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View Full Version : Why Addressing Defense & Speed Would Be Backwards


Wealz
10-02-2004, 02:00 PM
A poster on a White Sox mailing list dug up the following home runs allowed and walks allowed this season. I think it speaks volumes.

Yankees 179 HRA 425 BBA
Red Sox 155 HRA 440 BBA
Twins 160 HRA 420 BBA
A's 161 HRA 532 BBA
Angels 170 HRA 492 BBA


White Sox 221 HRA 512 BBA

PaleHoseGeorge
10-02-2004, 02:34 PM
Yes, but the Yankees, Red Sox, Twins, A's, and Angels are all in (or nearly in) the postseason because they bunt and steal bases... at least that's what the White Sox rookie manager seems to think.
:cool:

:ozzie
"If you think 2004 was a mess, wait till I assemble my sort of team for 2005!"

:ohno
"Dammit... there's another of those home runs Ozzie hates. How will we ever win another game?"

TornLabrum
10-02-2004, 03:07 PM
Yes, but the Yankees, Red Sox, Twins, A's, and Angels are all in (or nearly in) the postseason because they bunt and steal bases... at least that's what the White Sox rookie manager seems to think.
:cool:

:ozzie
"If you think 2004 was a mess, wait till I assemble my sort of team for 2005!"

:ohno
"Dammit... there's another of those home runs Ozzie hates. How will we ever win another game?"
Here's one thing I'm willing to wager on: They have a much more balaced attack than the Sox.

Jjav829
10-02-2004, 03:10 PM
A poster on a White Sox mailing list dug up the following home runs allowed and walks allowed this season. I think it speaks volumes.

Yankees 179 HRA 425 BBA
Red Sox 155 HRA 440 BBA
Twins 160 HRA 420 BBA
A's 161 HRA 532 BBA
Angels 170 HRA 492 BBA


White Sox 221 HRA 512 BBAWhat do the two have to do with each other? Ozzie has stated plenty of times that he needs another starting pitcher and another reliever. He understands that this team needs pitching help. But he also understands that this team isn't balanced enough on offense and that if they continue to go in this direction, they will end up like the Cubs (who starting pitching aside are nearly the same team as the Sox).

Wealz
10-02-2004, 04:38 PM
What do the two have to do with each other?
Virtually any resources earmarked specifically to improve team speed and defense would not be a good thing when the most critical problem facing this team can't be helped with faster players or better defenders.

JB98
10-02-2004, 04:49 PM
Virtually any resources earmarked specifically to improve team speed and defense would not be a good thing when the most critical problem facing this team can't be helped with faster players or better defenders.

A legitimate leadoff man would be nice, but above all else, we need pitching. Even with a healthy Maggs and a healthy Frank, we would not have won the division because our pitching failed us miserably the second half of the season. Our bullpen stinks.

Some talk about Minnesota's speed and supposed balance offensively as the reason they won the division. Well, guess what? Minnesota is near the bottom of the AL in offense. We don't need to emulate the Twins offensively. What Minnesota does have is a tremendous bullpen. Anaheim has a great bullpen too. The Yankees aren't as deep in relief pitching, but I'll take Rivera, Gordon and Quantrill over anybody on the Sox.

I agree that we could use more balance offensively, but that's a secondary concern. Improving the pitching has to be priority one this offseason.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-02-2004, 04:54 PM
Virtually any resources earmarked specifically to improve team speed and defense would not be a good thing when the most critical problem facing this team can't be helped with faster players or better defenders.
Exactly.

In fact, the notion that the Sox need better pitching is irrelevant. Every team no matter how good always needs better pitching. We're talking about what the Sox intend to do *after* getting better pitching.

Ozzie has gone on the record wanting bunters and base stealers. The need for home runs and base on balls never enters his thick skull.

Thus we're doomed. Playoff teams have better pitching against the very things Ozzie isn't concerned about achieving with his offense... namely home runs and base on balls. In fact he has been crowing about what LOSERS the Sox are for hitting home runs!

Grade-A Idiot ------------> :ozzie

Jjav829
10-02-2004, 05:24 PM
Exactly.

In fact, the notion that the Sox need better pitching is irrelevant. Every team no matter how good always needs better pitching. We're talking about what the Sox intend to do *after* getting better pitching.

Ozzie has gone on the record wanting bunters and base stealers. The need for home runs and base on balls never enters his thick skull.

Thus we're doomed. Playoff teams have better pitching against the very things Ozzie isn't concerned about achieving with his offense... namely home runs and base on balls. In fact he has been crowing about what LOSERS the Sox are for hitting home runs!

Grade-A Idiot ------------> :ozzie
Ozzie has also gone on the record saying he wants guys who can get on base. You choose to ignore that just to rip into him once again for saying he wants guys who know how to bunt.

I think the notion that this team needs to focus on one particular thing is pointless. This team needs to be more balanced as a whole. Championship teams don't just do one thing well. They do everything well. Home runs are great. The point is that waiting for a home run can be counter-productive to a team. This isn't to say that a team needs to constantly bunt guys over or play small ball, but there should be an ideal mix. Home runs will come as part of the game. In the ballpark that this team plays it's home games in, home runs will not be hard to hit. Hell, simple line drives to left find their way into the bullpen routinely. Ideally this team would be composed of more guys who can do everything well. Be it drawing a walk, getting a hit, taking an extra base, or hitting a home run.

I simply don't buy into the idea that this team should focus on one area. We need better pitching. We need a more balanced offense. Without both, I can't see this team doing anything. There has to be a mix of both. Ask the Cubs what good pitching and a team full of home run hitters gives you. Ask the Texas Rangers what a team full of mashers with no pitching gets you. Ask the Dodgers of the past few years what a team with good pitching but no offense gets you. The point is you can't be a successful team relying on one thing. Look at the World Series Champions of the past few years. They all had a good amount of balance to them. That's what I want to see this team have.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-02-2004, 05:41 PM
Ozzie has also gone on the record saying he wants guys who can get on base. You choose to ignore that just to rip into him once again for saying he wants guys who know how to bunt. Fine. How about a link where he says he wants men on base? I bet the very next quote is about bunts, steals, and "the little things."

The guy is focused on wasting outs. Stop trying to kid yourself.

I think the notion that this team needs to focus on one particular thing is pointless. This team needs to be more balanced as a whole. Championship teams don't just do one thing well. They do everything well. Home runs are great. The point is that waiting for a home run can be counter-productive to a team. This isn't to say that a team needs to constantly bunt guys over or play small ball, but there should be an ideal mix. Home runs will come as part of the game. In the ballpark that this team plays it's home games in, home runs will not be hard to hit. Hell, simple line drives to left find their way into the bullpen routinely. Ideally this team would be composed of more guys who can do everything well. Be it drawing a walk, getting a hit, taking an extra base, or hitting a home run. Well sure, focusing on one thing is a loser's strategy. I don't recall anyone here making such a suggestion so I'm confused why you're upset. For example, here are the multiple things I personally believe the Sox need to focus on improving:

1. Pitching, both starters and bullpen
2. A leadoff man who gets on base
3. A #2 hitter who can hit behind the runner, get on base, and hit fastballs.
4. A bottom-third of the order that knows how to take pitches.

Note that the words "bunt" or "steal" or "run fast" or "good glove/lousy bat" never once enters the equation.

Based on who is going to the playoffs this month, I'd say I'm a thousand-times closer to building a championship team than Ozzie is.

I simply don't buy into the idea that this team should focus on one area. We need better pitching. We need a more balanced offense. Without both, I can't see this team doing anything. There has to be a mix of both. Ask the Cubs what good pitching and a team full of home run hitters gives you. Ask the Texas Rangers what a team full of mashers with no pitching gets you. Ask the Dodgers of the past few years what a team with good pitching but no offense gets you. The point is you can't be a successful team relying on one thing. Look at the World Series Champions of the past few years. They all had a good amount of balance to them. That's what I want to see this team have.Frankly I'm beginning to think the word "balance" is just a crutch for everyone excusing Ozzie for not having a ****ing clue what he is talking about. If Ozzie means what you mean when he says "balance," the word "bunt" shouldn't be the very next word to drop out of his mouth.

batmanZoSo
10-02-2004, 05:58 PM
A poster on a White Sox mailing list dug up the following home runs allowed and walks allowed this season. I think it speaks volumes.

Yankees 179 HRA 425 BBA
Red Sox 155 HRA 440 BBA
Twins 160 HRA 420 BBA
A's 161 HRA 532 BBA
Angels 170 HRA 492 BBA


White Sox 221 HRA 512 BBA

How is merely "addressing" speed and defense backwards? We need a scrappy leadoff hitter and maybe one other position that can do those small ball things. THat's it. We're still hitting a ton of home runs.

Wealz
10-02-2004, 06:19 PM
How is merely "addressing" speed and defense backwards? We need a scrappy leadoff hitter and maybe one other position that can do those small ball things. THat's it. We're still hitting a ton of home runs.
First and foremost we need pitchers who keep the ball in the park. Next we need pitchers who throw strikes. Ozzie wanting to prioritize speed and defense just doesn't make any sense.

Oh yeah $39M has been spent on this staff since July.

batmanZoSo
10-02-2004, 06:26 PM
Ozzie wanting to prioritize speed and defense just doesn't make any sense.


That doesn't make a lick of sense. I can't believe after all these years so many people still can't see the problem with this team. Speed and defense don't slump. Home runs do..big time. You need a balance.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-02-2004, 06:30 PM
That doesn't make a lick of sense. I can't believe after all these years so many people still can't see the problem with this team. Speed and defense don't slump. Home runs do..big time. You need a balance.
Okay Zoso... why don't you indulge us with your definition of "balance." Explain how the art of pitching, hitting, and defense all mold together to create a championship team.

This ought to be good.

batmanZoSo
10-02-2004, 06:59 PM
Okay Zoso... why don't you indulge us with your definition of "balance." Explain how the art of pitching, hitting, and defense all mold together to create a championship team.

This ought to be good.

What is this a trick question or just a stupid one?

You need power hitters AND a few guys that do the little things well. That's called balance. The main reason we aren't consistent at getting just enough runs to win is because we have too many home run hitters, but more importantly, they're not very GOOD power hitters. It's okay to have 4 or 5 Konerko/Thomas types in the middle, but when your supporting power hitters bat .212 (Crede, Valentin) and you have others that are barely big league material (Harris, Davis), you're not gonna go anywhere. And that's what we have.

Obviously the Yankees are exclusively a power team and they win, but that's because their whole lineup is great. They have Matsui, we have Crede...they have Posada, we have Ben Davis. But we can't afford a lineup like theirs, we have to be able to run a little bit. Not just steals, but the ability to score from first on a double and second on a single. Cut down on strikeouts by letting Valentin go and replace him with someone who can lead off, bunt his way on occasionally, hit singles consistently...just get on base somehow and at least put the ball in play. We need to be more like the 99 Indians with speed at the top and power in the middle. That was the ultimate lineup. The one we have is too on and off and fielding a team like the 82 Cardinals (as in Ozzie's wet dream) is impractical and can't compete in the AL.

pudge
10-02-2004, 07:05 PM
This is a very appropriate end-of-the-season thread - angst abound amongst Sox fans!


Here's to '05, drink up! :gulp:

PaleHoseGeorge
10-02-2004, 07:16 PM
What is this a trick question or just a stupid one?

You need power hitters AND a few guys that do the little things well. That's called balance. The main reason we aren't consistent at getting just enough runs to win is because we have too many home run hitters, but more importantly, they're not very GOOD power hitters. It's okay to have 4 or 5 Konerko/Thomas types in the middle, but when your supporting power hitters bat .212 (Crede, Valentin) and you have others that are barely big league material (Harris, Davis), you're not gonna go anywhere. And that's what we have.

Obviously the Yankees are exclusively a power team and they win, but that's because their whole lineup is great. They have Matsui, we have Crede...they have Posada, we have Ben Davis. But we can't afford a lineup like theirs, we have to be able to run a little bit. Not just steals, but the ability to score from first on a double and second on a single. Cut down on strikeouts by letting Valentin go and replace him with someone who can lead off, bunt his way on occasionally, hit singles consistently...just get on base somehow and at least put the ball in play. We need to be more like the 99 Indians with speed at the top and power in the middle. That was the ultimate lineup. The one we have is too on and off and fielding a team like the 82 Cardinals (as in Ozzie's wet dream) is impractical and can't compete in the AL.Umm... what does ANY OF THIS have to do with Wealz assertion found in the title of this thread, "Addressing Defense and Speed would be a Backwards [Approach]?"

You're the one arguing the point. You said it didn't make a lick of sense and accused anyone of believing it to be "stupid." You think speed and defense AREN'T a backwards approach. So let's hear it. So far the silence has been deafening.

Come on. Go for it.

batmanZoSo
10-02-2004, 08:10 PM
Umm... what does ANY OF THIS have to do with Wealz assertion found in the title of this thread, "Addressing Defense and Speed would be a Backwards [Approach]?"

You're the one arguing the point. You said it didn't make a lick of sense and accused anyone of believing it to be "stupid." You think speed and defense AREN'T a backwards approach. So let's hear it. So far the silence has been deafening.


First, I said no such thing. Send me a postcard from fantasy land. I argued specifically against Wealz statement of "Ozzie wanting to prioritize speed and defense just doesn't make any sense." You need both of those things to win a division, a playoff series, a championship.

As for "what does this have to do with the title of this thread," I was answering YOUR post which questioned the importance of "balance"! What silence are you talking about? I guess if one party refuses to LISTEN, then silence you have.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-02-2004, 08:22 PM
First, I said no such thing. Send me a postcard from fantasy land. I argued specifically against Wealz statement of "Ozzie wanting to prioritize speed and defense just doesn't make any sense." You need both of those things to win a division, a playoff series, a championship.

As for "what does this have to do with the title of this thread," I was answering YOUR post which questioned the importance of "balance"! What silence are you talking about? I guess if one party refuses to LISTEN, then silence you have.
Very well. I should have known this was a waste of time.

You haven't got the balls to say why addressing defense and speed WOULDN'T be backwards.
:cool:

Wealz
10-02-2004, 08:57 PM
First, I said no such thing. Send me a postcard from fantasy land. I argued specifically against Wealz statement of "Ozzie wanting to prioritize speed and defense just doesn't make any sense." You need both of those things to win a division, a playoff series, a championship.
There's no evidence that the Sox don't posess adequate enough defense or enough speed.

Instead of "fixing what they can fix" (which is what they normally do) i.e. improve the speed and defense, the Sox should do something about their most glaring problem of homers allowed and walks allowed.

Win1ForMe
10-02-2004, 10:02 PM
There's no evidence that the Sox don't posess adequate enough defense or enough speed.

Instead of "fixing what they can fix" (which is what they normally do) i.e. improve the speed and defense, the Sox should do something about their most glaring problem of homers allowed and walks allowed.But didn't Ozzie say they want to add another starter and a set-up/closer type bullpen pitcher? If they do or don't remains to be seen, but you seem to be selectively filtering out what's convenient for whatever it is your arguing.

Wealz
10-02-2004, 10:17 PM
But didn't Ozzie say they want to add another starter and a set-up/closer type bullpen pitcher? If they do or don't remains to be seen, but you seem to be selectively filtering out what's convenient for whatever it is your arguing.Ozzie's been pretty consistent in calling for more speed and defense however, he's said different things on different occasions about the pitching. The last thing I read him say was that he was happy with the starting pitching as the foundation.

As much as I'd like to see Williams replaced, I'm glad Ozzie isn't the G.M.

Win1ForMe
10-02-2004, 10:29 PM
Ozzie's been pretty consistent in calling for more speed and defense however, he's said different things on different occasions about the pitching. The last thing I read him say was that he was happy with the starting pitching as the foundation.

As much as I'd like to see Williams replaced, I'm glad Ozzie isn't the G.M.
This was in the 9/29 Daily Herald:


After Buehrle and Garcia, the Sox will chose between holdover starters Jose Contreras, Jon Garland and Jason Grilli. General manager Kenny Williams also is planning on signing a proven free agent during the off-season.

batmanZoSo
10-02-2004, 11:26 PM
Very well. I should have known this was a waste of time.

You haven't got the balls to say why addressing defense and speed WOULDN'T be backwards.
:cool:

That hurts on so many levels, seeing as I don't have balls and all..

batmanZoSo
10-02-2004, 11:38 PM
There's no evidence that the Sox don't posess adequate enough defense or enough speed.

Instead of "fixing what they can fix" (which is what they normally do) i.e. improve the speed and defense, the Sox should do something about their most glaring problem of homers allowed and walks allowed.

Our defense is not bad so to speak but our team speed blows and you know it. Excluding Harris, because he's not an every day player, you have Rowand who can steal 20 but is a merely above average runner who steals bases because of good instincts. Uribe is somewhat fast, but he can't steal for ####. He's gotten thrown out as often as he's stolen. Then you have Thomas, Konerko, Lee, Everett, Crede, and Davis. I rest my case.

What the Sox should do is fix what needs fixing. And that entails both the staff and the lineup. At the bare minimum we need a starter, two relievers (either to emerge or to be acquired) and a leadoff man.