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rwcescato
10-10-2004, 01:02 PM
Did anyone read todays Southtown. An interesting article from Joe Cowly.
In the article he said the Sox are going after Omar Vasquel at Short and
Beltran to play CF. If thats true then maybe it will be a fun off-season after
all. :supernana:

Lip Man 1
10-10-2004, 01:07 PM
I found this line from Kenny Williams to be interesting and frankly confusing.

"Going into next year, I have to take a long look on if we truly have to make some changes."

***? Was he even watching the performance of some of these guys?

Lip

Paulwny
10-10-2004, 01:08 PM
Did anyone read todays Southtown. An interesting article from Joe Cowly.
In the article he said the Sox are going after Omar Vasquel at Short and
Beltran to play CF. If thats true then maybe it will be a fun off-season after
all. :supernana:

Going after is ane thing, acquiring is another.

batmanZoSo
10-10-2004, 01:11 PM
Cowley definitely has a lot of spite against us here. Just a few days ago there was a thread "What will the Sox 2005 infield look like?" And today, Cowley writes an article, "When the dust settles, Sox infield won't change much." Kind of a slap in the face to the hopefuls around here.

Cowley's article (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/index/dspro.html)

Huisj
10-10-2004, 01:12 PM
I found this line from Kenny Williams to be interesting and frankly confusing.

"Going into next year, I have to take a long look on if we truly have to make some changes."

***? Was he even watching the performance of some of these guys?

Lip
Exactly. It seems anyone could take only a short look at this team and know some things have to change. Why does this quote worry me?

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it's got me worried that it might mean they'll take a "long look" at guys like crede, ben davis, willie harris, jon garland, etc. and decide that they can go the cheap and hopeful route rather than actually make the moves that it sounded like they would.

Could it be that KW talked real big at the end of the season about changes and then got a slap on the wrist from JR about it, and now he'll slowly go back on what he said?

Maybe I'm paranoid, but with this team, I think we have the right to be.

Jjav829
10-10-2004, 01:12 PM
Going after is ane thing, acquiring is another.
Agreed. I hope that KW and JR don't think they are going to appease the fans by "going after" Carlos Beltran (or any other big Free Agent) with some weak offer. Going after is nice, but it ultimately means absolutely nothing if you don't get the player. That said, hopefully they do sign some impact Free Agents otherwise this will be a long offseason.

Lip Man 1
10-10-2004, 01:26 PM
I remember the talk about them 'going after' Alex Rodriguez as well. Then Uncle Jerry told A-Rod he wanted to meet with him without his agent Scott Boras present and things kinda went south after that.

Last I heard Boras was still Beltran's agent. I think you get the picture.

And recall the Bartolo Colon negotiations last season with Williams' comments about 'the richest pitching deal in White Sox history.'

Refresh my memory please where did Colon win 18 games this season?

Lip

TDog
10-10-2004, 01:31 PM
Very few free agents will command the really big money this year, and Beltran will be at the top of the short list. I don't think the Sox will get him, not because the team is cheap, but because it would be a bad financial deal.

Committing five years down the road that a player will be worth, say, $18 million is something that the Yankees can afford to do. The team seems willing to deal with long-term contracts gone bad. The White Sox got lucky with one such contract when the Orioles bailed them out. The Cubs thoguht the Sammy Sosa deal was a good idea when it was signed.

Beltran isn't as big a risk as a pitcher, though. Pitching is the most fragile of commodities. But I'm realistic enough to see that he won't sign with the White Sox.

I hope he stays with the Astros.

Wealz
10-10-2004, 01:49 PM
They're not going to give up on Willie Harris' talent. This organization is delusional.

HomeFish
10-10-2004, 01:49 PM
Is Ortiz of Atlanta a FA this year?

nodiggity59
10-10-2004, 01:51 PM
Is Ortiz of Atlanta a FA this year?
Yes. Perfect personality wise, but he is a fly ball pitcher I believe. That wouldn't be too hot in the Cell.

SEALgep
10-10-2004, 02:48 PM
I remember the talk about them 'going after' Alex Rodriguez as well. Then Uncle Jerry told A-Rod he wanted to meet with him without his agent Scott Boras present and things kinda went south after that.

Last I heard Boras was still Beltran's agent. I think you get the picture.

And recall the Bartolo Colon negotiations last season with Williams' comments about 'the richest pitching deal in White Sox history.'

Refresh my memory please where did Colon win 18 games this season?

Lip:whiner:

kittle42
10-10-2004, 02:57 PM
:whiner:
Ahhh, SEAL, the only man who apparently sees nothing wrong with the White Sox organization.

kittle42
10-10-2004, 02:58 PM
Cowley definitely has a lot of spite against us here. Just a few days ago there was a thread "What will the Sox 2005 infield look like?" And today, Cowley writes an article, "When the dust settles, Sox infield won't change much." Kind of a slap in the face to the hopefuls around here.

Cowley's article (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/index/dspro.html)
Is his job to coddle us?

batmanZoSo
10-10-2004, 02:59 PM
I remember the talk about them 'going after' Alex Rodriguez as well. Then Uncle Jerry told A-Rod he wanted to meet with him without his agent Scott Boras present and things kinda went south after that.

Last I heard Boras was still Beltran's agent. I think you get the picture.

And recall the Bartolo Colon negotiations last season with Williams' comments about 'the richest pitching deal in White Sox history.'

Refresh my memory please where did Colon win 18 games this season?

Lip

With a 5.01 ERA, he did it in Anaheim. In Chicago, he'd have LOST 18 games.

hitlesswonder
10-10-2004, 03:00 PM
Very few free agents will command the really big money this year, and Beltran will be at the top of the short list. I don't think the Sox will get him, not because the team is cheap, but because it would be a bad financial deal.

Well, I don't think they'll get Beltran because they won't pay what the Yankees, Cubs, or Astros will. Although it is possible that the Sox could surprise me and break the bank to try and get more fan support. But, I agree with TDog that doesn't seem like a good idea. Locking up so much money in one player, as good as Beltran is, would be bad unless the Sox raise the payroll a lot. Keeping the same relative level would mean downgrading at other positions and I don't think a great player surrounded by mediocre players will win anything. They would be better off spreading money around.

Also, am I the only one that thinks getting Vizquel would be a bad idea? He's been fine player and had a great year this year, but he's 37 years old. They would have to sign him to a multi-year contract and he made 6 million this year. So even a significant paycut will leave a decent amount of money invested in someone who could fall apart fast. He didn't pass a physical for a trade at the start of this season, and looking over the last 4 seasons he seems just as likely to post offensive numbers like Willie Harris as hit .290 like this year. If the Sox won't go after Renteria or Cabrera, I'd rather they just start Uribe at short. His offense this year was on a par with Vizquel's, and his defense is almost as good (worse hands, but better range). And he's younger and much cheaper.

Wealz
10-10-2004, 03:13 PM
Also, am I the only one that thinks getting Vizquel would be a bad idea? He's been fine player and had a great year this year, but he's 37 years old. They would have to sign him to a multi-year contract and he made 6 million this year. So even a significant paycut will leave a decent amount of money invested in someone who could fall apart fast.
Agree that Vizquel's a bad idea. Put Uribe at short and be done with it.

The Sox are in a tough situation. They aren't good enough to win anything and yet they've committed so much money to a pitching staff that is mediocre at best, that it makes rebuilding a difficult decision.

Difficult decision or not, I think rebuilding is the right course.

SEALgep
10-10-2004, 03:17 PM
Ahhh, SEAL, the only man who apparently sees nothing wrong with the White Sox organization.I see faults, but I also recognize the efforts to correct them. Excuse me if I don't throw in the towel for next year and beyond. I would rather spend time talking about what needs to be fixed and how we're going to do it instead of just crying and moaning about how we are never going to be good. Before it sounded depressing, now it just sounds stupid.

FarWestChicago
10-10-2004, 03:26 PM
Ahhh, SEAL, the only man who apparently sees nothing wrong with the White Sox organization.Ugh... Another FOLIP. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Tragg
10-10-2004, 03:29 PM
Seriously, why do we want Omar V--- that's the same old, same old (pun intended)---he's an aging player who's clearly lost a step. I'd rather put URibe out there and pick up someone like Hairiston to play 2nd.

I'd be okay if we traded both Lee AND Konerko; frees up a lot of salary. If we could trade them for some young and/or moderately priced players, we could sign Beltran.
Crede- I wouldn't give up on him - it's hardly inconceivable to blossom in year 3- but no big deal either way.
This team needs defense, and OBP-
Trading Lee and Konerko, we could probably retool our infield and get a reliever or two; or perhaps get a starter, and somewhere in the mix, a leadoff hitter. Either way, we get a lot of salary out of the way which helps us fill our needs that way.
I think we still have enough tradeable commodity, plus a starting staff close to being damn good, such that retooling could do the job, versus rebuilding.

Ol' No. 2
10-10-2004, 04:01 PM
Most of what I've been reading says Beltran will get around $17-18M/yr. Does anyone here think he (or anyone else, for that matter) is worth that much? It's pretty clear that when a team spends that big a portion of its payroll on one player, it's not to their benefit (think Alex Rodrieguez and the Rangers). Forget Beltran. Let someone else tie a big stone around their neck.

The Sox need pitching, pitching and pitching.

In that order.

Soxzilla
10-10-2004, 04:37 PM
Seriously, why do we want Omar V--- that's the same old, same old (pun intended)---he's an aging player who's clearly lost a step. I'd rather put URibe out there and pick up someone like Hairiston to play 2nd.

I'd be okay if we traded both Lee AND Konerko; frees up a lot of salary. If we could trade them for some young and/or moderately priced players, we could sign Beltran.
Crede- I wouldn't give up on him - it's hardly inconceivable to blossom in year 3- but no big deal either way.
This team needs defense, and OBP-
Trading Lee and Konerko, we could probably retool our infield and get a reliever or two; or perhaps get a starter, and somewhere in the mix, a leadoff hitter. Either way, we get a lot of salary out of the way which helps us fill our needs that way.
I think we still have enough tradeable commodity, plus a starting staff close to being damn good, such that retooling could do the job, versus rebuilding.
Sure, let's trade away 2 out of our 3 offensive bright spots from 2004, and build around the steaming pile of crap that makes up the rest of the lineup, oh yay! I can't wait to see this lineup for 2005...

1B - Gload
2B - Harris
SS - Uribe
3B - Crede
C - Burke
LF - Cattalanatto (We would be so lucky...)
CF - Beltran
RF - Borchard or Crazy Carl


Excuse me while I go...

:chunks

RKMeibalane
10-10-2004, 04:46 PM
Ugh... Another FOLIP. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
LMAO!

kittle42
10-10-2004, 04:50 PM
I see faults, but I also recognize the efforts to correct them. Excuse me if I don't throw in the towel for next year and beyond. I would rather spend time talking about what needs to be fixed and how we're going to do it instead of just crying and moaning about how we are never going to be good. Before it sounded depressing, now it just sounds stupid.
My point exactly - how are they going to do it with this man....

:reinsy
"Hi."

MisterB
10-10-2004, 05:27 PM
Most of what I've been reading says Beltran will get around $17-18M/yr. Does anyone here think he (or anyone else, for that matter) is worth that much?
No way Beltran gets that much. Vlad Guerrero is the MVP frontrunner and a superior offensive player and he's only averaging $14M/year.

voodoochile
10-10-2004, 05:50 PM
No way Beltran gets that much. Vlad Guerrero is the MVP frontrunner and a superior offensive player and he's only averaging $14M/year.
Oh... Kay...

Remember Boras and his one nut theory?

All it takes is one nut. Since when did how much a player gets offered have anything to do with what other guys make? Maybe for Reinsy, but I doubt King George is looking at it that way...

soxwon
10-10-2004, 05:53 PM
vizquel & beltran thats old news!!!

rick morissey in the trib wrote that the CUBS were after Beltran. i emailed him and told him, the Sox have been rumored to get him since July, that he should read the WSI boards for info.

i get so pissed off its allways

THE CUBS ARE AFTER

THE YANKS are after

never THE SOX are after Beltran

Iguana775
10-10-2004, 06:00 PM
Did anyone read todays Southtown. An interesting article from Joe Cowly.
In the article he said the Sox are going after Omar Vasquel at Short and
Beltran to play CF. If thats true then maybe it will be a fun off-season after
all. :supernana:
that would make my winter.

SOXSINCE'70
10-10-2004, 06:29 PM
Did anyone read todays Southtown. An interesting article from Joe Cowly.
In the article he said the Sox are going after Omar Vasquel at Short and
Beltran to play CF. If thats true then maybe it will be a fun off-season after
all. :supernana:
Don't put too much stock into it.Uncle Jer won't pay Beltran (his agent is Scott
Boras,'nuff said.A Boras client will NEVER play for the Sox).Omar Vizquel
would be an upgrade at SS,but I think,knowing the frugality of management
(when you've been a fan for 3 and a half decades of this garbage,you'd
be sarcastic as well),we'll see Harris,Crede,Davis,Uribe,et al next year.
Maybe this is a good time not to renew my weekend season tickets.
If Reinsdork doesn't care about the quality of the product on the field (believe me,he doesn't),why should I care about going to his ballpark?

Tragg
10-10-2004, 07:07 PM
Sure, let's trade away 2 out of our 3 offensive bright spots from 2004, and build around the steaming pile of crap that makes up the rest of the lineup, oh yay! I can't wait to see this lineup for 2005...

1B - Gload
2B - Harris
SS - Uribe
3B - Crede
C - Burke
LF - Cattalanatto (We would be so lucky...)
CF - Beltran
RF - Borchard or Crazy Carl


Excuse me while I go...

Whatever but you forget 2 things: a)We haven't won SQUAT with Frank/Lee/Konerko (and we had 2 stud arms last year which is the same number we have right now - Loiza was runner up in Cy YOung); 2)We WILL get players in return for trading Lee and Konerko (I believe I said we could shore up other positions)- your revised lineup credits exactly ONE- Cattalanatto; either add more or add a lot to the pitching staff.
Nellie has a point- Beltran is likely to be too expensive- we'll still have plenty of money to shore the team up by trading those 2 (or at least one). If we can get a Frank C for both Konerko and Lee, then, of course, no sale- I think we can do a bit better, don't you.

Now back to Omar- Why????

DVsoxfan
10-10-2004, 07:21 PM
Catalanotto signed a contract extension with the Blue Jays some time ago.

Soxzilla
10-10-2004, 07:22 PM
Whatever but you forget 2 things: a)We haven't won SQUAT with Frank/Lee/Konerko (and we had 2 stud arms last year which is the same number we have right now - Loiza was runner up in Cy YOung); 2)We WILL get players in return for trading Lee and Konerko (I believe I said we could shore up other positions)- your revised lineup credits exactly ONE- Cattalanatto; either add more or add a lot to the pitching staff.
Nellie has a point- Beltran is likely to be too expensive- we'll still have plenty of money to shore the team up by trading those 2 (or at least one). If we can get a Frank C for both Konerko and Lee, then, of course, no sale- I think we can do a bit better, don't you.

Now back to Omar- Why????Well you said you wanted to shore up pitching...but really, how far is shoring up the pitching going to help us if we can't score more than 2 runs on a consistent basis. You have to remember that for 82 game out of the season we play in Coors field 2.0. And if we consistently put out a rotation of buehrle-pavano-garcia-contreras-garland with a bullpen consisting of marte-shingo-urbina (Best possible senario) we will still get hammered at home.

And it's not like our road record is all that great to begin with.

I say we keep at LEAST frank and carlos and we shop around Konerko, possibly in a deal that would send him to the yankees, in exchange for us getting the newly acquired yankee Carlos Beltran. And let Magglio ride off into the sunset.

We pick up another infielder and dump the likes of Crede (I don't care if he ends up being the next Troy Glaus, I don't want his stubborn, slow, overly touted defensive ass on my team). We dump the trash like Jose, Adkins, Bloweneiss (Or Garland, I seriously think Bloweneiss has a high ceiling, and he isn't as big a douche as Garland...which isn't saying much). I think we bring up Diaz and Grilli for long relief in the bullpen and let Cotts start the season with Charlotte (I want him STARTING, not wasting away in the MLB bullpen). And I think we go after another setup man in the bullpen, or middle reliever. If I were to have the say, this is what our opening day roster would look like...

P-Buehrle, C-Burke, 1B-Gload (Why don't some of you believe the Sox can raise MLB talent, whats to say Gload's ceiling isn't higher than Crosby?), 2B-Harris, SS-Uribe, 3B-Free Agent, LF-Lee, CF-Beltran, RF-Rowand, DH-Thomas. With that lineup, you got contact, power and speed. Eat it (and its young).

soxnut
10-10-2004, 07:27 PM
Ahhh, SEAL, the only man who apparently sees nothing wrong with the White Sox organization.

Well SEALgep and I have the same attitude basically. Hey SEAL!!:D:

SEALgep
10-10-2004, 07:35 PM
Well SEALgep and I have the same attitude basically. Hey SEAL!!:D:Good to hear, what's up Soxnut.

PavanoBeltran'05
10-10-2004, 08:24 PM
Most of what I've been reading says Beltran will get around $17-18M/yr. Does anyone here think he (or anyone else, for that matter) is worth that much? It's pretty clear that when a team spends that big a portion of its payroll on one player, it's not to their benefit (think Alex Rodrieguez and the Rangers). Forget Beltran. Let someone else tie a big stone around their neck.

The Sox need pitching, pitching and pitching.

In that order.I'm telling you right now. Beltran, as much as I would love to have him, will most likely be wearing pinstripes. Pavano will be the big targer, ala Wells, Colon, etc. in prior years. I think the reason the Sox don't pay big money for pitchers that they've already seen (ala Colon) are that they have seen enough and don't want to offer that kind of money to a guy that's shot his wad with the club and wasn't that impressive. He really wasn't lights out much. They do seem to go after big pitchers frequently, though.
The Beltran thing will be resolved with the signing of Andruw Jones. Watch it happen. The cheaper alternative with a decent bat and a gold glove. I'm calling my shot now.

nitetrain8601
10-10-2004, 08:33 PM
I think Andruw Jones got a couple more years left on his big contract. Oh yes, I believe we should keep Crede and I am like SealGEP.

PavanoBeltran'05
10-10-2004, 08:36 PM
The way I see it, we could be looking at Rowand in LF, Jones in CF, and Everett in RF. With Maggs a big question mark, we may be lucky enough to sign him at a discount and keep him....if not, we could be looking at an Everett, Borchard platoon situation.

An infield of Crede, Uribe, Harris, and Konerko would be fine.
For some reason, it takes a lot of players in most sports 3 years of starting to really catch stride and be solid, unless they're superstars out the gate.
With a short leash on Harris and Crede, we can pick up Vizquel to give us a lot of depth and options..Uribe's solid and interchangeable at any of the spots around the horn, and he can fill in for Crede or Harris if they continue to struggle. Willie reminds me of a less powerful Ray Durham. Once he learns to steal bases and solidify that swing, he's going to be a good one. Confidence is his key. Hey, Joe...if you're a dolt again next year, we have Uribe, Vizquel, Harris, and Konerko. Not too bad. No roster in the league is totally devoid of holes along the lineup. This way we minimize the easy outs.

If we can get Pavano and a bullpen guy, then we're stacked.
I love the idea of Garcia, Buehrle, Conteras, Pavano, and JG. Jon's a dolt, but he's a better 5 guy than most teams have.
The bullpen, with the addition of one back end guy, will be something to contend with, especially if Adkins and Cotts use the experience they got to improve. A slight improvement from those guys would be very big for the pen.

The biggest moves KW has to look at and will pull the trigger on are the release of Valentin, Lee (in pursuit of salary room and trade value), Both Alomars, and how to handle the Frank and Maggs situation. They've gotta disrupt this core of players (the so-called leaders) that have disappointed for a while. Add a great pitcher and a bullpen guy, and we're set.

I may be wrong about all of this, but this team doesn't need to be overhauled..it just needs to be added to (and that includes addition by subraction) in strategic spots and to nurture a winning attitude.

nodiggity59
10-10-2004, 08:39 PM
I'm telling you right now. Beltran, as much as I would love to have him, will most likely be wearing pinstripes. Pavano will be the big targer, ala Wells, Colon, etc. in prior years. I think the reason the Sox don't pay big money for pitchers that they've already seen (ala Colon) are that they have seen enough and don't want to offer that kind of money to a guy that's shot his wad with the club and wasn't that impressive. He really wasn't lights out much. They do seem to go after big pitchers frequently, though.
The Beltran thing will be resolved with the signing of Andruw Jones. Watch it happen. The cheaper alternative with a decent bat and a gold glove. I'm calling my shot now.
I just don't see how Andruw Jones helps us. Carlos is better offensively and Jones is MORE expensive. So even if we dumped CLee, picking up Jones would be an INCREASE in payroll with only defense being improved. For an additional 4-5mil?

That said, it has been rumored. It just doesn't make a ton of sense.

PavanoBeltran'05
10-10-2004, 08:42 PM
I just don't see how Andruw Jones helps us. Carlos is better offensively and Jones is MORE expensive. So even if we dumped CLee, picking up Jones would be an INCREASE in payroll with only defense being improved. For an additional 4-5mil?

That said, it has been rumored. It just doesn't make a ton of sense.Well, Andruw Jones has a little less offensively and is a crapload better defensively. Moving Rowand to Left and Jones at center makes our defense airtight on that side of the outfield, and we do that at the sacrifice of some power.

The other main point is his leadership ability, as far as being on a perennial winning team. I think that's important as far as infusing a winning spirit.

Daver
10-10-2004, 08:43 PM
Who gets traded to bring Andruw Jones here?

He is under contract for a ton of money through 2007.

nodiggity59
10-10-2004, 08:59 PM
Who gets traded to bring Andruw Jones here?

He is under contract for a ton of money through 2007.
Right. I don't want to deplete our outfield prospects any more, and BMac has to be untouchable. I guess if they wanted some combo of Diaz/Cotts/Adkins/Bajenaru/Munoz, Garland/Contreras, or Crede/Gload then we'd be in business.

But if we traded CLee for prospects and then used those to acquire Jones, then that would be stupid.

santo=dorf
10-10-2004, 09:16 PM
Who gets traded to bring Andruw Jones here?

He is under contract for a ton of money through 2007.
Magglio Ordonez, oh wait, this isn't June any more.

If we somehow have the money to pay Andruw 12.5 million for the next 3 years, why wouldn't we be able to afford Beltran by dumping Konerko this season? The Sox only have 29.75 million locked up for 2006, and 11.25 million locked up in 2007.

And to all of those who keep saying "The Yanks are going to sign him," what makes you think he just wants to go where the money is? I remember someone posting here saying they had a source that said Beltran wants to play in Chicago. And where does Beltran fit in NY's plans?

1B. Giambi 15.5 million(?) if he's healthy enough otherwise he'll DH. The Yanks have a $3 million option on Travis Lee.
2B. Miguel Cairo (?) Who will the Yanks sign to play there next year?
3B. A-Rod-20 million
SS. Jeter-20 million
C. Posada-13 million
LF. Matsui- 8 million (has a no-trade clause)
CF. Bernie Williams-12 million and Lofton-3.1 million
RF. Sheffield-13 million

You're looking at 107.6 million for a team with no second baseman and a $3.1 million bench player. I haven't even looked at Yanks' pitching staff where they have more holes than swiss cheese.

I think we have a shot of signing Beltran.

:reinsy
"sucker!"

Shingotime!!
10-10-2004, 10:28 PM
What would happen if Jerry R. Died? Who would own the team. Mabey he would leave us a bag of cash in his will to get Beltran, Pavano, Urbina, and Keep Mags. :D:

Flight #24
10-10-2004, 10:29 PM
I remember the talk about them 'going after' Alex Rodriguez as well. Then Uncle Jerry told A-Rod he wanted to meet with him without his agent Scott Boras present and things kinda went south after that.

Last I heard Boras was still Beltran's agent. I think you get the picture.

And recall the Bartolo Colon negotiations last season with Williams' comments about 'the richest pitching deal in White Sox history.'

Refresh my memory please where did Colon win 18 games this season?

Lip
Colon not signing with the Sox doesn't mean that a) they didn't make a good offer and/or b) that they didn't offer him exactly what they said - the richest pitching deal in team history.

Getting outbid for a guy by a lot by a single team doesn't mean that you were somehow cheap. The Sox weren't exactly offering a significantly lower deal than most other teams, one team just went way beyond what the market was at the time. In fact, there were a number of comments from outside Chicago about how Anaheim way overpaid.

Again - getting outbid on a player that you made a strong, market-based offer for does NOT mean that you're somehow "cheaping out", as you imply.

Lip Man 1
10-10-2004, 10:34 PM
Flight:

In the immortal words of former Sox pitching coach Johnny Sain, 'the world doesn't care about the labor pains, they only want to see the baby.'

Don't tell me what you tried to do, show me what you accomplished.

Seal..I hope you are right, if not, we'll see what your comments will be. You can be sure, that I'll remember to ask you about them!

:smile:

Lip

batmanZoSo
10-10-2004, 10:36 PM
Magglio Ordonez, oh wait, this isn't June any more.

If we somehow have the money to pay Andruw 12.5 million for the next 3 years, why wouldn't we be able to afford Beltran by dumping Konerko this season? The Sox only have 29.75 million locked up for 2006, and 11.25 million locked up in 2007.

And to all of those who keep saying "The Yanks are going to sign him," what makes you think he just wants to go where the money is? I remember someone posting here saying they had a source that said Beltran wants to play in Chicago. And where does Beltran fit in NY's plans?

1B. Giambi 15.5 million(?) if he's healthy enough otherwise he'll DH. The Yanks have a $3 million option on Travis Lee.
2B. Miguel Cairo (?) Who will the Yanks sign to play there next year?
3B. A-Rod-20 million
SS. Jeter-20 million
C. Posada-13 million
LF. Matsui- 8 million (has a no-trade clause)
CF. Bernie Williams-12 million and Lofton-3.1 million
RF. Sheffield-13 million

You're looking at 107.6 million for a team with no second baseman and a $3.1 million bench player. I haven't even looked at Yanks' pitching staff where they have more holes than swiss cheese.

I think we have a shot of signing Beltran.

:reinsy
"sucker!"


The whole Andruw Jones rumor was predicated on the Braves sucking at the time and looking to unload a long contract, while taking on one that would expire in 4 months. What do you know, the Braves would go on to win 95+ games and we wouldn't make the playoffs...

I think now that the Braves are good, their management will decide to actually KEEP their best players.

Flight #24
10-10-2004, 11:25 PM
Flight:

In the immortal words of former Sox pitching coach Johnny Sain, 'the world doesn't care about the labor pains, they only want to see the baby.'

Don't tell me what you tried to do, show me what you accomplished.

Seal..I hope you are right, if not, we'll see what your comments will be. You can be sure, that I'll remember to ask you about them!

:smile:

Lip
No one's saying they got the job done, but the incessant complaining about cheapness doesn't jive with facts like increased payrolls and market-based offers to supposed top FAs.

You said (or at least implied) that the Sox weren't serious about Colon in their offer, which is not the case since there wasn't anything better out there - until Anaheim blew the market for Bartolo away.

soxwon
10-10-2004, 11:49 PM
Now back to Omar- Why????[/QUOTE]
to teach valdez to play ss- that kid is gonna be GOOD

konerko wont be traded, wheres rowand?

1b paul
2b hairstonjr
ss vizquel
3b crede
rf-borchard
cf beltran
lf rowand
dh frank
c ben davis
thats a heck of a lineup
with uribe harris everett valdez timo gload on the bench

kittle42
10-10-2004, 11:52 PM
teach valdez to play ss- that kid is gonna be GOOD

:?:

Ol' No. 2
10-11-2004, 10:26 AM
to teach valdez to play ss- that kid is gonna be GOOD

konerko wont be traded, wheres rowand?

1b paul
2b hairstonjr
ss vizquel
3b crede
rf-borchard
cf beltran
lf rowand
dh frank
c ben davis
thats a heck of a lineup
with uribe harris everett valdez timo gload on the benchThere's one thing wrong with this lineup. By blowing your wad on position players, there's no money left to improve the pitching. They're going to have to slug their way to the top. Haven't we tried that before?

hold2dibber
10-11-2004, 01:26 PM
konerko wont be traded, wheres rowand?

1b paul
2b hairstonjr
ss vizquel
3b crede
rf-borchard
cf beltran
lf rowand
dh frank
c ben davis
thats a heck of a lineup
with uribe harris everett valdez timo gload on the bench
I'd assume you'd have Everett and not Borchard in the OF. And that would make for a pretty impressive line-up:

Hairston 2B
Vizquel SS
Beltran CF
Frank DH
Paulie 1B
Everett LF
Rowand RF
Crede 3B
Davis C

But unless the team ups the payroll, that line-up would make it impossible to improve the pitching much, and without a lot more pitching, this team is not going anywhere.

pudge
10-11-2004, 01:38 PM
Now back to Omar- Why????
to teach valdez to play ss- that kid is gonna be GOOD



Ya know, I've been waiting for Omar to decline and disappear, but he just won't. I realize he's up there in age, but if you can get him for 1-2 years at a cheap price, I don't think it's such a bad option. Gives you a hell of a defensive shortstop and a guy who can run the bases and bunt. Uribe can then take 2B, and Willie can be used sparingly, or vice versa. I'm just saying, no need to write off Omar just yet. Although I doubt he has more than 1 or 2 more decent seasons left.

Mickster
10-11-2004, 01:39 PM
I remember the talk about them 'going after' Alex Rodriguez as well. Then Uncle Jerry told A-Rod he wanted to meet with him without his agent Scott Boras present and things kinda went south after that.
If I remember correctly, the Sox offer to AROD was $180M for 10 Years. We just got outbid, by a stupid Ranger's GM. Since AROD, there has yet to be a free agent with Beltran's tools and potential. If they were willing to commit $180M to AROD, who's to say they will not give Beltran a decent offer.... Don't rule anything out.:cool:

Lip Man 1
10-11-2004, 01:59 PM
Mickster:

In theory you are correct but given the fact that the agent Uncle Jerry was trying to cut out with A-Rod was Scott Boras and given the fact that as of right now Beltran's agent is Scott Boras.....well you see the situation.

Lip

Flight #24
10-11-2004, 02:57 PM
Mickster:

In theory you are correct but given the fact that the agent Uncle Jerry was trying to cut out with A-Rod was Scott Boras and given the fact that as of right now Beltran's agent is Scott Boras.....well you see the situation.

Lip
I doubt for a second that JR thought he was going to get ARod to sign on the dotted line during any 1 on 1 meeting. Seems a lot more likely that he thought the chances of getting ARod were a lot greater if he could have a discussion that didn't just focus on $$$ (which is what and iscussion involving Bora$$ was always going to focus on).

As you've posted elsewhere, owners are very shrewd businessmen. Therefore it's seems unlikely that JR wouldn't expect any offer to be run by the agent. Especially after the Grant situation.

Time will tell with all the rumors whether or not JR &/or KW are willing to deal with Bora$. I'd guess that they will if they think they have the $$ to offer Beltran.

pinwheels3530
10-11-2004, 02:57 PM
The Sox do have a shot at Beltran, but the way things are going on the other side of town so do the Cubs. I got a funny feeling with the money they will free up by not bringing back Alou and trying to trade Scammy they will definitely go after Bealtran (milti-year deal) or Magglio (one-year deal). Adam Katz is the agent for Scammy and Maggs he'll get one traded or signed to the Mets and one will stay here.

Bottom line is Lip is right we need to get the deals done for guys like Beltran or Pavano....or whatever other top FA agents are out there. The Tribune will out spend JR in the same Major market meaning the norhtsider will get the better free agents, while we go for cheaper alternatives. That will give them a better chance to win and everyone here will be complaining about our second tier status in this city.

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't sign anybody thats a difference maker it will cost us too much money (excuses)......God I hope I am wrong I don't want to go through another Jerry Springer Sox fest!!!!!

Flight #24
10-11-2004, 03:00 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if we don't sign anybody thats a difference maker it will cost us too much money (excuses)......God I hope I am wrong I don't want to go through another Jerry Springer Sox fest!!!!!
Sox could sign Beltran AND Pavano and you'd have people complaining at SoxFest that we didn't trade Konerko and that we're going to get killed by the fact that our 1B can't steal 20 bases or that we ALSO didn't sign Ugie Urbina or trade Jon Adkins for Eric Gagne. It's just the way things are.

pinwheels3530
10-11-2004, 03:03 PM
Sox could sign Beltran AND Pavano and you'd have people complaining at SoxFest that we didn't trade Konerko and that we're going to get killed by the fact that our 1B can't steal 20 bases or that we ALSO didn't sign Ugie Urbina or trade Jon Adkins for Eric Gagne. It's just the way things are.

Your right.....some of the people at the fest just wine about everythig!!!!!:whiner:

kittle42
10-11-2004, 03:05 PM
Sox could sign Beltran AND Pavano and you'd have people complaining at SoxFest that we didn't trade Konerko and that we're going to get killed by the fact that our 1B can't steal 20 bases or that we ALSO didn't sign Ugie Urbina or trade Jon Adkins for Eric Gagne. It's just the way things are.
:reinsy
"Exactly....which is why I plan on getting absolutely no one."

hitlesswonder
10-11-2004, 03:55 PM
Ya know, I've been waiting for Omar to decline and disappear, but he just won't. I realize he's up there in age, but if you can get him for 1-2 years at a cheap price, I don't think it's such a bad option. Gives you a hell of a defensive shortstop and a guy who can run the bases and bunt. Uribe can then take 2B, and Willie can be used sparingly, or vice versa. I'm just saying, no need to write off Omar just yet. Although I doubt he has more than 1 or 2 more decent seasons left.
How cheap can they get him? He made over 6 million this season, so even a 50% cut in pay would chew up 3 million a year for at least two seasons I would think. And since he had a good year, I'm not sure he'd be willing to take that big of a paycut. His BAs/OPSs for the last 4 years are .255/.657, .275./.759, .244/.657, and .291/.741. It seems to me that it would be a risky signing, and it's not like the Sox are just a SS away from going to the series. I would much rather let a much younger Uribe produce similar numbers (probably) for much cheaper and use the money on other problems. Also, I just wish they'd stop signing old Indians.

hold2dibber
10-11-2004, 04:27 PM
How cheap can they get him? He made over 6 million this season, so even a 50% cut in pay would chew up 3 million a year for at least two seasons I would think. And since he had a good year, I'm not sure he'd be willing to take that big of a paycut. His BAs/OPSs for the last 4 years are .255/.657, .275./.759, .244/.657, and .291/.741. It seems to me that it would be a risky signing, and it's not like the Sox are just a SS away from going to the series. I would much rather let a much younger Uribe produce similar numbers (probably) for much cheaper and use the money on other problems. Also, I just wish they'd stop signing old Indians.
You're right (IMHO). Vizquel is not $3 million better than Uribe, but probably will cost $3 million more/year. Better off saving that $3 million and using it on pitching.

Flight #24
10-11-2004, 04:34 PM
You're right (IMHO). Vizquel is not $3 million better than Uribe, but probably will cost $3 million more/year. Better off saving that $3 million and using it on pitching.
I think the question isn't so much around Uribe v. Vizquel, but Crede/Harris v. Vizquel. Plus, that Omar can theoretically help groom Uribe as our longterm SS.

gosox41
10-12-2004, 10:14 AM
I doubt for a second that JR thought he was going to get ARod to sign on the dotted line during any 1 on 1 meeting. Seems a lot more likely that he thought the chances of getting ARod were a lot greater if he could have a discussion that didn't just focus on $$$ (which is what and iscussion involving Bora$$ was always going to focus on).

As you've posted elsewhere, owners are very shrewd businessmen. Therefore it's seems unlikely that JR wouldn't expect any offer to be run by the agent. Especially after the Grant situation.

Time will tell with all the rumors whether or not JR &/or KW are willing to deal with Bora$. I'd guess that they will if they think they have the $$ to offer Beltran.
And the gall of Reinsdorf to request a meeting with a player he is about to make a huge investment in.

There's no doubt that Boras and JR would need to actually work out the contract details. But what's wrong with meeting with an individual before you sign him to a record contract?

It's like using a head hunter to find you a job. The head hunter may get you an interview and an in in the company, but the company isn't going to hire anyone without meeting them for a one on one interview.

Lip always spins everything as anti-JR. Why didn't Boras at least let his client meet with him. Was JR going to torture him to get him to sign? Was Boras afraid that A-Rod wasn't as money hungry as he and may actually sign at a more attractive place for less money?



Bob

Mickster
10-12-2004, 10:21 AM
You're right (IMHO). Vizquel is not $3 million better than Uribe, but probably will cost $3 million more/year. Better off saving that $3 million and using it on pitching.
Uribe will no longer getting paid $350K. He's due for a substantial increase. Vizquel will not cost $3M more per year over Uribe.

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 10:21 AM
And the gall of Reinsdorf to request a meeting with a player he is about to make a huge investment in.

There's no doubt that Boras and JR would need to actually work out the contract details. But what's wrong with meeting with an individual before you sign him to a record contract?

It's like using a head hunter to find you a job. The head hunter may get you an interview and an in in the company, but the company isn't going to hire anyone without meeting them for a one on one interview.

Lip always spins everything as anti-JR. Why didn't Boras at least let his client meet with him. Was JR going to torture him to get him to sign? Was Boras afraid that A-Rod wasn't as money hungry as he and may actually sign at a more attractive place for less money?



Bob

Dingdingdingding!!!! Which is exactly why JR wanted to do it. Because he was willing to make a very strong offer, but probably not the top $$ one, just something pretty close. But the Sox could offer a ton more non-monetary benefits (which ended up being what ARod REALLY wanted).

voodoochile
10-12-2004, 10:25 AM
And the gall of Reinsdorf to request a meeting with a player he is about to make a huge investment in.

There's no doubt that Boras and JR would need to actually work out the contract details. But what's wrong with meeting with an individual before you sign him to a record contract?

It's like using a head hunter to find you a job. The head hunter may get you an interview and an in in the company, but the company isn't going to hire anyone without meeting them for a one on one interview.

Lip always spins everything as anti-JR. Why didn't Boras at least let his client meet with him. Was JR going to torture him to get him to sign? Was Boras afraid that A-Rod wasn't as money hungry as he and may actually sign at a more attractive place for less money?



BobThe whole thing is hilarious actually. The Sox put an offer on the table (10/$195M, IIRC) that was $5M gross below the minimum to sit at the table. The M's had already been turned down on 10/$180M. Then JR asks to sit down with ARod when he is looking at ARod's duly appointed and legally recognized representative in a business meeting. I don't recall Lip's version of events to be honest with you. I thought JR wanted to meet with ARod AND Boras - so I cannot say for sure which is correct, merely that we remember things differently. Lip has more historical information at his fingertips and does lots of research, so I won't argue the point, merely point out that I don't remember it this way.

You can spin it anyway you want to, Bob. JR didn't really want to sign ARod. He was paying lip service to the concept to appease the media and fanbase. You still buy it. I don't and neither does Lip. Doesn't make either of us right, merely means we interpret the data in different ways:

The defenders say, "That's enough money and JR has a right to meet with ARod before signing that contract."

The "Anti-JR" folks say, "Clearly NOT enough money if you don't even get to the main table and how often do things get done like that in other organizations? Did the Rangers ask to meet with ARod? Did the other teams still in the running? If neither did, then why did the Sox? Is that an indictment of the team's management or a solid way of doing business?"

I still say that if you don't even get to get in the bidding room and are trying to do something no one else is trying to do, then you aren't serious about the signing. Some would even call it pulling a scam...

gosox41
10-12-2004, 10:25 AM
Dingdingdingding!!!! Which is exactly why JR wanted to do it. Because he was willing to make a very strong offer, but probably not the top $$ one, just something pretty close. But the Sox could offer a ton more non-monetary benefits (which ended up being what ARod REALLY wanted).
And all those people that bash JR don't dig one step further. Texas signed him to by far the biggest contract ever, jacked their payroll to close to $100 mill. and what did they ever get for it other then a couple of last place finishes.

I don't fault anyone for wanting to research a potential investment on his terms before giving them a ton of money.

An I think A-Rod would have been happy here, if only on $18 mill per year for 10 years.


Bob

voodoochile
10-12-2004, 10:27 AM
And all those people that bash JR don't dig one step further. Texas signed him to by far the biggest contract ever, jacked their payroll to close to $100 mill. and what did they ever get for it other then a couple of last place finishes.

I don't fault anyone for wanting to research a potential investment on his terms before giving them a ton of money.

An I think A-Rod would have been happy here, if only on $18 mill per year for 10 years.


BobExcept for that hairy little detail... NO ONE ELSE DOES THINGS THAT WAY!

I know... I know... details... details...

Also, do your really think ARod would have been happier here at $18M per than playing in NY for the whole enchillada while making the extra $7M/year?

*****!:rolleyes:

gosox41
10-12-2004, 10:32 AM
The whole thing is hilarious actually. The Sox put an offer on the table (10/$195M, IIRC) that was $5M gross below the minimum to sit at the table. The M's had already been turned down on 10/$180M. Then JR asks to sit down with ARod when he is looking at ARod's duly appointed and legally recognized representative in a business meeting. I don't recall Lip's version of events to be honest with you. I thought JR wanted to meet with ARod AND Boras - so I cannot say for sure which is correct, merely that we remember things differently. Lip has more historical information at his fingertips and does lots of research, so I won't argue the point, merely point out that I don't remember it this way.

You can spin it anyway you want to, Bob. JR didn't really want to sign ARod. He was paying lip service to the concept to appease the media and fanbase. You still buy it. I don't and neither does Lip. Doesn't make either of us right, merely means we interpret the data in different ways:

The defenders say, "That's enough money and JR has a right to meet with ARod before signing that contract."

The "Anti-JR" folks say, "Clearly NOT enough money if you don't even get to the main table and how often do things get done like that in other organizations? Did the Rangers ask to meet with ARod? Did the other teams still in the running? If neither did, then why did the Sox? Is that an indictment of the team's management or a solid way of doing business?"

I still say that if you don't even get to get in the bidding room and are trying to do something no one else is trying to do, then you aren't serious about the signing. Some would even call it pulling a scam...
So you're saying JR had no intention of signing A-Rod. Does this mean that if Boras called JR and said that A-Rod really wants to play for the Sox, JR would pull the offer off the table?

Prove it.

And as for the minimum to negotiate. There was no minimum. Maybe the M's pissed off A-Rod so much he wasn't going to ever sign with them. Believe it or not there is such a thing as selling the location of where you play, endorsement opportunities, etc.


And I don't know if other teams asked to meet with A-Rod. They'd be stupid not to. But then again you mentioned the Rangers, who signed him. They jacked up their payroll and got a last place finish for it. And maybe the Rangers didn't take the time to meet with A-Rod, but then again at the end, the Rangers were negotiating with themselves for A-Rod.

If memory serves correctly, the Braves and Rangers were the last 2 teams to seriously negotiate. After A-Rod signed, the Braves admitted they pulled out of the negotiations after the bidding got close to $20 mill per year.

So essentially it was the one sucker of the owner that kept bidding against himself that got A-Rod. Teams like the Braves were offering very similar money to the Sox or Mariners.


Bob

gosox41
10-12-2004, 10:36 AM
Except for that hairy little detail... NO ONE ELSE DOES THINGS THAT WAY!

I know... I know... details... details...

Also, do your really think ARod would have been happier here at $18M per than playing in NY for the whole enchillada while making the extra $7M/year?

*****!:rolleyes:
How do you know this, voodoo? Were you in on negotiations? Is it possible that Boras wasn't going to let A-Rod meet with JR because he hated JR but would have no problem letting A-Rod meet with other teams?

And, again, I think the Mets were pursuing A-Rod too that off season. Why didn't he just go there to begin with if he wanted NY so bad? He chose Texas originally. Maybe it had something to do with Texas offering more then any other team to get A-Rod. If the Twins had offered A-rod the $25 mill and not Texas, guess what, he'd have been in Minnesota.


Bob

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 10:37 AM
Also, do your really think ARod would have been happier here at $18M per than playing in NY for the whole enchillada while making the extra $7M/year?

*****!:rolleyes:
Nope, but I can almost guarantee that ARod would have been happier the past 4 (or however many) years making $7mil less but playing on a WS contender (and with Frank, Maggs, & ARod, I think that's highly likely). Unless he was predicting that if unhappy, he'd be able to move to a team like NY, I don't think what happened after the fact is all that relevant.

voodoochile
10-12-2004, 10:40 AM
So you're saying JR had no intention of signing A-Rod. Does this mean that if Boras called JR and said that A-Rod really wants to play for the Sox, JR would pull the offer off the table?

Prove it.

And as for the minimum to negotiate. There was no minimum. Maybe the M's pissed off A-Rod so much he wasn't going to ever sign with them. Believe it or not there is such a thing as selling the location of where you play, endorsement opportunities, etc.


And I don't know if other teams asked to meet with A-Rod. They'd be stupid not to. But then again you mentioned the Rangers, who signed him. They jacked up their payroll and got a last place finish for it. And maybe the Rangers didn't take the time to meet with A-Rod, but then again at the end, the Rangers were negotiating with themselves for A-Rod.

If memory serves correctly, the Braves and Rangers were the last 2 teams to seriously negotiate. After A-Rod signed, the Braves admitted they pulled out of the negotiations after the bidding got close to $20 mill per year.

So essentially it was the one sucker of the owner that kept bidding against himself that got A-Rod. Teams like the Braves were offering very similar money to the Sox or Mariners.


BobOkay, technically and in most cases, you are correct, there is no minimum, but Boras was on record that year as saying, "10/$200M is the starting point." So JR walks up and says, "How about 10/$195M?"

No, if Boras sat down with JR and said, ARod will take your offer right now, I think JR would have signed the contract. BUT (and like mine, it's a big one), I think JR was playing the odds. Offer below the minimum the agent says will get it done (and what a stupid amount too - $500K/year on a $20M/year contract (2.5%)) then demand something he knows will break the deal - meeting directly with the player - and walk out in a huff. Then turn to the media and cry "poor me - I really really tried..."

I have no proof, but the whole damned affair stinks to high heaven. You want to buy the company line, more power to you. To me it just looks like more of the same old same old - pay lip service to winning and signing big talent then cry poor.

:selljerry

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 10:40 AM
Except for that hairy little detail... NO ONE ELSE DOES THINGS THAT WAY!

I know... I know... details... details...


Actually, I believe John Henry met with just ARod PRIOR to meeting with ARod & Boras when they started the discussions with Texas last fall.

voodoochile
10-12-2004, 10:42 AM
Actually, I believe John Henry met with just ARod PRIOR to meeting with ARod & Boras when they started the discussions with Texas last fall.
He was already Texas property at that point. If your owner says, let's get together, then you do it - AFTER you are signed by the team.

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 10:44 AM
Okay, technically and in most cases, you are correct, there is no minimum, but Boras was on record that year as saying, "10/$200M is the starting point." So JR walks up and says, "How about 10/$195M?"

No, if Boras sat down with JR and said, ARod will take your offer right now, I think JR would have signed the contract. BUT (and like mine, it's a big one), I think JR was playing the odds. Offer below the minimum the agent says will get it done (and what a stupid amount too - $500K/year on a $20M/year contract (2.5%)) then demand something he knows will break the deal - meeting directly with the player - and walk out in a huff. Then turn to the media and cry "poor me - I really really tried..."

I have no proof, but the whole damned affair stinks to high heaven. You want to buy the company line, more power to you. To me it just looks like more of the same old same old - pay lip service to winning and signing big talent then cry poor.

:selljerry
Or maybe JR was using standard negotiating tactics, which is that people almost always say their initial number is a "starting point", but usually come down a bit from there.

Or maybe JR was factoring in alternate revenues for ARod like having the Sox market him as the big thing in Chicago and so ARod would actually make more money with a lower baseball salary. Given what happened with Sammy, I can easily see that happening. There are a lot of scenarios, not just the one where JR was acting fraudulently.

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 10:45 AM
He was already Texas property at that point. If your owner says, let's get together, then you do it - AFTER you are signed by the team.
He wasn't BoSox property, the discussions were pretty much all about how much $$$ he'd be willing to forgo to be a Red Sock. Not that different from the discussions JR wanted to have with him, IMO.

voodoochile
10-12-2004, 10:45 AM
Nope, but I can almost guarantee that ARod would have been happier the past 4 (or however many) years making $7mil less but playing on a WS contender (and with Frank, Maggs, & ARod, I think that's highly likely). Unless he was predicting that if unhappy, he'd be able to move to a team like NY, I don't think what happened after the fact is all that relevant.Possibly... of course the Sox might not have signed Colon last year because of money issues with ARod on the team and that might have hampered those champagne plans. When both Boomer and Frank go down in 2001 and Ritchie turns into a bust in 2002, it doesn't look good either.

I agree, hindsight is 20/20, and yes, ARod was going where the money was - Boras made sure of it - he even had Texas bidding against themselves for the last $30M of the contract. Still, I bet ARod is flat ecstatic right now. Richer than any player in history and playing for a guaranteed pennant contender every year.

voodoochile
10-12-2004, 10:49 AM
He wasn't BoSox property, the discussions were pretty much all about how much $$$ he'd be willing to forgo to be a Red Sock. Not that different from the discussions JR wanted to have with him, IMO.
Whoops... reading is a skill, Voodoo... :D:

Still, he had a guaranteed contract in his pocket. At that point in time, he has full power over what happens. Before he is signed, it is his agent's job to protect him from that kind of crap. If ARod meets with JR, signs a below market contract and then the Sox continue to suck - Boras might be liable for money. If it comes out that the Rangers were willing to offer more money, but Boras allowed ARod to take less, than other clients would be less likely to work with him in the future.

You guys can't actually be this blind to the basic economic realities of baseball, agents, players and owners can you?

voodoochile
10-12-2004, 10:51 AM
Or maybe JR was using standard negotiating tactics, which is that people almost always say their initial number is a "starting point", but usually come down a bit from there.

Or maybe JR was factoring in alternate revenues for ARod like having the Sox market him as the big thing in Chicago and so ARod would actually make more money with a lower baseball salary. Given what happened with Sammy, I can easily see that happening. There are a lot of scenarios, not just the one where JR was acting fraudulently.
Really?

So when Boras told him to take a hike, why not up the offer and agree to forego the meeting until things were further along?

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 10:59 AM
Whoops... reading is a skill, Voodoo... :D:

Still, he had a guaranteed contract in his pocket. At that point in time, he has full power over what happens. Before he is signed, it is his agent's job to protect him from that kind of crap. If ARod meets with JR, signs a below market contract and then the Sox continue to suck - Boras might be liable for money. If it comes out that the Rangers were willing to offer more money, but Boras allowed ARod to take less, than other clients would be less likely to work with him in the future.

You guys can't actually be this blind to the basic economic realities of baseball, agents, players and owners can you?
Protext him from what? Form himself? I just don't buy that JR (or ARod) thought for a second that there would be a contract signed in that meeting. Anything that was even tentatively agreed to was going to be reviewed by Boras anyway, so the whole idea that JR was trying to pull a fast one on ARod doesn't fly with me. Heck - even Horace Grant reviewed the deal with his agent, and ARod strikes me as being a whole lot more intelligent about these things than Ho ever was.

And your second comment is exactly what I was referring to with Boras' incentives. He wanted ARod to get the maximum $$$ regardless of where it was. But for the player, there are a lot more things that go into being happy in a situation than just the $$$. Those were things that JR wanted to discuss and bring into play, but Boras obviously did not want that to happen.

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 11:00 AM
Really?

So when Boras told him to take a hike, why not up the offer and agree to forego the meeting until things were further along?
Simple. Because JR wasn't willing to go abovethe $20mil, and he knew that without being able to bring the other factors into play, it was highly unlikely that they'd be able to win in a 100% $$-based bidding/negotiation.

Justafan
10-12-2004, 11:02 AM
Ok, lets make on thing perfectly clear here. The White Sox are NOT going to sign Carlos Beltran. When has Reinsdorf EVER opened his vault to the tune of 90M dollars for a player? Sorry, it aint happening. Look for an outfield of Everett, Lee and Rowand. Just being realistic here people.

voodoochile
10-12-2004, 11:03 AM
Protext him from what? Form himself? I just don't buy that JR (or ARod) thought for a second that there would be a contract signed in that meeting. Anything that was even tentatively agreed to was going to be reviewed by Boras anyway, so the whole idea that JR was trying to pull a fast one on ARod doesn't fly with me. Heck - even Horace Grant reviewed the deal with his agent, and ARod strikes me as being a whole lot more intelligent about these things than Ho ever was.

And your second comment is exactly what I was referring to with Boras' incentives. He wanted ARod to get the maximum $$$ regardless of where it was. But for the player, there are a lot more things that go into being happy in a situation than just the $$$. Those were things that JR wanted to discuss and bring into play, but Boras obviously did not want that to happen.
And then JR went to the press and said, "We had a handshake deal. I don't like people who back out after giving their word."

Look, like it or not, agents are there exactly for this kind of stuff - to get their client the best possible contract - that means money, plain and simple.

Do you have any direct information that ARod told him differently? Anything at all that says ARod told Boras he wanted to play for a winner regardless of price - so long as the offers were both good ones?

You guys accuse me of not having any evidence - where's yours?

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 11:07 AM
And then JR went to the press and said, "We had a handshake deal. I don't like people who back out after giving their word."

Look, like it or not, agents are there exactly for this kind of stuff - to get their client the best possible contract - that means money, plain and simple.

Do you have any direct information that ARod told him differently? Anything at all that says ARod told Boras he wanted to play for a winner regardless of price - so long as the offers were both good ones?

You guys accuse me of not having any evidence - where's yours?
I'm not saying ARod said that, or even thought it. My point is that JR wanted to make sure that that was put on the table as a benefit, and he knew that Boras was going to prevent or dismiss that and re-focus everything on the $$$. That's fine, that's a huge part of his job. But unless you were willing to pull a Tom Hicks and write a blank check, it's exactly what I'd expect and in fact want JR to do - do whever he could to get ARod without crippling the franchise financially. That means bringing in ALL the benefits of the Sox offer.

voodoochile
10-12-2004, 11:08 AM
Simple. Because JR wasn't willing to go abovethe $20mil, and he knew that without being able to bring the other factors into play, it was highly unlikely that they'd be able to win in a 100% $$-based bidding/negotiation.
Translation: He knew he would lose so he tried to fix the odds.

Um... that's why guys like Boras do the meetings.

In the end, we aren't talking small potatoes either - the difference between JR and Texas's offer is $55M before incentives - and Texas threw a LOT of incentives at ARod including his own merchandise stand. That's a good chunk of the taxes and agent fees from the deal.

How can anyone be considered to be serious about negotiating if they quit when their first offer gets rebuffed? :dunno:

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 11:23 AM
Translation: He knew he would lose so he tried to fix the odds.

Um... that's why guys like Boras do the meetings.

In the end, we aren't talking small potatoes either - the difference between JR and Texas's offer is $55M before incentives - and Texas threw a LOT of incentives at ARod including his own merchandise stand. That's a good chunk of the taxes and agent fees from the deal.

How can anyone be considered to be serious about negotiating if they quit when their first offer gets rebuffed? :dunno:
Or he knew that his only shot to get him was to incorporate non-salary benefits becaus some idiot would oubid themselves on ARod.

Remember - when JR made his overtures, Hicks hadn't yet entered the picture with his $25mil. At the time, the market was supposedly in the $20mil range, so JR wasn't offering significantly less. After the fact, Hicks came in and outbid himself to up the ante to $25mil.

gosox41
10-12-2004, 11:44 AM
Or maybe JR was using standard negotiating tactics, which is that people almost always say their initial number is a "starting point", but usually come down a bit from there.

Or maybe JR was factoring in alternate revenues for ARod like having the Sox market him as the big thing in Chicago and so ARod would actually make more money with a lower baseball salary. Given what happened with Sammy, I can easily see that happening. There are a lot of scenarios, not just the one where JR was acting fraudulently.At leas there's someone here that thinks logically. :D:

We'll never know what JR had in mind when he wanted to meet with A-Rod because his agent closed off that avenue without giving it a chance. So everyone assumes the worst.





Bob

gosox41
10-12-2004, 11:46 AM
Translation: He knew he would lose so he tried to fix the odds.

Um... that's why guys like Boras do the meetings.

In the end, we aren't talking small potatoes either - the difference between JR and Texas's offer is $55M before incentives - and Texas threw a LOT of incentives at ARod including his own merchandise stand. That's a good chunk of the taxes and agent fees from the deal.

How can anyone be considered to be serious about negotiating if they quit when their first offer gets rebuffed? :dunno:

And how'd that work out for Texas?

All A-Rod had to do was go to the meeting and first say: 'I will not except or sign any sort of contract unless my agent is present, now what do you have to say?'


Bob

voodoochile
10-12-2004, 11:49 AM
And how'd that work out for Texas?

All A-Rod had to do was go to the meeting and first say: 'I will not except or sign any sort of contract unless my agent is present, now what do you have to say?'


Bob
Okay, nice and slow...

It's...

Not...

Done...

That...

Way...

Anywhere...

Else...

But, to again, turn it around on you...

JR could have said, "Okay, what will it take to get me a sit down with ARod?"

Then he could have met those conditions and gotten his meeting - or not but at least he wouldn't have walked away...

Ol' No. 2
10-12-2004, 11:51 AM
And how'd that work out for Texas?EXACTLY. In all the back and forth about who offered what and wheter he should/should not have requested a private meeting, what everyone seems to be ignoring is that signing Rodrieguez would have been at least as big a disaster for the Sox as it was for the Rangers. Although I'll never expect to hear the "I hate Reinsdorf" crowd to admit it, in this case Reinsdorf made the right move.

TDog
10-12-2004, 12:12 PM
EXACTLY. In all the back and forth about who offered what and wheter he should/should not have requested a private meeting, what everyone seems to be ignoring is that signing Rodrieguez would have been at least as big a disaster for the Sox as it was for the Rangers. Although I'll never expect to hear the "I hate Reinsdorf" crowd to admit it, in this case Reinsdorf made the right move.
And unless you're the Yankees, where money doesn't matter and financial blunders are shrugged off and repeated, signing Beltran to the sort of contract his agent is seeking would prove a similar mistake.

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 12:13 PM
EXACTLY. In all the back and forth about who offered what and wheter he should/should not have requested a private meeting, what everyone seems to be ignoring is that signing Rodrieguez would have been at least as big a disaster for the Sox as it was for the Rangers. Although I'll never expect to hear the "I hate Reinsdorf" crowd to admit it, in this case Reinsdorf made the right move.
Personally, I think that Arod on the Sox would have been a much more successful team. A lineup with Frank, Maggs, Lee, Konerko, ARod is a lot stronger than what Texas had been putting out there. Plus I think ARod with the Sox in Chicago would have been huge from a PR perspective and would have made the Sox a national player, and a local darling, with the associated revenues and opportunity to pick up halfway decent FA pitching.

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 12:16 PM
And unless you're the Yankees, where money doesn't matter and financial blunders are shrugged off and repeated, signing Beltran to the sort of contract his agent is seeking would prove a similar mistake.
I'm not so sure about that, only beause the Sox will have a lot of financial flexibility coming up, so if things go south, they can dump Konerko, Lee, and even Frank to cover Carlos salary, keep their investment in pitching, and rebuild around ARow, Beltran, and youngsters like Sweeney, Anderson, etc.

It will mean that if it doesn't pan out short term, the team will likely have a period where they suck, but IMO that and the associated high draft picks are preferable to always being good enough to get a low pick and not good enough to make the playoffs. Jerry Krause's old "Boston Celtics" analogy applies.

Ol' No. 2
10-12-2004, 01:36 PM
Personally, I think that Arod on the Sox would have been a much more successful team. A lineup with Frank, Maggs, Lee, Konerko, ARod is a lot stronger than what Texas had been putting out there. Plus I think ARod with the Sox in Chicago would have been huge from a PR perspective and would have made the Sox a national player, and a local darling, with the associated revenues and opportunity to pick up halfway decent FA pitching.They'd have been more successful with Tejada, Guerrero, Thome and Ivan Rodrieguez, too. There's a small problem of money, though. The Rangers sucked because Rodrieguez ate up so much payroll that they couldn't afford to put a team around him. What makes you think the Sox situation would have been different? Say hello to Alex Rodrieguez and say goodbye to Maggs and Lee. How much better does the team look now?

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 03:19 PM
They'd have been more successful with Tejada, Guerrero, Thome and Ivan Rodrieguez, too. There's a small problem of money, though. The Rangers sucked because Rodrieguez ate up so much payroll that they couldn't afford to put a team around him. What makes you think the Sox situation would have been different? Say hello to Alex Rodrieguez and say goodbye to Maggs and Lee. How much better does the team look now?
I guess I'd at least like to believe that ARod in Chicago generates a lot more $$$ than ARod in Texas. Plus ARod+Frank is a better starting core than anything Texas had. Plus Lee was cheap until 1-2 years ago, so it would have been ARod+Lee+Frank at a minimum, which is a fantastic core to start with offensively.

johnny_mostil
10-12-2004, 09:10 PM
Personally, I think that Arod on the Sox would have been a much more successful team. A lineup with Frank, Maggs, Lee, Konerko, ARod is a lot stronger than what Texas had been putting out there. Plus I think ARod with the Sox in Chicago would have been huge from a PR perspective and would have made the Sox a national player, and a local darling, with the associated revenues and opportunity to pick up halfway decent FA pitching.
What? The Rangers backed up A-Rod with Rafael Palmeiro, Michael Young, Ivan Rodriguez in 2001. They hit 246 homers and scored almost 900 runs. The problem was allowing 968 runs in 2001, 882 runs in 2002, and 969 in 2003. They turned it around this year by finally getting half-decent pitching.

And as for the earlier comment about saving money to spend on pitching, I have three words for you:

"Chan Ho Park"

Buying pitching is risky

johnny_mostil
10-12-2004, 09:23 PM
There's a small problem of money, though. The Rangers sucked because Rodrieguez ate up so much payroll that they couldn't afford to put a team around him.
That was the official story out of Arlington. It wasn't actually true.

The A-Rod trade didn't give them that much financial flexibility because they took on Soriano's contract at $7.4 million and they are mailing about $7 million to New York to ease Senator Palpatine's aching checkbook -- thus swapping A-Rod only "saves" them about $7 million a year.

Chan Ho Park got paid $13.88 million dollars this year to go 4-7 with a 5.46 ERA in 16 starts.

The A-Rod trade actually cost the Rangers the division.

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 10:02 PM
What? The Rangers backed up A-Rod with Rafael Palmeiro, Michael Young, Ivan Rodriguez in 2001. They hit 246 homers and scored almost 900 runs. The problem was allowing 968 runs in 2001, 882 runs in 2002, and 969 in 2003. They turned it around this year by finally getting half-decent pitching.

And as for the earlier comment about saving money to spend on pitching, I have three words for you:

"Chan Ho Park"

Buying pitching is risky
I'm not trying to downplay the importance of pitching, but
Frank>>Palmeiro
Maggs=IRod (purely offensively)
Lee>Young
Konerko>?????

Plus, don't forget the Sox would still have had Foulke, Buehrle as the starting points of a rotation and bullpen.

voodoochile
10-12-2004, 10:33 PM
And unless you're the Yankees, where money doesn't matter and financial blunders are shrugged off and repeated, signing Beltran to the sort of contract his agent is seeking would prove a similar mistake.
No worries there, it won't happen with JR owning the team, which is exactly why the discussion about ARod returned in the first place - to prove it isn't going to happen in anything else other than fantasy land.

JR will pay some lip service, make a token effort and walk away crying poor.

Some will be happy. Some will be sad. Some will swallow it hook line and sinker...

JKryl
10-15-2004, 02:28 PM
It's still nice to dream. Kenny has been there long enough now. He should finally be looking around and saying to himself, "I think I'd better do something, even if it's wrong". Oops, maybe that was last year.

rwcescato
10-20-2004, 12:39 AM
It's still nice to dream. Kenny has been there long enough now. He should finally be looking around and saying to himself, "I think I'd better do something, even if it's wrong". Oops, maybe that was last year.
I thought Foulke was going to do a Foulke tonight. I guess I was wrong

Lip Man 1
10-20-2004, 11:49 AM
Keep in mind Foulke entered the game last night having thrown 65 pitches the two previous games. I can't imagine him coming in tonight unless Boston has nobody else.Lip

jabrch
10-20-2004, 12:26 PM
Some will be happy. Some will be sad. Some will swallow it hook line and sinker...
VC - do you think that the team could, using only operating capital, afford to pay 15-20mm for Beltran and then go out and sign a SP and a few RPs?

voodoochile
10-20-2004, 10:32 PM
VC - do you think that the team could, using only operating capital, afford to pay 15-20mm for Beltran and then go out and sign a SP and a few RPs?I don't know if cash flow is enough to do it or not. I doubt it, but I also don't trust the team that doesn't list the parking revenue as part of their operational income.

I don't trust the owners. I especially don't trust JR. I think he is in it strictly for the money.

So if the books MLB presents to congress are accurate, probably not. If not, then I have no idea. I doubt there is that much extra money off the books, but would like to see the team take on some debt for a few years to see if they can turn the corner on attendance to level the playing field with the flubbies and the big spending teams out East and out West. I believe it would pay off in the long run when the attendance climbed, the team made a run at the pennant a few years in a row and sparked more interest.

The flubbies aren't just hot because they are the flubbies, they are hot because they have made serious runs at the pennant 3 times since 1998.

This town is ripe for the plucking if the Sox decide to go for it.

The question I want to see answered is, "Does running the team at a slight profit or revenue neutral do anything to break the cycle of mediocrity? If not, should they be willing to take a few more chances?"

Lip Man 1
10-21-2004, 01:05 PM
Voodoo:

Well said...

Lip

eshunn2001
10-25-2004, 05:19 PM
Don't put too much stock into it.Uncle Jer won't pay Beltran (his agent is Scott
Boras,'nuff said.A Boras client will NEVER play for the Sox).Omar Vizquel
would be an upgrade at SS,but I think,knowing the frugality of management
(when you've been a fan for 3 and a half decades of this garbage,you'd
be sarcastic as well),we'll see Harris,Crede,Davis,Uribe,et al next year.
Maybe this is a good time not to renew my weekend season tickets.
If Reinsdork doesn't care about the quality of the product on the field (believe me,he doesn't),why should I care about going to his ballpark?
Dude, Not to just take a shot at you. But most of us WHITE SOX fans sound like WEST COAST fans. If the team is not good why go see em? Here is a reason You are a White Sox fan not a Riensdorf fan. we go there to support the guys we have. (who ever they are). That is why players like to play for the Yanks, Redsox and the Evil Empire. These teams sell out, or come close to it, every game. even when the are not so good. All we have are excuses. Alot of players grow up fans of those teams so they take discounts to play for them. I live in Southern california and I make it to the Cell at least 5 times a year. And then I see the Sox when ever the play Anahiem, LA or Oakland (if it is a weekend series, it's a 7 hour drive) and i rarely see the sox win out here. but i still go. I am sick of our excuses. ( i say OUR because i consider us Sox fans family. the few the proud). Just thought I would vent. Again not a shot at you personally.

Lip Man 1
10-25-2004, 06:19 PM
Eshunn:

Have you ever seen TV video from Yankee Stadium in the late 80's / early 90's? I have plenty when the Sox played them and I can tell you that park was EMPTY.

In fact Steinbrenner started making noises about moving to a new stadium in New Jersey it was getting so bad. The Yankees were not drawing well at all, especially for a market that size until 94 or so, then when they started winning titles again it exploded.

Yankee fans are no different from Sox fans. When the team sucks they don't show up. I for one see absolutely nothing wrong with that attitude. Steinbreener knows if he doesn't produce a very good team every year, with that park and the surrounding area being so bad he won't draw flies.

Lip