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SEALgep
09-26-2004, 09:06 PM
What about a trade involving PK, and a move of Carlos Lee to first. I believe Carlos could make a pretty solid first baseman, and would allow us to have a first baseman with speed and power. Personally, I think Gload will be a pretty good first baseman for us as well, but I wouldn't have any complaints about trying C Lee there. Based on the White Sox website, it appears PK is staying and C Lee is on his way out. We'll see. C Lee is probably easier to deal, and with our outfield potential in the near future, it probably makes the most sense. Unless of course, C Lee can make the move to first.

MRKARNO
09-26-2004, 09:08 PM
Carlos has more value as he is speedier and the team can have him for two years with his 06 option where Pauly would be a one year rental unless the team trading for him extended him (or we did before trading him).

shagar69
09-26-2004, 09:16 PM
i know that this is kinda crazy, but i wonder if c. lee can go back to playing 3b? then we can have an insurance policy if crede doesnt pan out

MRKARNO
09-26-2004, 09:26 PM
i know that this is kinda crazy, but i wonder if c. lee can go back to playing 3b? then we can have an insurance policy if crede doesnt pan outNot if you want good defense.

Tragg
09-26-2004, 09:39 PM
What about a trade involving PK, and a move of Carlos Lee to first. I believe Carlos could make a pretty solid first baseman, and would allow us to have a first baseman with speed and power. I agree

Personally, I think Gload will be a pretty good first baseman for us as well there the agreement ends

SEALgep
09-26-2004, 09:43 PM
I agree

there the agreement endsLol, that's fine. The Gload comment was with other moves in mind, but that probably doesn't make a difference in your thinking I assume. I'd be more than satisfied with Gload as a backup for next year and C Lee at first. We can agree again I hope? :bandance:

Tragg
09-26-2004, 09:58 PM
Lol, that's fine. The Gload comment was with other moves in mind, but that probably doesn't make a difference in your thinking I assume. I'd be more than satisfied with Gload as a backup for next year and C Lee at first. We can agree again I hope? :bandance:
Admittedly, I've never seen him play, but I don't think he can hit 30 and with Crede at 3rd, we can't have mediocre O at both corner infield positions

AddisonStSox
09-26-2004, 10:04 PM
I just started feeling comfortable with CLee in LF. I mean, if you think about it...his play could merit a gold glove. I just dont think this team needs anymore defensive question marks. However, you are right...CLee would probably get us a lot more in a trade, how much more I am not sure of. A 40HR 1B looks awfully good on the trade block too.

SEALgep
09-26-2004, 10:11 PM
I just started feeling comfortable with CLee in LF. I mean, if you think about it...his play could merit a gold glove. I just dont think this team needs anymore defensive question marks. However, you are right...CLee would probably get us a lot more in a trade, how much more I am not sure of. A 40HR 1B looks awfully good on the trade block too.40 homers is pretty impressive, but GM's still recognize the majority came from the Cell. Not that PK didn't earn this mark, it's just that his value takes this into consideration.

HITMEN OF 77
09-27-2004, 12:28 AM
Lee is probably the odd man out and will be traded at the end of the year according to whitesox.com also "Paul Konerko will be coming off of a 40-home run, 110-RBI season and is not likely to be moved" I hate to see either of them go, but if I had to choose one, Lee gone.

StillMissOzzie
09-27-2004, 12:45 AM
Based on the White Sox website, it appears PK is staying and C Lee is on his way out. We'll see.
While I saw this story on whitesox.com like the rest of you, please keep in mind that this was written by a sportswriter for MLB, not the White Sox, and that his is his opinion only. He is not speaking in any official capacity for the White Sox brass.

SMO

mrwag
09-27-2004, 08:20 AM
I'd move PK before Lee. We need fewer basepath cloggers, and PK's value is high enough to bring in some arms that we really need.

jabrch
09-27-2004, 09:52 AM
Carlos has evolved into a fairly decent LF. He is not the butcher that he was in his first few years. I wouldn't move him to 1B. If we are looking for a 1B, we can find one who is a more experienced 1B. (Meintkoeiiejriwicz comes to mind - he's a GGer there) who can play. He'd be fairly inexpensive, he's a lefty, he doesn't K much. He's had a few very good offensive seasons and a few not great ones - but he'd be someone to consider inexpensively if we are looking to use the money elsewhere.

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2004, 10:16 AM
To me, it sounds like everybody is going about this from the wrong direction. You don't go into the off-season with a list of guys you want to trade. You go in with a list of what you need to get better. The teams with which you want to trade aren't going to take a guy just because that's who YOU want to trade. They're going to have their own needs. I think you have to be flexible with who you're willing to give up. To me, there are only 4 "untouchables"

Buehrle
Garcia
Contreras
Rowand

Everyone else is available, given the right player(s) in return.

Here's an idea: CLee to Oakland for Tim Hudson. The A's are probably going to dump Dye, so they're going to be in the market for an OF, and Hudson is in his walk year.

wdelaney72
09-27-2004, 10:28 AM
After a rough beginning C. Lee has become an ABOVE average Left Fielder with very productive numbers.

Under NO circumstances do I want him at 1B. Carl Everett, that's a different story.

This organization loves C. Lee. He's not going anywhere. If anyone gets moved, it will be Paulie. Frank Thomas and Crazy Carl will carry on the White Sox tradition of clogging the base paths next year.

wdelaney72
09-27-2004, 10:30 AM
After a rough beginning C. Lee has become an ABOVE average Left Fielder with very productive numbers.

Under NO circumstances do I want him at 1B. Carl Everett, that's a different story.

This organization loves C. Lee. He's not going anywhere. If anyone gets moved, it will be Paulie. Frank Thomas and Crazy Carl will carry on the White Sox tradition of clogging the base paths next year.

mdep524
09-27-2004, 11:02 AM
To me, it sounds like everybody is going about this from the wrong direction. You don't go into the off-season with a list of guys you want to trade. You go in with a list of what you need to get better. The teams with which you want to trade aren't going to take a guy just because that's who YOU want to trade. They're going to have their own needs. I think you have to be flexible with who you're willing to give up. To me, there are only 4 "untouchables"

Buehrle
Garcia
Contreras
Rowand

Everyone else is available, given the right player(s) in return.

Here's an idea: CLee to Oakland for Tim Hudson. The A's are probably going to dump Dye, so they're going to be in the market for an OF, and Hudson is in his walk year.
I totally agree with your theory- the Sox need to complie a list of players they want to obtain, not players they want to trade away. If KW goes into the offseason with only the mindset of "Must...trade...Konerko/Lee..." he is definitely not going to get fair value for them.

That said, I definitely want to see Konerko traded this offseason and not Lee. Unless a trade for Lee is just too good to pass up--your Hudson- or Mulder- for Lee trade would certainly meet that criteria (but NOT Zito), Paulie better be the one to go.

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2004, 11:05 AM
I totally agree with your theory- the Sox need to complie a list of players they want to obtain, not players they want to trade away. If KW goes into the offseason with only the mindset of "Must...trade...Konerko/Lee..." he is definitely not going to get fair value for them.

That said, I definitely want to see Konerko traded this offseason and not Lee. Unless a trade for Lee is just too good to pass up--your Hudson- or Mulder- for Lee trade would certainly meet that criteria (but NOT Zito), Paulie better be the one to go.But Oakland is happy with Hatteburg at 1B, while they will have a opening for an outfielder. This is the point I was trying to make. You also have to consider the needs of the team with which you're trying to swing a trade.

mdep524
09-27-2004, 11:07 AM
But Oakland is happy with Hatteburg at 1B, while they will have a opening for an outfielder. This is the point I was trying to make. You also have to consider the needs of the team with which you're trying to swing a trade.
I know, that's why I said the Lee-for-Hudson trade would be the exception. In any other circumstance, I would rather see Konerko go.

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2004, 12:59 PM
I know, that's why I said the Lee-for-Hudson trade would be the exception. In any other circumstance, I would rather see Konerko go.Whether you would like to see Lee or Konerko traded may depend on the projected backups. Would you rather see Lee/Gload or Everett/Konerko (and remember, death is not an option)?

Personally, I'm not a big Carlos Lee fan. He seems prone to lazy habits. Yesterday was a good example. In the 8th he hit a grounder to Relaford, who made a high throw to first. Had Lee been running hard, he probably could have gotten in safely, but he wasn't (as usual) and Stairs put the tag on him easily. He's done that more than a few times. How many times have we seen Lee thrown out at 2nd when he thought a ball was going out and loafed down to first? At least two that I can recall. And though he hasn't been charged with an error, he's misplayed a few balls in LF in critical situations, allowing runners to take extra bases that they shouldn't have been able to take. Plus, with the number of OF prospects the Sox have in the minors, they've a better chance of replacing him in 2006 and later. Given a choice, mine would be to trade Lee rather than Konerko.

Tekijawa
09-27-2004, 01:02 PM
While I saw this story on whitesox.com like the rest of you, please keep in mind that this was written by a sportswriter for MLB, not the White Sox, and that his is his opinion only. He is not speaking in any official capacity for the White Sox brass.

SMO
I thought Jerry Reinsdorf was Major League Baseball?

misty60481
09-27-2004, 01:22 PM
I agree with Ol'No.2 that C. Lee is sometimes lazy he is getting more into the habit of admiring any long fly ball that comes of his bat..I think his trade value is high and I would rather keep PK -- 40 Hrs & 100+ RBIs are not easy to replace.....

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2004, 01:29 PM
I agree with Ol'No.2 that C. Lee is sometimes lazy he is getting more into the habit of admiring any long fly ball that comes of his bat..I think his trade value is high and I would rather keep PK -- 40 Hrs & 100+ RBIs are not easy to replace..... The guy everyone is forgetting is Alex Escobar. If he can stay healthy, he could be a great addition to the Sox outfield.

shagar69
09-27-2004, 01:38 PM
I totally agree with your theory- the Sox need to complie a list of players they want to obtain, not players they want to trade away. If KW goes into the offseason with only the mindset of "Must...trade...Konerko/Lee..." he is definitely not going to get fair value for them.

That said, I definitely want to see Konerko traded this offseason and not Lee. Unless a trade for Lee is just too good to pass up--your Hudson- or Mulder- for Lee trade would certainly meet that criteria (but NOT Zito), Paulie better be the one to go.
are u serious? a c. lee for zito trade would be AWESOME for us! it is MUCH easier to find a good LF than a good, young lefty! zito has had a couple off yrs, but i have not doubt that he is a very good SP. plus he only makes something like 4.5 mil next yr. can you imagine having burly AND zito for yrs?!! god damn, we would have two of the best, young LHP in MLB!

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2004, 02:03 PM
are u serious? a c. lee for zito trade would be AWESOME for us! it is MUCH easier to find a good LF than a good, young lefty! zito has had a couple off yrs, but i have not doubt that he is a very good SP. plus he only makes something like 4.5 mil next yr. can you imagine having burly AND zito for yrs?!! god damn, we would have two of the best, young LHP in MLB!Based on this year, Hudson would be the first choice, but I wouldn't be unhappy with any of the A's big three in a trade for Lee. Plus, Hudson is a local kid, so they might have a better chance of re-signing him. However, Beane's M.O. has always been to try to get young (cheap) players in return. I'll bet he would do the deal for Aaron Rowand, but it would be pretty tough to agree to that.

Beane has never been one to put a high price on defense, so maybe the Sox could package Dino ($4M is relatively cheap) with one or two young players.

shagar69
09-27-2004, 02:08 PM
Based on this year, Hudson would be the first choice, but I wouldn't be unhappy with any of the A's big three in a trade for Lee. Plus, Hudson is a local kid, so they might have a better chance of re-signing him. However, Beane's M.O. has always been to try to get young (cheap) players in return. I'll bet he would do the deal for Aaron Rowand, but it would be pretty tough to agree to that.

Beane has never been one to put a high price on defense, so maybe the Sox could package Dino ($4M is relatively cheap) with one or two young players.
IMO, there is no way that beane would do a lee for hudson trade straight up. they are both about the same age, cost about the same, except one is a good OF and one is a good SP and beane values SP way to much to do that trade.

mdep524
09-27-2004, 02:09 PM
Whether you would like to see Lee or Konerko traded may depend on the projected backups. Would you rather see Lee/Gload or Everett/Konerko (and remember, death is not an option)?

Personally, I'm not a big Carlos Lee fan. He seems prone to lazy habits. Yesterday was a good example. In the 8th he hit a grounder to Relaford, who made a high throw to first. Had Lee been running hard, he probably could have gotten in safely, but he wasn't (as usual) and Stairs put the tag on him easily. He's done that more than a few times. How many times have we seen Lee thrown out at 2nd when he thought a ball was going out and loafed down to first? At least two that I can recall. And though he hasn't been charged with an error, he's misplayed a few balls in LF in critical situations, allowing runners to take extra bases that they shouldn't have been able to take. Plus, with the number of OF prospects the Sox have in the minors, they've a better chance of replacing him in 2006 and later. Given a choice, mine would be to trade Lee rather than Konerko.
I agree with you in many ways. Carlos is a lazy player sometimes- admiring homeruns, etc. Plus he is one of the worst baserunners in the American League (He ALWAYS gets thrown out at second base when he singles in a run and the outfielder's throw to the plate is cut off). Plus, outfielders are much easier to replace than infielders. Between Escobar, Borchard, Everett, Anderson, a FA, there are a lot of options there.

But, at the same time, I'm not a huge Paulie fan either. He's not exactly a poster boy for hustle, and his numbers are greatly, GREATLY, inflated by The Cell. I wish we would trade him now at the peak of his accomplishment when we could really cash in. In the end, I guess the whole merit of trading PK or Lee really depends on who we get in return. If we get serious talent for either one, you have to consider the trade a success. And of course I'mthe guy who used to yearn for BOTH Paulie and Lee to be traded last off season and earlier this season. (But that was assuming we'd keep Maggs.)

mdep524
09-27-2004, 02:13 PM
Based on this year, Hudson would be the first choice, but I wouldn't be unhappy with any of the A's big three in a trade for Lee. Plus, Hudson is a local kid, so they might have a better chance of re-signing him. However, Beane's M.O. has always been to try to get young (cheap) players in return. I'll bet he would do the deal for Aaron Rowand, but it would be pretty tough to agree to that.

Beane has never been one to put a high price on defense, so maybe the Sox could package Dino ($4M is relatively cheap) with one or two young players.
Actually, I've recently read that Beane has begun to think very highly of solid defense (Mark Kotsay, for example). And I think Mark Mulder is the Chicago kid, not Hudson.

Mohoney
09-27-2004, 02:30 PM
The guy everyone is forgetting is Alex Escobar. If he can stay healthy, he could be a great addition to the Sox outfield.
If this is what we're praying for, then go ahead and pencil us in for 2nd place right now. 3rd place if we join the AL East.

Paulie and Carlos BOTH need to be kept. I know that everybody is sick of the power approach, but we need a 3, 4, 5 of Frank, Carlos, and Paulie if we're even going to DREAM of competing. Looking past the power numbers, Konerko and Lee both hit over .300 with RISP. They aren't "all sizzle and no steak". These guys produce.

We're ALREADY losing a big bat with Maggs' departure. If you want OBP/speed/small ball, look at the black hole at 3B. Look at the black hole at SS.

Instead of trading guys that are actually doing their jobs, why don't we get rid of some of the clowns that aren't? Crede, gone. Valentin, gone. Everett, gone.

If I had my way, I would field this lineup:

1. Aaron Rowand CF
2. Omar Vizquel (I just added OBP and the ability to bunt) SS
3. Magglio Ordonez RF
4. Frank Thomas DH
5. Carlos Lee LF
6. Paul Konerko 1B
7. Ben Davis/Jamie Burke C
8. Juan Uribe (a vast offensive improvement) 3B
9. Willie Harris (I added speed to the bottom of the order) 2B

Now that the offense is set, let's turn to the REAL area of concern, the pitching.

We have 2 upper-tier pitchers in Buehrle and Garcia, a good #4 in Contreras, and a complete headcase in Garland. If we sign another upper-tier guy like, say, Russ Ortiz, I guess I can live with Garland as a #5. I would rather see Garland off the team, but I know it's not going to happen. I just need to hope that he can pitch over 200 innings, post a .500 record, keep his ERA respectable, and keep his mouth shut.

As for the bullpen, it's a complete mess. If the Jon Adkins-Neal Cotts combo is not replaced in the late innings, we're in deep trouble. We have 3 setup guys in Politte, Shingo, and Marte that I can feel good about, but not if they're as overworked as they were this year. Add a closer like Urbina, and a situational lefty to offset some of Marte's huge workload, and now we have 5 spots locked in. Now we can let Bajenaru, Cotts, and Adkins compete for the last relief role, or we can carry 12 pitchers and keep Cotts as a long relief man.

As for the bench, keep Timo, Gload, and Valdez. I can't fault any one of these guys for their performances this year. In fact, I think that Timo was insanely clutch, and Gload was a very good LH pinch hitter. Let one more IF job be decided in Spring Training. Maybe a Kelly Dransfeldt type will step up and win a utility job.

So I guess my 25 man roster would be:

C-Ben Davis, Jamie Burke (with Burke playing some 3B, maybe 10 games)
IF-Paul Konerko, Willie Harris, Omar Vizquel, Juan Uribe, Wilson Valdez, Ross Gload, another utility guy
OF-Aaron Rowand, Carlos Lee, Magglio Ordonez, Timo Perez
SP-Freddy Garcia, Mark Buehrle, Russ Ortiz, Jose Contreras, Jon Garland (unless we can somehow do better)
RP-Neal Cotts (only as a long relief man), Jeff Bajenaru, a situational lefty, Cliff Politte, Shingo Takatsu, Damaso Marte, Ugueth Urbina

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2004, 02:38 PM
If this is what we're praying for, then go ahead and pencil us in for 2nd place right now. 3rd place if we join the AL East.

Paulie and Carlos BOTH need to be kept. I know that everybody is sick of the power approach, but we need a 3, 4, 5 of Frank, Carlos, and Paulie if we're even going to DREAM of competing. Looking past the power numbers, Konerko and Lee both hit over .300 with RISP. They aren't "all sizzle and no steak". These guys produce.

We're ALREADY losing a big bat with Maggs' departure. If you want OBP/speed/small ball, look at the black hole at 3B. Look at the black hole at SS.

Instead of trading guys that are actually doing their jobs, why don't we get rid of some of the clowns that aren't? Crede, gone. Valentin, gone. Everett, gone.

If I had my way, I would field this lineup:

1. Aaron Rowand CF
2. Omar Vizquel (I just added OBP and the ability to bunt) SS
3. Magglio Ordonez RF
4. Frank Thomas DH
5. Carlos Lee LF
6. Paul Konerko 1B
7. Ben Davis/Jamie Burke C
8. Juan Uribe (a vast offensive improvement) 3B
9. Willie Harris (I added speed to the bottom of the order) 2B

Now that the offense is set, let's turn to the REAL area of concern, the pitching.

We have 2 upper-tier pitchers in Buehrle and Garcia, a good #4 in Contreras, and a complete headcase in Garland. If we sign another upper-tier guy like, say, Russ Ortiz, I guess I can live with Garland as a #5. I would rather see Garland off the team, but I know it's not going to happen. I just need to hope that he can pitch over 200 innings, post a .500 record, keep his ERA respectable, and keep his mouth shut.

As for the bullpen, it's a complete mess. If the Jon Adkins-Neal Cotts combo is not replaced in the late innings, we're in deep trouble. We have 3 setup guys in Politte, Shingo, and Marte that I can feel good about, but not if they're as overworked as they were this year. Add a closer like Urbina, and a situational lefty to offset some of Marte's huge workload, and now we have 5 spots locked in. Now we can let Bajenaru, Cotts, and Adkins compete for the last relief role, or we can carry 12 pitchers and keep Cotts as a long relief man.

As for the bench, keep Timo, Gload, and Valdez. I can't fault any one of these guys for their performances this year. In fact, I think that Timo was insanely clutch, and Gload was a very good LH pinch hitter. Let one more IF job be decided in Spring Training. Maybe a Kelly Dransfeldt type will step up and win a utility job.

So I guess my 25 man roster would be:

C-Ben Davis, Jamie Burke (with Burke playing some 3B, maybe 10 games)
IF-Paul Konerko, Willie Harris, Omar Vizquel, Juan Uribe, Wilson Valdez, Ross Gload, another utility guy
OF-Aaron Rowand, Carlos Lee, Magglio Ordonez, Timo Perez
SP-Freddy Garcia, Mark Buehrle, Russ Ortiz, Jose Contreras, Jon Garland (unless we can somehow do better)
RP-Neal Cotts (only as a long relief man), Jeff Bajenaru, a situational lefty, Cliff Politte, Shingo Takatsu, Damaso Marte, Ugueth UrbinaIf I had my way, we would have All-Stars at every position and a pitching staff made up of all Cy Young winners.

Now for the reality.

You're probably talking about a $30M increase in payroll. Not gonna happen. Don't bother shrieking about Reinsdorf - it won't do any good. It is what it is.

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2004, 02:46 PM
I agree with you in many ways. Carlos is a lazy player sometimes- admiring homeruns, etc. Plus he is one of the worst baserunners in the American League (He ALWAYS gets thrown out at second base when he singles in a run and the outfielder's throw to the plate is cut off). Plus, outfielders are much easier to replace than infielders. Between Escobar, Borchard, Everett, Anderson, a FA, there are a lot of options there.

But, at the same time, I'm not a huge Paulie fan either. He's not exactly a poster boy for hustle, and his numbers are greatly, GREATLY, inflated by The Cell. I wish we would trade him now at the peak of his accomplishment when we could really cash in. In the end, I guess the whole merit of trading PK or Lee really depends on who we get in return. If we get serious talent for either one, you have to consider the trade a success. And of course I'mthe guy who used to yearn for BOTH Paulie and Lee to be traded last off season and earlier this season. (But that was assuming we'd keep Maggs.)Paulie runs as hard as anyone on the team - he just doesn't go as fast. :D: I agree that his numbers are inflated by playing at Comiskey, but if we know it, so do other teams. Ergo, his value to the Sox is higher than to another team, so it makes more sense to keep him.

And you're right, it's Mulder who is from Thornwood H.S., not Hudson. Brain cramp.

MarkEdward
09-27-2004, 03:04 PM
Actually, I've recently read that Beane has begun to think very highly of solid defense (Mark Kotsay, for example). And I think Mark Mulder is the Chicago kid, not Hudson.
You're right, Mulder's from South Holland.

Anyway, it does seem like Beane is starting to favor defense a bit more. To be fair, though, Beane's A's have always been good defensively. Either way, I doubt he'd do Lee for one of the Big Three. With Dye leaving after this season, the A's will probably put Nick Swisher in right and Eric Byrnes in left. They also have Bobby Kielty, and while he has had a bad year (.213/.319/.366) still has a career line of .250/.357/.414.

Mark Redman will most likely be available this off-season, but I wouldn't advocate the Sox going after him (too expensive for a fourth starter).

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2004, 03:26 PM
You're right, Mulder's from South Holland.

Anyway, it does seem like Beane is starting to favor defense a bit more. To be fair, though, Beane's A's have always been good defensively. Either way, I doubt he'd do Lee for one of the Big Three. With Dye leaving after this season, the A's will probably put Nick Swisher in right and Eric Byrnes in left. They also have Bobby Kielty, and while he has had a bad year (.213/.319/.366) still has a career line of .250/.357/.414.

Mark Redman will most likely be available this off-season, but I wouldn't advocate the Sox going after him (too expensive for a fourth starter).I can give you 4 reasons why Oakland might be willing to sacrifice pitching for offense: 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003. Four consecutive trips to the post-season, zero series wins. All four went 5 games, and they scored 23, 12, 26 and 18 runs. With a little more offense, they might have won a few of those. If they make it 5 in a row and exit in the first round this year because of anemic offense, it could prompt Beane to deal one of the Big Three for a bat.

maurice
09-27-2004, 03:36 PM
IMHO, the best we reasonably can hope for in 2005 is:

C - Davis, Burke
1B - Gload
IF - Uribe
IF - Crede or Harris
IF - new acquisition
OF - Rowand
OF - Lee
OF - Everett
DH - Thomas

SP - Garcia
SP - Buehrle
SP - new acquisition
SP - Contreras
SP - Garland

RP - new acquisition
RP - Takatsu
RP - Marte

Dependng on the identity of the "new acquisitions," and the health of Everett and Thomas, the team could be competitive in a bad division. However, a really good team would cost more money that JR has been willing to spend.

:angry:

hold2dibber
09-27-2004, 05:46 PM
If this is what we're praying for, then go ahead and pencil us in for 2nd place right now. 3rd place if we join the AL East.

Paulie and Carlos BOTH need to be kept. I know that everybody is sick of the power approach, but we need a 3, 4, 5 of Frank, Carlos, and Paulie if we're even going to DREAM of competing. Looking past the power numbers, Konerko and Lee both hit over .300 with RISP. They aren't "all sizzle and no steak". These guys produce.
We "need" a 3, 4 5 of those three to ever "dream" of competing? That's absurd - Everett should produce numbers not too far off of what Lee produces. The Sox have considerably more power from CF (Rowand) and SS (Uribe) than most other teams. The Sox surely can compete with a 3-4-5 of Frank, Everett and one of Paulie/Carlos, if they improve in other areas.


If I had my way, I would field this lineup:

1. Aaron Rowand CF
2. Omar Vizquel (I just added OBP and the ability to bunt) SS
3. Magglio Ordonez RF
4. Frank Thomas DH
5. Carlos Lee LF
6. Paul Konerko 1B
7. Ben Davis/Jamie Burke C
8. Juan Uribe (a vast offensive improvement) 3B
9. Willie Harris (I added speed to the bottom of the order) 2B.
Okay, but you just added about $3 or $4 million to the payroll for Vizquel and, conservatively, $10 million for Maggs (?? - hard to say since his status is so up in the air).

We have 2 upper-tier pitchers in Buehrle and Garcia, a good #4 in Contreras, and a complete headcase in Garland. If we sign another upper-tier guy like, say, Russ Ortiz, I guess I can live with Garland as a #5. I would rather see Garland off the team, but I know it's not going to happen. I just need to hope that he can pitch over 200 innings, post a .500 record, keep his ERA respectable, and keep his mouth shut.
How is Contreras a good no. 4 but Garland is a headcase? I think you've got the two of them mixed up. Garland is an adequate no. 4 (200 IP, .500 record, respectable ERA). Contreras is Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde. In any event, sign Ortiz and you've now added another $8 million to the payroll. We're up about $20 million so far.


As for the bullpen, it's a complete mess. If the Jon Adkins-Neal Cotts combo is not replaced in the late innings, we're in deep trouble. We have 3 setup guys in Politte, Shingo, and Marte that I can feel good about, but not if they're as overworked as they were this year. Add a closer like Urbina, and a situational lefty to offset some of Marte's huge workload, and now we have 5 spots locked in. Now we can let Bajenaru, Cotts, and Adkins compete for the last relief role, or we can carry 12 pitchers and keep Cotts as a long relief man..
You've just added about $6 million more in payroll. So we're looking at a payroll increase of over $25 million to do your plan. In other words - it ain't gonna happen. That is exactly why (1) Maggs will be let go; and (2) the Sox need to add OBP/speed by moving Lee or Konerko for lower priced players who provide those attributes. They money saved can then be invested in pitching - because without more pitching, the Sox don't have a prayer.

My point is, no one wants to see Lee or PK go; but realistically, trading one of them is the best option KW has to re-tool the offense and save money to add pitching, without breaking the bank.

balke
09-27-2004, 08:11 PM
I haven't heard one peep about PK being on the block in anyway. I think the guy wants to stay because of his house he's building, and because this is where he's been for so long now. His 40 Hr's leaving most likely sit well with the majority of fans.

SO.... With PK here, I see 4 players that are log-jammed. IMO Frank, Everett, PK, Gload are only playable at 1st, or at DH. NOw, granted, Everett and Gload Play the field, but it is painful to watch. VERY painful.

I also see CLee gone, and no LF to take his place. Which makes me think Everett and Gload are going to platoon there. This is the worst possible situation for the White Sox. We better hope we get Randy Johnson and Rivera for Clee if we wanna win with these guys playing the field.

I don't know if it's already linked but, there's an article on MLB.com about Clee probably being gone. http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040926&content_id=871769&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

I'd rather pay an outfielder 8 mil, than a 1st baseman. But at the same time, He who plays first is less likely to injure himself.

shagar69
09-27-2004, 08:23 PM
IMHO, the best we reasonably can hope for in 2005 is:

C - Davis, Burke
1B - Gload
IF - Uribe
IF - Crede or Harris
IF - new acquisition
OF - Rowand
OF - Lee
OF - Everett
DH - Thomas

SP - Garcia
SP - Buehrle
SP - new acquisition
SP - Contreras
SP - Garland

RP - new acquisition
RP - Takatsu
RP - Marte

Dependng on the identity of the "new acquisitions," and the health of Everett and Thomas, the team could be competitive in a bad division. However, a really good team would cost more money that JR has been willing to spend.

:angry:
that team is not that good at all, unless the two acquistions are beltran and pavano or radke, or sheets, or at least milton

Mohoney
09-27-2004, 08:33 PM
We "need" a 3, 4 5 of those three to ever "dream" of competing? That's absurd - Everett should produce numbers not too far off of what Lee produces.
I couldn't disagree more. Carl Everett is not a .300, 30 HR, 100 RBI guy. We're lucky to get .270, 25, and 85 from him. I see something more like .265, 22, 80 from him. Either way, it's more of a downgrade than you think, and he's an absolute butcher in the outfield. He's also slower on the basepaths.

Bottom line, if we move to the AL East, and DON'T spend in the $85 million-$100 million range, we're guaranteed 3rd place. Even if we stay in the Central, we're guaranteed 2nd place.

We either have to get SIGNIFICANTLY better, or we need to get somewhat better and pray for the Twins to get somewhat worse. Sorry to break this to everybody, but the Twins aren't going anywhere. Therefore, we need to get significantly better, and it won't happen without a hefty payroll spike. If we're not prepared to do this, then by all means trade C Lee. Trade Paulie, too. Let Maggs walk. Go completely young and look toward 2008, 2009, and 2010.

Either way, this "spend just enough money to have a so-so shot to win the division with less than 90 wins if Minnesota falters" approach is NEVER going to work.

The fans are starting to show up again. Prove to us that you're serious about winning this thing (spend money) and we will back this team. I think we have proven that this year with several big crowds in June and July, before the wheels fell off.

Mohoney
09-27-2004, 08:36 PM
Does anybody know the exact amount of money already committed to next year's payroll?

MarkEdward
09-27-2004, 11:50 PM
I can give you 4 reasons why Oakland might be willing to sacrifice pitching for offense: 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003. Four consecutive trips to the post-season, zero series wins. All four went 5 games, and they scored 23, 12, 26 and 18 runs. With a little more offense, they might have won a few of those. If they make it 5 in a row and exit in the first round this year because of anemic offense, it could prompt Beane to deal one of the Big Three for a bat.
I don't really think the A's need another bat (Kotsay, Chavez, Durazo, and Crosby make up a strong offensive core), but that point's arguable. Eric Byrnes is a decent LFer; he's hit about as well as Lee has this year, and he's making about seven million dollars less. The A's are very high on Nick Swisher, and I'd be very surprised if he's not their starting RFer in 2005.

Aside from this, I don't think Beane would be impressed with Lee's lack of plate patience.

MisterB
09-28-2004, 02:25 AM
Does anybody know the exact amount of money already committed to next year's payroll?With rough arbitration figures it looks like $43M for:

Konerko, Lee, Garcia, Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Marte, Uribe, Crede, Harris, Rowand, Cotts, Adkins, Borchard

Options:
Thomas $8M
Everett $4M
Politte $1.3M
Takatsu $1.5M

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2004, 09:29 AM
I don't really think the A's need another bat (Kotsay, Chavez, Durazo, and Crosby make up a strong offensive core), but that point's arguable. Eric Byrnes is a decent LFer; he's hit about as well as Lee has this year, and he's making about seven million dollars less. The A's are very high on Nick Swisher, and I'd be very surprised if he's not their starting RFer in 2005.

Aside from this, I don't think Beane would be impressed with Lee's lack of plate patience.This "strong offensive core" is currently 9th in the AL in offense. If they get their heads handed to them in the first round because they can't score, there will be lots of pressure on Beane to improve the offense. He could well decide to sacrifice a pitcher in his walk year for a consistent offensive player. Swisher hasn't hit that well, although he's young and they're very high on his long-term potential. There are a lot of ifs here, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I will agree, though, that Lee is not a classic Moneyball player.

hold2dibber
09-28-2004, 12:27 PM
I couldn't disagree more. Carl Everett is not a .300, 30 HR, 100 RBI guy. We're lucky to get .270, 25, and 85 from him. I see something more like .265, 22, 80 from him. Either way, it's more of a downgrade than you think, and he's an absolute butcher in the outfield. He's also slower on the basepaths.
I agree entirely with your assessment. And the range you suggest is not too far off of what Carlos produces. If you plug Everett in and he produces in the range you've suggested and then you trade Lee for a top flight starter or a live bullpen arm and a high-OBP guy, that more than makes up for the 6 lost homers and 15 lost RBIs between CLee and Everett. My point is, it's crazy to think that the Sox cannot contend if they trade Lee or Konerko - there are certainly trades they could make that would make the team better overall. I certainly don't advocate "dumping" either of those guys, but even if one of those guys leaves, the Sox have plenty of power, so if you can move them to plug other holes and improve the team, I say you do it.

chisoxmike
09-28-2004, 02:40 PM
Well, Evertte is not going to be the answer to trading Paulie or Lee. He did nothing this year, and he'll never put up power hitter numbers again. I also saw somebody put Omar Vizquel in a possible lineup. Vizquel is old and I think he will retire after '05.

My best looking lineup for 05:

1. Harris 2B
2. Rowand CF
3. Lee LF
4. Konerko 1B
5. Thomas DH
6. Uribe SS
7. Perez RF
8. Burke C
9. Crede 3B

I'd like to see Crede traded and a pitcher or two come in return but then we would have a problem at 3rd base. Hell, package Crede and Borchard for a 3B.

Pitching
1. Buehrle :D:
2. Garcia :smile:
3. Contreras :o:
4. Garland :o:
5. ????? via trade/FA
or will management go with Diaz :o: , or Grilli:o:

A bullpen could look like:

Adkins, Marte, Shingo, Cotts, Politte, Bajenaru. Or as I call it, A 7th, 8th and 9th inning disaster.

chisoxmike
09-28-2004, 02:40 PM
Well, Evertte is not going to be the answer to trading Paulie or Lee. He did nothing this year, and he'll never put up power hitter numbers again. I also saw somebody put Omar Vizquel in a possible lineup. Vizquel is old and I think he will retire after '05.

My best looking lineup for 05:

1. Harris 2B
2. Rowand CF
3. Lee LF
4. Konerko 1B
5. Thomas DH
6. Uribe SS
7. Perez RF
8. Burke C
9. Crede 3B

I'd like to see Crede traded and a pitcher or two come in return but then we would have a problem at 3rd base. Hell, package Crede and Borchard for a 3B.

Pitching
1. Buehrle :D:
2. Garcia :smile:
3. Contreras :o:
4. Garland :o:
5. ????? via trade/FA
or will management go with Diaz :o: , or Grilli:o:

A bullpen could look like:

Adkins, Marte, Shingo, Cotts, Politte, Bajenaru. Or as I call it, A 7th, 8th and 9th inning disaster.

balke
09-28-2004, 02:43 PM
1. Buehrle :D:
2. Garcia :smile:
3. Contreras :o:
4. Garland :o:
5. ????? via trade/FA
or will management go with Diaz :o: , or Grilli:o:

A bullpen could look like:

Adkins, Marte, Shingo, Cotts, Politte, Bajenaru. Or as I call it, A 7th, 8th and 9th inning disaster.
Yes, I think they will stick with Grilli. MLB.com has been singing praises about him, and he hasn't messed up too bad YET. But yeah, I think to save money we are going to stick with him. Hopefully that means a different move that helps us. Semi-important game tonight for us, in that if Contreras does well, we can look back at his season without puking too hard.

I think that Bullpen listed gets an upgrade. I wouldn't be surprised to see Garland/Clee go in a trade for Bullpen/SS or any combo of positions neeeded filling.

MarkEdward
09-28-2004, 03:46 PM
This "strong offensive core" is currently 9th in the AL in offense. If they get their heads handed to them in the first round because they can't score, there will be lots of pressure on Beane to improve the offense. He could well decide to sacrifice a pitcher in his walk year for a consistent offensive player. Swisher hasn't hit that well, although he's young and they're very high on his long-term potential. There are a lot of ifs here, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I will agree, though, that Lee is not a classic Moneyball player.Using park-adjusted numbers (like EqA), the A's are fifth in offense in the AL. Aside from second base (Scutaro) and right field (Dye), they have above average hitters at each position.

As for Swisher, he's only had about 50 major league at-bats, but he has a .286 EqA, and he's had some great plate appearances (from the games I've seen). In AAA this year he hit .269/.406/.537.

Though I can see either Mulder, Zito, or Redman getting traded (Beane wants Hudson back), I don't think Beane will be looking for a guy like Lee.

benjamin
09-28-2004, 04:10 PM
Beane has never been one to put a high price on defense, so maybe the Sox could package Dino ($4M is relatively cheap) with one or two young players.
Despite popular belief of those who read moneyball, Beane's current system for analyzing players relies EXTREMELY heavily on what a player can do defensively.

Hence their signing Chris Singleton a few years back and having Kotsay out there in CF this year.

benjamin
09-28-2004, 04:20 PM
NOw, granted, Everett and Gload Play the field, but it is painful to watch. VERY painful.

In talking about Gload's defense...

Maybe in the outfield it was a bit ugly at times, but this is entirely because he has been a very good defensive firstbaseman his entire career and the OF was a new thing for him.

Depending on how much his recent hot streak at the bat has to do with facing September competition and how much is his true abilities finally getting a chance to show themselves, he can be a Mientkiewizsdlkjfs-like first baseman (great defense, average offense).

balke
09-28-2004, 04:21 PM
In talking about Gload's defense...

Maybe in the outfield it was a bit ugly at times, but this is entirely because he has been a very good defensive firstbaseman his entire career and the OF was a new thing for him.

Depending on how much his recent hot streak at the bat has to do with facing September competition and how much is his true abilities finally getting a chance to show themselves, he can be a Mientkiewizsdlkjfs-like first baseman (great defense, average offense).
I like Gload at 1st, I hate Gload in the field.

shagar69
09-28-2004, 04:24 PM
Despite popular belief of those who read moneyball, Beane's current system for analyzing players relies EXTREMELY heavily on what a player can do defensively.

Hence their signing Chris Singleton a few years back and having Kotsay out there in CF this year. kotsay is in CF due to his high OBP more than his defense

marlins03
09-28-2004, 04:25 PM
hehe i'd like to see Carlos Lee in a marlins uniform next year :D:

shagar69
09-28-2004, 04:27 PM
hehe i'd like to see Carlos Lee in a marlins uniform next year :D:
sure, just give us beckett, burnett, or willis and mota!

benjamin
09-28-2004, 04:29 PM
kotsay is in CF due to his high OBP more than his defense
Since the start of 2000, Kotsay ranks 11th amongst all outfielders in range factor.

Believe me, Beane values defense. He wanted Cameron badly this past off-season, but the price was not right.

While not a coincidence that Kotsay sports a nice OBP, his defense was more than equally important to the whole equation.

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2004, 04:30 PM
Despite popular belief of those who read moneyball, Beane's current system for analyzing players relies EXTREMELY heavily on what a player can do defensively.

Hence their signing Chris Singleton a few years back and having Kotsay out there in CF this year.It's real easy to like Kotsay's defense when he's hitting .316 with a .372 OBP.

marlins03
09-28-2004, 04:32 PM
sure, just give us beckett, burnett, or willis and mota! LMAO

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2004, 04:49 PM
Using park-adjusted numbers (like EqA), the A's are fifth in offense in the AL. Aside from second base (Scutaro) and right field (Dye), they have above average hitters at each position.

As for Swisher, he's only had about 50 major league at-bats, but he has a .286 EqA, and he's had some great plate appearances (from the games I've seen). In AAA this year he hit .269/.406/.537.

Though I can see either Mulder, Zito, or Redman getting traded (Beane wants Hudson back), I don't think Beane will be looking for a guy like Lee.Like I said before, I think a lot will depend on how the A's do in the playoffs. If their bats go to sleep and they get chased in the first round again, all the park adjustments in the world won't mean a thing. If Beane stays in character, he'll stick with Swisher. But he could be pressured to add an established hitter to replace Dye. Beane is going to do what he's going to do. I guess what I'm really saying here is that it's the kind of possibility that Kenny would have to explore. Who knows? Maybe Beane will have his eye on someone else on the Sox roster. I'm sure he'd LOVE to have Aaron Rowand. Would anyone here trade Rowand for Hudson or Zito?

benjamin
09-28-2004, 04:54 PM
It's real easy to like Kotsay's defense when he's hitting .316 with a .372 OBP.
It's also easy to like his OBP when he's one of the top defensive players at his position and you build your team around starting pitching.

Round and round we go.

MRKARNO
09-28-2004, 04:54 PM
Would anyone here trade Rowand for Hudson or Zito?
Billy Beane wouldnt do it and neither would Kenny WIlliams. Rowand costs 300,000ish and Hudson and Zito cost a lot more and have similar VORPs. The A's pitcher who would do best in a White Sox uniform likely would be Mulder because of his ability to get the double play

shagar69
09-28-2004, 04:56 PM
Billy Beane wouldnt do it and neither would Kenny WIlliams. Rowand costs 300,000ish and Hudson and Zito cost a lot more and have similar VORPs. The A's pitcher who would do best in a White Sox uniform likely would be Mulder because of his ability to get the double play no, but lee for zito sounds good!

MRKARNO
09-28-2004, 05:06 PM
no, but lee for zito sounds good! Not when you consider the fact that he's an flyball pitcher (Anywhere from a .89 to a .74 G/F ratio) something we dont want at our park whose allowed 27 homers this year in a park that doesnt yield nearly as many homers as US Cellular Field. This is a recipe for disaster. I would be much more in favor of just signing Derek Lowe as a free agent (read: 3.34 career G/F ratio. Ignore the ERA as it's irrelevant because of the inferior Red Sox defense).

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2004, 05:07 PM
Billy Beane wouldnt do it and neither would Kenny WIlliams. Rowand costs 300,000ish and Hudson and Zito cost a lot more and have similar VORPs. The A's pitcher who would do best in a White Sox uniform likely would be Mulder because of his ability to get the double playRowand's low price is exactly why Beane would want him. Plus, he can't bunt, and Beane WON'T CARE. But Rowand's low price probably makes it impossible for Kenny to part with him.

MRKARNO
09-28-2004, 05:08 PM
Rowand's low price is exactly why Beane would want him. Plus, he can't bunt, and Beane WON'T CARE. But Rowand's low price probably makes it impossible for Kenny to part with him.
This is not to you, but to everyone:

Rowand is not going anywhere so stop speculating.

shagar69
09-28-2004, 05:11 PM
Not when you consider the fact that he's an flyball pitcher (Anywhere from a .89 to a .74 G/F ratio) something we dont want at our park whose allowed 27 homers this year in a park that doesnt yield nearly as many homers as US Cellular Field. This is a recipe for disaster. I would be much more in favor of just signing Derek Lowe as a free agent (read: 3.34 career G/F ratio. Ignore the ERA as it's irrelevant because of the inferior Red Sox defense).
good point, didnt look into that. but still if we wanted to trade caballo, that is the kind of player i would want, a young, relatively cheap, 4.5 mil IIRC, starting pitcher

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2004, 05:14 PM
Rowand is not going anywhere.... I agree, but the question was, if YOU were the GM and Beane offered you either Hudson or Mulder for Rowand, would you do it?

shagar69
09-28-2004, 05:16 PM
I agree, but the question was, if YOU were the GM and Beane offered you either Hudson or Mulder for Rowand, would you do it? mulder for rowand would be an ABSOLUTE STEAL! i dont care how good rowand will ever be. mark mulder a top 5 SP in baseball! id even do it for hudson

SEALgep
09-28-2004, 05:17 PM
I agree, but the question was, if YOU were the GM and Beane offered you either Hudson or Mulder for Rowand, would you do it?I love Rowand, but you would have to for one of those two studs.

shagar69
09-28-2004, 05:20 PM
I love Rowand, but you would have to for one of those two studs. yeah exactly, those two SP are awesome. i might even do it for zito. and lets face it: rowand has had one good yr. and he has to prove to us that he can be consistently good

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2004, 05:26 PM
I love Rowand, but you would have to for one of those two studs.Wait. You guys are answering this as fans. What if you're in Kenny Williams' shoes? You have to consider the payroll ramifications. How are you going to fit them into the limited payroll you have? Can you re-sign Mulder/Hudson after 2005 and if not, can you justify giving up Rowand for one year of a stud pitcher?

And just to make it more interesting, suppose Beane says he wants a second player. Who would you offer that Beane is likely to accept? (Be realistic.)

hold2dibber
09-28-2004, 06:36 PM
I would be much more in favor of just signing Derek Lowe as a free agent (read: 3.34 career G/F ratio. Ignore the ERA as it's irrelevant because of the inferior Red Sox defense).
Egads! Derek Lowe? You can't just ignore his ERA because of the Red Sox inferior infield defense in the 1st half of the year. He's given up 213 hits (!) in only 179 IP (!). His WHIP is 1.58! His monthly ERAs since the Red Sox drastically improved their infield defense by acquiring Minecitzivchz and Cabrera? 5.66, 4.19 and 5.40. Since being converted to a starter, he's had one great year, one okay year and one atrocious year -- in that order. I see a trend. I wouldn't mind him as a back of the rotation guy, but he's probably going to be asking for a lot of money and he is simply not worth the risk.

shagar69
09-28-2004, 06:38 PM
Wait. You guys are answering this as fans. What if you're in Kenny Williams' shoes? You have to consider the payroll ramifications. How are you going to fit them into the limited payroll you have? Can you re-sign Mulder/Hudson after 2005 and if not, can you justify giving up Rowand for one year of a stud pitcher?

And just to make it more interesting, suppose Beane says he wants a second player. Who would you offer that Beane is likely to accept? (Be realistic.)
get PK out of here. trade him for a cheap, high OBP OF

shagar69
09-28-2004, 06:40 PM
Wait. You guys are answering this as fans. What if you're in Kenny Williams' shoes? You have to consider the payroll ramifications. How are you going to fit them into the limited payroll you have? Can you re-sign Mulder/Hudson after 2005 and if not, can you justify giving up Rowand for one year of a stud pitcher?

And just to make it more interesting, suppose Beane says he wants a second player. Who would you offer that Beane is likely to accept? (Be realistic.) give cotts back to him! probably a meaux or phillips or kohlmier, a marginal prospect

MRKARNO
09-28-2004, 08:57 PM
Egads! Derek Lowe? You can't just ignore his ERA because of the Red Sox inferior infield defense in the 1st half of the year. He's given up 213 hits (!) in only 179 IP (!). His WHIP is 1.58! His monthly ERAs since the Red Sox drastically improved their infield defense by acquiring Minecitzivchz and Cabrera? 5.66, 4.19 and 5.40. Since being converted to a starter, he's had one great year, one okay year and one atrocious year -- in that order. I see a trend. I wouldn't mind him as a back of the rotation guy, but he's probably going to be asking for a lot of money and he is simply not worth the risk.
He's not going to get a lot of money and if he asks for more than say 4-5 million, then he's probably not worth it. The fact is that we do need groundball and strikeout pitchers and flyball pitchers are not a good fit for our ballpark no matter how good they've done in other parks. I would be pleased if we signed Lowe for 5 million per for 2 years and he posted a 4 ERA over those two years, such is the state of pitching in our ballpark and of our pitching staff.

MRKARNO
09-28-2004, 09:00 PM
Wait. You guys are answering this as fans. What if you're in Kenny Williams' shoes? You have to consider the payroll ramifications. How are you going to fit them into the limited payroll you have? Can you re-sign Mulder/Hudson after 2005 and if not, can you justify giving up Rowand for one year of a stud pitcher?

And just to make it more interesting, suppose Beane says he wants a second player. Who would you offer that Beane is likely to accept? (Be realistic.)
Bingo. In addition, Aaron Rowand this year had a higher VORP than any of those pithers and is a lot cheaper. Also, those pitchers would likely see a rise in even their higher than average ERAs having to pitch half their games at US Cellular Field.

SEALgep
09-28-2004, 11:29 PM
Wait. You guys are answering this as fans. What if you're in Kenny Williams' shoes? You have to consider the payroll ramifications. How are you going to fit them into the limited payroll you have? Can you re-sign Mulder/Hudson after 2005 and if not, can you justify giving up Rowand for one year of a stud pitcher?

And just to make it more interesting, suppose Beane says he wants a second player. Who would you offer that Beane is likely to accept? (Be realistic.)It was a hypothetical question that anyone in their right mind would do. KW has some leeway in the payroll if it means getting a star player. JR may be stingy, but has spent in some cases, such as Belle. No matter how it turned out, JR spent the money when he felt he was getting a superstar type player. It's worthwhile to acquire a Hudson or Mulder, because they are superstar type pitchers, which is exactly the direction we hope to go in.

SEALgep
09-28-2004, 11:31 PM
Bingo. In addition, Aaron Rowand this year had a higher VORP than any of those pithers and is a lot cheaper. Also, those pitchers would likely see a rise in even their higher than average ERAs having to pitch half their games at US Cellular Field.Both teams play in the same stadium. In individual games, ERA doesn't matter as much as being the better pitcher that day. Hudson and Mulder have proven they are the better pitcher more often than not, no matter where they pitched.

Mohoney
09-29-2004, 07:49 AM
And just to make it more interesting, suppose Beane says he wants a second player. Who would you offer that Beane is likely to accept? (Be realistic.)
Jon Garland, perhaps?

I also wonder if maybe the A's have soured on Octavio Dotel...