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MrKinsella
10-13-2004, 05:49 AM
While we are on the subject of the off season, what pitchers do you think the sox will go after, besides the obvious Pavano race which, I would really, really love to see them win. People say the Yanks will get him, but I think it depends a bit on how the playoffs shake out remember Pedro in Pinstripes is a certain owners strange fantasy.

Ol' No. 2
10-13-2004, 10:46 AM
While we are on the subject of the off season, what pitchers do you think the sox will go after, besides the obvious Pavano race which, I would really, really love to see them win. People say the Yanks will get him, but I think it depends a bit on how the playoffs shake out remember Pedro in Pinstripes is a certain owners strange fantasy.I posted this link on another thread, but it seems appropriate here, too. It's a summary of pitchers that may be available this off-season. A pretty good one, too, except the part where they think they can divine where these guys are going to end up. Take that with a LARGE grain of salt.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/story.asp?sport=MLB&storyid=5857

Randar68
10-13-2004, 11:47 AM
I posted this link on another thread, but it seems appropriate here, too. It's a summary of pitchers that may be available this off-season. A pretty good one, too, except the part where they think they can divine where these guys are going to end up. Take that with a LARGE grain of salt.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/story.asp?sport=MLB&storyid=5857
Good link. Here are who my targets would be given the amount of money we've already spent on pitching (meaning the HIGH end guys won't be in the picture)

Middle-rotation:
Derek Lowe
Bargain #4/#5's: Loaiza, Wilson Alvarez?, Paul Byrd, what was it with Pedro Astacio? Was he coming back from injury?
My #1 target might be John Leiber if the Yanks decline his 8 million option...

I wouldn't mind adding a sinker-ball-type veteran pitcher. Keep the ball on the ground. In pitchers on the FA market I'd be heavily looking at HIGH GB/FB ratios...

Bullpen:

LHP Steve Kline
RHP Antonio Osuna (AKA the ugliest man in baseball)
RHP Jeff Nelson ***IF HEALTHY

This team desperately needs a legit RHP set-up man not named Cliff Politte. If they can add a guy like Kline and a RHP set-up man to go with Shingo/Marte/Politte/ a long-reliever. that is a pretty solid bullpen assuming Shingo can get the job done in the closers role (which I am a tad concerned about)...

HomeFish
10-13-2004, 11:49 AM
RHP Antonio Osuna (AKA the ugliest man in baseball)

I wouldn't mind seeing Osuna back with the Sox. I'm willing to bet that most of us still look back fondly on his June fist pump.

Brian26
10-13-2004, 11:52 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing Osuna back with the Sox. I'm willing to bet that most of us still look back fondly on his June fist pump.

Good call. I forgot about that. That was 2002, right?

Clembasbal
10-13-2004, 11:53 AM
[QUOTE=Randar68]Good link. Here are who my targets would be given the amount of money we've already spent on pitching (meaning the HIGH end guys won't be in the picture)

Middle-rotation:
Derek Lowe
Bargain #4/#5's: Loaiza, Wilson Alvarez?, Paul Byrd, what was it with Pedro Astacio? Was he coming back from injury?
My #1 target might be John Leiber if the Yanks decline his 8 million option...

I wouldn't mind adding a sinker-ball-type veteran pitcher. Keep the ball on the ground. In pitchers on the FA market I'd be heavily looking at HIGH GB/FB ratios...
QUOTE]

The Sox need a sinker ball pitcher, and I think Lowe can rebound for the "Real Sox." He would be a good 3 and Garland a 4. Whoever we try and get, I hope they are a groundball pitcher. I think there are too few of them, and Kenny knows the stadium will have tons of homeruns, so I think he is going to go after power pitchers - which I don't mind either, except they walk a lot and then the three run homer would be common. Small ball doesn't work when the other team tacks on 3-run homers every so often.

sircaffey1
10-13-2004, 11:55 AM
Why not make a run for someone like Percival or Benitez...Moving one of them into the closer's role means that we move Shingo to RHP setup and we got Marte as LHP setup. Cliff fills the 7th inning void.


Also, we could probably pick up a good reliever in a trade involving Konerko. Could a possible scenario be Anaheim? Konerko for Lackey/Washburn/Ortiz and someone like Kevin Gregg? If KW really want to focus on pitching, he'll add a solid closer and pick up a reliever or two through a trade.

HomeFish
10-13-2004, 11:56 AM
Power pitchers also tend to command a lot more money, so I don't see JR getting one.

Not that Lowe would be cheap. I have always considered him overrated, but he is going command a lot of money simply because of his celebrity status and reputation.

bc2k
10-13-2004, 12:19 PM
Glendon Rusch would be awesome to complete our rotation. He gives quality start after quality start and I'm guessing his low cost will save money to pursue other free agents.

Tekijawa
10-13-2004, 12:22 PM
RHP Antonio Osuna (AKA the ugliest man in baseball)

Pretty sure Julian Tavarez takes that title home in a land slide!

bc2k
10-13-2004, 12:24 PM
Pretty sure Julian Tavarez takes that title home in a land slide! No, El Canon is far uglier. Do I smell a poll?

Randar68
10-13-2004, 12:42 PM
Pretty sure Julian Tavarez takes that title home in a land slide!
:osuna

"You're kidding, right? Don't let this airbrushed picture fool you. Old women cower when they look at me!"

TRL
10-13-2004, 01:16 PM
Glendon Rusch would be awesome to complete our rotation. He gives quality start after quality start and I'm guessing his low cost will save money to pursue other free agents.
Awesome? Are you serious?

santo=dorf
10-13-2004, 01:19 PM
The low OBP, underachieving, hideous looking, rightfield brothers disagree.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_400158.jpghttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_400021.jpg

Gosox1917
10-13-2004, 01:29 PM
The low OBP, underachieving, hideous looking, rightfield brothers disagree.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_400158.jpghttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_400021.jpg
MY EYES!!! MY EYES!!! I think I may be temporarily blind now.

Anyway, I think bringing in Derek Lowe or Jon Lieber would end up being good moves. Also, maybe bringing Loazia in as a non-roster invite would give him another magical season. I like Shingo as our closer when it comes to the bullpen, so I think it would be more appropriate for the Sox to go out and get a set-up man and a long relief man. Trading Konerko for reliable pitching seems to be the best move as well as a free agent signing.

Randar68
10-13-2004, 01:41 PM
MY EYES!!! MY EYES!!! I think I may be temporarily blind now.

Anyway, I think bringing in Derek Lowe or Jon Lieber would end up being good moves. Also, maybe bringing Loazia in as a non-roster invite would give him another magical season.
Despite Esteban's NY collapse, he's going to get at least a 2 or 3 years deal in the 2-4 million range, IMO. Someone will take a chance.

Wealz
10-13-2004, 02:01 PM
Despite Esteban's NY collapse, he's going to get at least a 2 or 3 years deal in the 2-4 million range, IMO. Someone will take a chance.
I don't think there's a way in the world Loaiza gets a two-year deal, much less three. One with a team option is the best he can hope for.

Randar68
10-13-2004, 02:05 PM
I don't think there's a way in the world Loaiza gets a two-year deal, much less three. One with a team option is the best he can hope for.
I suppose we'll see, but if you think some teams aren't going to be willing to gamble a few million bucks that he regains the velocity that got him 21 wins... well...

Ol' No. 2
10-13-2004, 02:40 PM
I suppose we'll see, but if you think some teams aren't going to be willing to gamble a few million bucks that he regains the velocity that got him 21 wins... well...I agree. Someone will offer Loaiza the bucks. Just as long as it's not the Sox.

mdep524
10-13-2004, 03:02 PM
IMO, the Sox should sign 2 of

Odalis Perez
Brad Radke
and Derek Lowe.

All three are solid if unspectacular pitchers, and would come at a reasonable but not inflated price tag. That would bump either Garland or Contreras out of the rotation and into the bullpen, or make them bait to use in a trade.

Randar68
10-13-2004, 04:01 PM
IMO, the Sox should sign 2 of

Odalis Perez
Brad Radke
and Derek Lowe.

All three are solid if unspectacular pitchers, and would come at a reasonable but not inflated price tag. That would bump either Garland or Contreras out of the rotation and into the bullpen, or make them bait to use in a trade.
Are you donating 10 million bucks to next year's payroll?

Signing 2 of those 3 addresses the bullpen how? We have Garland as a Cheap 4/5... fine. Get anouth 4/5 and we'll be alright... Have a bunch of holes elsewhere to address too, let's not forget...

Ol' No. 2
10-13-2004, 04:05 PM
IMO, the Sox should sign 2 of

Odalis Perez
Brad Radke
and Derek Lowe.

All three are solid if unspectacular pitchers, and would come at a reasonable but not inflated price tag. That would bump either Garland or Contreras out of the rotation and into the bullpen, or make them bait to use in a trade.Radke had a career year last year. (In his walk year, imagine that!) Don't expect a 3.48 ERA again next year. He's probably going to get overpaid.

Lowe would seem to be a good fit for the Sox. Second highest G/F in the major leagues. But somehow I keep seeing red lights when I look at him. Depends on whether you feel like rolling the dice.

Of the three, Odalis Perez seems like the best choice. He's been sort of up and down over the years, and it's always a gamble taking Dodger pitchers, since it's not always easy to factor in pitching in Chavez Ravine. The bad news is that the Evil Empire will be looking for a lefty, and Perez may be the one they target.

Matt Clement could be another good choice. He probably cost himself a couple of million dollars a year in his late-season collapse. Another good groundball pitcher. May be a bargain.

BTW, if the Sox keep stacking their roster with groundball pitchers, they sure as hell better have a solid IF defense. Crede-Uribe-Harris are all solid defensively, and may be worth the equivalent of 20 pts on their BA just because of that. To me, not giving up an extra baserunner on an error is as good as getting a hit yourself.

mdep524
10-13-2004, 05:03 PM
Are you donating 10 million bucks to next year's payroll?

Signing 2 of those 3 addresses the bullpen how? We have Garland as a Cheap 4/5... fine. Get anouth 4/5 and we'll be alright... Have a bunch of holes elsewhere to address too, let's not forget...
Hey, I didn't say it was going to happen, just that it makes sense to target those guys. Other pitchers likely won't work for various reasons- Pedro, Pavano (ridiculous salary), Russ Ortiz (fly ball pitchers, lots o' walks), etc.

Those signings don't address the bullpen, but I am more concerned with our starters than with our bullpen. Everyone- EVERONE- has problems in their bullpen, and all it takes is a solid reliever or two, plus a minor league hot shot (Bajenaru, Diaz, Cotts, Adkins, Munoz... somebody will step up) to turn a bad 'pen to a good 'pen. So, let's say the Sox sign Odalis Perez and Derek Lowe, then move Contreras into the bullpen where he flourishes a la Eric Gagne.

A bullpen of Shingo, Marte, Contreras, Politte and two of Cotts/Adkins/Bajenaru/Diaz/Munoz would only need maybe one more part to become a very good bullpen.

hold2dibber
10-13-2004, 06:06 PM
Are you donating 10 million bucks to next year's payroll?

Signing 2 of those 3 addresses the bullpen how? We have Garland as a Cheap 4/5... fine. Get anouth 4/5 and we'll be alright... Have a bunch of holes elsewhere to address too, let's not forget...
I think the Sox need someone higher on the totem pole than another 4/5. Because I don't think you can assume that Contreras is a 3. His ERA last year was well over 5. I think he might turn out to be really good, but I wouldn't stake the '05 season on it. He may be the 5 and Garland may be the 4, which means the Sox need another top of the rotation guy. Pavano is my favorite of the bunch, but he'll likely be too expensive. I think Radke would be my no. 2 choice, but I see him wanting to stay with the Twins. Which brings me to Clement, who I would target if I were KW.

OEO Magglio
10-13-2004, 06:08 PM
Alfonseca gets my vote as the ugliest man in baseball.

RichFitztightly
10-13-2004, 06:25 PM
Isn't Urbina a free agent? With his relationship to Ozzie, I'd be surprised if he ain't on the Sox next year.

Another option is signing 2 decent starters out of the Pavano, Clement, Lowe, Perez, Radke, Ortiz group then turning Contreras into a closer. He's a hard thrower the Sox would like to have in that role. He can certainly close the door on 3 or 6 or even 9 hitters if the need would arise. Having that endurance in the closer's role would really fatten up a weak bullpen.

Lip Man 1
10-13-2004, 06:55 PM
No. 2:

I don't know if I'd say this year was Radke's 'career year...' Remember he won 20 a few seasons ago.

Lip

MrKinsella
10-14-2004, 04:14 AM
Contreras as a closer seems like sort of a stretch, does anyone remember last years world series where he pitched from the bullpen, it was pretty ugly. Sure he has the power and the Dirty stuff, A la Gagne, but he does seem a bit unstable. Why not give him a year pitching for the Sox in the 3/4/5 and see what happens, trade konerko and for another starter. If you get midway through the season and Contreras isn't cutting it, which I think he will be, then trade the guy to someone willing to take a chance for some prospects. Sure he has the monster contract, but everybody says he has talent and someone will be willing to take a chance on him.
This way we also retain the opportunity to address the offense and bullpen with the money we should have by not keeping Jose Valentin and either the signing, not signing, or my favorite giving mags a cheep contract laced with big money incentives.
I understand why everyone would love to fix the rotation by signing a top level pitcher from this free agent class, but it does not have any sure Aces. Pedro could be as could Pavano, but they are not definite dominate pitchers. We have two guys that are good 2's in Garcia and Buehrle, so why not let one or both of them try and turn into the dominate aces that we want. We obviously can't buy an ace, that right is reserved for the boss, and maybe the Theo/Henry/Luchino love connection. Also the angels will shell out the cash when a true ace comes to the FA market. But we have to go the route of Oakland, Minn, and to an extent Florida, and let Garcia or Buehrle become the guys who we always want to give the ball, and who we know are going to win.

chisoxt
10-14-2004, 05:13 AM
The large number of FA middle shelf starting pitchers available now makes me lament the fact that we have Jose 'Nardi' Cantreras locked up for two seasons at a rather high salary. Maybe it would have been better just to let E-Lo walk?

StillMissOzzie
10-14-2004, 05:56 AM
RHP Antonio Osuna (AKA the ugliest man in baseball)

Sure, now that Jesse Orosco has retired.

SMO
:gulp:

mdep524
10-14-2004, 11:11 AM
. If you get midway through the season and Contreras isn't cutting it, which I think he will be, then trade the guy to someone willing to take a chance for some prospects. Sure he has the monster contract, but everybody says he has talent and someone will be willing to take a chance on him.
This way we also retain the opportunity to address the offense and bullpen with the money we should have by not keeping Jose Valentin and either the signing, not signing, or my favorite giving mags a cheep contract laced with big money incentives.
If we could do this, I would be very happy. In fact I would do a trade like that right now in the offseason and not even wait for the '05 season.

Ol' No. 2
10-14-2004, 12:09 PM
No. 2:

I don't know if I'd say this year was Radke's 'career year...' Remember he won 20 a few seasons ago.

LipYes, he did (1997). It was the only time he's ever won more than 15, and he's averaging 12.7. But I was primarily referring to his ERA, which is the lowest he's ever posted, and well below his career average of 4.23. Anyone who throws a bunch of money at him based on his 2004 numbers is likey to regret it.

hold2dibber
10-14-2004, 01:27 PM
Yes, he did (1997). It was the only time he's ever won more than 15, and he's averaging 12.7. But I was primarily referring to his ERA, which is the lowest he's ever posted, and well below his career average of 4.23. Anyone who throws a bunch of money at him based on his 2004 numbers is likey to regret it.
That depends of course on how much $ he gets. I don't think anyone would pay him no. 1 starter/ace type money. But I think he's just the kind of guy the Sox need - a solid, dependable middle of the rotation guy, who's going to give you 200 IP, an ERA south of 4.30 and somewhere between 10 and 16 wins. If Garcia is worth 3 years/$27 million, Radke is worth 3 years/$21 million.

maurice
10-14-2004, 03:27 PM
We need at least another #2/3-type guy (Odalis Perez?), especially if Harris, Crede, Davis, and maybe Borchard and Gload will be regulars coming out of spring training.

OTOH, given JR's history, it's likely that we'll have to settle for something in the range of Byrd, Lidle, or Daal and pray that our bullpen will be lights-out.

Barring a couple of major FA signings, I don't see much reason to be optimistic going into 2005.

batmanZoSo
10-14-2004, 03:36 PM
Let's get Guillermo Mota and Juan Pierre in a trade...say for Borchard, Diaz, and others. They have room to play Borchard and he's young and cheap.

Ol' No. 2
10-14-2004, 03:54 PM
We need at least another #2/3-type guy (Odalis Perez?), especially if Harris, Crede, Davis, and maybe Borchard and Gload will be regulars coming out of spring training.

OTOH, given JR's history, it's likely that we'll have to settle for something in the range of Byrd, Lidle, or Daal and pray that our bullpen will be lights-out.

Barring a couple of major FA signings, I don't see much reason to be optimistic going into 2005.If my math is correct, when you add up all the comings and goings, raises due, etc., as it stands now, the Sox payroll going into next year would be about $3-4M less than last year, so they have a little money to spend. You'd never guess from all the squawking you hear around here, but they have increased payroll two years running, and by a significant percentage. That doesn't necessarily mean they will increase again next year, but only the most determined pessimists (you know who you are!) will insist they absolutely won't, either. They wouldn't have to increase by that much to land a guy like Perez, who will probably go for about $7-8M. And without trading anybody away. They also could possibly entice a bigger fish with a back-loaded contract since they have two big contracts up after 2005.

Perez seems like a likely target since we all know Kenny was hot after him last off-season, and when Kenny decides he wants a player, he doesn't give up easily.

gobears1987
10-14-2004, 05:57 PM
Alfonseca gets my vote as the ugliest man in baseball. It's Alfonsucka!