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Foulke29
10-12-2004, 06:00 PM
What do you think? Do the Sox have a chance at Nomar? Should the go for him if he's interested. I heard that Mia is from the Chicagoland area and wants to make babies near 'home.' Now if I were Nomar, I'd be looking to stay in Chicago... and would you really want to play for the sCrubs again if you had a choice?

:dtroll:

FightingBillini
10-12-2004, 06:06 PM
We dont need him. I dont want him. He is a good hitter, a defensive liability, and injury prone. He is gonna want way too much money. Let him stay with the Cubs, he seems to love choking in the playoffs.

HomeFish
10-12-2004, 06:07 PM
There's no way we could outbid the accursed ones. With Sosa possibly becoming a Met, they need somebody to build a drunken personality cult around.

Nomar has played that role well.

Jjav829
10-12-2004, 06:10 PM
No thanks. I'd rather use the money to sign a top pitcher to go with Buehrle and Freddy. If we are going to give big money to a position player, it should be Beltran.

Besides, I thought Mia (and Nomar) wanted to go to the West Coast.

Over By There
10-12-2004, 06:13 PM
No thanks. Too many questions with his injury situation and his attitude in the clubhouse. It'll be interesting to see how much $$ he gets.

kittle42
10-12-2004, 06:18 PM
No thanks.

SoxxoS
10-12-2004, 06:40 PM
I'd like to pass that one, Bob.

SoxFan76
10-12-2004, 06:45 PM
Yeah, Nomar sucks. There is a reason the Red Cubs wanted to dump his ass.

Foulke29
10-12-2004, 06:52 PM
:bandance: Well, should we court him?

Palehose13
10-12-2004, 06:55 PM
Yep.

Ol' No. 2
10-12-2004, 06:58 PM
Yep.Only AFTER they've taken care of the pitching needs. Improving the pitching (both starting and BP) is a much higher priority than another infielder. Besides, I like the Juan Pierre idea a lot better. He's cheaper, younger, and fills a hole in the OF.

nitetrain8601
10-12-2004, 07:00 PM
Is Pierre a FA? If not, why would FLA want to give up a young, verry good lead-off hitter who plays CF for I'm presumbing PK who's expensive. I know they need more boppers, but PK would be too expensive. They would be looking for something similiar to Carlos Lee on his rookie contract.

The Wimperoo
10-12-2004, 07:02 PM
I think David Eckstein should be the real answer at SS. FA, not going to demand a ton of money probably 4-5 mil, solid glove, good obp guy, does the "little things", and fills a hole on the team.

Palehose13
10-12-2004, 07:03 PM
Only AFTER they've taken care of the pitching needs. Improving the pitching (both starting and BP) is a much higher priority than another infielder. Besides, I like the Juan Pierre idea a lot better. He's cheaper, younger, and fills a hole in the OF.
Yep. After Pavano, and maybe Beltran.

nitetrain8601
10-12-2004, 07:03 PM
Nomar doesn't suck. I would like to see him if he wanted to come here and be part of the Sox atmosphere. With that said, I don't think he does and if he played here it would only because the Sox courted him with the dough. He has ability and is a great SS. But he would have to be healthy and willing.

Ol' No. 2
10-12-2004, 07:03 PM
Is Pierre a FA? If not, why would FLA want to give up a young, verry good lead-off hitter who plays CF for I'm presumbing PK who's expensive. I know they need more boppers, but PK would be too expensive. They would be looking for something similiar to Carlos Lee on his rookie contract.Check the other thread on this. The Marlins supposedly have a young stud CF, making Pierre movable. What it would take to get him is still uncertain.

Palehose13
10-12-2004, 07:04 PM
I think David Eckstein should be the real answer at SS. FA, not going to demand a ton of money probably 4-5 mil, solid glove, good obp guy, does the "little things", and fills a hole on the team.
Hmmmm..maybe. I'm willing to look at all the possibilities. Just say "NO" to Jose!

nitetrain8601
10-12-2004, 07:04 PM
I think David Eckstein should be the real answer at SS. FA, not going to demand a ton of money probably 4-5 mil, solid glove, good obp guy, does the "little things", and fills a hole on the team.
Isn't he the short SS? I say no. He's alright, but he would do nothing for this team IMO. Just another Uribe, a little worse. He's a grinder, but I don't think he would do anything for this team.

hold2dibber
10-12-2004, 07:11 PM
I think David Eckstein should be the real answer at SS. FA, not going to demand a ton of money probably 4-5 mil, solid glove, good obp guy, does the "little things", and fills a hole on the team.
I don't know. Eckstein's career OBP is .347 and he's been at .339 and .325 the last two years, respectively. He has no power and is no better than average defensively. He does steal the occassional base (16 in '04 and 16 in '03) and I agree that he is a hard-nosed, give-it-all-you-got kind of guy, which the Sox do lack. I guess over-all I wouldn't mind having him, but I'd rather have more pitching; so if signing him meant the Sox couldn't get a FA bullpen arm, I'd pass.

Ol' No. 2
10-12-2004, 07:13 PM
Yep. After Pavano, and maybe Beltran.People have to start getting over this fixation on Beltran. HE AIN'T COMING!!! And for what it would cost to get him, I don't think he's worth it. For that kind of money they could out-bid the Yankers for Pavano and have enough left over for TWO good relief pitchers. No contest.

HomeFish
10-12-2004, 07:14 PM
Ridiculous. No FA of Renteria's or Eckstein's caliber would sign with the White Sox.

Palehose13
10-12-2004, 07:18 PM
People have to start getting over this fixation on Beltran. HE AIN'T COMING!!! And for what it would cost to get him, I don't think he's worth it. For that kind of money they could out-bid the Yankers for Pavano and have enough left over for TWO good relief pitchers. No contest.
Hence the deep pink. :D:

cornball
10-12-2004, 07:19 PM
Serious question: why would Pavano or Renteria or Beltran or whoever want to play for the White Sox if they don't overpay?

I say this because all of the big money teams will be after them and most of them have recent playoff history.

fusillirob1983
10-12-2004, 07:22 PM
If he's signed to the $5 million that will not be going to Valentin next year, then I'm all for it. Otherwise don't worry about him.

hold2dibber
10-12-2004, 07:23 PM
Ridiculous. No FA of Renteria's or Eckstein's caliber would sign with the White Sox.
What are you talking about? I agree that there probably are places those guys would rather play, but Albert Belle signed here (and he was without a doubt the premier free agent that year), Freddy Garcia just signed here, Everett wanted to sign here last off season, etc. And Renteria and Eckstein aren't nearly in the class of, for example, Pedro or Nomar or Beltran. I think you're selling the Sox way short if you don't think they can sign guys like Renteria or Eckstein.

cornball
10-12-2004, 07:24 PM
Nomar would be an enormous improvement at SS over what we have seen the past several years. I am not sure why anyone would not want him with the exception of his injuries....and plenty of them.

If Nomar thinks he is going to make 10MM+, I believe he is dreaming. I would say only if the money is right, remember we are on a budget.:whiner:

Pitching and more pitching is the need and first priority.

hold2dibber
10-12-2004, 07:26 PM
Serious question: why would Pavano or Renteria or Beltran or whoever want to play for the White Sox if they don't overpay?

I say this because all of the big money teams will be after them and most of them have recent playoff history.
Why did Freddy Garcia sign here? He would be in the same boat as Pavano if he hadn't, yet he decided to pull the trigger and stay with the Sox.

I think Ozzie and KW can be pretty good sales men. And while the Sox don't have recent playoff history on their side, they do have the City of Chicago and the fact that KW obviously tries like hell, every year, to win. I'm not saying it's a slam dunk, but I don't think it is outlandish to think that the Sox could sign a top tier free agent (assuming, of course, that JR authorizes the expenditure).

munchman33
10-12-2004, 07:27 PM
Ridiculous. No FA of Renteria's or Eckstein's caliber would sign with the White Sox.
HomeFish out of all the trolls on this site, you're the one I dislike the most. FA go where the money is. If the Sox are looking to spend, they'll get who they want.

cornball
10-12-2004, 07:32 PM
Why did Freddy Garcia sign here? He would be in the same boat as Pavano if he hadn't, yet he decided to pull the trigger and stay with the Sox.

I think Ozzie and KW can be pretty good sales men. And while the Sox don't have recent playoff history on their side, they do have the City of Chicago and the fact that KW obviously tries like hell, every year, to win. I'm not saying it's a slam dunk, but I don't think it is outlandish to think that the Sox could sign a top tier free agent (assuming, of course, that JR authorizes the expenditure).
Why did Freddie sign here? All reports said Ozzie was a huge part of it.

If you were a FA and money was equal would you sign with a team that had a shot at a ring year in and year out or sign with the Sox? That is the question. Why didn't Colon resign? We haven't had a huge FA signing since Albert Belle and how many years ago is that now....and we overpaid then.

Don't get me wrong, I want them all. Playing devil's advocate, but legitamate questions.

minastirith67
10-12-2004, 07:34 PM
:roflmao: :nuts:

OEO Magglio
10-12-2004, 07:40 PM
No thanks. If we're going to shell out big bucks to a fa it should be Pavano, imo.

fquaye149
10-12-2004, 07:50 PM
is a great SS.
except for that part about playing D

munchman33
10-12-2004, 07:57 PM
Why did Freddie sign here? All reports said Ozzie was a huge part of it.

If you were a FA and money was equal would you sign with a team that had a shot at a ring year in and year out or sign with the Sox? That is the question. Why didn't Colon resign? We haven't had a huge FA signing since Albert Belle and how many years ago is that now....and we overpaid then.

Don't get me wrong, I want them all. Playing devil's advocate, but legitamate questions.
The market got crazy in recent years, but its moving back towards us. That and the new lucrative TV contract we got might convince Jerry to open the purse a little more.

mjmcend
10-12-2004, 08:01 PM
If he's signed to the $5 million that will not be going to Valentin next year, then I'm all for it. Otherwise don't worry about him.
He is not gonna even listen to a deal that is anywhere in the ballpark of 5 million. Remember he turned down a 4 year, 60 million conrtract already. Although I don't think he will get that much on the open market, he is gonna get 10 million plus from some loser team. Hopefully that is team is not ours.

OEO Magglio
10-12-2004, 08:03 PM
What are you talking about? I agree that there probably are places those guys would rather play, but Albert Belle signed here (and he was without a doubt the premier free agent that year), Freddy Garcia just signed here, Everett wanted to sign here last off season, etc. And Renteria and Eckstein aren't nearly in the class of, for example, Pedro or Nomar or Beltran. I think you're selling the Sox way short if you don't think they can sign guys like Renteria or Eckstein.
I agree with the premise of your post, however imo Renteria>Nomar and homefish if we can't sign a player the quality of David Eckstein we have serious, serious issues.

shagar69
10-12-2004, 08:41 PM
Check the other thread on this. The Marlins supposedly have a young stud CF, making Pierre movable. What it would take to get him is still uncertain.
yeah, his name is eric reed. he's supposdley faster than pierre and better defenively. but he hasnt even been in AAA yet. i think that this pierre stuff is getting way overblown. i dont think that the fish would trade pierre and count on a 23 year old AA OF.

fusillirob1983
10-12-2004, 08:48 PM
I know he won't listen to $5 million. I think it's a joke that people think Nomar will sign with the Sox. I compared him to Jose Valentin. There is obviously a difference.

MisterB
10-12-2004, 09:11 PM
I agree with the premise of your post, however imo Renteria>Nomar and homefish if we can't sign a player the quality of David Eckstein we have serious, serious issues.
Eckstein isn't a FA anyway, so the point is moot.

batmanZoSo
10-12-2004, 09:28 PM
:bandance: Well, should we court him?

What's the going rate? I know I set a moderate ceiling for .282 with 10 homers. Uribe had a better year than he did.

OEO Magglio
10-12-2004, 10:02 PM
Eckstein isn't a FA anyway, so the point is moot.
I wasn't saying to go sign him anyway, my point was Eckstein isn't a superstar caliber player and if he's out of the sox league as far as free agent signings go, we'd have some serious issues.

beckett21
10-12-2004, 10:10 PM
Ridiculous. No FA of Renteria's or Eckstein's caliber would sign with the White Sox.No. This statement is ridiculous.

:bs:

Brian26
10-12-2004, 10:20 PM
And Renteria and Eckstein aren't nearly in the class of, for example, Pedro or Nomar or Beltran. I think you're selling the Sox way short if you don't think they can sign guys like Renteria or Eckstein.
I'd be blown away if the Sox could sign Renteria. Absolutely blown away. Would love to have him...but I know a lot of teams out there will be after him.

Kuzman
10-12-2004, 10:27 PM
no offense but, did what he do on the northside not worry about what a longterm contract would hold for the white sox? He played what? 2/3 of the games with the cubs? and he was only here for what 58 games? no thanks go after renteria or cabrera for that kind of money.

OEO Magglio
10-12-2004, 10:29 PM
no offense but, did what he do on the northside not worry about what a longterm contract would hold for the white sox? He played what? 2/3 of the games with the cubs? and he was only here for what 58 games? no thanks go after renteria or cabrera for that kind of money.
Cabrera is just a more expensive and less effective version of Juan Uribe.

Tragg
10-12-2004, 10:50 PM
What do you think? Do the Sox have a chance at Nomar? Should the go for him if he's interested. I heard that Mia is from the Chicagoland area and wants to make babies near 'home.' Now if I were Nomar, I'd be looking to stay in Chicago... and would you really want to play for the sCrubs again if you had a choice?

:dtroll:

Chance? Do we want him?

He's expensive
Incessantly injured
He mopes and complains
And when you cut throught 10 years of Gammons hype, he's not a great player

I should think the question is do we want him and I would say NOOOoooo

MrKinsella
10-13-2004, 04:57 AM
Come on guys lets start looking at some realistic options not these clowns like renteria and nomar, hell if we are going ot go after them, why not just resign Jose Valentin (his mustache is a good clubhouse presence), and trade for Tom Gordon and Mike Mussina as some yutz on the official site said. Lets look at players that are young, fresh, and still a little flashy. Lets talk about a guy who is playing in the ALCS right now, lets talk about Orlando Cabrera. From what I see the guys contract is coming ot an end and barring the fact that he somehow becomes some sort of Red Sox legend over the next week, it seems he should be available. Here is a Defensive stud, who loves to play every day, he's like if ozzie could come out of the dugout and play on the field. He has a pretty good stick to and, I know this is a shocking idea but he would bring a little speed to our slow slugging sox. I know we would need to end things with maggs and this is a sad thought but sentiment is not going to heal that brittle knee. If we cut him and Jose Valentin, (please Ken Williams don't resign this strike out machine), we could stiull sign a little bullpen talent, or trade for another starter. I like the idea that getting rid of maggs would give us a shot at Beltran, he's far superior to Cabrera, but that wont help fill out this roster because it will continue to stack players up in the outfield, (gload, rowand, lee, beltran, and all our toip prospects). Let me know what you guys think about this. PS What other starters are going to be available for Kenny to hunt down.

oldcomiskey
10-13-2004, 07:15 AM
ahh another misguided Juan Uribe fan--what if we cant aquire a SS after we get rid of Jose---as for his strikeouts Ill take them over a double play anyday

MrKinsella
10-13-2004, 07:37 AM
So lets take your statment that they don't sign another SS and we are stuck, if you could call it that with Juan Uribe. That means we are stuck with a player who hit .067 better then Valentin, had far better on base percentage, and better ops despite hitting seven less home runs then Valentin. Also we would be stuck with an extra couple million to go after another free agent, possibly a pitcher. I understand your loyalty toward Valentin but its time for both player and organization to part ways.

SSN721
10-13-2004, 07:45 AM
Well here is another misguided Juan Uribe fan. If we could get Renteria great but other then that I would have no problem next year seeing what Uribe could do on a full time basis starting at short. I know he had a long slump in the middle of the season but he certainly bookended the year quite nicely with his hitting, and I think his defense was more then solid in any position he played all year. I want to see him play full time at third or at short.

Gosox1917
10-13-2004, 09:50 AM
Not to turn this into a celebration of Uribe but since we're on the subject Uribe had better stats than Jose overall. If the sox use their money to go out and get a quality SP and some reliable bullpen help, I would be happy with Uribe at SS next year.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/stats/cws_sortable_player_stats.jsp?section1=1&section2=1&section3=1&statSet1=null&statSet2=null&statSet3=null&statType=1&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2004&baseballScope=cha&prevPage1=1&readBoxes=true&sitSplit=&venueID=&subScope=pos&teamPosCode=all&box3=XXXX346874cha4&box6=XXXX123610cha6&compare.x=25&compare.y=7
Here's a comparison of their stats.

Ol' No. 2
10-13-2004, 10:36 AM
PS What other starters are going to be available for Kenny to hunt down.Rotoworld had a good summary a while back on FA pitchers.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/story.asp?sport=MLB&storyid=5857

markfromthechi
10-13-2004, 10:49 AM
Is Pierre a FA? If not, why would FLA want to give up a young, verry good lead-off hitter who plays CF for I'm presumbing PK who's expensive. I know they need more boppers, but PK would be too expensive. They would be looking for something similiar to Carlos Lee on his rookie contract.
Not sure if Pierre is a FA, but i read in another thread that FL has a stud in their farm system that can replace Pierre......

Wealz
10-13-2004, 11:37 AM
Uribe at short is a better option than Crede at third which is why, if the Sox were going to big make a splash in the FA market, they should target Adrian Beltre.

Flight #24
10-13-2004, 11:53 AM
Uribe at short is a better option than Crede at third which is why, if the Sox were going to big make a splash in the FA market, they should target Adrian Beltre.
Adrian Beltre is Spanish for "Free Agent Year". Given what he'll command, and his lack of an established history of high performance, I'd be leery of him. I'd rather put any big bucks into a more proven player or a pitcher.

sircaffey1
10-13-2004, 12:03 PM
I'd be blown away if the Sox could sign Renteria. Absolutely blown away. Would love to have him...but I know a lot of teams out there will be after him.
Edgar Renteria is probably the most overrated FA out there. Sure he'll hit .290-.300, play tremendous D, but thats about it. He hits for very little power, his OBP this year was .327(yuck), and his SB numbers of 17 for 28 are ****ty. If you want to invest 10-12 million in this guy over 4-5 years you are crazy. I'd rather have Omar for 7 million less for virtually the same production. Not to mention Renteria has those stats hitting in one of the best lineup ever.

TwinsGeek
10-13-2004, 12:40 PM
Have the White Sox indicated that they would be willing to stick with Uribe as the starting SS for next year? Or is it assumed they'll do some shopping on the free agent market?

I'm asking because I'm writing some entries on TwinsGeek.com about Cristian Guzman and the market he might face if the Twins don't pick up his $5.25 M option. (Incidentally, you'll find a list of probably FA shortstops there, if you want to kick around some other names).

I must admit, Guzy to the White Sox seems like a decent fit (good glove, little things myth, young with the potential to explode). It would pretty much kill me if he blossomed with you guys.

petekat
10-13-2004, 07:01 PM
Not only that, but MIa's sports marketing firm is based here in Chicago!!



What do you think? Do the Sox have a chance at Nomar? Should the go for him if he's interested. I heard that Mia is from the Chicagoland area and wants to make babies near 'home.' Now if I were Nomar, I'd be looking to stay in Chicago... and would you really want to play for the sCrubs again if you had a choice?

:dtroll:

MrKinsella
10-14-2004, 06:30 AM
Please no Nomar, he isn't the same player he was, and he certainly isn't a team leader as some have suggested. The Red Sox dealt him because they new he would not help them in winning a world series and he wont help us. The Cubs went out and got him because, and I'm sure ill get some agreement here, they were dumb enough to think they could make him want to win again under skat man Baker. It didn't work and now lets please send him and Mia off to the wild and wonderful NL west. His extra base hits fell off in Wrigley, just think what they'll do at dodgers stadium.

SSN721
10-14-2004, 07:25 AM
Have the White Sox indicated that they would be willing to stick with Uribe as the starting SS for next year? Or is it assumed they'll do some shopping on the free agent market?

I'm asking because I'm writing some entries on TwinsGeek.com about Cristian Guzman and the market he might face if the Twins don't pick up his $5.25 M option. (Incidentally, you'll find a list of probably FA shortstops there, if you want to kick around some other names).

I must admit, Guzy to the White Sox seems like a decent fit (good glove, little things myth, young with the potential to explode). It would pretty much kill me if he blossomed with you guys.

Not that I can say I watched every Twins game, but I must say that Guzman has never really impressed me a lot. I mean he is a decent player, but in my eyes I dont really see him as a much better option then Uribe has shown in the last year. I think Uribe will be a better option for the Sox because he is good defensively, has power, decent hitter, decent speed, and much cheaper. BUt who knows, maybe Kenny will liek the idea of raiding the Twins, and pick up Guzman and Radke, but personally I would rather just have Radke of the two.

mdep524
10-14-2004, 11:07 AM
Not that I can say I watched every Twins game, but I must say that Guzman has never really impressed me a lot. I mean he is a decent player, but in my eyes I dont really see him as a much better option then Uribe has shown in the last year. I think Uribe will be a better option for the Sox because he is good defensively, has power, decent hitter, decent speed, and much cheaper. BUt who knows, maybe Kenny will liek the idea of raiding the Twins, and pick up Guzman and Radke, but personally I would rather just have Radke of the two.
Totally agreed. Cristian Guzman does not impress me at all. Defensively, Uribe's better. Offensively, Uribe's better. And Uribe's cheaper. Radke, on the other hand, would be perfect for the Sox.

Etownsox13
10-14-2004, 06:31 PM
i don't want a banged up, overpriced Nomar. If we go after a FA shortstop it should be Orlando Cabrarra.

Pea-Pod
10-14-2004, 06:31 PM
The Brewer's declined Craig Counsell's option. What are the chances we see him in a Sox uniform? And would he be any good for us?

Pea-Pod
10-14-2004, 06:33 PM
oops, didnt see shortstop options post

ondafarm
10-14-2004, 06:35 PM
Wilson Valdez will be the main SS for 2005.

bafiarocks03
10-14-2004, 07:02 PM
Valdez or Uribe!

OEO Magglio
10-14-2004, 07:26 PM
Wilson Valdez will be the main SS for 2005.
No he won't. It'll be Uribe or Vizquel, imo.

Deadguy
10-14-2004, 07:37 PM
I'm asking because I'm writing some entries on TwinsGeek.com about Cristian Guzman and the market he might face if the Twins don't pick up his $5.25 M option. (Incidentally, you'll find a list of probably FA shortstops there, if you want to kick around some other names).

Very informative site. I enjoyed reading some of the entries.

Lip Man 1
10-14-2004, 08:10 PM
I do not think it will be Valdez either.

Lip

soxwon
10-14-2004, 08:18 PM
Council of the strange batting style.


it will be vizquel

JB98
10-14-2004, 08:37 PM
Counsell hit .240 for the Brewers last year. He can't hit, and he's not as good as Uribe defensively.

RKMeibalane
10-14-2004, 09:54 PM
:hitless


















Just kidding...

Aidan
10-14-2004, 10:01 PM
No he won't. It'll be Uribe or Vizquel, imo.Agreed.
Counsell hit .240 for the Brewers last year. He can't hit, and he's not as good as Uribe defensively.Exactly. Why would anyone want Counsell at SS when Uribe is better offensively and defensively? :?:

kittle42
10-14-2004, 11:57 PM
Council of the strange batting style.


it will be vizquel
Jesus Christ, man....Counsell's name was spelled correctly right above....COUNCIL??? :?:

Huisj
10-15-2004, 12:07 AM
Jesus Christ, man....Counsell's name was spelled correctly right above....COUNCIL??? :?:
I'm guessing he was trying to make some kind of joke, possibly along the lines of The Ministry of Silly Walks from Monty Python.

gosox41
10-15-2004, 09:49 AM
Counsell hit .240 for the Brewers last year. He can't hit, and he's not as good as Uribe defensively.

But is he a grinder?


Bob

Flight #24
10-15-2004, 10:26 AM
But is he a grinder?


Bob


Mmmmmm......grinder........(drool).....

Clarkdog
10-15-2004, 11:04 AM
Totally agreed. Cristian Guzman does not impress me at all. Defensively, Uribe's better. Offensively, Uribe's better. And Uribe's cheaper. Radke, on the other hand, would be perfect for the Sox.
Statisically, over their careers, they are the same player. Uribe has an edge offensively in slugging, which makes sense since Guzman tends to slap the ball, looks to make contact and strikes out less than Uribe. What surprises me is thier low OBP (around .300 - .310). It always seemed like Guzman was on base against the Sox. Low walk totals for both.

I'm intirgued with Guzman because I think there is more there. With Guzman and Uribe up the middle the Sox are improved defensively. Guzman also brings speed and is a legit #2 hitter. The question is what are we doing with Willie Harris? He doesn't seem to fit in anymore if the Sox pursue any kind of shortstop.

Which makes me think that KW's pursuit of a SS is not a top priority. It's Starting/Bullpen Pitching and OF.

mweflen
10-15-2004, 11:41 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041014soxmaggspuzzle,1,3256551.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

see the end blurb of this depressing article about Maggs, Boras, and KW.

Flight #24
10-15-2004, 11:41 AM
Statisically, over their careers, they are the same player. Uribe has an edge offensively in slugging, which makes sense since Guzman tends to slap the ball, looks to make contact and strikes out less than Uribe. What surprises me is thier low OBP (around .300 - .310). It always seemed like Guzman was on base against the Sox. Low walk totals for both.

I'm intirgued with Guzman because I think there is more there. With Guzman and Uribe up the middle the Sox are improved defensively. Guzman also brings speed and is a legit #2 hitter. The question is what are we doing with Willie Harris? He doesn't seem to fit in anymore if the Sox pursue any kind of shortstop.

Which makes me think that KW's pursuit of a SS is not a top priority. It's Starting/Bullpen Pitching and OF.Makes sense, so Renteria is out and we'll have to make do with Beltran, Pavano, Urbina, & Kline.

mweflen
10-15-2004, 11:49 AM
The pluses: hit .291 with an OBP of .353 in '04. Rock solid defensively. Cagey veteran. Switch hitter. Average in worst years better than most of Jose's best.

Minuses: will be 38 to start '05 season. Probably wants 5 million, which is the size of the option Cleveland just declined. Won't approach Jose's HR production (though, at the Cell, we'd probably see 5-10 more per year from him).

The verdict: if this means Vizquel at short and Uribe at 2nd for most of the year, I'm for it. There's a cool spot on the bench yearning for Willie's under-acheiving can to warm it. Don't want to see Manos go, but he's been stinking it up for 2 years now. Vizquel is worth 3-5 mil, Manos more like 2-3.

Chez
10-15-2004, 12:31 PM
Omar at short makes sense only if the Sox are truly committed to winning in 2005 -- meaning at the very least obtaining more pitching, an upgrade at catcher and filling holes left by the departure of Mags and Paulie/Carlos. In other words, it's unlikely we'll see Vizquel in a White Sox uniform next season.

pudge
10-15-2004, 01:09 PM
Omar at short makes sense only if the Sox are truly committed to winning in 2005 -- meaning at the very least obtaining more pitching, an upgrade at catcher and filling holes left by the departure of Mags and Paulie/Carlos. In other words, it's unlikely we'll see Vizquel in a White Sox uniform next season.
Agreed, and I also think we should take a pass if the price gets up around $5 or $6 million. If you can nab him for $3 or under, go for it.

hold2dibber
10-15-2004, 01:42 PM
Omar at short makes sense only if the Sox are truly committed to winning in 2005 -- meaning at the very least obtaining more pitching, an upgrade at catcher and filling holes left by the departure of Mags and Paulie/Carlos. In other words, it's unlikely we'll see Vizquel in a White Sox uniform next season.
During the last few months, the Sox had added $15 million/year in pitchers for the next two years. There's no doubt that they're going to try to win next year. Which means Omar might indeed be here (although I'm not sure that he makes sense).

hitlesswonder
10-15-2004, 01:49 PM
.
I'm intirgued with Guzman because I think there is more there. With Guzman and Uribe up the middle the Sox are improved defensively. Guzman also brings speed and is a legit #2 hitter. The question is what are we doing with Willie Harris? He doesn't seem to fit in anymore if the Sox pursue any kind of shortstop.


I don't think Guzman makes the Sox better defensively. It's undeniable that he has a better fielding percentage than Jose did (and probably better than Uribe would have as an everyday SS for the Sox). But I'm not impressed with his range at all. Maybe someone who has seen him play more than me can comment, but in Twins games I've seen there have been a number of hits that I think he should have gotten to. I know defensive statistics are far from foolproof, but Guzman's zone rating this year was not good, and his range factor wasn't much better, which makes me think he really doesn't have much range. It's funny too, because he is fast. It's sort of like Ray Durham who had great speed but not laterally.

Anyway, if Uribe can repeat his offensive performance from this year, he's better with the glove and bat than Guzman. And he'll cost much less. In fact, it would cost a lot of money to get someone who would be a significant upgrade over Uribe (Renteria). I think the Sox would be better off putting the money into positions where they currently have no decent options (5th starter and catcher come to mind).

mweflen
10-15-2004, 02:29 PM
Now that Maggs basically seems like a lock to depart, I don't think the Paulie/Carlos scenario is realistic. There's no way the Sox would dispense with 2 of those 3 at the same time - it would be a devastating PR move as well as be devestating to the team's chances of success (unless they signed Beltran, which is the pipe dream of pipe dreams.)

So the way I see it, with Maggs leaving, we've got Paulie, Carlos, an uncertain Frank, Aaron in center, Uribe at second, and a whole lotta question marks after that. Adding Vizquel for $3 to $4 million would certainly answer a few of those questions - you'd have a guy capable of hitting early in the order between .270-.290, and rock solid defense up the middle.

Without any further moves, here's what the lineup would probably look like, with what I think are realistic projections for their seasons:

1 - CF - Aaron Rowand .300/20/80
2 - SS - Omar Vizquel .280/10/60
3 - LF - Carlos Lee .300/25/100
4 - 1B - Paul Konerko .280/35/100
5 - DH - Frank Thomas .270/30/90
6 - 2B - Juan Uribe .280/20/80
7 - RF - Carl Everett .270/20/80
8 - C - Jaime Burke .250/10/40
9 - 3B - Joe Crede .260/20/70

Capable of producing and winning? Yes. Plenty of Question Marks? Yes. Verdict? I like the idea of Vizquel patrolling short for us. I think the offense would be smoother and more consistent than with Jose bogging down the lineup 4 months out of the year (sorry Manos, I love you, but you're done!), and defense would be upgraded.

Foulke You
10-15-2004, 02:32 PM
Agreed, and I also think we should take a pass if the price gets up around $5 or $6 million. If you can nab him for $3 or under, go for it.
Couldn't agree more. If you are going to spend $5 or $6 million, you need to get a guy you can guarantee will be healthy. Vizquel had his first injury free year in a long time in 2004. I'd be nervous about investing a ton of money in a guy who might only play 50 games.

I certainly wouldn't mind having that gold glove at SS though. The guy is one of the best in the game defensively at SS even at age 38.

Ol' No. 2
10-15-2004, 02:50 PM
Couldn't agree more. If you are going to spend $5 or $6 million, you need to get a guy you can guarantee will be healthy. Vizquel had his first injury free year in a long time in 2004. I'd be nervous about investing a ton of money in a guy who might only play 50 games.

I certainly wouldn't mind having that gold glove at SS though. The guy is one of the best in the game defensively at SS even at age 38.I don't see getting Vizquel as that big an improvement. He's got knee (?) problems that spiked the deal with Seattle last year. He's getting older and is bound to loose a step or two one of these years. With our luck, the Sox will sign him and...well, you know what happens then. Uribe is still young and inconsistent, but he's not really the problem.

The Sox occasionally had trouble producing offense last year, but they still finished about the middle of the AL in offense. The pitching problems were constant, and they finished 11th in pitching. I'd have no problem going into next season with the current group of position players with just a few changes, if they upgraded the pitching significantly. A stud starter and some bullpen help and let's tee it up.

mweflen
10-15-2004, 02:55 PM
I agree that pitching is the more pressing need. If it meant sticking with Manos for 2 seasons at 3 mil apiece, and getting a credible, consistent No. 3 type pitcher along with a credible, consistent middle releiver, I'd go for that in a heartbeat.

However, if Jose wants $5 mil, and Vizquel will play for $3 mil, then I've got to say Vizquel is the man. He's got at least a year or two of good ball left to play, and Uribe can play SS if he goes down. (Willie should continue riding the bench while Vizquel is healthy, however.)

TwinsGeek
10-15-2004, 03:33 PM
He was all hype and no substance defensively before this year. You were right, he was below average, and he just didn't get to balls that others should have.

For the most part, that changed this year. My eyes thought so, the coaching staff confirmed it, and defensive metrics like Baseball Prospectus Runs Above Average and Bill James Fielding Win Shares both ranked him at the absolute top of the list defensively.

If Ozzerroo didn't see much of him before this year (since he was coaching in the NL) he might have a much higher opinion of his defense than you or I. And he's probably right, or at least he's right when it's a contract year....

I'll throw a couple other things out there about Vizquel
1) his defense has slipped, and slipped badly. If you're expecting anything more than an average defensive shortstop, I think you'll be dissappointed
2) I doubt he'll cost $3M. Larkin signed last year for $1M, and there are a lot of aging veterans that will be in the same boat as Vizquel. Valentin, Larkin and Aurilia all come to mind.
3) I wouldn't be shocked, if Guzman walks, to see the Twins also try to get Vizquel. I'm not sure they would pay any more than $2M, however.

Ol' No. 2
10-15-2004, 03:33 PM
I agree that pitching is the more pressing need. If it meant sticking with Manos for 2 seasons at 3 mil apiece, and getting a credible, consistent No. 3 type pitcher along with a credible, consistent middle releiver, I'd go for that in a heartbeat.

However, if Jose wants $5 mil, and Vizquel will play for $3 mil, then I've got to say Vizquel is the man. He's got at least a year or two of good ball left to play, and Uribe can play SS if he goes down. (Willie should continue riding the bench while Vizquel is healthy, however.)Jose isn't going to get $5M in his dreams. But no matter. I wouldn't keep Valentin under any circumstances. If they upgrade the pitching, I'd have no problems going with Crede-Uribe-Harris-Konerko. Sure, the young guys haven't been too consistent. But that's not unexpected with young players. One thing Ozzie seems very good at is handling and teaching young players. I'm expecting a lot better from these guys next year. Maybe that's why I'm in no hurry to replace them. Instead of tossing $3M at Vizquel and signing a #3 pitcher, wouldn't you rather stick with Uribe and get a #1 or #2 pitcher?

Randar68
10-15-2004, 03:39 PM
1 - CF - Aaron Rowand .300/20/80
2 - SS - Omar Vizquel .280/10/60
3 - LF - Carlos Lee .300/25/100
4 - 1B - Paul Konerko .280/35/100
5 - DH - Frank Thomas .270/30/90
6 - 2B - Juan Uribe .280/20/80
7 - RF - Carl Everett .270/20/80
8 - C - Jaime Burke .250/10/40
9 - 3B - Joe Crede .260/20/70

If Rowand is our lead-off man, we're in trouble. I'd take him at #2 or #6, but leadoff?

You're out of your gourd if you'd hit CLee #2, Konerko #4, and then Frank at #5. Frank's .400 OBP is truly wasted there, and having him hit BEHIND Slownerko might be the worst idea I've seen around here in a while.

Why would you put Uribe behind Thomas? To make the run of RH'ed hitters longer? Put Carl in the meat of the order. He takes more walks and working the count is wasted if there's nobody behind you to benefit...

Basically, I like the contents, but the arrangement you have pretty much blows. We're still a lead-off hitter short, and slow, and station-to-station from 3-9 really...

Aidan
10-15-2004, 03:46 PM
If Rowand is our lead-off man, we're in trouble. I'd take him at #2 or #6, but leadoff?

You're out of your gourd if you'd hit CLee #2, Konerko #4, and then Frank at #5. Frank's .400 OBP is truly wasted there, and having him hit BEHIND Slownerko might be the worst idea I've seen around here in a while.

Why would you put Uribe behind Thomas? To make the run of RH'ed hitters longer? Put Carl in the meat of the order. He takes more walks and working the count is wasted if there's nobody behind you to benefit...

Basically, I like the contents, but the arrangement you have pretty much blows. We're still a lead-off hitter short, and slow, and station-to-station from 3-9 really...What is wrong with Rowand as our leadoff man? I agree with you that he would be better suited as our #2 hitter in the lineup but it wouldn't be the end of the world if he had to lead off. He hit .310 with a .361 OBP this season. He is also a good base stealer with fairly good speed. What's wrong with that? I do agree with the rest of the stuff you said.

LVSoxFan
10-15-2004, 03:47 PM
I don't see getting Vizquel as that big an improvement. He's got knee (?) problems that spiked the deal with Seattle last year. He's getting older and is bound to loose a step or two one of these years. With our luck, the Sox will sign him and...well, you know what happens then. Uribe is still young and inconsistent, but he's not really the problem.

The Sox occasionally had trouble producing offense last year, but they still finished about the middle of the AL in offense. The pitching problems were constant, and they finished 11th in pitching. I'd have no problem going into next season with the current group of position players with just a few changes, if they upgraded the pitching significantly. A stud starter and some bullpen help and let's tee it up.
I was all for going after Vazquez until I read this post--you make a good point.

There wasn't exactly a hell of a lot of games last year where I thought "Yet ANOTHER one blown by bad defense!" Maybe a couple, or three that I recall. However, I can't even KEEP track of all the games lost because of pitching failures--starting with that ultra-painful, guaranteed loss, 5th starter parade of losers. I have to agree with you.

About Vizquel, somebody mentioned that he doesn't have the HRs of Valentin. Phew, man if that's the only downside... Valentin was absolutely feast-or-famine this year--he was our Sosa. If we're gonna add new guys, they'd better be able to play small ball.

ja1022
10-15-2004, 03:47 PM
Vizquel seems poised for a Robbie Alomar type of fall off in production. Alomar hit .336, .415 obp, 30 stolen bases in 2001. Since 2002 at 34 years old he hasn't been the same. Omar, at 37 just finished .291, .353 obp, with 19 stolen bases. I don't think you can continue to expect that kind of production out of the guy, and I don't think this team gains anything picking up a likely HOFer on the downside of his career. Just a hunch.

Rex Hudler
10-15-2004, 04:12 PM
Couldn't agree more. If you are going to spend $5 or $6 million, you need to get a guy you can guarantee will be healthy. Vizquel had his first injury free year in a long time in 2004. I'd be nervous about investing a ton of money in a guy who might only play 50 games.


I certainly wouldn't mind having that gold glove at SS though. The guy is one of the best in the game defensively at SS even at age 38.
It won't take $5 million to get Omar, unless you are talking $5 million for two years.

Omar was hurt in 2003. He played 151 games in 2002, 155 in 2001, 156 in 2000, 144 in 1999, 151 in 1998...... should I go on? I can't see how you figure last year was his first injury free year in a long time? When in fact, he had a sore shoulder early last season which led to an increase in errors early in the year. Once that healed he was back to his gold glove self.

Omar knows he is on the backside of his career and doesn't expect big money. But he is in as good of shape as he is ever been and is confident he has at least 2-3 more good years in him.

Rex Hudler
10-15-2004, 04:15 PM
He was all hype and no substance defensively before this year. You were right, he was below average, and he just didn't get to balls that others should have.

For the most part, that changed this year. My eyes thought so, the coaching staff confirmed it, and defensive metrics like Baseball Prospectus Runs Above Average and Bill James Fielding Win Shares both ranked him at the absolute top of the list defensively.

If Ozzerroo didn't see much of him before this year (since he was coaching in the NL) he might have a much higher opinion of his defense than you or I. And he's probably right, or at least he's right when it's a contract year....

I'll throw a couple other things out there about Vizquel
1) his defense has slipped, and slipped badly. If you're expecting anything more than an average defensive shortstop, I think you'll be dissappointed
2) I doubt he'll cost $3M. Larkin signed last year for $1M, and there are a lot of aging veterans that will be in the same boat as Vizquel. Valentin, Larkin and Aurilia all come to mind.
3) I wouldn't be shocked, if Guzman walks, to see the Twins also try to get Vizquel. I'm not sure they would pay any more than $2M, however.
How do you figure his defense has slipped badly???

OEO Magglio
10-15-2004, 04:21 PM
If Rowand is our lead-off man, we're in trouble. I'd take him at #2 or #6, but leadoff?

You're out of your gourd if you'd hit CLee #2, Konerko #4, and then Frank at #5. Frank's .400 OBP is truly wasted there, and having him hit BEHIND Slownerko might be the worst idea I've seen around here in a while.

Why would you put Uribe behind Thomas? To make the run of RH'ed hitters longer? Put Carl in the meat of the order. He takes more walks and working the count is wasted if there's nobody behind you to benefit...

Basically, I like the contents, but the arrangement you have pretty much blows. We're still a lead-off hitter short, and slow, and station-to-station from 3-9 really...
I actually think Rowand is better for the leadoff spot then he is batting 2nd. I say that because batting 2nd he'd have a whole bunch more bunting opportunities and he's proven that he can't bunt yet, he's probably more capable of leading off that batting 2nd, imo, although I wouldn't mind him there either. I do completely agree with your point about frank, batting him 5th is completely wasting his great obp, and he's still a better hitter then both carlos and pk.

Gosox1917
10-15-2004, 04:23 PM
I like Vizquel at shortstop for us next year. His offensive numbers aren't bad at all and his stellar defense behind our pitchers will hopefully give them more confidence to make the hitters put the ball in play. In addition to Vizquel, the Sox do need at least one more starter and about two reliable guys in the bullpen because no matter how good the defense is, you can't defend against the long ball. (Garland, Cotts, Adkins, Diaz). Otherwise, I'm not lookin for too much more action than that this offseason.

idseer
10-15-2004, 04:34 PM
During the last few months, the Sox had added $15 million/year in pitchers for the next two years. There's no doubt that they're going to try to win next year. Which means Omar might indeed be here (although I'm not sure that he makes sense).
that may have been the thinking before it became apparent magglio would not be back! and also thomas is suspect. might they take a pass this year and go for it in '06 instead?

idseer
10-15-2004, 04:41 PM
If Rowand is our lead-off man, we're in trouble. I'd take him at #2 or #6, but leadoff?
rowand hit .319 whenever he batted leadoff this past season and had an obp of .369. unless there really IS a better option i have no problem with him in that spot. it also gives you some pretty good power and the threat of a first bat 1 to 0 lead. in addition he's a smart baserunner.
i will also make this prediction right now. rowand will be better next year than he was this year. he's the type to put in the work to improve himself, especially now that he KNOWS he's the centerfielder on this team.

hitlesswonder
10-15-2004, 04:47 PM
He was all hype and no substance defensively before this year. You were right, he was below average, and he just didn't get to balls that others should have.

For the most part, that changed this year. My eyes thought so, the coaching staff confirmed it, and defensive metrics like Baseball Prospectus Runs Above Average and Bill James Fielding Win Shares both ranked him at the absolute top of the list defensively.
Well, that's interesting. It's odd that among qualified shortstops he's in the bottom third for zone rating and bottom half for range factor. I did notice that the ESPN scouting report says he frequently displays tremendous range (that's based on performance before this year, and I think is likely hype). As for fielding win shares, he is at the top of list. Despite my misgivings about a stat that puts Kevin Mench at the same level as Carl Crawford, I'm willing to accept that he was good in the field this year (mostly based on the fact that you probably watched a couple more Twins games than I did this year :smile: . The bottom line for me is that I don't think his performance is certain to exceed Uribe's next year, and I esepcially don't think his price/performance ratio would.


I'll throw a couple other things out there about Vizquel
1) his defense has slipped, and slipped badly. If you're expecting anything more than an average defensive shortstop, I think you'll be dissappointed
2) I doubt he'll cost $3M. Larkin signed last year for $1M, and there are a lot of aging veterans that will be in the same boat as Vizquel. Valentin, Larkin and Aurilia all come to mind.
3) I wouldn't be shocked, if Guzman walks, to see the Twins also try to get Vizquel. I'm not sure they would pay any more than $2M, however.I agree Vizquel isn't much better than a somewhat above average defensive SS now. But he has a great reputation, and I can easily imagine a team overpaying based on that plus his offense this season. I especially can imagine that team being the Sox, since Vizquel's game and veteran-ness seem to appeal to Guillen. Again, I think it would be waste of Uribe's cheap years to sit him behind someone who is far from sure to outproduce him (two of Vizquel's last 4 years at the plate have been bad, I can't imagine his body is improving as it ages, and even this year Uribe had arguably as good a year at the plate), but I could easily be wrong. Anyway I bet Vizquel gets 3 million a year minimum. I think people perceived Larkin as being pretty much done because of injuries, I don't think the same is true of Vizquel. Are the Twins down on Bartlett and Punto?

hold2dibber
10-15-2004, 05:18 PM
that may have been the thinking before it became apparent magglio would not be back! and also thomas is suspect. might they take a pass this year and go for it in '06 instead?
I think they've known all along that there was a decent chance that Maggs wouldn't be back. So even if that's pretty much a sealed deal now, I'd be surprised if that changed the thinking. I guess we'll see this off season; but if they've decided to take a pass on '05 and build for '06, I'd like to see them move Paulie, Contreras, Takatsu and possibly others. What's the point of spending a bunch of $ on those guys and being mediocre at best? Better to save the money, have a worse record and a better draft pick, and then be in a position to contend in '06.

idseer
10-15-2004, 05:24 PM
I think they've known all along that there was a decent chance that Maggs wouldn't be back. So even if that's pretty much a sealed deal now, I'd be surprised if that changed the thinking. I guess we'll see this off season; but if they've decided to take a pass on '05 and build for '06, I'd like to see them move Paulie, Contreras, Takatsu and possibly others. What's the point of spending a bunch of $ on those guys and being mediocre at best? Better to save the money, have a worse record and a better draft pick, and then be in a position to contend in '06.
i understand what you're saying but i'll take a pass on dumping paul. he's just reaching his prime and will be quite handy in '06 even if only as a dh.
takatsu shouldn't cost much next year so i hold on to him too. i'm still baffled about contresas. is he really good? or is he really bad? if he's really good he's worth holding onto.

mweflen
10-15-2004, 05:32 PM
i understand what you're saying but i'll take a pass on dumping paul. he's just reaching his prime and will be quite handy in '06 even if only as a dh.
takatsu shouldn't cost much next year so i hold on to him too. i'm still baffled about contresas. is he really good? or is he really bad? if he's really good he's worth holding onto.
I agree on Paulie. He's a relative bargain for his production and age (look at Thome's salary for a comparison).

Takatsu will be making $2.5 million, that was the option in his contract. If he pitches the same way as this year, he's worth it. If the AL has him figured out, then...

hold2dibber
10-15-2004, 06:12 PM
i understand what you're saying but i'll take a pass on dumping paul. he's just reaching his prime and will be quite handy in '06 even if only as a dh.
takatsu shouldn't cost much next year so i hold on to him too. i'm still baffled about contresas. is he really good? or is he really bad? if he's really good he's worth holding onto.Paulie will be a free agent at the end of next year, FWIW. I think they'd be better off trading him while his trade value is at its all time high, if they're not going to try to compete next year, especially since he might walk before '06 anyway.

Ol' No. 2
10-15-2004, 06:24 PM
Paulie will be a free agent at the end of next year, FWIW. I think they'd be better off trading him while his trade value is at its all time high, if they're not going to try to compete next year, especially since he might walk before '06 anyway.Konerko has said publicly that he'd be willing to work his contract in such a way so they could afford him. That's not the sound of someone expecting to walk. And before you bring up Magglio, he never said anything like that. He said he wanted to stay in Chicago, but he never suggested he'd be willing to give a home town discount.

SoxyStu
10-15-2004, 06:53 PM
rowand hit .319 whenever he batted leadoff this past season and had an obp of .369. unless there really IS a better option i have no problem with him in that spot. it also gives you some pretty good power and the threat of a first bat 1 to 0 lead. in addition he's a smart baserunner.
i will also make this prediction right now. rowand will be better next year than he was this year. he's the type to put in the work to improve himself, especially now that he KNOWS he's the centerfielder on this team.It's Friday, my brain is mush and it can't do the math now..so that would make his average what at spots in the line-up? Is it a big difference?

I'm not entirely sold on Aaron batting lead-off and taking pitches for the sake of the team. I think he can be more productive in another spot and being able to smack the first pitch if he so desires.

idseer
10-15-2004, 07:43 PM
[QUOTE=SoxyStu]It's Friday, my brain is mush and it can't do the math now..so that would make his average what at spots in the line-up? Is it a big difference?
QUOTE]

huh?

dcb33
10-15-2004, 07:44 PM
I think if we sign Vizquel at short we run the risk of becoming the Mets/Orioles of the Midwest. The guy's well past his prime and I want no part of anyone making 7 figures that is 38 years old and has had recent troubles with injuries. We've already got two overpriced hasbeens on team (Crazy Carl and R. Alomar), and I really don't think we need a third.

I think the Sox would be much better off in just giving the everyday position to Uribe. Hopefully with an offseason of work and an everyday spot that would help him improve his consistency at the plate. His defense is solid and he is a good value for the price we are paying. I'd rather see the Sox spend that money on the bullpen.

If ANY money is spent improving the infield, I think it should definitely go toward putting the ugly two headed R. Alomar/'Peapod' Harris monster at 2B to rest.

TwinsGeek
10-15-2004, 08:10 PM
I think you're right that there isn't much point to signing Guzman when you have Uribe.

And you may be right about Vizquel. He might be the shiny, newer looking veteran to traditional baseball eyes. But I don't think there's a ton of difference, even healthwise, between him and Larkin.

The Twins aren't "down" on Bartlett and Guzman, but they'll want to minimize their risk at that position. They turned down Guzman's option today but will try and sign him as a free agent, because they don't trust Bartlett's glove or Punto's health yet. If they don't get Guzman, look for a one-year fill-in while they see what Bartlett does in AAA, especially defensively.

Chrisaway
10-15-2004, 08:24 PM
Yeah I dont think we should spend too much on a SS (we need starting/relief help first). I wouldnt mind seeing Vizquel or Uribe at short next year.

batmanZoSo
10-15-2004, 08:39 PM
Vizquel is probably the answer. We might as well take it. And no way is he batting anywhere but leadoff, people.

Vizquel
Rowand
THOMAS (third, like he ALWAYS should be)
Lee
Konerko
Everett
Uribe
Crede
Catcher (we need an upgrade, Davis backup)

sircaffey1
10-15-2004, 10:06 PM
Rowand should NOT be hitting leadoff. If we have Rowand in the leadoff spot then it means that our team is in trouble, not because he can't handle the spot, but because we cut corners and went cheap. If management wants to put a winner on the Southside next season they will address the SS/2B need that can hit leadoff. It is a waste of Rowand's skills to bat leadoff.

I do not want to see the Sox put out players in the 3-6 spots that can't run. I am all for trading Konerko in the right deal. If he can bring us a very solid pitcher or two then do it. You can drop Rowand to 5th or 6th or just keep him in the 2 spot. I have a lot of confidence that Rowand could produce a .300-25-90 season with 15 SBs. I love Konerko and what he can do for this team, but his $8.5 million can be used more wisely elsewhere, if ownership does not increase payroll 10-15 mil.

A consistant 4-5 runs instead of 12 one game, 2 the next, 1 the next, and 8 the next will make a huge difference.

A.T. Money
10-15-2004, 10:06 PM
Vizquel is the type of grinder you need on this team. He just kicks our asses whenever we play Cleveland. We can almost never get him out. He steals bases, and he's almost flawless on D.

He is worth the money.

MRKARNO
10-15-2004, 10:10 PM
I do not want to see the Sox put out players in the 3-6 spots that can't run.

Hitters in these spots aren't supposed to have speed. If you dont want to see players in those spots who cant run, you obviously think having Thomas on the team is a detriment because he can't run. Speed in the power part of the lineup is a plus, but should never be a requirement as many power hitters dont have the gift of speed.

chisox56
10-15-2004, 10:27 PM
Why not go after cristian guzman since the twins declined their option on him.

TwinsGeek
10-16-2004, 01:52 AM
Appropo of nothing, some fans here might find it interesting that one of the top comparable historical players is for Cristian Guzman is Ozzie on baseball-reference.com.

You can find a comment on that here:
http://online.startribune.com/nuke/twins/modules.php?name=News&file=comments&sid=149&tid=3603&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0&SID=vbkf42op8h5nqrna0fqatas195

HomeFish
10-16-2004, 10:39 AM
You're out of your gourd if you'd hit CLee #2, Konerko #4, and then Frank at #5. Frank's .400 OBP is truly wasted there, and having him hit BEHIND Slownerko might be the worst idea I've seen around here in a while.


Caballo did well in the #2 hole in 2003.

PavanoBeltran'05
10-16-2004, 10:47 AM
Anybody in baseball will tell you that you're only as strong as your guys up the middle. Vizquel is a veteran leader that can field his position and get on base. It will be nice to see a guy actually working counts. Vizquel and Uribe up the middle, with Rowand and Ben Davis (who I think will break out this year), you're looking very solid up the middle defensively. I think you'll see pitchers going with a lot more confidence if they know they've got some guys going behind them that can field the ball. Good move. I think 3-4 million will be able to nab Vizquel, considering there's such a deep SS market right now.

Mohoney
10-16-2004, 04:53 PM
Instead of tossing $3M at Vizquel and signing a #3 pitcher, wouldn't you rather stick with Uribe and get a #1 or #2 pitcher?
Exactly. There are some pitchers out there that could really help us, and some that are just continuing the "perpetuation of mediocrity" (sorry if I butchered that quote). I think that signing a Carl Pavano, Russ Ortiz, or Odalis Perez and putting Uribe at SS would help us out more than signing Vizquel and signing a Matt Clement or Derek Lowe.

mikesouthside
10-18-2004, 11:15 AM
:dunno: :mad: Guys, I've been reading the posts for awhile and am new to this so be gentle...It seems like we are playing w/ KW cash that he doesn't even have. Beltran? Come on... We are good in the OF as long as Joe B isn't anywhere near RF. Crede HAS to step up,SS...well Uribe isn't gonna do it for us, would you be willing to take Jose back at reduced price? Here is some real questions....Isn't the Southside becoming a hot spot for Latin players? Can't Oz use his weight to lure some here? If the Marlins start dumping payroll???? As for pitchers...Lowe? Radke? Pedro is too much... I just want the best for the Sox but I will have a hard time getting 100% fired up w/o some major upgrades.

mjharrison72
10-22-2004, 02:20 PM
It's Friday, my brain is mush and it can't do the math now..so that would make his average what at spots in the line-up? Is it a big difference?

I'm not entirely sold on Aaron batting lead-off and taking pitches for the sake of the team. I think he can be more productive in another spot and being able to smack the first pitch if he so desires.
Batting 1st: 52/163=.319
Batting 2nd: 43/132=.326
Batting 3rd: 0/3=.000
Batting 4th: NA
Batting 5th: 4/10=.400
Batting 6th: 15/35=.429
Batting 7th: 19/63=.302
Batting 8th: 18/81=.222
Batting 9th: 0/0=.000

Rowand was 52-for-179 when hitting sixth or later, about .290, and was a combined 95-for-295, or .322, hitting in the top two spots in the order. I could be convinced he could hit well behind a speedy leadoff guy, but I don't think a spot later in the lineup is where we want Rowand.