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View Full Version : The JR Era... Sox Doomed?


LVSoxFan
10-08-2004, 10:10 AM
Now that all is said and done for 2004, from the blazing start to the post-Tori-Hunter sad decline (I don't know if I like the long, slow, torturous death of the Sox or the last-minute chokes of the Cubs better), I did some thinking: where now?

The thing that keeps nagging me is whether we have a great team with everybody healthy (2000, 2003) or the potential blame-it-on-injuries flameout of 2004, we never get it done. When was the last time we were in the Series? 1959? Last time we made the playoffs, we were swept in the first round.

None of this is news to all you more-knowledgable Sox fans here, but I started to think: do we really think--seriously--that we will ever get it done as long as JR is the owner? Look at his history with the Bulls: he was loyal to JK as he "rebuilt" the Bulls into a guaranteed loser for at lest a decade. Do we really think somebody with that mentality is ever going to take the steps to make the Sox a winner? Mr. White Flag Trade?

To their credit--and I hate them--the Cubs spent the money and took the big steps to try and win a Series: hiring Baker, paying for talent, importing big names like Nomar. Sure, who knew that team would turn out to be such a bunch of crybabies, but the oft-maligned (and rightly so) Tribune Corp. made a run at it. And that's a pretty sad thing to imagine, that the Tribune Corp. dwarfs JR in taking the bold steps needed to put together a winner.

And honestly, I just don't see it happening as long as JR is the owner. I watch with envy what happened to the Angels when they got their new owner--a guy who actually goes to the games, mingles with the fans, and incredibly lowered the concession prices in the park after taking over. And made some big purchases, player-wise. That's sure paying off now.

If there's a light at the end of the tunnel, somebody please point it out. I'm not trying to be defeatist, I'm just looking for some reason to look forward to 2005--from a guy who went to 18 games and had to watch them go 8-10 when I was there!

kittle42
10-08-2004, 10:14 AM
from a guy who went to 18 games and had to watch them go 8-10 when I was there!
Don't complain....8-19 in 27 games.

idseer
10-08-2004, 10:17 AM
Now that all is said and done for 2004, from the blazing start to the post-Tori-Hunter sad decline (I don't know if I like the long, slow, torturous death of the Sox or the last-minute chokes of the Cubs better), I did some thinking: where now?

The thing that keeps nagging me is whether we have a great team with everybody healthy (2000, 2003) or the potential blame-it-on-injuries flameout of 2004, we never get it done. When was the last time we were in the Series? 1959? Last time we made the playoffs, we were swept in the first round.

None of this is news to all you more-knowledgable Sox fans here, but I started to think: do we really think--seriously--that we will ever get it done as long as JR is the owner? Look at his history with the Bulls: he was loyal to JK as he "rebuilt" the Bulls into a guaranteed loser for at lest a decade. Do we really think somebody with that mentality is ever going to take the steps to make the Sox a winner? Mr. White Flag Trade?

To their credit--and I hate them--the Cubs spent the money and took the big steps to try and win a Series: hiring Baker, paying for talent, importing big names like Nomar. Sure, who knew that team would turn out to be such a bunch of crybabies, but the oft-maligned (and rightly so) Tribune Corp. made a run at it. And that's a pretty sad thing to imagine, that the Tribune Corp. dwarfs JR in taking the bold steps needed to put together a winner.

And honestly, I just don't see it happening as long as JR is the owner. I watch with envy what happened to the Angels when they got their new owner--a guy who actually goes to the games, mingles with the fans, and incredibly lowered the concession prices in the park after taking over. And made some big purchases, player-wise. That's sure paying off now.

If there's a light at the end of the tunnel, somebody please point it out. I'm not trying to be defeatist, I'm just looking for some reason to look forward to 2005--from a guy who went to 18 games and had to watch them go 8-10 when I was there!i made that statement about 10 years ago. i'd hoped i was wrong, but even at the best of times he did so many things that hurt this team and it's fans.
regardless what he says, the sox brass does not have 'being a champion' at the top of their list.
i see no light at the end of this tunnel either.

Dan H
10-08-2004, 11:58 AM
I would like to say I see light at the end of the tunnel, but I don't. The only thing that will change my mind is an active off season before 2005. But I am not counting on it.

Lip Man 1
10-08-2004, 12:11 PM
Here is what history has to say (not me mind you, but the historical facts)

1. This ownership refuses to spend the large amounts of money needed to secure quality players in depth, which overcomes bad luck, slumps and injuries.

2. This organization refuses to take all means necessary to acquire talent. The Sox will not participate in acquiring the highly touted international free agents (those foreign players not subject to the draft like Ichiero) for example.

3. This organization refuses to spend the money needed to acquire the top front office people, field managers and talent scouts. (If you feel going with the kids a la Minnesota is the way to go)

4. This organization in the past has refused to spend the money needed to sign some of their draft picks and would rather make trades rather then sign the top free agents.

5. This organization severly limits it's ability to acquire talent because of it's contract limits and its relationship with some agents.

The name of the game is talent. Getting as much of it as you can by whatever means necessary.

Until the organization realizes this fact the Sox will not win and the treadmill to nowhere will continue.

Lip

kittle42
10-08-2004, 12:29 PM
But, Lip - how can you say that before the offseason even starts?

CubKilla
10-08-2004, 12:35 PM
This Organization and many of the decisions it has made is a joke and will continue to be such until JR dies/sells. I expect nothing more than mediocrity year in and year out.

Judy fits in perfect with this team.

LVSoxFan
10-08-2004, 04:20 PM
Don't complain....8-19 in 27 games.
Wow, now THAT is brutal!

Ol' No. 2
10-08-2004, 04:30 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2210&stc=1Enough already!

daveeym
10-08-2004, 04:35 PM
JR's pal crumbs is looking for a job and I'm sure he would love finding some diamonds in the rough for the sox. (Have no idea what color I should make this.)

Jerome
10-08-2004, 11:44 PM
I hate JR's cheapness as much as anybody, but when the Bulls were winning championships, he gave MJ like 30 million one year. The UC was filled like every game.



JR will open the checkbook for the Bulls. The Sox, another story.

GO BULLS!

hellenicsoxfan
10-09-2004, 03:34 AM
Here is what history has to say (not me mind you, but the historical facts)

1. This ownership refuses to spend the large amounts of money needed to secure quality players in depth, which overcomes bad luck, slumps and injuries.

2. This organization refuses to take all means necessary to acquire talent. The Sox will not participate in acquiring the highly touted international free agents (those foreign players not subject to the draft like Ichiero) for example.

3. This organization refuses to spend the money needed to acquire the top front office people, field managers and talent scouts. (If you feel going with the kids a la Minnesota is the way to go)

4. This organization in the past has refused to spend the money needed to sign some of their draft picks and would rather make trades rather then sign the top free agents.

5. This organization severly limits it's ability to acquire talent because of it's contract limits and its relationship with some agents.

The name of the game is talent. Getting as much of it as you can by whatever means necessary.

Until the organization realizes this fact the Sox will not win and the treadmill to nowhere will continue.

LipI agree with everything you say. I am disgusted with what Reinsdorf has done to our team. Instead of using being in the third largest market and in a world class city that players love to his advantage, he has turned our Sox into just an afterthought among the Chicago media, national media and potential free agents. He keeps saying that this is a Cub town and uses that as a reason for running the Sox with a small market mentality. Well, it wasn't a Cub town when he bought the team or as recently as 1993. Then came 1994 when Reinsdorf allowed himself to become the person most associated with the "greedy owners who cancelled the World Series". Since then, it's been one debacle after another. Now the Sox just patch together a team and if the team is in contention and attendance is up, then they'll make an aggressive move, usually a rent-a-player. What this team needs is to hire a top notch baseball man to develop a long term plan to turn this franchise into a first class team, with the realization that some money will be spent to make money. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening with Reinsdorf and my greatest hope for the Sox is for Reinsdorf to sell the team to someone with the financial backing and commitment to making the Sox the very best team. The White Sox fans deserve this.

Clarkdog
10-11-2004, 02:46 PM
Here is what history has to say (not me mind you, but the historical facts)

1. This ownership refuses to spend the large amounts of money needed to secure quality players in depth, which overcomes bad luck, slumps and injuries.

2. This organization refuses to take all means necessary to acquire talent. The Sox will not participate in acquiring the highly touted international free agents (those foreign players not subject to the draft like Ichiero) for example.

3. This organization refuses to spend the money needed to acquire the top front office people, field managers and talent scouts. (If you feel going with the kids a la Minnesota is the way to go)

4. This organization in the past has refused to spend the money needed to sign some of their draft picks and would rather make trades rather then sign the top free agents.

5. This organization severly limits it's ability to acquire talent because of it's contract limits and its relationship with some agents.

The name of the game is talent. Getting as much of it as you can by whatever means necessary.

Until the organization realizes this fact the Sox will not win and the treadmill to nowhere will continue.

Lip
Haven't posted in a while, but I have been thinking a great deal about this. Lip, the points you raise are all excellent. But what I think they bring to light is a general lack of focus and strategy by the front office in how to go about winning a championship. While it is the goal - there does not appear to be a clear strategy in attaining it - especially when you listen to contradicting KW soundbites, and bizzare activity (or lack therof) of the front office.

1. When it comes to spending money to assure depth, the Sox have never identified where and how they should spend thier money to bring depth to where it's needed most. With the way they spend money, they will never be deep everywhere. Let's just accept that as fact. So how do you prioritize - Pitching (starting/bullpen), offense, defense, fundamentals? The Sox tend to spread the money out evenly instead of prioritizing to define what type of team they want to be. The Sox want to pass themselves off as an offensive powerhouse, with a solid rotation designed to eat innings, that plays fair defense. Not on a 70M payroll. In reality, the Sox are an offense that is a feast or famine proposition because of their lack of fundamental depth, a rotation that does eat innings but can't hold leads consistently, and defensively can catch the ball but at the same time doesn't tend to make the "big play" that kills rallys or takes potential runs away from teams.

2. The Sox thinking here is spotty as well. They pursue someone like Shingo, but then take wait and see - or let some else scout - other foreign free agents outside the draft system. I think your point is right on with the operative term being "free agent". Free Agent = $$$$

3. This is where loyalty gets in the way of winning a championship. If the goal is being on Chicago Magazine's list of great companies to work for then the White Sox are doing a great job. But if you're trying to win a championship you have to try to attain and retain the best baseball minds in the business. Based on the Sox track record under this ownership group, there is clearly a dearth of talent in this area.

4. Again, the Sox will spend money on a Joe Borchard but not on someone like Tom Gordon. Where is the right place to spend your money? Without a defined strategy for winning - it's hard to know.

5. If the goal is winning a championship, then playing games with agents and players in contract negotiations seems counterproductive to that goal. They are as much a factor (if not a partner) in acheiving that ultimate goal. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Now I'm not saying that the Sox should cave to every agent/player demand. But these stories about attempting to talk to players without agents, smearing players in the media and "miscommunications" between players, agents and the front office can't do much for the Sox reputation as a "square dealer".

The point of this is that for me it appears that the Sox thought process is backwards. They are tactical thinkers - they focus on and appear unwilling to budge on how they want to do things day-to-day over how to achieve the ultimate goal of winning a championship. To develop a strategy toward winning championship would require a change in the way the Sox front office conducts it's business everyday - and there is way too big a confort level there. It's been 23 years in the making.

Ownership change is likely the only way the Sox will sniff the World Series. I hope I'm wrong but...

Lip Man 1
10-11-2004, 05:24 PM
Clark:

Terriffic analysis. Hard to find fault with your comments (although I'm sure the Reinsdorf supporters will...)

I was especially struck with your final though and that makes sense. With this ownership it has always been about the bottom line, short term thinking, 'how can we get a profit for the minority owners at the next yearly meeting?' instead of taking risks and attempting to put a good product on the field to build interest, excitement and spike attendence (which translates into more money.)

Very nicely done.

Lip

SEALgep
10-11-2004, 05:33 PM
But, Lip - how can you say that before the offseason even starts?You can tell any half story you want before the offseason, that doesn't mean that's how it is.

PavanoBeltran'05
10-11-2004, 05:40 PM
The one thing that gets me is with a game plan, it's still sometimes hard to execute it. For instance, look at the Yankees....they've got all the money in the world, and decided to spend it all on their position guys. They've got mashers, and have had them for years, but their lack of a starting rotation is killing them, and will probably kill them again in the playoffs this year.

They've done a good job spending money on the 'pen, but the grind that they've put on their bullpen with the ineptitude of the front end is hurting them, as well. Rivera isn't quite as dominant as he had been, and a big contributing factor to that is the wear he's been having to go through this year and last.

Florida and Arizona (even though the Yanks DID make the WS) have been exposing the Yankees in the playoffs by having great starting pitching. The Yanks have continually been overmatched in recent years, illustrating the point that it's a hard balancing act.

What way do the Sox go besides trying to balance things out? I do believe they have a good rotation, and another arm will make it a very competitive rotation. They've got a pen that may end up being great, especially if a couple of the youngsters continues to mature and improve.

I believe baseball is more of a chemistry thing than a talent thing more times than not. The yankees were winning with guys like Paul O'Neill and Brosius, who aren't a sniff of the talents that Giambi, A-Rod, and others are. I believe the Yanks will lose again this year sometime in these playoffs. O'Neill, Tino, and others just knew how to get it done.
The main problem with this Sox crew of late is that they've really had no leadership to bring chemistry together. Manuel was a terrible manager in that regard. Ozzie has been better, and he'll continue to make that area of the team improve. Hubie Brown, NBA coach of the year was quoted as saying, "Before a team is a perennial playoff contender, they've gotta be lead (by the coach himself) before they can lead. Once they get there and establish themselves, then the All-Star guys on the team can take charge."
The Sox have had more talent than a lot of teams in the last few years, and they haven't gotten it done. This is a case where addition by subtraction could be huge. Get rid of the same old gripers or bandwagon heroes. Add some guys that produce less overall but produce more when it counts. You don't need to spend 25 million dollars on your world series hero (Bernie Williams, Josh Beckett, etc. are good examples)...it's the fiery guys that just know how to win that will ultimately lead this team in the right direction.

I honestly believe Ozzie will address that situation more this offseason that we've seen in years past. It's not how much you spend, but how well you spend what you've got. Until the league wisens up and gets a cap, that's what the Sox have to do.

Lip Man 1
10-11-2004, 08:12 PM
Seal says: "That doesn't mean that's how it is."

Oh you mean like last season? LOL

Seal my friend you need to say your prayers every night until spring training asking the man upstairs to let you be right. Cause if not.....

Lip

SEALgep
10-11-2004, 08:33 PM
Seal says: "That doesn't mean that's how it is."

Oh you mean like last season? LOL

Seal my friend you need to say your prayers every night until spring training asking the man upstairs to let you be right. Cause if not.....

LipIf not what? You're going to have something to say, scary. Anyway, you're ignoring a lot of the situation in order to spread your pessimism, which is fine if you want, but many here can see the BS.

Daver
10-11-2004, 08:38 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/deadhorse.gif

OEO Magglio
10-11-2004, 08:39 PM
Seal says: "That doesn't mean that's how it is."

Oh you mean like last season? LOL

Seal my friend you need to say your prayers every night until spring training asking the man upstairs to let you be right. Cause if not.....

Lip
I still don't see the point of acting like the offseason has sucked before it even starts, just pointless, imo.

PavanoBeltran'05
10-11-2004, 10:02 PM
I just thought of something. I wonder how old Lip is??? He's the arch cynic as far as White Sox baseball is concerned. I am just wondering. I'm only 25, and I still have some faith as to what this franchise can do. I hope that this stuff doesn't keep on for enough years to make me as war torn and hateful towards the organization that I love. I can definitely see how it can happen. Up until about 8 years ago, I didn't really get into the behind the scenes stuff about the Sox. Now, since I'm getting wise to all the Sox BS, I just hope it doesn't go on for 20 more years to make me that jaded.

Lip Man 1
10-11-2004, 10:32 PM
Pavano:

I turned 49 on August 25th. I've been a Sox fan since I was five.

Lip

PavanoBeltran'05
10-11-2004, 10:57 PM
Pavano:

I turned 49 on August 25th. I've been a Sox fan since I was five.

LipYeah..I can see how year after year of the same old crap served on a different platter can jade you beyond repair. I've only been a Sox fan for 21 years, and the lack of a championship (or anything close) is getting to me.

TornLabrum
10-11-2004, 11:03 PM
Yeah..I can see how year after year of the same old crap served on a different platter can jade you beyond repair. I've only been a Sox fan for 21 years, and the lack of a championship (or anything close) is getting to me.
This was my 50th season as a Sox fan. You think YOU'VE got problems....

The Cheat
10-11-2004, 11:03 PM
NY's attendance is 3.775M people.
White Sox attendance is 1.93M people.

NY attendance is roughly twice what the White Sox is. Average tix prices in NY out weigh thouse in Chicago by about 40%... Georgy boy has the largest TV contract of any team in baseball. All of this adds up to a whole lot more money to spend.

The fact is that JR is not cheap, he spends a greater percentage of his revenue than the Yankees do.

BoSox attendance is 2.83M people.

Boston's average ticket price is over twice what it is for the White sox. They draw more fans than the Sox, and they have a payroll about double the White sox. JR spends a greater percentage of his revenue than the BoSox do.

Boston is being cheap. NY is being cheap. The JR is cheap excuse doesn't work.

gosox41
10-12-2004, 08:54 AM
I still don't see the point of acting like the offseason has sucked before it even starts, just pointless, imo.
Welcome to the World of Lip.

I'm sure all the anti-JR posts are going to change a lot.


Bob

gosox41
10-12-2004, 09:00 AM
NY's attendance is 3.775M people.
White Sox attendance is 1.93M people.

NY attendance is roughly twice what the White Sox is. Average tix prices in NY out weigh thouse in Chicago by about 40%... Georgy boy has the largest TV contract of any team in baseball. All of this adds up to a whole lot more money to spend.

The fact is that JR is not cheap, he spends a greater percentage of his revenue than the Yankees do.

BoSox attendance is 2.83M people.

Boston's average ticket price is over twice what it is for the White sox. They draw more fans than the Sox, and they have a payroll about double the White sox. JR spends a greater percentage of his revenue than the BoSox do.

Boston is being cheap. NY is being cheap. The JR is cheap excuse doesn't work.
No one talks about the Cubs and their revenue. They draw 1 million more fans then the Sox do. Their average ticket prices are higher. They don't need 1/2 price nights or $1 kid days or $1 hot dogs to get fans their either, further eating into revenue. They have higher TV ratings, higher radio ratings, and yet their payroll is only $30 mill. per year higher then the Sox. The difference of 1 million fans at the Cubs prices is worth that $30 mill by itselft let alone the other 2 million they draw at higher ticket prices then the Sox draw their 2 million.


Bob

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 10:27 AM
No one talks about the Cubs and their revenue. They draw 1 million more fans then the Sox do. Their average ticket prices are higher. They don't need 1/2 price nights or $1 kid days or $1 hot dogs to get fans their either, further eating into revenue. They have higher TV ratings, higher radio ratings, and yet their payroll is only $30 mill. per year higher then the Sox. The difference of 1 million fans at the Cubs prices is worth that $30 mill by itselft let alone the other 2 million they draw at higher ticket prices then the Sox draw their 2 million.


Bob
Yeah, but if JR was a "real" owner, he'd up the payroll to $100mil anyway!!! It's obvious!!

Lip Man 1
10-12-2004, 11:40 AM
Bob:

I'm perfectly content to wait secure in the knowledge that the leopard can't change his spots and you can't discount 24 years of history.

This is going to be fun!

Lip

gosox41
10-12-2004, 12:15 PM
Bob:

I'm perfectly content to wait secure in the knowledge that the leopard can't change his spots and you can't discount 24 years of history.

This is going to be fun!

Lip
Lip,

I have to ask the obvious. If you don't think anything is going to change, then why keep bringing it up?


Bob

Lip Man 1
10-12-2004, 05:16 PM
When threads are started I'm going to participate. Check and see how many threads I've started on the Uncle Jerry / payroll / Kenny Williams issues? Not many. I think you are going after the wrong guy....try talking to the folks who START the threads if they bother you so much.

I mean it's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it considering the number of posts you make dealing with how bad Williams is. I could easily say 'we know your position Bob...you keep bashing Kenny yet can't name any replacements when asked... so why don't you drop it...'

But I don't do I?

Also I love to irritate the optimists and stat geeks!

:smile:

Can't wait to see the flurry of big money activity this off season!

Lip

gosox41
10-13-2004, 08:14 AM
When threads are started I'm going to participate. Check and see how many threads I've started on the Uncle Jerry / payroll / Kenny Williams issues? Not many. I think you are going after the wrong guy....try talking to the folks who START the threads if they bother you so much.

I mean it's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it considering the number of posts you make dealing with how bad Williams is. I could easily say 'we know your position Bob...you keep bashing Kenny yet can't name any replacements when asked... so why don't you drop it...'

But I don't do I?

Also I love to irritate the optimists and stat geeks!

:smile:

Can't wait to see the flurry of big money activity this off season!

Lip
I have mentioned possible GM's over the last couple of years. From Evans to Depodesta to to Riccardi. Heck, I'd take Steve Stone as GM over KW.

And when I get the time I can come up with more names. I'm not going to mention names of guys who are under contract as current GM's.

How about finding some likely buyers for this team, Lip? And not just reading down Fortune magazines list of the richest people in the world. How about finding a realistic scenario there? I can't recall seeing to many recommendations.

I don't think you're irritating us stat geeks at all. If anything some of the stuff you write is wrong and could easily be shown so with minimal research. For example, your rant about the White Sox being too cheap to hire an experienced GM. For example, Oakland, the Yankees, Red Sox, and Cubs all went 'cheap' and hired rookie GM's.

They may not be rookies now, but neither is KW. But they were all rookies and inexperienced when hired.


Bob

jabrch
10-13-2004, 08:44 AM
Also I love to irritate the optimists and stat geeks!

:smile:

Can't wait to see the flurry of big money activity this off season!

Lip

It's funny - the stat geeks aren't irritated by you. And the "optimists", I'll call them those who haven't irrationally committed 2005 fan-suicide before the 2004 World Series even starts, laugh at you and your misery.

With as miserable as you are, I am still surprised you waste so much energy being a fan. If anything in my life made me as negative as the Sox make you, I'd run like hell.

If your goal is to irritate anyone - it seems you have been a worse failure than JR.

Lip Man 1
10-13-2004, 01:07 PM
Jabrch:

If I was you I'd run like hell too!

It's interesting that you say I'm miserable yet you've never met me nor do you know me. WOW! I wish I had your talent!

Funny I don't think I'm miserable and I'm the only one who counts to paraphrase Reggie Jackson.

And I must be irritating you since you can't wait to answer with snide remarks. Great! Just doing my job... perhaps making you miserable!

Can't wait to see all the off season moves!

Lip