fire HF" would be the #1 tag on WSI.

Clarkdog
10-18-2004, 11:20 AM
I mean if he health weren't an issue then Boras would be inviting everyone andt heir grandmother over to see him. At least that's what I'd think.
Bob, I think you're dead on here. What is Boras good at? Making baseball owners bid against themselves - not against other owners. A-Rod's deal was Scott Boras creating "the market for A-Rod" to Tom Hicks when the value of the market was grossly overstated. A-Rod's ridiculous deal was due to Hicks' outbidding himself - there wasn't an owner out the that would be saddled with such a bad deal - but Boras created the perception that there was.

Boras will attempt the same thing here. If Maggs will be fine in December why not establish the market for him with a public and open display of his being healthy? Because smaller teams who might look to develop an incentive laden deals will lower the overall asking price for Ordonez. By only haveing the "seriously interested" (read: large payroll teams) parties involved, you're more likely to create a bidding war - or the case where someone might outbid themselves just to secure Maggs - thereby overpaying a player who may not be all that he once was.

If I'm KW, I walk away. If you want the draft picks, offer him arbitration to get the draft picks. Attempt to seek a lower award from the judge given that he only played 50% of thegames and his future still seems in question - offer $11M (80% of his last year's salary). Boras is clearly looking for more.

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 11:21 AM
I'd insist on a conference call or meeting with both Maggs and Boras (so Maggs can hear what you say directly), and start off with the following:

"Maggs, we think you're worth $12-14mil/yr on a 4-5 year deal, and if healthy, we're willing to give that to you. But without some sort of proof that you'll be able to be 100% this year, and that this isn't going to be something that degrades your performance over time, we can't make that offer.

What we can do is make you that offer with incentives, or if we can get a feel for your actual injury status and prognosis, we can work together to structure a deal that makes sense for both sides. In any scenario (even one in which your injury is more serious), we are willing to include production-based incentives that raise the $$$ $14mil/yr.

Now you know our position. If healthy, we're willing to basically come close to or meet your initial demands. The next step is yours: meet with our doctors (or we can select a mutually agreeable independent doctor, if you prefer), or you can decide that you either don't want to be a White Sox anymore or that you're just not willing to provide us the information necessary to make a decision."

I would then publish those comments (not their response, just my comments) in the paper so that the fans & media know what our position is.

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 11:24 AM
If I'm KW, I walk away. If you want the draft picks, offer him arbitration to get the draft picks. Attempt to seek a lower award from the judge given that he only played 50% of thegames and his future still seems in question - offer $11M (80% of his last year's salary). Boras is clearly looking for more.
IMO, if offered, Mags will take the $11mil. I don't have any confidence in his knee at this point, and I think any offers he gets are going to be shorter and lower dollar. I can easily see a scenario where Maggs accepts the arb offer because it's higher than any 2-3 year deal he'd otherwise get. Then he sits out a good portion of the year rehabbing, and tries to re-establish his market value in the 2d half.

At which point we'll have about 257 threads started about how "JR is cheap because he didn't go sign a bigname/high $$ offensive player for the likely event that Maggs couldn't play".

mdep524
10-18-2004, 11:44 AM
IMO, if offered, Mags will take the $11mil. I don't have any confidence in his knee at this point, and I think any offers he gets are going to be shorter and lower dollar. I can easily see a scenario where Maggs accepts the arb offer because it's higher than any 2-3 year deal he'd otherwise get. Then he sits out a good portion of the year rehabbing, and tries to re-establish his market value in the 2d half.

At which point we'll have about 257 threads started about how "JR is cheap because he didn't go sign a bigname/high $$ offensive player for the likely event that Maggs couldn't play".
I don't think it is a sure thing that Maggs will take an $11 mil arbitration offer. I get the feeling that isn't good enough for Scott Boras- he wants a multiyear offer, and I bet he feels there are enough suckers out there to do whatever he says. The Mets and Orioles quickly come to mind.

I was a huge Magglio fan, and even though I've lost some respect for him with this Boras move (as well as his midseason contract offer rejection), I would've loved to see him back. But the reality of the situation is the intelligent, objective approach would be to just let him walk. If you're going to pay big bucks, have it be for something that is closer to a sure thing.

The reason we want to hold on to Maggs so dearly is because he is our guy- he's came up through our system and we've had him for 7 years. This reason does hold some water with me- I don't want a Yankees-like team of hired guns that I have no emotional attachment to, but it doesn't hold enough water to give Magglio big time guaranteed money.

So, I would offer Maggs a one- or two-year at about $6 mil/per plus incentives. Anything higher than that is not worth the risk, but I'm sure someone will come up with a 3 year, $33 mil guaranteed deal, and Boras won't settle for anything less. Bottom line, I wouldn't waste much energy talking or thinking about Mags coming back to the Sox. It won't happen, and that's the way it should be.

eshunn2001
10-18-2004, 11:53 AM
I would hire the same guy Tanya Harding did, to club Boras Over the head with an Easton. That is just me though.

gosox41
10-18-2004, 12:07 PM
which is WHY I wrote " ........Maggs isnt resigned, and the Fans Know the SOX tried hard, but realized he wasnt worth it"
I'll rephrase. How do you know if the Sox tried hard? KW's going to come out and say one thing. Boras will probably go out of his way to make the Sox look bad and say they don't have an interest to enrage people. What is 'trying hard' to you?


Bob

gosox41
10-18-2004, 12:15 PM
IMO, if offered, Mags will take the $11mil. I don't have any confidence in his knee at this point, and I think any offers he gets are going to be shorter and lower dollar. I can easily see a scenario where Maggs accepts the arb offer because it's higher than any 2-3 year deal he'd otherwise get. Then he sits out a good portion of the year rehabbing, and tries to re-establish his market value in the 2d half.

At which point we'll have about 257 threads started about how "JR is cheap because he didn't go sign a bigname/high $$ offensive player for the likely event that Maggs couldn't play".
Exactly why I started this thread. Anyone can complain after the fact(not you), but most (and again not you) refuse to give their opinion at the time feigning ignorance. But you better believe they will be the first in line to rip JR.

I get ripped on a lot here for giving opinions on moves when they happen or right before (see reaction to my Jamie Burke's call up over Borchard/Reed when even though Burke wasn't officially called up it was reported by several news sites including whitesox.com that he was the guy.) One person even swore at me and called me names for voicing an opinion because the move hadn't played out yet. God forbid I should see something I don't like and post it on an internet site instead of just complaining.

Enough of the rant. I just want to see what people's opinions are on this issue. It's a big issue effecting the Sox.



Bob

alohafri
10-18-2004, 12:15 PM
Probably not. But his agent himself said he's fine. Why would he lie?


Bob
Boras, the Dr. Fine of "Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard" has said that Magglio's bone marrow edema would be cured by December.

He is already hinting that he will not allow the White Sox trainers or doctors to examine his knee unless they prove that they are "serious suitors."

Magglio is gone, ladies and gentlemen. I don't begrudge anyone from getting what they can in a free agent market, but by hiring Boras while having the injury he has, Ordonez could be pricing himself out of a job.

steff
10-18-2004, 12:18 PM
Maybe I'm dense, but I'm not sure what that means. Can you elaborate on "the extra mile"? Is that primarily media/PR (i.e. telling the media that we'll do everything we can to resign him assuming he's healthy)? Or what?


You're not dense. In short it means that Henry is walking around with tin foil on his head again...

:rolleyes:

steff
10-18-2004, 12:20 PM
I'll rephrase. How do you know if the Sox tried hard? KW's going to come out and say one thing. Boras will probably go out of his way to make the Sox look bad and say they don't have an interest to enrage people. What is 'trying hard' to you?


Bob

They could video/audio tape the call/offer to Maggs, play it on national TV, and Henry still wouldn't believe it.

Brian26
10-18-2004, 12:25 PM
Wow. No agent would counsel a client to take that deal.

Plus, there are organizations who have the financial means to throw money at a player as a gamble. The Yankees could easily offer Mags a huge deal with the chance he may not play again until 2006. It's a gamble the White Sox organization can't take. That's, unfortunately for Sox fans, the political and economic climate of the game right now. We have to deal with it.

gosox41
10-18-2004, 12:27 PM
They could video/audio tape the call/offer to Maggs, play it on national TV, and Henry still wouldn't believe it.
So are you saying that no matter what JR does he's not going to please certain people?

There's no Homer Simpson picture that I saw, but I'll quote him anyway:

"Interesting theory. I wish to subscribe to your news letter."


Bob

steff
10-18-2004, 12:30 PM
So are you saying that no matter what JR does he's not going to please certain people?

There's no Homer Simpson picture that I saw, but I'll quote him anyway:

"Interesting theory. I wish to subscribe to your news letter."


Bob

Some folks are just born complainers. Hell.. even the most hated fans of Jerry can give him credit when credit is due.. not Henry. Trains late.. Jerry's fault. Milk's spoiled.. Jerry's fault. Toilet's stopped up.. Jerry's fault..

Henry gets a headache and he blames Jerry because the headache is likely from Henry thinking about how much he hates Jerry..

:rolleyes:

gosox41
10-18-2004, 12:30 PM
They could video/audio tape the call/offer to Maggs, play it on national TV, and Henry still wouldn't believe it.
Maybe this guy can help reassure Hangar:

:sahaf



Bob

jabrch
10-18-2004, 12:31 PM
Some folks are just born complainers. Hell.. even the most hated fans of Jerry can give him credit when credit is due.. not Henry. Trains late.. Jerry's fault. Milk's spoiled.. Jerry's fault. Toilet's stopped up.. Jerry's fault..

Henry gets a headache and he blames Jerry because the headache is likely from Henry thinking about how much he hates Jerry..

:rolleyes:
LMAO

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 12:48 PM
Assuming Kenny wants to re-sign Ordonez (I'm not so sure that's true), I would call Boras and say:

"We're interested in making an offer to Ordonez. Here are the terms of the offer we contemplate making. But we will not make a firm offer until he undergoes an examination by our own doctor and we are satisfied that there are no health issues that would impact that offer. Such examination must take place soon enough for us to make a decision in advance of the arbitration deadline."

I doubt that any other team will do any more.

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 12:53 PM
Plus, there are organizations who have the financial means to throw money at a player as a gamble. The Yankees could easily offer Mags a huge deal with the chance he may not play again until 2006. It's a gamble the White Sox organization can't take. That's, unfortunately for Sox fans, the political and economic climate of the game right now. We have to deal with it.I doubt even the Yankees would offer big money without being sure he can play next year. With Lieber they gave him a two year deal paying him only about $1M (IIRC) for 2003 knowing he wouldn't play that year.

duke of dorwood
10-18-2004, 12:57 PM
I would NOT sign him-too much uncertainty. Plus, we really havent won anything with him-spend that 14 mil plus on some depth.

Lip Man 1
10-18-2004, 01:04 PM
To echo Brian's comments the Yankees paid Jon Leiber three million dollars basically not to play last year. He is paying dividens this year of course.

Lip

jabrch
10-18-2004, 02:12 PM
This discussion was started in another thread and I think it's worthy of it's own.

The question is: How would you handle the Magglio Ordonez situation?




Bob
Tell the greedy bastard to kiss off and go to hell (aka NY Mets). There are other options out there who would take our 14mm (Drew? Beltran? Pavano? Clement? etc.)

jshanahanjr
10-18-2004, 03:47 PM
I would offer him arbitration and have him prove to the world he he is healthy. He could then go out next fall and get his big pay day from either the Sox or some other team. I don't know if he would go for it, but that's what I would want if I were Maggs and going to be 100% healthy.

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 03:49 PM
I would offer him arbitration and have him prove to the world he he is healthy. He could then go out next fall and get his big pay day from either the Sox or some other team. I don't know if he would go for it, but that's what I would want if I were Maggs and going to be 100% healthy.
IMO, you'd end up with an $11m paperweight as Maggs rehabs into the first part of the year with his target being a return in the 2d half to show that he's healthy in order to pump up his value. That in turn, combined with the impact of that contract on other offseason moves, would kill the team.

jabrch
10-18-2004, 04:19 PM
IMO, you'd end up with an $11m paperweight as Maggs rehabs into the first part of the year with his target being a return in the 2d half to show that he's healthy in order to pump up his value. That in turn, combined with the impact of that contract on other offseason moves, would kill the team.
Exactly...you can't offer him arbitration - because he'd almost surely accept it, take his 20% pay cut, and run...

StillMissOzzie
10-18-2004, 04:21 PM
I doubt even the Yankees would offer big money without being sure he can play next year. With Lieber they gave him a two year deal paying him only about $1M (IIRC) for 2003 knowing he wouldn't play that year.Yep, the Yankees are the only team in MLB that was willing to pay Lieber the MLB minimum to rehab for them in 2003, just to be available at appx $3M for 2004. Nobody else would either be willing to take the gamble that he'd ever pitch again, or to write off the loss if he wasn't.

Certainly not the Sox.

To get back to Maggs, then, there may be a team out there willing to pay a token rehab salary for 2005, with a BIG boost built in for 2006. Again, it won't be the Sox.

SMO
:gulp:

Jjav829
10-18-2004, 04:25 PM
I'd pay him a couple million to help me convince Carlos Beltran that the White Sox are the best team for him to play 162+ games for next year. Then I'd start spreading word that his knee checked out okay by my doctors and that he appears to be healthy, thus increasing Maggs chances of landing a good contract elsewhere. Maybe not the most ethical approach but we each get what we want. One hand washes the other....:D:

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 04:29 PM
Yep, the Yankees are the only team in MLB that was willing to pay Lieber the MLB minimum to rehab for them in 2003, just to be available at appx $3M for 2004. Nobody else would either be willing to take the gamble that he'd ever pitch again, or to write off the loss if he wasn't.

Certainly not the Sox.

To get back to Maggs, then, there may be a team out there willing to pay a token rehab salary for 2005, with a BIG boost built in for 2006. Again, it won't be the Sox.

SMO
:gulp:
I'm not so sure about that. I'd think the Sox would be willing to do that provided there was some sort of option or incentive basis for 2006 in case he doesn't play.

However what I think will happen is that Maggs will end up wiht a similar deal from another team, because Boras won't give the Sox any access to him prior to the arb deadline, then he'll find out that no other team is going to give him the offer he wants because of the injury concerns and he'll end up settling for the type of offer I note above.

Then, of course, between vocal fans and Chicago media, the historical viewpoint will be that the Sox were too cheap to offer Maggs anything and we "lost him" to a pretty low $$$, incentive-based deal. The facts won't matter as much as the final outcome.

idseer
10-18-2004, 04:30 PM
I'd pay him a couple million to help me convince Carlos Beltran that the White Sox are the best team for him to play 162+ games for next year. Then I'd start spreading word that his knee checked out okay by my doctors and that he appears to be healthy, thus increasing Maggs chances of landing a good contract elsewhere. Maybe not the most ethical approach but we each get what we want. One hand washes the other....:D:
i suddenly feel the need to wash my hands.

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 04:47 PM
I'm not so sure about that. I'd think the Sox would be willing to do that provided there was some sort of option or incentive basis for 2006 in case he doesn't play.

However what I think will happen is that Maggs will end up wiht a similar deal from another team, because Boras won't give the Sox any access to him prior to the arb deadline, then he'll find out that no other team is going to give him the offer he wants because of the injury concerns and he'll end up settling for the type of offer I note above.

Then, of course, between vocal fans and Chicago media, the historical viewpoint will be that the Sox were too cheap to offer Maggs anything and we "lost him" to a pretty low $$$, incentive-based deal. The facts won't matter as much as the final outcome.It makes no sense for Boras to exclude the Sox since it's in his interest to have as many suitors as possible. What works against the Sox is that Maggs' true condition may not be sufficiently settled before the arb deadline, and I don't see him signing a Lieber-like "rehab deal" until it becomes clear that's the best he can do - probably much later. After the arb deadline, the Sox can't negotiate with him until May 1.

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 05:17 PM
It makes no sense for Boras to exclude the Sox since it's in his interest to have as many suitors as possible. What works against the Sox is that Maggs' true condition may not be sufficiently settled before the arb deadline, and I don't see him signing a Lieber-like "rehab deal" until it becomes clear that's the best he can do - probably much later. After the arb deadline, the Sox can't negotiate with him until May 1.
Maybe I wasn't clear, but that was exactly my point. Bora$ won't let the Sox look at Maggs knee until it's healed (or if he has his way, until they make a big offer). The Sox won't make a big offer until they know what's up. I also can easily see Boras playing chicken with the Sox and not providing them any info on the situation so that the Sox have to make a decision without the info.

Lip Man 1
10-18-2004, 06:46 PM
But the only way he could do that Flight was if he was sure he had other offers. (Which I'm sure he'll get...)

Lip

Daver
10-18-2004, 06:51 PM
Personally?

I'd offer him arbitration and pray like hell that he refuses it.

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 09:19 PM
But the only way he could do that Flight was if he was sure he had other offers. (Which I'm sure he'll get...)

Lip
Will he get an offer? Sure. Will it be anything close to what he wants - it depend 100% on the knee. So far, it doesn't look good as there's a ton of circumstantial evidence indicating that it's a serious injury with long-term implications. I'll bet that no team gives him anything more than a "flier" type of deal without a good examination, and given the way things look - an exam is going to result in something either backloaded or incentive-based.

You think he'll get something close to what he's looking for? If true, then the Sox should 100% offer arbitration because he'd be a fool to accept it. Of course, IMO only a fool plays the games that he's playing if he is indeed healthy or close to it - his value only goes up if he lets people look at that knee.

The phrase "Methinks he doth protest too much" comes to mind.

Paulwny
10-20-2004, 11:56 AM
Any team making an offer will have an out clause,"upon evaluation and passage of a physical by the team's medical staff".

I can understand Boras and Maggs limiting the field to only serious bidders. If the medical tests take 2-3 days Maggs would spend ~ a month traveling from city to city for these evaluations. They realize that there are possibly 3-4 teams who would be willing to give Maggs the $$ he's seeking. They don't want the pretenders wasting their time.

Ol' No. 2
10-20-2004, 02:16 PM
Any team making an offer will have an out clause,"upon evaluation and passage of a physical by the team's medical staff".

I can understand Boras and Maggs limiting the field to only serious bidders. If the medical tests take 2-3 days Maggs would spend ~ a month traveling from city to city for these evaluations. They realize that there are possibly 3-4 teams who would be willing to give Maggs the $$ he's seeking. They don't want the pretenders wasting their time.Exactly. Another angle just occurred to me. There's no way the Sox will offer Maggs arbitration without having their doctors examine him. Boras knows this. He also knows that Maggs will be more marketable if prospective teams don't have to think about giving up draft choices. Hence, Boras won't let Sox doctors anywhere near him.

Flight #24
10-20-2004, 02:17 PM
Exactly. Another angle just occurred to me. There's no way the Sox will offer Maggs arbitration without having their doctors examine him. Boras knows this. He also knows that Maggs will be more marketable if prospective teams don't have to think about giving up draft choices. Hence, Boras won't let Sox doctors anywhere near him.
Good point, yet another way in which Bora$$ tries to work the system and the team gets screwed.

Ol' No. 2
10-20-2004, 03:10 PM
Good point, yet another way in which Bora$$ tries to work the system and the team gets screwed.What's the beef? It may be fashionable to blame Boras for every ill known to man, but in this case, he's working the system to benefit his client, which is what he's getting paid to do. Even though the Sox do get screwed, I can't say it's Boras' fault. He's just doing his job. If anything, it's the fault of the system.

Flight #24
10-20-2004, 03:22 PM
What's the beef? It may be fashionable to blame Boras for every ill known to man, but in this case, he's working the system to benefit his client, which is what he's getting paid to do. Even though the Sox do get screwed, I can't say it's Boras' fault. He's just doing his job. If anything, it's the fault of the system.
Well, as much as I'd like to, I can't fault Boras for using the system to his advantage. Much like I can't blame Steinbrenner for using the system to his advantage and spending a ton of $$$$ based on his gigantic revenue base.

But you have to admit that it's kind of slimy if not unethical to withhold information from a team in order to pump up some perceived value.

Ol' No. 2
10-20-2004, 03:33 PM
Well, as much as I'd like to, I can't fault Boras for using the system to his advantage. Much like I can't blame Steinbrenner for using the system to his advantage and spending a ton of $$$$ based on his gigantic revenue base.

But you have to admit that it's kind of slimy if not unethical to withhold information from a team in order to pump up some perceived value.He doesn't make the rules.

Flight #24
10-20-2004, 03:56 PM
He doesn't make the rules.
No one makes rules that you can't circumvent. It's pretty near impossible for MLB to create a rule like: "While still under contract, a player must submit to medical examinations at management's request". Plus, I'm sure if such a rule existed that Maggs would schedule a trip and suddenly get ill and be unable to fly or something.

Just because it's not specifically banned in the rules doesn't mean it's ethical.

Ol' No. 2
10-20-2004, 04:21 PM
No one makes rules that you can't circumvent. It's pretty near impossible for MLB to create a rule like: "While still under contract, a player must submit to medical examinations at management's request". Plus, I'm sure if such a rule existed that Maggs would schedule a trip and suddenly get ill and be unable to fly or something.

Just because it's not specifically banned in the rules doesn't mean it's ethical.If you hire a lawyer to represent you in court, you sure don't expect him to be helping the opposition. Agents work for the players. That's where their responsibilities lie. He is duty bound to do what's in his client's best interest, within the rules that are set out.

dooda
10-20-2004, 04:26 PM
I'm from Orlando, and the Magic are dealing with the aftermath of a very similar type of situation with Grant Hill. The Magic signed Grant Hill after their battery of doctors signed off on his ankle. We're 4 years into an $87 million deal, and Grant Hill has had 4 surgeries. He has played 47 games in 4 years.

Maggs was an All Star, and he may very well be again. BUT, if were my money he gets an incentive ladden offer that will allow him to get the kind of money he wants if he returns to 90% of his former self, but protects me if he is just a shell of his former self.

Boras won't go for this type of deal unless there are no other offers.

The Magic are in salary cap hell with the Grant Hill fiasco. If JR keeps the Sox on the same type of budget as in the past the Sox will be ham-strung by a contract that is anywhere close to what a healthy Maggs would deserve.

I'd hate to lose Maggs if he's truly back to normal, but in my mind the risk out weighs the benefit.

Take the $14 million Maggs is getting and sign a couple of pitchers or a shortstop. Or heaven forbid up the ante and take a shot at Carlos Beltran.

steff
10-20-2004, 04:37 PM
If you hire a lawyer to represent you in court, you sure don't expect him to be helping the opposition. Agents work for the players. That's where their responsibilities lie. He is duty bound to do what's in his client's best interest, within the rules that are set out.

Definitely don't expect him to help the opposition.. but the crap with this is that Maggs is still the Sox "property" and they have been asking to check him out.. he's been avoiding them. He's being very shady, IMO.

Tragg
10-20-2004, 05:47 PM
I'd insist on a conference call or meeting with both Maggs and Boras (so Maggs can hear what you say directly), and start off with the following:

"Maggs, we think you're worth $12-14mil/yr on a 4-5 year deal, and if healthy, we're willing to give that to you. But without some sort of proof that you'll be able to be 100% this year, and that this isn't going to be something that degrades your performance over time, we can't make that offer.

What we can do is make you that offer with incentives, or if we can get a feel for your actual injury status and prognosis, we can work together to structure a deal that makes sense for both sides. In any scenario (even one in which your injury is more serious), we are willing to include production-based incentives that raise the $$$ $14mil/yr.

ON this team, right now, I wouldn't pay 12MM or 14MM for a healthy Magglio. We have better uses for that $$, imo.