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JRIG
10-07-2004, 07:00 AM
Thomas also had a .434 on-base percentage, easily the best on the team. The Sox, among the bottom half of American League teams in on-base percentage, have targeted that area for 2005. Thomas would help, but the Sox also are interested in adding team speed and defense, and Thomas offers neither.


http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox07.html

Ridiculous. Isn't that like saying, "The Blackhawks have targeted scoring as a need for the 1985 season. Wayne Gretzky would help, but the team is also interested in adding defense and toughness, and Gretzky offers neither."

Deadguy
10-07-2004, 08:19 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox07.html

Ridiculous. Isn't that like saying, "The Blackhawks have targeted scoring as a need for the 1985 season. Wayne Gretzky would help, but the team is also interested in adding defense and toughness, and Gretzky offers neither."Thomas, who doesn't talk to team executives or media during the offseason, could not be reached for comment.That is more than likely why the last few comments were added to the article. If the standard "Gee golly gee, I will let it heal and try my darndest to be in Tucson on time, blah blah blah" quote from Thomas could have been used, there would have been no need to add additional comments to slander him. Remember, this is all Frank's fault. :redneck

34 Inch Stick
10-07-2004, 08:23 AM
This is all so meaningless (suprising as it is coming from Joe Cowley). Frank will be exercising his 8 million dollar option. He will be in the lineup every day unless he is hurt.

They need to put something between the pages of advertising.

Jjav829
10-07-2004, 08:45 AM
Before this gets out of hand, let the record show that the comment about Frank not offering speed or defense was made by Padilla, and is not necessarily a reflection of the White Sox front office. I just don't want to see this get overblown into some 20 page thread where by the end of it people are ripping Kenny or Ozzie for saying Frank isn't valuable because he doesn't bunt.

BTW, I personally don't see the story here. I don't think Padilla was ripping Frank for not adding two things to the team that we all know he doesn't add. It seemed like he was just trying to bring a close to the story by tying it in with the Sox offseason plans.

samram
10-07-2004, 08:54 AM
I don't know why anyone would waste even one minute reading anything by Doug Padilla. The two articles referenced here on WSI this week probably took him a total of 20 minutes to write and he probably did it from a beach somewhere.

gosox41
10-07-2004, 09:53 AM
Before this gets out of hand, let the record show that the comment about Frank not offering speed or defense was made by Padilla, and is not necessarily a reflection of the White Sox front office. I just don't want to see this get overblown into some 20 page thread where by the end of it people are ripping Kenny or Ozzie for saying Frank isn't valuable because he doesn't bunt.

BTW, I personally don't see the story here. I don't think Padilla was ripping Frank for not adding two things to the team that we all know he doesn't add. It seemed like he was just trying to bring a close to the story by tying it in with the Sox offseason plans.
I don't care to read the article. But I do know the Sox front office, led by Kenny Williams, wants Frank gone.


Bob

mweflen
10-07-2004, 10:39 AM
To me, the question is this: Why did Frank wait so long to have surgery? Why not in August, so next April is not in doubt?

MisterB
10-07-2004, 10:51 AM
To me, the question is this: Why did Frank wait so long to have surgery? Why not in August, so next April is not in doubt?
As Beckett21 posted elsewhere (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=509288#post509288), the timeline is dead on with the standard course of treatment for his kind of injury. Surgery wasn't really an option before now.

Jerome
10-07-2004, 11:44 AM
YAYYYYYY! THE SOX ARE TARGETING OBP!!!!!!!

NO MORE VALENTIN! NO MORE CREDE!

The Sox were at their best last June when Willie and Uribe were getting on base for the big boppers. If we had a hi-OBP leadoff man, our offense would be unstopabble.

hitlesswonder
10-07-2004, 11:52 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox07.html

Ridiculous. Isn't that like saying, "The Blackhawks have targeted scoring as a need for the 1985 season. Wayne Gretzky would help, but the team is also interested in adding defense and toughness, and Gretzky offers neither."
That an excellent analogy :) I'm not really impressed (to put it politely) with Padilla's coverage of the Sox. After Thomas and Ordonez went down, Padilla wrote a column about how the Sox still had more talent than the Twins and should win the division, but were underachieving again. It makes you wonder if he even watches the games. It certainly displays a remarkable degree of laziness and lack of analytical thinking. I wish I could get a job like that.

fquaye149
10-07-2004, 11:59 AM
I don't care to read the article. But I do know the Sox front office, led by Kenny Williams, wants Frank gone.


Bob
do you know something from the inside?

or are you making baseless assumptions?


i am genuinely curious, because besides the diminished skills clause and a few scattered rumors about Frank to LA for pitching I have not heard anything about the White Sox wanting to get rid of Frank.

Lip Man 1
10-07-2004, 12:40 PM
Here is the latest to answer your question. In Bob Foltman's story today on the surgery, in the Tribune, he talks about last year and the 'decoy' incident that Ken Williams requested. He also has this line. "The two got into a shouting match in the clubhouse and haven't spoken since."

I haven't seen this mentioned and felt this was the right spot for it.

As Bob has stated the two really don't like each other.

Williams thinks Thomas is not a team player and a disruptive factor in the clubhouse. He also thinks his 'me first' attitude (Williams thoughts..not mine) poisons the attitude of the young Sox players. He has tried to manipulate it (involving Thomas' diminished skills clause) to force Thomas out.

Thomas on the other hand, thinks Williams has personally gone out of his way to blame him for many of the failures of the club and organization. Thomas does have a lot of pride (some would say ego) and feels what Williams has done shows him no respect for his years of service.

It's really a bad scenario. With little communication between the two it will be hard for the Sox to gage this off season, how he is healing. That factors into if they can trade Konerko or Lee. If they can't count on Thomas, they can't deal the other two guys, it's that simple. if they can't deal one of their most marketable players they can't get the 'grinders, on base guys,' call them what you will that they so desperately need.

Lip

Win1ForMe
10-07-2004, 07:54 PM
I don't know why anyone would waste even one minute reading anything by Doug Padilla.People will use anything they can get their hands on (no matter how ridiculous or poorly researched) just so they can start ANOTHER thread complaining about Williams/Reinsdorf/etc.

:threadsucks
Congratulations, you earned it.

RKMeibalane
10-07-2004, 08:17 PM
Given how badly this team imploded in Frank's absence, I would hope that people would be smarter than to question his value to Sox organization. With that in mind, I think Padilla was just trying to fill some space in the paper. Anyone who really knows baseball understands Thomas' value, especially in light of what happened to the Sox once he went down.

gosox41
10-08-2004, 02:34 PM
do you know something from the inside?

or are you making baseless assumptions?


i am genuinely curious, because besides the diminished skills clause and a few scattered rumors about Frank to LA for pitching I have not heard anything about the White Sox wanting to get rid of Frank.
The Diminished skills clause was huge in getting rid of Frank. Rumor has it that JR stepped in and had to work out a new contract to avoid seeing Frank go and that Kenny was furious when he heard this.

But there's no doubt in my mind that Frank is gone after the 2005 season even if he has a monster year. Want to avoid that? Start protesting as a fan.

It's sad because Frank is one of my favorites and I appreciate how great he really is.



Bob

mdep524
10-08-2004, 03:20 PM
The Diminished skills clause was huge in getting rid of Frank. Rumor has it that JR stepped in and had to work out a new contract to avoid seeing Frank go and that Kenny was furious when he heard this.

But there's no doubt in my mind that Frank is gone after the 2005 season even if he has a monster year. Want to avoid that? Start protesting as a fan.

It's sad because Frank is one of my favorites and I appreciate how great he really is.
Frank is one of my favorite all time players also, and people who question his value as a player to the Sox clearly don't know what they are talking about.

The one point I would make though is that the Sox biggest fault in all this seems to be depending on Frank. Frank has had some monster seasons- 1993, 94, 2000, etc., but he is not reliable enough to be the Sox number one option these days (from 2000 on). Whether it be for health reasons (2001, 2004) or failure in the clutch (2000 playoffs, '03 series in Minnesota), something always seems to come up to prevent Frank from putting the Sox over the top. I hope Frank plays his heart out for the Sox in '05, but he certainly isn't going to carry this team on his back, he just can't do it anymore. So I hope the Sox get some help for him as opposed to saying "well, Frank is back, let's see how far he can take us."

santo=dorf
10-08-2004, 04:31 PM
The Diminished skills clause was huge in getting rid of Frank. Rumor has it that JR stepped in and had to work out a new contract to avoid seeing Frank go and that Kenny was furious when he heard this.

But there's no doubt in my mind that Frank is gone after the 2005 season even if he has a monster year. Want to avoid that? Start protesting as a fan.

It's sad because Frank is one of my favorites and I appreciate how great he really is.



Bob
So you don't know for a fact that the front office wants to get rid of Frank do you?

If it is so widely known that the front office is sick of Frank, why would he pick up his option for 6 million in 2004 after hitting 40 homers and 100 RBI's in 2003? Why would he activate his option for 8 million next year? What makes you think Frank will leave after next year considering he has a player's option for 10 million? Why wouldn't he pick up the option for 2006 if he picked up an option for 2005 that pays 2 million?

do you know something from the inside?

or are you making baseless assumptions?
I'm going with the latter.

Flight #24
10-08-2004, 04:39 PM
So you don't know for a fact that the front office wants to get rid of Frank do you?

If it is so widely known that the front office is sick of Frank, why would he pick up his option for 6 million in 2004 after hitting 40 homers and 100 RBI's in 2003? Why would he activate his option for 8 million next year? What makes you think Frank will leave after next year considering he has a player's option for 10 million? Why wouldn't he pick up the option for 2006 if he picked up an option for 2005 that pays 2 million?

I'm going with the latter.
Frank was unlikely to make more $$$ on the open market, so he picked up his oiption. He will continue to do so until the team has a buyout. IIRC, that buyout is in the last year of the deal, or after the conclusion of 2006 - when his 2007 salary would be 12mil, not after the conclusion of 2005, when his 2006 salary would be 10mil.

But I may be a year off on the contract length and terms.

batmanZoSo
10-08-2004, 08:34 PM
Ridiculous. Isn't that like saying, "The Blackhawks have targeted scoring as a need for the 1985 season. Wayne Gretzky would help, but the team is also interested in adding defense and toughness, and Gretzky offers neither."

Yes.

Just as moronic. And I'm sure a few dopes out there agree with Padilla.

Deadguy
10-08-2004, 09:39 PM
Frank was unlikely to make more $$$ on the open market, so he picked up his oiption. He will continue to do so until the team has a buyout. IIRC, that buyout is in the last year of the deal, or after the conclusion of 2006 - when his 2007 salary would be 12mil, not after the conclusion of 2005, when his 2006 salary would be 10mil.

But I may be a year off on the contract length and terms.
The buyout is 3.5 million after 2005, if Thomas exercises his 10 million dollar option.

RKMeibalane
10-08-2004, 10:06 PM
Frank was unlikely to make more $$$ on the open market, so he picked up his oiption. He will continue to do so until the team has a buyout. IIRC, that buyout is in the last year of the deal, or after the conclusion of 2006 - when his 2007 salary would be 12mil, not after the conclusion of 2005, when his 2006 salary would be 10mil.

But I may be a year off on the contract length and terms.
It's looking more and more as though 2005 will be Frank's last season with the Sox. That's unfortunate for more reasons than I can list here. The only thing I have to say about the situation is this: if Frank Thomas wins a World Series with another ballclub, Ken Williams should be fired, if for no other reason, because the greatest player in Sox history would be enjoying his finest moments while wearing another uniform.

Daver
10-08-2004, 10:22 PM
It's looking more and more as though 2005 will be Frank's last season with the Sox. That's unfortunate for more reasons than I can list here. The only thing I have to say about the situation is this: if Frank Thomas wins a World Series with another ballclub, Ken Williams should be fired, if for no other reason, because the greatest player in Sox history would be enjoying his finest moments while wearing another uniform.
Don't bet on it.

As long as Frank is producing JR will keep him around, whether Kenny likes it or not.

RKMeibalane
10-08-2004, 10:25 PM
Don't bet on it.

As long as Frank is producing JR will keep him around, whether Kenny likes it or not.
If that's the case, then maybe KW should think about the fact that picking a fight with the team's best player, who just happens to be a favorite of the owner, could cost him his job. Then again, no one ever said Kenny Williams was intelligent.

:KW

"Is it Berry or Barry?"

Shingotime!!
10-08-2004, 11:46 PM
Am i the only one who thinks that if we aquire Jason Kendall from the Pirates via a trade we will have solved all our probems. Heres the lineup.

1 Kendall (C)
2 Rowand (CF)
3 Lee (LF)
4 Thomas (DH)
5 Konerko (1B)
6 Everett (RF)
7 Uribe (SS)
8 Crede (3B)
9 Harris (2B)

Ol' No. 2
10-08-2004, 11:52 PM
Am i the only one who thinks that if we aquire Jason Kendall from the Pirates via a trade we will have solved all our probems. Heres the lineup.

1 Kendall (C)
2 Rowand (CF)
3 Lee (LF)
4 Thomas (DH)
5 Konerko (1B)
6 Everett (RF)
7 Uribe (SS)
8 Crede (3B)
9 Harris (2B)Welcome. But please don't post the same stuff on more than one board.

Nellie_Fox
10-09-2004, 12:09 AM
Am i the only one who thinks that if we aquire Jason Kendall from the Pirates via a trade we will have solved all our probems. Heres the lineup.

1 Kendall (C)
2 Rowand (CF)
3 Lee (LF)
4 Thomas (DH)
5 Konerko (1B)
6 Everett (RF)
7 Uribe (SS)
8 Crede (3B)
9 Harris (2B)How in the world does Everett in right and Crede at third "solve all of our problems?" Everett has no defensive instincts; he used to be able to make up for misplaying the ball with his speed. That speed is gone, so now when he breaks the wrong way as he so often does, it's trouble. Crede can't hit, and he's been given plenty of time to turn it around.

gosox41
10-09-2004, 09:15 AM
So you don't know for a fact that the front office wants to get rid of Frank do you?

If it is so widely known that the front office is sick of Frank, why would he pick up his option for 6 million in 2004 after hitting 40 homers and 100 RBI's in 2003? Why would he activate his option for 8 million next year? What makes you think Frank will leave after next year considering he has a player's option for 10 million? Why wouldn't he pick up the option for 2006 if he picked up an option for 2005 that pays 2 million?

I'm going with the latter.
Depnds on who you mean by front office. JR wants him around and worked out a new contract to keep him here. KW does not. I count KW as part of the front office. I cerntainly don't know the opinions of every front office employee.

Frank keeps coming back and exercising his option at a lower salary for 2 main reasons:

1. He wants to stay here.
2. No team is offering him a comparable contract.

Seeing as how you don't seem to know much about Frank's contract. Frank has an option to pick up another year on his contract or test the FA market. If he decides to test the FA market the Sox can either pcik up his option at a higher salary or let him be a FA.

After 2005, the Sox have a $3.5 mill buyout which they can exercise unilaterally. .



Bob

gosox41
10-09-2004, 09:18 AM
It's looking more and more as though 2005 will be Frank's last season with the Sox. That's unfortunate for more reasons than I can list here. The only thing I have to say about the situation is this: if Frank Thomas wins a World Series with another ballclub, Ken Williams should be fired, if for no other reason, because the greatest player in Sox history would be enjoying his finest moments while wearing another uniform.
Pesonally, I think it's a shame that WIlliams doesn't see how valuable 40 HR's and a .420 OBP is to a team and let's his ego make the decisions. I mean how else can Williams justify wanting Frank shipped out and keeping PK at more money per season? It's either KW's ego or his ignorance. You pick.



Bob

PavanoBeltran'05
10-09-2004, 10:27 AM
I love Frank, but I love seeing the Sox win more. If and ONLY if KW could get something significant in a trade for Frank, I think it would be time to part ways. Frank is getting older, and despite his consistent production even at this age, we're now being faced with a chronic foot and ankle injury on the main fulcrum of his swing. That's not good news, and if we could get something good for him, he should go.

Now, if we can't get anything of good value for him, then we should make every effort to keep him signed and here in Chicago. He's been great for a long time, and it would be awesome to see him retire in OUR pinstripes.

Mickster
10-09-2004, 10:37 AM
I love Frank, but I love seeing the Sox win more. If and ONLY if KW could get something significant in a trade for Frank, I think it would be time to part ways. Frank is getting older, and despite his consistent production even at this age, we're now being faced with a chronic foot and ankle injury on the main fulcrum of his swing. That's not good news, and if we could get something good for him, he should go.

Now, if we can't get anything of good value for him, then we should make every effort to keep him signed and here in Chicago. He's been great for a long time, and it would be awesome to see him retire in OUR pinstripes.
We don't know how Frank's surgery will effect his play. It is all speculation at this point. What I find strange is that people would love to see Frank go, yet in the same breath clamor about getting someone like Kendall or some other high OBP guy. Frank's OPB was incredible. Frank's walk totals at the time of his injury were incredible. I think that Frank finished 2nd on the Sox for walks to Paul who played almost 90 more games than him. And actually, I think Paul only beat him by 2!

Not only is frank the best hitter on this team, he makes others around him better when he is in the lineup. Trying to get rid of him without fully knowing how his injury will effect his 2005 season is not smart, IMO.

SSN721
10-09-2004, 11:04 AM
As much as I like Kenny I can never understand the dislike he harbors toward Frank, is there some incident at one point where they started this bad relationship, because I know I was hearing about KWs feeling towards Frank being negative before this year and last. I just dont get it, he is the type of player that you can still build around. I want to see Frank retire in pinstripes, it would be terrible seeing him go because he still does have consistent production. I hope this surgery keeps him more reliable as far as not getting injured. I want him to be a part of this team for the next few years.

jabrch
10-09-2004, 11:15 AM
Here is the latest to answer your question. In Bob Foltman's story today on the surgery, in the Tribune, he talks about last year and the 'decoy' incident that Ken Williams requested. He also has this line. "The two got into a shouting match in the clubhouse and haven't spoken since."
So the player refuses to do what the GM asks him to do, There is animosity between the two of them (as there has been between Frank and nearly all of his managers) and this means there is a crusade to unload him? poo poo

He surely isn't untouchable to me - if any team comes up with a package of talented young (inexpensive) players who can produce now, or in the immediate future, I'd surely consider it. But this is a Frank thing. He doesn't want to do the things it takes to be a casual fan-favorite. He isn't a media darling. He isn't interwoven to the fabric of the city.

When he eventually leaves, he will be remembered as the greatest hitter in the history of the franchise - PERIOD. Walker Payton will be remembered as the greatest PLAYER in the franchise histor. He will be remembered as the childhood hero of nearly all of my generation. He will be remembered as a great man, a truely great citizen. Thus - you never heard any of this stuff about Payton and the Halas/McDopesky regimes. NEVER. This is who Thomas is. I have no sympathy for him - and I don't think this is a concerted effort by the media and KW to unload him. Williams would have loved nothing more than to see Frank Play a complete season. If he did, we may have been much closer than 9 out.

Deadguy
10-09-2004, 01:03 PM
So the player refuses to do what the GM asks him to do, There is animosity between the two of them (as there has been between Frank and nearly all of his managers) and this means there is a crusade to unload him? poo poo

What the hell are you talking about? Since when is KW a manager? Why the hell is the GM even asking a player to be a decoy when he is seriously injured? I've never even heard of this happening on another team. I also don't remember Thomas having any problems with Torborg, Lamont, Bevington, or Guillen.

He surely isn't untouchable to me - if any team comes up with a package of talented young (inexpensive) players who can produce now, or in the immediate future.Been living under a rock, or just totally clueless about the situation? Thomas won't leave via a trade, he will leave via free agency after his option is bought out after 2005. With his health issues and his 10 and 5 no trade clause, anyone who thinks that trading Thomas is an option is a moron.

Jjav829
10-09-2004, 02:00 PM
What the hell are you talking about? Since when is KW a manager? Why the hell is the GM even asking a player to be a decoy when he is seriously injured? I've never even heard of this happening on another team. I also don't remember Thomas having any problems with Torborg, Lamont, Bevington, or Guillen.

Been living under a rock, or just totally clueless about the situation? Thomas won't leave via a trade, he will leave via free agency after his option is bought out after 2005. With his health issues and his 10 and 5 no trade clause, anyone who thinks that trading Thomas is an option is a moron.Ahh yes, because of course Kenny knew exactly how serious the injury was at the time. I'm sure KW knew Frank would miss the better part of 9 months with rest and surgery. :rolleyes:

BTW, I always love the "if you don't believe what I believe, you're a moron" argument. What better way is there to get a point across? It's a classic. It doesn't require any support, you just accuse the person of being a moron and force them to either change their opinion, or accept being a moron. :rolleyes:

Brian26
10-09-2004, 02:10 PM
I haven't seen this mentioned and felt this was the right spot for it.

Lip
Go ahead and stir that pot, Lip.

Brian26
10-09-2004, 02:12 PM
Not only is frank the best hitter on this team, he makes others around him better when he is in the lineup. Trying to get rid of him without fully knowing how his injury will effect his 2005 season is not smart, IMO.
Yep, that sums it all up. This lineup without Frank, even at age 36, just isn't the same.

Deadguy
10-09-2004, 03:42 PM
Ahh yes, because of course Kenny knew exactly how serious the injury was at the time. BS. You obviously don't remember the events surrounding this time period. KW was the ONLY one who seemed to try to delude the public into believing that Thomas was anything but seriously injured. There was absolutely nothing from anyone else that would indicate that Thomas was capable of playing. Ozzie himself stated 2 days prior to that that he expected Thomas to go on the DL. Herm Schneider stated the same thing. No one else, including the press and anyone in the public who seemed to care about the situation believed anything other than the fact that Thomas was headed straight to the DL. KW was the ONLY one to go on the radio to try and publicly persuade the public and presumably the Mariners that Thomas was capable of playing. This of course is absolutely ludicrous, since Thomas hadn't played in 2 games, and if a DH isn't starting games, then why would any team with a scouting department expect him to make an appearance in a game? Ignorance must be bliss, in your case.

Then of course there's also the question of why the GM is trying to intervene in this situation.

BTW, I always love the "if you don't believe what I believe, you're a moron" argument. Then please spin a scenario where a 10 and 5 guy who will exercise his player option and who is coming off a serious injury will get traded.

Jjav829
10-09-2004, 04:12 PM
BS. You obviously don't remember the events surrounding this time period. KW was the ONLY one who seemed to try to delude the public into believing that Thomas was anything but seriously injured. There was absolutely nothing from anyone else that would indicate that Thomas was capable of playing. Ozzie himself stated 2 days prior to that that he expected Thomas to go on the DL. Herm Schneider stated the same thing. No one else, including the press and anyone in the public who seemed to care about the situation believed anything other than the fact that Thomas was headed straight to the DL. KW was the ONLY one to go on the radio to try and publicly persuade the public and presumably the Mariners that Thomas was capable of playing. This of course is absolutely ludicrous, since Thomas hadn't played in 2 games, and if a DH isn't starting games, then why would any team with a scouting department expect him to make an appearance in a game? Ignorance must be bliss, in your case.

Then of course there's also the question of why the GM is trying to intervene in this situation.
And Kenny knew Frank was "seriously injured", as you implied in your last post, how? Unless he had some way of seeing into the future, or knew some ultra secret information at that time, the general thought was that Frank's bone spurs were acting up. No one knew that "bone spurs" would turn into a stress fracture and eventually surgery on his ankle. I'm not arguing whether or not teams believed Frank would have played, I'm talking about your implied assertion that KW knew the seriousness of Frank's injury at the time.

Then please spin a scenario where a 10 and 5 guy who will exercise his player option and who is coming off a serious injury will get traded.
I don't spin scenarios. It's not my job. There's a chance that some team might want him, there's a chance that no team would want him. That wasn't the point of my post. It was to show the weakness of your argument.

- The Ignorant Moron responding to your post

RKMeibalane
10-09-2004, 05:53 PM
So the player refuses to do what the GM asks him to do, There is animosity between the two of them (as there has been between Frank and nearly all of his managers) and this means there is a crusade to unload him?
Nearly all of his managers? I don't think so. Frank doesn't get along with Kenny Williams, and he didn't get along with Jerry Manuel. That's two people. Frank has also played for Jeff Torborg, Gene LaMont, Terry Bevington, and Ozzie Guillen. And, in spite of what the media cotinues to say, I don't think the relationship between Thomas and Guillen is as bad as people believe. Frank seemed a lot happier this season than he ever did under Jerry Manuel. I don't think that would have been the case if he wasn't seeing eye-to-eye with Guillen. As for the other managers, Frank didn't have problems getting along with any of them. He didn't have any problems getting along with Ron Schueler when he was Sox GM.

It's fine that you don't like Frank. You're entitled to your own opinion. But please try to avoid saying things that aren't accurate. There's already enough bull**** floating around this forum as it is.

SoxEd
10-09-2004, 06:21 PM
But this is a Frank thing. He doesn't want to do the things it takes to be a casual fan-favorite. He isn't a media darling. He isn't interwoven to the fabric of the city.
Obviously, I will defer to your wisdom as to whether Frank is woven into the fabric of Chicago or not, but the issue of whether or not he does the things that are important to the casual fan are unimportant at this point - the franchise's money-men are more interested in selling season tickets - and that means doing things to connect with the long-term, committed Sox fan.

IMO, this means keeping Frank on - I mean, come on, long-term Sox fans love him.
He's a futre HOF-er who leads the franchise in HR's , RBI's, OBP, slugging & is only 11 runs behind Luke Appling for Sox runs scored.

He's a franchise player, a one-team guy. In the Majors, he's only ever played for the Palehose.
Long-term, committed fans know how rare such men are in the modern game.

Long-term, committed Sox fans are familiar with the media's attitude to the Sox, and so whether or not Frank is a 'media-darling' is also immaterial.

It's the long-term, committed fans that buy Season Tickets.
Thus, having Frank on the team shifts season-tickets, and he should be kept on as long as he can play to the league's DH averages, regardless of how the GM feels about him.

Casual fans can be attracted by things like the FUNdamentals area, or promotions on dogs/beer/pepsi products.

If Frank continues to put up numbers like this year's (and remains as popular with Sox fans), then anyone in the franchise considering ditching him should be taken aside and given a short session of I.T-style 'Percussive Maintenance' to the head.

What kind of trade package would you accept for him?
It'd have to be a pretty special one for me to accept losing him - the guy has given his whole career to the White Sox' cause, and could arguably be said to be the team's best offensive player ever (which I know you've acknowledged).

As long as he's healthy, I just can't see that it makes any sense to trade him - either for romantic (fans') reasons or for business (franchise accountants') reasons.

Lip Man 1
10-09-2004, 08:38 PM
Brian:

Rather then start a seperate thread when I saw this, I inserted it in this one since the discussion had turned as to why Williams has been trying to get rid of Frank. Obviously things got a might tense last season and I hadn't read or heard of this anyplace before.

Stop reading into things that aren't there simply because you don't like what I have to say.

Lip

oldcomiskey
10-09-2004, 08:52 PM
YAYYYYYY! THE SOX ARE TARGETING OBP!!!!!!!

NO MORE VALENTIN! NO MORE CREDE!

The Sox were at their best last June when Willie and Uribe were getting on base for the big boppers. If we had a hi-OBP leadoff man, our offense would be unstopabble.
uh huh--thats why Uribe had a bad time of it after pitchers figured him out--without that great april he hits LESS than jose. and I'm still not sold on pea-pod

gosox41
10-10-2004, 09:04 AM
So the player refuses to do what the GM asks him to do, There is animosity between the two of them (as there has been between Frank and nearly all of his managers) and this means there is a crusade to unload him? poo poo

He surely isn't untouchable to me - if any team comes up with a package of talented young (inexpensive) players who can produce now, or in the immediate future, I'd surely consider it. But this is a Frank thing. He doesn't want to do the things it takes to be a casual fan-favorite. He isn't a media darling. He isn't interwoven to the fabric of the city.

When he eventually leaves, he will be remembered as the greatest hitter in the history of the franchise - PERIOD. Walker Payton will be remembered as the greatest PLAYER in the franchise histor. He will be remembered as the childhood hero of nearly all of my generation. He will be remembered as a great man, a truely great citizen. Thus - you never heard any of this stuff about Payton and the Halas/McDopesky regimes. NEVER. This is who Thomas is. I have no sympathy for him - and I don't think this is a concerted effort by the media and KW to unload him. Williams would have loved nothing more than to see Frank Play a complete season. If he did, we may have been much closer than 9 out.
If no team wants to sign him as a FA, it's hard to imagine a team giving up a package of young players.


Bob

gosox41
10-10-2004, 09:05 AM
Ahh yes, because of course Kenny knew exactly how serious the injury was at the time. I'm sure KW knew Frank would miss the better part of 9 months with rest and surgery. :rolleyes:

BTW, I always love the "if you don't believe what I believe, you're a moron" argument. What better way is there to get a point across? It's a classic. It doesn't require any support, you just accuse the person of being a moron and force them to either change their opinion, or accept being a moron. :rolleyes:It goes right up there with:

'If you think <stated opinion> is true then you know less about basbeall then I thought.'


That's been showing up in many posts by a lot of people.

:)

Bob

TornLabrum
10-10-2004, 10:12 AM
It goes right up there with:

'If you think <stated opinion> is true then you know less about basbeall then I thought.'


That's been showing up in many posts by a lot of people.

:)

Bob
And don't forget the ever-popular, "If you say/believe that, you can't be a REAL Sox fan."

MisterB
10-10-2004, 01:01 PM
uh huh--thats why Uribe had a bad time of it after pitchers figured him out--without that great april he hits LESS than jose. and I'm still not sold on pea-pod
Without that great April, Uribe still hits .268/20 hr/64 rbi.

RKMeibalane
10-10-2004, 03:42 PM
And don't forget the ever-popular, "If you say/believe that, you can't be a REAL Sox fan."
What is a real Sox fan, anyway?

TornLabrum
10-10-2004, 05:33 PM
What is a real Sox fan, anyway?
For some, only people who agree with them.