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oldcomiskey
10-17-2004, 09:27 AM
I dont see the love affair with Juan uribe---could someone please sxplain it to me?? Jose has something called RANGE--which means on average hes gonna commit more errors because he gets to more ground balls than anyone this side of Angel Berroa--and I srill say if you take away that great first two months then Uribe hits about what Jose hits--without the 26 HRs

Jjav829
10-17-2004, 09:41 AM
I dont see the love affair with Juan uribe---could someone please sxplain it to me?? Jose has something called RANGE--which means on average hes gonna commit more errors because he gets to more ground balls than anyone this side of Angel Berroa--and I srill say if you take away that great first two months then Uribe hits about what Jose hits--without the 26 HRsUribe's range is fine. It isn't like he is Kelly Dransfeldt out there. Uribe gets to plenty of balls. And when he gets to them, he's more than likely going to make the play.

Uribe had 2 very good months. April and September. In both months he had an OPS over 1.000. In May and August he posted the same OPS of .884. Both very good months for him. He got on base a little less than you'd like to see in August, but it still was a decent month for him. June and July were really the bad months. Hell, you wanna make this "take away the two months" argument, I'll reverse it on you. Take away June and July and we're talking about him as a breakout shortstop who has clearly won a starting spot somewhere on the field. So that argument goes both ways. The point is that on the season as a whole, Uribe had a better year than Valentin. He is also much younger. Uribe is 25 and coming off his first full year. That means that more than likely he will continue to improve. Valentin is 35 and has been on a steady decline since we got him. The chances of him suddenly turning that around at 35 and becoming a better hitter are very slim unless he befriends Barry Bonds and Greg Anderson.

Please, explain the fascination with Jose Valentin.

oldcomiskey
10-17-2004, 09:44 AM
Uribe's range is fine. It isn't like he is Kelly Dransfeldt out there. Uribe gets to plenty of balls. And when he gets to them, he's more than likely going to make the play.

Uribe had 2 very good months. April and September. In both months he had an OPS over 1.000. In May and August he posted the same OPS of .884. Both very good months for him. He got on base a little less than you'd like to see in August, but it still was a decent month for him. June and July were really the bad months. Hell, you wanna make this "take away the two months" argument, I'll reverse it on you. Take away June and July and we're talking about him as a breakout shortstop who has clearly won a starting spot somewhere on the field. So that argument goes both ways. The point is that on the season as a whole, Uribe had a better year than Valentin. He is also much younger. Uribe is 25 and coming off his first full year. That means that more than likely he will continue to improve. Valentin is 35 and has been on a steady decline since we got him. The chances of him suddenly turning that around at 35 and becoming a better hitter are very slim unless he befriends Barry Bonds and Greg Anderson.

Please, explain the fascination with Jose Valentin.

alright be glad to----

jose has been the heart and soul of this club and its best clutch hitter for the time he has been here---its not that I dont want Uribe around--but I think of him as a guy who will hit 250 for his career without Joses pop, and I still dont think we would talking him as a breakout SS anymore than we would be talking about Rowands great year in CF---one year does not a great player make. but if it means getting rid of Jose or anybody on this club to win a championship Im for it--I just dont see it with Uribe being in the infield every day

MRKARNO
10-17-2004, 10:38 AM
alright be glad to----

jose has been the heart and soul of this club and its best clutch hitter for the time he has been here---its not that I dont want Uribe around--but I think of him as a guy who will hit 250 for his career without Joses pop, and I still dont think we would talking him as a breakout SS anymore than we would be talking about Rowands great year in CF---one year does not a great player make. but if it means getting rid of Jose or anybody on this club to win a championship Im for it--I just dont see it with Uribe being in the infield every day

Uribe:

Range...Check
Power (23 Homers)....Check
Decent OBP (.327)....check
Not Error prone (11 at three different positions)....check
Still developing as a player(age 25)......check
Decently cheap and someone to build around.....Check

Valentin:

Range.....Check
Power.....Check
Decent OBP....No
Not Error prone.....No
Still developing as a player.....no
Decently cheap and someone to build around.....no

johnny_mostil
10-17-2004, 11:47 AM
I dont see the love affair with Juan uribe---could someone please sxplain it to me?? Jose has something called RANGE--which means on average hes gonna commit more errors because he gets to more ground balls than anyone this side of Angel Berroa--and I srill say if you take away that great first two months then Uribe hits about what Jose hits--without the 26 HRs
Why do White Sox fans always do this?

Uribe is a superior defensive infielder with a decent average and, for a middle infielder, decent power. He is 25 years old.

He has good to superior range. For three years in a row he has fielded more balls per 9 innings at each of SS, 2B, and 3B than average, despite never knowing when he went to the park which position he was going to play. His range at shortstop is 3/4 of a play a game above average.

As for errors, he committed 3 errors in 172 chances at shortstop in 287 2/3 innings, a .983 FP; the league average is .972. He was above the league average at all three positions he was asked to play. He was also above average in 2003 at Colorado. He doesn't make a lot of errors by any stretch.

His range numbers are consistently above average. He's fast, drives the ball, and fields any position well. What the heck do you WANT from a middle infielder? Willie Harris?

I think if he had only hit 9 homers but had hit 10 points higher he'd be regarded, perversely, as a god. Sox fans, for some mysterious reason, distrust anybody who hits the ball out of the ballpark because they assume, for some Steven Kingish reason, that the guy must be defective at every other aspect of the game.

Gosox1917
10-17-2004, 01:27 PM
Why do White Sox fans always do this?

Uribe is a superior defensive infielder with a decent average and, for a middle infielder, decent power. He is 25 years old.

He has good to superior range. For three years in a row he has fielded more balls per 9 innings at each of SS, 2B, and 3B than average, despite never knowing when he went to the park which position he was going to play. His range at shortstop is 3/4 of a play a game above average.

As for errors, he committed 3 errors in 172 chances at shortstop in 287 2/3 innings, a .983 FP; the league average is .972. He was above the league average at all three positions he was asked to play. He was also above average in 2003 at Colorado. He doesn't make a lot of errors by any stretch.

His range numbers are consistently above average. He's fast, drives the ball, and fields any position well. What the heck do you WANT from a middle infielder? Willie Harris?

I think if he had only hit 9 homers but had hit 10 points higher he'd be regarded, perversely, as a god. Sox fans, for some mysterious reason, distrust anybody who hits the ball out of the ballpark because they assume, for some Steven Kingish reason, that the guy must be defective at every other aspect of the game.
Amen brotha.

batmanZoSo
10-17-2004, 01:39 PM
Uribe's range is fine. It isn't like he is Kelly Dransfeldt out there. Uribe gets to plenty of balls. And when he gets to them, he's more than likely going to make the play.

Uribe had 2 very good months. April and September. In both months he had an OPS over 1.000. In May and August he posted the same OPS of .884. Both very good months for him. He got on base a little less than you'd like to see in August, but it still was a decent month for him. June and July were really the bad months. Hell, you wanna make this "take away the two months" argument, I'll reverse it on you. Take away June and July and we're talking about him as a breakout shortstop who has clearly won a starting spot somewhere on the field. So that argument goes both ways. The point is that on the season as a whole, Uribe had a better year than Valentin. He is also much younger. Uribe is 25 and coming off his first full year. That means that more than likely he will continue to improve. Valentin is 35 and has been on a steady decline since we got him. The chances of him suddenly turning that around at 35 and becoming a better hitter are very slim unless he befriends Barry Bonds and Greg Anderson.

Please, explain the fascination with Jose Valentin.

He hit .280 with 23 homers and 74 rbi and he's not even a feature player in the lineup that we depend on..he's a seventh place hitter. What more could you possibly want, and from a guy who made a million at most?

Because Uribe's new an unheard of before coming here, we have to "decide whether he's fluke" but Crede is allowed to hit .215 and pop up all the time because he was once the "next Scott Rolen." More accurately, I'd say he's Scott Ruffcorn of the field. And Valentin's still living off a great 2000 year, which was pretty much the only really good year of his entire career. A .212 batting average and 130 strikeouts in less than an everyday player's amount of at-bats just isn't enough evidence for this organization. The jury's still out on him...let's see what he can do yet.

Huisj
10-17-2004, 01:48 PM
He hit .280 with 23 homers and 74 rbi and he's not even a feature player in the lineup that we depend on..he's a seventh place hitter. What more could you possibly want, and from a guy who made a million at most?

Because Uribe's new an unheard of before coming here, we have to "decide whether he's fluke" but Crede is allowed to hit .215 and pop up all the time because he was once the "next Scott Rolen." More accurately, I'd say he's Scott Ruffcorn of the field. And Valentin's still living off a great 2000 year, which was pretty much the only really good year of his entire career. A .212 batting average and 130 strikeouts in less than an everyday player's amount of at-bats just isn't enough evidence for this organization. The jury's still out on him...let's see what he can do yet.
Ruffcorn never came close to doing what crede has done in his career. For about a year and a half or so, Crede was about an average hitting third baseman with good defense, and then for the last year he was a lousy hitting one. Ruffcorn was never even close to being a crappy major league pitcher, because he was so bad that he could never stick around. I'm not defending Crede and saying he's great or anything, but comparing him to Scott Ruffcorn is a bit harsh. He compiled a stellar 8.57 ERA in 70 career innings.

batmanZoSo
10-17-2004, 01:57 PM
Ruffcorn never came close to doing what crede has done in his career. For about a year and a half or so, Crede was about an average hitting third baseman with good defense, and then for the last year he was a lousy hitting one. Ruffcorn was never even close to being a crappy major league pitcher, because he was so bad that he could never stick around. I'm not defending Crede and saying he's great or anything, but comparing him to Scott Ruffcorn is a bit harsh. He compiled a stellar 8.57 ERA in 70 career innings.

Well for one I said he's more Scott Ruffcorn than Scott Rolen, and it was mainly for comedic purposes anyway. Jeeeeez. Let's stick to the course, people..

santo=dorf
10-17-2004, 01:58 PM
:threadsucks

If you can't figure out why people want Uribe over Valentin next year, you just didn't watch enough crappy Sox baseball this year. Valentin has been getting worse each year since 2000.

Uribe>Valentin :cool:

hitlesswonder
10-17-2004, 02:06 PM
Why do White Sox fans always do this?

Uribe is a superior defensive infielder with a decent average and, for a middle infielder, decent power. He is 25 years old.

I agree completely. I think Valentin was actually an above average defensive shortstop, but I also think Uribe is just as good. Coming up with Colorado, it was his glove that everyone talked about. In fact, I think it's a waste of his range and arm to play him at second. Really, I don't understand why the Sox don't want him starting. I have to think that on most teams, a 25 year old shortstop who posted an .800 OPS and .280 average with good D would start. His game does have problems: he's not good at getting on base, he can't steal despite being pretty fast and he was streaky. But he's so young and cheap right now, I would much rather see the Sox spend money on more glaring holes. Another starter and catcher are two holes the Sox don't have anyone on the roster to fill that could be expected to be even mediocre.

johnny_mostil
10-17-2004, 02:33 PM
Another starter and catcher are two holes the Sox don't have anyone on the roster to fill that could be expected to be even mediocre.
They do have several backup catchers, though. I wouldn't be concerned about Ben Davis or Jamie Burke as the backup.

I agree on the one-more-starting-pitcher theory.

I'd also like to see them make a run at Corey Koskie, but that's just me.

SomebodyToldMe
10-17-2004, 04:37 PM
:threadsucks

Nuff said.

Next thread!

fusillirob1983
10-17-2004, 04:55 PM
Uribe is better than Valentin for the reasons stated above. Plus, what other shortstops in the league does our team have a chance of acquiring that are better than Uribe? Nobody take this the wrong way and that I'm saying Uribe's the best shortstop in the league, I don't believe that at all. Please pay attention to the part where I say, "our team have a chance of acquiring".

oldcomiskey
10-17-2004, 06:17 PM
Uribe is better than Valentin for the reasons stated above. Plus, what other shortstops in the league does our team have a chance of acquiring that are better than Uribe? Nobody take this the wrong way and that I'm saying Uribe's the best shortstop in the league, I don't believe that at all. Please pay attention to the part where I say, "our team have a chance of acquiring".

Thats the real question. And I stated before if Uribe puts up numbers like her did in 2004 Ill say its time for Jose to go--the problem I have with a lot of you is after 2000 you all fell in love with a .239 lifetime hitter who was error prone--and now you all want to dump him---Uribe is at best an adequate replacement for manos, but lets not say that hes head and shoulders better

OEO Magglio
10-17-2004, 08:14 PM
Thats the real question. And I stated before if Uribe puts up numbers like her did in 2004 Ill say its time for Jose to go--the problem I have with a lot of you is after 2000 you all fell in love with a .239 lifetime hitter who was error prone--and now you all want to dump him---Uribe is at best an adequate replacement for manos, but lets not say that hes head and shoulders better
When you take everything into consideration he really is, Juan is a very good defender maybe even a gold glover one day, he's got a solid bat right now with pretty good power for a ss, he's 25 years old, and he's cheap, he's most likely going to get better also, when you take everything together he really is head and shoulders better then Jose imo.

cornball
10-17-2004, 08:28 PM
Not sure if there is a full moon out or not, but you can tell there is no White Sox news.

Especially when in the past 2 days we have a thread putting Ventura in the HOF and today someone defending Valentin.

Can't we do better?

akingamongstmen
10-18-2004, 01:57 AM
Not sure if there is a full moon out or not, but you can tell there is no White Sox news.

Especially when in the past 2 days we have a thread putting Ventura in the HOF and today someone defending Valentin.

Can't we do better?
My thoughts exactly.

ChiSoxBobette
10-18-2004, 11:06 AM
I dont see the love affair with Juan uribe---could someone please sxplain it to me?? Jose has something called RANGE--which means on average hes gonna commit more errors because he gets to more ground balls than anyone this side of Angel Berroa--and I srill say if you take away that great first two months then Uribe hits about what Jose hits--without the 26 HRs
I don't know what games you watched but Jose Valentine has NO range and when he does get to balls that are out of his range 90% of the time he makes an error. Lets see no range on balls that go up the middel, how many time has Jose fielded a ground ball up the middle, and no range whats so ever on texas leaguers that are just hit over his head. Put those things together with a .214 batting average , plus what Jose makes and I say HE GONE!

oldcomiskey
10-18-2004, 07:59 PM
not according to this
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=7&season=2004&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=rangeFactor

batmanZoSo
10-18-2004, 10:35 PM
not according to this
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=7&season=2004&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=rangeFactor

Range factor, schmange factor. I don't know how one goes about calculating an abstract, subjective thing. Royce Clayton was top 5 in 01 and 02. What does that tell you? I just don't buy that stat. Putouts + Assists/Innings. I'm sure there's some validity to it because there are great fielders on those lists, but there's no way Eckstein has more range than Guzman and Jeter. And you know some of those guys benefit from a ground ball staff because the stat is largely predicated on chances.

MarkEdward
10-19-2004, 01:51 AM
Range factor, schmange factor. I don't know how one goes about calculating an abstract, subjective thing. Royce Clayton was top 5 in 01 and 02. What does that tell you? I just don't buy that stat. Putouts + Assists/Innings.Right, range factor is a real bad and pointless stat...

I'm sure there's some validity to it because there are great fielders on those lists, but there's no way Eckstein has more range than Guzman and Jeter. And you know some of those guys benefit from a ground ball staff because the stat is largely predicated on chances.... of course, there are some decent defensive stats. Zone rating is the best widely-available stat. Uribe has a ZR of .881 as a shortstop, which is quite decent (Jose Valentin led the AL in ZR at .878, I really think the Sox will miss his defense next year, very underrated). A better defensive stat is Ultimate Zone Rating*. Using UZR, Uribe ranks as the seventh-best SS in baseball (Valentin, incidentally, is ranked first).

As for Guzman and Jeter, stats seem to back up the notion that both are bad defensively. Using UZR (and ZR, for that matter), Jeter has been one of the worst defensive players in baseball (though, to be fair, he seems to be better this year). Anecdotally speaking, ask any relatively-objective Twin or Yankee fan and they'll say neither Jeter nor Guzman are very good with the glove.

*UZR data: http://www.tangotiger.net/UZR0003.html

hitlesswonder
10-19-2004, 02:30 AM
Zone rating is the best widely-available stat. Uribe has a ZR of .881 as a shortstop, which is quite decent (Jose Valentin led the AL in ZR at .878, I really think the Sox will miss his defense next year, very underrated).

As for Guzman and Jeter, stats seem to back up the notion that both are bad defensively. Using UZR (and ZR, for that matter), Jeter has been one of the worst defensive players in baseball (though, to be fair, he seems to be better this year). Anecdotally speaking, ask any relatively-objective Twin or Yankee fan and they'll say neither Jeter nor Guzman are very good with the glove.
*UZR data: http://www.tangotiger.net/UZR0003.htmlI'll add to people's disbelief and defend Valentin as well. I agree Valentin has been underrated defensively. If he hadn't just fallen apart at the plate after early July, I wouldn't have minded seeing him back at a reduced salary (he had something like a .900 OPS before his swoon). But given his age, offensive fall-off and the fact that he'll want a multi-year, multi-million dollar deal, I think it's time to move on. Still, it surprises me that so many people seem to think Valentin has been a bad SS for the Sox. Most teams in MLB trot out players like Alex Gonzales (either one), who are demonstrably worse in the field and at the plate (at least before the second half of this year). It may be faint praise, but Valentin the best SS I've seen on the Sox since Guillen played. And actually, I think he's better than Guillen (at least post-knee surgery).

oldcomiskey
10-19-2004, 07:26 AM
Jeter--you gotta be kidding me--hes the one guy who has about as much range as royce clayton--and it seems to me like youre just upset about something other than jose's play----range factor is important --it tells about how many balls they actually get to-----Im not saying Jose is Luis Apericio--but hes better defensively certainly than Juan Uribe--and I dont have the numbers and dont want to keep tis argument going but offhand does anybody know what Jose's slugging average was. And I seriusly doubt that Clayton was anywhere near the top in Range Factor

maurice
10-19-2004, 01:13 PM
range factor is important--it tells about how many balls they actually get to-----Im not saying Jose is Luis Apericio--but hes better defensively certainly than Juan Uribe
Valentin - 4.91 RF in 2004, 4.64 in 2003, 4.49 in 2002
Uribe - 5.29 RF in 2004, 5.79 (!) in 2003, 5.24 in 2002

Facts are stubborn things.

batmanZoSo
10-19-2004, 01:31 PM
Jeter--you gotta be kidding me--hes the one guy who has about as much range as royce clayton--and it seems to me like youre just upset about something other than jose's play----range factor is important --it tells about how many balls they actually get to-----Im not saying Jose is Luis Apericio--but hes better defensively certainly than Juan Uribe--and I dont have the numbers and dont want to keep tis argument going but offhand does anybody know what Jose's slugging average was. And I seriusly doubt that Clayton was anywhere near the top in Range Factor

According to this, yes he was: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/stats/fielding?groupId=7&season=2001&seasonType=2&split=82&sortOrder=true&sortColumn=rangeFactor

The very fact that they apply the word "range" to that stat is abominable. Clayton has smooth hands, but very average range. But in 01 and 02, he was in the top 5 in "range factor." If you ask me, they oughta call it something else.

Tekijawa
10-19-2004, 02:11 PM
When did Jose get range? did I miss something? I know Crede has been covering him against him going to his right for the past 2 seasons.

34 Inch Stick
10-19-2004, 02:18 PM
Why are we wasting our time with this discussion. KW all but said at the beginning of last year that Uribe would be the starting shortstop in 2005. The only way Jose is coming back is at a VERY cheap price and that is only if KW cannot find a second baseman to bat leadoff.

Someone is going to see the 25+ home runs for Jose in the past 5 years with improved defense over the last 2 years and think he is a nice 7-8 hitter in their offense. He will get his money and he will be gone.

Dolanski
10-19-2004, 03:38 PM
Bring back Mike Caruso!!! Problem Solved!!!

oldcomiskey
10-19-2004, 06:10 PM
Valentin - 4.91 RF in 2004, 4.64 in 2003, 4.49 in 2002
Uribe - 5.29 RF in 2004, 5.79 (!) in 2003, 5.24 in 2002

Facts are stubborn things.

I stand corrected--and as I said before if it takes getting rid of some players to win a championship--Im all for it--Im a Jose Valentin fan--I dont hate Uribe like I did Clayton but then again I aint hated anybody this side of my ex wife like I did him

oldcomiskey
10-19-2004, 06:11 PM
When did Jose get range? did I miss something? I know Crede has been covering him against him going to his right for the past 2 seasons.
Let's dont take it that far especially after all the hyperbole in the debates

chisox06
10-19-2004, 10:40 PM
He hit .280 with 23 homers and 74 rbi and he's not even a feature player in the lineup that we depend on..he's a seventh place hitter. What more could you possibly want, and from a guy who made a million at most?

Because Uribe's new an unheard of before coming here, we have to "decide whether he's fluke" but Crede is allowed to hit .215 and pop up all the time because he was once the "next Scott Rolen." More accurately, I'd say he's Scott Ruffcorn of the field. And Valentin's still living off a great 2000 year, which was pretty much the only really good year of his entire career. A .212 batting average and 130 strikeouts in less than an everyday player's amount of at-bats just isn't enough evidence for this organization. The jury's still out on him...let's see what he can do yet.
Agree 100%. Just look at it logically. Uribe, is much cheaper than Valentin. He has great range, rocket arm, and he had a good offensive season, and at 25 hes only gonna get better. Valentin just did not peform, next to Crede he had to be the most frustrating hitter to watch this year, .215 avg and all those damn strikeouts. I dont question his motivation or his personality, Valentin is a hell of a guy, but he's washed up. The only time I want to see Jose back on this team is if hes standing in the 3rd base coaches box.