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View Full Version : Thomas had ankle surgery today.


PavanoBeltran'05
10-06-2004, 06:30 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041006soxthomas,1,3078243.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Just like my man Beckett said, a procedure to clean up debris took place, and not the ankle fusion surgery. Good stuff. He'll likely be ready for April!

owensmouth
10-06-2004, 06:32 PM
Frank had surgery on his ankle today. Recovery time is up to six months.

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3064824

shagar69
10-06-2004, 06:32 PM
the best part was this: "Thomas and Barry Bonds are the only active players with a .300 career average, 400 home runs, 1,000 RBIs, 1,000 runs scored and 1,000 walks." cant understand why some people dont respect him

MRKARNO
10-06-2004, 06:35 PM
Much, much better than being unavailable to continue on with his Hall of Fame career.

:hurt

"The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated. "

DumpJerry
10-06-2004, 06:37 PM
Chanel 5 was pessimistic about next season for him. Then they said it was real, real sad the Flubs weren't in the playoffs today against the Braves because "the whole city was hoping for it" and then (this is the part that made me barf last October) "it would have been good for the city if they were in the playoffs."

The Flubs were in the playoffs last year. I have yet to see what "good" came to Chicago as a result. The Transit Authority wants to shut down, more guys were indicted at City Hall today and the Sox did not make the playoffs. What is "good" about all that???

GET WELL SOON FRANK, WE LOVE YA!:dtroll:

beckett21
10-06-2004, 06:55 PM
Here's the link from the Sox official website:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_press_release.jsp?ymd=20041006&content_id=885278&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp

I'm going to refrain from commenting further until I see a little more specific info. Assuming the screws were put in the navicular, this sounds like good news to me. These injuries are still slow in healing nonetheless, and 6 months or more is not unreasonable.

The tarsal navicular is not technically part of the ankle, so there is a matter of semantics involved here. It is actually in the midfoot, specifically the arch of the foot. I just don't know why they keep referring to it as the ankle. His ankle has been a problem in the past, so this confounds the issue. I will just assume for the sake of argument that they are referring to the navicular until I see something to the contrary. But I do not want to offer an opinion as to prognosis right now because I don't know enough about what they specifically did.

batmanZoSo
10-06-2004, 07:41 PM
Chanel 5 was pessimistic about next season for him. Then they said it was real, real sad the Flubs weren't in the playoffs today against the Braves because "the whole city was hoping for it" and then (this is the part that made me barf last October) "it would have been good for the city if they were in the playoffs."

The Flubs were in the playoffs last year. I have yet to see what "good" came to Chicago as a result. The Transit Authority wants to shut down, more guys were indicted at City Hall today and the Sox did not make the playoffs. What is "good" about all that???

What a steaming pile of dinosaur dung. Good for the city my arse. If it IS good for the city, then I say F### the city. It's good for cub fans if the cubs make the playoffs...that's it. The rest of us don't give a rat's arse. Please specify that from now on, stupid media. Even if it was "good for the city," what is this some fledgling little backwater borough we live in? This is the number 3 metropolis in the country, we don't need baseball playoffs to legitimize our existence as a city.




SHAGAR69: the best part was this: "Thomas and Barry Bonds are the only active players with a .300 career average, 400 home runs, 1,000 RBIs, 1,000 runs scored and 1,000 walks." cant understand why some people dont respect him

Thomas is "the only" or "one of a select few" in a lot of things and gets zero recognition. He holds the number 2 on-base percentage ALL TIME for right handers. I mean come on...the guy's one of the greatest to ever swing a bat. Please let this recovery go right........

PavanoBeltran'05
10-06-2004, 08:30 PM
Beckett...what's the expected post op recovery for a traditional navicular surgery?? 4-5 months?

beckett21
10-06-2004, 08:43 PM
Beckett...what's the expected post op recovery for a traditional navicular surgery?? 4-5 months?
According to recent literature, anywhere from 3 to 7 months roughly, depending upon the location of the fracture. Average return to activity of 4 months.

I think a 4 to 6 month timetable is fairly reasonable and accurate for such a procedure.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2004, 09:35 PM
Which means Frank is probably going to get a late start on spring training (when he needs all the work he can get since he missed so much time last year) and could, mind you could, miss the start of the season arriving back in May or even June.

Great.....

Beck, just wondering...why in your opinion was this surgery even needed. He broke the foot in July. It's now October and it STILL wasn't healed? What does that say? and why did the Sox wait four months to start with if they had indications say in September that it wasn't healing properly. (that's an assumption on my part, but why have surgery if the bone was healing in the first place.)

Appreciate your time on this one.

Lip

Lip

beckett21
10-06-2004, 10:59 PM
Beck, just wondering...why in your opinion was this surgery even needed. He broke the foot in July. It's now October and it STILL wasn't healed? What does that say? and why did the Sox wait four months to start with if they had indications say in September that it wasn't healing properly. (that's an assumption on my part, but why have surgery if the bone was healing in the first place.)

Appreciate your time on this one.

Lip

LipLip,

Conservative treatment is generally attempted first in these cases. You do not know whether or not they are going to heal on their own until you actually put the time in. Meaning, you need to invest the requisite healing time first before jumping into surgery. No way to accurately predict this. You simply have to wait and see--no way to rush time.

Fractures which do not heal in *normal* time (12 weeks or more, depending on the location of fracture and the particular bone involved) are considered either a *delayed union* or a *nonunion*. This is a biological process and cannot be blamed on physician error or misdiagnosis--certain types of fractures heal better than others, and vise-versa. Delayed or nonunion are common complications of this type of fracture, and again there is no way to know this until after the fact. Only time will tell (pardon the cliche').

After 8 or so weeks of nonweightbearing/casting, the patient is re-examined. As was done in this case if you recall. If there is still pain, then you re-cast for another period of time, usually 6 to 8 more weeks. Then you re-evaluate again. Between 12 to 16 weeks is when you make the determination of whether or not surgery is indicated. However there is no absolute steadfast rule, it's not *cookbook medicine*. With strictly conservative treatment, these fractures, which are notoriously slow healers, may take upwards of 8 months to heal according to the literature.

If Frank were not a professional athlete, he may have continued with a conservative treatment course or he may have elected surgery. Conservative treatment could continue for 6 months or more. At this stage of the game it was obviously determined that debridement of the nonunion with compressive internal fixation was the best course of action to give him the best chance to play next year. They waited long enough, and it obviously must not have been healing. Not worth gambling and it not healing still after 6 months in a cast.

There is no one to blame here, it's just one of the complications that goes along with this injury. I absolutely agree with the treatment course 100%. The docs in this case went by the book. In my opinion, operative treatment was indicated at this time because he would have already had the requisite three to four months of conservative treatment without improvement. Surgery still does not provide any guarantees, but the chances of healing are far better now with the bone graft and screws in place. As for doing the surgery earlier, there would have been no way to know for sure whether or not surgery was needed or could have possibly been avoided. It may have been unnecessary. Unfortunately, it was necessary. But the conservative course of care must be performed first.

Sorry I don't have a link to post; not sure if my reference text is available online or not, but I can site my reference for you if you are interested:

Lee, S, Anderson RB. Stress Fractures of the Tarsal Navicular. Foot and Ankle Clinics of North America, Vol. 9, No. 1, p. 85-104. (March 2004 issue edited by Mark S. Myerson, MD)

This is the most current literature I had at my disposal, and I find it to be quite accurate in regards to this particular injury.

FarWestChicago
10-06-2004, 11:07 PM
There is no one to blame here, it's just one of the complications that goes along with this injury. I absolutely agree with the treatment course 100%.You just ruined Lip's night. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

beckett21
10-06-2004, 11:08 PM
You just ruined Lip's night. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
I tried my best...:redneck

pudge
10-07-2004, 01:17 AM
You just ruined Lip's night. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Classic!!

SSN721
10-07-2004, 07:54 AM
You just ruined Lip's night. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I am sure Lip will find something else to source to find some blame somehow. Thanks alot for the info Beck, it is nice having a resident expert to explain this beyond the basic and sometimes misguided news we get straight from reporters. :smile:

CarlosMay'sThumb
10-07-2004, 08:34 AM
I hope that KW assumes that Frank will either not be back this year at all or will come back significantly hampered and much less effective. This is a big guy who puts alot of stress on that foot and is in his late 30s.

It seems to me that it is unlikely that Frank will be the same player he was in the mid 90s ever again. That's not to say he wont be a "good" player. His high on base percentage is great, but if he can't run that takes away somewhat from his value. Also, it would be nice to have a DH who could play some defense, and if his foot is bothering him or limits his mobility, he'll be even more of a liability at first than before.

I would still look for somebody to replace him this year.

Foulke29
10-07-2004, 08:46 AM
Can anyone check a swing better than Big Frank?

Foulke29
10-07-2004, 08:50 AM
I hope that KW assumes that Frank will either not be back this year at all or will come back significantly hampered and much less effective. This is a big guy who puts alot of stress on that foot and is in his late 30s.

It seems to me that it is unlikely that Frank will be the same player he was in the mid 90s ever again. That's not to say he wont be a "good" player. His high on base percentage is great, but if he can't run that takes away somewhat from his value. Also, it would be nice to have a DH who could play some defense, and if his foot is bothering him or limits his mobility, he'll be even more of a liability at first than before.

I would still look for somebody to replace him this year.
:hurt Don't doubt me dude! Robin Ventura doubted me once --- once, and I called my buddy Nolan Ryan.

:nolanventura

Mickster
10-07-2004, 10:10 AM
I am sure Lip will find something else to source to find some blame somehow. Thanks alot for the info Beck, it is nice having a resident expert to explain this beyond the basic and sometimes misguided news we get straight from reporters. :smile:
Yeah, but the real information regarding Hurt will come from Dan Roan! :D:

Jerome
10-07-2004, 10:39 AM
the best part was this: "Thomas and Barry Bonds are the only active players with a .300 career average, 400 home runs, 1,000 RBIs, 1,000 runs scored and 1,000 walks." cant understand why some people dont respect him



He's old, he's a selfish hitter, he's a base-clogger, he takes too many walks, hs defense at first sucks, and he's a clubhouse cancer.

beckett21
10-07-2004, 11:01 AM
I am sure Lip will find something else to source to find some blame somehow. Thanks alot for the info Beck, it is nice having a resident expert to explain this beyond the basic and sometimes misguided news we get straight from reporters. :smile:
I'm happy to do what I can with what I am given. When conflicting reports start flying around, it's hard to accurately predict exactly what's going on sometimes since all I can do is go by what the media feeds us. I'll always do my best and give the appropriate disclaimers when necessary.

:cool:

Lip Man 1
10-07-2004, 11:29 AM
SSN says: "I am sure Lip will find something else to source to find some blame somehow."

Well SSN since you commented I found this line out of the Sun Times story today by Doug Padilla, to be VERY interesting...

"At that time (mid September), Schneider said it looked as if Thomas would be able to recover without surgery."

I'm sure one of these days the Sox medical staff will get a diagnosis right. After all even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while.

and Beck thanks for your insight. I appreciate the time.

Lip

Flight #24
10-07-2004, 11:38 AM
SSN says: "I am sure Lip will find something else to source to find some blame somehow."

Well SSN since you commented I found this line out of the Sun Times story today by Doug Padilla, to be VERY interesting...

"At that time (mid September), Schneider said it looked as if Thomas would be able to recover without surgery."

I'm sure one of these days the Sox medical staff will get a diagnosis right. After all even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while.

and Beck thanks for your insight. I appreciate the time.

Lip
Go ahead Lip, slam the guy who's acknowledged to be one of, if not the #1 trainer in baseball, despite the course of treatment being 100% accurate, there being no real way to know/diagnose any different course of action, and the fact that in all likelihood, Hermie was just trying not to create a panic among the fan base.

Some things never change.

beckett21
10-07-2004, 11:39 AM
SSN says: "I am sure Lip will find something else to source to find some blame somehow."

Well SSN since you commented I found this line out of the Sun Times story today by Doug Padilla, to be VERY interesting...

"At that time (mid September), Schneider said it looked as if Thomas would be able to recover without surgery."

I'm sure one of these days the Sox medical staff will get a diagnosis right. After all even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while.

and Beck thanks for your insight. I appreciate the time.

LipLip,

You're welcome for the insight, but apparently I wasted my time.

I guess there is just no way to get you to understand that you can't rush healing. The whole thing about delayed healing and biological processeses and all fractures not being created equal and whatnot seems to be lost on you.

There was no misdiagnosis here. As a matter of fact, this statement actually defends the *apparent* (in your eyes) delay in surgical intervention.

But you can contiune to believe whatever you want.

pinwheels3530
10-07-2004, 11:44 AM
:moron " Frank Thomas is no Sammy Sosa......I don't care is Sammy got caught with a corked bat, Thomas is the evil one in Chicago baseball my words are gospel people!!!!"

Lip Man 1
10-07-2004, 12:06 PM
Folks:

All I know is that comments from Sox personnel, from the field manager to Herm keep showing up in the papers and what they are saying always seems to be incorrect. It's a fact. You can't deny the quotes in the papers.

My opinion is not a personal slam as much as it is a request, a plea, for those individuals to simply say 'no comment' and direct all medical questions to the doctors themselves. Manager Gandhi is not a doctor, Herm is a trainer... not a doctor. Stop confusing, muddying up the medical issues by commenting. Let one individual (the physician) do the talking and one person alone. it makes it very difficult for fans to have a reasonable idea of what's happening when so many people in the organization are commenting on issues they have no real understanding of.

That's my point. If I come across other wise on the physicians issue it's because of frustration over these issues.

Flight, I don't know about you but when Manager Gandhi says 'it's a forearm strain and he'll only miss a couple of starts,' I panic when ten days later Cal Eldred is NOT on the mound and suddenly you read reports about something being wrong with his elbow. If Gandhi has just shut up, that 'panic' would have never occurred would it?

Lip

Mickster
10-07-2004, 12:23 PM
Flight, I don't know about you but when Manager Gandhi says 'it's a forearm strain and he'll only miss a couple of starts,' I panic when ten days later Cal Eldred is NOT on the mound and suddenly you read reports about something being wrong with his elbow. If Gandhi has just shut up, that 'panic' would have never occured would it?
You certainly have the choice to panic or not.

Could it be that Eldred walks off the mound and is in the clubhouse later stating "Jerry, it's just a strained muscle in my forearm...I'll need a couple of days off."

The next day Manuel is asked about Eldred and repeates what is told to him.

A week later, things don't get better, Cal goes to the doctor and they discover that it is his elbow.

Does this scenario even seem plausible? Why does everything always have to be a freakin' conspiracy.:(:

beckett21
10-07-2004, 12:32 PM
Folks:

All I know is that comments from Sox personnel, from the field manager to Herm keep showing up in the papers and what they are saying always seems to be incorrect. It's a fact. You can't deny the quotes in the papers.

My opinion is not a personal slam as much as it is a request, a plea, for those individuals to simply say 'no comment' and direct all medical questions to the doctors themselves. Manager Gandhi is not a doctor, Herm is a trainer... not a doctor. Stop confusing, muddying up the medical issues by commenting. Let one individual (the physician) do the talking and one person alone. it makes it very difficult for fans to have a reasonable idea of what's happening when so many people in the organization are commenting on issues they have no real understanding of.

That's my point. If I come across other wise on the physicians issue it's because of frustration over these issues.

Flight, I don't know about you but when Manager Gandhi says 'it's a forearm strain and he'll only miss a couple of starts,' I panic when ten days later Cal Eldred is NOT on the mound and suddenly you read reports about something being wrong with his elbow. If Gandhi has just shut up, that 'panic' would have never occurred would it?

LipTo a point, I agree with you Lip. To a point. The diagnoses/prognoses should come directly from the doctors. However you don't seem to believe anything they say either, so I don't know what the difference to you would be.

For everyone from the GM to the Mgr. to the batboy to be weighing in with their *medical opinions*, I do agree that they should just leave well enough alone and shut up. Let's also remember we live in the era of HIPPA, where health information is protected BY LAW and doctors just cannot go around shooting their yaps off about their patients. It's that little form you have to sign now before you see the doctor after you read that 18-something-page manual on your privacy rights. Just because a player is a public figure does not give Joe Public the right to know that they just had some hemmorhoids removed. Health information is private; I suspect you like to keep your matters private, professional athletes deserve the same courtesy.

Let's not give the media a free pass here, either. They have to try to stir things up to sell papers and to drum up viewers. But I know that they would never ever take anything out of context. :rolleyes:

In this day of instant information/instant gratification, players can hardly make a bowel movement without some media outlet somewhere reporting it. It is the bloodlust of the media which fuels the fire. As a member of the media yourself, you must know what sells to the public. I am not questioning your personal integrity or that of your profession per se, but sensationalism has gone over the top with today's media. IMO.

As far as Cal Eldred goes, he was a miracle of modern medicine in his own right. The guy's arm was held together with krazyglue and rubberbands to begin with before he came to the Sox. Can we please stop talking about him now? Poor example.

steff
10-07-2004, 12:36 PM
Why does everything always have to be a freakin' conspiracy.:(:


Because if it's not then it means that the Sox might actually be honest, unlike the Northsiders..

And heaven for bid Big Bad Jerry and Company be honest...

FarWestChicago
10-07-2004, 01:07 PM
Why does everything always have to be a freakin' conspiracy.:(:It's just Lip's personal coping mechanism. I still wish he would go for happy pills. it would be easier on the rest of us. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/eek.gif

soltrain21
10-07-2004, 01:11 PM
Can anyone check a swing better than Big Frank?



I said to my friend that Frank had the best check swing in baseball. He laughed at me and said that was the dumbest thing he has ever heard. 2 check swings later he went yard for a 3 run homer.

Jjav829
10-07-2004, 01:17 PM
Can anyone check a swing better than Big Frank?
Moises Alou. Just ask him. :smile:

minastirith67
10-07-2004, 01:19 PM
:roflmao: Moises Alou. Just ask him. :smile:

gosox41
10-07-2004, 01:59 PM
Because if it's not then it means that the Sox might actually be honest, unlike the Northsiders..

And heaven for bid Big Bad Jerry and Company be honest...
I think if we go back far enough we can tie JR in to the Kennedy assassination and Marilyn Monroe's suicide. Afterall, JR was in the country when they died....



Bob

RKMeibalane
10-07-2004, 02:48 PM
SSN says: "I am sure Lip will find something else to source to find some blame somehow."

Well SSN since you commented I found this line out of the Sun Times story today by Doug Padilla, to be VERY interesting...

"At that time (mid September), Schneider said it looked as if Thomas would be able to recover without surgery."

I'm sure one of these days the Sox medical staff will get a diagnosis right. After all even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while.

and Beck thanks for your insight. I appreciate the time.

Lip
I am sick and tired of you bashing physicians over this situation, Lip. Nothing was done wrong here. The Sox medical staff elected to give the injury time to heal on its own- which, as Beckett is normal procedure in most cases. Based on their findings in September, it appeared as though the injury would heal, even without surgery. That turned out not to be the case, but that doesn't mean anyone made a mistake.

Nellie_Fox
10-07-2004, 03:34 PM
I am sick and tired of you bashing physicians over this situation, Lip. Nothing was done wrong here. The Sox medical staff elected to give the injury time to heal on its own- which, as Beckett is normal procedure in most cases. Based on their findings in September, it appeared as though the injury would heal, even without surgery. That turned out not to be the case, but that doesn't mean anyone made a mistake.With Lip, anything remotely connected to Sox management is, by definition, incompetent.

I've had a fractured carpal navicular. The standard treatment is to see if they heal on their own. Mine took 13 weeks before it was even healed enough to go without a cast, and even then I had to be careful with it. Those that don't heal on their own require surgery. The physician cannot know which you are until time passes. The fact that Frank's eventually required surgery does not mean it was handled improperly in the first place.

PavanoBeltran'05
10-07-2004, 06:06 PM
With Lip, anything remotely connected to Sox management is, by definition, incompetent.

I've had a fractured carpal navicular. The standard treatment is to see if they heal on their own. Mine took 13 weeks before it was even healed enough to go without a cast, and even then I had to be careful with it. Those that don't heal on their own require surgery. The physician cannot know which you are until time passes. The fact that Frank's eventually required surgery does not mean it was handled improperly in the first place.
That is also the standard protocol for these types of fractures in the tarsal area, as well. They're one of those bones that can be taken care of with rest.

beckett21
10-07-2004, 06:19 PM
I've had a fractured carpal navicular. The standard treatment is to see if they heal on their own. Mine took 13 weeks before it was even healed enough to go without a cast, and even then I had to be careful with it. Those that don't heal on their own require surgery. The physician cannot know which you are until time passes. The fact that Frank's eventually required surgery does not mean it was handled improperly in the first place.
Perfect example.

Not to mention the fact that Frank is bearing 260+ lbs. on his foot, and pushing off with it as well.

munchman33
10-07-2004, 06:53 PM
I guess all of this also gives credance to Frank's not wanting to walk around the dugout holding a bat for Kenny Williams. Perhaps he was told to stay off it entirely.

Lip Man 1
10-07-2004, 08:12 PM
Fair enough gang, I've stated my opinion on the matter and will not broach the subject again.

History will judge how all these injuries turn out and why they seem to be more complicated then normal.

We'll leave it at that.

:smile:

Lip