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View Full Version : If we take a step back and see......


PavanoBeltran'05
10-11-2004, 04:06 PM
I just thought about this season in a totally objective and unbiased view, and I came up with a couple of alarming positive signs.
A team comes in with a new manager, a new rotation that was without a bonafide 3, 4, or 5 man, and youth throughout the lineup, especially at 3rd, second, CF, and C. They have no proven closer and they end up losing their top two hitters.....projections, please???
I would say that team would finish 30 games under. No joke. 30 games under at their very best.

This Sox team, despite all of the things we hate about it, finished in second place, despite the emergence of the upstart Indians, and also finished strong enough to be 4 games over .500. With all of the talent we had the previous years, we were barely finishing over .500.

Now the Sox have picked up some valuable experience for a number of guys, namely Willie Harris, Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand, Ross Gload, Jamie Burke, Felix Diaz, Jon Adkins, Neal Cotts, and Shingo Takatsu. They have never been really given an opportunity to learn the game. Now, I don't know about a lot of careers, but I know in mine, the majority of the techniques and nuances of the profession I picked up were on the job. There's no other way to learn.
This team...I don't know if they're going to be great next year or what, but I know that when all of the ups and downs of the season are cast aside (such as remembering we were 10 games over .500 and in first place during this year), I think it can be looked at as a very beneficial year to the club.
If management can build on this momentum, I think we could be looking at great things from this team in the future.

Read that second paragraph again, and take a totally non biased view of the situation, and see if you agree. It stunned me to think of it that way, as is not the nature of the Sox fan.

Ol' No. 2
10-11-2004, 04:43 PM
One thing that absolutely jumps out at you is the fact that of all the young pitchers brought up from the minors, NOT ONE has been what you would call a success. How can that be?

They weren't really that good, and Sox management/scouting failed. This doesn't wash. These guys were very good in the minor leagues. Several posted stud-like numbers. If they were so bad, how did they do so well at AA and AAA?

There's a big difference between pitching in the minors and pitching in the majors. If we were talking about one or two pitchers, that might be plausible, but other teams bring up young pitchers...how come only OUR guys have difficulty making the jump? ALL of them??? While this is certainly true enough, it doesn't explain the consistent failure to succeed at the major league level.

Ineffective coaching once they get to the major league. This seems to be the only reasonable explanation left. I was elated to see Nardi gone, and willing to wait and see on Cooper, but after almost two years, it's hard not to conclude that he's the problem. Garland's lack of progress is another indictment. I really can't come up with anything concrete, but the results speak for themselves.

PavanoBeltran'05
10-11-2004, 05:06 PM
One thing that absolutely jumps out at you is the fact that of all the young pitchers brought up from the minors, NOT ONE has been what you would call a success. How can that be?

They weren't really that good, and Sox management/scouting failed. This doesn't wash. These guys were very good in the minor leagues. Several posted stud-like numbers. If they were so bad, how did they do so well at AA and AAA?

There's a big difference between pitching in the minors and pitching in the majors. If we were talking about one or two pitchers, that might be plausible, but other teams bring up young pitchers...how come only OUR guys have difficulty making the jump? ALL of them??? While this is certainly true enough, it doesn't explain the consistent failure to succeed at the major league level.

Ineffective coaching once they get to the major league. This seems to be the only reasonable explanation left. I was elated to see Nardi gone, and willing to wait and see on Cooper, but after almost two years, it's hard not to conclude that he's the problem. Garland's lack of progress is another indictment. I really can't come up with anything concrete, but the results speak for themselves.I still buy into the approach that alot of GMs take being that a player at any professional sport pans out into their respective slot in the food chain around their third year of professional sports. That's usually the magic number, unless the guy is a behemoth like Pujols or Prior, etc.
A guy may only be a 5th starter, and he will struggle early in his career, but by that third year or so, you can tell that he's going to be nothing more than that. Jon Garland's a beautiful example.
Adkins, Cotts, Diaz, etc....we'll have to wait and see. Hopefully by that third year or so, we'll se what's going on.
Willie Harris is coming due on that third year. Rowand showed up in his, along with Juan Uribe. Let's see what happens.

SoxxoS
10-11-2004, 05:14 PM
Now the Sox have picked up some valuable experience for a number of guys, namely Willie Harris, Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand, Ross Gload, Jamie Burke, Felix Diaz, Jon Adkins, Neal Cotts, and Shingo Takatsu.
My only concern there is I see: 2 legit major leaguers (Rowand/Takatsu) 2 fringe player (Gload/Harris) 2 AAAA guys (Adkins and Burke) and 2 guys that, knowing the past success of Sox young players, probably won't make it (Cotts/Adkins). Cotts needs another pitch, and Adkins had a high ERA in a mop up role.

There isn't a lot of hope with that list of players, experince or not. If they are bad, they are bad. As far as I am concerned, we should only count on 2 of those guys to perform next year, the two guys that are legit, proven players.

PavanoBeltran'05
10-11-2004, 05:17 PM
My only concern there is I see: 2 legit major leaguers (Rowand/Takatsu) 2 fringe player (Gload/Harris) 2 AAAA guys (Adkins and Burke) and 2 guys that, knowing the past success of Sox young players, probably won't make it (Cotts/Adkins). Cotts needs another pitch, and Adkins had a high ERA in a mop up role.

There isn't a lot of hope with that list of players, experince or not. If they are bad, they are bad. As far as I am concerned, we should only count on 2 of those guys to perform next year, the two guys that are legit, proven players.Well, I don't know if I would totally agree, considering everybody and their mother was saying the same thing about Aaron Rowand last year and the year before. You just never know what experience can bring.

Ol' No. 2
10-11-2004, 05:18 PM
I still buy into the approach that alot of GMs take being that a player at any professional sport pans out into their respective slot in the food chain around their third year of professional sports. That's usually the magic number, unless the guy is a behemoth like Pujols or Prior, etc.
A guy may only be a 5th starter, and he will struggle early in his career, but by that third year or so, you can tell that he's going to be nothing more than that. Jon Garland's a beautiful example.
Adkins, Cotts, Diaz, etc....we'll have to wait and see. Hopefully by that third year or so, we'll se what's going on.
Willie Harris is coming due on that third year. Rowand showed up in his, along with Juan Uribe. Let's see what happens.I don't mean that I expected these guys to be Mark Prior. Guys like that who are major league ready so quickly just don't come around that often. I agree that it takes time for young players to develop, and too many people are WAY too impatient. But the record of called-up pitchers over the last two years is an almost unbelievable string of failure. They weren't even mediocre. Not one of these guys could pitch his way out of a wet paper bag. How could they be so uniformly AWFUL? At what point do you conclude that the coaching isn't up to snuff?

PavanoBeltran'05
10-11-2004, 05:24 PM
I don't mean that I expected these guys to be Mark Prior. Guys like that who are major league ready so quickly just don't come around that often. I agree that it takes time for young players to develop, and too many people are WAY too impatient. But the record of called-up pitchers over the last two years is an almost unbelievable string of failure. They weren't even mediocre. Not one of these guys could pitch his way out of a wet paper bag. How could they be so uniformly AWFUL? At what point do you conclude that the coaching isn't up to snuff?I get what you're saying. Anybody should be able to come out and at least get some people out, especially if they've been playing at AA or AAA for any period of time. It might be the pressure that's put on 'em and the way they respond. I don't know. Buehrle seemed to be in control when he first got up here. That may be because he's cocky and aggressive, whereas these guys aren't. Cotts and Adkins showed definite signs of improvement over the last season, though. when they got their stuff together and brought it, they were solid. I guess it's a process. Terrible....solid on occasion....solid more frequently.... and from there you're either a solid player or you're an insurance salesman in Joliet.
You pose a great question though....you're a pro, you should be able to at least get some guys out.

oldcomiskey
10-11-2004, 05:29 PM
I don't mean that I expected these guys to be Mark Prior. Guys like that who are major league ready so quickly just don't come around that often. I agree that it takes time for young players to develop, and too many people are WAY too impatient. But the record of called-up pitchers over the last two years is an almost unbelievable string of failure. They weren't even mediocre. Not one of these guys could pitch his way out of a wet paper bag. How could they be so uniformly AWFUL? At what point do you conclude that the coaching isn't up to snuff?


At what point do you conclude that maybe non of these guys have the stones to pitch inside--just like it wasnt all nardi's fault it aint Cooper's fault either-----the pitchers--especially the young ones have to pitch inside

Ol' No. 2
10-11-2004, 05:37 PM
At what point do you conclude that maybe non of these guys have the stones to pitch inside--just like it wasnt all nardi's fault it aint Cooper's fault either-----the pitchers--especially the young ones have to pitch insideEven in AAA, it's tough to be as successful as these guys were without pitching inside. They know how to do it. Why did they stop all of a sudden? Did they ALL turn into wimps? I find that unlikely.

oldcomiskey
10-11-2004, 05:44 PM
who says the pitched that way in AAA.... there is so much difference in AAA and the majors though--so even if they did, when they got here they might have lost some courage--I can see that a lot more than blaming two pitching coaches in a row

the problem is them--not the coaches

PavanoBeltran'05
10-11-2004, 05:47 PM
Even in AAA, it's tough to be as successful as these guys were without pitching inside. They know how to do it. Why did they stop all of a sudden? Did they ALL turn into wimps? I find that unlikely.I think especially now that umps are getting nuts with the throwing folks out of the game routine (look at the poor pitcher from Detroit against us this year)
they're doing less and less of that inside pitching.
Unless they've got stellar control, you're going to see more and more of these pitchers doing this sissy routine. Hell, look at Loaiza!! He never went inside this year (which is why he's dog crap now)....if he isn't changing speeds well and working up and down over the plate, he's screwed! Why?? Because he refused to go inside. That is a ridiculous fact of life with these pitchers nowadays.