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PavanoBeltran'05
10-04-2004, 11:48 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041004downey,1,5052291.column?coll=cs-whitesox-utility

Boy...he gets mean on some of these points. True on most, though.

cbrownson13
10-05-2004, 01:05 AM
Yeah, he makes some decent points. However, a few are a little tainted. Like the stat about walking less and striking out more than last year. I am sure that has a lot to do with a guy that draws a 100+ walks being out of the lineup since before the All-Star break. Not to mention Magglio.

Unregistered
10-05-2004, 01:24 AM
Yeah, he makes some decent points. However, a few are a little tainted. Like the stat about walking less and striking out more than last year. I am sure that has a lot to do with a guy that draws a 100+ walks being out of the lineup since before the All-Star break. Not to mention Magglio. Mike Downey must be a little light headed from writing an article that isn't about the Cubs. The guy obviously has no interest in the Sox and is just regurgitating a bunch of stats sitting in front of him. They should stick him with the Cubs beat exclusively and be done with it, because his fluff pieces on the North Side team are all he's good at writing.

soxtalker
10-05-2004, 07:34 AM
Mike Downey must be a little light headed from writing an article that isn't about the Cubs. The guy obviously has no interest in the Sox and is just regurgitating a bunch of stats sitting in front of him. They should stick him with the Cubs beat exclusively and be done with it, because his fluff pieces on the North Side team are all he's good at writing.

What do you mean "obviously no interest in the Sox"? He essentially says that he was a Sox fan as a kid.

This is a very good article. Most of the Sox fans on WSI like to pride themselves on not being like Cub fans who just cheer for the team no matter what. This article was highly critical of the organization and the players. He even brought up a couple of points that we don't hear too much about any more (e.g., Ozzie relying upon Koch and Loaiza far too long). I doubt that many Sox fans will like everything he said. (I personally can live with Frank's personality quirks, as long as he gets on base almost half the time.) If he says something I don't like, at least he made me look at the issue from a different viewpoint. But this sounded like a guy who cared very much about the Sox.

Cubbiesuck13
10-05-2004, 07:45 AM
What do you mean "obviously no interest in the Sox"? He essentially says that he was a Sox fan as a kid.

This is a very good article. Most of the Sox fans on WSI like to pride themselves on not being like Cub fans who just cheer for the team no matter what. This article was highly critical of the organization and the players. He even brought up a couple of points that we don't hear too much about any more (e.g., Ozzie relying upon Koch and Loaiza far too long). I doubt that many Sox fans will like everything he said. (I personally can live with Frank's personality quirks, as long as he gets on base almost half the time.) If he says something I don't like, at least he made me look at the issue from a different viewpoint. But this sounded like a guy who cared very much about the Sox.

Many of his so called points don't make sense to anyone who watched the season progress. Is it the Oz's fault that he had Esteban most of the year? I could see him taking the blame for pitching Kotch but not E-Lo. And what was with bringing up the Oz's relationship with Frank again. If I recall correctly, they didn't have one problem this year. Well I could go on but if anyone who acually paid attention to the sox the year would be able to see how ignorant this article is.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-05-2004, 08:02 AM
Downey obviously needs to spend some quality time at WSI. If he thinks the Sox Fans around here are sentimental about keeping their favorite ballplayers, he hasn't spent enough time reading WSI's threads.

Sentimental bull**** is for Lovable Loserville.

I can't think of a single Sox ballplayer who hasn't got some Sox Fan around here begging him to get traded. Some of these Sox Fans are complete goofs... but that's another story.
:cool:

ChiSoxBobette
10-05-2004, 08:44 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041004downey,1,5052291.column?coll=cs-whitesox-utility

Boy...he gets mean on some of these points. True on most, though.
He's just another scrub loving douche bag who is all upset that the the NL did'nt roll-over for his beloved scrubs. What does he know about White Sox baseball how many articles did the guy write about the White Sox during the year. Now that the scrubs are falling apart we're going to write about how Frank Thomas is'nt a good team player and Ozzie is'nt a good manager blah.blah,blah just a cubloving tribune writers way of taking the heat off of the scrubs.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-05-2004, 08:50 AM
He's just another scrub loving douche bag who is all upset that the the NL did'nt roll-over for his beloved scrubs. What does he know about White Sox baseball how many articles did the guy write about the White Sox during the year. Now that the scrubs are falling apart we're going to write about how Frank Thomas is'nt a good team player and Ozzie is'nt a good manager blah.blah,blah just a cubloving tribune writers way of taking the heat off of the scrubs.
I have it on solid authority that Downey is a Sox Fan.

Like everyone else in the Chicago media, Downey must write about the Cubs because that's what the overwhelming majority of his audience wants to read about. This is all about newspaper circulation and TV/radio ratings. Don't ever kid yourself otherwise.

The Sox are second banana in this town and our owner says "it's always been a Cubs town."

Now, who is full of ****? Downey or Reinsdorf?

voodoochile
10-05-2004, 08:54 AM
Now, who is full of ****? Downey or Reinsdorf?[Horshack voice]Oooo... Ooooo... Mr. Kotter... Mr. Kotter... I know...[/Horshack voice]

:D:

mweflen
10-05-2004, 09:28 AM
I can't bring myself to disagree with many of the points Downey raises, with the exception of the aforementioned BB/SO ratio: indeed - taking Thomas's 100-plus BB's out of the mix and adding Borchard's 57, Davis' 49 and Valentin's career high 139, skews the numbers a tad.

I find his strongest point Ozzie not acknowledging duds sooner. Even during his .250 stretch, Uribe would have been far more productive than Willie or Jose. (More ribbies than the weak-hitting Harris, better average than the poppy Jose) Or Crede, for that matter.

Even with their leaden defense, based on their combined numbers in limited ABs, Gload or Perez would have been much better offensive OF's than Borchard (you know what, I don't CARE if we "need" to give him an extended look in the bigs. I want to win NOW, not watch some $5m scrub bat .170.)

And who could not see that Koch was spiraling downward pretty early in the year? "Shingo time" was in April and May, not in August and out of contention.

Ozzie has not proven himself superior to Ghandi in any particular way besides flamboyancy - which is not a bad thing, because he is not Manuel's inferior in any particular way, either.

As far as Downey goes, he is pretty dead on about Frank and Maggs. It is obvious that Downey is a Sox fan who is hurt a little bit by Frank's aloofness and Magg's money-grubbing. Who among us isn't?

soxtalker
10-05-2004, 09:32 AM
Downey obviously needs to spend some quality time at WSI. If he thinks the Sox Fans around here are sentimental about keeping their favorite ballplayers, he hasn't spent enough time reading WSI's threads.

Sentimental bull**** is for Lovable Loserville.

I can't think of a single Sox ballplayer who hasn't got some Sox Fan around here begging him to get traded. Some of these Sox Fans are complete goofs... but that's another story.
:cool:

Well, it's true that there have been plenty of WSI members calling for trades and breaking up the team. But there have also been numerous postings by fans not wanting to see Paulie, Carlos, etc. traded.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-05-2004, 09:39 AM
Well, it's true that there have been plenty of WSI members calling for trades and breaking up the team. But there have also been numerous postings by fans not wanting to see Paulie, Carlos, etc. traded.Yup. We're a diverse bunch.
:cool:

I think last week's front-page WSI poll summed it up best. The overwhelming majority of Sox Fans believe their #1 loyalty is to the pursuit of a championship. We may disagree how to get there, but there is very little toleration for unquestioned loyalty to the players or the front office.

I *guarantee* the results would be very different if Lovable Loserville was similarly polled. That's a distinction Downey fails to make. In fact his column leads his readers to the opposite conclusion. And that's why Downey doesn't have a clue about Sox Fans -- or at least the ones posting at WSI.

Hangar18
10-05-2004, 10:19 AM
The Sox are second banana in this town and our owner says "it's always been a Cubs town."

Now, who is full of ****? Downey or Reinsdorf?
PHG......I'll take BS OWNERS for $500

(Rings Buzzer) Who is Jerry Reinsdorf!

gosox41
10-05-2004, 10:48 AM
I have it on solid authority that Downey is a Sox Fan.

Like everyone else in the Chicago media, Downey must write about the Cubs because that's what the overwhelming majority of his audience wants to read about. This is all about newspaper circulation and TV/radio ratings. Don't ever kid yourself otherwise.

The Sox are second banana in this town and our owner says "it's always been a Cubs town."

Now, who is full of ****? Downey or Reinsdorf?
The Sox may be the second team in this town, but it would help if Downey got his facts right. A little research never hurt anybody.


Bob

Dan H
10-05-2004, 10:51 AM
Downey was right in at least aspect: The Sox have problems of their own and these problems have not received much attention because of the circus on the North Side.

However, I looked at this column as another Jerry Manuel-Jerry Reinsdorf loving piece. It is true that the Sox needed more than just bring Guillen aboard, but that wasn't Guillen's fault. And his swipe at Ordoenz is the White Sox propaganda that Ordonez was unreasonable and didn't want to stay in Chicago.

Downey may be a White Sox fan, but this column was mostly off base. Like most of his stuff.

LVSoxFan
10-05-2004, 11:15 AM
I dunno--I don't mind listening to critical voices about the Sox, because I want to win.

This team should have (granted, with Mags and Frank) been killing everybody the last 3-4 years, and it's not. We should be where the Twins are right now. We should be dominating the division on a regular basis.

He's right in that with the major flameout Cubs--and all this post-failure tabloid drama (bye Sammy!)--dominating the headlines, the Sox quietly slipped away. Let's face the reality--we were out of it back in July basically, so we failed even moreso than the Cubs, who at least kept in it until their New and Exciting 2004 Version of Choke, two weeks out.

I agree with the person who said he's tired of seeing Joe Borchard, a $5M/year scrub batting .170. Look, there's no reason not to keep Uribe, Perez, Lee, Rowand, Gload. Buehrle, Contreras and Garcia aren't going anywhere. Garland, unfortunately, isn't either, if only because nobody's going to want him. Harris I'd give one more season to get on with it already; there's no reason that guy shouldn't be able to bunt, or steal bases.

Everybody else though (save for Shingo)? Fair game. People need to stop thinking World Series until we can win our division, and that means slapping down the Twins and not inexplicably losing to the Tigers all the time. Beyond that, being completely unable to win out West is another bizarre streak that needs to be broken. *** is with our Oakland record?

The writer inadvertently points out something somebody else has said: he's saying Ozzie ain't much better than Manuel in the end, for all his "enthusiasm". Well, if the same team can't get it done under Manuel and Ozzie, that tells me the manager ain't the problem.

mweflen
10-05-2004, 11:34 AM
I agree with the person who said he's tired of seeing Joe Borchard, a $5M/year scrub batting .170.

The writer inadvertently points out something somebody else has said: he's saying Ozzie ain't much better than Manuel in the end, for all his "enthusiasm". Well, if the same team can't get it done under Manuel and Ozzie, that tells me the manager ain't the problem.
Agreed! The coach obviously isn't the pressing issue. There's something about one or more of these players. I don't know if it's lack of talent (show us the $$$ Jerry!), lack of heart ("Meet the Parents"), lack of proper mentality (too laid back Garland, too uptight Crede) or what.

BTW, Borchard got a $5m signing bonus. We can thank our lucky stars he doesn't make $5m per year!

fuzzy_patters
10-05-2004, 11:46 AM
I am as disappointed in the Sox as anybody, but Downey was way off base a few times in this article.

Nevertheless, we had to endure month after month of comments about what wondrous things Ozzie Guillen was doing in his first year as manager. To which I kept asking: "Like what?"

Jerry Manuel did not have a losing season with the Sox in the 2000s. In his last year in charge, Manuel's club went 86-76. Guillen's just went 83-79.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Manual never had to manage the Sox without Frank and Magglio for half a season. Considering that only one Jerry Manual managed team won over 90 games, it is not unreasonable to believe that all but one of his teams would have had losing records without Frank and Maggs. Of course, Downey isn't afraid to let the facts get in the way of his thesis.

Were pitchers used more wisely? No. By the time Guillen figured out that Esteban Loiaza and Billy Koch were shells of their previous selves, many a game was blown.

Joe Crede and Jose Valentin were trotted out to the left side of the infield day after day. Between them, they batted 940 times. They had 214 hits. They struck out 220 times.

Who does Downey suggest Ozzie should have played in place of these guys? It is one thing to criticize the manager for playing inferior players when there are superior players behind them, but Kenny Williams did not give Ozzie those kinds of options. Perhaps Downey would have preferred Ozzie to pitch Diaz in Loaiza's spot or play Bobby Smith in Crede's spot, but I am pretty sure that those moves would not have made the White Sox a better team.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-05-2004, 12:47 PM
I am as disappointed in the Sox as anybody, but Downey was way off base a few times in this article....
Great points, Fuzzy. Comparing the '04 Sox to the '03 Sox and then drawing the conclusion that Jerry Manuel was just fine as Sox manager is nothing less than a big load of hooey.

Downey didn't do his homework, he got paid for submitting sloppy work, and the Cubune published it. Who's surprised?

maurice
10-05-2004, 12:51 PM
I disagree that the article is "not about the cubs." The headline is "Problems aren't limted to North Side." One can envision the editors assigning their most fervent pro-cub writer to take some heat off the cubs by applying some heat to the Sox. Along the same lines, a Sox-related article by the ever incompetent (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=34342&highlight=foltman) Bob Foltman (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041004soxahead.story) begins: "The right-field position isn't controversy-free for the White Sox either."

Then again, maybe the cubs' troubles are just a coincidence, and the Trib suddenly decided to become "fair and balanced."

ChiSoxBobette
10-05-2004, 02:27 PM
[QUOTE=PaleHoseGeorge]I have it on solid authority that Downey is a Sox Fan.

Like everyone else in the Chicago media, Downey must write about the Cubs because that's what the overwhelming majority of his audience wants to read about. This is all about newspaper circulation and TV/radio ratings. Don't ever kid yourself otherwise.

The Sox are second banana in this town and our owner says "it's always been a Cubs town."

Now, who is full of ****? Downey or Reinsdorf?[/QUOTE

I've never read anything about the White Sox in this guys colum until now, so why is that ,my opinion, just to take the heat off the scrubs. If he's a White Sox fan he sure does'nt show it from his colums, I don't beleive the guy is a Sox fan or cares to be open minded when it come to the White Sox. Also the guy is supposed to be a sports columnist so why would he care what the overwhelming majority of the tribune is if theres a story then he should write it and right now the story should be the biggest choke since 1969 of the 2004 scrubs so we read about the White Sox who by the way were ripped by the sports media when our baseball people defended our team when we fell out of it by saying we lost Maggs & Frank but now what am I reading in the trib & times stories about how the scrubs had all of those injuries during the year which hurt thier team. As far as our owner I think to many people on this site and the other web-site are obsessed with someone who they and myself have no control over, yeah I'm sure you're going to say we have control over JR by not going to White Sox games ,and this is also my opinion, anyone who preaches that is a closet scrub fan. Like I said if Mike Downey is a White Sox fan I have'nt read anything positive about the White Sox(and there was several positive things about this year)in the guys colum.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-05-2004, 02:41 PM
I've never read anything about the White Sox in this guys colum until now, so why is that ,my opinion, just to take the heat off the scrubs. If he's a White Sox fan he sure does'nt show it from his colums, I don't beleive the guy is a Sox fan or cares to be open minded when it come to the White Sox. Also the guy is supposed to be a sports columnist so why would he care what the overwhelming majority of the tribune is if theres a story then he should write it and right now the story should be the biggest choke since 1969 of the 2004 scrubs so we read about the White Sox who by the way were ripped by the sports media when our baseball people defended our team when we fell out of it by saying we lost Maggs & Frank but now what am I reading in the trib & times stories about how the scrubs had all of those injuries during the year which hurt thier team. As far as our owner I think to many people on this site and the other web-site are obsessed with someone who they and myself have no control over, yeah I'm sure you're going to say we have control over JR by not going to White Sox games ,and this is also my opinion, anyone who preaches that is a closet scrub fan. Like I said if Mike Downey is a White Sox fan I have'nt read anything positive about the White Sox(and there was several positive things about this year)in the guys colum.
Your what hurts?
:?:

PavanoBeltran'05
10-05-2004, 04:19 PM
Great points, Fuzzy. Comparing the '04 Sox to the '03 Sox and then drawing the conclusion that Jerry Manuel was just fine as Sox manager is nothing less than a big load of hooey.

Downey didn't do his homework, he got paid for submitting sloppy work, and the Cubune published it. Who's surprised?Couldn't be more on the money.

TheBull
10-05-2004, 11:44 PM
FWIW, here is an excerpt from Downey’s bio in the Tribune. If he is a Sox fan as some have claimed, his shoddy 10/4 article and answer below would belie that.





CS.com: Cubs or Sox fan?

Downey: Only marginally a Sox fan I would say because I'm from the South Suburbs. So I probably saw 10 or 15 games at Comiskey Park before I even knew there was a North Side. As a kid I thought there was the South Side of Chicago and then Wisconsin. I knew the Cubs were in between somewhere. As I got older I became infatuated by the Cubs, not like most Chicagoans but people from around the country. So by the time 1984 rolled along -- and I was in Detroit where the Tigers were about to win the World Series -- I couldn't keep one eye off the Cubs who looked as if they were going to play the Tigers in the '84 World Series. And I said, "I've been waiting all my life for the Cubs or White Sox to be in the World Series." I'm still waiting.

TheBull
10-05-2004, 11:48 PM
I doubt it will get published, but here is my letter to the editor (Voice of the People) sent this morning on Downey's article.



Mr. Downey,

Your October 4th piece on the White Sox “Problems aren’t limited to the North Side” was asinine. One would think an experienced columnist such as you could conjure up a bit more substance and accuracy after taking a two month Sox coverage sabbatical.

You claim “we had to endure month after month of comments about what wondrous things Ozzie Guillen was doing in his first year as manager.” To that I ask who are “we,” and to whom do you attribute these wondrous reports? Sure the Sox started out the season’s first two months with many comeback victories and exemplified the “never say die” attitude of their manager, but it never even approached evolving into the love fest that the North Siders wallow in blindly. Moreover, is it not a bit hyperbolic to claim any positive feedback on Ozzie’s managing as being something that you had to “endure”?

I think you spent a little too much time this summer in the Ouzo bars of Athens creating Olympic puff pieces, for no savvy sportswriter or fan would even consider drawing conclusions on Ozzie’s first year at the helm based on the comparative walk and stolen base totals from the previous year. Did you also forget that Ozzie challenged Loiaza early in Spring Training to raise his intensity and performance? Do you actually think that Ozzie could have done anything different with Koch and not shrink what little trade value he had remaining before Williams was able to unload him? If so, I have a bunch of heirlooms on eBay that might interest you.

In one article, you attempted to offend Sox fans, their manager, a good portion of the team and even their TV announcers. The only thing worse than your bush league, shotgun approach was the continued reference of unnamed voices such as your comments on the rumored Ordonez for Andruw Jones trade. “All I heard then was how Jones simply couldn't compare. Yeah, who needs a Gold Glover with 29 home runs, anyway?” The Sox fans I know were concerned about losing a great homegrown player in Magglio especially because Jones has a growing reputation of being a malingerer, but most welcomed the proposed trade if only for payroll reasons. Please document your sources or seek help for the voices you are hearing because they may not really exist.


When you are done scuffling your feet and playing “who is taller?” with the Lollipop Guild, please see the man behind the curtain for a brain, so Sox fans will not have to endure another article like this.

With all due respect,


"The Bull"