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View Full Version : Magglio has a New Agent


owensmouth
10-14-2004, 03:56 AM
According to the Daily Herald, Maggs has a new agent...Scott Boras!

http://www.dailyherald.com/news_story.asp?intid=38274117

Deadguy
10-14-2004, 04:04 AM
This news makes me want to find a nail, and then drive it through a coffin.

MrKinsella
10-14-2004, 05:23 AM
Just let someone confirm that Beltran doesn't work with my namesake, the dreaded Scott Boras.

SSN721
10-14-2004, 05:57 AM
Well, I guess this ends all speculation of whether he will be back or not.

hose
10-14-2004, 06:33 AM
I know Boras is tough to work with , but I don't see how the Sox can just not deal with the guy. It would be one thing if Boras had lousy players as clients, then Reinsy wouldn't have to stick his head in the ground and hope the big bad Boras just goes away....scheesssss

thepaulbowski
10-14-2004, 07:07 AM
I know Boras is tough to work with , but I don't see how the Sox can just not deal with the guy. It would be one thing if Boras had lousy players as clients, then Reinsy wouldn't have to stick his head in the ground and hope the big bad Boras just goes away....scheesssss
I believe Uribe has Boras as an agent, also. I thought I remeber reading that someplace.

SOXSINCE'70
10-14-2004, 07:23 AM
Two words:

HE GAWN!!!


There is no way the Sox will resign Magglio now.And the chances of Beltran coming to the south side?? To quote former Bull Horace Grant just before he signed a deal with the Tragic in 1994,"Slim and none,and slim just walked out the door".Ken Williams,you now have 14 million dollars of free income.
Use it wisely.ON PITCHING!!!!:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

SOXSINCE'70
10-14-2004, 07:26 AM
I know Boras is tough to work with , but I don't see how the Sox can just not deal with the guy. It would be one thing if Boras had lousy players as clients, then Reinsy wouldn't have to stick his head in the ground and hope the big bad Boras just goes away....scheesssss
HOSE,

Please remember this is the same guy who wanted the Sox to pay
Wilson "the whale" Alvarez 35 mil over 5 years after the '97 season.
This was one event that led to the "White Flag Trade".Another was
the Sox inability to resign Roberto Hernandez.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Jjav829
10-14-2004, 07:44 AM
Well, I guess we can officially say, Goodbye Maggs. It was fun while it lasted.

I guess we shouldn't be surprised. He's in a desperate situation. Who better to turn to than the scummy Scott Boras?

Over By There
10-14-2004, 08:31 AM
Ouch. Well, I suppose Maggs is going to need very aggressive representation to get a deal that even approaches the money he was dreaming about before the injury. Boras is probably the guy to do it. :(:

soxnut
10-14-2004, 08:34 AM
Well, Magglio is just a selfish money grubber like the rest of the players. If Boras is now his agent it's all about the money, and he's lying if he says he wants to stay in Chicago, unless he wants to play with the Cubs. And of course that would be a perfect situation. The Cubs trade Sosa, then sign Magglio as their new right fielder, and the Magglio chant turns into a national treasure--oh well.:(:

jabrch
10-14-2004, 08:50 AM
Well, Magglio is just a selfish money grubber like the rest of the players. If Boras is now his agent it's all about the money, and he's lying if he says he wants to stay in Chicago

And that's the truth!

Magglio, by hiring Boras, makes it clear to most of us that he was so full of crap when he said it wasn't about the $. You don't pay Boras' high rates if you feel like you just want to go somewhere to play. He's gonna go out there, represented by Boras, and try to get 5/60-70 or something like that. I wouldn't touch him at that rate with a 10 ft. pole. I'll miss Magglio - I like what he brought to us - but with his condition, the money can be much better spent elsewhere. Even if not Beltran or JD Drew, spend a small chunk on a Reggie Sanders type OF some on another front of the rotation starter like Pavano or Clement and if there is any left over, on a live arm in the bullpen.

Magglio - you greedy lying self-serving ba$tard - get out of town - and be quick about it!

Tekijawa
10-14-2004, 08:51 AM
See Ya Maggs, hope you enjoy all your money!!! Might want to Practice dodging batteries in the outfield for the next time you're able to roam RF in Comiskey again... I'm Cutting out D and 9volt batery coupons as we speak!:angry: :whiner: :angry: :whiner: :angry:

Hangar thought yesterday was the worst time ever to be a Sox fan... Well it just got worse!

soxnut
10-14-2004, 09:03 AM
See Ya Maggs, hope you enjoy all your money!!! Might want to Practice dodging batteries in the outfield for the next time you're able to roam RF in Comiskey again... I'm Cutting out D and 9volt batery coupons as we speak!:angry: :whiner: :angry: :whiner: :angry:

Hangar thought yesterday was the worst time ever to be a Sox fan... Well it just got worse!

Don't throw batteries and crap on the field, that is so immature and useless. That would be just what the White Sox organization needs to uplift the way Sox fans are looked at--how stupid!!

Tekijawa
10-14-2004, 09:05 AM
Don't throw batteries and crap on the field, that is so immature and useless. That would be just what the White Sox organization needs to uplift the way Sox fans are looked at--how stupid!!You're right! I'm clipping Cinder Block coupons now... Batteries wouldn't do anywhere near the dammage that I would like!

Thanks,
Teki

Brian26
10-14-2004, 09:06 AM
See Ya Maggs, hope you enjoy all your money!!! Might want to Practice dodging batteries in the outfield for the next time you're able to roam RF in Comiskey again... I'm Cutting out D and 9volt batery coupons as we speak!:angry: :whiner: :angry: :whiner: :angry:

Wow, what a scumbag thing to say. I would never, ever, EVER think of coming to the ballpark with weapons to injure another player because he switched teams.

Tekijawa
10-14-2004, 09:07 AM
Wow, what a scumbag thing to say. I would never, ever, EVER think of coming to the ballpark with weapons to injure another player because he switched teams.
Ok, I guess that should have been in teal...

Brian26
10-14-2004, 09:07 AM
Wow, what a scumbag thing to say. I would never, ever, EVER think of coming to the ballpark with weapons to injure another player because he switched teams.

It's so "1977 New York Yankees" anyway. Just really, really lame.

hold2dibber
10-14-2004, 09:08 AM
My goodness - some of you guys sound like spiteful 12 year olds who just had their favorite toy taken away (no offense to any 12 year old posters, of course!). Any player who doesn't re-sign with the Sox is a money-grubbing scum bag? *****. Magglio didn't grow up as a Sox fan on the South Side of Chicago like most of us here. He doesn't owe anything to the organization - just like the organization doesn't "owe" him a big contract at this point. It's a business, that's the bottom line. And getting all pissy towards any player who treats it as such is ridiculous; when ownership stops treating it like a business, then the players should too. Until then, however, it's a free market and holding it against someone for treating it as such is nuts.

Brian26
10-14-2004, 09:08 AM
Ok, I guess that should have been in teal...

Even in teal, it's bad, dude. I'm just as pissed as you are about Mags. Let's not do anything stupid, though.

soxnut
10-14-2004, 09:15 AM
My goodness - some of you guys sound like spiteful 12 year olds who just had their favorite toy taken away (no offense to any 12 year old posters, of course!). Any player who doesn't re-sign with the Sox is a money-grubbing scum bag? *****. Magglio didn't grow up as a Sox fan on the South Side of Chicago like most of us here. He doesn't owe anything to the organization - just like the organization doesn't "owe" him a big contract at this point. It's a business, that's the bottom line. And getting all pissy towards any player who treats it as such is ridiculous; when ownership stops treating it like a business, then the players should too. Until then, however, it's a free market and holding it against someone for treating it as such is nuts.
My point is not that he's a scumbag, just a money grubber like the rest of the players, which is, in fact, the truth. If he wants to go, fine go, go make more money someplace else.

But, don't insult us by saying you want to stay in Chicago, and then you go out and get an agent that YOU KNOW the Sox don't deal with--I mean that's really sealing your own fate right there as to where you DON'T want to play.

And my comment about the Cubs signing him could very well come true, and the whole Magglio chant would be "stolen" and it would turn into the next big national "Cubbie" thing.

Rocky Soprano
10-14-2004, 09:16 AM
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:


I guess now its perfect time to retire my tag...

And if Maggs goes on to play for the Flubs, I swear I will learn to hate him more than I have ever hated anyone in my life! :angry:

Mickster
10-14-2004, 09:24 AM
I think the Maggli-o-Meter has gone off the charts.

jabrch
10-14-2004, 09:24 AM
See Ya Maggs, hope you enjoy all your money!!! Might want to Practice dodging batteries in the outfield for the next time you're able to roam RF in Comiskey again... I'm Cutting out D and 9volt batery coupons as we speak!:angry: :whiner: :angry: :whiner: :angry:

Hangar thought yesterday was the worst time ever to be a Sox fan... Well it just got worse!
Costco's house brand are cheap - and hard as rocks.

Tekijawa
10-14-2004, 09:24 AM
And if Maggs goes on to play for the Flubs, I swear I will learn to hate him more than I have ever hated anyone in my life! :angry:
Just don't joke that you'll throw Batteries at him... People here won't stand for it!:D:

jabrch
10-14-2004, 09:25 AM
:rolleyes: My goodness - some of you guys sound like spiteful 12 year olds who just had their favorite toy taken away (no offense to any 12 year old posters, of course!). Any player who doesn't re-sign with the Sox is a money-grubbing scum bag? *****. Magglio didn't grow up as a Sox fan on the South Side of Chicago like most of us here. He doesn't owe anything to the organization - just like the organization doesn't "owe" him a big contract at this point. It's a business, that's the bottom line. And getting all pissy towards any player who treats it as such is ridiculous; when ownership stops treating it like a business, then the players should too. Until then, however, it's a free market and holding it against someone for treating it as such is nuts.
Dibber - if he was honest about it, it wouldn't bother me. But the nonsense that he spewed about how much he wasn't doing it about the $ was ridiculous.

Rocky Soprano
10-14-2004, 09:26 AM
Just don't joke that you'll throw Batteries at him... People here won't stand for it!:D:
Maybe if we flash him a picture of Willie Harris running towards him, he will start dropping fly balls like Sosa.

:redneck

Tekijawa
10-14-2004, 09:37 AM
:rolleyes:
Dibber - if he was honest about it, it wouldn't bother me. But the nonsense that he spewed about how much he wasn't doing it about the $ was ridiculous.Agreed!!! I'm not really that upset about him leaving... I got over that months ago when I figured that he wasn't comming back to the southside. I've seen plenty of players leave here for more money elsewhere and didn't bat an eye... this is how capitalism works! But if you lie to me about how it's not about the money, actually get me to believe that the Higher ups in the Sox are yanking you around, which may still be the case, and then you go out and hire the greediest agent in the business, that's when you cross the line... I would have had no problem rooting for him on any other team but the Cubs before this, but YOU LIED MAGGS, and it is for that reason YOU SUCK!

soxnut
10-14-2004, 09:44 AM
Agreed!!! I'm not really that upset about him leaving... I got over that months ago when I figured that he wasn't comming back to the southside. I've seen plenty of players leave here for more money elsewhere and didn't bat an eye... this is how capitalism works! But if you lie to me about how it's not about the money, actually get me to believe that the Higher ups in the Sox are yanking you around, which may still be the case, and then you go out and hire the greediest agent in the business, that's when you cross the line... I would have had no problem rooting for him on any other team but the Cubs before this, but YOU LIED MAGGS, and it is for that reason YOU SUCK!

Amen:supernana:

Baby Fisk
10-14-2004, 09:48 AM
My enthusiasm for next year continues to erode. It's too soon to give up hope, but Kenny's got to pull some miracle moves this off season or this team will finish fourth or worse. And I don't mean some mamby pamby run of the mill miracles. We're talking "walking on water" type miracles. [*not holding my breath*]

:KW
"No problem, so long as you consider my Everett and Alomar moves akin to the Wedding at Cana."

:ohno
*long, anguished sigh...*

mweflen
10-14-2004, 10:30 AM
What is everyone so worried about?

:LTP


Oh wait.... um...
:everett: ?

um...

2006 bay-beeh:whiner: !

Ol' No. 2
10-14-2004, 10:51 AM
As soon as someone says "It's not about the money." you know one thing for sure...It's about the money. Big deal. Who here wouldn't switch employers for a big enough raise? He's certainly not the first player to bolt for the big dough. Get over it.

The fact is, the Sox will be BETTER OFF. For $14M, they can sign Pavano and still have money left over for a decent reliever. All things considered, I'd rather have a stud pitcher than a stud RF anytime.

Jerko
10-14-2004, 10:59 AM
Just remember people, just because the Sox will have an extra 14 mil on hand does not necessarily mean they will spend it.

hawkeyesrule
10-14-2004, 11:08 AM
I'd like to thank Maggs for totally crapping on all his fans here. Boras will not deal with the Sox and vice versa. He had to have known that going in to it. Another point I would like to make is that he has already made enough money to be set for life. Another $10 mil from a different team is money he is most likely not going to spend. This is what's wrong with sports today. There is no loyalty what so ever. It's all mercenaries. Yes, most of us would jump to another employer for a huge raise, but how many of us can say that we would be set if we just stopped working today. None. Maggs could. He took all the support we gave him over the past 6 years and sold out. Flushed us down the toilet. I hope he ends up on a last place team like A-Rod, just begging to get out because he is greedy. At this point, if his career is done because of the knee injury, I really don't feel bad for him.

DrCrawdad
10-14-2004, 11:11 AM
I guess switching over to Borass isn't a surprise when you consider that Magglio was training with A-Rod in the off-season.

I fully expect that Magglio will sign with the Cubbies at the same or close to the same amount of money that the Sox offered, but without the deferred payments.

hawkeyesrule
10-14-2004, 11:11 AM
And another thing-

Yankees and Red Sox will be in the hunt for Pavano. I don't like our chances when you take that in to account. I hope we don't end up over paying and end up with a Chan Ho Park contract...

jabrch
10-14-2004, 11:15 AM
I guess switching over to Borass isn't a surprise when you consider that Magglio was training with A-Rod in the off-season.

I fully expect that Magglio will sign with the Cubbies at the same or close to the same amount of money that the Sox offered, but without the deferred payments.
They are fairly cash-strapped unless they are able to trade Sosa. I don't see them getting a 14mm corner OF. They have a problem with their 95mm budget given some of their contracts and players elig for aribtration, much less their own FAs.

Iwritecode
10-14-2004, 11:20 AM
They are fairly cash-strapped unless they are able to trade Sosa. I don't see them getting a 14mm corner OF. They have a problem with their 95mm budget given some of their contracts and players elig for aribtration, much less their own FAs.

Exactly.

I'm fairly confident that Maggs won't be on either side of Chicago next year...

JoseCanseco6969
10-14-2004, 11:21 AM
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:


I guess now its perfect time to retire my tag...

And if Maggs goes on to play for the Flubs, I swear I will learn to hate him more than I have ever hated anyone in my life! :angry:
I can see it as the return of Sammy Sosa for another 5-7 years on the North Side with the ohh-eeohh Magglio, and people will say, "He used to play for the sox?" I can see myself hating him as much as Sosa. I am about to take down my Maggs plaque and selling this garbage on ebay! i HOPE, and I dont wish injury on anyone, that he isnt able to play well on that knee and he doesnt do squat for another team, preferably the Cubs. Screw you Maggs you money hungry *******!

Mickster
10-14-2004, 11:25 AM
Just remember people, just because the Sox will have an extra 14 mil on hand does not necessarily mean they will spend it.
The "extra 14 Mil" has already been spent.

Mickster
10-14-2004, 11:26 AM
And another thing-

Yankees and Red Sox will be in the hunt for Pavano. I don't like our chances when you take that in to account. I hope we don't end up over paying and end up with a Chan Ho Park contract...
It was mentioned in a few previous threads that Pavano has absolutely no interest playing for Boston or NYY. All indications point to him heading to Baltimore.... :dunno:

Wealz
10-14-2004, 11:31 AM
Unless Boras can restore Maggs' health this has no impact on the Sox. They aren't going to re-sign him regardless of his agent because of that knee.

Foulke You
10-14-2004, 11:46 AM
Well, I think this pretty much seals the deal that Maggs is gone. Scott Boras means there will be no line of communication between the Sox and Maggs. I just hope the Sox plan on giving that money they had budgeted for Maggs into a starting pitcher like Pavano.

Lip Man 1
10-14-2004, 11:52 AM
Scott Boras does what he's hired to do, just like members of the Sox organization are hired to do their jobs.

Are those players greedy? Maybe...but the point is that if no team wanted their services they wouldn't pay what Boras is seeking now would they?

And hey Boras has had his very rare failures, case in point, Kenny Rogers.

Boras is doing his job. As the story pointed out perhaps the Sox need to reconsider their philosophy of not dealing with his clients. Boras has I think over 100 clients, including many of the top names in baseball. Not wanting to deal with him because of 'personal' feelings, is not the way to conduct business and severly limits the ability of the Sox to acquire talent.

Like they say in the Godfather what the Sox need to do is remember their philosophy...'nothing personal, it's just business.'

Good luck to you Maggs, thanks for a great career on the South Side.

Lip

munchman33
10-14-2004, 11:52 AM
Why does everyone think we have $14 million to spend next year. That money is already being spent on Garcia and Contreras next year, as well as pay raises to other players already on the team. The scenerio where Maggs returns is contingent upon the sox trading Carlos or Paulie.

Lip Man 1
10-14-2004, 11:56 AM
Munch:

That's an interesting comment, one that I was thinking about a few days ago after reading some posts practically guaranteeing that the Sox would raise payroll this off season.

I agree with those posters. The Sox will raise payroll. The difference is that raise in payroll won't be caused by acquiring more talent but by being forced to pay the existing talent talent arbitration raises as mandated by the CBA.

Big difference between the two....but technically yes the Sox will raise payroll.

Lip

SoxxoS
10-14-2004, 11:57 AM
Scott Boras does what he's hired to do, just like members of the Sox organization are hired to do their jobs.

Are those players greedy? Maybe...but the point is that if no team wanted their services they wouldn't pay what Boras is seeking now would they?

And hey Boras has had his very rare failures, case in point, Kenny Rogers.

Boras is doing his job. As the story pointed out perhaps the Sox need to reconsider their philosophy of not dealing with his clients. Boras has I think over 100 clients, including many of the top names in baseball. Not wanting to deal with him because of 'personal' feelings, is not the way to conduct business and severly limits the ability of the Sox to acquire talent.

Like they say in the Godfather what the Sox need to do is remember their philosophy...'nothing personal, it's just business.'

Good luck to you Maggs, thanks for a great career on the South Side.

Lip
That is a great post. I am a fan of Scott Boras, although that is blasphamy. I respect people that get the most out of their clients/themselves. If someone is willing to pay it...it's REDICULOUS NOT TO TAKE IT!!!

I wouldn't touch Maggs anyway, this could be a blessing in disguise. If this was Lance Berkman we were talking about, and was a free agent wanting similar money coming off a major knee injury, there is NOT WAY Reinsy would sign him. This is just a special circumstance b/c it's Maggs, but I don't want anything to do with him. The Sox can't take chances of these proportions.

SOXSINCE'70
10-14-2004, 12:03 PM
The "extra 14 Mil" has already been spent.
Reinsdorf's pockets don't count.:angry: :angry: :angry:

Mickster
10-14-2004, 12:08 PM
Reinsdorf's pockets don't count.:angry: :angry: :angry:
Does $9M to Freddy Garcia and $6M to Jose Contreras count?

steff
10-14-2004, 12:16 PM
Does $9M to Freddy Garcia and $6M to Jose Contreras count?

Please Mickster.. don't use common sense here. :rolleyes:

pudge
10-14-2004, 12:27 PM
Did NONE of you read the thread on here in which it was pointed out that Maggs went to Austria and may have an injury that takes up to 16 months to heal??

WE DON'T WANT HIM BACK ANYWAY! GOOD LUCK TO THE SUCKER THAT BORAS GETS TO PAY HIM!

Deadguy
10-14-2004, 12:28 PM
Another point I would like to make is that he has already made enough money to be set for life. Another $10 mil from a different team is money he is most likely not going to spend.
I can't believe I'm actually going to defend Magglio here, but the above doesn't necessarilly complete the whole picture, as far as Magglio's financial resources come into play. Magglio is set for life, but he has to worry about his family, and extended family. There may be cousins, uncles, aunts, brothers, sisters, nephews, nieces, etc. back in Venezuela that Magglio wants to take care of as well. Not just bottom of the barrel financial support, but he may want them to have the best things in life, as well. That 10 million dollar difference could mean a lot to his family back in Venezuela. Even if this isn't the case, just read King of Torts, and your perspective on having millions of dollars at your disposal might change a bit.

And I can't believe people were naive enough to take Magglio's BS seriously. Of course he lied to us. He was simply shifting the blame to the White Sox, if the two could not come to an agreement. It would be PR suicide if he said anything else. Actions speak louder than broken English. I don't feel sorry for anyone who actually took Magglio's "I want to stay in Chicago" garbage seriously. They should have known better, because if that was actually a high priority on Magglio's list, then Magglio would have gone to his agent, and told him to get a deal done ASAP, instead of dragging it out for as long as it was.

California Sox
10-14-2004, 12:30 PM
People are whistling through the graveyard if they think the Cubs don't have enough money to sign Maggs. To begin with, the Cubs practically sold out every game this year, setting a club attendance record in the process. Then consider the fact that they have tremendous payroll flexibility given the expiration of Garciaparra's, Clement's, and Alou's contracts. Finally, they are only on the hook for one more year of Sosa, and Sosa is trying to force them to trade him. Look, I don't want to see Maggs playing for the Cubs anymore than any of the rest of you do, but to say they won't be able to sign him is wishful thinking in the extreme.

Personally, I'm hoping Maggs goes to Baltimore. Or Japan.

duke of dorwood
10-14-2004, 12:36 PM
Maybe Boras can represent Willie Harris too

JasonC23
10-14-2004, 12:38 PM
Scott Boras does what he's hired to do, just like members of the Sox organization are hired to do their jobs.

Are those players greedy? Maybe...but the point is that if no team wanted their services they wouldn't pay what Boras is seeking now would they?

And hey Boras has had his very rare failures, case in point, Kenny Rogers.

Boras is doing his job. As the story pointed out perhaps the Sox need to reconsider their philosophy of not dealing with his clients. Boras has I think over 100 clients, including many of the top names in baseball. Not wanting to deal with him because of 'personal' feelings, is not the way to conduct business and severly limits the ability of the Sox to acquire talent.

Like they say in the Godfather what the Sox need to do is remember their philosophy...'nothing personal, it's just business.'

Good luck to you Maggs, thanks for a great career on the South Side.

Lip
Uh-oh, it's one of the signs of the apocalypse...Lip is the voice of reason in this thread!! :wink:

But seriously, this does mean that Maggs is gone, and I'm very, very, very sad. If screaming about his being a money-grubbing a-hole makes some of you feel better about his imminent departure, go ahead, but come on, let's be a little reasonable about this, OK? All we know for sure is that Maggs had a contract in mind, the Sox didn't meet it, he got hurt, and ever since, we've been hearing conflicting reports from the 2 sides about Maggs's condition. It's very possible Maggs really does love it in Chicago and really would like to stay here, but has been turned off by the deferred money or the misinformation or KW's personality or the blue seats or whatever, and has decided that since he for sure isn't in the Sox plans, he's getting an agent that will probably get him exactly the deal he's looking for.

Or are all of you really saying that if you were in his place, you wouldn't be trying to maximize your contract? Seriously? When it's his first time on the open market? When it's the last big contract he'll probably ever get? :?: I wish I could say that if I was Maggs, I for sure wouldn't want Boras representing me because he's such a jerk...but I can't say that for sure because 99% of the time, he gets his clients everything they could hope for (and in some cases, more).

duke of dorwood
10-14-2004, 12:38 PM
You have been watching


Star Trek VII

The Wrath of Maggs

hawkeyesrule
10-14-2004, 12:56 PM
I can't believe I'm actually going to defend Magglio here, but the above doesn't necessarilly complete the whole picture, as far as Magglio's financial resources come into play. Magglio is set for life, but he has to worry about his family, and extended family. There may be cousins, uncles, aunts, brothers, sisters, nephews, nieces, etc. back in Venezuela that Magglio wants to take care of as well. Not just bottom of the barrel financial support, but he may want them to have the best things in life, as well. That 10 million dollar difference could mean a lot to his family back in Venezuela. Even if this isn't the case, just read King of Torts, and your perspective on having millions of dollars at your disposal might change a bit.

I have no problem if he wants to take care of family or whoever. My point is that for 6 years, he was a very refreshing presence in the sporting world, not just the South Side. Came to work every day, never complained, never showed anyone up, and never show boated. Now he starts the money grubbing. He knows damn well that the Sox cannot afford what some other teams afford. I think he owes it to Sox fans, not management, to work something fair out. If the Sox don't want to give him a fair deal, then he can go to another team with his head held high and I don't think any fans will fault him for that. What he actually did was say he wanted to stay and that he loves it here, loves the fans, etc. Then he goes and hires an agent that he knows is not in the business of working things out. Bottom line is that Maggs is a sell out.

Rush20
10-14-2004, 12:57 PM
Let's stop and look at the facts before we rip Maggs. Let's "ASS-U-ME" that Mags was truthful in stating that he wanted to stay in Chicago. Mid-summer and pre-injury the SOX are reportably close in signing him to a new multi-million dollar deal. However, his agent at the time, convinces Mags with his "professional opinion" that they should continue to hold out for one more year.


Then, "boom" there goes the knee! Now, faced with the original SOX offer off the table, Mags is in the unfortunate position of signing a deal that will be considerably less than what he could have received now that his future is in doubt.

If this is indeed the case, I would fire the SOB as well! As to hiring Boras, well, who better to secure an incentive-driven short term deal. Mags has to prove to MLB, not only the SOX, that he can play and is again worth premium free-agent dollars.

santo=dorf
10-14-2004, 01:11 PM
Just remember people, just because the Sox will have an extra 14 mil on hand does not necessarily mean they will spend it.
:reinsy
"What $14 million?"

Hey! At least we know we'll get a draft pick because Borass will force Maggs to refuse Jerry's lowball offer! Right?

santo=dorf
10-14-2004, 01:19 PM
Does $9M to Freddy Garcia and $6M to Jose Contreras count?I know some of the lesser guys will be getting raises, and Frank will get 2 million more, and Shingo will get a $1.5 million, but we already saved $300,000 with the re-signing of Politte, Valentin's contract is up, as is Koch's. Dump Paulie this year, dump Carlos next year (if Borchard/Anderson/Sweeney gets "it,") and please, SIGN CARLOS BELTRAN! This would be a good PR move for the Sox considering Maggs won't be coming back.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=1999&stc=1&thumb=1

"I will put asses in the seats."

Mickster
10-14-2004, 01:23 PM
Please Mickster.. don't use common sense here. :rolleyes:
My bad. :D:

Man Soo Lee
10-14-2004, 01:25 PM
Hey! At least we know we'll get a draft pick because Borass will force Maggs to refuse Jerry's lowball offer! Right?
If the Sox don't offer arbitration, and I doubt they will, there is no draft pick compensation.

Flight #24
10-14-2004, 01:27 PM
Munch:

That's an interesting comment, one that I was thinking about a few days ago after reading some posts practically guaranteeing that the Sox would raise payroll this off season.

I agree with those posters. The Sox will raise payroll. The difference is that raise in payroll won't be caused by acquiring more talent but by being forced to pay the existing talent talent arbitration raises as mandated by the CBA.

Big difference between the two....but technically yes the Sox will raise payroll.

Lip
That's a fairly arbitrary way to assess payroll raises since the Sox made their in-season moves fully factoring in next year's salary (unless they're absolute idiots). Otherwise, they wouldn't have resigned Garcia, traded for Contreras, etc. In fact, payroll is going up.

To argue that it's not because it's raises to guys on the team at the end of the year is like saying "I don't care what they did prior to spring training, they didn't raise payroll from then on by signing non-roster invitees - cheap bastards!!!".

Payroll on opening Day 2005 > Payroll on opening day 2004 = increased payroll. How much is the key.

santo=dorf
10-14-2004, 01:28 PM
If the Sox don't offer arbitration, and I doubt they will, there is no draft pick compensation.
Don't you think Boras will force Maggs to refuse the offer no matter what the offer is?

Flight #24
10-14-2004, 01:34 PM
Don't you think Boras will force Maggs to refuse the offer no matter what the offer is?
Scenario: Maggs can't get a long-term, biug money deal becuase of his injury questions.

Response: Boras has Maggs accept the arbitration, which means that he's guaranteed a 1-yr deal at a salary no lower then 80% of his last year, which would be about $11mil.

Then Maggs could even sit out the year rehabbing, collect his $$$, and hit the FA market fresh next year.

If the Sox can't get closure on his injury (since he still hasn't met with their docs to get examined), I highly doubt they'll offer arbitration because of the risk he'd accept it. They then would forfeit any compensation picks if he signs elsewhere, and IIRC, they also lose the ability to continue to negotiate with him until sometime in May.

SomebodyToldMe
10-14-2004, 01:44 PM
Well...I guess it's time to put my Magglio McFarlane figure on ebay so punk cub fans can pay up to $100 for it.

jabrch
10-14-2004, 02:04 PM
Scenario: Maggs can't get a long-term, biug money deal becuase of his injury questions.

Response: Boras has Maggs accept the arbitration, which means that he's guaranteed a 1-yr deal at a salary no lower then 80% of his last year, which would be about $11mil.

Then Maggs could even sit out the year rehabbing, collect his $$$, and hit the FA market fresh next year.

If the Sox can't get closure on his injury (since he still hasn't met with their docs to get examined), I highly doubt they'll offer arbitration because of the risk he'd accept it. They then would forfeit any compensation picks if he signs elsewhere, and IIRC, they also lose the ability to continue to negotiate with him until sometime in May.
That's exactly the problem. We can't offer him arbitration - cuz if we did, he'd almost surely end up accepting it - it would likely be the most he'd get for a 1 year deal that would enable him to fish for a more long term deal when he gets healthy.

longshot7
10-14-2004, 02:11 PM
Agreed!!! I'm not really that upset about him leaving... I got over that months ago when I figured that he wasn't comming back to the southside. I've seen plenty of players leave here for more money elsewhere and didn't bat an eye... this is how capitalism works! But if you lie to me about how it's not about the money, actually get me to believe that the Higher ups in the Sox are yanking you around, which may still be the case, and then you go out and hire the greediest agent in the business, that's when you cross the line... I would have had no problem rooting for him on any other team but the Cubs before this, but YOU LIED MAGGS, and it is for that reason YOU SUCK!
What did he lie about and when?

Give him a break. He may never play again, so why wouldn't he get an agent he knows could get him a better contract than he deserves. I'd do it too. Heck, any of us would.

Tekijawa
10-14-2004, 02:20 PM
What did he lie about and when?

Give him a break. He may never play again, so why wouldn't he get an agent he knows could get him a better contract than he deserves. I'd do it too. Heck, any of us would.
Actually if I were him, I'd probably be sitting at home with a broke knee and a 70 Million over 5 years contract with deffered money... We're actually very lucky that he's a greedy **(&(*

nitetrain8601
10-14-2004, 02:32 PM
I for one am glad. Now let's spend some of his money.

Kogs35
10-14-2004, 02:57 PM
That's exactly the problem. We can't offer him arbitration - cuz if we did, he'd almost surely end up accepting it - it would likely be the most he'd get for a 1 year deal that would enable him to fish for a more long term deal when he gets healthy.i may be wrong but if the sox get the contract insured and if he doesnt play basically there not paying him out of pocket. so the only way the sox offer abritration is if that contract does get insured

Ol' No. 2
10-14-2004, 02:59 PM
i may be wrong but if the sox get the contract insured and if he doesnt play basically there not paying him out of pocket. so the only way the sox offer abritration is if that contract does get insuredWho in their right mind is going to insure that contract? I would...for a $14M premium.

Kogs35
10-14-2004, 03:18 PM
Who in their right mind is going to insure that contract? I would...for a $14M premium.
a lot of teams insure contracts that are over 10 mill a year for security purposes. its done in every league

Ol' No. 2
10-14-2004, 03:27 PM
a lot of teams insure contracts that are over 10 mill a year for security purposes. its done in every leagueI know they do, but no insurer in his right mind would touch this one. It's an almost sure loser.

Flight #24
10-14-2004, 03:29 PM
a lot of teams insure contracts that are over 10 mill a year for security purposes. its done in every league
I thought insurance companies were backing out of insuring big contracts? I know that they won't insure contracts past IIRC 3 years, and I'd think that if approached now, they'd either demand a hefty premium or consider this a pre-existing condition (which, IIRC was part of getting IRod's Detroit contract insured -- it's insured against everything but back problems).

Any insurance company worth anything is going to insist on some pretty intensive examination/evaluation of that knee prior to signign a deal that overs it. The Sox docs can't get him to come see them - you think hes going to be that excited about an insurance company's docs?

The more I read about the situation, the more I think Maggs is getting pretty desperate, which doesn't bode well for his recovery prospects. If t were as simple as "longer rehab and it'll be fine", then I would have thought he'd be willing to let the Sox examine him and make him an offer. That he hasn't (or wont), tells me that either he has 0 interest in staying regardless of their offer, or that he's got something to hide.

Palehose Pete
10-14-2004, 03:36 PM
Wow, I guess I should start prepping my Magglio jersey for display in my growing collection of ex-Sox player memorabilia. I have bobbleheads for Paulie and Loizaa (yeah, I know, Paulie is still a Sox, but we all know the rumors) and my most prized possession of all: A signed Billy Koch baseball that I won at a charity auction for the bare minimum bid the day before he was traded to the Fish. I bid for the ball with pipe dreams of chucking it at his head and watching his reaction when he realized it was a ball that he signed. :D:

Kogs35
10-14-2004, 03:36 PM
I thought insurance companies were backing out of insuring big contracts? I know that they won't insure contracts past IIRC 3 years, and I'd think that if approached now, they'd either demand a hefty premium or consider this a pre-existing condition (which, IIRC was part of getting IRod's Detroit contract insured -- it's insured against everything but back problems).

Any insurance company worth anything is going to insist on some pretty intensive examination/evaluation of that knee prior to signign a deal that overs it. The Sox docs can't get him to come see them - you think hes going to be that excited about an insurance company's docs?

The more I read about the situation, the more I think Maggs is getting pretty desperate, which doesn't bode well for his recovery prospects. If t were as simple as "longer rehab and it'll be fine", then I would have thought he'd be willing to let the Sox examine him and make him an offer. That he hasn't (or wont), tells me that either he has 0 interest in staying regardless of their offer, or that he's got something to hide.your exactly right.

Ol' No. 2
10-14-2004, 03:42 PM
I thought insurance companies were backing out of insuring big contracts? I know that they won't insure contracts past IIRC 3 years, and I'd think that if approached now, they'd either demand a hefty premium or consider this a pre-existing condition (which, IIRC was part of getting IRod's Detroit contract insured -- it's insured against everything but back problems).

Any insurance company worth anything is going to insist on some pretty intensive examination/evaluation of that knee prior to signign a deal that overs it. The Sox docs can't get him to come see them - you think hes going to be that excited about an insurance company's docs?

The more I read about the situation, the more I think Maggs is getting pretty desperate, which doesn't bode well for his recovery prospects. If t were as simple as "longer rehab and it'll be fine", then I would have thought he'd be willing to let the Sox examine him and make him an offer. That he hasn't (or wont), tells me that either he has 0 interest in staying regardless of their offer, or that he's got something to hide.I doubt any team will even consider signing Maggs until January. They're going to want as much time as possible to see how he's recovering. If he's up and around and looks like he can play, someone might take a chance, but I would think it would be a contract heavy on incentives. And even then, I doubt any insurance company will cover it. They probably will, as you suggest, call it a pre-existing condition and exclude it from the coverage.

Tekijawa
10-14-2004, 03:47 PM
A signed Billy Koch baseball that I won at a charity auction for the bare minimum bid
You were robbed!

hold2dibber
10-14-2004, 03:54 PM
Agreed!!! I'm not really that upset about him leaving... I got over that months ago when I figured that he wasn't comming back to the southside. I've seen plenty of players leave here for more money elsewhere and didn't bat an eye... this is how capitalism works! But if you lie to me about how it's not about the money, actually get me to believe that the Higher ups in the Sox are yanking you around, which may still be the case, and then you go out and hire the greediest agent in the business, that's when you cross the line... I would have had no problem rooting for him on any other team but the Cubs before this, but YOU LIED MAGGS, and it is for that reason YOU SUCK!
I hear what you're saying, but I think you always have to take that kind of talk with a grain of salt. Players ALWAYS say they want to stay with the home team. Does the fact that they all lie on this issue make it any less of a lie? No, but it is expected. Also, and maybe I'm giving Maggs too much benefit of the doubt here, but think about it from his perspective: a few months ago, he was pretty much assured of a contract worth well over $60 million. Now the injury has completely thrown that all into doubt. If you were faced with the prospect of losing $50 or $60 million, you might be inclined to go with the most aggressive agent possible to squeeze out as much money as you could in the process. Don't get my wrong - it's hard to feel sorry for a guy who has already made well over $30 million and will make millions more no matter what; but it kind of makes sense that because of the injury, that his mind set might be changing over time.

longshot7
10-14-2004, 04:18 PM
We're actually very lucky that he's a greedy **(&(*
Oh geez.... I'm greedy, you're greedy, who isn't? Are you saying that if one team offered you $70 mil and another team offered $90 mil over the same period, you'd turn the better offer down? C'mon.....

DrCrawdad
10-14-2004, 04:24 PM
Maybe Boras can represent Willie Harris too

Well Borass does represent Bobbie Hill and Corey Patterson...

Palehose Pete
10-14-2004, 04:24 PM
You were robbed!

Oh, don't I know it. It sits atop my TV next to the BP foul ball I took off my chest the season before last on Paul Konerko Bobblehead Night. :D:

If Maggs lands with any team in Chicago other than the Sox, I will hang my head and hide my Maggs jersey. With all of this talk about Shammy leaving town and Moisten MyPoo not patrolling left field at Wiggley, the chances for Sox fans having to head north on the Red Line to see their once future right fielder is growing by the day.

Tekijawa
10-14-2004, 04:25 PM
Oh geez.... I'm greedy, you're greedy, who isn't? Are you saying that if one team offered you $70 mil and another team offered $90 mil over the same period, you'd turn the better offer down? C'mon.....
I'm saying that if I saw that Vlad Guerero, who is FAR BETTER THAN I AM, made 70 Million over five years and I knew going into the next seasons free agent market that I wouldn't be the top Outfielder available and I had a 70 million dollar contract sitting on the table that I'd sign it! If he thought that 18 million over 5 years was a possibility then he should be doing brain rehab along with the year of knee rehab he'll be doing!

steff
10-14-2004, 04:41 PM
i may be wrong but if the sox get the contract insured and if he doesnt play basically there not paying him out of pocket. so the only way the sox offer abritration is if that contract does get insured

It's pre-existing though. I don't think insurance would cover it.

steff
10-14-2004, 04:42 PM
I thought insurance companies were backing out of insuring big contracts? I know that they won't insure contracts past IIRC 3 years, and I'd think that if approached now, they'd either demand a hefty premium or consider this a pre-existing condition (which, IIRC was part of getting IRod's Detroit contract insured -- it's insured against everything but back problems).

Any insurance company worth anything is going to insist on some pretty intensive examination/evaluation of that knee prior to signign a deal that overs it. The Sox docs can't get him to come see them - you think hes going to be that excited about an insurance company's docs?

The more I read about the situation, the more I think Maggs is getting pretty desperate, which doesn't bode well for his recovery prospects. If t were as simple as "longer rehab and it'll be fine", then I would have thought he'd be willing to let the Sox examine him and make him an offer. That he hasn't (or wont), tells me that either he has 0 interest in staying regardless of their offer, or that he's got something to hide.

Absoultely correct. Thank Albert for this. :D:

Kogs35
10-14-2004, 05:09 PM
It's pre-existing though. I don't think insurance would cover it.
just a wild though do u think they would have been smart enough to insure it when it got up to 14 in his contract? or insure the whole deal when he signed it 3 years ago

longshot7
10-14-2004, 05:20 PM
I'm saying that if I saw that Vlad Guerero, who is FAR BETTER THAN I AM, made 70 Million over five years and I knew going into the next seasons free agent market that I wouldn't be the top Outfielder available and I had a 70 million dollar contract sitting on the table that I'd sign it! If he thought that 18 million over 5 years was a possibility then he should be doing brain rehab along with the year of knee rehab he'll be doing!
But if you thought that Vlad signed a below-market contract, and your agent had a good relationship with big market, big money teams, you'd at least listen to the offers that came in to see if you could get more than $70 mil.

Lip Man 1
10-14-2004, 07:21 PM
Hawkeye says: " I think he owes it to Sox fans, not management, to work something fair out."

With respect Hawk, you are living in a dream world. This is a business. The owners made it that way years ago.

Maggs doesn't owe Sox fans a thing. He paid them for six years by playing hard, never embarassing himself, his organization or the city he represented. He was polite to the fans, kept his mouth shut and was a credit to the franchise.

His debt is paid in full.

Lip

OEO Magglio
10-14-2004, 07:29 PM
With respect Hawk, you are living in a dream world. This is a business. The owners made it that way years ago.



Lip
How ironic that you of all people say that, Lip.

Lip Man 1
10-14-2004, 07:48 PM
Ironic in what way OEO? The owners ruined the sport years ago. It shouldn't have to be that way since ownership of baseball teams in my opinion is a public trust.

Some owners today DO in fact treat their teams that way so it is possible to have that in spite of the 'buisness mentality.'

Unfortunately our owner does not.

Lip

misty60481
10-14-2004, 07:49 PM
I agree with Lip Maggs owes us nothing did KW take into mind how Maggs felt when he was blowing smoke about trading him for Nomar?? hell no KW is getting what he deserves, besides how do we know for sure Boras wont work out some kind of deal with Sox?? Remember his knee is going to be taken into consideration///

Wealz
10-14-2004, 08:01 PM
Count me as someone who doesn't want Maggs to return even at the "bargain rate" of 1 yr/$11M. There's just too much uncertainty with that knee.

Flight #24
10-14-2004, 08:10 PM
Ironic in what way OEO? The owners ruined the sport years ago. It shouldn't have to be that way since ownership of baseball teams in my opinion is a public trust.

Some owners today DO in fact treat their teams that way so it is possible to have that in spite of the 'buisness mentality.'

Unfortunately our owner does not.

Lip
Despite appearances, IMO there are no, count 'em - zero owners who treat their teams and anything more than a business. There are just those who believe more or less in the value of investment/debt financing as a growth strategy. Or at least those who don't know any better, since it's usually the new owners doing that.

JKryl
10-14-2004, 10:21 PM
He would only get Boras if he were looking else where, because we know the Sox just took a step back. Oh well, we can only hope they'll spend the money wisely. Maybe they can convince Billy Koch to come back!
:bandance: :supernana: :bandance:




You still have to wonder why the spell check can't recognize "Sox".

StillMissOzzie
10-14-2004, 10:45 PM
just a wild though do u think they would have been smart enough to insure it when it got up to 14 in his contract? or insure the whole deal when he signed it 3 years ago
It very well may have been insured, but I think Maggs played too many games in 2004 to have the season-ending/ career-ending injury paments kick in. Besides, any such insurance would expire with Maggs' contract, in 3 weeks or so.

If this is the case, more typical White Sox luck. Pay out the $14M to Maggs, pay out $X for insurance premiums, and get jack @#$% from both.

SMO
:angry:

TDog
10-14-2004, 10:50 PM
Ironic in what way OEO? The owners ruined the sport years ago. It shouldn't have to be that way since ownership of baseball teams in my opinion is a public trust.

Some owners today DO in fact treat their teams that way so it is possible to have that in spite of the 'buisness mentality.'

Unfortunately our owner does not.

Lip
The difference between owners is not that some treat the sport as a business. All consider it a business. The difference lies in business philosophies. Baseball was a business when you were a kid. In fact, Connie Mack, who managed his team before you were born, discussed how it was more profitable to be mediocre, even in his two-team market.

If you want pure sports, you can get rid of all professional leagues and college athletic scholarships (which I consider immoral and most students at most universities resent). I was riding in a cab in County Kerry, Ireland, a couple of years ago with a driver excited about his local football (soccer) team. He explained that the players were doctors and shopkeepers and such fighting for the glory of the community. He asked me how long it had been since my baseball team won the championship, not expecting my answer.

As long as we have professional baseball and professional anything, it will be a business.

kittle42
10-14-2004, 10:55 PM
Why shouldn't Maggs get an agent who can get him the best deal? He has what has in places been reported as a degenerative kneww condition, and had to go to freakin' Austria to get it worked on. Who knows if he will even play next year, let alone be himself. He is a huge gamble I'd rather not take.

slavko
10-14-2004, 11:10 PM
If you've seen Maggs run out a ground ball in anything other than a casual trot, correct me. He did seem to play hard at times, though. I do admire him for the way he had Mariotti believing his knee was 100% a week after he came back from Austria.

steff
10-15-2004, 07:31 AM
It very well may have been insured, but I think Maggs played too many games in 2004 to have the season-ending/ career-ending injury paments kick in. Besides, any such insurance would expire with Maggs' contract, in 3 weeks or so.

If this is the case, more typical White Sox luck. Pay out the $14M to Maggs, pay out $X for insurance premiums, and get jack @#$% from both.

SMO
:angry:
The second Maggs season was over due to injury, I would assume insurance kicked in. I'll see what I can find out. The Sox might have made a bit more profit on the payroll side to carry over to next year..

Flight #24
10-15-2004, 09:18 AM
By the way, check today's Herald for comments form Boras about his relationship with KW & JR. As was noted here, 3 current Sox clients, and discussions with management about others.

Gee, the Trib wouldn't overstate the "issues" between the the Sox & Boras and then run an article about how "Beltran wants to be a Cub" the next day for any particular reason, now would they? And they especially wouldn't set up Beltran by asking him if he wants to be a Cub and then using what was pretty much a stock answer to fuel a headline, would they?

Nah.

Kogs35
10-15-2004, 09:34 AM
By the way, check today's Herald for comments form Boras about his relationship with KW & JR. As was noted here, 3 current Sox clients, and discussions with management about others.

Gee, the Trib wouldn't overstate the "issues" between the the Sox & Boras and then run an article about how "Beltran wants to be a Cub" the next day for any particular reason, now would they? And they especially wouldn't set up Beltran by asking him if he wants to be a Cub and then using what was pretty much a stock answer to fuel a headline, would they?

Nah.
i think a tribune reporter annyoed the hell out of beltran and got it out of him, or it wouldnt suprise me if story was made up knowing the tribisters and all. could the beltran story be tampering since its from the owners of the cubs?

NonetheLoaiza
10-15-2004, 09:41 AM
I don't know if anyone else feels the same way, but this is good for the Sox. Yes, he was our most consistent hitter and was the most productive. It's time we go in a different direction next year. The power and long ball wasn't working. Hopefully what this does is lets us go out and get some ballplayers, pitching and Catalanatto-type guys that get the job done. We still have Carlos and Paulie (for how long remains to be seen), and we played well at points without Maggs in the lineup. I will say, however, next season is solely in the hands of first Reinsdorf and then Kenny. They are going to dictate how next year will end. So lets pray for a good offseason.

Ol' No. 2
10-15-2004, 10:36 AM
Interesting quote from KW in the Tribune article regarding how Boras changes things with Magglio:

Asked if this complicated the increasingly curious case of Ordonez, Williams replied, "I would be putting myself and the organization in a litigious situation if I were to answer that as I see it."

Not too hard to read between the lines there, is it?

Flight #24
10-15-2004, 10:38 AM
Interesting quote from KW in the Tribune article regarding how Boras changes things with Magglio:

Asked if this complicated the increasingly curious case of Ordonez, Williams replied, "I would be putting myself and the organization in a litigious situation if I were to answer that as I see it."

Not too hard to read between the lines there, is it?
My interpretation of that comment was "well, he won't let us look at his knee, and now he's switched to an agent known for grandstanding and even making up crap to inflate a player's value, which tells me that he NEEDS someone to make stuff up for him - ergo his knee is in worse shape than previously thought".

That could be grounds for litigation or at least claims that he's trying to depress Maggs value. But if he were to say "well, we find Boras difficult to deal with", that wouldn't be, so I don't read it as saying anything about the Sox relationship with Boras.

Foulke29
10-15-2004, 10:42 AM
Scuck Fott Boras!

I really hate that guy. He's to baseball (IMHO) what the Anti-Christ is to the Bible.

Kogs35
10-15-2004, 10:57 AM
Scuck Fott Boras!

I really hate that guy. He's to baseball (IMHO) what the Anti-Christ is to the Bible.
maybe if the owners deicied to get together tell scott boras to flip off a tree and tell him all 30 of us say "your fired" he wouldnt be a problem.

Ol' No. 2
10-15-2004, 11:01 AM
My interpretation of that comment was "well, he won't let us look at his knee, and now he's switched to an agent known for grandstanding and even making up crap to inflate a player's value, which tells me that he NEEDS someone to make stuff up for him - ergo his knee is in worse shape than previously thought".

That could be grounds for litigation or at least claims that he's trying to depress Maggs value. But if he were to say "well, we find Boras difficult to deal with", that wouldn't be, so I don't read it as saying anything about the Sox relationship with Boras.I read it EXACTLY as implying a difficult relationship with Boras. Labor laws are very strict on employers tampering with employees' ability to negotiate their best deal. Even saying Boras is difficult to deal with could be interpreted as coersion not to sign with the agent of the player's choice. Employers usually try to tread very lightly in this area.

Ol' No. 2
10-15-2004, 11:03 AM
maybe if the owners deicied to get together tell scott boras to flip off a tree and tell him all 30 of us say "your fired" he wouldnt be a problem.They'd find themselves with a much bigger problem. Not only would they get their pants sued off, they'd have the NLRB on their ass.

Lip Man 1
10-15-2004, 12:16 PM
Flight:

You bring up an interesting paradox with your comments about Contraras and Garcia.

On one hand your point about acquiring those two at mid season being considered for next year's club is legit.

However it's also legit that one could say those two acquisitions should be applied to last season's club given the fact the team did relatively little in the off season after 2003. In which case they haven't done a thing yet heading into 2004.

I don't have the answer... I guess it depends on your point of view.

Lip

kittle42
10-15-2004, 12:20 PM
Flight:

You bring up an interesting paradox with your comments about Contraras and Garcia.

On one hand your point about acquiring those two at mid season being considered for next year's club is legit.

However it's also legit that one could say those two acquisitions should be applied to last season's club given the fact the team did relatively little in the off season after 2003. In which case they haven't done a thing yet heading into 2004.

I don't have the answer... I guess it depends on your point of view.

Lip
I can see KW now - "With the additions of Contreras and Garcia last season, it's just like we acquired two solid pitchers in the offseason, so that's why we did nothing this offseason."

OK - he won't say the last part.

Flight #24
10-15-2004, 12:21 PM
Flight:

You bring up an interesting paradox with your comments about Contraras and Garcia.

On one hand your point about acquiring those two at mid season being considered for next year's club is legit.

However it's also legit that one could say those two acquisitions should be applied to last season's club given the fact the team did relatively little in the off season after 2003. In which case they haven't done a thing yet heading into 2004.

I don't have the answer... I guess it depends on your point of view.

Lip
IMO, they factor into 2 things: 2004 in-season moves (adding payroll, adding talent, etc.), and 2005 (long-term implications of the moves). If you want to argue that they didn't accomplish much in the 2003 offseason, that's fine. The philsophy may have been to see how the team reacted to Ozzie and then potentially make moves in-season.

But to argue that they're not increasing payroll because they traded for or resigned guys with significant '05 $$$ is IMO inaccurate.

Lip Man 1
10-15-2004, 12:42 PM
This is just me but I don't worry about tomorrow, or 2005, or 2008.

Tomorrow (unfortunately) isn't promised to anyone.

Perhaps that's why I admire George Steinbrenner, he tries all he can to win today.

As far as waiting to see how the club responded to Ozzie, again, that's a legit viewpoint but so is the fact that if they had these players (or others) in place from day one circumstances might have taken a different path during the season.

As Joaquin Adujar was fond of saying...'you never know...'

I have found that in most things, it's always better to be proactive then reactive.


Lip

jabrch
10-15-2004, 01:21 PM
I have found that in most things, it's always better to be proactive then reactive.


Lip
Really - will you now only bitch about things before they happen - rather than wait and see how they materialize? I can't wait!

Flight #24
10-15-2004, 02:11 PM
This is just me but I don't worry about tomorrow, or 2005, or 2008.

Tomorrow (unfortunately) isn't promised to anyone.

Perhaps that's why I admire George Steinbrenner, he tries all he can to win today.

As far as waiting to see how the club responded to Ozzie, again, that's a legit viewpoint but so is the fact that if they had these players (or others) in place from day one circumstances might have taken a different path during the season.

True, but they could also have found themselves not responding and with a payroll that's not commensurate with the attendance levels. I'd guess that was the concern. As it stands, the team they had together did very well until the injuries hit.

As for Steinbrenner - I don't believe its so much that he's focusing on today as it is that he's got so much $$$ coming off that team that he can do just about anything.



Lip[/QUOTE]

LVSoxFan
10-15-2004, 03:09 PM
I'm surprised at how personally so many here are taking Mag's leaving. To me, Mags (going into 04) personified the Sox--when I thought of the Sox the first face that came to mind was him. When it was first rumored he wouldn't be back, I thought: no way.

But this is frickin' pro baseball, people. Even the most marquee, entrenched players pick up and go. Maybe Mags is greedy and should've just resigned (in light of his injury), maybe not. But his new agent being an ass**** is sort of a so-what statement, considering on the other side is... JR.

I've long since resigned myself to the idea that nothing is sacred, nothing is forever off the block, even the hometown hero can be dealt. Get used to it; it's never going to change.

I do agree with those who describe the nightmare scenario: I would be pretty damn surprised to NOT see Mags in RF at Wrigley next year. They can dump Sosa and he will be the guy who instantly makes everybody forget Sosa.

Time to toss those Ordonez jerseys guys! Don't feel bad: I bought the AL All Star jersey with a name on the back: Loaiza. Ouch.

Lip Man 1
10-15-2004, 05:31 PM
Jabrch:

He who lives in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Talk about a broken record!

Lip

:cool:

Foulke29
10-16-2004, 12:22 AM
maybe if the owners deicied to get together tell scott boras to flip off a tree and tell him all 30 of us say "your fired" he wouldnt be a problem.
Uhm - that's collusion... which is illegal in business.

diehard
10-16-2004, 07:53 AM
Perhaps by saying adios to Mags maybe the Sox would use their new found money smart. Crede is a failure dump him. Move Uribe to 3rd, get Edgar Renteria, and a starting pitcher, maybe a Matt Clement. Forget Omar Visquel, tell KW it's not 1997 and stop trying to get all the old Indians. Mags will be kicking himself in the ass for years for not taking the Sox offer.

JKryl
10-16-2004, 12:14 PM
maybe if the owners deicied to get together tell scott boras to flip off a tree and tell him all 30 of us say "your fired" he wouldnt be a problem.
That's called collusion my man, and we've been through that before.

gobears1987
10-17-2004, 08:55 PM
I'm not disappointed and that is for one reason. His injury will hamper his career and he will never again be an all-star. He may even miss much of if not all of next year. He is way behind on rehad. If the Sox got him, we'd just overpay and end up calling for KW's head.

We're better off with Beltran anyways. (even if we have to lose CLee to get him.)

C ya Maggs, and I hope you suck the next few seasons since some team will overpay for you.

If he goes to the Cubs, I'll laugh as they will overpay and end up with his injury nagging him. They won't trade Sosa anyways as the only possibility, the Mets said no.

Lip Man 1
10-17-2004, 09:29 PM
Go Bears says: "C ya Maggs, and I hope you suck the next few seasons."

It's comments like this that make me wonder if Sox fans even deserve a winner.

Lip

gobears1987
10-17-2004, 09:35 PM
Go Bears says: "C ya Maggs, and I hope you suck the next few seasons."

It's comments like this that make me wonder if Sox fans even deserve a winner.

Lip It's called loyalty. Maggs has none and lied to the fans when he said he wasn't going for the money. Maggs doesn't give a rats ass about any Sox fans. The only person in his mind is himself. I don't want to see Maggs doing well. Besides, then we will have to deal with all the OMG KENNY WILLIAMS SUCKS HE LOST MAGGLIO AND REFUSED TO PAY HIM $25 MILLION A YEAR or whatever it is.

Foulke29
10-18-2004, 09:40 AM
Go Bears says: "C ya Maggs, and I hope you suck the next few seasons."

It's comments like this that make me wonder if Sox fans even deserve a winner.

Lip
I won't ever wish a former Sox player to suck unless he plays for the Cubs - ala Sammy So$a. However, I'll say this about Mags. I hope he doesn't earn a dime over 2 million dollars a year on no more than a 2 year contract.

He doesn't deserve more. Had he done the right thing and signed the $70 million for 5 years, I'd be preaching that he earned it until the cows come home, but he played a game of Russian roulette and lost.

Boras grabbing a huge contract for Magglio is just what baseball needs - pressident set that players with serious injuries that could keep them out all year do deserve outrageous contracts without proving their healthy first. That's just the shot in the arm that baseball needs.

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 09:50 AM
It's called loyalty. Maggs has none and lied to the fans when he said he wasn't going for the money. Maggs doesn't give a rats ass about any Sox fans. The only person in his mind is himself. I don't want to see Maggs doing well. Besides, then we will have to deal with all the OMG KENNY WILLIAMS SUCKS HE LOST MAGGLIO AND REFUSED TO PAY HIM $25 MILLION A YEAR or whatever it is.He LIED???? What, exactly, did he say that was a lie? He said he would like to remain in Chicago. Is that a lie? Did he ever say he would take a lot less money to do so?

Loyalty? What the hell is that? He played as hard as he could while he played here and that's all anyone can ask. He doesn't owe you or me or anyone else anything more. Geez, you would think he's the first person ever to change jobs for more money.

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 09:59 AM
He LIED???? What, exactly, did he say that was a lie? He said he would like to remain in Chicago. Is that a lie? Did he ever say he would take a lot less money to do so?

Loyalty? What the hell is that? He played as hard as he could while he played here and that's all anyone can ask. He doesn't owe you or me or anyone else anything more. Geez, you would think he's the first person ever to change jobs for more money.
I can't speak for everyone, but to me he did lie from the perspective that per all reports, the Sox came either to or very close to his requested offer. He then declined it. That makes it seem like what he really wants to do is hit the market and hope for a bidding war to get more $$$. He's got every right to do that, but then he should just say "This is probably the only time I'll get to go through the process, so I'd like to do that for me and my family" instead of leading the fans on.

And because he did that, I feel like he's much more of a greedy, mercenary type of guy than I had previously thought, so it's something of poetic justice to see him lose on that bet. I don't wish ill on him, but I certainly don't think that "settling" for a $5-10mil/yr contract is in any way "ill".

As I said - just my personal opinion of the situation.

gosox41
10-18-2004, 10:02 AM
He LIED???? What, exactly, did he say that was a lie? He said he would like to remain in Chicago. Is that a lie? Did he ever say he would take a lot less money to do so?

Loyalty? What the hell is that? He played as hard as he could while he played here and that's all anyone can ask. He doesn't owe you or me or anyone else anything more. Geez, you would think he's the first person ever to change jobs for more money.
Who said he was offered a lot less money? What does 'a lot less money' mean to you? The Tribune said this weekend the Sox were close to matching the $70 mill over 5 years that Magglio wanted. Close probably means within $5-10 mill, not $20 mill far off.

And imagine, a player wanting X dollars in a contract and team coming back with a different number. It's called negotitations.



Bob

Foulke29
10-18-2004, 10:04 AM
He LIED???? What, exactly, did he say that was a lie? He said he would like to remain in Chicago. Is that a lie? Did he ever say he would take a lot less money to do so?

Loyalty? What the hell is that? He played as hard as he could while he played here and that's all anyone can ask. He doesn't owe you or me or anyone else anything more. Geez, you would think he's the first person ever to change jobs for more money.I too do not think him a liar, but he doesn't deserve what he was getting. He'll never be an MVP type player - so he doesn't deserve MVP money. Now to be upset with him for wanting to be overpaid is a different story - it's the American story, and it's a pig thing to do. Hell, the American dream has turned into filling your belly so full that you're ready to burst, and we do that financially.

Do I want more money? Hell yeah! Do I do my job well and receive a fair wage for it? Yes.

To defend Magglio with, if he can get more money, doesn't he deserve it is a vision seen with blinders. The salaries and agents are ruining the game of baseball.

I know we've heard this before when players formed a union and when players broke the 1 Million dollar barrier, but I feel this time is legit, and Mags is part of that little coup.

By the way, Boras sucks, and I wish the owners could still get away with collusion - like they did in the '80s and early '90s.

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 10:13 AM
He's got every right to do that, but then he should just say "This is probably the only time I'll get to go through the process, so I'd like to do that for me and my family" instead of leading the fans on.Actually, he did say something more or less like this. He said at his age it was going to be his last big contract, and he wanted to get the best deal he could to take care of his family. The Sox offered $70M, but A LOT of it was deferred. But the big sticking point was the fifth year, which Maggs wanted guaranteed and the Sox wanted an out. Again, no deception here.

Don't take it personally. The guy just wanted to get the best deal he could. Who here wouldn't do the same thing?

Foulke29
10-18-2004, 10:21 AM
Actually, he did say something more or less like this. He said at his age it was going to be his last big contract, and he wanted to get the best deal he could to take care of his family. The Sox offered $70M, but A LOT of it was deferred. But the big sticking point was the fifth year, which Maggs wanted guaranteed and the Sox wanted an out. Again, no deception here.

Don't take it personally. The guy just wanted to get the best deal he could. Who here wouldn't do the same thing?
Flame away, but I'll tell you that I would not do the same thing.

If I were part of the start of something (The Kids Can Play, TKCP), I'd stick around with my team if the money as close. We're talking about millions of dollars here - not tens of thousands or even hunderds of thousands. Sure, defending his 'right' to provide for his family is honorable - if we're talking about having to choose between food and paying the gas bill, but we're talking about whether he has a summer home in West Palm Beach or in Rio at this point, aren't we?

The argument doesn't hold much water with me, and believe it or not - raised in a UAW family (my dad worked blue-collar labor for Cat for 30 years), I believe in an employee's rights, but not when it's an argument between millionaires and billionaires.

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 10:30 AM
Flame away, but I'll tell you that I would not do the same thing.

If I were part of the start of something (The Kids Can Play, TKCP), I'd stick around with my team if the money as close. We're talking about millions of dollars here - not tens of thousands or even hunderds of thousands. Sure, defending his 'right' to provide for his family is honorable - if we're talking about having to choose between food and paying the gas bill, but we're talking about whether he has a summer home in West Palm Beach or in Rio at this point, aren't we?

The argument doesn't hold much water with me, and believe it or not - raised in a UAW family (my dad worked blue-collar labor for Cat for 30 years), I believe in an employee's rights, but not when it's an argument between millionaires and billionaires.You can make your choices, he can make his. It's a free country. He can choose to play wherever he wants for whatever reasons he wants. How many zeros are in his salary has nothing to do with it. But the original point was he didn't LIE about what he wanted.

Here's another thought...maybe he doesn't think much of the Sox' chances of winning and is too polite to say so.

gosox41
10-18-2004, 10:34 AM
You can make your choices, he can make his. It's a free country. He can choose to play wherever he wants for whatever reasons he wants. How many zeros are in his salary has nothing to do with it. But the original point was he didn't LIE about what he wanted.

Here's another thought...maybe he doesn't think much of the Sox' chances of winning and is too polite to say so.
Then why negoitate a contract there? Unless of course he is putting money ahead of the joy of winning a title.

Then when the player turns down great money and goes out and suffers a possible career threatening injury, it kind of makes him look greedy.

If you believe in Karma, then it looks like it just caught up with Magglio.



Bob

Foulke29
10-18-2004, 10:39 AM
You can make your choices, he can make his. It's a free country. He can choose to play wherever he wants for whatever reasons he wants. How many zeros are in his salary has nothing to do with it. But the original point was he didn't LIE about what he wanted.

Here's another thought...maybe he doesn't think much of the Sox' chances of winning and is too polite to say so.
To quote Shakespeare - "A rose by any other name is still a rose."

How pretty. Isn't that nice... However, a lie by another name is deception. Maybe he didn't come out and G.W. WoMD style and lie to us, but he did deceive us by implying that if the deal right, he'd stay.

Certainly Magglio didn't offer the only deal he'd be willing to accept to the Sox - where's the negotiation in that.

I think that gosox summed it up best with a John Lennon quote - Instant Karma's gonna get ya!

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 10:59 AM
Actually, he did say something more or less like this. He said at his age it was going to be his last big contract, and he wanted to get the best deal he could to take care of his family. The Sox offered $70M, but A LOT of it was deferred. But the big sticking point was the fifth year, which Maggs wanted guaranteed and the Sox wanted an out. Again, no deception here.

Don't take it personally. The guy just wanted to get the best deal he could. Who here wouldn't do the same thing?
IIRC, the latest CBA prevents deferrals past 2 years beyond the end of the contract. So even if the 5th year was 100% deferred, a 2 year deferral on $14mil is a net reduction of 1-2 mil (based on cost a bank would charge you to bring that $$$ forward).

So again - Maggs wanted X, the Sox came very close to X, and he said "no thanks". That seems to me like he's not interested in staying, but more in a bidding war. And while he did say it's his last contract chance, he also said he really wanted to stay, which doesn't jive with the facts as laid out above.

jabrch
10-18-2004, 11:04 AM
Go Bears says: "C ya Maggs, and I hope you suck the next few seasons."

It's comments like this that make me wonder if Sox fans even deserve a winner.

Lip
So says the person who spends most of his posts bashing management.

jabrch
10-18-2004, 11:07 AM
But the original point was he didn't LIE about what he wanted.Except that he said he WANTED to stay with the Sox. If he did WANT that, he would have signed a deal when he was offered a very fair one. Or he'd come in now with a fair offer. What he wouldn't have done, if he wanted to stay here, was hire Scott Boras. Those two are mutually exclusive - wanting to stay here despite his injury, and hiring an agent notorious for milking every last dollar possible.

Lip Man 1
10-18-2004, 12:33 PM
Jabrch says: "So says the person who spends most of his posts bashing management."

I'm impressed...an original thought.

Jabrch...big difference between bashing management and bashing the employees.

No 2 has it exactly correct. As Dan Helpinstein has often commented on this web site and in his books, loyalty is a two way street. If any of you out there think Magglio OWED anything to the White Sox beyond giving his best effort, playing hard, being a credit to his team and his city then you are delusional. (all things that in my opinion he did.)

Besides the whole issue and resulting history might have been changed had the Sox simply given him a straight up contract that offered the most money without any clauses, deferrels and Reinsdorfian options.

To me that would have been the simplest way to get him to sign the deal.

The White Sox felt they couldn't do that... so Maggs felt he had to go in another direction. He gambled, he lost. That's life.

"Nothing personal...it's just business." - The Godfather

Lip

Lip Man 1
10-18-2004, 12:38 PM
Jabrch says: "If he did WANT that, he would have signed a deal when he was offered a very fair one."

'Fair' is in the eye of the beholder. That's your opinion Jabrch (and again I'm impressed at your original thought! :smile: )

What you think is fair is not necessarily fair to the person who has spent his entire life getting to the highest level possible of his profession and overcoming very long odds to do so.

"If you beat odds of a hundred thousand to one to get to the top of your professional you deserve to collect big regardless of what that chosen profession may be."--Howard Cosell.

Lip

jabrch
10-18-2004, 01:40 PM
If any of you out there think Magglio OWED anything to the White Sox beyond giving his best effort, playing hard, being a credit to his team and his city then you are delusional. (all things that in my opinion he did.)
Lip
He owes it to the fans to at least be honest and forthright. Don't say it isn't about the money, and that you want to stay with the Sox, and then go out and retain Scott Boras - thus proving it is about the money and that you have no intention of returning to the Sox.

Alternatively, if it really is about the money - say that. I'll know you are a greedy whore - and treat you as such. But don't play both end - Magglio did owe the fans a lot more HONESTY than he provided.

jabrch
10-18-2004, 01:46 PM
Jabrch says: "If he did WANT that, he would have signed a deal when he was offered a very fair one."

'Fair' is in the eye of the beholder. That's your opinion Jabrch (and again I'm impressed at your original thought! :smile: )

What you think is fair is not necessarily fair to the person who has spent his entire life getting to the highest level possible of his profession and overcoming very long odds to do so.

"If you beat odds of a hundred thousand to one to get to the top of your professional you deserve to collect big regardless of what that chosen profession may be."--Howard Cosell.

Lip
No Lip - Fair is in the eye of the MARKET. Fair is based on the performance of like calibre players. Fair is easy to look at IF Magglio was honest from the beginning.

Magglio Statement A)
I want to be a White Sox for the rest of my career

Magglio Statement B)
It is not about the money

Fact 1)
The reported contact offer (which I believe - and have seen no reason from any source to doubt) was very similar to equal players like Garrett Anderson, and a step below better players like Vlad

Fact 2)
The offer was rejected outright - and no legitimate progress appears to have been made after that.

If A and B were true, and #1 is also true. And #2 happened - the offer is, subjectively speaking, FAIR. I never said it was PERFECT. I never said it was TOP DOLLAR. But there is no objective criteria you can use that makes the reported offer anything other than FAIR. What made it not acceptable to Magglio, IMHO, is that he had NO INTENTION ON EVER STAYING WITH THE SOX. HE FLAT OUT LIED EVERY TIME HE SAID OTEHRWISE.

jabrch
10-18-2004, 01:48 PM
Jabrch...big difference between bashing management and bashing the employees.

Lip
Again - So says the guy who utilizes every post to bash management.

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 02:02 PM
He owes it to the fans to at least be honest and forthright. Don't say it isn't about the money, and that you want to stay with the Sox, and then go out and retain Scott Boras - thus proving it is about the money and that you have no intention of returning to the Sox.

Alternatively, if it really is about the money - say that. I'll know you are a greedy whore - and treat you as such. But don't play both end - Magglio did owe the fans a lot more HONESTY than he provided.Umm...actually, it wasn't about the money. It was about length of contract. Maggs wanted 5 yrs, and the Sox were offering only 4 with a club option on the 5th.

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 02:03 PM
Umm...actually, it wasn't about the money. It was about length of contract. Maggs wanted 5 yrs, and the Sox were offering only 4 with a club option on the 5th.
Actually, the reported final offer did not include a team option in the 5th year, it was a performance-based deferral in the 5th year (per the reports & KW quotes). Paraphrasing KW: "Something to give us so flexibility in the final year, but nothing that would take away from the overall dollars".

So apparently, it WAS about the money.

jabrch
10-18-2004, 02:06 PM
Umm...actually, it wasn't about the money. It was about length of contract. Maggs wanted 5 yrs, and the Sox were offering only 4 with a club option on the 5th.
So you believe that he REALLY wanted to come back when all else was equal and the only gap was the 5th year? Doesn't sound like someone who wanted to come back to me. Sounds more like someone who knows 5th years to player contracts are not insurable so a team that is fiscally conservative wouldn't write one anymore - so he asked for something he knew he wouldn't get - expecting to - in fact knowing that eventually he would take his FA and go for the bigger money elsewhere.

The 5th year excuse sucks. That was the Sox protecting themselves with a PERFORMANCE BASED VESTING 5TH YEAR from Magglio getting hurt or degrading terribly. Lip can call JR cheap all he wants - but that was the right move then - and it is the right move still.

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 02:23 PM
So you believe that he REALLY wanted to come back when all else was equal and the only gap was the 5th year? Doesn't sound like someone who wanted to come back to me. Sounds more like someone who knows 5th years to player contracts are not insurable so a team that is fiscally conservative wouldn't write one anymore - so he asked for something he knew he wouldn't get - expecting to - in fact knowing that eventually he would take his FA and go for the bigger money elsewhere.

The 5th year excuse sucks. That was the Sox protecting themselves with a PERFORMANCE BASED VESTING 5TH YEAR from Magglio getting hurt or degrading terribly. Lip can call JR cheap all he wants - but that was the right move then - and it is the right move still.When a reporter asks him in April if he wants to stay, what's he SUPPOSED to say, "Hell, no, they'll never pay me what I'm worth"??? A lot of people seem to be reading in what they want to hear into his statements, but I can't recall him ever saying anything that even implied that he'd be willing to take anything less than what another team would offer. I don't disagree that it was the right move for the Sox. But had he not gotten hurt, there's no doubt in my mind that he would have gotten a guaranteed 5th year from someone else.

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 02:57 PM
When a reporter asks him in April if he wants to stay, what's he SUPPOSED to say, "Hell, no, they'll never pay me what I'm worth"??? A lot of people seem to be reading in what they want to hear into his statements, but I can't recall him ever saying anything that even implied that he'd be willing to take anything less than what another team would offer. I don't disagree that it was the right move for the Sox. But had he not gotten hurt, there's no doubt in my mind that he would have gotten a guaranteed 5th year from someone else.
He was guaranteed a 5th year, according to the last reports from before the injury. What are you basing the non-guaranteed 5th year on?

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 03:02 PM
He was guaranteed a 5th year, according to the last reports from before the injury. What are you basing the non-guaranteed 5th year on?That was the last I heard on the subject. I haven't seen the reports you mention. But even so, the 5th year is an incentive year. He almost certainly would have gotten another team to offer a straight 5-yr w/o incentives.

jabrch
10-18-2004, 03:03 PM
That was the last I heard on the subject. I haven't seen the reports you mention. But even so, the 5th year is an incentive year. He almost certainly would have gotten another team to offer a straight 5-yr w/o incentives.
So it is about the money?

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 03:13 PM
That was the last I heard on the subject. I haven't seen the reports you mention. But even so, the 5th year is an incentive year. He almost certainly would have gotten another team to offer a straight 5-yr w/o incentives.
Only if KW was lying. His comment said pretty explicitly that the "flexibility" the Sox wanted would not "take away from the overall dollars". So if Maggs gets the same $$$, it's possibly deferred, which per the CBA means 2 years max. That in turn means that the "cost" to him is around a couple of million dollars.

So for all the "wanting" to stay with the Sox, he didn't take an offer that came within a couple of mil in the 5th year of his request.

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 03:13 PM
You have made me see the light. I, too, am a scum-sucking greedy bastard. You see, about 9 years ago, I changed jobs for....MORE MONEY. Oh, sure, there were other things, but it WAS about the money. (Oh, the SHAME!!!!)

But wait...there's more...and it gets worse.

When I got their initial offer, I balked. And I hinted that...I can't go on...No! I must...I hinted that I was expecting another offer!!!!! And they upped their offer.

There's only one thing for me to do. I have to call them and MAKE THEM TAKE THE MONEY BACK!!! ALL OF IT!!! Only then can I assuage my guilt over being such a scum-sucking greedy bastard.:whiner:

jabrch
10-18-2004, 03:16 PM
If you want to compare us as individuals to mlb players, that's fine - I don't think that's an apples to apples comparison.

gosox41
10-18-2004, 03:20 PM
If you want to compare us as individuals to mlb players, that's fine - I don't think that's an apples to apples comparison.What do you mean? Just yesterday I turned down an offer from a business who wanted to give me $70 mill over 5 years. I told them to go screw themselves, insulting me with that low ball offer. And can you believe the nerve of the boss of this company actually wanting to meet with me indivdually. Bob doesn't do that. Bob needs his agent to make any and all decisions for Bob because the only thing Bob cares about is more and more $$$ and by feigning interest in this business there are 29 other business that will give me more more more. Bob can't think for himself and needs to pay out 17% commissions to tell me what to think and when to think it.







Bob

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 03:27 PM
If you want to compare us as individuals to mlb players, that's fine - I don't think that's an apples to apples comparison.With all the wailing and gnashing of teeth going on around here, you'd think no one ever saw a player leave for more money. I don't recall him ever saying he would accept anything less from the Sox than what he expected to get elsewhere. A lot of the Sox offer was deferred, and he might have gotten a better deal elsewhere. He took a chance...and lost, big time.

Or maybe he thinks there's no way in hell the Sox will ever build a winning team (a view shared by many on this board) and he wants to get out as fast as he can, but he's just too polite to say it. In which case, it's really NOT about the money.:(:

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 03:29 PM
What do you mean? Just yesterday I turned down an offer from a business who wanted to give me $70 mill over 5 years. I told them to go screw themselves, insulting me with that low ball offer. And can you believe the nerve of the boss of this company actually wanting to meet with me indivdually. Bob doesn't do that. Bob needs his agent to make any and all decisions for Bob because the only thing Bob cares about is more and more $$$ and by feigning interest in this business there are 29 other business that will give me more more more. Bob can't think for himself and needs to pay out 17% commissions to tell me what to think and when to think it. If someone else had offered $80 mil, which offer would you have taken?







Bob[/QUOTE]

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 03:34 PM
With all the wailing and gnashing of teeth going on around here, you'd think no one ever saw a player leave for more money. I don't recall him ever saying he would accept anything less from the Sox than what he expected to get elsewhere. A lot of the Sox offer was deferred, and he might have gotten a better deal elsewhere. He took a chance...and lost, big time.

Or maybe he thinks there's no way in hell the Sox will ever build a winning team (a view shared by many on this board) and he wants to get out as fast as he can, but he's just too polite to say it. In which case, it's really NOT about the money.:(:
#2: the point is that when a player says "I want to stay, and I want $X / Y years", if the team comes up with an offer that's extremely close to the $X/Y, then they've basically said "We want you to stay too, here's almost exactly what you wanted". When the player then says "nope, not good enough", then it indicates that he doesn't really want to stay, what he wants to do is test the market and break the bank. That's fine, but don't tell the fans one thing and expect them not to be upset when you turn around and do the opposite.

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 03:34 PM
If someone else had offered $80 mil, which offer would you have taken?[/color]







Bob[/QUOTE]
You mean if you thought someone might offer more what would he have done? It's not like Maggs had another offer on the table for more $$$. In fact there was a lot of talk that the $70/5 was more than he was worth.

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 03:48 PM
#2: the point is that when a player says "I want to stay, and I want $X / Y years", if the team comes up with an offer that's extremely close to the $X/Y, then they've basically said "We want you to stay too, here's almost exactly what you wanted". When the player then says "nope, not good enough", then it indicates that he doesn't really want to stay, what he wants to do is test the market and break the bank. That's fine, but don't tell the fans one thing and expect them not to be upset when you turn around and do the opposite.The offer wasn't EXACTLY what he wanted, since a lot of it was deferred. (I've never heard exact figures on that. Anyone?) He, apparently, thought he could do better, i.e. less or no deferred money. And as a matter of fact, I thought the offer the Sox made was a pretty fair one if, as you suggest, the 5th year wasn't an option year. Or even if it was an option year, for that matter. And I DON'T think he's worth $70M/5 years. But if he wants to try to get as much as he can, I'm sure not going to criticize him just because his salary has a lot more zeros in it than mine.

Consider the possibility that he really didn't want to stay, and was just being diplomatic. Can you blame him? He's sure as hell not going to announce in April that he's bolting the first chance he gets.

Flight #24
10-18-2004, 03:51 PM
Consider the possibility that he really didn't want to stay, and was just being diplomatic. Can you blame him? He's sure as hell not going to announce in April that he's bolting the first chance he gets.
That's fine, that's his right. But again - telling the fans one thing to keep them off your back and look like a good guy, then doing the opposite is a guaranteed recipe for failure.

Although honeslty, it's probably NOT a failure since there are enough fans who'll assume that despite the facts, Sox management never made Maggs a realistic offer and so it's their fault he didn't sre-ign.

jabrch
10-18-2004, 04:08 PM
The offer wasn't EXACTLY what he wanted, since a lot of it was deferred. (I've never heard exact figures on that. Anyone?) He, apparently, thought he could do better, i.e. less or no deferred money.

Consider the possibility that he really didn't want to stay, and was just being diplomatic. Can you blame him? He's sure as hell not going to announce in April that he's bolting the first chance he gets.
Then don't lie...that's it.

If it was about money from the beginning, don't say "it isn't about money". If it is about not wanting to be here, then don't say "I want to stay with the White Sox".

I don't care what it is - it is his right to go whereever he wants. But don't lie to me about it just cuz you want to look good in the eyes of the fans.

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 04:40 PM
Then don't lie...that's it.

If it was about money from the beginning, don't say "it isn't about money". If it is about not wanting to be here, then don't say "I want to stay with the White Sox".

I don't care what it is - it is his right to go whereever he wants. But don't lie to me about it just cuz you want to look good in the eyes of the fans.There's a difference between lying and just being diplomatic. When a reporter asks if you want to come back, what's he supposed to say? You can't announce at the beginning of a season that you're bolting after it's over. It's not just to look good to the fans, but what does that do to clubhouse relationships? And maybe he was hoping the Sox would make made a better offer than they did.

I don't know what he wanted exactly. Nor does anyone else. I just think it's kind of silly to be wailing about how "He LIED!" when all he really said was that 1. He preferred to stay with the Sox (True or not, no one really knows) and 2. It's not JUST about money (not that money means nothing, either).

gobears1987
10-18-2004, 07:36 PM
I don't take back my comments about Maggs, he lied to the fans when he said he wanted to stay in Chicago. He passed up a $70 million deal so I feel no sympathy. I hope the Cubs get him. Then they can have another overpaid rightfielder. Maggs will never be what he was before his injury. It will hamper his career and make him an at best average player.

Now in retrospect, I think the Sox should've traded him in June. This is not bashing Kenny Williams as I like him as a GM and no one could forsee the full extent of the injury and him missing the whole season.

I will boo Maggs if he goes to USCF and I'm at the game. He will join the rare ranks filled only by Sosa and Hunter. If Maggs gets a bad contract it will be his fault alone.

Lip Man 1
10-18-2004, 11:00 PM
This from a man who still says Tom Clancy owns the Orioles.

Lip

jabrch
10-19-2004, 12:16 AM
There's a difference between lying and just being diplomatic. When a reporter asks if you want to come back, what's he supposed to say?
Something along the lines of - I'll deal with the off season when it gets here...

However that's different than saying that you WANT to be back. There's a significant difference.

StillMissOzzie
10-19-2004, 12:35 AM
Consider the possibility that he really didn't want to stay, and was just being diplomatic. Can you blame him? He's sure as hell not going to announce in April that he's bolting the first chance he gets.
No, that would be the Jack McDowell method. Of course, after the treatment he got from JR in his arbitration hearings, along with a dearth of long term contract offers, who can blame him?

But I digress. I believe that Maggs won't have the arbitration process to look forward to.

SMO
:(:

gosox41
10-19-2004, 09:15 AM
If someone else had offered $80 mil, which offer would you have taken?[/color]







Bob[/QUOTE]

It depends. For example, my wife has family in KC. I don't like going to KC for visits for numerous reasons. If $80 mill was offere to me to go to KC vs. $70 mill to stay in Chicago, go to Las Vegas, Seattle, etc I would take the $70 mill. offer.

There are certain places that don't appeal to me.



Bob

gosox41
10-19-2004, 09:17 AM
You mean if you thought someone might offer more what would he have done? It's not like Maggs had another offer on the table for more $$$. In fact there was a lot of talk that the $70/5 was more than he was worth.[/QUOTE]
Also, Magglio chose to negotitate here while under contract. It indicates to me that he does like it here and is happy. If he was miserable why would he negotiate to stay in a place and then leave? It would make him look greedy.

There have been many players who said that they don't plan on talking contract during their walk year and will worry about it after the season so it won't be a distraction. Magglio didnt say this.



Bob

Ol' No. 2
10-19-2004, 09:22 AM
It depends. For example, my wife has family in KC. I don't like going to KC for visits for numerous reasons. If $80 mill was offere to me to go to KC vs. $70 mill to stay in Chicago, go to Las Vegas, Seattle, etc I would take the $70 mill. offer.

There are certain places that don't appeal to me.



BobI see. So you'd "like to remain in Chicago", but if you didn't get what you would consider a competitive offer to stay, you'd go elsewhere. Where have I heard that before? Is it a LIE to say "you'd like to remain in Chicago"?

gosox41
10-19-2004, 09:34 AM
I see. So you'd "like to remain in Chicago", but if you didn't get what you would consider a competitive offer to stay, you'd go elsewhere. Where have I heard that before? Is it a LIE to say "you'd like to remain in Chicago"?
I was just talking about having 2 seperate offers on the table. One for $80 mill and one for $ 70. It depends on where the $80 mill was coming from.

But on the flipside, if I weren't serious about staying in Chicago I wouldn't go through the effort of negotiating with them. If I wanted out I would tell them I don't want to talk contract until after the season. That's where the lie is coming from. If I said to Chicago, I'm happy here and like to negotiate a deal to stay I would negotiate in good faith. If Chicago offered me $25 when I saw comparable talent getting $70 mill, I wouldn't sign. But if they offered me something close to the markte (in Magglio's case that would be simiar to Vald money) I would take it.


Bob

Ol' No. 2
10-19-2004, 09:48 AM
I was just talking about having 2 seperate offers on the table. One for $80 mill and one for $ 70. It depends on where the $80 mill was coming from.

But on the flipside, if I weren't serious about staying in Chicago I wouldn't go through the effort of negotiating with them. If I wanted out I would tell them I don't want to talk contract until after the season. That's where the lie is coming from. If I said to Chicago, I'm happy here and like to negotiate a deal to stay I would negotiate in good faith. If Chicago offered me $25 when I saw comparable talent getting $70 mill, I wouldn't sign. But if they offered me something close to the markte (in Magglio's case that would be simiar to Vald money) I would take it.


BobBut the offer they made to Maggs wasn't comparable to what he expected to get as a FA. There was a lot of deferred money. Whether you or I see it as comparable is irrelevant. All that matters is whether HE sees it as comparable.

Flight #24
10-19-2004, 10:19 AM
But the offer they made to Maggs wasn't comparable to what he expected to get as a FA. There was a lot of deferred money. Whether you or I see it as comparable is irrelevant. All that matters is whether HE sees it as comparable.
Even if the entire 5th year salary was deferred, it could only be deferreed for 2 years per the CBA. The cost to Maggs of "undeferring" $14mil for 2 years would be in the range of 1-3mil. To me, that's pretty close. If Maggs thinks it wasnt, then he's basically saying "I won't compromise at ALL off of my demands to stay here", which indicates that staying isn't all that important to him.

jabrch
10-19-2004, 10:20 AM
But the offer they made to Maggs wasn't comparable to what he expected to get as a FA. There was a lot of deferred money. Whether you or I see it as comparable is irrelevant. All that matters is whether HE sees it as comparable.
No - the reported offers were mathematically comparable to the contracts that Garrett Anderson and Vlad Guerrero got.

For the 1,000,000th time, deferred money means NOTHING. For about $50,000 per year per 1,000,000 deferred money can be converted to today's $. Since MLB prohibits deferals past two years, the effect of this is NOMINAL by almost any standards - much less in the context of a 70,000,000 deal. It means everything to an owners group that can not finance by issuing debt, and will not finance by digging into their individual pockets. To the player - it means NOTHING.

If Magglio wanted to stay, whatever was being "deferred" would have not gotten in the way. For lying about this all year, he is nothing more than a scumbag in my eyes. Have a sack Magglio - be a man about it. Don't lie. IT WAS ABOUT THE MONEY. YOU NEVER WANTED TO STAY. And that's fine - I'll deal with that. But you lose a lot of respect for being a liar. And, by the way, I hope you get no sympathy and I hope/expect your next deal is nowhere close to what you turned down.

gosox41
10-19-2004, 12:26 PM
But the offer they made to Maggs wasn't comparable to what he expected to get as a FA. There was a lot of deferred money. Whether you or I see it as comparable is irrelevant. All that matters is whether HE sees it as comparable.
Well Magglio assumed the risks of playing out his contract trying to make an extra few million in the lost interest of deferred money. And he lost. Maybe it was the baseball gods sneering at him for passing up more money then what Vlad got when Magglio isn't as good as Vlad. But it came around to bite him. Magglio had a situation where he was happy and could have made good money. He chose to risk his happiness (he might be miserable in another city) on greed for a couple of million dollars and he lost. He lost big time. Not only did he lose out on his money which is the biggest blow to him, but his reputation. All the fans here liked and supported him. But when it came down to it, it was all about collecting as much money as possible, even the extra couple of million lost in deferred payments.


Bob

jabrch
10-19-2004, 12:53 PM
Well Magglio assumed the risks of playing out his contract trying to make an extra few million in the lost interest of deferred money. And he lost. Maybe it was the baseball gods sneering at him for passing up more money then what Vlad got when Magglio isn't as good as Vlad. But it came around to bite him. Magglio had a situation where he was happy and could have made good money. He chose to risk his happiness (he might be miserable in another city) on greed for a couple of million dollars and he lost. He lost big time. Not only did he lose out on his money which is the biggest blow to him, but his reputation. All the fans here liked and supported him. But when it came down to it, it was all about collecting as much money as possible, even the extra couple of million lost in deferred payments.


Bob
Very well said Bob. That's exactly how I see it. And I am always glad to see GREED get punsihed.

Ol' No. 2
10-19-2004, 02:31 PM
Well Magglio assumed the risks of playing out his contract trying to make an extra few million in the lost interest of deferred money. And he lost. Maybe it was the baseball gods sneering at him for passing up more money then what Vlad got when Magglio isn't as good as Vlad. But it came around to bite him. Magglio had a situation where he was happy and could have made good money. He chose to risk his happiness (he might be miserable in another city) on greed for a couple of million dollars and he lost. He lost big time. Not only did he lose out on his money which is the biggest blow to him, but his reputation. All the fans here liked and supported him. But when it came down to it, it was all about collecting as much money as possible, even the extra couple of million lost in deferred payments.


BobWell, we've finally harangued this to the point where we agree. It's his choice whether he wants to accept less equivalent money due to the deferrals. (And BTW, it's not trivial. Over a 5 yr deal it could amount to $5-10M, depending on how much was deferred and for how long.) I don't consider it a lie when he said he wanted to stay in Chicago because it seemed implicit that there had to be an offer close to what he thought he could get elsewhere. But close is a flexible word, and apparently it wasn't close enough. He had a good offer, but he chose to hold out for more. It's his choice, but there's always a risk. Maybe the baseball gods did smite him down for getting greedy. Once you're stinking rich, being filthy stinking rich isn't really that much better.

jabrch
10-19-2004, 03:03 PM
(And BTW, it's not trivial. Over a 5 yr deal it could amount to $5-10M, depending on how much was deferred and for how long.)

Using what Math? You can not defer payments more than 2 years past the contract end date. How does it work that the deal would have 5-10MM in interest? And 5-10mm? That's HUGE range. I don't buy it.

Ol' No. 2
10-19-2004, 03:15 PM
Using what Math? You can not defer payments more than 2 years past the contract end date. How does it work that the deal would have 5-10MM in interest? And 5-10mm? That's HUGE range. I don't buy it.Two years past the end date is a 7 yr deferral for the first year money. Assuming a 5% discount rate (most businesses use a much larger number), that's a 30% reduction in net present value. If $5M was deferred from the first year, that's a $1.5M loss in net present value just for that year. A 10% discount rate gives a 52% net reduction or a $2.5M loss. Losses from subsequent years will be less because of less compounding, but there are four more years. And the last year may have a much larger deferral. It depends on how much is deferred and for how long, and to my knowledge, no figures are known. Hence the wide range.

gobears1987
10-19-2004, 03:17 PM
Well Magglio assumed the risks of playing out his contract trying to make an extra few million in the lost interest of deferred money. And he lost. Maybe it was the baseball gods sneering at him for passing up more money then what Vlad got when Magglio isn't as good as Vlad. But it came around to bite him. Magglio had a situation where he was happy and could have made good money. He chose to risk his happiness (he might be miserable in another city) on greed for a couple of million dollars and he lost. He lost big time. Not only did he lose out on his money which is the biggest blow to him, but his reputation. All the fans here liked and supported him. But when it came down to it, it was all about collecting as much money as possible, even the extra couple of million lost in deferred payments.


Bob I'll agree here

jabrch
10-19-2004, 03:43 PM
Two years past the end date is a 7 yr deferral for the first year money. Assuming a 5% discount rate (most businesses use a much larger number), that's a 30% reduction in net present value. If $5M was deferred from the first year, that's a $1.5M loss in net present value just for that year. A 10% discount rate gives a 52% net reduction or a $2.5M loss. Losses from subsequent years will be less because of less compounding, but there are four more years. And the last year may have a much larger deferral. It depends on how much is deferred and for how long, and to my knowledge, no figures are known. Hence the wide range.
The deferrals were nothing close to 5mm per season, from year 1 on... Come on - that's just not realistic. They didn't offer him a deal where he was making 7mm and having 5mm per year deferred. That's silly. And since we are talking about what the cost is for the player to take his deferred payment and have it converted into an upfront payment, the 5% rate is more than appropriate given the credit rating of the White Sox should be fairly high. (no debt, and a predictable revenue base)

Ol' No. 2
10-19-2004, 05:12 PM
The deferrals were nothing close to 5mm per season, from year 1 on... Come on - that's just not realistic. They didn't offer him a deal where he was making 7mm and having 5mm per year deferred. That's silly. And since we are talking about what the cost is for the player to take his deferred payment and have it converted into an upfront payment, the 5% rate is more than appropriate given the credit rating of the White Sox should be fairly high. (no debt, and a predictable revenue base)I don't know what the deferrals were, but $5M out of $14M is not that unrealistic. If you recall, Thomas' previous contract was for $10M with $4M deferred. (BEFORE they invoked the "diminished skills" clause.) And very few businesses will use a 5% discount rate. Remember, they're not BORROWING that money, they're freeing up that money to invest elsewhere, so the discount rate will reflect their expected return on that investment. Ten percent is just the average return on the stock market, and is not out of line. Many use higher rates.