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View Full Version : Levine Reports Ordonez Had Additional Knee Surgery in Vienna


Wealz
10-04-2004, 04:55 PM
Said surgery was on the torn miniscus and could take 3-4 months to heal. Interesting that he went to Austria . . .

Mickster
10-04-2004, 05:15 PM
Said surgery was on the torn miniscus and could take 3-4 months to heal. Interesting that he went to Austria . . .
Could it be an attempt to hide the surgery???? :dunno:

bafiarocks03
10-04-2004, 05:19 PM
wow...

GiveMeSox
10-04-2004, 05:33 PM
Could it be an attempt to hide the surgery???? :dunno:
This is becoming scandalous, cub like indeed. What is this, Ordonez-Gate 04. This isn't a political coverup its a baseball player. Why is this whole thing becoming so weird. I think Maggs nows hes in deep water if he cant hardley walk or run right now. He knows he might not be ready next spring and wouldn't pass a physical for a multiyear deal from someone. I am beginning to beleive his only option would be a caution incentive deal from the sox. Say a salary of 3 to 4 mil to help him pay for his medical stuff with an extra 3 to 4 mil in incentives possible. I hope that becomes a reality. And we would have Everett to back him up out there if he cant go.

Tekijawa
10-04-2004, 05:40 PM
This is becoming scandalous, cub like indeed. What is this, Ordonez-Gate 04. This isn't a political coverup its a baseball player. Why is this whole thing becoming so weird. I think Maggs nows hes in deep water if he cant hardley walk or run right now. He knows he might not be ready next spring and wouldn't pass a physical for a multiyear deal from someone. I am beginning to beleive his only option would be a caution incentive deal from the sox. Say a salary of 3 to 4 mil to help him pay for his medical stuff with an extra 3 to 4 mil in incentives possible. I hope that becomes a reality. And we would have Everett to back him up out there if he cant go.
3-4 Million for medical stuff???? What kind of Knee are they having put in there?

Soxzilla
10-04-2004, 05:44 PM
3-4 Million for medical stuff???? What kind of Knee are they having put in there?
Who knows, maybe they prescribe a couple of those to sandy.

34 Inch Stick
10-04-2004, 05:44 PM
Have JR talk to Daley and get maggs' wife a job at the city. They have great medical.

Randar68
10-04-2004, 06:04 PM
3-4 Million for medical stuff???? What kind of Knee are they having put in there?
He's covered by the Sox as he's under contract until the end of the World Series IIRC.

mweflen
10-04-2004, 06:08 PM
3-4 Million for medical stuff???? What kind of Knee are they having put in there?
I agree with the idea of an incentive-laden contract, maybe with options past 1 year. But I think 3-4 mil base plus 3-4 mil incentive is just not fair market value for Ordonez based on performance.

More likely would be something like 8 mil base with 5 mil in incentives, and options for two more years at 13 mil flat rate.

OzzieBall2004
10-04-2004, 06:29 PM
And we would have Everett to back him up out there if he cant go.

Thats comforting....seeing how it worked so well this year

shagar69
10-04-2004, 06:31 PM
Thats comforting....seeing how it worked so well this year
oh dont worry, even if everett doesnt work out, we got stud power hitter joe borchard waiting to take his spot!

Mickster
10-04-2004, 06:34 PM
3-4 Million for medical stuff???? What kind of Knee are they having put in there?http://www.sixmilliondollarsite.co.uk/_images/biography%20images/lee.jpg

One that will make him stronger....faster.....

THE 3-4 MILLION DOLLAR MAN!!!!

hold2dibber
10-04-2004, 06:36 PM
I agree with the idea of an incentive-laden contract, maybe with options past 1 year. But I think 3-4 mil base plus 3-4 mil incentive is just not fair market value for Ordonez based on performance.

More likely would be something like 8 mil base with 5 mil in incentives, and options for two more years at 13 mil flat rate.
If he just had another knee surgery and is out of commission for 3-4 months, I don't think his market value is $8 million at this point in time. I guess it depends on the particulars of his medical condition, but from what is out there in the public domain, I doubt his market is $8 million per year at this point.

StillMissOzzie
10-04-2004, 06:48 PM
This new surgery just revives the credibility gap between the information KW reports and the information that comes from Maggs' camp. If the recovery was going as well as Maggs' camp was letting on, why the new surgery? Does the recovery clock start over now? Certainly sounds like winter baseball is out of the question.

SMO
:gulp:

SoxxoS
10-04-2004, 06:56 PM
I wouldn't touch Ordonez with a ten foot pole.

I am sorry. You turn down that amount of money which was offered (deferred or not, you are going to get it...inflation isn't 50%) I can't feel sorry for you. Now the Sox have the upper hand...if they want it.

MRKARNO
10-04-2004, 06:58 PM
It's funny how quickly this turned from a baseball injury into an international conspiracy

MRKARNO
10-04-2004, 07:01 PM
I wouldn't touch Ordonez with a ten foot pole.

I am sorry. You turn down that amount of money which was offered (deferred or not, you are going to get it...inflation isn't 50%) I can't feel sorry for you. Now the Sox have the upper hand...if they want it.
I agree wholeheartedly. Carl Everett is a much better bet and if we got a full year of 2003 Carl Everett, then we wouldnt even be losing all that much. Sorry it had to end this way Maggs, but you and your agents totally miscalculated your market value and then you got screwed with this very serious injury.

No responsible GM would give him a contract at this point until he could prove that he can run again, let alone play.

Lip Man 1
10-04-2004, 07:07 PM
Wealz says: "Interesting that he went to Austria . . ."

Well you didn't think he'd let the Sox staff cut on him did you? (Remember he only had a 'muscle strain' behind the knee)

I guess this is proof that bad things happen to good people.

Lip

he_gone_89
10-04-2004, 07:31 PM
http://www.sixmilliondollarsite.co.uk/_images/biography%20images/lee.jpg

One that will make him stronger....faster.....

THE 3-4 MILLION DOLLAR MAN!!!!
maybe we should send garland over there. if they can fix a banged up car[ordonez],possibly they can fix a trainwreck:D:

my european friend says that they don't have a form of the FDA in certain countries,so they can do stuff like use animal ligiments on people and stuff. but he could have gone to canada to escape that.l

hose
10-04-2004, 07:33 PM
Vienna Austria?

Vienna is at Damen & Fullerton

PavanoBeltran'05
10-04-2004, 07:52 PM
I agree with the idea of an incentive-laden contract, maybe with options past 1 year. But I think 3-4 mil base plus 3-4 mil incentive is just not fair market value for Ordonez based on performance.

More likely would be something like 8 mil base with 5 mil in incentives, and options for two more years at 13 mil flat rate.
See, I am not sure he's worth that kind of money. If he's got a brittle femur (which would be the after effect of the bone edema), he's an injury waiting to happen. With the money Ordonez was making, we could add a little and get Beltran. That way, we'd have Lee, Beltran, and Rowand (granted PK goes bye-bye)

PavanoBeltran'05
10-04-2004, 07:53 PM
Vienna Austria?

Vienna is at Damen & FullertonMan, I would love a chicago style dog right now. We don't offer that cuisine in the south.

SoxxoS
10-04-2004, 08:14 PM
Wealz says: "Interesting that he went to Austria . . ."

Well you didn't think he'd let the Sox staff cut on him did you? (Remember he only had a 'muscle strain' behind the knee)

I guess this is proof that bad things happen to good people.

Lip
If by "bad" you mean turning down a multi-million dollar contract extention after making 14 million THIS CURRENT YEAR, then I would love to see what "good" means to you.

This guy saw more money last year than the whole forum combined will see in 10 years...I have no problem with that, but he got greedy and it burned him.

I would classify what happened to the victims of 9/11 "bad" things happening to good people...not passing on a contract, and having a possible knee problem after being a multi-millionaire as it was.

PavanoBeltran'05
10-04-2004, 08:18 PM
If by "bad" you mean turning down a multi-million dollar contract extention after making 14 million THIS CURRENT YEAR, then I would love to see what "good" means to you.

This guy saw more money last year than the whole forum combined will see in 10 years...I have no problem with that, but he got greedy and it burned him.

I would classify what happened to the victims of 9/11 "bad" things happening to good people...not passing on a contract, and having a possible knee problem after being a multi-millionaire as it was.I feel that we got REALLY LUCKY with this one.
If you don't agree, look no further than the Orlando Magic. A ton of money rotting in a trainer's room can cripple an organization to the point of lottery status in the blink of an eye or an e-stim twitch.

jortafan
10-04-2004, 09:28 PM
Vienna Austria?

Vienna is at Damen & Fullerton
Sure he didn't go to Vienna, Ill.?

Flight #24
10-04-2004, 09:41 PM
Wealz says: "Interesting that he went to Austria . . ."

Well you didn't think he'd let the Sox staff cut on him did you? (Remember he only had a 'muscle strain' behind the knee)

I guess this is proof that bad things happen to good people.

Lip
Another slam at Sox medical staff despite the numerous reports from drs here, and lots of evidence from other teams that not only is medicine not an exact science, but also that Maggs injury in particular is a freak thing that's virtually impossible to detect if you're not specifically looking for it.

Leave no opportunity to rip the Sox unturned, huh? Sheesh.

DickAllen72
10-04-2004, 10:37 PM
Said surgery was on the torn miniscus and could take 3-4 months to heal. Interesting that he went to Austria . . .

Something smells funny here. Surgery to repair a torn miniscus is a piece of cake. That miniscus tear was supposedly taken care of with the first surgery. I can't believe the surgeon who performs that simple surgery on a multi-million dollar professional athlete would botch it. Even if the original surgery was botched, why go to Austria for a miniscus tear repair??? Doesn't make any sense.

I could understand maybe going to Austria for some "exotic" or unusual surgery to treat his bone marrow edema problem, or something else we don't know about, but I just can't see flying all the way to Austria to get a miniscus tear repaired.
:?:

Kogs35
10-04-2004, 10:43 PM
maggs agent adam katz is the same agent as the scammer samme sosa. adam katz is a idiot

hose
10-04-2004, 10:49 PM
Man, I would love a chicago style dog right now. We don't offer that cuisine in the south.They deliver......mmmmmmmmmm

Vienna's Italian beef is also delicious.

http://www.deepdishpizza.com/vendors/vienna/

Lip Man 1
10-04-2004, 11:15 PM
Soxxos:

Just because you are upset that he didn't take the Sox 'generous back loaded, incentive heavy, deferred money' laden deal doesn't mean he's not a good person.

Was Maggs ever arrested? Did he ever embarass himself? his family? his adopted city? How about the organization?

Remember the fact that he bought equipment for the Venezuelan Little League team? I guess not. How about Stuart Scott on ESPN saying he was his hero and the best person in baseball?

You comparing good versus bad only to the 9/11 victims is over the top. Doesn't mean Maggs is a bad guy. It was a business decision period.

and Flight....

Let's see....Eldred (strained forearm muscle), Sirotka (Shouldergate), Parque (Manuel saying he was hurt in the 2000 ALDS) now Frank and Maggs.

When something happens once it's a fluke, twice it's a coincidence, three or more times you've got a problem. Funny I don't read about these things happening to the Yankees or Cardinals or Braves or A's. I wonder why?


You're right...I never miss a chance to rip this bottom line, short term thinking, arrogant, vindictive, mediocre organization.


When they get to a World Series I'll be more then happy to stop.

Lip

SoxxoS
10-04-2004, 11:47 PM
Lip-
I was never in favor of giving Maggs a big contract...I think that this formula the Sox have been using hasn't worked, except for 1 year when we were swept in the playoffs. We need to use whatever $ JR was going to spend on the other holes on this team.

Until Uncle Jerry is out, we are going to always have a mid-level payroll. Since I will always be a Sox fan, I got to deal with it...even thought I want it to change. I am looking for the team to change in the best way possible with the current payroll constraints.

MisterB
10-05-2004, 12:25 AM
Let's see....Eldred (strained forearm muscle), Sirotka (Shouldergate), Parque (Manuel saying he was hurt in the 2000 ALDS) now Frank and Maggs.

When something happens once it's a fluke, twice it's a coincidence, three or more times you've got a problem. Funny I don't read about these things happening to the Yankees or Cardinals or Braves or A's. I wonder why?

You're right...I never miss a chance to rip this bottom line, short term thinking, arrogant, vindictive, mediocre organization.

When they get to a World Series I'll be more then happy to stop.

LipAnd you have proof any of this is the fault the Sox medical staff? If any agent had a whiff that a player's career was cut short due to malpractice on the part of team doctors, there'd be lawsuits flying so fast you could hear the sonic booms. By your insinuation, practically every pitcher on the Sox should have had their labrums in shreds by now. Surprise, it didn't happen. Look at the years before and after - It was a freak occurrence. We had one bizarre rash of injuries in '01 and then what? Thomas tears a tricep diving for a ball - obviously the team docs should have seen that coming. Harris and Ordonez collide in the outfield - yep, Sox docs to blame for that one, too. Thomas stress fracture in his foot - they should have been x-raying that foot weekly just in case. You wanna talk freak injuries - how about Giambi's intestinal parasite and pituitary tumor, Aaron Boone's off-season basketball playing and Steve Karsay's torn rotator cuff. (not that the Yanks have injuries...) How about Mark Ellis' dislocated shoulder, Mark Mulder's hip fracture and Jermaine Dye's frequent trips to the DL. (not that the A's have injuries.) :rolleyes:

PavanoBeltran'05
10-05-2004, 12:39 AM
And you have proof any of this is the fault the Sox medical staff? If any agent had a whiff that a player's career was cut short due to malpractice on the part of team doctors, there'd be lawsuits flying so fast you could hear the sonic booms. By your insinuation, practically every pitcher on the Sox should have had their labrums in shreds by now. Surprise, it didn't happen. Look at the years before and after - It was a freak occurrence. We had one bizarre rash of injuries in '01 and then what? Thomas tears a tricep diving for a ball - obviously the team docs should have seen that coming. Harris and Ordonez collide in the outfield - yep, Sox docs to blame for that one, too. Thomas stress fracture in his foot - they should have been x-raying that foot weekly just in case. You wanna talk freak injuries - how about Giambi's intestinal parasite and pituitary tumor, Aaron Boone's off-season basketball playing and Steve Karsay's torn rotator cuff. (not that the Yanks have injuries...) How about Mark Ellis' dislocated shoulder, Mark Mulder's hip fracture and Jermaine Dye's frequent trips to the DL. (not that the A's have injuries.) :rolleyes:
He makes some valid points. The jury's out on the Ordonez post-operative (long term) assessment. Was there a problem surgically, or was there such an impact on the femur from the Harris collision that the bone started swelling?
Everything else really can't be put on the Sox staff. You can't blame docs for injuries. The main people that you can ever put blame on for rashes of overuse injuries in sports are managers and strength/conditioning coaches. Any injury with a strong mechanism (something traumatic happening) really can't be avoided.

PavanoBeltran'05
10-05-2004, 12:44 AM
To finish that point, when talking about a manager or s/c coach, you're also dumping blame on the player.
For instance, a shoulder injury due to overuse or bad mechanics.The manager has to be on the ball as far as not overworking his guys. The strength coach has to police the workouts of his guys.
If you have stability of muscles and keep up with the intense offseason workouts to build them, your likelihood of a chronic injury decreases. How many times did you see Jerry Rice go out with a hamstrings injury? Michael Jordan? Those guys had intense offseason programs that kept those little nagging things from happening. That also falls on the players.
I don't know if the Sox staff can be blamed for much of that past.

Lip Man 1
10-05-2004, 01:31 AM
Soxxos:

I understand your point although I think your inference that Maggs is a 'bad guy' because he didn't take the 'rich' contract offer is wrong as I pointed out with specifics.

Mister B: As a matter of fact I do.

1.Manager Gandhi was quoted directly by the Chicago papers himself a few days after Eldred left that Saturday night game against the Cardinals in July, as saying 'it's just a forearm strain he'll probably only miss a few starts.' Feel free to pay to examine the Tribune archives yourself to confirm this. Where do you think Gandhi got that information? Did he simply pluck it out of midair? or his imaginitive mind? No, somebody on the Sox medical staff GAVE him that information.

Ordonez injury was originally diagnosed as a 'muscle strain behind the knee.' Where do you think the Chicago papers got that comment from? Oh I know the anti-Sox media just made it up.

And as I pointed out when the Thomas information came out, Frank was directly quoted as saying the pain in his foot was nowhere near the area that the Sox said the problem was. A fact that even Dr. Beckett said if true put a different light on what his injury was. Turns out Thomas WAS right about where the pain was.

Do you want me to go on?

Maybe it's just bad luck that all these things have happened within four years.

That seems to be as good an explination as any to some.

Lip

SoxxoS
10-05-2004, 02:00 AM
Lip-Didn't say Maggs was a "bad guy" in the whole post...just the things you listed doesn't make him any "nicer" than any of us. He definitely isn't a bad thing and I would never let the amount of money someone makes alter my opinion.
That being said, the point is-I don't feel sorry for him b/c he is one of the "good guys."

Unregistered
10-05-2004, 02:05 AM
From the Tribune:


A report Monday that Ordonez had surgery on his ailing left knee by doctors in Vienna about a month ago was reluctantly confirmed by Sox general manager Ken Williams.

"I guess the secret is out," Williams said of the WMVP-AM 1000 report. "I would have preferred this come from Magglio's camp, because anything I say on the subject is me trying to diminish his value."

Williams said Sox doctors haven't examined Ordonez yet. "He can go to Zimbabwe for all I care as long as he's healthy. And he's indicated to me that he's feeling better."

MisterB
10-05-2004, 03:33 AM
Mister B: As a matter of fact I do.

1.Manager Gandhi was quoted directly by the Chicago papers himself a few days after Eldred left that Saturday night game against the Cardinals in July, as saying 'it's just a forearm strain he'll probably only miss a few starts.' Feel free to pay to examine the Tribune archives yourself to confirm this. Where do you think Gandhi got that information? Did he simply pluck it out of midair? or his imaginitive mind? No, somebody on the Sox medical staff GAVE him that information.

Ordonez injury was originally diagnosed as a 'muscle strain behind the knee.' Where do you think the Chicago papers got that comment from? Oh I know the anti-Sox media just made it up.

And as I pointed out when the Thomas information came out, Frank was directly quoted as saying the pain in his foot was nowhere near the area that the Sox said the problem was. A fact that even Dr. Beckett said if true put a different light on what his injury was. Turns out Thomas WAS right about where the pain was.

Do you want me to go on?

Maybe it's just bad luck that all these things have happened within four years.

That seems to be as good an explination as any to some.

LipMedical diagnosis is an inexact science and actual, trained MD's can get a diagnosis wrong. (Some studies suggest as much as 30% of ALL medical diagnoses are wrong). Especially an initial one made before a series of other tests can be run. You're taking a process which you have little functional understanding of and making broad statements based on flawed information. What exactly are you ranting about anyway? That the Sox medical staff doesn't reach a conclusive answer fast enough for your taste? Do you think that further harm was done due to an incorrect diagnosis? Well, none of us are privy to the information that can prove it either way. It's mere speculation borne out of ignorance.

I don't like JR. He's done a piss-poor job of running this ballclub. But there's a difference between theorizing on the business practices of Sox ownership and basically accusing the Sox medical staff of negligence. Especially when you have no expertise in that area.

Iguana775
10-05-2004, 08:31 AM
See ya, Maggs. it was good while it lasted.

davenicholson
10-05-2004, 09:04 AM
Said surgery was on the torn miniscus and could take 3-4 months to heal. Interesting that he went to Austria . . .3-4 months for a torn meniscus??? I know I'm no professional athlete, but I had an old tear repaired 2 years ago, and in 6 weeks was back to karate, arguably more stressful on a knee joint than even professional-level baseball. It must be that the tear, compounded by his other problems, is what extend the layoff.

daveeym
10-05-2004, 09:23 AM
Medical diagnosis is an inexact science and actual, trained MD's can get a diagnosis wrong. (Some studies suggest as much as 30% of ALL medical diagnoses are wrong). Especially an initial one made before a series of other tests can be run. You're taking a process which you have little functional understanding of and making broad statements based on flawed information. What exactly are you ranting about anyway? That the Sox medical staff doesn't reach a conclusive answer fast enough for your taste? Do you think that further harm was done due to an incorrect diagnosis? Well, none of us are privy to the information that can prove it either way. It's mere speculation borne out of ignorance.

I don't like JR. He's done a piss-poor job of running this ballclub. But there's a difference between theorizing on the business practices of Sox ownership and basically accusing the Sox medical staff of negligence. Especially when you have no expertise in that area. While diagnosing injuries may be difficult sometimes many dr's are egotistical asses. They get pissed off if you go for a second opinion, often refuse to listen to their patients about what they're feeling and insist their diagnosis is correct (Who's the dr. here anyway not you mr. patient) I had tommy john surgery and my shoulder scoped. Neither injury turned up on the MRI's until an expert looked at them, and even at that point they were still guessing. On the tommy john surgery it took a bone scan to finally make sense of it. Problem was I had one dr. saying it's nothing, ticked I'm seeing another dr. and then screwing up the experts rehab schedule before possible surgery. Both surgeries found MAJOR problems once they cut me open. No one could adequately diagnos the problem and one of the dr's ego refused to allow him to listen to A. His patient and B. another dr.

Wealz
10-05-2004, 09:51 AM
Soxxos:

I understand your point although I think your inference that Maggs is a 'bad guy' because he didn't take the 'rich' contract offer is wrong as I pointed out with specifics.

Mister B: As a matter of fact I do.

1.Manager Gandhi was quoted directly by the Chicago papers himself a few days after Eldred left that Saturday night game against the Cardinals in July, as saying 'it's just a forearm strain he'll probably only miss a few starts.' Feel free to pay to examine the Tribune archives yourself to confirm this. Where do you think Gandhi got that information? Did he simply pluck it out of midair? or his imaginitive mind? No, somebody on the Sox medical staff GAVE him that information.

Ordonez injury was originally diagnosed as a 'muscle strain behind the knee.' Where do you think the Chicago papers got that comment from? Oh I know the anti-Sox media just made it up.

And as I pointed out when the Thomas information came out, Frank was directly quoted as saying the pain in his foot was nowhere near the area that the Sox said the problem was. A fact that even Dr. Beckett said if true put a different light on what his injury was. Turns out Thomas WAS right about where the pain was.

Do you want me to go on?

Maybe it's just bad luck that all these things have happened within four years.

That seems to be as good an explination as any to some.

Lip
What are you accusing the Sox organization of here Lip?

jabrch
10-05-2004, 12:13 PM
I wouldn't touch Ordonez with a ten foot pole.
Me neither - I wouldn't touch him. Sorry - I love Ordonez - but.....


He Gawn!!!!!!!!!!!!

Flight #24
10-05-2004, 01:00 PM
Soxxos:

I understand your point although I think your inference that Maggs is a 'bad guy' because he didn't take the 'rich' contract offer is wrong as I pointed out with specifics.

Mister B: As a matter of fact I do.

1.Manager Gandhi was quoted directly by the Chicago papers himself a few days after Eldred left that Saturday night game against the Cardinals in July, as saying 'it's just a forearm strain he'll probably only miss a few starts.' Feel free to pay to examine the Tribune archives yourself to confirm this. Where do you think Gandhi got that information? Did he simply pluck it out of midair? or his imaginitive mind? No, somebody on the Sox medical staff GAVE him that information.

Ordonez injury was originally diagnosed as a 'muscle strain behind the knee.' Where do you think the Chicago papers got that comment from? Oh I know the anti-Sox media just made it up.

And as I pointed out when the Thomas information came out, Frank was directly quoted as saying the pain in his foot was nowhere near the area that the Sox said the problem was. A fact that even Dr. Beckett said if true put a different light on what his injury was. Turns out Thomas WAS right about where the pain was.

Do you want me to go on?

Maybe it's just bad luck that all these things have happened within four years.

That seems to be as good an explination as any to some.

Lip
Or maybe it's just that (as many in the field have posted here), medicine is not an exact science, but it suits your argument to take an issue that's prevalent in the entire industry and use it to slam the Sox docs.

How different are the situations you list above from say Kerry Wood and Mark Prior having minor injuries that end up resulting in significant chunks of the season missed and/or surgery? Or from Jason Giambi's mystery ailment that was undiagnosable for most of the year? Or Garret Anderson's mysterious back problem that only 2-3 months later ended up being diagnosed as arthritis and treated with an anti-inflammatory? Or maybe Andy Pettitte's "sore elbow" that ended up needing surgery? Maybe all these teams just hire incompetent docs, huh?

These things happen to EVERY team, and diagnoses are often revised a number of times. One major reason is that non-invasive imaging techniques are often not conclusive. So the option is to treat it as a minor injury and see if it improves, or go right to surgery, in which case even if it IS minor, you still take the player out for a while.

But I guess it's just easier and more convenient for you to baselessly slam Sox docs.

Lip Man 1
10-05-2004, 01:03 PM
Wealz:

Look at the facts and come to your own conclusions.

I'm not saying anybody did anything deliberately but isn't it strange that in the past four years a number of Sox injury cases have had complications and issues with catestrophic consequences to the players involved and the franchise as a whole.

After the rash of injuries in 2000 Ken Williams spent a lot of time defending the Sox medical staff, he also said he was going to take a comprehensive look at all facets of the organization to try to make sure this didn't happen again.

I have never seen any published results of the 'inquiry' have you?

Lip

Flight #24
10-05-2004, 01:06 PM
Me neither - I wouldn't touch him. Sorry - I love Ordonez - but.....


He Gawn!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's see....
- a freak injury rumored to have long-term implications (although denied by Maggs camp)
- travel to a foreign country for what is supposedly a fairly minor procedure
- Maggs not wanting sox docs to get a look at him

Seems to me like there's a coverup going on here. It makes a lot more sense that the guy who's desperate to show he's healthy would only do these things if there was something much more serious and difficult to fix going on. This looks more and more like KW's the only guy being straight with the media in this incident. Understandably, Maggs is doing whatever he can to hide any possible problems and maintain a veneer of health.

If he was healthy and/or it was a minor procedure, why go to all the trouble and avoid the Sox docs who just want to look at him?

Wealz
10-05-2004, 01:11 PM
Wealz:

Look at the facts and come to your own conclusions.
I want to know what your conclusions are. You seem to be making a case for something. What is it?

Wealz
10-05-2004, 01:13 PM
FWIW, the SCORE reported this surgery was "to improve blood flow to the knee" and not to repair the miniscus.

Lip Man 1
10-05-2004, 01:20 PM
Wealz:

I stated my opinions. I'm not accusing the Sox medical staff of anything deliberate, however feel free to explain these 'incidents' to me as well as why nothing was ever announced from Williams' 'investigation.'

Field managers should not be making comments about medical injuries as both Gandhi and Ozzie did, head trainers who are not doctors should not be making medical diagnosis. The Sox organization given their 'lack of clarity' in the past four years should say nothing and refer all questions to doctors for comment.

That's another part of the problem. One person is saying one thing in the organization, then another person when things go wrong, has to say something else to CYA.

Lip

Flight #24
10-05-2004, 01:23 PM
Wealz:

I stated my opinions. I'm not accusing the Sox medical staff of anything deliberate, however feel free to explain these 'incidents' to me as well as why nothing was ever announced from Williams' 'investigation.'

Lip
Already explained. And why on earth should KW come out months later, rehash the whole thing just to say "hey, our guys are as good as there are out there, it's not our fault that the medical field isn't an exact science, every team has similar problems."?

HebrewHammer
10-05-2004, 01:52 PM
I can just picture Maggs slipping out of the country on a red eye, hobbling through Austria using a fake passport and fake beard to get to his doctor for a career saving procedure, all to fool teams into signing him for big dollars this coming off season.



:KW

"I should've mailed it to the Marx Brothers."

Palehose13
10-05-2004, 03:02 PM
FWIW, the SCORE reported this surgery was "to improve blood flow to the knee" and not to repair the miniscus.
I heard this also. Apparently, this is a very rare occurrence and B&B said one person came to their minds: "Bo Jackson".

KW also stated (paraphrased) that this does not look to be a career-ending injury, but one that leaves the question "Will he have the same speed that he once had?".

The way I see it, Mags will never be the same again. Thank goodness he didn't sign that contract when he could have. Magglio turned down the highest contract ever offered to a player by the White Sox. The only way I want him back is if he signs an incentive-laden deal. If he can play like he used to great, he gets the money. If he can't, no harm to the payroll. If another team wants to gamble big money on him...see you later Mags.

Lip Man 1
10-05-2004, 08:09 PM
FWIW: Dan Rohn was kind enough to get back with me on this...

"pretty sure Maggs has a bigger problem with his knee... I tore my meniscus once and it was a no-big-deal thing, healed itself actually without surgery... I think he's having blood-flow issues to the injury, which are keeping it from healing-- not unlike Ron Santo's situation with his legs, albeit under vastly different circumstances... if that's the case, his career is in jeopardy, too-- that's some weird medicine going on down there on the south side... dr

Lip

Kogs35
10-05-2004, 08:17 PM
FWIW: Dan Rohn was kind enough to get back with me on this...

"pretty sure Maggs has a bigger problem with his knee... I tore my meniscus once and it was a no-big-deal thing, healed itself actually without surgery... I think he's having blood-flow issues to the injury, which are keeping it from healing-- not unlike Ron Santo's situation with his legs, albeit under vastly different circumstances... if that's the case, his career is in jeopardy, too-- that's some weird medicine going on down there on the south side... dr



Lip


wow, thanks for the info lip

PavanoBeltran'05
10-05-2004, 10:17 PM
Not quite as terribly bad as DR was saying, but it isn't good. He's looking at a year rehab, from what I've seen on this injury type.

beckett21
10-06-2004, 12:44 AM
Not quite as terribly bad as DR was saying, but it isn't good. He's looking at a year rehab, from what I've seen on this injury type.Yeah, I'd be a little more impressed with *DR* 's credentials, that is if *DR* stood for *Doctor*, not *Dan Roan, TV sports personality*.

*weird medicine going down on the southside...* :?:

Yeah, Dan Roan's the expert. If he says so, it must be true. Truly enlightening. Bunch of witch doctors down there, as opposed to the northside docs who so miraculously healed Mark Prior.

He's entitled to his opinion, but that's about all it's worth. I'm so glad he knows all the nuances involved in diagnosis and treatment of knee injuries. He's a better man than I. I'm not even going to give an opinion on Magglio's injury because it is beyond my expertise.

And Lip, before you get defensive I know you are just passing on the info FWIW and I do appreciate it. I assume this message was sent to you in confidence. Hopefully DR keeps his personal medical insights to himself and doesn't share them with the public, because that would be irresponsible IMO. Unless of course he completes 4 years of medical school and subsequently a 5 year residency in orthopedic surgery. Then I may give his opinion a tad more weight. But it is precisely these types of comments that gives the Sox docs a black eye in the press, and it is unwarranted.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2004, 01:05 PM
Beckett:

The 'confidence' issue was never discussed. If Dan had asked that this be kept private I certainly would have done so.

I just thought it would be worthwhile to get an opinion of someone not connected to the Sox or directly with this board.

And as you know while I'm not a doctor I feel I have established some legitimate questions about what has been going on concerning the Sox medical situation and the treatment of players since 2000.

Lip

Brian26
10-06-2004, 01:20 PM
Dan Rohn's got as much insider knowledge right now as most of us, and most likely less than some of us.

beckett21
10-06-2004, 03:40 PM
Beckett:

The 'confidence' issue was never discussed. If Dan had asked that this be kept private I certainly would have done so.

I just thought it would be worthwhile to get an opinion of someone not connected to the Sox or directly with this board.

And as you know while I'm not a doctor I feel I have established some legitimate questions about what has been going on concerning the Sox medical situation and the treatment of players since 2000.

Lip
Lip,

As I said I understand that this is his opinion. What my feeling is that he is wise to keep his *opinions* to himself when they have no basis in fact. Because otherwise, his comments can and will be misconstrued by the general public/layperson.

To compare this to Ron Santo is not only ludicrous but very misleading. A traumatic injury sustained by an otherwise healthy 30-year old athlete is in no way shape or form anything *like* a sixty-something uncontrolled diabetic double amputee. There are absolutely NO parallels whatsoever, but when said in that context people are going to assume that Magglio is at risk of losing his leg. That could not be further from the truth.

Even my opinions should be taken with a grain of salt, so I am not claiming holier than thou here. Trust me, I don't know everything nor do I claim to. Not to mention I will be the first to admit that I have absolutely NO insider knowledge. But to insinuate that there is *weird medicine on the southside* because Magglio suffered a freak injury is irresponsible and flat out inaccurate. Where were the insinuations in regards to Mark Prior? Huh?

Just trying to keep things at an even keel here; we don't need any more rabblerousing with silly inaccurate comparisons. The two are as different as night and day. You and DR are certainly entitled to your opinions; but they should be presented as such, or else they become misleading.

SoxEd
10-06-2004, 05:09 PM
Said surgery was on the torn miniscus and could take 3-4 months to heal. Interesting that he went to Austria . . .
I'd guess that there are more top-notch knee specialists here in Europe due to the amount of pro-Soccer players.

I'm no medical expert, and I haven't seen any press reports about exactly what Maggs had done in Vienna, but a knee injury picked up in a running collision is the kind of injury you see all the time in Soccer, so his flying to Europe makes sense to me.

Of course, as others have posted, it also gets him away from the US press, so maybe surgery in Europe has a less deleterious effect on his trade value/contract $ negotiating position than surgery in the States.

I just hope that he's ok and can come back to the '05 Sox as good a player as he ever was.

Should have used deep pink for that last sentence, shouldn't I?

DickAllen72
10-06-2004, 05:14 PM
FWIW: Dan Rohn was kind enough to get back with me on this...

"... I tore my meniscus once and it was a no-big-deal thing, healed itself actually without surgery... that's some weird medicine going on down there on the south side... dr

Lip



DR is full of BS. A torn meniscus is not that big a deal--I've had that myself--but a torn meniscus does not heal itself without surgery.

As to him comparing Magg's bone marrow edema to Ron Santo's losing his legs due to diabetes, that's just ridiculous.

Weird medicine going down from DR.

Mickster
10-06-2004, 05:28 PM
I'd guess that there are more top-notch knee specialists here in Europe due to the amount of pro-Soccer players.

I'm no medical expert, and I haven't seen any press reports about exactly what Maggs had done in Vienna, but a knee injury picked up in a running collision is the kind of injury you see all the time in Soccer, so his flying to Europe makes sense to me.
Your analysis certainly seems feasible to me....