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Hangar18
10-18-2004, 10:34 AM
Jerry Reinsdorfs "Favorite" type of player?
" ........ a player who isnt all about the money". thats a direct quote
from a story on his thoughts regarding the retirement of Robin Ventura.
Taken out of context? maybe. discuss.

Foulke29
10-18-2004, 10:57 AM
Before reading your post, I was gonig to post a one word answer to your inquiry:

Cheap!

Now I'll post a few words. I just ripped on Magglio - big time - in another thread, and for a change I am going to defend Jerry.

Insurance companies aren't allowing for protection/liability policies like they used to on players. This was the number one reason that owners paid big dollars back in the day - because if the player was hurt, insurance paide the salary. He has to protect his interests. He did the right thing by offering a damn good contract to a guy that 'paid his dues' in the White Sox organization and Magglio peed all over it, and now Jer' is feeling like a dodged a bullet. Maybe that word should be shrewd?

I mean let's look at other big dollar contracts that have been signed in the last 5 years and whether their worth it:

Kevin Brown: No
Alex Rodriguez: No - numbers are worth it, but no one's worth quarter of a billion
Barry Bonds: Kinda
Sammy: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha no ha ha ha ha ha ha
Mussina: No
Neagle: Please?
Hampton: What - ever
Manny: Nope
Big Unit: Gotta go yes on this one
Schilling: Yep - best bridesmaid ever (always the runner up for Cy Young)
Griffey Jr. - Nope.

and I'm sure the list could go on and on. My point is - maybe shrewd is the Jerry word of the day.

gosox41
10-18-2004, 11:00 AM
Before reading your post, I was gonig to post a one word answer to your inquiry:

Cheap!

Now I'll post a few words. I just ripped on Magglio - big time - in another thread, and for a change I am going to defend Jerry.

Insurance companies aren't allowing for protection/liability policies like they used to on players. This was the number one reason that owners paid big dollars back in the day - because if the player was hurt, insurance paide the salary. He has to protect his interests. He did the right thing by offering a damn good contract to a guy that 'paid his dues' in the White Sox organization and Magglio peed all over it, and now Jer' is feeling like a dodged a bullet. Maybe that word should be shrewd?

I mean let's look at other big dollar contracts that have been signed in the last 5 years and whether their worth it:

Kevin Brown: No
Alex Rodriguez: No - numbers are worth it, but no one's worth quarter of a billion
Barry Bonds: Kinda
Sammy: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha no ha ha ha ha ha ha
Mussina: No
Neagle: Please?
Hampton: What - ever
Manny: Nope
Big Unit: Gotta go yes on this one
Schilling: Yep - best bridesmaid ever (always the runner up for Cy Young)
Griffey Jr. - Nope.

and I'm sure the list could go on and on. My point is - maybe shrewd is the Jerry word of the day.
You forgot the great Chan Ho Park. And as much people hate it, it was a good think McDowell, Alvarez, and Fernandez weren't resign to 5 year contracts.


Bob

Foulke29
10-18-2004, 11:13 AM
You forgot the great Chan Ho Park. And as much people hate it, it was a good think McDowell, Alvarez, and Fernandez weren't resign to 5 year contracts.


Bob
Though you're right, Bob, they were outside of the last five years (actually Alvarez looks like a pretty good deal right now - wearing that Dodgers uniform).

Hangar18
10-18-2004, 11:22 AM
Mr Reinsdorf may have made some good "business" decisions regarding the NON resigning of players, and probably took a hit PR wise with SOX fans (the media was too busy gushing about Darren Baker and playing GM for the cubs) but
yes, they look good down the line. My Problem with uncle Jerry, was then he DIDNT get anyone comparable to replace the players he let go. :angry:

gosox41
10-18-2004, 11:24 AM
Mr Reinsdorf may have made some good "business" decisions regarding the NON resigning of players, and probably took a hit PR wise with SOX fans (the media was too busy gushing about Darren Baker and playing GM for the cubs) but
yes, they look good down the line. My Problem with uncle Jerry, was then he DIDNT get anyone comparable to replace the players he let go. :angry:
True. This again was more then 5 years ago, but the did sign Navarro over Clemens. Granted Navarro was coming off a solid season and was Clemens struggle all year with shoulder issues.


Bob

Foulke29
10-18-2004, 11:25 AM
Mr Reinsdorf may have made some good "business" decisions regarding the NON resigning of players, and probably took a hit PR wise with SOX fans (the media was too busy gushing about Darren Baker and playing GM for the cubs) but
yes, they look good down the line. My Problem with uncle Jerry, was then he DIDNT get anyone comparable to replace the players he let go. :angry:
Dear, naive Mr. Hangar18:

The talent was in the farm system. It was always in the farm system.

:bandance:

Lip Man 1
10-18-2004, 01:43 PM
When the White Sox were pissing away the Wild Card in 1996 because their 5th starters were awful (sound familiar) they sure could have used McDowell's double figure wins couldn't they?

Oh by the way, he also won in double figures in 1995.

It's interesting that the White Sox always feel (and they have some support on these boards obviously) that they 'can't afford' to take any risks on players.

It's obvious though that other clubs feel the can afford to take those risks.

Let's see the Sox haven't been to a World Series in 45 years...they haven't even won a home playoff game in 45 years.

Connect the dots people.

Lip

duke of dorwood
10-18-2004, 02:01 PM
Mr Reinsdorf may have made some good "business" decisions regarding the NON resigning of players, and probably took a hit PR wise with SOX fans (the media was too busy gushing about Darren Baker and playing GM for the cubs) but
yes, they look good down the line. My Problem with uncle Jerry, was then he DIDNT get anyone comparable to replace the players he let go. :angry:
Correctamundo

Our biggest loss was Ray Durham-and he was never replaced

California Sox
10-18-2004, 02:58 PM
It's interesting that the White Sox always feel (and they have some support on these boards obviously) that they 'can't afford' to take any risks on players.

It's obvious though that other clubs feel the can afford to take those risks.

Other clubs can afford to take those risks. Look at the Yankees and Red Sox for instance. Both own their own regional sports networks and even with payrolls in excess of $170 and $125 million respectively and huge revenue sharing payments, both are more profitable than the Sox. Why? Their revenue streams are far far far far greater than the Sox. So they can afford to eat their mistakes. A perfect example of what happens when a mid-market team makes a horrendous mistake is the Chan Ho Park signing in Texas. They paid him so much money and he was so bad that he single-handedly assured them of three consecutive last place finishes.

A team like the Sox needs to be smart in order to compete, because major mistakes will haunt. Also, the Sox need continual infusion of cheap, major-league ready players from their system, because there's no way for them to afford to keep everyone. I know "you've got to spend money to make money," but since when is signing expensive players a guarantee of success? I mean, the Yankees are rich and smart, but would you really want to root for a team like the Mets?

shagar69
10-18-2004, 03:11 PM
Before reading your post, I was gonig to post a one word answer to your inquiry:

Cheap!

Now I'll post a few words. I just ripped on Magglio - big time - in another thread, and for a change I am going to defend Jerry.

Insurance companies aren't allowing for protection/liability policies like they used to on players. This was the number one reason that owners paid big dollars back in the day - because if the player was hurt, insurance paide the salary. He has to protect his interests. He did the right thing by offering a damn good contract to a guy that 'paid his dues' in the White Sox organization and Magglio peed all over it, and now Jer' is feeling like a dodged a bullet. Maybe that word should be shrewd?

I mean let's look at other big dollar contracts that have been signed in the last 5 years and whether their worth it:

Kevin Brown: No
Alex Rodriguez: No - numbers are worth it, but no one's worth quarter of a billion
Barry Bonds: Kinda
Sammy: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha no ha ha ha ha ha ha
Mussina: No
Neagle: Please?
Hampton: What - ever
Manny: Nope
Big Unit: Gotta go yes on this one
Schilling: Yep - best bridesmaid ever (always the runner up for Cy Young)
Griffey Jr. - Nope.

and I'm sure the list could go on and on. My point is - maybe shrewd is the Jerry word of the day.
bonds is only "kinda" worth it? youre joking right? you do know that barry bonds is the most dominating player in the game and maybe in sports and that he can single handedly change a game by altering how a P pitches or by just jacking one outta the park?

maurice
10-18-2004, 03:40 PM
My Problem with uncle Jerry, was then he DIDNT get anyone comparable to replace the players he let go. :angry:Outstanding point. It's real hard to improve your place in the standings when you keep replacing productive major leaguers with the likes of Chris Snopek.

During JR's reign, the Sox have cut loose (often for good reasons) some pretty good players and immediately replaced them with mediocre or worse players. Considering position players alone:
Fisk --> Karkovice
Durham --> Jimenez
Guillen --> Caruso
Ventura --> Snopek / Norton
Baines (when he was still good) --> Cordero
One Dog --> Lewis

Some holes eventually were filled by good, young players like Uribe and Rowand, but JR was too cheap to maintain quality stop-gaps in the meanwhile. Other holes remain to this day, rendering the Sox chronicly unable to win a weak division. There's an excellent chance that the greatest hitter in Sox history will be gone at the end of '05. In fact, I'll likely need to add Ordonez, and Konerko or Lee to this list even sooner than that.

Break the chain, JR. Authorize a budget big enough to get Beltran, two pitchers, a catcher, and another quality IF. (We need a color to represent the combination of teal and deeppink . . . such a huge pipedream that it MUST be sarcastic. Deepteal? Deep-deep-deeppink?)

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 03:49 PM
When the White Sox were pissing away the Wild Card in 1996 because their 5th starters were awful (sound familiar) they sure could have used McDowell's double figure wins couldn't they?

Oh by the way, he also won in double figures in 1995.

It's interesting that the White Sox always feel (and they have some support on these boards obviously) that they 'can't afford' to take any risks on players.

It's obvious though that other clubs feel the can afford to take those risks.

Let's see the Sox haven't been to a World Series in 45 years...they haven't even won a home playoff game in 45 years.

Connect the dots people.

Lip
So by your logic Lip, any price is a good one if the player has even marginally positive performance? At the price Blackjack wanted, he'd better have delivered more than 10-14 wins.

But of course, in your world where there are no financial constraints, that wouldn't be a problem, right - you just go sign someone else for another big contract.

alohafri
10-18-2004, 03:51 PM
Before reading your post, I was gonig to post a one word answer to your inquiry:

Cheap!

Now I'll post a few words. I just ripped on Magglio - big time - in another thread, and for a change I am going to defend Jerry.

Insurance companies aren't allowing for protection/liability policies like they used to on players. This was the number one reason that owners paid big dollars back in the day - because if the player was hurt, insurance paide the salary. He has to protect his interests. He did the right thing by offering a damn good contract to a guy that 'paid his dues' in the White Sox organization and Magglio peed all over it, and now Jer' is feeling like a dodged a bullet. Maybe that word should be shrewd?

I mean let's look at other big dollar contracts that have been signed in the last 5 years and whether their worth it:

Kevin Brown: No
Alex Rodriguez: No - numbers are worth it, but no one's worth quarter of a billion
Barry Bonds: Kinda
Sammy: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha no ha ha ha ha ha ha
Mussina: No
Neagle: Please?
Hampton: What - ever
Manny: Nope
Big Unit: Gotta go yes on this one
Schilling: Yep - best bridesmaid ever (always the runner up for Cy Young)
Griffey Jr. - Nope.

and I'm sure the list could go on and on. My point is - maybe shrewd is the Jerry word of the day.
The problem is not the high end players that Reinsdork refuses to go after, it is the "second-tier" guys who are the true difference makers that Reinsdork doesn't give them market value. Instead, he overpays (based on their performance) for clowns like Todd Ritchie and Jamie Navarro, then says, "see what happens when I give players big contracts?"

jabrch
10-18-2004, 03:51 PM
So by your logic Lip, any price is a good one if the player has even marginally positive performance? At the price Blackjack wanted, he'd better have delivered more than 10-14 wins.

But of course, in your world where there are no financial constraints, that wouldn't be a problem, right - you just go sign someone else for another big contract.
sure - why not? Go into debt, force your partners into debt - and get fired from your job as chairman, don't worry a bout how much you are spending JR. Lip doesn't care how much money he and Mrs. Lip spend - so you should live your life the same way.

Lip Man 1
10-18-2004, 04:43 PM
Jabrch:

Exactly...death is only a breath away. Live now while you can. Although in fairness I wasn't always that way my philosophy changed when at age 37 I was fired after 12 years at KNOW-TV because a new G.M. wanted to make a change. That's when I realized there is no loyalty, that nothing is promised tomorrow.

Lip

jabrch
10-18-2004, 05:22 PM
Exactly...death is only a breath away.

Lip
Don't consider a career as a motivational speaker or as a hospital socialworker.

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 05:32 PM
Jabrch:

Exactly...death is only a breath away. Live now while you can. Although in fairness I wasn't always that way my philosophy changed when at age 37 I was fired after 12 years at KNOW-TV because a new G.M. wanted to make a change. That's when I realized there is no loyalty, that nothing is promised tomorrow.

Lip
The only problem being that sometimes, you DO get tomorrow, and that philosophy can leave that tomorrow quite difficult and/or painful. Not to mention that it all changes if/when you have family dependent on you.

Lip Man 1
10-18-2004, 07:51 PM
Jabrch:

As long as you don't consider going into politics...

Flight:

Like I told Bob, all things being equal I wish things hadn't worked out that way but they did and I adjusted accordingly. Once I actually though that if you give people half a chance they'll do the right thing. I got burned badly by that and learned from it. Anyway like I said, what are the creditors going to do? Reach into the pockets of my pants when I'm in a coffin?

At best I've got maybe twenty years, God willing.

Lip

Mohoney
10-18-2004, 08:07 PM
The only problem being that sometimes, you DO get tomorrow
In Lip's defense:

We have gone 87 years without getting "tomorrow".

Nothing that's going on right now makes me believe that we will get "tomorrow" in 2005.

I'm sorry, but I can see Hangar's and Lip's points. This crap is getting old already.

ewokpelts
10-18-2004, 10:13 PM
You forgot the great Chan Ho Park. And as much people hate it, it was a good think McDowell, Alvarez, and Fernandez weren't resign to 5 year contracts.


Bobif mcdowell wasnt with the indians in teh late 90's, he wouldnt have use dthier doctors for his elbow surgery...they cut the wrong tendon..thus ruining his career.

Lip Man 1
10-18-2004, 11:59 PM
Actually according to the interview I did with Jack they traumatized a nerve in the muscle of his forearm when they were scoping his elbow. Apparently the instrument hit it or nicked it somehow.

I'm assuming their was a hell of a lawsuit over that act of stupidity.
Lip

mrwag
10-19-2004, 09:41 AM
Spending big money is good, so long as it's spent well. Giving 5 mil to guys like Valentin is stupid. Gambles are one thing, but stupidity is another.

gosox41
10-19-2004, 10:10 AM
Jabrch:

As long as you don't consider going into politics...

Flight:

Like I told Bob, all things being equal I wish things hadn't worked out that way but they did and I adjusted accordingly. Once I actually though that if you give people half a chance they'll do the right thing. I got burned badly by that and learned from it. Anyway like I said, what are the creditors going to do? Reach into the pockets of my pants when I'm in a coffin?

At best I've got maybe twenty years, God willing.

Lip
Lip,
Not everyone is evil and greedy.


Bob

Lip Man 1
10-19-2004, 01:37 PM
Bob:

You could have fooled me. And I base that on personal and professional experience.

Lip

bigfoot
10-21-2004, 12:48 AM
Lip,
Not everyone is evil and greedy.


Bob
We are talking about MLB owners here aren't we, not Mother Teresa?

JKryl
10-23-2004, 06:37 PM
Anyone ever notice how these threads seem to get a life of their own, and just wander off on a different tangent?