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DVsoxfan
09-29-2004, 08:48 PM
According to MLB.com, Buerhle deserves consideration for the Cy Young award. Although it is obvious that he does not stand a chance, it is encouraging that he is getting recognition. I say the award goes to Johan Santana, that guy is awesome. Schilling has more wins, but Santana's season has been amazing even with the horrible start he had. Here's the article:

Aces high in AL Cy Young race
Sparkling Santana could hold edge over Schilling
By John Schlegel / MLB.com
http://mlb.mlb.com/images/trans.gifhttp://mlb.mlb.com/images/trans.gifhttp://mlb.mlb.com/images/trans.gifJohan Santana has allowed three or fewer runs in 21 consecutive starts.


A few years back, a younger lefty in his breakout year was up against a veteran right-hander in the race for the American League Cy Young Award.

The veteran won that battle in 2001. New York's Roger Clemens won his sixth Cy Young honor, besting Oakland's Mark Mulder.

This time, the young lefty is Minnesota's Johan Santana, a 25-year-old who has built himself an excellent case for winning the Cy Young over several right-handed veterans.

And while Mulder merely had comparable stats to Clemens in 2001, Santana has set himself apart statistically in 2004.

Santana enters his last start one win shy of matching Boston's Curt Schilling for the Major League lead -- and that far away from the pitching Triple Crown in the American League. The ace of the AL Central champs, Santana leads the league in both ERA and strikeouts and has been consistently excellent down the stretch.

But the veteran right-handers have some strong credentials, too.

Schilling has made a fine case for himself with his 21 victories, and Boston teammate Pedro Martinez -- winner of three Cy Young Awards in the AL and four overall -- has put himself in consideration as well. And perhaps more than any season before, Yankees closer Mariano Rivera has to be considered a top candidate, for his performance has made him the most valuable pitcher on the league's best team.

Mulder, who started the All-Star game for the AL, had quite the run until some struggles down the stretch.

Here's a breakdown of the top candidates, listed in alphabetical order:

PEDRO MARTINEZ, RED SOX, RHP
2004 Stats: 16-8, 3.78, 222 K
Inside the numbers: His Aug. 12 shutout of Tampa Bay was Martinez's first since Aug. 29, 2000.
Comment: OK, so Martinez's performance this season hasn't equaled the seasons when he won his other four Cy Young Awards. But Martinez has been healthy and steady while going beyond 30 starts for the first time since 1998, and he's among the top two or three in the league in opponents' batting average (.232, third) and strikeouts (222, second).

MARK MULDER, ATHLETICS, LHP
2004 Stats: 17-7, 4.31 ERA, 5 CG
Inside the numbers: Mulder leads the Majors with 36 opponents' double plays, the most by a pitcher in A's history.
Comment: Entering September, Mulder was building a case to break through after that 2001 near-miss. But an 0-3 record and 8.10 ERA in five September starts has been uncharacteristic, to say the least, and detrimental to the A's playoff run, to say the most.

MARIANO RIVERA, YANKEES, RHP
2004 Stats: 4-2, 2.02 ERA, 51/55 SVO
Inside the numbers: Rivera notched an American League record for fewest team games needed to reach 40 saves, with 116.
Comment: Maybe Eric Gagne set too high a standard for a closer to win the Cy Young. Rivera wasn't perfect and didn't set any consecutive saves records this year, but he was every bit the rock the Yankees have come to expect -- and they needed him this year, big time.

JOHAN SANTANA, TWINS, LHP
2004 Stats: 20-6, 2.62 ERA, 260 K, 0.92 WHIP
Inside the numbers: Santana has allowed three or fewer runs in 21 consecutive starts, the longest streak since Dwight Gooden's 24 in 1985.
Comment: Imagine if he'd actually gotten off to a decent start. We might be looking at one of the greatest seasons of all time. But Santana has done everything possible to separate himself from the pack since going 2-4 with a 5.50 ERA over his first 12 starts. Since then, nobody's been even close.

CURT SCHILLING, RED SOX, RHP
2004 Stats: 21-6, 3.26 ERA, 203 K
Inside the numbers: Schilling leads the AL with 5.8 strikeouts per walk.
Comment: Twice a runner-up to then-teammate Randy Johnson in Arizona, Schilling has another strikeout lefty in his way this year. But Schilling might have put together his best bid for the award this season -- perhaps not quite as dominating statistically as his 2001 season, but particularly impressive in his first AL season since 1990. Others up for consideration: Mark Buehrle, White Sox; Francisco Cordero, Rangers; Tim Hudson, A's; Joe Nathan, Twins

shagar69
09-29-2004, 08:51 PM
that is probably the funniest thing i have heard all year!! what the HELL are these guys smoking! buehrle has been an average SP this year!

MRKARNO
09-29-2004, 08:51 PM
AL pitchers with higher VORPs than Buehrle:

Santana
Schilling
Bradke
Westbrook
Kelvim Escobar
Pedro

So no, it's not that far-fetched that he's a fringe candidate for Cy Young

HomeFish
09-29-2004, 08:53 PM
"Fringe candidate for Cy Young" is a good description of Buerhle's career.

nodiggity59
09-29-2004, 08:56 PM
Buerhle's ERA is SO inflated this year b/c he's a pitcher who let's hitters get themselves out. Except, it hasn't worked this year b/c the Cell has become a launching pad. As has been said, his road ERA is under 3.

Bottom line, Buerhle is automatically not considered an ace around here, which is wrong. Just b/c he's not one of the top 5 pitchers in the game doesn't mean he can't win a big game. If we had a playoff game and MB was starting, I would feel we had a chance to win no matter who he faced. We might be underdogs (against Santana, Schilling), butwe would always have a chance to win no matter who it was.

nodiggity59
09-29-2004, 08:57 PM
"Fringe candidate for Cy Young" is a good description of Buerhle's career.
I hope that's not a knock?

MRKARNO
09-29-2004, 08:58 PM
"Fringe candidate for Cy Young" is a good description of Buerhle's career.
Which isnt exactly so terrible.

HomeFish
09-29-2004, 09:00 PM
No, it isn't bad at all. Except for Freddy, no other Sox pitcher can say that.

WHarris13
09-29-2004, 09:02 PM
Whoever disagrees with Buehrle being a finge Cy Young cantidate doesn't know what they're saying.

His ERA is sooo inflated because of the Cell.
He is Top 10 in quality starts.

MRKARNO
09-29-2004, 09:05 PM
Buerhle's ERA is SO inflated this year b/c he's a pitcher who let's hitters get themselves out. Except, it hasn't worked this year b/c the Cell has become a launching pad. As has been said, his road ERA is under 3.

Bottom line, Buerhle is automatically not considered an ace around here, which is wrong. Just b/c he's not one of the top 5 pitchers in the game doesn't mean he can't win a big game. If we had a playoff game and MB was starting, I would feel we had a chance to win no matter who he faced. We might be underdogs (against Santana, Schilling), butwe would always have a chance to win no matter who it was.
I agree totally. The home/road splits are ridiculous. For every homer he's giving up on the road, he's given up two at home. The eleven more homers give up at home this year than the road (22 and 11) are about the same amount as the difference between his ML average and how many he's given up in total this year. Assuming that the average home yields 1.80 earned runs, had he given up 10 less homers this year, his ERA this year would have been 3.31. Consider that for a minute when evaluating Buehrle this year

OEO Magglio
09-29-2004, 09:18 PM
Santana is having one of the best seasons in recent history, I don't think there are really any other candidates.

Huisj
09-29-2004, 09:20 PM
dang, looking at santana's stats, i don't know how this guy can not win it. 0.92 WHIP? a billion k's? ERA below 2.5? sheesh

MRKARNO
09-29-2004, 09:27 PM
If Santana doesn't win the Cy Young, the system needs to be reformed and if it isn't, the award will be delegitimized in my opinion.

Flight #24
09-29-2004, 10:02 PM
Bottom line, Buerhle is automatically not considered an ace around here, which is wrong. Just b/c he's not one of the top 5 pitchers in the game doesn't mean he can't win a big game. If we had a playoff game and MB was starting, I would feel we had a chance to win no matter who he faced. We might be underdogs (against Santana, Schilling), butwe would always have a chance to win no matter who it was.
Change "around here" to "by FOBBs" and "Buehrle" to "Garcia", and you pretty much sum up an estimated 57Gb of server space! (about 10% of which can probably be tied back to me)

batmanZoSo
09-29-2004, 10:20 PM
that is probably the funniest thing i have heard all year!! what the HELL are these guys smoking! buehrle has been an average SP this year!

Yeah, it's average to win 15 games and post a 4.0 era in the number one hitters park in baseball. Someone posted not too long ago that only Cy himself, Johan Santana has a lower ERA on the road. So, basically if you put Buehrle in a pitcher's park or even an average park he's right there with anyone. The question is, what are YOU smoking? And can I have some?

shagar69
09-29-2004, 10:23 PM
The question is, what are YOU smoking? And can I have some?
some fine ass dank! :)

nodiggity59
09-29-2004, 11:16 PM
Also, I think Buerhle is #2 in all of baseball for IP.

The Cheat
09-30-2004, 01:28 AM
Mark Buehrle's park adjusted ERA - 3.78
Mark Mulder's park adjusted ERA - 4.24

One everyone and their mother considers a Cy Young candidate and the other isn't. Why?

Buehrle bests mulder in almost every category but wins.

MRKARNO
09-30-2004, 09:27 AM
Mark Buehrle's park adjusted ERA - 3.78
Mark Mulder's park adjusted ERA - 4.24

One everyone and their mother considers a Cy Young candidate and the other isn't. Why?

Buehrle bests mulder in almost every category but wins.

Buehrle is a better version of Mark Mulder who pitches in a much better hitters park while Mulder pitches in a pitchers' park. Compare career stats and the only area where Mulder bests Buehrle is home runs allowed, a reflection on their home parks (and wins too, but we all know that's not a good way to properly evaluate pitchers)

wdelaney72
09-30-2004, 12:40 PM
:threadsucks

Coors field Midwest or not, Buehrle, has does not belong in consideration.

nodiggity59
09-30-2004, 12:44 PM
:threadsucks

Coors field Midwest or not, Buehrle, has does not belong in consideration.
How can you blindly ignore park factors when comparing Mulder and Buerhle? How?

I'd like to see how you could explain the adjusted ERAs of Mulder and Buerhle and claim Buerhle isn't one of the best in the AL.

MRKARNO
09-30-2004, 01:33 PM
:threadsucks

Coors field Midwest or not, Buehrle, has does not belong in consideration.

No one is saying that he should win, just that he should be considered a fringe candidate. Quite honestly, the only person who belongs in serious consideration is Santana.

idseer
09-30-2004, 01:46 PM
[QUOTE=nodiggity59]How can you blindly ignore park factors when comparing Mulder and Buerhle? How?[QUOTE]

is it possible some people think things like "park factors" are pretty much over-rated made up bs and therefore don't take them very seriously?

balke
09-30-2004, 02:22 PM
All I know is Mulder and Buerhle are both great pitchers. Two quickest pitchers in the league. Any season, one could have better numbers than the other. Pitching in Oakland is an advantage for pitchers. I don't know how important Park Factors are, but Heat, and the shadows in Oakland day games help the pitchers out immensely.


Sox have other factors contributing to poor ERA's. Poorly timed defensive errors, a botched mid-season 4-man rotation, Ozzie Guillen trying to "manage" our pitchers, and a bullpen that is hard to trust.

I don't think Buerhle was Cy Young like. Even first half of the season, he was kinda up and down, but not terribly amazing. But he did show great stuff out there. He was a top pitcher this season, but not Cy Young worthy.

MRKARNO
09-30-2004, 02:41 PM
[QUOTE=nodiggity59]How can you blindly ignore park factors when comparing Mulder and Buerhle? How?[QUOTE]

is it possible some people think things like "park factors" are pretty much over-rated made up bs and therefore don't take them very seriously?

It's possible that some people are ignorant to facts, of course it is. The fact is not all parks are created equal and it's tougher to pitch in US Cellular Field than most other parks because of dimensions, the frequency of the wind blowing out and how well the ball carries in general. You will notice a lot of home runs which barely clear the wall by 10 feet or less which might not make it out in other parks. They still count though. It is impossible to evaluate a pitcher without taking the park he pitches in into account.

ewokpelts
09-30-2004, 02:49 PM
According to MLB.com, Buerhle deserves consideration for the Cy Young award. Although it is obvious that he does not stand a chance, it is encouraging that he is getting recognition. I say the award goes to Johan Santana, that guy is awesome. Schilling has more wins, but Santana's season has been amazing even with the horrible start he had. Here's the article:gee...you and dumb-ass ozzie agree.....do you think torii's play was clean too?
Gene

PatK
09-30-2004, 03:06 PM
If Santana doesn't win the Cy Young, the system needs to be reformed and if it isn't, the award will be delegitimized in my opinion.

I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't get it, seeing as how Loaiza didn't get it last year.

The only thing Halladay had over him was a couple of more wins. Esteban had a better ERA and led the league in K's.

balke
09-30-2004, 03:07 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't get it, seeing as how Loaiza didn't get it last year.

The only thing Halladay had over him was a couple of more wins. Esteban had a better ERA and led the league in K's.
Loaiza lost the Cy Young for himself. It was his til he had 3 bad outings in a row at seasons end.

Nellie_Fox
09-30-2004, 03:37 PM
Loaiza lost the Cy Young for himself. It was his til he had 3 bad outings in a row at seasons end.You are correct sir.

idseer
09-30-2004, 04:18 PM
It's possible that some people are ignorant to facts, of course it is. The fact is not all parks are created equal and it's tougher to pitch in US Cellular Field than most other parks because of dimensions, the frequency of the wind blowing out and how well the ball carries in general. You will notice a lot of home runs which barely clear the wall by 10 feet or less which might not make it out in other parks. They still count though. It is impossible to evaluate a pitcher without taking the park he pitches in into account.facts huh? SHOW me your facts.
while i understand that there are differences in parks i have searched and found pretty much various ways of computing 'park factors'. who has the facts and who doesn't? it seems a very unprecise science if you ask me.
while there are general conclusions you could try to make i seriously question whether you can take an individual player and predict his stats in any park.
to back this i checked a few stats myself. i looked up some colorado players and their stats vs what happened when they played elsewhere.
1. vinny castillo did about the same when he left.
2. henry blanko ditto.
3. jeff cirillo ditto
4. juan uribe's power totals went UP when he came here.
5. ellis burk's years at colorado were about the same as they were anyplace else with the exception of one year (and he has to have a best year SOMEwhere)
6. galarraga did about the same also.
there was only one case where i found a player did markedly better there than elsewhere. i'm sure there are more but i'm sure there are more cases of where it's just not true.
park factors perhaps work when applied to large samples over several years but you cannot apply it to individual players.

to say that buehrle would do much better somewhere else and paul would do much worse is just so much hogwash imo.

nodiggity59
09-30-2004, 04:59 PM
to say that buehrle would do much better somewhere else and paul would do much worse is just so much hogwash imo.
It makes perfect sense for Buerhle b/c he is and has been a contact pitcher - ie he allows hitters to get themselves out. While this allows a number of more hits, it decreases walks and pitch counts if used effectively.

However, the bandbox nature of the Cell this year is bad for a pitcher who allows contact b/c a greater number of fly balls he gives up become home runs. This would not be true as much for a strikeout/groundball pitcher.

And before you say Buerhle should just change, let me remind you that this style has lead to Beurhle having 4 straight seasons with 14 (should be 15) wins or more. Also, his pitche efficiency (ie not giving up a ton of walks or going for the strikeout) has allowed him to pitch an extraordianry amount of inning. He consistently ranks in the top of the AL every year.

The only thing that is bad about Buerhle are some of his stats, which ARE affected by the Cell b/c of his pitching style. However, these discrepancies cannot deny the fact that he is one of the premier pitchers in the American league and, as I've stated before, perfectly capable of beating anybody on any day.

MRKARNO
09-30-2004, 05:01 PM
facts huh? SHOW me your facts.
while i understand that there are differences in parks i have searched and found pretty much various ways of computing 'park factors'. who has the facts and who doesn't? it seems a very unprecise science if you ask me.
while there are general conclusions you could try to make i seriously question whether you can take an individual player and predict his stats in any park.
to back this i checked a few stats myself. i looked up some colorado players and their stats vs what happened when they played elsewhere.
1. vinny castillo did about the same when he left.
2. henry blanko ditto.
3. jeff cirillo ditto
4. juan uribe's power totals went UP when he came here.
5. ellis burk's years at colorado were about the same as they were anyplace else with the exception of one year (and he has to have a best year SOMEwhere)
6. galarraga did about the same also.
there was only one case where i found a player did markedly better there than elsewhere. i'm sure there are more but i'm sure there are more cases of where it's just not true.
park factors perhaps work when applied to large samples over several years but you cannot apply it to individual players.

to say that buehrle would do much better somewhere else and paul would do much worse is just so much hogwash imo.
Well there are always going to be exceptions to the rule because some hitters leave good hitters' ballparks and just happen to become better hitters after they leave. That is certainly going to happen. But there is a general trend of hitters hitting more in Coors Field and pitchers pitching better in Dodger Stadium. These are general trends to which I think we can both agree. It's not necessarily going to be that one particular hitter is going to hit better because they move, but is it more likely? Most certainly. The thing about Buehrle is that it's so blatantly obvious that pitching in this park with the new conditions this year hurt his ERA. He gave up 11 more homers at home than the road, setting a career high in homers yielded in the process (by 9). His ERA at home was 2 and a quarter runs worse than his road ERA, the latter of which was one of the best in all of baseball (better than everyone but Johan the last time I checked). I do agree with your point that park factors are an inexact science because you could put the Yankees at Dodger stadium and have a higher PF than if you put the Diamondbacks there, but it's clear that there are obvious general trends and Buehrle was a victim of the ballpark this year.

DVsoxfan
09-30-2004, 05:45 PM
gee...you and dumb-ass ozzie agree.....do you think torii's play was clean too?
Gene
What am I agreeing with?...just curious. I never said that Torii's play was clean, that was a cheap shot and it sucks that we still have to talk about it, because that means that the Torii and the Twins got the last word...with that hit, and by winning the division.

idseer
09-30-2004, 05:52 PM
And before you say Buerhle should just change, let me remind you that this style has lead to Beurhle having 4 straight seasons with 14 (should be 15) wins or more.
why? do you assume he'd have won that last start he gave up? i think your bias is showing a little. :smile:

idseer
09-30-2004, 06:07 PM
Well there are always going to be exceptions to the rule because some hitters leave good hitters' ballparks and just happen to become better hitters after they leave. That is certainly going to happen. But there is a general trend of hitters hitting more in Coors Field and pitchers pitching better in Dodger Stadium. These are general trends to which I think we can both agree. It's not necessarily going to be that one particular hitter is going to hit better because they move, but is it more likely? Most certainly. The thing about Buehrle is that it's so blatantly obvious that pitching in this park with the new conditions this year hurt his ERA. He gave up 11 more homers at home than the road, setting a career high in homers yielded in the process (by 9). His ERA at home was 2 and a quarter runs worse than his road ERA, the latter of which was one of the best in all of baseball (better than everyone but Johan the last time I checked). I do agree with your point that park factors are an inexact science because you could put the Yankees at Dodger stadium and have a higher PF than if you put the Diamondbacks there, but it's clear that there are obvious general trends and Buehrle was a victim of the ballpark this year.
i DO agree there is a general trend. it's the singling out of a particular player i have a problem with. also, i think you ignore the fact that mark has done worse every year regarding k's vs bb's so perhaps it's not just that the park dimensions are affecting him as much as you say. you say his era was 2.25 higher at home, yet that wasn't true for garland (.58) or schoe (.82). maybe mark is uncomfortable at home for some other reason. his era the year before was .98 BETTER at home ... in his worst year. an over 3.00 difference in one year is not all the park in my opinion.
no ... i think the reasons are more probably many factors.


don't get me wrong, i think mark is a fine pitcher. but i do not think he's an elite pitcher. i also think he'd be about the same anywhere he pitched.

MRKARNO
09-30-2004, 06:16 PM
i DO agree there is a general trend. it's the singling out of a particular player i have a problem with. also, i think you ignore the fact that mark has done worse every year regarding k's vs bb's so perhaps it's not just that the park dimensions are affecting him as much as you say. you say his era was 2.25 higher at home, yet that wasn't true for garland (.58) or schoe (.82). maybe mark is uncomfortable at home for some other reason. his era the year before was .98 BETTER at home ... in his worst year. an over 3.00 difference in one year is not all the park in my opinion.
no ... i think the reasons are more probably many factors.


don't get me wrong, i think mark is a fine pitcher. but i do not think he's an elite pitcher. i also think he'd be about the same anywhere he pitched.
We agree to dissagree...

kitekrazy
09-30-2004, 11:31 PM
I didn't see Mark B. show up for a big game this season. Didn't he get an awful lot of run support this season?

I don't think he is as good as some Sox fans would like to think. He'll probably get worse as long as he is around Cooper.

He can be real impressive against teams like KC.

Mohoney
09-30-2004, 11:52 PM
I didn't see Mark B. show up for a big game this season.Well, I remember him pitching his heart out on the 4th of July at Piggley. We all know what kind of run support we got that day.

He'll probably get worse as long as he is around Cooper.This, I actually agree with. I think Cooper needs to go.

santo=dorf
09-30-2004, 11:54 PM
Didn't he get an awful lot of run support this season?

Boy I hate it when people assume Buehrle gets alot of his wins because of run support. During one stretch he beat Baltimore 15-0, Twins 11-0,and the Rangers 9-0 ALL AT USCF!. What difference does it make if he gets 9, 11, or 15 runs if he doesn't give up any? Buehrle also pitched 9 IP giving up 2 ER against Mike Maroth (of course, it's always the ****ing Tigers!) but he got a ND. He also had a 2-1 lead @Oakland until Koch decided to blow it in the ninth, and pitched 7 strong innings against the scrubs while the Sox couldn't get a single run off of Glendon ****ing Rusch. In the game in which he nearly threw a perfect game, the Sox scored 14 runs. How can you hold that against him?



:hawk

"And there goes post number 1000! You can put it on the board, YES!"

batmanZoSo
10-01-2004, 12:02 AM
Boy I hate it when people assume Buehrle gets alot of his wins because of run support. During one stretch he beat Baltimore 15-0, Twins 11-0,and the Rangers 9-0 ALL AT USCF!. What difference does it make if he gets 9, 11, or 15 runs if he doesn't give up any? Buehrle also pitched 9 IP giving up 2 ER against Mike Maroth (of course, it's always the ****ing Tigers!) but he got a ND. He also had a 2-1 lead @Oakland until Koch decided to blow it in the ninth, and pitched 7 strong innings against the scrubs while the Sox couldn't get a single run off of Glendon ****ing Rusch. In the game in which he nearly threw a perfect game, the Sox scored 14 runs. How can you hold that against him?



:hawk

"And there goes post number 1000! You can put it on the board, YES!"


You're bloody well right. His RPG is totally overrated. Like always, he should have more wins than he received. Only a few times did the Sox offense pick him up and give him a lucky win.

SSN721
10-01-2004, 08:44 AM
You're bloody well right. His RPG is totally overrated. Like always, he should have more wins than he received. Only a few times did the Sox offense pick him up and give him a lucky win.

The Phillies game is the only one I can think of where he absolutely did not deserve to get the win but the offense got him out of that jam. Most other games he was good with a little run support or did pitch poorly and got a deserved loss. Not many of his wins were earned by the offense for him.

batmanZoSo
10-01-2004, 10:47 AM
The Phillies game is the only one I can think of where he absolutely did not deserve to get the win but the offense got him out of that jam. Most other games he was good with a little run support or did pitch poorly and got a deserved loss. Not many of his wins were earned by the offense for him.

That's one. And there's one other in the back of my mind, but I can't remember who we played or what the score was. He didn't get Parque of 2000 type run support, he just got that extra run or two when he needed it more often than he did say last year (when he got absolutely nothing offensively or defensively). I don't understand some peoples' expectations.

39thandWallace
10-01-2004, 08:48 PM
AL pitchers with higher VORPs than Buehrle:

Santana
Schilling
Bradke
Westbrook
Kelvim Escobar
Pedro

So no, it's not that far-fetched that he's a fringe candidate for Cy Young
yea, it is he couldn't hold there jock!

MRKARNO
10-01-2004, 09:07 PM
yea, it is he couldn't hold there jock! This is a stupid and assinine comment without any support for your argument
Fact: Pedro Martinez, playing in a park which is less biased against him than the Cell is to Buehrle has a HIGHER ERA than Buehrle (3.90 for Pedro vs 3.89 for Mark)

Fact: Buehrle's Road ERA is better than ALL of those pitchers except Santana, who is going to win Cy Young. (2.63 for Mark vs 2.58 for Santana)

Fact: Buehrle pitched more innings than any of those pitchers (245.1), the most in the AL and second in the majors only to super-freak Livan Hernandez

Tragg
10-02-2004, 12:14 AM
MB is our best pitcher and is an excellent pitcher. I just hope the Sox management understands that and is willing to pay him a good bit more than they pay garcia when the time comes, as he deserves.

kitekrazy
10-02-2004, 10:40 AM
MB is our best pitcher and is an excellent pitcher. I just hope the Sox management understands that and is willing to pay him a good bit more than they pay garcia when the time comes, as he deserves.

He's nothing more than above average the past 2 seasons. Which playoff team would he be the #1 or #2 starter?

I believe he will only get worse if the Sox continue with Don Cooper.

OEO Magglio
10-02-2004, 10:51 AM
Which playoff team would he be the #1 or #2 starter?


The angels, the yankees, the dodgers, the giants, the cardinals, the braves, you can even argue the redsox with the way pedro has been pitching, so basically almost all of them.

MRKARNO
10-02-2004, 03:40 PM
He's nothing more than above average the past 2 seasons. Which playoff team would he be the #1 or #2 starter?
.
This year for Mark was probably the most underrated by any pitcher in baseball this year. He gave us 245 very good innings and his ERA suffered immensely from the new ballpark conditions. Assuming his road ERA was an indication of how well he'd pitch having 17 starts in a more pitcher friendly ballpark, he'd be a 1 or 2 for every freakin team that's in the playoffs right now probably. Except maybe Houston because Clemens and Oswalt are pretty damn good.

kitekrazy
10-02-2004, 09:57 PM
The angels, the yankees, the dodgers, the giants, the cardinals, the braves, you can even argue the redsox with the way pedro has been pitching, so basically almost all of them.
I highly doubt it. He follows suit like most of the team when it comes to big games. Where was he against the Twins?

MisterB
10-03-2004, 04:27 AM
I highly doubt it. He follows suit like most of the team when it comes to big games. Where was he against the Twins?Buehrle vs. Twins:
5/16 - 6.2 ip, 0 er. won 11-0
5/21 - 7 ip, 2 er. won 8-2
6/29 - 8 ip, 2 er. won 6-2
7/26 - 6.1 ip, 4 er. lost 6-2
9/15 - 7 ip, 2 er. lost 6-1
9/20 - 8 ip, 7 er. lost 8-2

Looks like 1 horrible game (well after we were out of the race), 1 so-so, and 4 good ones. What's your point again?