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View Full Version : Should Sox retire Ventura's #23??


Grobber33
10-11-2004, 03:47 PM
Since Robin played quite a while in a Sox uniform,do you think his #23 should be retired--considering the Sox have retired alot of numbers???

Sorry for the spell goof ups in the poll!!! This keyboard is awful!!

pinwheels3530
10-11-2004, 04:04 PM
Wait a few years!

Jjav829
10-11-2004, 04:08 PM
Since Robin played quite a while in a Sox uniform,do you think his #23 should be retired--considering the Sox have retired alot of numbers???

Sorry for the spell goof ups in the poll!!! This keyboard is awful!!
I fixed them.

Personally, I don't think his number should be retired. I think he should be honored in some way, but I don't know that it should be through retiring his number.

jshanahanjr
10-11-2004, 04:11 PM
I think the Sox should retire it. He was a better teammate than a player, and he was a excellent player.

FireReinsdorf
10-11-2004, 04:22 PM
Baines never left the White Sox via free agency. He was always traded. Baines even returned to the White Sox (twice, I think?) as a free agent.

Robin choose to leave the team. Some sort of honor would be appropriate since most baseball fans will always see Ventura in a Sox uniform. Retiring his number is too much though.

Lip Man 1
10-11-2004, 05:17 PM
Fire:

And just why did Ventura leave after coming back in four months from serious injury?

Lip

StillMissOzzie
10-11-2004, 05:29 PM
Robin choose to leave the team. Yeah, after getting a lowball offer from the Sox that they already KNEW was beat by the Mets. Let's just say that the Sox greased the skids and made it real easy to leave.

SMO
:angry:

Edit: Can't spell!

hold2dibber
10-11-2004, 05:57 PM
Great poll question and a very tough call, in my book. My intial reaction, as much as I loved Ventura as a Sox player and despite the fact that I think he's one of the classiest players I've had the pleasure ot root for, was that there's no way the Sox should retire his number. But looking at the Sox career leader board (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/leaders_bat.shtml), I think you can make a case for him. In the history of the organization, he is:

10th in total bases;
5th in HRs;
7th in RBIs;
4th in BBs;
9th in extra base hits;
9th in times on base;
3rd in sac flies; and
had 5 gold gloves as a member of the team.

And the guys who consistently are ahead of him on the leader board are guys who have the numbers retired or will some day (e.g., Frank, Appling, Collins, Baines, Fisk, etc.). But despite all that, I still voted "no". I think the cut off is right above Robin. He was a damn fine player, but I think you should reserve number retirements for guys who are HOF caliber or very close to it. Ventura doesn't quite rise to that level, in my book. I'd love to see him honored in some way by the organization, but I don't think he's quite worthy of retiring his number. Really close, though.

Wsoxmike59
10-11-2004, 05:58 PM
I don't think Robin is in the class of ballplayers to have their number retired a la Yount, Molitor, Billy Williams, Ernie Banks etc.....

My criteria for retiring a players jersey # would be for him to play either his entire career or the bulk of it for Sox, while putting up HOF type #'s or career franchise marks.

While I feel the Sox jumped the gun and prematurely retired Harold Baines #3 a tad soon.....his final #'s warrant the honor. I don't have his final hit totals at my disposal, but I think he fell just 120+ hits shy of the 3000 hit club......pretty darned impressive.

Ventura arguably is the finest 3B'man in Sox franchise history, but his career #'s pale in comparison to other HOF 3B'men such as Brooks Robinson, Ken Boyer, Mike Schmidt etc....

In closing, I don't think he's retired jersey # worthy. But I also would like to see Joe Crede next year put up similar #'s that Robin did for us. .280's 25-30 HR's 90-100 RBI

Nellie_Fox
10-11-2004, 07:08 PM
I loved Harold. No one was more upset than I when he was traded. Harold's number shouldn't be retired, thus negating the comparison to Robin.

34 Inch Stick
10-12-2004, 07:42 AM
I would be almost as strict as Mike. If the team could make a campaign around getting the player into the HOF then his number should be retired. Every great player does not make the Hall, but if they are in the category that should reasonably be there, they should be kept sacred by their own team.

Robin does not fit that category. Baines is a stretch. In 10 years will there be the same reverence that there is for these players today? It is nice to remember them but it is too high an honor to bestow on a good-very good player.

cornball
10-12-2004, 07:54 AM
Robin was a nice guy and a very popular player......a good player. Was he great? Did he dominate an era? Will he have a chance for the Hall of Fame?

The answer is no. To retire someone number, in my eyes, thye answer to some of these questions has to be yes. I realize that making the HOF as a Sox player is a tall order due to lack of playoffs, exposure....ect. but Robin wouldn't be close based on numbers.

A nice player, a nice guy. I would recommend a Robin Ventura Day and leave it at that.

wdelaney72
10-12-2004, 07:55 AM
This is a great discussion. Robin was a GREAT player for the sox, but not great enough to have his number retired or get into the HOF.

I've used Ventura as a comparison for all of the idiots crying for Santo to get in the HOF. Most of these idiots claim Santo should be in the HOF becuase he was clearly the most dominant 3B of his era. I agree with that statement, then I counter with,

"Robin Ventura was clearly the most dominant 3B of his era, do you think he should be in the HOF?"

Two of my very good friends who are very loyal baseball fans, and unfortunately Cub fans, have been converted based on this argument.

Robin had a fantastic career, but not a HOF career or one that merits his number retired.

#35 should and will be the next number retired by the Sox. Hopefully, we have a few years before we have to worry about that.

ma_deuce
10-12-2004, 11:52 AM
If I had it my way, we would never retire numbers. I think the practice is silly and generally meaningless. However, if we are going to continue retiring numbers, I see no reason why Ventura's should not be retired. His numbers are outstanding, with several milestones that put him well within the league of other retirees. The only difference between Robin and some of the current projected Hall of Famers is that he didn't go out there and make an ass out of himself. He played the game with class and a smile, which made him one of the most memorable players I have ever seen play the game. He deserves it and we should show him the respect he deserves.

:nolanventura

Picture of Nolan Ryan and Robin Ventura hugging each other during a game.

Rush20
10-12-2004, 12:01 PM
Let's just retire Harold Baines number (again)!

Seriously, no. Robin was good hitter and an exceptional fielder. Not enough to retire the number however. The "Mark Grace" of the Southside with more power but with a lower average. Very similar IMO.

Tekijawa
10-12-2004, 12:11 PM
I say we retire his position! From now on any ball hit to the left side is an automatic out and anytime the sox get the bases loaded it's an automatic Grand Slam! That should solve a lot of problems!

I would also like to have him be our PR manager. Any Statement ever made by anyone on this team must be said by Robin. That would save us a lot of Frank Thomas stories and stupid quotes about the Twins!

hold2dibber
10-12-2004, 12:46 PM
This is a great discussion. Robin was a GREAT player for the sox, but not great enough to have his number retired or get into the HOF.

I've used Ventura as a comparison for all of the idiots crying for Santo to get in the HOF. Most of these idiots claim Santo should be in the HOF becuase he was clearly the most dominant 3B of his era. I agree with that statement, then I counter with,

"Robin Ventura was clearly the most dominant 3B of his era, do you think he should be in the HOF?"

Two of my very good friends who are very loyal baseball fans, and unfortunately Cub fans, have been converted based on this argument.
Interesting point. Here's a comparison between Ventura and Santo:

Career Stats:

HR: Ventura 294; Santo 342
RBI: Ventura 1182; Santo 1331
AVG: Ventura .267; Santo .277
OBP: Ventura .363; Santo .362
SLG: Ventura .445; Santo .464
OPS+: Ventura 116; Santo 125
All-Star Games: Ventura 2; Santo 9
Gold Gloves: Ventura 6; Santo 5

162 Game Averages:

Venura: 24 HRs, 95 RBI, .267 avg.
Santo: 25 HRs, 96 RBI, .277 avg.

Overall, they're very similar, but Santo's numbers are a little better, so I think you'd have to give him the nod. But anyone who contends Santo is being jobbed by not being in the HOF would have a lot of 'splainin' to do if they didn't think Ventura had a legit argument, too.

SomebodyToldMe
10-12-2004, 01:04 PM
How about they don't "officially" retire his number, they just never give anyone the number 23 anymore?

Irishsox1
10-12-2004, 01:57 PM
There is only one number that is going to be retired from the '90s and that is #35. Frank the Tank!!

Grobber33
10-12-2004, 02:21 PM
There is only one number that is going to be retired from the '90s and that is #35. Frank the Tank!!

WHAT??? Not Jamie Navarro???? ("Dont Squeeze me!!") LOL

Hangar18
10-12-2004, 03:55 PM
Baines never left the White Sox via free agency. He was always traded. Baines even returned to the White Sox (twice, I think?) as a free agent.

Robin choose to leave the team. Some sort of honor would be appropriate since most baseball fans will always see Ventura in a Sox uniform. Retiring his number is too much though.
Correction. the SOX PUSHED him nicely out the door, but telling him they were CUTTING PAYROLL (remember that term?). Sure, he was starting to slide career wise, but you know what? Look at all the missing tangibles he provided ...... things you cant put a Price on (hear that Jerry?)

I love Robin. but not sure about the number retiring thing

Hangar18
10-12-2004, 03:58 PM
That would be very Cub-Like if the sox just up and "retired" his number.
The Cubs, desperate for anyone/anything to hitch the wagon to, are
talking about "retiring" Nomars number 5 now ......heheehhehehe, stupid team.

FireReinsdorf
10-12-2004, 04:15 PM
Yeah, after getting a lowball offer from the Sox that they already KNEW was beat by the Mets. Let's just say that the Sox greased the skids and made it real easy to leave.

Edit: Can't spell!
Correction. the SOX PUSHED him nicely out the door, but telling him they were CUTTING PAYROLL (remember that term?). Sure, he was starting to slide career wise, but you know what? Look at all the missing tangibles he provided ...... things you cant put a Price on (hear that Jerry?)

I love Robin. but not sure about the number retiring thing
Look, JR and Ventura both got what they wanted, money. If they cared about things like intangibles (winning, getting your number retired after your career is over) both sides would have sacrificed some cash for the benefit of the fans.

I still don't think he was worth the 7-8 million he got from the Mets.

I'm much happier with retiring numbers for guys like Baines and Kittle who played for the team multiple times and didn't leave because of money. You're as bad as Reinsdorf if you base all of your decisions on money.

A player's greed and an owner's greed is the same. It's greed.

Foulke29
10-12-2004, 04:34 PM
Baines never left the White Sox via free agency. He was always traded. Baines even returned to the White Sox (twice, I think?) as a free agent.

Robin choose to leave the team. Some sort of honor would be appropriate since most baseball fans will always see Ventura in a Sox uniform. Retiring his number is too much though.
Ridiculous!:dtroll:

I don't know if you're old enough to remember this, but the Sox indicated before he filed for free agency that they were not going to bring him back. Then at the last minute, they offered him a crummy contract that wasn't fair at all.

hold2dibber
10-12-2004, 04:34 PM
Look, JR and Ventura both got what they wanted, money. If they cared about things like intangibles (winning, getting your number retired after your career is over) both sides would have sacrificed some cash for the benefit of the fans.

I still don't think he was worth the 7-8 million he got from the Mets.

I'm much happier with retiring numbers for guys like Baines and Kittle who played for the team multiple times and didn't leave because of money. You're as bad as Reinsdorf if you base all of your decisions on money.

A player's greed and an owner's greed is the same. It's greed.
I'm not sure what your point is. You seem to say that basing decisions of this nature on money is bad, but then you say you shouldn't retire someone if the left voluntarily for more money. You're basing your decision on money - which you rail against. Why or when they left should not be a factor at all in this discussion; the question is whether the player, based upon his performance when playing for the Sox, deserves to have his number retired. Period. Robin's decision to leave via free agency is entirely irrelevant.

Also, although Robin took the bigger contract from the Mets, I don't think its fair to just assume $ was the only reason. It's like when Thome left the Tribe - they made him an offer, really just to appease the fan base, but they didn't really want him to accept and he knew it. The Phillies wined and dined him, told him they loved him and wanted him and needed him -- and that has an effect. I think much the same happened with Ventura. The Sox made him an offer, but it was pretty widely known (or assumed) that they didn't really want him to accept. The Mets, OTOH, really, really wanted him. Under those circumstances, you can't necessarily say he left just because of the money.

Foulke29
10-12-2004, 04:36 PM
Correction. the SOX PUSHED him nicely out the door, but telling him they were CUTTING PAYROLL (remember that term?). Sure, he was starting to slide career wise, but you know what? Look at all the missing tangibles he provided ...... things you cant put a Price on (hear that Jerry?)

I love Robin. but not sure about the number retiring thing
By the way, some slide. I do believe that he finished in the top five for MVP during his first year in a Mets uniform.

hsnterprize
10-12-2004, 05:56 PM
Grobber...

Great question. Personally, I'd at least wait a few years if I'd even consider retiring his number. However, here's an idea the Sox ought to consider.

For the players whose numbers are already retired, how about putting up a statue of them either in the outfield concourse or ourside the main entrance near 35th and Shields. And, for the popular players who aren't quite up to "number retirement" yet, how about the Sox honor them with a plaque similar to those put up for Yankees greats in Monument Park at Yankee Stadium?

I think that would be a great way to connect today's fans with the greats of the past. How about you?

Huisj
10-13-2004, 12:13 AM
I loved Harold. No one was more upset than I when he was traded. Harold's number shouldn't be retired, thus negating the comparison to Robin.
Ahh, but did you throw a temper tantrum when they traded him? I was only 6 and was camping with my family at Hoffmaster State Park in Muskegon. I was just really really getting into baseball, and had gone to opening day that year where Harold became my childhood hero by driving in the first Sox run I ever saw. The more I learned about Harold, the more I just idolized him as a player and a person. I was a nutso little Sox and Harold crazed kid. Anyways, I had just been playing catch with my dad at the campground, and I had my little script-C Sox hat on, and my dad went to listen to the sports news on the radio, and he told me the sox had traded Harold. I went into a temper tantrum rage and threw my hat on the ground and stomped on it a bunch and said I would never root for the sox again and that I hated them. . . and yet, here I am 15 seasons later.

batmanZoSo
10-13-2004, 02:02 AM
I don't think so. He had his biggest moments with the Mets in 99 and 2000 and he only played with us 7 years. Just doesn't seem right to me. You can say he did just as much as Harold, but I don't agree with that situation either. Plus, the number 23 is just too cool to retire on a guy who wasn't with us all that long. If he wore 38 or something then yeah, go ahead.
:cool:

hold2dibber
10-13-2004, 06:53 AM
I don't think so. He had his biggest moments with the Mets in 99 and 2000 and he only played with us 7 years. Just doesn't seem right to me. You can say he did just as much as Harold, but I don't agree with that situation either. Plus, the number 23 is just too cool to retire on a guy who wasn't with us all that long. If he wore 38 or something then yeah, go ahead.
:cool:
He actually played for the Sox for 10 years, not 7. And while his most famous nationally famous moments came with the Mets (since they actually made some noise in the playoffs while he was there), I don't think that changes the fact that he was a fixture on the South Side for a decade. I don't think he should get his number retired, but that's because I thought he was a good but not great player - not because he wasn't "White Sox-enough" (which seems to be what you're suggesting).

FireReinsdorf
10-13-2004, 08:49 AM
Ridiculous!

I don't know if you're old enough to remember this, but the Sox indicated before he filed for free agency that they were not going to bring him back. Then at the last minute, they offered him a crummy contract that wasn't fair at all.Wow, I state my opinion. You state your opinion (and I appreciate that, it's what boards like this are all about.) But then you attack my loyalty and my age. Who is acting more like a troll?

By the way, some slide. I do believe that he finished in the top five for MVP during his first year in a Mets uniform.He finished sixth.

http://www.baseballreference.com/awards/awards_1999.shtml#NLmvp

I'm not sure what your point is. You seem to say that basing decisions of this nature on money is bad, but then you say you shouldn't retire someone if the left voluntarily for more money. You're basing your decision on money - which you rail against. Why or when they left should not be a factor at all in this discussion; the question is whether the player, based upon his performance when playing for the Sox, deserves to have his number retired. Period. Robin's decision to leave via free agency is entirely irrelevant.

Also, although Robin took the bigger contract from the Mets, I don't think its fair to just assume $ was the only reason. It's like when Thome left the Tribe - they made him an offer, really just to appease the fan base, but they didn't really want him to accept and he knew it. The Phillies wined and dined him, told him they loved him and wanted him and needed him -- and that has an effect. I think much the same happened with Ventura. The Sox made him an offer, but it was pretty widely known (or assumed) that they didn't really want him to accept. The Mets, OTOH, really, really wanted him. Under those circumstances, you can't necessarily say he left just because of the money.I'm sorry you don't understand my point, and I'm even more sorry that you decided to assume what my point was instead of trying to clarify.

It's all about a players priorities. If you want to make money your main priority in life, then go ahead. Making money a priority has it's advantages and disadvantages. When Ventura left the Sox, he became one of the numerous rent a players in the league instead of a franchise player. Personally, I think only franchise players should get their numbers retired.

I'd rather retire a player's number who hasn't put up HOF numbers but has played for the White Sox his entire career over a player who has put up HOF numbers on multiple teams. I feel even stronger about that especially if that player left via free agency.

You can frame it however you want based on statements from the front office, wining and dining, who offered what and when etc. However, I'm still a Sox fan even though I don't like what the front office has said, I haven't been wined or dined, and JR has only offered to take more and more of my money.

Let the Mets retire his number, not the Sox.

jabrch
10-13-2004, 08:49 AM
Nope - Robin was decent - but he shouldn't have his number retired. Anyway, isn't it being saved for when Michael Jordan comes out of retirement - or is he gonna go back to 45?

Hitmen77
10-13-2004, 09:13 AM
Since Robin played quite a while in a Sox uniform,do you think his #23 should be retired--considering the Sox have retired alot of numbers???

Sorry for the spell goof ups in the poll!!! This keyboard is awful!!I don't think Robin's number should be retired. But I was saddened to hear about Robin's retirement. I'll never forget watching on TV his July '91 grand slam against Texas and watching Big Frank hoisting him up triumphantly on his shoulder.

Robin was my favorite Sox player and, in a way, he represented the unfulfilled promise of that early 90s team. When he came up, I thought he and Thomas would both be perrenial all-stars end up in the Hall of Fame. It didn't quite turn out that way - though Robin did have a nice solid career.

I was very disappointed when he left the Sox. That, to me, marked the turning point in the Sox franchise where they went from a prominant team that signed free agents to a "small market" team that gave up good players to free agency. I always hoped that Robin would end up back in a Sox uniform as a player again some day. Now, that will never happen.

At times, it seems like it was just yesterday that the Sox had that great early 90s team, outdrew the Cubs, had a popular (initially) new park, and were one of the top franchises in baseball. Those days are long gone. The dream is dead - buried in a decade of decline, fan alienation by the Sox owners, Sammy/Cubs/Wrigley hyperbole, and a league with very little competitive balance. Robin's retirement announcement brings back those initial fond memories followed by the bitter disappointments of being a Sox fan over the last decade and a half.

Deadguy
10-13-2004, 09:30 AM
I don't think there was ever a year in which Robin was even the best player on his own team (maybe 1992 or 1999, but it'd be close), so I say no.

Foulke29
10-13-2004, 05:16 PM
Wow, I state my opinion. You state your opinion (and I appreciate that, it's what boards like this are all about.) But then you attack my loyalty and my age. Who is acting more like a troll?
Welcome to the boards son! I wasn't attacking your age. I was defending my point of view with some colorful words! Believe me, I was not trying to be offensive. I was trying to be comical and silly. Sorry if you took it as an attack.

Now -- DANCE!

:bandance: :dtroll: :bandance:

hold2dibber
10-13-2004, 05:54 PM
I'm sorry you don't understand my point, and I'm even more sorry that you decided to assume what my point was instead of trying to clarify.
Sheesh - don't get all prickly; I was simply pointing out what appeared to be an inconsistency in your post.

It's all about a players priorities. If you want to make money your main priority in life, then go ahead. Making money a priority has it's advantages and disadvantages. When Ventura left the Sox, he became one of the numerous rent a players in the league instead of a franchise player. Personally, I think only franchise players should get their numbers retired.

I'd rather retire a player's number who hasn't put up HOF numbers but has played for the White Sox his entire career over a player who has put up HOF numbers on multiple teams. I feel even stronger about that especially if that player left via free agency.

You can frame it however you want based on statements from the front office, wining and dining, who offered what and when etc. However, I'm still a Sox fan even though I don't like what the front office has said, I haven't been wined or dined, and JR has only offered to take more and more of my money.

Let the Mets retire his number, not the Sox.
So if, as I suspect, the Sox front office basically made it obvious to Ventura that they didn't really want him back and only made a last minute, low-ball offer simply to appease the fan base, and this just one year after pulling the rub out from under him after he came back from a catastrophic injury only to have the team give up (via the White Flag trade) after he returned, you're saying his departure via free agency render him unworthy, because it shows a lack of loyalty and a preference for $ over all else? Anyone who leaves via free agency doesn't merit number-retiring, regardless of how lousy the organization treated the player, how many indignities the organization may have showered on him? The player must be loyal, no matter what, even if the front office and ownership betrays him at every turn? That seems entirely unreasonable to me. Robin knew management wanted him gone. He took the hint and left. That doesn't render him disloyal or greedy. If you think Baines or Kittle or any other "Sox lifers" wouldn't have done the exact same thing if ownership put them in the same position they put Ventura in, you're kidding yourself.

RedPinStripes
10-13-2004, 06:14 PM
Nothing against Harold, but if #3 was up there when he was still playing, there's room for #23 up there in a few years. Depends on how much Uncle Jerry liked Robin I guess.