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View Full Version : Carlos is totally underrated


bartmanisgod
09-29-2004, 02:53 AM
It would be dumb to move Carlos! He is probably the most underrated left fielder in the game. His biggest knocks in his career have been his hustle and his defense. Well he has shown that he can hustle and play great defense...in fact you could argue a case for him to be a gold glover this year. Carlos has carried this team on his back the last two seasons, and when he uses the whole field he is deadly. He has the longest hit streak of the year in the MLB and his power numbers are significant as well! Most importantly he has an option on his contract.

I don't want the sox to move Paulie either, but if they HAD to move one of them I would rather it be PK. Only because he does not have another year on his contract, and because his value is much higher and we would get much more in return than we would for CLee.

Personally I would rather see us spend some freaking money this year and go for it all, and if it dosent pan out let PK walk after next season! Good teams don't dig a hole to use that dirt to fill another hole. Good teams buy dirt so they can fill all the holes!

batmanZoSo
09-29-2004, 03:13 AM
It would be dumb to move Carlos! He is probably the most underrated left fielder in the game. His biggest knocks in his career have been his hustle and his defense. Well he has shown that he can hustle and play great defense...in fact you could argue a case for him to be a gold glover this year. Carlos has carried this team on his back the last two seasons, and when he uses the whole field he is deadly. He has the longest hit streak of the year in the MLB and his power numbers are significant as well! Most importantly he has an option on his contract.

I don't want the sox to move Paulie either, but if they HAD to move one of them I would rather it be PK. Only because he does not have another year on his contract, and because his value is much higher and we would get much more in return than we would for CLee.

Personally I would rather see us spend some freaking money this year and go for it all, and if it dosent pan out let PK walk after next season! Good teams don't dig a hole to use that dirt to fill another hole. Good teams buy dirt so they can fill all the holes!

If Carlos Lee wins the gold glove ever, they should stop giving out the award. I would keep him over Konerko, however. He's more consistent (not saying all that much) and I really think he's got a lot more potential. I could see him putting up Manny Ramirez numbers at least once. He'll never touch him in on-base or ops but I could see .330 42 130 happening one of these year..probably just once, but still impressive. He's not far from it now, he's basically a hot start away from doing it last year or this year. I just don't trust Konerko from year to year and he's a lot more in line with what's wrong with the team--overpaid, too slow, no range in the field, streaky as hell. He's 4 steps slower than Lee who's not Vince Coleman by any stretch and I think Lee is the stronger fielder as well. You have to give him credit for his work out there. He definitely tries. Gold glove, hell no.

SSN721
09-29-2004, 08:03 AM
I have to agree. He might not be quite gold glove calibur but in my eyes he has definitely gotten to the point where he is an above average left fielder, he has made a hell of a lot of good plays out there this year. I also agree with the manny parallel. I think he can hit those numbers at least once in his career. As far as who to trade, it is almost a no brainer to me, if I had the choice, unless the offer was mind boggling, I keep Lee and trade Pauly.

jackbrohamer
09-29-2004, 10:54 AM
I must've missed something, because there are so many threads on this board referring to the possibility of trading C. Lee. Then again, there were about a million threads about us getting Nomar and Beltran ... But are there reported rumors the team is considering trading him?

munchman33
09-29-2004, 11:06 AM
I must've missed something, because there are so many threads on this board referring to the possibility of trading C. Lee. Then again, there were about a million threads about us getting Nomar and Beltran ... But are there reported rumors the team is considering trading him?
It's intelligent speculation. Kenny and Ozzie both have expressed a need to revamp the team. However, most of our money for next year has been spent (Acquisitions of Garcia and Contreras cost nothing this year, but do cost us big next year). If they're truly serious about getting another starter or a smarter/tools player, they'll have to make a trade. Paulie and CLee are the most likely to go, as the both make big money, are coming off productive seasons (ruling out a trade of Everett), and neither has a no-trade clause (which prevents a trade of Frank). Not to mention neither has any range at their position whatsoever, so they definately don'tfit into the whole "Ozzieball" thing.

-Munchie

MisterB
09-29-2004, 12:42 PM
I still don't get why people still bring up any kind of C Lee/Manny comparisons. I don't care that Caballo might put up one season comparable to Manny Ramirez, I'm more interested in what he can do year in and year out. So far Lee is at least one step behind Manny in everything except defense and basestealing.

balke
09-29-2004, 03:23 PM
Clee has been the all-around best player this season. He is the best player on the team IMO. I hope he stays, reports say we are trading him. We are dumb. He just hit a grand slam, 1 RBI from 100 4 doubles from 40 3 games left

could be 30 HR-40 2B 100 RBI 100 RUNS +.300 BA

shagar69
09-29-2004, 03:27 PM
Clee has been the all-around best player this season. He is the best player on the team IMO. I hope he stays, reports say we are trading him. We are dumb. He just hit a grand slam, 1 RBI from 100 4 doubles from 40 3 games left

could be 30 HR-40 2B 100 RBI 100 RUNS +.300 BA it is stupid to trade c. lee. trade PK! would anybody be surprised at all if next yr. his stats were something like 27 hrs, 75 rbis, .255 avg? i could definitly see sometihng like that happening

idseer
09-29-2004, 04:02 PM
it is stupid to trade c. lee. trade PK! would anybody be surprised at all if next yr. his stats were something like 27 hrs, 75 rbis, .255 avg? i could definitly see sometihng like that happening
well i WOULD be surprised. considering the past 5 years he's averaged 28 hrs, 98 rbi's, and over .280 ... and that INCLUDES his hiccup season last year. throw that out and he averaged 30+/100+/.290. throw in that he'll be 29, just about dead center of his prime.
the fact is i will be surprised if he DOESN'T do 40 hr's 115 rbi's and a .290+ average.
one way out of character season and so many want to pitch him like he's nothing. the man has 5 excellent seasons and one subpar season with this team (and even then he managed 18 hr's and 65 rbi's).

i don't want to see either of these guys go (paul or carlos). we AREN'T winning anything next year anyway. let's mature some kids and keep our 2 mvps and maybe something good will happen in '06.

maurice
09-29-2004, 04:24 PM
i will be surprised if he DOESN'T do 40 hr's 115 rbi's and a .290+ average.
I won't be surprised if he does that (if he stays with the Sox) but something around .280, 30, 100 is more likely, IMHO. There's an excellent chance that this is his career year. Before this season, he exceeded 30 HR and 100 RBI exactly once (not in the same year).

OTOH, if he gets traded to a team that plays in a more reasonable home ballpark, 27 HR becomes exponentially more likely than 40 HR.

SoxFan76
09-29-2004, 05:10 PM
Gotta love Sox fans. A guy has a bad year, he's the worst player in MLB history. Guy has a great year, he's too streaky and can be traded for good talent. God forbid we sit back and appreciate the kind of year Konerko is having. Instead we talk about how much we all want him gone. Poor Konerko, he puts up monster numbers and everybody wants him to pack his bags.

idseer
09-29-2004, 05:41 PM
I won't be surprised if he does that (if he stays with the Sox) but something around .280, 30, 100 is more likely, IMHO. There's an excellent chance that this is his career year. Before this season, he exceeded 30 HR and 100 RBI exactly once (not in the same year).

OTOH, if he gets traded to a team that plays in a more reasonable home ballpark, 27 HR becomes exponentially more likely than 40 HR.
not sure i agree with that. would that mean that magglio elsewhere is just a 20-25 homerun guy? or that frank is just a 25-30 hr guy?

how about carl hitting 10 with the sox in '93 and 18 with texas in the same number of games?

paul's home and road splits (91-93) shows he hit 41 at home and 36 at home. that's a pretty even break. i know the disparity is a little more this year but as i see it, over time it's pretty even.

maybe it IS his career year .... but he's been pretty consistant in his improvment. from '98 thru 2004 (with the exception of last year) he's improved his rbi production EVERY single season. it isn't like he's having an abnormal year for him. i see no reason to CHOOSE to believe he won't have another very good year in '05. if i had to lay money on it i'd say this isn't just a career year for paul.

maurice
09-29-2004, 07:17 PM
IMHO, a healthy Maggs elsewhere would be about a 20-30 HR guy.

Frank probably is about the same at this point in his career. Though he's huge, he's mostly a line-drive hitter (as opposed to a McGuire-esque towering-fly-ball hitter). Frank's home-road power splits have been awful lately, though you also have to figure in the batting cages at the Cell.

Carl's '03 numbers are a result of his unsusually hot April (9 HR / 1.163 OPS). After that, he only averaged about 4 HR a month. His second best month was at the Cell in August (6 HR / 1.042 OPS).

Park effects from the early '90s are irrelevant. Since then, the Sox moved in the fences and installed a new roof.

from '98 thru 2004 (with the exception of last year) he's improved his rbi production EVERY single season.
But his AVE and HR totals fluxuated significantly. His 2B totals are way down this year . . . further evidence that long fly balls to the gap are travelling a bit further since the new roof was installed.

it isn't like he's having an abnormal year for him.
While the 40 HR certainly is in line with his talent and our expectations, it's not in line with his previous performance. He set his previous HR high back in 2001 with 32. (He's hit more than shagar69's 27 HR estimate only twice.) After two years with fewer than 32 HR, he shattered his previous mark by at least 25% this year. Also, his OPS currently is 40-some-odd points higher than ever before (breaking 900 for the first time).

Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if he did it again, if he's at the Cell in 2005. OTOH, there's at least a decent chance that Konerko 2004 = Ordonez 2002, especially if he gets traded to, say, the Dodgers.

balke
09-29-2004, 08:21 PM
Gotta love Sox fans. A guy has a bad year, he's the worst player in MLB history. Guy has a great year, he's too streaky and can be traded for good talent. God forbid we sit back and appreciate the kind of year Konerko is having. Instead we talk about how much we all want him gone. Poor Konerko, he puts up monster numbers and everybody wants him to pack his bags.
That's also BS though. Carlos doesn't get enough respect from the fans. He had the longest hit streak in White Sox history this season, had a great power Second half to boost his HR's to 31. IF anything, people don't respect Carlos enough.

I think everyone recognizes PK is good. But people also realize PK is slow, and can only play 1st base. I like PK. I don't deny he'll be good, but Carlos is only getting better and better in his career. I'll be much more sad to see him go.

You don't know what you got til it's gone, fans will miss him greatly if he goes. He's much more than a HR hitter.

batmanZoSo
09-29-2004, 08:38 PM
I still don't get why people still bring up any kind of C Lee/Manny comparisons. I don't care that Caballo might put up one season comparable to Manny Ramirez, I'm more interested in what he can do year in and year out. So far Lee is at least one step behind Manny in everything except defense and basestealing.

I also highlighted that he puts up consistent numbers better than Konerko. Last two years now he's .300 30 100. And all I'm saying is that he's likely to do that every year and possibly have one or two monster years. With Konerko I think we've seen his best average/all around year and his best power year. And neither were that spectacular. Konerko's power numbers are great but his obp and slugging are less than Lee's and on par with Rowand's. Don't just react when you see Ramirez's name. No one said Lee is Manny Ramirez. I specifically said he'd never be Manny Ramirez, which would entail a phenominal OPS and being able to carry a team on your shoulders year after year.

Nick@Nite
09-29-2004, 08:52 PM
Keep Caballo and PK... dump Crede, Willie & Manos. Sign Pavano, Beltran & Renteria. Resign Maggs. Teach Rowand how to play 3rd. Put Cora back at 2nd. For a closer, go after Urbina. Trade JR to the DC team so he can alienate a baseball hungry town there, instead of the southside. Loan Nick 20 bucks...

PaulDrake
09-29-2004, 09:02 PM
well i WOULD be surprised. considering the past 5 years he's averaged 28 hrs, 98 rbi's, and over .280 ... and that INCLUDES his hiccup season last year. throw that out and he averaged 30+/100+/.290. throw in that he'll be 29, just about dead center of his prime.
the fact is i will be surprised if he DOESN'T do 40 hr's 115 rbi's and a .290+ average.
one way out of character season and so many want to pitch him like he's nothing. the man has 5 excellent seasons and one subpar season with this team (and even then he managed 18 hr's and 65 rbi's).

i don't want to see either of these guys go (paul or carlos). we AREN'T winning anything next year anyway. let's mature some kids and keep our 2 mvps and maybe something good will happen in '06. I totally agree.

bartmanisgod
09-30-2004, 02:25 PM
Keep Caballo and PK... dump Crede, Willie & Manos. Sign Pavano, Beltran & Renteria. Resign Maggs. Teach Rowand how to play 3rd. Put Cora back at 2nd. For a closer, go after Urbina. Trade JR to the DC team so he can alienate a baseball hungry town there, instead of the southside. Loan Nick 20 bucks...

Hey let me get a hit of that next... puff puff give man! :bandance::bandance::bandance::bandance:

Lay off the crack pipe dude!