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Bmr31
10-08-2001, 03:15 PM
....."royce clayton played the best SS of any player since ive been here." I realize we havent had great defensive SS, but he also hit .270. He did EXACTLY what was expected from him. Those of you who bashed him and blamed him, should be ashamed of yourselves.

FarWestChicago
10-08-2001, 03:35 PM
I realize we havent had great defensive SS, but he also hit .270. He did EXACTLY what was expected from him. Those of you who bashed him and blamed him, should be ashamed of yourselves. I am not the least bit ashamed of myself because I have nothing to be ashamed of.

Manager Jerry Manuel--in his harshest statements on the subject--discussed the Sox' new look that featured the winter acquisitions of pitcher David Wells, shortstop Royce Clayton and catcher Sandy Alomar Jr. to the defending Central Division champions.

Keep in mind, the Sox under-achieved long before the onslaught of injuries.

''I probably wouldn't have had the same mix,'' Manuel said before the game. ''It just wasn't a good mix. It's like a pot of gumbo. It just didn't have the right stuff in it. It didn't taste right. What we felt was going to be a good mix wasn't.''

duke of dorwood
10-08-2001, 03:42 PM
Someone missed April May and June.


:hitless

So did I

Bmr31
10-08-2001, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Someone missed April May and June.


:hitless

So did I

last time i checked the season is 162 games long. he did EXACTLY what he was expected to do. Once again, you bashers should be ashamed.

Bmr31
10-08-2001, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
I am not the least bit ashamed of myself because I have nothing to be ashamed of.




ummmmmmmm he hit 270 and played solid defense. Did you guys mistake him for nomar or something???

FarWestChicago
10-08-2001, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31

Did you guys mistake him for nomar or something??? No, but it seems like most of his supporters did. :)

oldcomiskey
10-08-2001, 03:57 PM
yeah BMR I see your point--all Clayton did was take the place of a fan favoorite and cause headaches to Gary Ward and Von Joshua...and Manos stayed with less money for this???!!!

HE GOES

Bmr31
10-08-2001, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
No, but it seems like most of his supporters did. :)


You may want to do some research and check claytons career numbers. Once again, he did exactly what was expected from him.

Bmr31
10-08-2001, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
yeah BMR I see your point--all Clayton did was take the place of a fan favoorite and cause headaches to Gary Ward and Von Joshua...and Manos stayed with less money for this???!!!

HE GOES


fan favorite??? JOSE? why? cuz hes the worst defensive SS in recent baseball history? Gee yeah, jose is a favorite of mine! :)

FarWestChicago
10-08-2001, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31

You may want to do some research and check claytons career numbers.
1) You know I don't really like to argue in this forum. I'm sure others will step in.

2) If I end up with nothing better to do than research Choice's career, please shoot me.

3) Just got a very important page. I have to go.

Bmr31
10-08-2001, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago

1) You know I don't really like to argue in this forum. I'm sure others will step in.

2) If I end up with nothing better to do than research Choice's career, please shoot me.

3) Just got a very important page. I have to go.

Yeah, i realize its difficult to debate fact.

Jerry_Manuel
10-08-2001, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
1) You know I don't really like to argue in this forum. I'm sure others will step in.


I'll step in for you West.
Yes Clayton's final regular season numbers are what we expected of him. Yes he did play good defense. But people had every right to bash him when he was hitting below .100. The problem comes in the fact that it took 2 months to get to his career average. If he hit .260 or .270 for the full 162 games then I don't think there would be that big of a problem with him. But he didn't hit .270 for the full season. So yes he has done what we wanted for the last 2 months of the year but the games really didn't matter at that point. Not that it is his fault that the games didn't matter but they just didn't. Not sure that made much sense, hope it did.

LongDistanceFan
10-08-2001, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
....."royce clayton played the best SS of any player since ive been here." I realize we havent had great defensive SS, but he also hit .270. He did EXACTLY what was expected from him. Those of you who bashed him and blamed him, should be ashamed of yourselves. since i have been one who bashed him, i am guilty but telling me to be ashamed.......... get real.. who are you to lecture me in those terms on something as stupid as baseball person. shame should be for something a little more meaningful........ do you not agree with this? or are you sooo determine to win an argument and no-one could have an opinion except you?

ref the statement, anyone would've played a better defensive game than JV, but there is more. what would you have expected JM to say? if he was sooo much of an improvement over JV how come they the sox didn't come in the top 5 in doubleplays?

don't ever tell me that i should be ashamed of myself........... don't judge me either.......

Bmr31
10-08-2001, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
since i have been one who bashed him, i am guilty but telling me to be ashamed.......... get real.. who are you to lecture me in those terms on something as stupid as baseball person. shame should be for something a little more meaningful........ do you not agree with this? or are you sooo determine to win an argument and no-one could have an opinion except you?

ref the statement, anyone would've played a better defensive game than JV, but there is more. what would you have expected JM to say? if he was sooo much of an improvement over JV how come they the sox didn't come in the top 5 in doubleplays?

don't ever tell me that i should be ashamed of myself........... don't judge me either.......


bashing a human being, without fact behind it, should cause shame....

Jerry_Manuel
10-08-2001, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
....."royce clayton played the best SS of any player since ive been here."

Well that's not exactly a great list of players who have played short while Manuel has been here.

Mike Caruso
Jose Valentin
Royce Clayton
was Ozzie Guillen still here?

Bmr31
10-08-2001, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I'll step in for you West.
Yes Clayton's final regular season numbers are what we expected of him. Yes he did play good defense. But people had every right to bash him when he was hitting below .100. The problem comes in the fact that it took 2 months to get to his career average. If he hit .260 or .270 for the full 162 games then I don't think there would be that big of a problem with him. But he didn't hit .270 for the full season. So yes he has done what we wanted for the last 2 months of the year but the games really didn't matter at that point. Not that it is his fault that the games didn't matter but they just didn't. Not sure that made much sense, hope it did.


Bashing royce in april and may was deserved. Bashing him in august and september was pathetic.....

LongDistanceFan
10-08-2001, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



bashing a human being, without fact behind it, should cause shame.... who is to judge which fact should be in used? You only.

the fact that he batted 100 in the beginning? Disrespecting the coaches? the fact that hardly anybody want him on their team, ref to the report that KW was trying to give him away before the trading deadline?

LongDistanceFan
10-08-2001, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



Bashing royce in april and may was deserved. Bashing him in august and september was pathetic..... bashing him those months for not producing that way from the beginning.

Bmr31
10-08-2001, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
who is to judge which fact should be in used? You only.

the fact that he batted 100 in the beginning? Disrespecting the coaches? the fact that hardly anybody want him on their team, ref to the report that KW was trying to give him away before the trading deadline?

LOL!!!! disrespecting the coaches? PLEASE. Frank Thomas disrespected the team, organization and fans. Lets blame him too! :)

LongDistanceFan
10-08-2001, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



Bashing royce in april and may was deserved. you should be ashame yourself for that reasoning as well.

LongDistanceFan
10-08-2001, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


LOL!!!! disrespecting the coaches? PLEASE. Frank Thomas disrespected the team, organization and fans. Lets blame him too! and he was

Bmr31
10-08-2001, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
bashing him those months for not producing that way from the beginning.

THat statement is absolutely ridiculous. EVERY PLAYER has ups and downs in a 162 game season. GEEZ....

Bmr31
10-08-2001, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
you should be ashame yourself for that reasoning as well.

fact supported the bashing in April and May...

LongDistanceFan
10-08-2001, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


LOL!!!! disrespecting the coaches? PLEASE. Frank Thomas disrespected the team, organization and fans. Lets blame him too! don't try to take one part of my statement to justify your caused........... used the whole statment./

LongDistanceFan
10-08-2001, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


THat statement is absolutely ridiculous. EVERY PLAYER has ups and downs in a 162 game season. GEEZ.... for 3 consecutive months........... straight. and then you said that the fact proved that he should get bashed.............. smell what you are shoveling........ you can't get which side you are on.

Bmr31
10-08-2001, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
for 3 consecutive months........... straight. and then you said that the fact proved that he should get bashed.............. smell what you are shoveling........ you can't get which side you are on.


and for 3 months he was one of the best hitters in the AL and everyone completely ignored that. I think this is my point....

LongDistanceFan
10-08-2001, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



and for 3 months he was one of the best hitters in the AL and everyone completely ignored that. I think this is my point.... no everybody acknowledged it, they were angry that he wasn't able to produce more than 100 in the beginning......... i know, b/c i have been one who was stating that....... i was a big backer of royce, until he couldn't hit in the beginning.

LongDistanceFan
10-08-2001, 04:28 PM
i have 10 more mins......... then i have to go

Bmr31
10-08-2001, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
no everybody acknowledged it, they were angry that he wasn't able to produce more than 100 in the beginning......... i know, b/c i have been one who was stating that....... i was a big backer of royce, until he couldn't hit in the beginning.

Royce is well below an average major league SS. He always has been. Knowing this, i find it impossible and illogical to blame or bash him, when his numbers were similar to his career numbers. I guess this is because i realize a major league baseball season is 162 games.

LongDistanceFan
10-08-2001, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


Royce is well below an average major league SS. He always has been. Knowing this, i find it impossible and illogical to blame or bash him, when his numbers were similar to his career numbers. I guess this is because i realize a major league baseball season is 162 games. this is my last post until late tonight or tomorrow......

now you are going about his career avg and numbers, yet you agree that his bashing was deserved.......... man make up your mind............ you are getting me a headache with you constantly changing your stand.

Joel Perez
10-08-2001, 04:49 PM
Look, Sox fans aren't going to remember Royce Clayton's 2001 year as his batting average being above .270--the one big thing that the majority of Sox fans ARE going to look at Mr. Rolls Royce is the fact that he couldn't hit above my weight (237) until sometime in July or August.

When the Sox traded for Royce, I expected a .260-.270 average with a steady glove and the occasional pop in his bat. Yeah, I got that, but during the 2nd half of the season. The fact that he was non-existent in the first half left a sour taste in my mouth.

If Royce was consistenly hitting .270 throughout the year, then no complaints, mate! But most of the Sox fans are going to remember .099 in May and June. And so am I.

Let's see what happens this offseason. If Royce gets packaged off somewhere, it's not going to break my heart. If he stays, it won't either. It's great that he batted over .300 for the final two months of the season to pick himself up, but a ton of major league scouts are also going to remember .099.

The fact is, when we needed him the most--during May and June--he did not answer the call.

Daver
10-08-2001, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
Look, Sox fans aren't going to remember Royce Clayton's 2001 year as his batting average being above .270--the one big thing that the majority of Sox fans ARE going to look at Mr. Rolls Royce is the fact that he couldn't hit above my weight (237) until sometime in July or August.

When the Sox traded for Royce, I expected a .260-.270 average with a steady glove and the occasional pop in his bat. Yeah, I got that, but during the 2nd half of the season. The fact that he was non-existent in the first half left a sour taste in my mouth.

If Royce was consistenly hitting .270 throughout the year, then no complaints, mate! But most of the Sox fans are going to remember .099 in May and June. And so am I.

Let's see what happens this offseason. If Royce gets packaged off somewhere, it's not going to break my heart. If he stays, it won't either. It's great that he batted over .300 for the final two months of the season to pick himself up, but a ton of major league scouts are also going to remember .099.

The fact is, when we needed him the most--during May and June--he did not answer the call.

That and the fact that is defense is not much better than average.I think I would take a bag of used baseballs for him.

RichieRichAllen
10-08-2001, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
Look, Sox fans aren't going to remember Royce Clayton's 2001 year as his batting average being above .270--the one big thing that the majority of Sox fans ARE going to look at Mr. Rolls Royce is the fact that he couldn't hit above my weight (237) until sometime in July or August.

When the Sox traded for Royce, I expected a .260-.270 average with a steady glove and the occasional pop in his bat. Yeah, I got that, but during the 2nd half of the season. The fact that he was non-existent in the first half left a sour taste in my mouth.

If Royce was consistenly hitting .270 throughout the year, then no complaints, mate! But most of the Sox fans are going to remember .099 in May and June. And so am I.

Let's see what happens this offseason. If Royce gets packaged off somewhere, it's not going to break my heart. If he stays, it won't either. It's great that he batted over .300 for the final two months of the season to pick himself up, but a ton of major league scouts are also going to remember .099.

The fact is, when we needed him the most--during May and June--he did not answer the call.

I agree in part. If the Sox find a SS to replace Clayton that can bring us D up the middle and hit or get on base, let's do it.

The problem is that Clayton was made to be the whipping boy for all the team's problem early on. This is both short-sighted and knee jerk. The fact that regardless of what he did the rest of the season didn't seem to penetrate the stubborn and the "I can't believe I might've been wrong" crowd is annoying.

They even find ways to justify themselves by ragging on his defense.

1. Rag-arm- As opposed to Valentin who will throw a ball into the stands instead of eating it or try to make sure he hits his target?

2. Range- He's no Ozzie Smith, if that's what you're getting at. But, christ....he catches the ball and makes the plays. Give him some credit.

The BIG problem here is that he took over Jose's roost. Most of the hate for Clayton stems from Jose rooters who couldn't understand that the Sox needed to better themselves up the middle. Many are still in denial in claiming Jose's bat coulda'/shoulda' brought more wins than his glove woulda'/coulda' produced losses. Sorry folks, Jose has a lot of great attributes but his glove and arm ain't one of them. He played himself out of a position last year, plain and simple. And to those of you who think having Jose at SS all year could've produced different results, you're dreaming. Even when Clayton was nearing Jose in BA, the excuses were humorous. Well, he didn't have a solid position to play all year which took away from him offensively. Puleeeeeze! You guys are so anti-Clayton due to your feigning love of Valentin that you can't see the trees for the forest.

Finally, I love Valentin. Wish there were a place in the lineup for him. Unfortunately, Big Frank inhabits it. I will wager this. Jose will not be the starting SS in '02. No matter how much slobbering you guys want to do over him.

voodoochile
10-08-2001, 07:15 PM
Yes, Royce ended up putting up the numbers we expected of him, and if that was all there is to the argument, than it could end there, BUT (and like mine, it's a big one)...

Jose could not make the transition to CF on which Royce playing everyday is based on. So, the Sox were forced to move Jose to 3B, where he not only stunk the joint up, but which is NOT an option next year with Crede expected to play from the get go.

So... the question isn't, "did Royce perform like we expected?", but rather, who do we want back next year? I think that topic is as old as the board itself (at least this incarnation of it). Some think Royce is the answer, some (me included) much prefer Jose back at SS next year. I can't see the Sox giving Royce the job next year if they can get rid of him cheap this winter. With Crede coming up the infield defense will improve dramatically, which means the Sox can afford to let Jose play SS again.

Some think the answer is to dump ray, but I think over the last 6 weeks of the season, he showed exactly why he should stay. Besides, the one stat that sticks out above and beyond the rest, IMO is the Sox record when Ray plays well and when he plays poorly. They are pretty much mirror images of each other (approxamately .667 when playing well, .333 when playing poorly). Well, here's my question, "How well will Ray be playing for the Sox if they trade him?"

This should be a no brainer, IMO.

What is Jose's best postion? SS.

Do we want Jose to play everyday? Yes.

What do we do? Dump Clayton.

Tragg
10-08-2001, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen




The problem is that Clayton was made to be the whipping boy for all the team's problem early on.

I stand here and say I criticized his aquisition the moment I heard about it - it had nothing to do with his start or needing someone to blame.

The real problem is that he is a TERRIBLE OFFENSIVE PLAYER. Spare me the .270 batting average - that is little indication of his pitiful offense. He can't work the bat, he can't take a walk, he can't hit to the right or left when called upon and he can't bunt.

He flat out stinks offensively.

REgardless, we're arguing on the margins. At best he is an average player - why the hell do we need average players.

rmusacch
10-08-2001, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



ummmmmmmm he hit 270 and played solid defense. Did you guys mistake him for nomar or something???

He did not start hitting into the season was over for all intensive purposes.

longshot7
10-09-2001, 02:16 AM
I love intensive purposes - so much better than regular ones.

Anyway, uh, Tragg, Fill in the blank - what's the saying?
"Championships are won by pitching and _________."

Could it be Defense? Yes, it could. How well did the 1906 Sox hit?

LongDistanceFan
10-09-2001, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
Whether or not he is the whipping boy for the failures of the sox. I really canít say. I will answer for myself only, I would not be presumptuous enuf to answer for anybody else.

For me, I was a Clayton fan since he was in the NL. The sox getting him last yr., I thought was a great move. I was not too impress with what Jose brought to the table or should I say I thought it was a career yr. I started to become disenchanted with the notion of Clayton and his offense in the beginning of this season, then I started to hear about his clubhouse attitude, at the same time I started to see what a good citizen that Jose was. In addition I saw what he did at the sCrubs game and that showed me leadership quality.

Now I can admit when I am wrong, but my post and I think that some of the other poster lost heart as much as I did when he, Clayton hit 100 for 3 months. Its not that he was in the way of Jose, but come on, hitting 100 for 3 months? Those are the facts. Or do you not want to see that? I came to understand on this one point, I would rather have Jose arm and defense and deal with the errors to have his presence in the lineup and in the clubhouse. He has provided more than what the stat sheet says.

This yr, there is more than Royce hitting, but if he only produced some of his second half hitting in the first half, the outcome may have be different. I am one of those who thinks that. Even tho we lost; big-frank, Wells, Parque, losing those players hurt, but we were close to getting into the playoff, even as a wildcard. Now Clayton performance in the second half was a reason for that and in addition Chris second half resurgence as well.

It was hinted that the clubhouse atmosphere was much different than last yr and it and maybe a little more single minded, me first attitude. It points to Clayton. Seeing the big picture, maybe its those who refuse to admit that they are wrong on the Clayton and get to this comparison, because, most of these threads are started by those who refuse to admit Clayton shortcomings.

I am not into this zone ratings or range or any other stats, except the errors and leadership one provides. If you canít see what he Jose provides to the team, then its you who are blind. I can live and I think that the sox will live with his errors, to keep him in the lineup. No matter how much fawning you do over Clayton, he is a cancer. Good defense or not........ the end does not justify the means.

Bmr31
10-09-2001, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch


He did not start hitting into the season was over for all intensive purposes.


is everyone on drugs??? Whats the difference WHEN he hit , he hit .270 for the season and thats a fact.

LongDistanceFan
10-09-2001, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



is everyone on drugs??? Whats the difference WHEN he hit , he hit .270 for the season and thats a fact. well i am on some medication, so yeah...... i am on drugs. but that still doesn't change the fact that he hit 100 for 3 months and that was when we needed everyone to hit.

Bmr31
10-09-2001, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
well i am on some medication, so yeah...... i am on drugs. but that still doesn't change the fact that he hit 100 for 3 months and that was when we needed everyone to hit.


last thing i remember is you need players to hit for a full season. he hit .270 for the full season. The .100 you are throwing around is absolutely meaningless....

LongDistanceFan
10-09-2001, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



last thing i remember is you need players to hit for a full season. he hit .270 for the full season. The .100 you are throwing around is absolutely meaningless.... so as long as that player achieve his stats, that is ok with you. the end does justify the means is what you are stating. so if a player stinks up the season, as long as he gets his stats is ok by you. if a player ignores his coaches, lets say to lay down a bunt, b/c it might affect his stats he doesn't do it, it ok with you, b/c he achieve his career stat, right. you justify a me only attitude b/c he achieves his stats is the kind of player you want. batting 100 for 3 month is part his season and a few more hits could've help but since he hit his stats is ok with you, right.