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CarlosMay'sThumb
10-01-2004, 09:53 AM
With Omar Minaya now the new GM in New York, Duquette was demoted to senior VP after 1 year as GM.

I can't stand Kenny Williams any more. The guy inherited a division winner and has done nothing with it for 4 years. I know he has made some good moves, but to me he's just been throwing mud at the wall for 4 years and some of it has stuck. There's absolutely no plan here or the plan changes year to year. The current state of the team is the worst I can remember with no prospects and perhaps 2-3 guys on the field I want to keep.

JR should at least interview Duquette.

Max Power
10-01-2004, 10:02 AM
What has Duquette done with the Mets that makes him a good candidate? I don't follow them, so other than the Bensen and Zambrano trades I don't know what he's done.

I like KW's aggressiveness, but in the end the results haven't been there. I'm open to someone else coming in.

Randar68
10-01-2004, 10:52 AM
With Omar Minaya now the new GM in New York, Duquette was demoted to senior VP after 1 year as GM.

I can't stand Kenny Williams any more. The guy inherited a division winner and has done nothing with it for 4 years. I know he has made some good moves, but to me he's just been throwing mud at the wall for 4 years and some of it has stuck. There's absolutely no plan here or the plan changes year to year. The current state of the team is the worst I can remember with no prospects and perhaps 2-3 guys on the field I want to keep.

JR should at least interview Duquette.I can't stand the stupid, asinine, moronic, ignorant, and 20/20 hindsight comments about KW "inheriting a winner" that went into the following season with half a bullpen and no rotation. *****.

If you just don't like Kenny Williams because he's black, not named Dan Evans, or some other selfish and petty reason, that's fine. But the man has made moves, not sat on his hands, drafted well, and made a ton of trades under payroll limitations.

JIM FREAKING DUQUETTE?

:whoflungpoo

Randar68
10-01-2004, 10:53 AM
JR should at least interview Duquette.
And oh yeah, Carlos May's thumb must have had more brain cells than you.

:threadsucks

Sell Jerry Sell!
10-01-2004, 11:41 AM
isn't Duquette the guy who turned the mets into a $100M consistent losing team?

CarlosMay'sThumb
10-01-2004, 11:49 AM
I can't stand the stupid, asinine, moronic, ignorant, and 20/20 hindsight comments about KW "inheriting a winner" that went into the following season with half a bullpen and no rotation. *****.

If you just don't like Kenny Williams because he's black, not named Dan Evans, or some other selfish and petty reason, that's fine. But the man has made moves, not sat on his hands, drafted well, and made a ton of trades under payroll limitations.

JIM FREAKING DUQUETTE?

:whoflungpooWhat a ringing endorsement. He "didn't sit on his hands". Wow.:bandance: Who, exactly, did he draft well? And his trades sucked. I don't want to hear anymore about Loaiza, Marte and Scho. They suck now too. And he just pissed off our best player by making an idiot of himself in the media. And "making a ton of trades" and getting worse every year is just plain bad.

And not liking a guy "becaue he's black...is fine"? :o:

The Wimperoo
10-01-2004, 11:57 AM
Even if KW does suck, Duquette sucks even more wang. He had pretty much all of the payroll in the world and put together a terrible team. How's Scott Kazmir look right now. :dtroll:

NonetheLoaiza
10-01-2004, 12:01 PM
jim duquette? was that supposed to be in teal?

Randar68
10-01-2004, 12:13 PM
What a ringing endorsement. He "didn't sit on his hands". Wow.:bandance: Who, exactly, did he draft well? And his trades sucked. I don't want to hear anymore about Loaiza, Marte and Scho. They suck now too. And he just pissed off our best player by making an idiot of himself in the media. And "making a ton of trades" and getting worse every year is just plain bad.

And not liking a guy "becaue he's black...is fine"? :o:
Yeah, you also don't want to hear about anyone else. He's traded most of his upper-level prospects, because without payroll, that's what needed to be done to compete today. Are you saying this team + Maggs + Frank wouldn't have been at least in it until the final weekend?

Marte sucks? News to me. He got him for a song. Got David Wells for what turned out to be nothing. The list goes on and on. Yes, he's made bad deals. Every GM has. GET OVER IT.

Getting worse every year? This team's been a 2nd place team each of the past 3 seasons. How is that getting worse? He inherited ZERO starting rotation from that 95-win anomoly. If that team is what you think he inherited, you're dumber than I gave you credit for.

:dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll:

CubKilla
10-01-2004, 12:28 PM
Are you saying this team + Maggs + Frank wouldn't have been at least in it until the final weekend?
I would and am. Does that make me a :dtroll: too?

HITMEN OF 77
10-01-2004, 12:28 PM
I think KW did a decent job this year. Had Frank and Maggs not fallen to injury who knows what this team might have done. I don't think you can pin this season on KW.

Randar68
10-01-2004, 12:32 PM
And not liking a guy "becaue he's black...is fine"? :o:
"fine" as in, "fine, I can just ignore you because you're a bigot", not "fine" as in "that's acceptible".

Flight #24
10-01-2004, 12:42 PM
I would and am. Does that make me a :dtroll: too?
I wouldn't say that makes you a troll as much as it's just plain :?: .

20 losses in the 2d half by 1 or 2 runs. If you don't think swapping out Borchard/Gload/Everett/Perez for Frank and Maggs gets you at least 10 of those back, then there's no point in discussing things further. If you also don't think that having Jon Rauch to trade for bulpen help or a 5th starter rather than having to trade for Everett adds a win or 2, well, see the first point.

And if the Sox just go .500 in those close losses, guess what - they're in first by a game, so to say they wouldn't be at least contending down to the wire is a huge stretch.

CarlosMay'sThumb
10-01-2004, 12:56 PM
Yeah, you also don't want to hear about anyone else. He's traded most of his upper-level prospects, because without payroll, that's what needed to be done to compete today. Are you saying this team + Maggs + Frank wouldn't have been at least in it until the final weekend?

Marte sucks? News to me. He got him for a song. Got David Wells for what turned out to be nothing. The list goes on and on. Yes, he's made bad deals. Every GM has. GET OVER IT.

Getting worse every year? This team's been a 2nd place team each of the past 3 seasons. How is that getting worse? He inherited ZERO starting rotation from that 95-win anomoly. If that team is what you think he inherited, you're dumber than I gave you credit for.

:dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll:
You can make excuses for him all you want, but he DID inherit a division winning team. And his bad trades have been huge whoppers. Todd Ritchie? Billy Koch? I don't even know how you have the nerve to use Wells as an example - the guy sucked for us. Marte was a 1 year wonder middle reliever who can only get lefties out.

And as for this team getting worse - 83/79, 81/81, 86/76 and 81/78 this year is mediocre crap year after year. And stop whining about the money he has to spend - somehow the Twins manage to beat our ass every year since he's been GM for less money. Watch out for the Indians and their 6 All Stars next year.

The fact is that this team is now in the worst position it's been in since the division winners in 2000. No prospects, no minor leaguers worth talking about and nobody on the field worth keeping except Rowand, Lee and Konerko.

Randar68
10-01-2004, 01:13 PM
No prospects, no minor leaguers worth talking about
End of discussion. I didn't think you could manage to dig your hole any deeper. But I underestimated you.

Tekijawa
10-01-2004, 01:23 PM
No prospects, no minor leaguers worth talking about and nobody on the field worth keeping except Rowand, Lee and Konerko.
I'd like to Keep Buehrle if possible too, and Shingo... and Frank, Maybe Magglio, oh yeah and Garcia... I like to Talk about Ryan Sweeney, Brain MacCarthy, Gio Gonzales, Brian Anderson? One of the TWO Josh Fields and a couple other guys. I think Cotts, Adkins, Munoz, and that Felix guy could be adiquate on a team like ours with a little more seasoning, that Applies to Grili if he can cut down on the long balls... We have a decent Nucleus still, we do need help but I don't think it's as bad as you think.

jeremyb1
10-01-2004, 01:31 PM
I'm pretty outspoken that I prefer KW no longer serve as GM but I'd certainly prefer he stays over hiring Duqette.

santo=dorf
10-01-2004, 01:52 PM
I'm pretty outspoken that I prefer KW no longer serve as GM but I'd certainly prefer he stays over hiring Duqette.
I could only imagine as to what your reaction would be if the Sox traded Scott Kazmir...

CarlosMay'sThumb
10-01-2004, 01:59 PM
I'd like to Keep Buehrle if possible too, and Shingo... and Frank, Maybe Magglio, oh yeah and Garcia... I like to Talk about Ryan Sweeney, Brain MacCarthy, Gio Gonzales, Brian Anderson? One of the TWO Josh Fields and a couple other guys. I think Cotts, Adkins, Munoz, and that Felix guy could be adiquate on a team like ours with a little more seasoning, that Applies to Grili if he can cut down on the long balls... We have a decent Nucleus still, we do need help but I don't think it's as bad as you think.The reason I said "on the field" was I was excluding pitchers. I do think that there is a decent group of pitchers there...nothing special. Buerhle and Garcia are 2s, Contreras a 4 and Garland may be a 5. I don't understand why anybody thinks Cotts, Adkins, Munoz or "that Felix guy" are ready for the majors - they're not. I'd like to see if the rest of the league hasn't caught up to Shingo - by the end of the season it was pretty clear they had. And as much as you want to talk about McCarthy, Gonzales, Anderson and Sweeney - I think if you look at any independant view of the Sox minor leaguers you'll find they are, as a group, considered to be near the bottom.

Other than the wise-cracks, I'm still waiting for Randar to say something useful.:dtroll:

Randar68
10-01-2004, 02:48 PM
The reason I said "on the field" was I was excluding pitchers. I do think that there is a decent group of pitchers there...nothing special. Buerhle and Garcia are 2s, Contreras a 4 and Garland may be a 5. I don't understand why anybody thinks Cotts, Adkins, Munoz or "that Felix guy" are ready for the majors - they're not. I'd like to see if the rest of the league hasn't caught up to Shingo - by the end of the season it was pretty clear they had. And as much as you want to talk about McCarthy, Gonzales, Anderson and Sweeney - I think if you look at any independant view of the Sox minor leaguers you'll find they are, as a group, considered to be near the bottom.

Other than the wise-cracks, I'm still waiting for Randar to say something useful.:dtroll:
You've had absolutely zero "wise" anything so far.

The Sox had 5, count 'em, 5 prospects ranked in the top 20 in High A Carolina league, a very deep league this year. Anderson was ranked #11 in the Southern League despite only playing half a season there and being hampered by injury for the last month+.

Yes, "near the bottom" as you put it. *****. JIM FREAKING DUQUETTE?
:whatever:

Flight #24
10-01-2004, 03:29 PM
You can make excuses for him all you want, but he DID inherit a division winning team. And his bad trades have been huge whoppers. Todd Ritchie? Billy Koch? I don't even know how you have the nerve to use Wells as an example - the guy sucked for us. Marte was a 1 year wonder middle reliever who can only get lefties out.

And as for this team getting worse - 83/79, 81/81, 86/76 and 81/78 this year is mediocre crap year after year. And stop whining about the money he has to spend - somehow the Twins manage to beat our ass every year since he's been GM for less money. Watch out for the Indians and their 6 All Stars next year.

The fact is that this team is now in the worst position it's been in since the division winners in 2000. No prospects, no minor leaguers worth talking about and nobody on the field worth keeping except Rowand, Lee and Konerko.
There's a difference between "inheriting a division winning team", and "inheriting a team that had won a division". As you may recall, the division winners had such stalwarts as Parque, Sirotka, Eldred on it, none of whom were ever even serviceable major league starters again. KW didn't inherit that, he had to build a rotation from scratch and do it without letting the team suck for a year or 2.

And I'm yet to understand how it's KWs fault that he acquired David Wells, who has had 1 bad season in his last what - 6 or 7? And that was the year he was with the Sox. KW traded for a guy who wasn't injury prone, and who was a #1 caliber pitcher. He got hurt, and he's since come back strong (proving that his injury was something of a fluke). I guess if we traded for Mark Prior and he got hit by a car the next day that would be KW's fault too?

By the way - its hilarious that you seem to think that the minor league system is somehow worse off now than it was in 2000. I guess you buy into the high ranking back then, ignoring the fact that pretty much all the guys who earned that ranking have accomplished little to nothing. Unless you're a big fan of Crede, Borchard, Fogg, Ginter, Rauch, Wells, etc. Rowand and maybe Kip are about the only things from that group to accomplish anything, we have a bunch of highly ranked prospects but our systems worse off?

*****.

MRKARNO
10-01-2004, 03:35 PM
When you have an 100 million dollar payroll and you cant even turn that into a .500 team, you have no business being a GM, end of Story.

maurice
10-01-2004, 03:53 PM
Marte was a 1 year wonder middle reliever who can only get lefties out.Wow, this is the stupidest thing I've read here all week, despite some pretty stiff competition. Over the past three years combined, Marte has a 2.65 ERA and a .205 BAA. Against righties, his BAA is .223. This year, a down year, his BAA is .217.

Those crappy numbers really make me pine for Matt Guerrier.

CarlosMay'sThumb
10-01-2004, 04:09 PM
You've had absolutely zero "wise" anything so far.

The Sox had 5, count 'em, 5 prospects ranked in the top 20 in High A Carolina league, a very deep league this year. Anderson was ranked #11 in the Southern League despite only playing half a season there and being hampered by injury for the last month+.

Yes, "near the bottom" as you put it. *****. JIM FREAKING DUQUETTE?
:whatever:So...are you saying that you think that KW is a good GM because he's done absolutely nothing for 4 years with the major league club but he's got 5 good players in A ball?

And all I said was I would like JR to interview Duquette. Geesh.

DVsoxfan
10-01-2004, 04:43 PM
...Marte was a 1 year wonder middle reliever who can only get lefties out...
He's been one of the more consistent relievers we've had this year. Are you suggesting we get rid of him? He's a STUD reliever who's had an off year...he'll be back to stud form next year. Even Mota has had a tough go of things lately. Marte will be back to his form of being one of the best set-up men in MLB next year. You just wait and see.

OEO Magglio
10-01-2004, 04:48 PM
Wow, this thread is real dumb. Duquette is an awful gm.

Flight #24
10-01-2004, 04:48 PM
So...are you saying that you think that KW is a good GM because he's done absolutely nothing for 4 years with the major league club but he's got 5 good players in A ball?

And all I said was I would like JR to interview Duquette. Geesh.
That's not all you said, you proceeded to make wild comments about KW's performance.

As for that "nothing", I think Shingo, Marte, Wells, Loaiza, Colon, Garcia, Uribe, Rowand, would all disagree with you.

CarlosMay'sThumb
10-01-2004, 04:55 PM
That's not all you said, you proceeded to make wild comments about KW's performance.

As for that "nothing", I think Shingo, Marte, Wells, Loaiza, Colon, Garcia, Uribe, Rowand, would all disagree with you.The club has done nothing for 4 years. As for the wildly outstanding players you mentioned, Colon is gone and other than Garcia and Rowand I couldn't care less whether any of those guys disagreed with me. My guess is that Ritchie, Koch, Olivo, Reed, Miles, Fogg and Wells would agree with me, though.

Holy crap, you would think we were talking about a contending team here the way you guys defend Kenny. The guy is an absolute failure at his job, which is to win the division. The team has made no progress towards that goal in 4 years. And the whining about Maggs and Frank is ridiculous. Both were on the last 3 teams and they still went nowhere.

Flight #24
10-01-2004, 05:03 PM
Holy crap, you would think we were talking about a contending team here the way you guys defend Kenny. The guy is an absolute failure at his job, which is to win the division. The team has made no progress towards that goal in 4 years. And the whining about Maggs and Frank is ridiculous. Both were on the last 3 teams and they still went nowhere.
Ah yes, the ever popular "They didn't win with them in prior years, so they wouldn't have this year". Ignoring completely the fact that for most of the "prior years", the pitching staff was subpar, and we had no 2B or CF. And the one year we DID have good pitching we had a manager who couldn't manage his way out of his own bunghole.

But sure, 20 games lost in the 2d half by 1 or 2 runs wouldn't have changed much if we had Frank & maggs playing instead of Borchard/Everett/Perez/Gload....

CarlosMay'sThumb
10-01-2004, 05:04 PM
Wow, this is the stupidest thing I've read here all week, despite some pretty stiff competition. Over the past three years combined, Marte has a 2.65 ERA and a .205 BAA. Against righties, his BAA is .223. This year, a down year, his BAA is .217.

Those crappy numbers really make me pine for Matt Guerrier.
Marte's numbers ARE good - although his BAA for righties is .259 this year. I just don't think that getting Damaso Marte is such a huge deal that it's enough for KW to keep his job when the team has made NO progress towards winning its very weak division in 4 years, despite the fact that the Sox have the largest payroll.

CarlosMay'sThumb
10-01-2004, 05:07 PM
Ah yes, the ever popular "They didn't win with them in prior years, so they wouldn't have this year". Ignoring completely the fact that for most of the "prior years", the pitching staff was subpar, and we had no 2B or CF. And the one year we DID have good pitching we had a manager who couldn't manage his way out of his own bunghole.

But sure, 20 games lost in the 2d half by 1 or 2 runs wouldn't have changed much if we had Frank & maggs playing instead of Borchard/Everett/Perez/Gload....Ahem...who's fault is it that the "pitching staff was subpar and we had no 2B or CF" and "we had a manager who couldn't manage his way out of his own bunghole"?

The buck stops.........

MRKARNO
10-01-2004, 06:32 PM
The club has done nothing for 4 years. As for the wildly outstanding players you mentioned, Colon is gone and other than Garcia and Rowand I couldn't care less whether any of those guys disagreed with me. My guess is that Ritchie, Koch, Olivo, Reed, Miles, Fogg and Wells would agree with me, though.

Holy crap, you would think we were talking about a contending team here the way you guys defend Kenny. The guy is an absolute failure at his job, which is to win the division. The team has made no progress towards that goal in 4 years. And the whining about Maggs and Frank is ridiculous. Both were on the last 3 teams and they still went nowhere.
Well Duquette would be a ton worse than KW has been and KW hasnt been all that bad (especially compared to Duquette). It's laughable that you are talking about how KW has failed to win the division, yet Duquette has finished last with a team with a top 3 payroll. Duquette was probably the worst GM in all of baseball. KW is a lot better than that.

bc2k
10-01-2004, 11:04 PM
I know he has made some good moves, but to me he's just been throwing mud at the wall for 4 years and some of it has stuck. There's absolutely no plan here or the plan changes year to year. That's a really good point CMT, one I hadn't thought of. The Sox don't have an organizational plan, it appears like they just plan for the current year and make due with what they have to work with at the time. I believe their goal each year is to build a team that can win the AL Central with a little luck from career years from their core players and lightning in a bottle with the fill-ins. Their objective is not to win the Series but to draw as many fans as possible, and they want to do so by spending as little as possible to minimize financial risks if they don't contend, and thus, fans don't show up.

I was a KW backer for a long time, but the Reed/Olivo for Garcia trade, plus the fact that he hasn't won an AL Central title in 4 years of effort, is why I want a new GM. I'm not using hindsight in the Garcia trade, I thought it was a mistake the day I heard it. Anyway, I don't think hindsight is a bad thing because tangible results are the best way to judge a man's performance. 0 for 4 in the AL Central is tangible enough for me.

gosox41
10-02-2004, 10:48 AM
That's a really good point CMT, one I hadn't thought of. The Sox don't have an organizational plan, it appears like they just plan for the current year and make due with what they have to work with at the time. I believe their goal each year is to build a team that can win the AL Central with a little luck from career years from their core players and lightning in a bottle with the fill-ins. Their objective is not to win the Series but to draw as many fans as possible, and they want to do so by spending as little as possible to minimize financial risks if they don't contend, and thus, fans don't show up.

I was a KW backer for a long time, but the Reed/Olivo for Garcia trade, plus the fact that he hasn't won an AL Central title in 4 years of effort, is why I want a new GM. I'm not using hindsight in the Garcia trade, I thought it was a mistake the day I heard it. Anyway, I don't think hindsight is a bad thing because tangible results are the best way to judge a man's performance. 0 for 4 in the AL Central is tangible enough for me.
First, let me start off by saying that I am impressed that this Sox team is going to have 82+ wins. If someone told me at the bignning of the year that Frank and Magglio were going to miss a combine 200 games, I would have thought things were a lot worse.

I give KW credit for this. But I also think a lot more of the credit goes to Ozzie for the simple reasons that he kept his players focused and playing hard.

But it is time for KW to go. And no, I am certainly not endorsing Duquette. But the fact is that the Sox have outspent Minnesota the last 3 seasons and have finsihed second to them the last 3 seasons. There are many reasons for this, but a lot of it goes towards KW.

While it's refreshing to have a GM nto sit on his hands, I think in some situations, going by the theory that no trade is too big or too stupid is a bad idea. He has mismanaged the payroll he was given by overpaying unproductive players (PK in 2003, Valentin in 04 come to mind) while trading good players (Foulke and Durham to name 2) while not getting anywhere near fair value in return. (For those who don't know how I feel about KW, go read my posts in the time frame the trade was made to see that this isn't hindsight.)

As for the minor leagues, it's good to have a lot of lower level prospects. It gives us fans hope, but it's still a long road to the majors. One would think after running4 (or 5 drafts depending on who you believe,) KW would have produced a player that made a positive impact on the team. He hasn't. The fact that in all those trades KW has made the last 2 seasons the only significant players we lost are Reed (a KW draftee) and Rauch (a Shu draftee) shows two things: 1. KW is aggressive and trying to win now, which like I said is refreshing and 2. that the Sox didn't have much of a farm system to begin with if that;s all the gave up in trades and there's no significant prospects in the upper levels of the minors.

Trades like Garcia were made out of desperation. Because of an inability to find a fifth starting pitcher (not a #5 starter) the Sox were forced to overpay for a good pitcher. So give KW credit for finding a very good pitcher and getting him in and signed, but then again maybe the Sox wouldn't have given up as much or found someone else if in June they basically weren't throwing in the towel every fifth game.

So it goes both ways. I do give KW credit for this season. Losing Thomas and Ordonez hurts and this team still finished above .500. I would love to see a new GM come in, but I don't think Duquette is the answer.

But I do have some hope for next year. A lot of the bad contracts KW signed players to are coming off the books. The fact is the Sox didn't do much in the 2003-04 offseaon because they were bogged down with bid contracts that KW signed players to. If KW were smart, he'd trade PK to free up more money. And as long as he doesn't do anything too stupid, I am optimistic about next season. Of course with KW, that is a long shot and if he does everyone will hear about it from me when the deal is made.


Bob

oldcomiskey
10-02-2004, 12:18 PM
You can make excuses for him all you want, but he DID inherit a division winning team. And his bad trades have been huge whoppers. Todd Ritchie? Billy Koch? I don't even know how you have the nerve to use Wells as an example - the guy sucked for us. Marte was a 1 year wonder middle reliever who can only get lefties out.

And as for this team getting worse - 83/79, 81/81, 86/76 and 81/78 this year is mediocre crap year after year. And stop whining about the money he has to spend - somehow the Twins manage to beat our ass every year since he's been GM for less money. Watch out for the Indians and their 6 All Stars next year.

The fact is that this team is now in the worst position it's been in since the division winners in 2000. No prospects, no minor leaguers worth talking about and nobody on the field worth keeping except Rowand, Lee and Konerko.
excuse me, I wasnt gonna get involved in the babble about Kw, but you lost me when you said marte was a one year wonder and Wells was hurt and there was no way we were gonna re sign foulke. And if youll think back you take out the first half of 2000 and we sucked then too

Wealz
10-02-2004, 12:18 PM
Williams has turned Durham, Foulke, and K. Wells into Adkins, Cotts, and Wilson Valdez and about $10M in wasted payroll. Contrary to some of the things that have been written Williams had chips to play with the 2000 team, he just played them wrong.

oldcomiskey
10-02-2004, 12:19 PM
Williams has turned Durham, Foulke, and K. Wells into Adkins, Cotts, and Wilson Valdez and about $10M in wasted payroll. Contrary to some of the things that have been written Williams had chips to play with the 2000 team, he just played them wrong.
what chips do you refer to?

oldcomiskey
10-02-2004, 12:29 PM
The club has done nothing for 4 years. As for the wildly outstanding players you mentioned, Colon is gone and other than Garcia and Rowand I couldn't care less whether any of those guys disagreed with me. My guess is that Ritchie, Koch, Olivo, Reed, Miles, Fogg and Wells would agree with me, though.

Holy crap, you would think we were talking about a contending team here the way you guys defend Kenny. The guy is an absolute failure at his job, which is to win the division. The team has made no progress towards that goal in 4 years. And the whining about Maggs and Frank is ridiculous. Both were on the last 3 teams and they still went nowhere.
perhaps you want Colon and Jerry Manuel back

CarlosMay'sThumb
10-02-2004, 01:21 PM
perhaps you want Colon and Jerry Manuel backManuel I could do without, but I would take Colon back in a heartbeat. I know is ERA is not good this year, but 18 wins and over 200 innings? You bet.

As far as re-signing Foulke - why is everybody so certain that another GM would not have re-signed him? He should have been re-signed.

And Marte had a great season last year and a good season this year. But only us Sox fans would get all excited about a Damaso Marte - there's just so little else to look forward to that somehow a middle reliever seems a bright spot.

Flight #24
10-02-2004, 02:24 PM
Ahem...who's fault is it that the "pitching staff was subpar and we had no 2B or CF" and "we had a manager who couldn't manage his way out of his own bunghole"?

The buck stops.........
You're confusing 2 different points. Who's fault it is that we had holes in prior years has nothing to do wiht whether the Sox would have won the division or at least contended to the end with a healthy Frank & Maggs (which was your point I was referring to).

And as for the manager, it's not KWs fault Manuel sucked. He didn't hire him or have the power to fire him until this offseason.

Flight #24
10-02-2004, 02:26 PM
Manuel I could do without, but I would take Colon back in a heartbeat. I know is ERA is not good this year, but 18 wins and over 200 innings? You bet.

As far as re-signing Foulke - why is everybody so certain that another GM would not have re-signed him? He should have been re-signed.

And Marte had a great season last year and a good season this year. But only us Sox fans would get all excited about a Damaso Marte - there's just so little else to look forward to that somehow a middle reliever seems a bright spot.
Because it wasn't about a desire on KWs part not to resign him, it was about $$$. The Sox weren't going to pay Foulke a large, long-term deal. That's a decision from ownership, so unless by "another GM", you mean "another GM and owner", you're just plain wrong.

TimoPerez
10-02-2004, 02:28 PM
isn't Duquette the guy who turned the mets into a $100M consistent losing team?
No. That was Steve Phillips. Jim Duquette is the guy who traded David Weathers for Richard Hidalgo.

Duquette was totally against trading Kazmir. He was pretty much forced to trade him by the owner, Fred Wilpon. He wanted to rebuild and said that Kazmir was untouchable, but Wilpon wanted to make a deal because the Mets were only a couple of games out of first place at the time.

Jjav829
10-02-2004, 04:30 PM
what chips do you refer to?The brilliant pitching staff that included James Baldwin, Mike Sirotka, Jim Parque, and Cal Eldred as the top 4 starters. It's really quite simple. If KW traded Baldwin for Jason Schmidt, Sirotka for Curt Schilling, Parque for Roy Halladay, and Eldred for say Ben Sheets, we'd have been in the playoffs the past four years and possibly won a World Series. Instead he let those 4 aces go for nothing. Imagine how good we'd be if KW had kept that non-flukey, dynasty in the making team together for this year. :rolleyes:

DVsoxfan
10-02-2004, 04:50 PM
[QUOTE=CarlosMay'sThumb]Manuel I could do without, but I would take Colon back in a heartbeat. I know is ERA is not good this year, but 18 wins and over 200 innings? You bet.[QUOTE]

Colon's ERA would be about 8.00 at the Cell. He'd probably have given up about 10 more homeruns as well. I'm glad we have Freddy, and not Colon.

oldcomiskey
10-02-2004, 06:32 PM
[QUOTE=CarlosMay'sThumb]Manuel I could do without, but I would take Colon back in a heartbeat. I know is ERA is not good this year, but 18 wins and over 200 innings? You bet.[QUOTE]

Colon's ERA would be about 8.00 at the Cell. He'd probably have given up about 10 more homeruns as well. I'm glad we have Freddy, and not Colon.
my point exactly. I remember the excitement I had when Bart was here, now Im glad hes somewhere else--kinda the same feeling I had about Albert Belle

oldcomiskey
10-02-2004, 06:34 PM
Manuel I could do without, but I would take Colon back in a heartbeat. I know is ERA is not good this year, but 18 wins and over 200 innings? You bet.

As far as re-signing Foulke - why is everybody so certain that another GM would not have re-signed him? He should have been re-signed.

And Marte had a great season last year and a good season this year. But only us Sox fans would get all excited about a Damaso Marte - there's just so little else to look forward to that somehow a middle reliever seems a bright spot.
Im sure no GM for the Sox wouldve brought him back

CarlosMay'sThumb
10-02-2004, 07:20 PM
Because it wasn't about a desire on KWs part not to resign him, it was about $$$. The Sox weren't going to pay Foulke a large, long-term deal. That's a decision from ownership, so unless by "another GM", you mean "another GM and owner", you're just plain wrong.Do you have inside information or are you just making this stuff up as you go along? :rolleyes:

I think it was just as likely, if not more likely, that KW made the wrong decision after a somewhat mediocre 2nd half of the season for Foulke in 2002. KW decided that Foulke was done and went out and got Koch.

gosox41
10-03-2004, 09:09 AM
You're confusing 2 different points. Who's fault it is that we had holes in prior years has nothing to do wiht whether the Sox would have won the division or at least contended to the end with a healthy Frank & Maggs (which was your point I was referring to).

And as for the manager, it's not KWs fault Manuel sucked. He didn't hire him or have the power to fire him until this offseason.
But it was KW who extended Manuel's contract as one of his first moves when he was made GM.


Bob

gosox41
10-03-2004, 09:10 AM
Because it wasn't about a desire on KWs part not to resign him, it was about $$$. The Sox weren't going to pay Foulke a large, long-term deal. That's a decision from ownership, so unless by "another GM", you mean "another GM and owner", you're just plain wrong.
The Sox probably weren't going to pay Foulke. But that doesn't mean he should have been traded for much lesser players in a year the team was trying to win.

That move alone kept the Sox out of the 2003 playoffs.


Bob