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Lip Man 1
10-10-2004, 11:04 PM
In Sports Illustrated this week they have a feature story called '5 Outs Away' looking at last season's playoffs from the Cubs and Red Sox standpoint. I sent a letter to the editor about it and just wanted to paste a copy for your edification. I don't think they'll print it but I gave it a shot.

"After reading your story ‘5 Outs Away,’ I had to laugh. Just another story making the Red Sox and Cub franchises to be something like the victims of a Greek tragedy.

Maybe you don’t know this but there is an American League franchise that has gone longer then the Red Sox without winning a championship...that franchise is the Chicago White Sox.

Unlike the Cubs and Red Sox, the White Sox franchise has only been to a pair of World Series since 1917 and some of the players supposedly threw one of those. There have been White Sox fans that have never even seen a World Series appearance in their lifetimes.

Where’s the stories on their frustrations?

Unlike the Cub and Red Sox fans, White Sox fans don’t blame baseball’s, Bartman, a billy goat or the Bambino for their troubles. White Sox fans put the blame squarely where it belongs...on bad players, worse general managers and collectively the most incompetent ownership in baseball history.

Now do you want to discuss baseball ‘victims’?"

Lip

minastirith67
10-10-2004, 11:38 PM
Lip:

While I think that you are right on in your assessment of Sox history and ownership actions, I sincerely doubt that they will print your response. Reason: stories about the Sox don't make national news and don't sell. While you tap into some of the reasons in your response, it is still the current situation. Printing your response would be a waste of ink and perhaps a loss of money on their part. Or so their reasoning might go. I can only hope to be proven wrong.

Dub25
10-10-2004, 11:45 PM
Lip... Don't be discouraged by others. Keep writing to editors or whoever when you think it is necessary. I wish myself and others would stand up for our team like you are doing now. Remember, Andy got his library in Shawshank Redemption after writing many letters for years.

Foulke You
10-11-2004, 12:05 AM
In Sports Illustrated this week they have a feature story called '5 Outs Away' looking at last season's playoffs from the Cubs and Red Sox standpoint. I sent a letter to the editor about it and just wanted to paste a copy for your edification. I don't think they'll print it but I gave it a shot.

"After reading your story ‘5 Outs Away,’ I had to laugh. Just another story making the Red Sox and Cub franchises to be something like the victims of a Greek tragedy.

Maybe you don’t know this but there is an American League franchise that has gone longer then the Red Sox without winning a championship...that franchise is the Chicago White Sox.

Unlike the Cubs and Red Sox, the White Sox franchise has only been to a pair of World Series since 1917 and some of the players supposedly threw one of those. There have been White Sox fans that have never even seen a World Series appearance in their lifetimes.

Where’s the stories on their frustrations?

Unlike the Cub and Red Sox fans, White Sox fans don’t blame baseball’s, Bartman, a billy goat or the Bambino for their troubles. White Sox fans put the blame squarely where it belongs...on bad players, worse general managers and collectively the most incompetent ownership in baseball history.

Now do you want to discuss baseball ‘victims’?"

Lip
Keep on preaching Lip. Couldn't have said it better. I doubt they have the guts to respond.

fusillirob1983
10-11-2004, 12:18 AM
I only read half of the first page of the article. It was a waste of time to just do that.

MiamiSpartan
10-11-2004, 01:03 AM
I found the article very useful....

...the other day I ran out of toilet paper.....:redneck

SOXROX02
10-11-2004, 01:07 AM
Yeah man, you made great points, but from what I've seen of the media is that they will publish mainly the agreeable things or the controvertial things that bring in money. That might be why the trials and tribulations of the Sox history have gone underappreciated, 'cause no one outside of Chicago (and transplanted Sox fans of course) cares.
Stupid biased media...
For instance, I never realized those things you wrote about, yet I know all about the Cubs' and Bosox' "curses" and "deprivation." Hmm...

SaltyPretzel
10-11-2004, 01:31 AM
"After reading your story ‘5 Outs Away,’ I had to laugh. Just another story making the Red Sox and Cub franchises to be something like the victims of a Greek tragedy.

Maybe you don’t know this but there is an American League franchise that has gone longer then the Red Sox without winning a championship...that franchise is the Chicago White Sox.

Unlike the Cubs and Red Sox, the White Sox franchise has only been to a pair of World Series since 1917 and some of the players supposedly threw one of those. There have been White Sox fans that have never even seen a World Series appearance in their lifetimes.

Where’s the stories on their frustrations?

Unlike the Cub and Red Sox fans, White Sox fans don’t blame baseball’s, Bartman, a billy goat or the Bambino for their troubles. White Sox fans put the blame squarely where it belongs...on bad players, worse general managers and collectively the most incompetent ownership in baseball history.

Now do you want to discuss baseball ‘victims’?"

Lip
Well said! :smile:

Rex Hudler
10-11-2004, 01:40 AM
In Sports Illustrated this week they have a feature story called '5 Outs Away' looking at last season's playoffs from the Cubs and Red Sox standpoint. I sent a letter to the editor about it and just wanted to paste a copy for your edification. I don't think they'll print it but I gave it a shot.

"After reading your story ‘5 Outs Away,’ I had to laugh. Just another story making the Red Sox and Cub franchises to be something like the victims of a Greek tragedy.

Maybe you don’t know this but there is an American League franchise that has gone longer then the Red Sox without winning a championship...that franchise is the Chicago White Sox.

Unlike the Cubs and Red Sox, the White Sox franchise has only been to a pair of World Series since 1917 and some of the players supposedly threw one of those. There have been White Sox fans that have never even seen a World Series appearance in their lifetimes.

Where’s the stories on their frustrations?

Unlike the Cub and Red Sox fans, White Sox fans don’t blame baseball’s, Bartman, a billy goat or the Bambino for their troubles. White Sox fans put the blame squarely where it belongs...on bad players, worse general managers and collectively the most incompetent ownership in baseball history.

Now do you want to discuss baseball ‘victims’?"

Lip
If the Editor wanted to be sarcastic, he might respond with.........

We thought about that, even went to USCF, but were unable to find any White Sox fans. Where are you guys hiding anyway??

or

I don't recall the Sox being anywhere near "5 outs away" lately.

Lip Man 1
10-11-2004, 01:52 AM
My response:

Incompetent, arrogant, vindictive, cheap, egotistical ownership drove them all underground after the past 24 years. Spend 95 million on a payroll for once, and maybe they would get '5 outs away.'

Lip

California Sox
10-11-2004, 02:13 AM
Why the heck is S.I. rehashing last year's Cub collapse? Hasn't everything that could possibly be said about that choke job been said? When they blew up the Bartman ball the whole series should have been swept into the dustbin of history (i.e. ESPN Classic). Man, they're not playing right now, I don't even live in Chicago anymore and I can't escape the Cubs. This may be hell.

SSN721
10-11-2004, 07:55 AM
Nice letter Lip. Although I doubt they will respond at all. I think it is pretty much the reason that the Cubs get all the press in our own town. They sell tickets, have a national following and probably more Cubs fans in the national media just like there are many more in our own local media. Would be nice if they respond or print it but somehow I doubt it.

SOXSINCE'70
10-11-2004, 08:05 AM
Nice post,Lip.Hats off for telling the truth.As A White Sox fan,I place
the blame for the 2004 collapse on many things ( lack of pitching,no depth when Thomas and Oredonez went down for the year,Crede,Valentin,Borchard
swinging from their heels for 3 run HR's with no one on base),but it all comes down to one man:

REINSDORF!!

As mentioned in an earlier post by Palehose George,this guy does what he wants to do,fanbase be damned.Maybe that's why I won't be a weekend season ticket holder in 2005.:(: :(: :(:

jabrch
10-11-2004, 09:47 AM
Who says Sox fans are whiney and bitchey and spend more time worrying about the Cubs and their media coverage than their own team?


KW is dumb. JR is cheap. Never heard this stuff before - this is innovative stuff!!!!!!!

soxnut
10-11-2004, 10:50 AM
Who says Sox fans are whiney and bitchey and spend more time worrying about the Cubs and their media coverage than their own team?


KW is dumb. JR is cheap. Never heard this stuff before - this is innovative stuff!!!!!!!I think this is exactly why the Sox don't get any attention, one way or the other. What is it about this franchise that would be appealing on a national level? How does the country see the White Sox---and their fans? I'd have to say it's a pretty negative picture.

The Sox really don't get close to winning anything. Haven't even been a serious contender even for a wild-card spot--which gets alot of attention near the end of the season.

JR is looked at as an evil owner, who really is in control of MLB behind the scenes.

We have fans who "run on the field and attack people".

Our team colors are silver and black, so I think we're associated with nuckelhead Raiders fans.(even though, there is some appeal for the Raiders, because they at least are competitive). But other than that, black is not a positive color.


All of these things, plus the whining and bitter obsession about the Cubs is something that make this franchise and their fans a very unappealing bunch.

Think about it, if you were an outsider, would you really want to root for this team/franchise?

Unfortunately, we're just a "filler" team.

DumpJerry
10-11-2004, 10:51 AM
You know, the movie "Eight Men Out" did ok at the box office and "Field of Dreams" is a huge hit. Maybe those movies were about a different White Sox organization.

The point I am making is that there is a national following for the Pale Hose and our travails, but the national media would rather be a bunch of lemmings and swallow the the whole "C*bs are America's Team" BS hook line and sinker.

Granted these movies were about one of our team's darkest moments, but the media could create a "curse" about the events surrounding that team.

One footnote about the so-called Black Sox team: people who know baseball say that was one of the greatest teams ever fielded, including the classic Yankee teams of the lore. The Flubs could not compete with them for a fan base and were thinking of moving to another location(:bandance: ) so they could develop a fan base. The scandal broke at just the right time for the Flubs.:angry:

Now that I think about it, we ARE cursed! With the Flubs!:angry: :angry: :angry:

soxnut
10-11-2004, 10:58 AM
You know, the movie "Eight Men Out" did ok at the box office and "Field of Dreams" is a huge hit. Maybe those movies were about a different White Sox organization.

The point I am making is that there is a national following for the Pale Hose and our travails, but the national media would rather be a bunch of lemmings and swallow the the whole "C*bs are America's Team" BS hook line and sinker.

Granted these movies were about one of our team's darkest moments, but the media could create a "curse" about the events surrounding that team.

One footnote about the so-called Black Sox team: people who know baseball say that was one of the greatest teams ever fielded, including the classic Yankee teams of the lore. The Flubs could not compete with them for a fan base and were thinking of moving to another location(:bandance: ) so they could develop a fan base. The scandal broke at just the right time for the Flubs.:angry:

Now that I think about it, we ARE cursed! With the Flubs!:angry: :angry: :angry:


Well, it is now up to the new ad agency to make these points and make them "endearing" as was mentioned in the press release in AdAge. And then market the heck out if it.

Kilroy
10-11-2004, 11:42 AM
My response:

Incompetent, arrogant, vindictive, cheap, egotistical ownership drove them all underground after the past 24 years. Spend 95 million on a payroll for once, and maybe they would get '5 outs away.'

Lip
The Cubs, Phillies, and Mets all spent over 90 mil and went home for the winter the same day as the White Sox did. At the same time, the Twins, Astros, and Cards are all in and didn't spend the 95 mil you claim the Sox need to spend to get '5 outs away'. The Twins and Astros arent even close. You know this, but you just can't live w/out taking every possible shot at Sox management.

I agree w/ your letter to the editors about the Sox. But your personal vendetta against Sox management is as old and tired as threads about green seats.

Dick Allen
10-11-2004, 11:56 AM
The Cubs, Phillies, and Mets all spent over 90 mil and went home for the winter the same day as the White Sox did. At the same time, the Twins, Astros, and Cards are all in and didn't spend the 95 mil you claim the Sox need to spend to get '5 outs away'. The Twins and Astros arent even close. You know this, but you just can't live w/out taking every possible shot at Sox management.

I agree w/ your letter to the editors about the Sox. But your personal vendetta against Sox management is as old and tired as threads about green seats.The Phillies, Mets, Twins and Cardinals have all been to the World Series since Reinsdorf took over this team. Lip should be taking shots at Sox management, as should all of us. What gets old and tired is the lack of a winner here.

soxnut
10-11-2004, 12:10 PM
The Phillies, Mets, Twins and Cardinals have all been to the World Series since Reinsdorf took over this team. Lip should be taking shots at Sox management, as should all of us. What gets old and tired is the lack of a winner here.
Taking shots at management has helped the situation so much over the years.:redneck

DumpJerry
10-11-2004, 12:15 PM
Now where in the WORLD did you read that? I never heard that before.
Never. There were no franchise shifts between 1903-52. That is bull.My point precisely. The Flubs did not have to move. The Sox were busted up and were no longer a force to be reckoned with.

MisterB
10-11-2004, 01:01 PM
My point precisely. The Flubs did not have to move. The Sox were busted up and were no longer a force to be reckoned with.
Um, he was asking where it has ever been stated that the Cubs were thinking of relocating before the Black Sox scandal hit. :?:

CubKilla
10-11-2004, 01:07 PM
You know this, but you just can't live w/out taking every possible shot at Sox management.

I agree w/ your letter to the editors about the Sox. But your personal vendetta against Sox management is as old and tired as threads about green seats.Sox management deserves every volley of pot-shots Sox fans fire at them. Or maybe you're happy with a total of postseason victories that can be counted on one hand since JR and Company destroyed the White Sox Organization and their casual fanbase beginning 20+ years ago.

DumpJerry
10-11-2004, 01:26 PM
Um, he was asking where it has ever been stated that the Cubs were thinking of relocating before the Black Sox scandal hit. :?:I read it in a book a long time ago and the fact stuck with me as one of the city's largest missed opportunities. If there is somewhere on the 'Net that has attendance stats, I would be curious to see what the Sox and Flub attendance was in the years leading up to the expulsion. It is my understanding that the Sox drew much larger crowds than the Flubs.

BTW, just because there were no franshise moves for a long period, does not mean they were not unknown at the time. The Sox started in St. Paul, Minnesota before coming here.

wdelaney72
10-11-2004, 01:55 PM
I actually think they will publish your letter. You made reference to the Cubs and Red Sox, therefore it will have National appeal.

hold2dibber
10-11-2004, 04:38 PM
I read it in a book a long time ago and the fact stuck with me as one of the city's largest missed opportunities. If there is somewhere on the 'Net that has attendance stats, I would be curious to see what the Sox and Flub attendance was in the years leading up to the expulsion. It is my understanding that the Sox drew much larger crowds than the Flubs.

BTW, just because there were no franshise moves for a long period, does not mean they were not unknown at the time. The Sox started in St. Paul, Minnesota before coming here.
Sox and Cubs attendance from 1915 - 1919 (according to baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/)):

1915: Sox 539,000 (2nd); Cubs 217,000 (7th)
1916: Sox 679,000 (1st); Cubs 453,000 (3rd)
1917: Sox 684,000 (1st); Cubs 360,000 (2nd)
1918: Sox 195,000 (5th); Cubs 337,000 (2nd)
1919: Sox 627,000 (2nd); Cubs 424,000 (3rd)

soxnut
10-11-2004, 06:25 PM
Sox management deserves every volley of pot-shots Sox fans fire at them. Or maybe you're happy with a total of postseason victories that can be counted on one hand since JR and Company destroyed the White Sox Organization and their casual fanbase beginning 20+ years ago.

Maybe this ownership group just doesn't like some of the fans base it has, and loves to see people get upset when they do something. I suppose if I was an owner, who didn't grow up loving a team, bought another team and decided I could still make money, and piss off fans I don't like, I might do it too. I was at Soxfest and man it was kind of funny how ridiculously upset people get over some things.:whiner:

rwcescato
10-11-2004, 06:48 PM
In Sports Illustrated this week they have a feature story called '5 Outs Away' looking at last season's playoffs from the Cubs and Red Sox standpoint. I sent a letter to the editor about it and just wanted to paste a copy for your edification. I don't think they'll print it but I gave it a shot.

"After reading your story ‘5 Outs Away,’ I had to laugh. Just another story making the Red Sox and Cub franchises to be something like the victims of a Greek tragedy.

Maybe you don’t know this but there is an American League franchise that has gone longer then the Red Sox without winning a championship...that franchise is the Chicago White Sox.

Unlike the Cubs and Red Sox, the White Sox franchise has only been to a pair of World Series since 1917 and some of the players supposedly threw one of those. There have been White Sox fans that have never even seen a World Series appearance in their lifetimes.

Where’s the stories on their frustrations?

Unlike the Cub and Red Sox fans, White Sox fans don’t blame baseball’s, Bartman, a billy goat or the Bambino for their troubles. White Sox fans put the blame squarely where it belongs...on bad players, worse general managers and collectively the most incompetent ownership in baseball history.

Now do you want to discuss baseball ‘victims’?"

Lip
Good going Lip,

At least the real Sox fans know what you are talking about. I hope those Red Sox can finally win one so we can stop hearing about it. I am sick of them and the flubs.

DumpJerry
10-11-2004, 07:13 PM
Sox and Cubs attendance from 1915 - 1919 (according to baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/)):

1915: Sox 539,000 (2nd); Cubs 217,000 (7th)
1916: Sox 679,000 (1st); Cubs 453,000 (3rd)
1917: Sox 684,000 (1st); Cubs 360,000 (2nd)
1918: Sox 195,000 (5th); Cubs 337,000 (2nd)
1919: Sox 627,000 (2nd); Cubs 424,000 (3rd)I don't know what is more scary....that this information is on the 'Net or that someone had the time to enter for all of us to see. Makes you wonder what is not on the 'Net. Does anyone have any ideas why there was a rebound in 1919? Was Scammy suspended 30 days for corking his bat that year? (:wink: ). Did baseball gain in popularity that year since the Flubs also saw an increase? Given that these are round numbers, how accurate are they?

BTW, Sox games musta been rocking in 1916, 1917 and 1919 they drew a little less than a third of what they drew this year with fewer games.

Now the fun part would be if the Sox can repeat the percentage difference they enjoyed in 1915-1917 over the Flubs again. We'd be looking at a huge gap in the raw numbers!:bandance:

basilesox
10-28-2004, 02:36 AM
That sounds like something that might make it as a "letter to the editor". It speaks the truth and they sometimes print letters that point out flaws in articles they write. Make sure you let us all know if it makes it.

basilesox
10-28-2004, 03:00 AM
Well, it is now up to the new ad agency to make these points and make them "endearing" as was mentioned in the press release in AdAge. And then market the heck out if it.

See thats something I disagree with. I dont think an Ad agency has anything to do with. Yeah I am sure that the Red Sox Marketing Dept milked this "curse" thing to death, but I really think that for the White Sox to get widespread national attention they have to put a competitive "winning team" on the field. With a clubhouse full of characters, or "idiots", like the Red Sox. I personally started rooting for the Red Sox not because of some "curse", or they haven't won in 86 years (hell the WSOX havent won in 87), but because I liked the personalities on the team. I mean look at Curt Schilling.....how gutsy is that guy. How can you not root for a guy like that.....OH and it also didnt hurt that I hate the Yankees (Especially A-rod, the Whiny A-hole)

basilesox
10-28-2004, 03:04 AM
Reading this Thread.......I started thinking about how biased ESPN is to the boston fans. I wonder how they would act next year if the White Sox, I wonder if we would see a touching display of how technology has changed since the Sox last won a series or a review in History since the year "1917".

I seriously doubt it, yet it wouldn't matter to me.......because if the White Sox won the World Series I wouldn't be watching Sportscenter right after.

idseer
10-28-2004, 03:17 AM
Lip:

While I think that you are right on in your assessment of Sox history and ownership actions, I sincerely doubt that they will print your response. Reason: stories about the Sox don't make national news and don't sell. While you tap into some of the reasons in your response, it is still the current situation. Printing your response would be a waste of ink and perhaps a loss of money on their part. Or so their reasoning might go. I can only hope to be proven wrong.
i think you're wrong. this is totally the kind of letter they would put in their letters to the editor column. how would they lose money? on a letter to the editor response? no way.

good stuff lip and good luck with it. i don't read that rag so if it IS included .. let us know.

idseer
10-28-2004, 03:22 AM
Sox and Cubs attendance from 1915 - 1919 (according to baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/)):

1915: Sox 539,000 (2nd); Cubs 217,000 (7th)
1916: Sox 679,000 (1st); Cubs 453,000 (3rd)
1917: Sox 684,000 (1st); Cubs 360,000 (2nd)
1918: Sox 195,000 (5th); Cubs 337,000 (2nd)
1919: Sox 627,000 (2nd); Cubs 424,000 (3rd)
are you sure about those figures? :?:
the reason i ask is ... why would attendance drop DRASTICALLY after their ws win in '17? especially since it was so high the previous 3 years? makes no sense to me.

cburns
10-28-2004, 04:18 AM
WW I had just ended I believe...Im not sure on the dates, but that had to be a big factor I'm sure. I can't imagine the fans not coming out to see the World Champion Chicago White Sox..feels akward typing that.

TommyJohn
10-28-2004, 09:55 AM
are you sure about those figures? :?:
the reason i ask is ... why would attendance drop DRASTICALLY after their ws win in '17? especially since it was so high the previous 3 years? makes no sense to me.
WW I was most definitely a factor, with many going off to fight, plus the Sox
were mired in the second division most of the season. Lastly, the government
invoked a "work or fight" rule that ended the baseball season after Labor Day.
If you look at the World Series that year, you will note that the games were
played in early September.

PaulDrake
10-28-2004, 10:27 AM
The Phillies, Mets, Twins and Cardinals have all been to the World Series since Reinsdorf took over this team. Lip should be taking shots at Sox management, as should all of us. What gets old and tired is the lack of a winner here. Amen to that!! Too many here are co-dependents to Jerry and KW. This in no way resembles a well run, first class, winning organization. The proof is in the pudding. I'm really happy for long time Red Sox fans today. When, if ever will our day be here?

Hangar18
10-28-2004, 10:50 AM
Who says Sox fans are whiney and bitchey and spend more time worrying about the Cubs and their media coverage than their own team?
KW is dumb. JR is cheap. Never heard this stuff before - this is innovative stuff!!!!!!!

Sox fans have every reason to Howl and Groan about Mgmt and Mr. Rein$dorf.
We worry about the Cubs and the over-the-top Media Coverage because it
hurts the SOX in more ways than one can know. Todays Trib Sports section on the World Series, makes sure to mention the Chicago Cubs
in the same breath as the Boston Red Sox in nearly Every story today!!!!!!!!!!!
RIDICULOUS. What will it take..... to get the Chicago Media to get it thru
their thick-cubby-blue heads that the Cubs ARENT PLAYING IN THE WS.
THE RED SOX WON ....... not the cubs. The Cubs actually get a story
in the paper today too.........
Ed Sherman wrote a basically Cubs-Announcer-Recruitment Article that borders on Tampering and Propoganda. Take this quote from the story,
very Mike Kiley-esque: " There is a feeling this is the best baseball job in the country. If somebody wants it, they have to come and get it."

idseer
10-28-2004, 03:26 PM
WW I was most definitely a factor, with many going off to fight, plus the Sox
were mired in the second division most of the season. Lastly, the government
invoked a "work or fight" rule that ended the baseball season after Labor Day.
If you look at the World Series that year, you will note that the games were
played in early September.
it still doesn't make much sense. you notice the cubs numbers stayed virtually the same? also, wouldn't the numbers have dropped across the board? sox went from 1st to 5th?
i understand about the war having an impact, but i'd still want to check on those numbers.

TornLabrum
10-28-2004, 08:43 PM
are you sure about those figures? :?:
the reason i ask is ... why would attendance drop DRASTICALLY after their ws win in '17? especially since it was so high the previous 3 years? makes no sense to me.
In addition, the Federal Government pretty much forced baseball to end it's season on Labor Day. They managed to get a special dispensation for the World Series, which was played in September that year.

idseer
10-28-2004, 08:48 PM
In addition, the Federal Government pretty much forced baseball to end it's season on Labor Day. They managed to get a special dispensation for the World Series, which was played in September that year.
see post #39.