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View Full Version : White Sox moving to AL East???? ( Gammons thinks so )


Fenway
09-26-2004, 12:58 PM
Peter Gammons on WEEI Sunday morning was reacting to a story in the NY Daily News that the Orioles owner demand to allow Montreal to move to Washington he (Angelos) wants to move the Orioles to the NL East. Gammons stated that JR has told the executive council he would like to see the White Sox move into the east as it would create more interest in the Chicago market. He also said Toronto would want to move to the Centreal. Not clear yet what NL team would move to the AL. Stay tuned.

The NY story

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/col/story/235692p-202412c.html

Angelos' Montreal Mess


Although MLB's executive council emerged from a three-hour meeting Thursday with no announcement on what's to become of the Expos next year, all signs point to the team being awarded to Washington, D.C., on a conditional basis. Commissioner Bud Selig has promised a decision by the end of the season - which means this week. If nothing else, by declaring that the Expos will be playing in Washington next year, Selig will set in motion the considerable effort that has to be made to get RFK Stadium ready for baseball. In the meantime, D.C. legislators have until the end of the year to get their stadium funding plan approved while Selig deals with the lawsuit from the limited Expos partners seeking damages from former Montreal owner Jeffrey Loria. In the months to come, there will also be an auction to determine the club's new owner, but until then it will be incumbent upon Selig to make sure the interim Expos front office is sufficiently staffed to undertake the team's business operations - ticket sales, marketing and TV and radio rights negotiations.


As for dissident Orioles owner Peter Angelos, sources have speculated that part of MLB's appeasement settlement with him would be to move Baltimore to the NL East or give Angelos the option of owning the Washington team. If the latter pans out, MLB would auction off the Orioles.

SoxxoS
09-26-2004, 01:01 PM
I would be sick to my stomach if we moved to the division with Boston and the Yankees...either sell the team uncle jerry or keep your f-ing mouth closed!!!:angry:


If you thought this year was bad...There is REALLY going to be no interest down 20 games in June.

santo=dorf
09-26-2004, 01:07 PM
**** THAT!!

If any team has to go to the AL EAST, it should be the Tigers.

LongLiveFisk
09-26-2004, 01:12 PM
**** THAT!!

If any team has to go to the AL EAST, it should be the Tigers.

100% ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

If we go to the AL East we are screwed. We have enough trouble competing in a ''weak" division as it is. :angry:

Huisj
09-26-2004, 01:24 PM
How the heck can Toronto be central and Chicago be east? That makes no sense. Oh yeah, and last I checked, Detroit and Cleveland were both farther east than Chicago. When there were two divisions, the sox were in the west.

And how does one stinking owner have the right to demand a whole bunch of realignment? If Baltamore wants the NL east, put Montrael in the AL east. Problem solved. Or better yet, how about Bud tell the O's to shut up.

shagar69
09-26-2004, 01:32 PM
this is ****in ridculuous! can you just imagine playing the bosox and yanks 19 times a year apiece!!! we would turn into the D rays!

Baby Fisk
09-26-2004, 01:36 PM
GAMMONS = MORON.

(but open your minds and imagine if the Sox were spurred to become a REAL team with a REAL OWNER who spent REAL MONEY to compete with the monied interests in Boston & NY. An annual 3-way brawl for the division among the AL's THREE MOST STORIED FRANCHISES...)

Fenway
09-26-2004, 01:38 PM
and how many years was Atlanta in the NL West????? We talking MLB here not logic...

Look from a bottom line having at least 18 home gates with NYY and Boston pumps up the bottom line. ( and at least 36 games on TV means higher ratings in the #3 market )

My thinking is if the Orioles flip to the NL then move the Marlins to the AL East. Then Tampa and Miami can be done on one swing.

It pretty obvious why Toronto and Baltimore wants out of the AL East. They will never compete with Boston and NY's TV money.

50 years ago owners did listen to Bill Veeck about revenue sharing. Only problem was it was the National Football League. ( Green Bay is an equal to NY )



How the heck can Toronto be central and Chicago be east? That makes no sense. Oh yeah, and last I checked, Detroit and Cleveland were both farther east than Chicago. When there were two divisions, the sox were in the west.

And how does one stinking owner have the right to demand a whole bunch of realignment? If Baltamore wants the NL east, put Montrael in the AL east. Problem solved. Or better yet, how about Bud tell the O's to shut up.

Baby Fisk
09-26-2004, 01:48 PM
It pretty obvious why Toronto and Baltimore wants out of the AL East. They will never compete with Boston and NY's TV money.
I don't buy the argument that "you can't compete with Bo$ton and the Yankee$". The Blue Jays won 2 championships by opening up the wallet and levelling the salary playing field. It can be done, and the White Sox can do it too.

The more I think of it, the more I like this (ludicrous) notion of moving to the AL East:

-- it forces current ownership to put up and spend money to compete and win at the Boston-New York level
-- it forces current ownership to sell to someone who WILL take on the Red Sox & Yanks

MRKARNO
09-26-2004, 02:01 PM
All this will do is turn us into the Baltimore Orioles, without the highly-acclaimed ballpark.

SEALgep
09-26-2004, 02:16 PM
Not that I don't believe it, but where does JR say he wants to move to the AL East?

nitetrain8601
09-26-2004, 02:16 PM
But we always do good against great teams like the Red Sox and Yankees. Maybe that would be better for the Sox because we can't beat the teams we should.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2004, 02:30 PM
This move would accomplish three things:

1. Perpetually doom the Sox to no playoff chances and a 3rd place finish at best.

2. Unite all Sox fans since even the most optimistic optimist would realize the Sox would be doomed forever.

3. But hey Uncle Jerry would make even more money... all those extra home games with the Yanks and Red Sox sure beat having more games with the Royals and Tigers eh? LOL (and in the end that's all he gives a damn about!)

Lip

balke
09-26-2004, 02:32 PM
It's funny we're so pessimistic about this, when the AL East are the only teams we know how to beat. I think this move not only increases revenue for sox, but forces ownership to spend. AND being in the East, makes the likelihood of players like MAGGS leaving to play in the East due to the exposure of media, less likely. I'd welcome a change of losing to money teams, to losing to minor league acquisition teams.

SoxxoS
09-26-2004, 03:09 PM
It's funny we're so pessimistic about this, when the AL East are the only teams we know how to beat. I think this move not only increases revenue for sox, but forces ownership to spend. AND being in the East, makes the likelihood of players like MAGGS leaving to play in the East due to the exposure of media, less likely. I'd welcome a change of losing to money teams, to losing to minor league acquisition teams.
If in if "forces ownership" to spend (which isn't true) Uncle Jerry will still be too far behind to compete with the Yanks and BoSox.

balke
09-26-2004, 03:14 PM
If in if "forces ownership" to spend (which isn't true) Uncle Jerry will still be too far behind to compete with the Yanks and BoSox.
Force is a bad word, But I think revenue would go up, and more spending would be done. I wouldn't be surprised if one of these teams stops spending sometime soon. 180,000,000 and a near defeat in the pennant chase just doesn't add up to success. I hope in someways both are eliminated, but then again, I don't like the A's or Minne to win either... so whatever.

Point is money is why they are there, but it's going to end up hurting them at some point in time.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2004, 03:16 PM
For what it's worth I passed this info along to Ken Rosenthal of The Sporting News. He used to cover the Orioles and is an acquaintance of mine.

Ken took the time to send me back a message which I post here:

"Lip, I'm not sure I buy any of this. The other item in the NY Daily News - about Angelos owning the Washington team - was utterly ridiculous; Angelos is a Baltimore guy, through and through. I highly doubt the Orioles would leave the East and lose their rivalries with the Yankees and Red Sox. They would be deservedly ripped for copping out like that."

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
09-26-2004, 03:29 PM
Peter Gammons, put down the crack pipe.

:kukoo:

ondafarm
09-26-2004, 03:35 PM
Guess I'm the only person here who thinks this might be a good idea.


Good teams generally play to the level of the competition. The White Sox could load up with power hitters and count on slugging it out with the Yanks and Bosox if they were in this division. They'd also get as many games against Toronto and Tampa Bay if they made this division switch.

Kogs35
09-26-2004, 03:44 PM
if the sox move to the al east all these tenative schedules that have been realeased will have to be redone including the national league teams we play in interleague. i dont think the sox will be moving. but in the eyes of uncle jerry there r pros and cons to this. the cons we will never goto the playoffs. the pros in uncle jerrys eyes more gate revenue and more tv revenue with the yanks and bo sox coming to town with espn and faux picking up more games. :angry:

RKMeibalane
09-26-2004, 03:59 PM
Guess I'm the only person here who thinks this might be a good idea.


Good teams generally play to the level of the competition. The White Sox could load up with power hitters and count on slugging it out with the Yanks and Bosox if they were in this division. They'd also get as many games against Toronto and Tampa Bay if they made this division switch.
I disagree. It is precisely this idea of "loading up with power hitters" that has created some of the Sox offensive problems in the first place. For the past three seasons, all we've heard is how great the Sox lineup is. Well, of the players who have been a part of that lineup, there are only a few who have actually lived up to the hype and produced. These days, it's more important to build a well-rounded team that can hit, pitch, and play defense. The Sox haven't been able to do any of these things since 2000.

soxtalker
09-26-2004, 04:21 PM
Peter Gammons on WEEI Sunday morning was reacting to a story in the NY Daily News that the Orioles owner demand to allow Montreal to move to Washington he (Angelos) wants to move the Orioles to the NL East. Gammons stated that JR has told the executive council he would like to see the White Sox move into the east as it would create more interest in ...

The way this is phrased, it sounds like a plausible initial offer by MLB to Angelos. There was a report on WSI yesterday that JR was spearheading the negotiations. What could MLB possibly have that Angelos might want? An offer to move to the NL east is an intriguing one. Yes, they lose the rivalries with the Yankees and Red Sox, but they pick up new ones with the Mets, Phillies, and Bucs. The problem might be fnding a team willing to move the other direction. Now, the Expos is one possibility, but perhaps JR is simply making an alternative offer. It sure would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in those negotiations.

oeo
09-26-2004, 04:30 PM
Why would we go to the east over the Indians? The Indians are further east than us and they're in the eastern time zone.

AddisonStSox
09-26-2004, 04:35 PM
The way this is phrased, it sounds like a plausible initial offer by MLB to Angelos. There was a report on WSI yesterday that JR was spearheading the negotiations. What could MLB possibly have that Angelos might want? An offer to move to the NL east is an intriguing one. Yes, they lose the rivalries with the Yankees and Red Sox, but they pick up new ones with the Mets, Phillies, and Bucs. The problem might be fnding a team willing to move the other direction. Now, the Expos is one possibility, but perhaps JR is simply making an alternative offer. It sure would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in those negotiations.
Pittsburgh plays in the NL Central.

Kogs35
09-26-2004, 04:46 PM
ok could any1 see the giants moving to the al west if baltimore moves the nl east. then barry could dh and the giants prob wouldnt mind that. just a though

robertks61
09-26-2004, 04:55 PM
Guess I'm the only person here who thinks this might be a good idea.


Good teams generally play to the level of the competition. The White Sox could load up with power hitters and count on slugging it out with the Yanks and Bosox if they were in this division. They'd also get as many games against Toronto and Tampa Bay if they made this division switch.
It will definitly let us know we're out of it early in the season if we don't play competitive.

soxtalker
09-26-2004, 05:03 PM
Why would we go to the east over the Indians? The Indians are further east than us and they're in the eastern time zone.

Geographically, that makes sense. However, perhaps it would be difficult to persuade Cleveland to move. If JR is spearheading the negotiations, he knows that he can offer the Sox, as he owns them. The question I have is why not the Expos (or whatever they'll be called in DC -- Senators?). Maybe Angelos would want to play in the same division as the new DC team.

ewokpelts
09-26-2004, 05:30 PM
Peter Gammons on WEEI Sunday morning was reacting to a story in the NY Daily News that the Orioles owner demand to allow Montreal to move to Washington he (Angelos) wants to move the Orioles to the NL East. Gammons stated that JR has told the executive council he would like to see the White Sox move into the east as it would create more interest in the Chicago market. He also said Toronto would want to move to the Centreal. Not clear yet what NL team would move to the AL. Stay tuned.

The NY story

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/col/story/235692p-202412c.htmlthe BEST PART OS THAT ARTICLE:

MLB hired new schedule-makers from MIT this year, but you have to wonder if they're actually from Saturn. The Yankees open the season at home, April 4, against ... the Red Sox! How much sense does that make? Almost as much as the Red Sox opening at home a week later ... against the Yankees! So round one of the great rivalry will have played out after just two weeks of the season in presumably inclement conditions when both teams would have sold out their openers against anyone. Bud Selig should be happy, however, as the Yankees go to Milwaukee later in the season, while the Cubs will be coming to Yankee Stadium for the first time since 1932.

Gene

bigfoot
09-26-2004, 05:47 PM
Let me get this straight. Comcast is about to take over the majority of telecasting of White Sox games, and....the rumor is floated about of the Sox changing to the East division. That would boost the income paid by Comcast via increased ad revenues. There would be more income, but with the CBA contract to end in 2006 there would be no need to spend more $.

Soxfest
09-26-2004, 05:54 PM
If Sox got to the east with cheap ass JR and a junior manager and GM ....bar the door it is over for decades. :angry:

voodoochile
09-26-2004, 06:04 PM
:reinsy
"We have noticed that fans almost always sell out the park when the Yankees are in town, so we think it will be good for the team to play them more often. The increased money should allow us to spend an additional $5M on payroll next year and in years beyond. Which will surely make the difference in making the playoffs on a regular basis..."

cornball
09-26-2004, 06:04 PM
This move would accomplish three things:

1. Perpetually doom the Sox to no playoff chances and a 3rd place finish at best.

2. Unite all Sox fans since even the most optimistic optimist would realize the Sox would be doomed forever.

3. But hey Uncle Jerry would make even more money... all those extra home games with the Yanks and Red Sox sure beat having more games with the Royals and Tigers eh? LOL (and in the end that's all he gives a damn about!)

Lip
Seems logical thinking to me. Nice post Lip.

Tragg
09-26-2004, 06:37 PM
JR's nuts

Okay the Yankees are a draw- that's it. Cleveland is a better draw than anyone else.

And let's not forget Tampa Bay, Baltimore/the Senators- fine draws those 2 are.

duke of dorwood
09-26-2004, 07:02 PM
At least there would be less games against Minnesota.

Fenway
09-26-2004, 07:02 PM
I think I understand where JR is coming from on this.

Chicago and New York have always been "rivals" beyond baseball.

The Bulls greatest rival in their glory years were the Knicks. The Cubs had a huge rivalry with the Mets before it went to 3 divisions.

The White Sox were sent west in 1969 when the AL split and in hindsight that may have been wrong. It was compounded when the Brewers were sent to the AL East.

I understand JR's logic on this.........Chicago fans react to New York far more than Minneapolis, Cleveland or Detroit.


Personally I would rather see Chicago 19 games a year than the Tampa Bay Devil Dog Fighting Seaweed Rays.

Fenway
09-26-2004, 07:04 PM
JR's nuts

Okay the Yankees are a draw- that's it. Cleveland is a better draw than anyone else.

And let's not forget Tampa Bay, Baltimore/the Senators- fine draws those 2 are.
Check out what Boston drew on their one visit to "The Cell" in 2004

balke
09-26-2004, 07:08 PM
Check out what Boston drew on their one visit to "The Cell" in 2004
Don't make us come up there Fenway!!! heh. We'd already have the nemesis fan on the board, to make the Bosox games more fun.

Hangar18
09-26-2004, 07:20 PM
How the heck can Toronto be central and Chicago be east? That makes no sense. Oh yeah, and last I checked, Detroit and Cleveland were both farther east than Chicago. When there were two divisions, the sox were in the west.

And how does one stinking owner have the right to demand a whole bunch of realignment? If Baltamore wants the NL east, put Montrael in the AL east. Problem solved. Or better yet, how about Bud tell the O's to shut up.
YOU KNOW WHY??? THERES NO FREAIKING ******** COMMISSIONER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Someone please tell me this sport is being flushed down the toilet? The Orioles in the NL? An american league team?
this is what it sounds like. An AL Owner, crying because he lost a Battle with Uncle Jerry and King George, now wanting to take the 2nd best scenario, which is putting his team into a MUCH EASIER LEAGUE, and guarantee himself a better opportunity to get to the playoffs, against Bogus NL TEAMS. THis sport NEEDS a commissioner .................... NOW

Kogs35
09-26-2004, 07:25 PM
YOU KNOW WHY??? THERES NO FREAIKING ******** COMMISSIONER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Someone please tell me this sport is being flushed down the toilet? The Orioles in the NL? An american league team?
\
actally hangar i found this in the ap story on the o's manager about a move to the nl.


The original Baltimore Orioles (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Baltimore%20Orioles%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw)) played in the National League from 1882-99. The present franchise was the Milwaukee Brewers (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Milwaukee%20Brewers%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw)) in 1901, moved to St. Louis the following year and became the Baltimore Orioles in 1954.

dcb33
09-26-2004, 07:38 PM
ok could any1 see the giants moving to the al west if baltimore moves the nl east. then barry could dh and the giants prob wouldnt mind that. just a thoughThat is a terrible idea that would never happen becuase the Giants have always been in the NL, and were in the NL before the AL even existed, not to mention the fact that you would destroy the Giants/Dodgers rivalry, which has also been around longer than the AL...

There is NO way the Sox will move to the AL East because as much as we think it would ruin our team, don't think for a second that ownership in Boston and New York wouldn't oppose this because the Sox would be a significantly more difficult opponent for the Yankees and RED Sox than the O's, and somehow I doubt Pissant Angelos carries more weight and clout with MLB than Steinbrenner and Henry do...

I would love to see us be put in the same division as the Yankees and RED Sox because I think it would rekindle a Sox/Yankees rivalry that used to huge in the 50s and 60s (although that was way before my time) and it might actually force our team to take the necessary steps to become more competitive. I've read lots of posts about how we would lose, but last I checked, that's all we've been able to do in the Central, and even if we did make the playoffs this year we wouldn't be a serious World Series threat...

Kogs35
09-26-2004, 07:42 PM
That is a terrible idea that would never happen becuase the Giants have always been in the NL, and were in the NL before the AL even existed, not to mention the fact that you would destroy the Giants/Dodgers rivalry, which has also been around longer than the AL...

There is NO way the Sox will move to the AL East because as much as we think it would ruin our team, don't think for a second that ownership in Boston and New York wouldn't oppose this because the Sox would be a significantly more difficult opponent for the Yankees and RED Sox than the O's, and somehow I doubt Pissant Angelos carries more weight and clout with MLB than Steinbrenner and Henry do...

I would love to see us be put in the same division as the Yankees and RED Sox because I think it would rekindle a Sox/Yankees rivalry that used to huge in the 50s and 60s (albiet way before my time) and it might actually force our team to take the necessary steps to become more competitive. I've read lots of posts about how we would lose, but last I checked, that's all we've been able to do in the Central, and even if we did make the playoffs this year we wouldn't be a serious World Series threat...
remeber there is no commish of baseball he is a puppet. nothing ever suprises me with bud light

dpbyron
09-26-2004, 08:10 PM
With the Sox in the AL East, we would never have a chance and I would be through with baseball. Bright idea BUDDY...:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

DumpJerry
09-26-2004, 08:19 PM
How about this.....Flubs in the AL Central. Then we get to play them 19 times a year!!!!! The Twins can replace the Flubs in the NL Central. The Flubs will sink here. No bullpen, facing a DH in each game.......it would be a feast!

The ChiSox in the AL East may work for us....despite the mammoth talent on the Yankees, we seem to own them the last couple of years. The BoSox, however, scare me.

Keep the status quo with one exception.....DUMPJERRY!!!!!!:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

HITMEN OF 77
09-26-2004, 08:20 PM
For what it's worth I passed this info along to Ken Rosenthal of The Sporting News. He used to cover the Orioles and is an acquaintance of mine.

Ken took the time to send me back a message which I post here:

"Lip, I'm not sure I buy any of this. The other item in the NY Daily News - about Angelos owning the Washington team - was utterly ridiculous; Angelos is a Baltimore guy, through and through. I highly doubt the Orioles would leave the East and lose their rivalries with the Yankees and Red Sox. They would be deservedly ripped for copping out like that."

Lip
Thanks Lip! I agree with KR, all the Baltimore fans would riot if they moved out of the AL East.

Fenway
09-26-2004, 08:28 PM
OK here is the scoop

The Orioles are in the process of leaving Comcast SportsNet and starting their own TV network ( see NESN and YES )

They hired away the 2 people responsible for NESN

http://orioles.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bal/news/bal_news_story.jsp?article_id=bal_20020123_ostv_co ls&team_id=bal


ORIOLES TELEVISION NETWORK PERSONNEL
Direct Line: 410-547-6122

John Claiborne, Director of Broadcast Development, was the former President and Chief Operating Officer for New England Sports Network (NESN). John is responsible for developing the Orioles's broadcast capabilities. On the production side are Bob Whitelaw and Chris Glass. Bob, former Vice-President of Programming and Operations for NESN will be in charge of programming and operations.


This whole battle in Washington is about cable TV homes. The O's need DC to make it work.......BUT a DC team does not need Baltimore

dcb33
09-26-2004, 08:29 PM
With the Sox in the AL East, we would never have a chance and I would be through with baseball. Bright idea BUDDY...:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:See, it's that kind of attitude that explains why we're losers. This could do nothing but help the Sox becuase we would be guaranteed 22 sellouts, which can do nothing but help the Sox make more money at the gate and through the media. Moving the Sox would actually help the team become as attractive as the Cubs becuase we would finally be able to start drawing people, which will never happen as long as we play Kansas City and Detroit 9 or 10 times a year at the Cell.
We also should be glad about this opportunity because there's no doubt Boston and New York are able to bring in a lot of money because of the hype created by their rivalry, and if we could muscle in on that hype and become rivals with them, that will only help make our team stronger financially, which will make us better in the long run.

This could be the Sox chance to turn itself into a big market team by creating more interest and fan follwoing in the team. That will NEVER happen as long as we're stuck in a division with a bunch of pathetic teams that don't have a realistic shot at winning it all.

It might take 5 or 10 years given the shape our team is in, but if we could ever compete with Boston and New York, we would instantly gain credibility as a franchise and might actually be able to win it all...

Vernam
09-26-2004, 08:33 PM
Don't make us come up there Fenway!!! heh. We'd already have the nemesis fan on the board, to make the Bosox games more fun.Yeah, us old-timers still mourn the loss of those East Coast rivalries when the Sox got shunted to the original West division.

If the Gammons plan goes through -- and I'd put serious money against it -- the best effect would be to distract Sox fans from the weird inferiority regarding the Cubs, since media favoritism toward the Yanks and Red Sox makes even the Cubune pale in comparison. :wink: We could triple our (dis)pleasure, to paraphrase the old Wrigley ads for Doublemint.

(Hey, I already admitted I'm an old-timer!)

VC

dcb33
09-26-2004, 08:34 PM
Thanks Lip! I agree with KR, all the Baltimore fans would riot if they moved out of the AL East.
And what would lead you to believe ownership in Baltimore cares what it's fans think considering the joke of a team they manage to field year in year out?

Tragg
09-26-2004, 08:42 PM
Check out what Boston drew on their one visit to "The Cell" in 2004I understand your frustration.

I wasn't around, but from 1940-1964, we probably finished second to the Yankees half of those years at least.

We have enough hell as it is- I don't need that hell as well.

2 huge spending teams; and mark my words, Tampa Bay will spend if they ever get close. Just the division JR needs for his small market team.

Kogs35
09-26-2004, 08:47 PM
OK here is the scoop

The Orioles are in the process of leaving Comcast SportsNet and starting their own TV network ( see NESN and YES )

They hired away the 2 people responsible for NESN

http://orioles.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bal/news/bal_news_story.jsp?article_id=bal_20020123_ostv_co ls&team_id=bal


ORIOLES TELEVISION NETWORK PERSONNEL
Direct Line: 410-547-6122

John Claiborne, Director of Broadcast Development, was the former President and Chief Operating Officer for New England Sports Network (NESN). John is responsible for developing the Orioles's broadcast capabilities. On the production side are Bob Whitelaw and Chris Glass. Bob, former Vice-President of Programming and Operations for NESN will be in charge of programming and operations.


This whole battle in Washington is about cable TV homes. The O's need DC to make it work.......BUT a DC team does not need Baltimore
fenway why hasnt this been brought up since 02?

Fenway
09-26-2004, 08:55 PM
fenway why hasnt this been brought up since 02?
The Orioles current deal with Comcast expires after 2005

Comcast bought the former HTS ( Home Team Sports ) from Viacom

http://www.comcastsportsnet.com/

SOXSINCE'70
09-26-2004, 09:14 PM
100% ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

If we go to the AL East we are screwed. We have enough trouble competing in a ''weak" division as it is. :angry:
18 to 19 games a year w/the Yankmees and BoSox??

My God,they'd wipe up the floor with the White Sox!!

You are correct.The White Sox in the A.L. East= no shot every year.:angry: :angry: :angry:

MRKARNO
09-26-2004, 09:15 PM
Stats to consider which are free to interpretation:

The White Sox averaged 33,766 over the 6 games that Boston and NY played here vs 21,333 when they played any other team. The White Sox averaged 25,407 when they played their current chief rivals Minnesota and Cleveland. The White Sox on the other hand only averaged 14,222 against Tampa and Baltimore while they averaged 22,570 against KC and Detroit.

batmanZoSo
09-26-2004, 10:04 PM
I don't buy the argument that "you can't compete with Bo$ton and the Yankee$". The Blue Jays won 2 championships by opening up the wallet and levelling the salary playing field. It can be done, and the White Sox can do it too.

The more I think of it, the more I like this (ludicrous) notion of moving to the AL East:

-- it forces current ownership to put up and spend money to compete and win at the Boston-New York level
-- it forces current ownership to sell to someone who WILL take on the Red Sox & Yanks

That's so true. Teams like Toronto and Florida can do it; we can too. Those two had to break up after a year or two, we wouldn't. When you consider how great the attendance was when we were winning this year, imagine if we made a world series. Don't anyone tell me there's an attendance problem here or a lack of fans. I piss on you. That's not the case. There's a commitment problem; a winning problem. But no attendance problem. It doesn't matter what division we're in, if we spend money we can compete.

balke
09-26-2004, 10:06 PM
18 to 19 games a year w/the Yankmees and BoSox??

My God,they'd wipe up the floor with the White Sox!!

You are correct.The White Sox in the A.L. East= no shot every year.:angry: :angry: :angry:
Ultimate pessimism. We hold our own with the East, we just can't beat the freakin central or the West.

GiveMeSox
09-26-2004, 10:15 PM
100% ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

If we go to the AL East we are screwed. We have enough trouble competing in a ''weak" division as it is. :angry:
This would be the worst move the white sox could ever make. Sure they might create some more attention becuase the yanks and redsox draw big crowds whereever they go but we would shooting ourselves in the foot. There is no way we could compete on that level over the years. Why on earth would we want to go up against 120 mil+ payrolls 19 times a year. That is ridcolous. Cleveland or Detroit should go, they are actually part of the eastern time zone. We are a midwest team in a midwest town. This is the most ridicoulous idea i have ever heard. We would become the new orioles or jays of that division, always 3rd of 4th, even with 90 wins.

Gosox1917
09-26-2004, 10:27 PM
Maybe I'm missing something but what do the Orioles gain by moving to the NL East. Just keep it the same and things will be just fine for them. I don't think there are too many Orioles fans in the area that are going to go see the Expos play their arch-rival Pirates. It makes more sense to me to stay in a division where you play teams that bring people out to the ballpark like the Orioles do in the AL East. It just seems dumb to realign the league.

However, having watched baseball for almost a decade now, I've seen some dumb moves made. If the Orioles do go to the NL East like their owner wants, he won't allow for the Expos to move to the AL East to play the Yankees and Red Sox 19 times and draw people away from his team. I would say the Braves should move to the AL East making the divsions look like this.

AL East NL East
Atlanta Baltimore
New York Yankees Florida
Boston Montreal(Washington)
Toronto Philadelphia
Tampa Bay New York Mets

I would like to see the White Sox have a chance to win a division and for the next few years I think the Central gives them the best shot. And hey, at least the Braves wouldn't win the NL East again.:smile:

Fenway
09-26-2004, 10:38 PM
Angelos may be looking at it as 9/10 home dates with Washington 9/10 with Philadelphia and he escapes NYY and Boston.

dcb33
09-26-2004, 11:03 PM
Maybe I'm missing something but what do the Orioles gain by moving to the NL East. Just keep it the same and things will be just fine for them. I don't think there are too many Orioles fans in the area that are going to go see the Expos play their arch-rival Pirates. It makes more sense to me to stay in a division where you play teams that bring people out to the ballpark like the Orioles do in the AL East. It just seems dumb to realign the league.

However, having watched baseball for almost a decade now, I've seen some dumb moves made. If the Orioles do go to the NL East like their owner wants, he won't allow for the Expos to move to the AL East to play the Yankees and Red Sox 19 times and draw people away from his team. I would say the Braves should move to the AL East making the divsions look like this.

AL East NL East
Atlanta Baltimore
New York Yankees Florida
Boston Montreal(Washington)
Toronto Philadelphia
Tampa Bay New York Mets

I would like to see the White Sox have a chance to win a division and for the next few years I think the Central gives them the best shot. And hey, at least the Braves wouldn't win the NL East again.:smile:
What good is winning the division if we can't win the World Series? Please explain this to me. Yeah, so we win the Central, but lose in three games in the ALDS. Whooptie-freakin-do! I think if we moved we would bring in the $$$ to be able to spend like a big market team and hopefully win.

MRKARNO
09-26-2004, 11:05 PM
Angelos may be looking at it as 9/10 home dates with Washington 9/10 with Philadelphia and he escapes NYY and Boston. Distance between Baltimore and Washingon: 40 Miles
Distance between Baltimore and Philly: 100 Miles
Distance between Baltimore and New York: 200 miles
Distance between Baltimore and Boston: 430 miles

The three closer ones are in one division and the two further ones are in the other. Take your pick. (This isn't directed at you fenway, just incorporating your quote)

OurBitchinMinny
09-27-2004, 02:14 AM
Worst. Idea. Ever. Period.


We cant win the bleeping AL central which is typically the worst in baseball. Now lump us in with two teams who spend well over 100 mill and we are screwed. Plus even the drays give us trouble.

ChiSoxBobette
09-27-2004, 08:07 AM
Peter Gammons on WEEI Sunday morning was reacting to a story in the NY Daily News that the Orioles owner demand to allow Montreal to move to Washington he (Angelos) wants to move the Orioles to the NL East. Gammons stated that JR has told the executive council he would like to see the White Sox move into the east as it would create more interest in the Chicago market. He also said Toronto would want to move to the Centreal. Not clear yet what NL team would move to the AL. Stay tuned.

The NY story

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/col/story/235692p-202412c.html
If Jerry reinsdorf actually said he'd like the White Sox to move into the AL East then he better be prepared to open up the purse because with the Yankees, BoSox & a very promising Tampa Bay team the White Sox as they are would be a 4th or 5th place team and if JR does'nt see that the White Sox fill the ball park when they are in contention and moving them to the AL East we would always at best be a 3rd place team as long as he won't spend money then he is nuts.

SOXSINCE'70
09-27-2004, 08:16 AM
Ultimate pessimism. We hold our own with the East, we just can't beat the freakin central or the West.Unless Reinsdork opens the coffers to the tune of approximately
85-100 mill,this is not a good idea.:(: :(:
The Yankmees and BoSox are the ultimate powers in
this division,the D Rays are improving,and if any of their pitching
pans out,the Orioles will be a threat as well.

Finshing third,fourth or fifth should not be an option!!:angry: :angry:

Jurr
09-27-2004, 08:29 AM
See, it's that kind of attitude that explains why we're losers. This could do nothing but help the Sox becuase we would be guaranteed 22 sellouts, which can do nothing but help the Sox make more money at the gate and through the media. Moving the Sox would actually help the team become as attractive as the Cubs becuase we would finally be able to start drawing people, which will never happen as long as we play Kansas City and Detroit 9 or 10 times a year at the Cell.
We also should be glad about this opportunity because there's no doubt Boston and New York are able to bring in a lot of money because of the hype created by their rivalry, and if we could muscle in on that hype and become rivals with them, that will only help make our team stronger financially, which will make us better in the long run.

This could be the Sox chance to turn itself into a big market team by creating more interest and fan follwoing in the team. That will NEVER happen as long as we're stuck in a division with a bunch of pathetic teams that don't have a realistic shot at winning it all.

It might take 5 or 10 years given the shape our team is in, but if we could ever compete with Boston and New York, we would instantly gain credibility as a franchise and might actually be able to win it all...
The way the Sox can gain credibility is by letting Ozzie and KW mold this roster into a team that plays good fundamental baseball while still taking advantage of the home field advantage (keeping some power guys).

They spend some money on some more pitching, get a couple of other guys that can move runners over and hit for average, and then make a run at the central division.

If JR seizes this opportunity and forks out some decent money, this team is going to win. We've seen this year that the White Sox can draw when they're in contention. So, you put a good roster together, contend, then WIN the division. If the Sox can put together 3 or so division wins in a row, adding to that a deep run at the playoffs, this team gets the revenue and credibility that they need. Baltimore spends a lot of money, and they aren't getting anywhere. They picked up Lopez, Tejada, and Palmeiro, for God's sake, and they still got NOWHERE.

By bolstering this roster and putting together a club that gets a nose for the postseason, we'll see a club that Chicago will embrace, and when that happens, we'll see a big revenue spike and we'll get that credibility. That scenario best plays out in the AL Central.

doublem23
09-27-2004, 08:37 AM
See, it's that kind of attitude that explains why we're losers. This could do nothing but help the Sox becuase we would be guaranteed 22 sellouts, which can do nothing but help the Sox make more money at the gate and through the media. Moving the Sox would actually help the team become as attractive as the Cubs becuase we would finally be able to start drawing people, which will never happen as long as we play Kansas City and Detroit 9 or 10 times a year at the Cell.
We also should be glad about this opportunity because there's no doubt Boston and New York are able to bring in a lot of money because of the hype created by their rivalry, and if we could muscle in on that hype and become rivals with them, that will only help make our team stronger financially, which will make us better in the long run.

This could be the Sox chance to turn itself into a big market team by creating more interest and fan follwoing in the team. That will NEVER happen as long as we're stuck in a division with a bunch of pathetic teams that don't have a realistic shot at winning it all.

It might take 5 or 10 years given the shape our team is in, but if we could ever compete with Boston and New York, we would instantly gain credibility as a franchise and might actually be able to win it all...
I don't buy that at all. Look at the sellouts we were having last year and this year when they were playing well and winning. While opponent may have something to do with it, you want to sell out the Cell? Just ****ing win, no matter where you are. The Sox could be a big market team in the AL Central if they wanted to, but they don't. They'd rather play second fiddle to Minne-****ing-sota.

Jurr
09-27-2004, 08:38 AM
In other words, you've got a historical term....Priming the pump. It's what FDR did to get the US out of the depression.

Spend to earn. It takes money to jump start the process, and then the rest takes care of itself. Look at the Bulls. They made a ton of money because they spent on the front end.

From what I've read in the paper from Ozzie and Kenny, there seems to be a sentiment coming from the front office that they will spend to contend. Whether that's true or not remains to be seen. They've finally got a barometer on the situation that the park is good enough now that the fans will pack the damn thing when we are winning. Marketing for the team has picked up, as well. They've finally picked up on the marketing strategy of the intracity rivalry with the Cubs...good stuff.

If they spend some more money and load this roster up with talent (not overwhelming talent at all spots, but a good mix of youth and experience with the right mix of tools), this team will be a serious contender for the Central and the postseason. Then, the Sox will be the team that we're all hoping for.

Hangar18
09-27-2004, 10:53 AM
Maybe I'm missing something but what do the Orioles gain by moving to the NL East. Just keep it the same and things will be just fine for them. I don't think there are too many Orioles fans in the area that are going to go see the Expos play their arch-rival Pirates. It makes more sense to me to stay in a division where you play teams that bring people out to the ballpark like the Orioles do in the AL East. It just seems dumb to realign the league

The Orioles are probably thinking the same think Bud Selig thought when
he "moved" to the NL. The Orioles figure they get to play a bunch of EASIER teams, move to an Easier Division, and are ALWAYS in the hunt for a playoff spot. NEver mind that he'd be selling out his teams HISTORY for an easier chance to win .............. Mind you......Most of the nonsense you see happening in Baseball (cubs refusing to go to western division, allstar rotations phased out, allstar game ties, steroid abuse, DBacks refusing to go to AL like they were supposed to, etc etc) Is Because there is NO COMMISSIONER

Wealz
09-27-2004, 12:20 PM
See, it's that kind of attitude that explains why we're losers. This could do nothing but help the Sox becuase we would be guaranteed 22 sellouts, which can do nothing but help the Sox make more money at the gate and through the media. Moving the Sox would actually help the team become as attractive as the Cubs becuase we would finally be able to start drawing people, which will never happen as long as we play Kansas City and Detroit 9 or 10 times a year at the Cell.
We also should be glad about this opportunity because there's no doubt Boston and New York are able to bring in a lot of money because of the hype created by their rivalry, and if we could muscle in on that hype and become rivals with them, that will only help make our team stronger financially, which will make us better in the long run.

This could be the Sox chance to turn itself into a big market team by creating more interest and fan follwoing in the team. That will NEVER happen as long as we're stuck in a division with a bunch of pathetic teams that don't have a realistic shot at winning it all.

It might take 5 or 10 years given the shape our team is in, but if we could ever compete with Boston and New York, we would instantly gain credibility as a franchise and might actually be able to win it all...
Terrific post.

The Sox could win the A.L. Central for the next five years and it wouldn't do as much for interest in them as moving to the A.L. East would.

historian
09-27-2004, 12:31 PM
If it were to happen, and I doubt it will, I think it would be proof the MLB only cares about Chicago from a Cubs Nation perspective. Moving the Sox to that quagmire of a division would be the first step in moving them to Nashville. :angry:

Lip Man 1
09-27-2004, 12:31 PM
Sure where they could always finish in 3rd place.

'Anybody who thinks this team will spend as much money as the Yankees or Boston is crazy...' -- Jerry Reinsdorf 2007.

I thought the object of the game was just getting into the post season? Remember according to some, anything can happen once you get there. Tell how never being able to beat out the Yankees or Boston will generate fan interest in a perpetual 3rd place team?

This organization can't figure out a way to beat the Twins yet you think they can take on the big boys?????

:?:

Lip

dpbyron
09-27-2004, 12:40 PM
See, it's that kind of attitude that explains why we're losers. This could do nothing but help the Sox becuase we would be guaranteed 22 sellouts, which can do nothing but help the Sox make more money at the gate and through the media. Moving the Sox would actually help the team become as attractive as the Cubs becuase we would finally be able to start drawing people, which will never happen as long as we play Kansas City and Detroit 9 or 10 times a year at the Cell.
We also should be glad about this opportunity because there's no doubt Boston and New York are able to bring in a lot of money because of the hype created by their rivalry, and if we could muscle in on that hype and become rivals with them, that will only help make our team stronger financially, which will make us better in the long run.

This could be the Sox chance to turn itself into a big market team by creating more interest and fan follwoing in the team. That will NEVER happen as long as we're stuck in a division with a bunch of pathetic teams that don't have a realistic shot at winning it all.

It might take 5 or 10 years given the shape our team is in, but if we could ever compete with Boston and New York, we would instantly gain credibility as a franchise and might actually be able to win it all...Really? We would not sell out every one of those games. Even if we did, Uncle Jerry and his partners would certianly just pocket the money. They would also raises prices to "compete" with Boston and New York.

Plus, how frustrating would it be being 10 games out in June every year? Yeah, that will draw fans!

You make an interesting argument (Certianly what Buddy would say), BUT no matter what happens we will never be given the HYPE of the Bo-Sox or Yankee$$ Going to the AL EAST would be a total nightmare.

Wealz
09-27-2004, 12:59 PM
I thought the object of the game was just getting into the post season? Remember according to some, anything can happen once you get there. Tell how never being able to beat out the Yankees or Boston will generate fan interest in a perpetual 3rd place team?
The 2000 team competed pretty well against the Yankees, right? So you can't say never.

Also, ask season ticket holders how happy they are to see 4 weekend series a year against the Indians, Royals and Tigers compared to 1 weekend series a year versus the Yankees and Red Sox.

Kogs35
09-27-2004, 01:01 PM
The 2000 team competed pretty well against the Yankees, right? So you can't say never.

Also, ask season ticket holders how happy they are to see 4 weekend series a year against the Indians, Royals and Tigers compared to 1 weekend series a year versus the Yankees and Red Sox.
at least we r playing the devil rays at home on july4th this coming year

balke
09-27-2004, 01:02 PM
I hate dissing our Division, we'd actually have a lot of fan support if a lot of our teams were any good. KC has great fans, as well as Cleveland, and heck if we won I'm sure we'd show up to some games.


But yeah, the East looks like the best division always. I think our own credibility/fanbase would rise significantly playing against money teams.

SpringfldFan
09-27-2004, 01:52 PM
I cannot understand so much of this reasoning that a move to the east would doom the Sox. Concluding that the Sox' only chance is in the Central is openly admitting they are not the best team, have no chance at being the best team, and will not ever be the best team. That is an awful frame of mind for a fan to have IMO. That is a defeatist, and pessimistic attitude to have, and if I had to have that kind of attitude I would cease being a fan. What point is there to being a fan if you know you will never have a chance at being the best out there? The only hope you must have is that they can sneak into the playoffs (underservedly) and steal a championship because "anything can happen in a short series". Good Lord, what wonderful logic to base your fan pride on.:angry:

mrwag
09-27-2004, 02:22 PM
Moving the Sox to that quagmire of a division would be the first step in moving them to Nashville. :angry:
That'd be cool, since I'm probably moving to TN myself :D:

voodoochile
09-27-2004, 02:27 PM
I cannot understand so much of this reasoning that a move to the east would doom the Sox. Concluding that the Sox' only chance is in the Central is openly admitting they are not the best team, have no chance at being the best team, and will not ever be the best team. That is an awful frame of mind for a fan to have IMO. That is a defeatist, and pessimistic attitude to have, and if I had to have that kind of attitude I would cease being a fan. What point is there to being a fan if you know you will never have a chance at being the best out there? The only hope you must have is that they can sneak into the playoffs (underservedly) and steal a championship because "anything can happen in a short series". Good Lord, what wonderful logic to base your fan pride on.:angry:
:reinsy
"You tell them, SFF. Damned fans... always expecting the worst of my teams..."

Mohoney
09-27-2004, 03:43 PM
What point is there to being a fan if you know you will never have a chance at being the best out there?
:woo-woo

Ask him.

Medford Bobby
09-27-2004, 03:51 PM
:(: It would be like the 1950S again where good Sox teams were always looking up at the Yankmees in the standings......it would definitely force the Sox to be competitive, but how could you tell the map folks that Chicago is more "east" than Detroit:angry:

2004 White Sox Baseball......:gulp: "That's why God created alcohol"

Mickster
09-27-2004, 04:02 PM
Remember according to some, anything can happen once you get there.
How many times are you going to say that?

Lip,

Who were the winners of the last 2 world series?

:kukoo:

Clembasbal
09-27-2004, 04:06 PM
Maybe Reinsdok wants the Sox to fail in the AL East so fans stop going to games, and thus he has a case to move the team to Las Vegas or Portland. I mean he has scoped out those arenas because he is head of the MLB relocation committee, maybe he knows they will work.

:?:

Wealz
09-27-2004, 04:14 PM
:(: It would be like the 1950S again where good Sox teams were always looking up at the Yankmees in the standings......it would definitely force the Sox to be competitive, but how could you tell the map folks that Chicago is more "east" than Detroit:angry:

2004 White Sox Baseball......:gulp: "That's why God created alcohol"
I read recently that MLB would like to expand the number of playoff teams by 2 in each league perhaps as early as the next CBA. If that's the case I'd defenitely be in favor of moving to the east. Sorry, but I've bought more than my fair share of tickets for games against inferior AL Central opponents. No way the Orioles move away from the Yankees and Red Sox though.

Wealz
09-27-2004, 04:18 PM
Maybe Reinsdok wants the Sox to fail in the AL East so fans stop going to games, and thus he has a case to move the team to Las Vegas or Portland. I mean he has scoped out those arenas because he is head of the MLB relocation committee, maybe he knows they will work.

:?:
Replacing 18 home games against the Twins and Indians with the Yankees and Red Sox isn't going to decrease attendance.

doublem23
09-27-2004, 04:24 PM
Replacing 18 home games against the Twins and Indians with the Yankees and Red Sox isn't going to decrease attendance.
... for those 38 games, but what happens when we're scheduled 19 times a piece with the Blue Jays and Devil Rays while we're all 20+ games out of the division lead in mid-July?

If you honestly think playing second fiddle to the Yanks and Red Sox is better for the franchise then trying to be a big fish in a small bowl, I don't know what to say.

Worst. Argument. Ever.

MisterB
09-27-2004, 04:26 PM
Replacing 18 home games against the Twins and Indians with the Yankees and Red Sox isn't going to decrease attendance.
But perennially finishing 3rd or 4th in that division will. No one would have any reason to go to any games other than Yanks/Red Sox...

santo=dorf
09-27-2004, 04:38 PM
I surprised noone has mentioned that having more home games against the Red Sox and Yanks would increase attendance, but that would only be due to having two of the most obnoxious fan bases invade OUR stadium. I'd rather sit next to and empty blue seat than a Yankee or a BloSox fan. :mad:

OEO Magglio
09-27-2004, 04:45 PM
Just thinking about this is scary.

Wealz
09-27-2004, 04:49 PM
But perennially finishing 3rd or 4th in that division will. No one would have any reason to go to any games other than Yanks/Red Sox...
Are the Red Sox better than the Twins? Wouldn't competing for a wild card position be about the same as trying to win the AL Central?

MisterB
09-27-2004, 05:29 PM
Are the Red Sox better than the Twins? Wouldn't competing for a wild card position be about the same as trying to win the AL Central?1) Arguably, yes.

2) No. Winning the AL Central is easier. (And may I remind you the Sox can't even accomplish that.)

Lip Man 1
09-27-2004, 06:03 PM
Springfield says: "Concluding that the Sox' only chance is in the Central is openly admitting they are not the best team, have no chance at being the best team, and will not ever be the best team. That is an awful frame of mind for a fan to have IMO. That is a defeatist, and pessimistic attitude to have."

No it's a realistist attitude to have based on the self imposed salary structure, the philosophy of current ownership and the on field results of the past 24 years. Care to compare them with say the Yankees or Red Sox?

Lip

SpringfldFan
09-27-2004, 06:30 PM
Springfield says: "Concluding that the Sox' only chance is in the Central is openly admitting they are not the best team, have no chance at being the best team, and will not ever be the best team. That is an awful frame of mind for a fan to have IMO. That is a defeatist, and pessimistic attitude to have."

No it's a realistist attitude to have based on the self imposed salary structure, the philosophy of current ownership and the on field results of the past 24 years. Care to compare them with say the Yankees or Red Sox?

Lip
I don't disagree with you, and I am not saying it isn't a realistic attitude (it may or may not be). However, my point stands. You assert the Sox cannot compete straight-up against the best, so you want them to play in a "consolation" division that may get the Sox in the back door to a championship. But what good is the championship considering your implication that with the budget and owner they really won't ever be good enough to deserve that title? Again, maybe they sad truth is that they will never be good enough to really be the best because of the reasons you state. I refuse to convince myself that that is reality, because it it is truly reality, then I don't see any value in a cheap championship banner and there is no reason for me be be a true fan if I don't think they could do better.

I don't know, perhaps they could realign the divisions and leagues according to payroll and just have three champions: a small payroll champ, a midsize payroll champ, and a large payroll champ...

balke
09-27-2004, 06:34 PM
I don't disagree with you, and I am not saying it isn't a realistic attitude (it may or may not be). However, my point stands. You assert the Sox cannot compete straight-up against the best, so you want them to play in a "consolation" division that may get the Sox in the back door to a championship. But what good is the championship considering your implication that with the budget and owner they really won't ever be good enough to deserve that title? Again, maybe they sad truth is that they will never be good enough to really be the best because of the reasons you state. I refuse to convince myself that that is reality, because it it is truly reality, then I don't see any value in a cheap championship banner and there is no reason for me be be a true fan if I don't think they could do better.

I don't know, perhaps they could realign the divisions and leagues according to payroll and just have three champions: a small payroll champ, a midsize payroll champ, and a large payroll champ...
Us springfieldians are together on this one. Grow a pair, we can adapt to the division. Not like we've won a WS here recently. A lot of people on this board were already whining when we looked playoff bound, cause "Playoffs mean nothing if we don't get a WS". To be the best, you have to beat the best. Which isn't necessarily in the East, or even in the A.L. I'd like to get away from KC and Minne for a while. Cleveland's cool, but whatever. I like a pinstripes Rivalry, and SOX v. SOX. but it's all moot, it probably won't happen.

dcb33
09-27-2004, 07:52 PM
... for those 38 games, but what happens when we're scheduled 19 times a piece with the Blue Jays and Devil Rays while we're all 20+ games out of the division lead in mid-July?

If you honestly think playing second fiddle to the Yanks and Red Sox is better for the franchise then trying to be a big fish in a small bowl, I don't know what to say.

Worst. Argument. Ever.If we couldn't compete with the RED Sox and Yankees if placed in the AL East, then how would you expect us to compete with them and win the World Series if we were lucky enough to ever win the Comedy Central and face them in the postseason? I would rather take 3rd place finishes, losing straight up and having a realistic idea of where our team is at compared to real contenders than being given false hope and end up being disappointed every year...
It would be a great opportunity to turn this team around because if we ever got it together and found a way to win the AL East, we would definitely be SERIOUS contenders, not a team that tries to sneak a Championship with ridiculously halfassed lightning in the bottle schemes that never work...

Lip Man 1
09-27-2004, 08:30 PM
Mickster:

For every fluke Angels or Marlins (neither of whom even made the post season the year after they won the title), I can give you a dozen big spending clubs who make the playoffs seemingly EVERY season like the Yankees, Red Sox, Braves, Cardinals, Astros and in the 90's Indians.

Care to compare payrolls and the numbers of times in the post season? Perhaps my comment should have been in teal mocking those who feel winning the title is all about luck. It isn't...you spend more, you win more or at least have a substancially better chance of making the post season in the first place.

Lip

Gosox1917
09-27-2004, 08:51 PM
The more I think about it the more what I said earlier this thread makes sense. If the O's want to move to the NL East let them. Then put the Braves in the AL East. It would open the NL East wide open and all of a sudden O's fans have a reason to come out to the ballpark. Also, the Braves playing the Yankees and Red Sox 19 games apiece would create one helluva pennant race.

As far as the White Sox moving to the AL East, it would be good for attendance and revenue and all that crap that the ownership worries about but it I don't see a playoff birth. The Central may not be as exciting but quite frankly it seems like our best shot at the playoffs in the not-to-distant future.

balke
09-27-2004, 08:54 PM
Mickster:

For every fluke Angels or Marlins (neither of whom even made the post season the year after they won the title), I can give you a dozen big spending clubs who make the playoffs seemingly EVERY season like the Yankees, Red Sox, Braves, Cardinals, Astros and in the 90's Indians.

Care to compare payrolls and the numbers of times in the post season? Perhaps my comment should have been in teal mocking those who feel winning the title is all about luck. It isn't...you spend more, you win more or at least have a substancially better chance of making the post season in the first place.

Lip
Cards are only spending about as much as us. Payroll's going to raise your probability of winning, but doesn't guarantee squat. Cleveland is the scariest team in the league looking towards next year, and their current payroll is under 40 mil.

batmanZoSo
09-27-2004, 09:18 PM
Cards are only spending about as much as us. Payroll's going to raise your probability of winning, but doesn't guarantee squat. Cleveland is the scariest team in the league looking towards next year, and their current payroll is under 40 mil.

As good as Cleveland looks, they might go backwards too. Westbrook isn't this good I don't think, does he have another 3.35 season in him? Is Cliff Lee gonna be 12-8 with a 5.70 era again? I don't think so. Bullet Bob Howry is their best reliever. Lawton and Martinez might have down years compared to this--especially Lawton. They will definitely need to add to compete.

balke
09-27-2004, 09:20 PM
As good as Cleveland looks, they might go backwards too. Westbrook isn't this good I don't think, does he have another 3.35 season in him? Is Cliff Lee gonna be 12-8 with a 5.70 era again? I don't think so. Bullet Bob Howry is their best reliever. Lawton and Martinez might have down years compared to this--especially Lawton. They will definitely need to add to compete.
They will be hyped. It might be ALL hype, but with such a low salary this year, and attendance how it always is... I think they make some moves. I don't know a lot about thier organization though, so we'll see I guess. But they SHOULD have the $$$ to cough up to make a good run at at least the division.

OEO Magglio
09-27-2004, 09:24 PM
As good as Cleveland looks, they might go backwards too. Westbrook isn't this good I don't think, does he have another 3.35 season in him? Is Cliff Lee gonna be 12-8 with a 5.70 era again? I don't think so. Bullet Bob Howry is their best reliever. Lawton and Martinez might have down years compared to this--especially Lawton. They will definitely need to add to compete.
Let me add that Ron Belliard isn't going to be anywhere as good as he was this year, Vizquel is going to be gone, Cliff Lee has been horrendous the 2nd half of this year, they really only have 2 solid starters going into next season, unless they make some significant moves I think they will be going backwards next year.

doublem23
09-27-2004, 09:27 PM
If we couldn't compete with the RED Sox and Yankees if placed in the AL East, then how would you expect us to compete with them and win the World Series if we were lucky enough to ever win the Comedy Central and face them in the postseason? I would rather take 3rd place finishes, losing straight up and having a realistic idea of where our team is at compared to real contenders than being given false hope and end up being disappointed every year...
It would be a great opportunity to turn this team around because if we ever got it together and found a way to win the AL East, we would definitely be SERIOUS contenders, not a team that tries to sneak a Championship with ridiculously halfassed lightning in the bottle schemes that never work...Because the play-offs are a completely different monster than the regular season. You don't have to be the better team to win a best of 7 game play-off series; you have to be the better team to outlast your divisional opponents for a 162-game marathon. Case in point, the National League has been represented in the World Series for the last 4 years (IIRC) by its Wild Card team; a team not good enough to win its own division.

Anything can happen in the play-offs, you just have to get there (which is substantially easier in the American League Central than the American League East).

doublem23
09-27-2004, 09:34 PM
By the way...

:tomatoaward

I can't believe there's been 100 replies to something Peter Gammons said.

Frankfan4life
09-27-2004, 09:35 PM
Guess I'm the only person here who thinks this might be a good idea.


Good teams generally play to the level of the competition. The White Sox could load up with power hitters and count on slugging it out with the Yanks and Bosox if they were in this division. They'd also get as many games against Toronto and Tampa Bay if they made this division switch.Can you imagine the amount of homeruns the powerhitting Yanks and Bosox would be spraying out of The Cell? No one would want to pitch for the Sox.

Tragg
09-27-2004, 10:05 PM
What good is winning the division if we can't win the World Series? Please explain this to me. Yeah, so we win the Central, but lose in three games in the ALDS. Whooptie-freakin-do! I think if we moved we would bring in the $$$ to be able to spend like a big market team and hopefully win.
Because if we aren't in their division, we only have to outplay them in 7 games to beat them; if we are in their division we have to either outplay them for 162 games or outplay all other wild card contenders for 162 games AND THEN beat them again in 7 game series.
No thank you

batmanZoSo
09-27-2004, 10:43 PM
Because the play-offs are a completely different monster than the regular season. You don't have to be the better team to win a best of 7 game play-off series; you have to be the better team to outlast your divisional opponents for a 162-game marathon. Case in point, the National League has been represented in the World Series for the last 4 years (IIRC) by its Wild Card team; a team not good enough to win its own division.

Anything can happen in the play-offs, you just have to get there (which is substantially easier in the American League Central than the American League East).


I never realized that. Think how different history would've been had the wild card always been around. You think the Yankees would make it through round after round year after year in the 50s without running into some buzzsaw (id est, Chicago)?

dcb33
09-27-2004, 10:46 PM
Because if we aren't in their division, we only have to outplay them in 7 games to beat them; if we are in their division we have to either outplay them for 162 games or outplay all other wild card contenders for 162 games AND THEN beat them again in 7 game series.
No thank youThanks for pointing that out- I had no idea we'd have to play outplay both those teams in order to win the division...
You're totally missing what I'm trying to say-
The point is if we were in the same division and were able to improve our team enough to compete with the Red Sox and Yankees, it would mean our team would be very good, which would give us a much better chance of succeeding in the playoffs if we ever made it.... what chances would you have given the Sox this year had we snuck away with the Central?
If for no other reason, I think the realignment would be cool becuase baseball has no real Chicago/New York rivalry after they realigned, and I think baseball is missing out because of that.... There is no freakin way in a million years that a Boston/New York rivalry should be bigger than a Chicago/New York rivalry and yet it is...

Wealz
09-27-2004, 10:48 PM
Because if we aren't in their division, we only have to outplay them in 7 games to beat them; if we are in their division we have to either outplay them for 162 games or outplay all other wild card contenders for 162 games AND THEN beat them again in 7 game series.
No thank you
Winning a wild card spot wouldn't be appreciably more difficult than winning the A.L. Central most years. Anyway, the additonal revenue (higher payroll) and a higher profile would make up for the difference in difficulty.

Playing on a par with or better than the division rival Yankees and/or Red Sox would do something for the Sox that winning the A.L. Central could never do and that is steal the casual fan in this city away from the Cubs.

dcb33
09-27-2004, 10:53 PM
Winning a wild card spot wouldn't be appreciably more difficult than winning the A.L. Central most years. Anyway, the additonal revenue (higher payroll) and a higher profile would make up for the difference in difficulty.

Playing on a par with or better than the division rival Yankees and/or Red Sox would do something for the Sox that winning the A.L. Central could never do and that is steal the casual fan in this city away from the Cubs.Exactly- think of the extra $$$ the whole New York/Chicago rivalry would create that could be used to improve the team...
Where would the casual baseball fan rather go- to watch the Cubs play pissant Cincinnati Milwaukee or Pittsburgh in a crumbling joke of a stadium or to watch the Sox try to bring pride to Chicago and the midwest by taking on the Yankees?

Lip Man 1
09-27-2004, 11:05 PM
Cardinals have had payrolls in the 85 millions for years and no St. Louis is NOT spending just 60-65 million this season either. Remember they have a new park coming on line soon as well.Lip

SpringfldFan
09-27-2004, 11:07 PM
Because the play-offs are a completely different monster than the regular season. You don't have to be the better team to win a best of 7 game play-off series; you have to be the better team to outlast your divisional opponents for a 162-game marathon. Case in point, the National League has been represented in the World Series for the last 4 years (IIRC) by its Wild Card team; a team not good enough to win its own division.

Anything can happen in the play-offs, you just have to get there (which is substantially easier in the American League Central than the American League East).
MM, I appreciate your loyalty for the team and your fellow fans here, but I'm sorry I honestly cannot understand the "anything can happen in the playoffs" reasoning. To me you are conceding the Sox won't ever be the best but you will happily accept a championship won by reasons other then what a championship is for: to be the best. Playing 6 months against poor competition and sneaking 4 of 7 games (not by talent but because of chance since "anything can happen...") for a "championship" rings kind of hollow to me. I am not saying I would not be happy, but it is no reason for me to not want the chance to win it all legitimately. Just the humble opinion of a confused fan here...

yadosoxfan
09-27-2004, 11:23 PM
We'd have to make it past the yankees and red sox anyways to get to the ultimate prize anyways, the world series. Might as well just do it in the regular season, maybe we can play the twins or indians in the first round then...

cwsox
09-28-2004, 12:45 AM
I would love toi see us move to the East.

Nothing would help our attendance more, and nothing would get the team jacked up more.

The Yankees and Boston are true rivals. We will play better playing against them.

For all the fans who think we need to be a "weak" division, I suppose it would be best if we played in the Chicago Public League?

You get better by playing better teams. The Sox have played down to lesser teams and played up to quality teams.

I want to move to the AL East.

OEO Magglio
09-28-2004, 12:50 AM
We'd have to make it past the yankees and red sox anyways to get to the ultimate prize anyways, the world series. Might as well just do it in the regular season, maybe we can play the twins or indians in the first round then...
It's much easier to beat the bosox or yankees in a 5 or 7 game series then it is in a 162 game season.

JoseCanseco6969
09-28-2004, 12:56 AM
When I first read this thread, i thought NO FREAKING WAY and this would suck. But the more I think about it and while reading through these posts, I like it. Boston wont be as good next year, NY has pitching problems and I think the new rivalries would be great. Liek someone said earlier, if we cant make the damn playoffs in the central more than once every decade, why the hell not? We always play the *** sox and the yankees pretty good. I think it would spice things up, we'd get more national TV time, and IF we do win the division....we'd receive 50 times more credit versus a central win. I'm still not 100% on this, but i like it so far.

dcb33
09-28-2004, 12:59 AM
It's much easier to beat the bosox or yankees in a 5 or 7 game series then it is in a 162 game season.
It's like talking to a brick wall here- YES IT IS MORE DIFFICULT TO BEAT THEM OVER A SEASON! But if you can, you instantly gain more credibility and attention than you ever would if you won the Central 10 years in a row. If you take them on and prevail, you have a damn good chance of taking it all...

doublem23
09-28-2004, 01:24 AM
MM, I appreciate your loyalty for the team and your fellow fans here, but I'm sorry I honestly cannot understand the "anything can happen in the playoffs" reasoning. To me you are conceding the Sox won't ever be the best but you will happily accept a championship won by reasons other then what a championship is for: to be the best. Playing 6 months against poor competition and sneaking 4 of 7 games (not by talent but because of chance since "anything can happen...") for a "championship" rings kind of hollow to me. I am not saying I would not be happy, but it is no reason for me to not want the chance to win it all legitimately. Just the humble opinion of a confused fan here...
I appreciate your loyalty to the standards of yesterday. You're right, I am preaching basically cutting through a loophole, but honestly, this team hasn't won a championship since 1917; the oldest men and women I know don't remember the last time the Sox were World Champs. If the system throws us a bone, I'm willing to take it.

And I think the Sox can be the best. But with the economics of the game right now, I think it's going to be very hard for them to be the best for such a long period of time and that's no one's fault, it is just the way things are run. It's not a level playing field, and like I said, if the answer to the unfairness of baseball's regular season is the sheer luck that is needed to win in the post-season, I'm all for the Sox being more lucky than good when the time calls for it.

doublem23
09-28-2004, 01:27 AM
It's like talking to a brick wall here- YES IT IS MORE DIFFICULT TO BEAT THEM OVER A SEASON! But if you can, you instantly gain more credibility and attention than you ever would if you won the Central 10 years in a row. If you take them on and prevail, you have a damn good chance of taking it all...It is like talking to a brick wall.

Let's look at the math again.

19 vs. New York & 19 vs. Boston and then beating one or both out over the course of 6 months... tougher than... best of 5 vs. New York/Boston and best of 7 vs. New York/Boston.

I can't believe how many people buy JR's line that all that's needed for the Sox to up the spending is being shoved in the same division as the Yankees and Red Sox, as if we're not in competition for them as is. If you believe a word that comes out of his mouth, he's probably got some pretty good oceanfront property in Chicago for you.

:reinsy
There's just a lot a fish.

If we move to the A.L. East, that just means 9-10 home games every year with the Spanks and Sox that he sells out on top of the 3 vs. the Cubs every year. He gets a slightly fatter wallet, the Sox continue to underachieve, and we get screwed, anyway. He said he's make this into a world-class organization in 1980 and 24 years later, it's still as cheap, timid, and stupid (to steal the words from PHG) as it ever was.

IMPACT
09-28-2004, 01:30 AM
GAMMONS = MORON.

(but open your minds and imagine if the Sox were spurred to become a REAL team with a REAL OWNER who spent REAL MONEY to compete with the monied interests in Boston & NY. An annual 3-way brawl for the division among the AL's THREE MOST STORIED FRANCHISES...)
Don't you even dare try to compare the White Sox history with that of the Yankees or Red Sox. Frankly, the Cubs come much closer in overall success.

doublem23
09-28-2004, 01:34 AM
Don't you even dare try to compare the White Sox history with that of the Yankees or Red Sox. Frankly, the Cubs come much closer in overall success.
Please. Notice how no American League team has any phase of glory for roughly 70 years. For years the Sox were one of the best teams in baseball, they just always finished behind the best team ever.

http://espn.starwave.com/i/mlb/clubhouse/nyy.gif

Glory stealers.

santo=dorf
09-28-2004, 01:34 AM
Don't you even dare try to compare the White Sox history with that of the Yankees or Red Sox. Frankly, the Cubs come much closer in overall success.That may be true but noone brought the Cubs' history into the conversation.:troll

The White Sox are one of the original AL teams, and that means nothing?:dtroll:

poorme
09-28-2004, 08:47 AM
first off, this ain't gonna happen..but if it did, the sox would become a very appealing toy for someone with a lot of dough that wants to play with the big boys..donald trump or someone like that.

PaulDrake
09-28-2004, 10:48 AM
If it were to happen, and I doubt it will, I think it would be proof the MLB only cares about Chicago from a Cubs Nation perspective. Moving the Sox to that quagmire of a division would be the first step in moving them to Nashville. :angry: I think Charlotte is more likely if JR has hidden intentions.

voodoochile
09-28-2004, 10:57 AM
Don't you even dare try to compare the White Sox history with that of the Yankees or Red Sox. Frankly, the Cubs come much closer in overall success.
Go talk Flubs baseball somewhere else...

It's a Sox site...

Kogs35
09-28-2004, 01:00 PM
mariotti asked bruce levine if hes heard anything about sox

nodiggity59
09-28-2004, 01:19 PM
mariotti asked bruce levine if hes heard anything about soxWhat did he reply?

Kogs35
09-28-2004, 01:25 PM
What did he reply?
he said he couldnt understand why the sox would. then he said the 1 reason why they would do it is because they get boston and ny 19 times at home and that would be 40,000 *19 gates which equals 760,000 dollars in gate alone. with out consestions. and that it would make the sox a BIG market team.

Wealz
09-28-2004, 01:26 PM
By many accounts the last time Chicago was truly a Sox town was in the 50's a period where they consistently finished second to the Yankees. I don't think that's a coincedence.

One of the worst things that ever happened to the Sox was when they were shuffled off to the A.L. West when divisional play was instituted. They've been searching for a rival ever since.

Lip Man 1
09-28-2004, 01:32 PM
Wealz:

It also isn't a 'coincidence' that Chicago was a Sox town because EVERY SINGLE YEAR they had a 'winning' record from 1951 through 1967 inclusive.

It's no 'coincidence' that Chicago belonged to the Sox because they actually won a pennent in 59 and came agonizingly close in 64 and 67.

It's no 'coincidence' that Chicago was a Sox town because until 1965 the Cubs were an abomination, the joke of baseball.

I don't think the Yankees had much to do with it.

Lip

Iwritecode
09-28-2004, 02:09 PM
I don't disagree with you, and I am not saying it isn't a realistic attitude (it may or may not be). However, my point stands. You assert the Sox cannot compete straight-up against the best, so you want them to play in a "consolation" division that may get the Sox in the back door to a championship. But what good is the championship considering your implication that with the budget and owner they really won't ever be good enough to deserve that title? Again, maybe they sad truth is that they will never be good enough to really be the best because of the reasons you state. I refuse to convince myself that that is reality, because it it is truly reality, then I don't see any value in a cheap championship banner and there is no reason for me be be a true fan if I don't think they could do better.

Here's the thing, under current ownership, they probably can't and/or won't do much better than what they have in the past 24 years.

Under different ownership... who knows?

I think a lot of fans are sticking around long enough to see JR gone and hope that someone else can do a better job. If JR should happen to get lucky enough to get a ring while he's here, then we'll all be around for that as well...

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2004, 02:28 PM
Wealz:

It also isn't a 'coincidence' that Chicago was a Sox town because EVERY SINGLE YEAR they had a 'winning' record from 1951 through 1967 inclusive.

It's no 'coincidence' that Chicago belonged to the Sox because they actually won a pennent in 59 and came agonizingly close in 64 and 67.

It's no 'coincidence' that Chicago was a Sox town because until 1965 the Cubs were an abomination, the joke of baseball.

I don't think the Yankees had much to do with it.

LipAs a matter of fact, the Sox outdrew the Cubs as recently as the early 90's. Through most of recorded history, their respective attendance figures went up and down with the quality of the team on the field, just like almost every other team. The Cubs' dominance began relatively recently, about the time they were bought by the Tribune Co. Coincidence, I'm sure.

And this whole idea of the Sox moving to the AL East is nuts on so many levels it makes my head hurt. I'm sure Jerry would LOVE to have 38 games a year with the Yankers and Bosox, but so would Cleveland, Detroit, etc. etc. So what would happen to the Expos? They move to DC and join the AL Central? How crazy is that?

Consider the source of all this. It's Peter Gammons for crissake! This is just another of his hallucinations designed to convince people he's "in the know". You could take everything Gammons knows, tattoo it on a gnat's ass and still have room for the Gettysburg Address.

Hangar18
09-28-2004, 02:40 PM
Don't you even dare try to compare the White Sox history with that of the Yankees or Red Sox. Frankly, the Cubs come much closer in overall success.
Funny, because the CUBS themselves the last few years, have done Anything and Everything to compare themselves, Foolishly, to the Yankees and now the Red Sox.

"......the cubs come much closer in overall success" Did he really just say that? Next time someone says this to you .......you can reply with:

* DIdnt that team just discover Electricity in 1988?
* Havnt they NOT had 2 winning seasons in a row since NIXON was in office?

gosox41
09-28-2004, 02:44 PM
Wealz:

It also isn't a 'coincidence' that Chicago was a Sox town because EVERY SINGLE YEAR they had a 'winning' record from 1951 through 1967 inclusive.

It's no 'coincidence' that Chicago belonged to the Sox because they actually won a pennent in 59 and came agonizingly close in 64 and 67.

It's no 'coincidence' that Chicago was a Sox town because until 1965 the Cubs were an abomination, the joke of baseball.

I don't think the Yankees had much to do with it.

Lip
So winning brings fans to the park...hmmm. Where have I heard that before.

Lip, here's a hypothetical question. You said you won't financially support 'Uncle Jerry' as is your right. So let's assume that the Sox actually made the the Series in 2004. Let's say you were going to be in town. A friend calls you up and says he has an extra ticket or 2 and wants to sell them to you at face value? What do you do?



Bob

Foulke29
09-28-2004, 03:59 PM
One thought I've had through all of this is that second place means nothing - means squat. If the Sox were in the East, they'd either beat out Boston and N.Y. or they would finish in the cellar - this would give the Sox an opportunity to get some draft picks, and on top of that, they'd see more dollars from the television contracts of playing N.Y. and Boston - not to mention the cut from the N.Y. and Boston gates...

I don't think it's a bad idea at all.

Lip Man 1
09-28-2004, 04:06 PM
Bob:

I get the tickets. As I stated my loyalty is to the team not ownership. You're the only one who seems to have a problem with this. You are trying to deal in absolutes, black and white not shades of gray.

If I go to one game instead of like you, 60 a year you don't think that hurts ownerships pockets?

I could live with myself in this case because the greater good (i.e. seeing an actual live breathing World Series game) is more important then giving ownership 100 dollars instead of the thousands like you do. (as is your right.)

Lip

ewokpelts
09-28-2004, 04:10 PM
One thought I've had through all of this is that second place means nothing - means squat. If the Sox were in the East, they'd either beat out Boston and N.Y. or they would finish in the cellar - this would give the Sox an opportunity to get some draft picks, and on top of that, they'd see more dollars from the television contracts of playing N.Y. and Boston - not to mention the cut from the N.Y. and Boston gates...

I don't think it's a bad idea at all.the sox do not recieve gate money when they go to boston or new york.
Gene

Erik The Red
09-28-2004, 04:12 PM
the sox do not recieve gate money when they go to boston or new york.
Gene
Uh, I'm quite sure he was referring to the fact that Boston and NY fans travel well, and these games tend to sell out at the Cell.

OEO Magglio
09-28-2004, 04:15 PM
It's like talking to a brick wall here- YES IT IS MORE DIFFICULT TO BEAT THEM OVER A SEASON! But if you can, you instantly gain more credibility and attention than you ever would if you won the Central 10 years in a row. If you take them on and prevail, you have a damn good chance of taking it all...
Who gives a crap if the sox immediately gain credibility, I honestly could care less, guess what if they make it to the playoffs and beat either team then, what's going to happen?? If the sox have a chance at winning a world series in any of our life times they're going to have to be playing in the central and make it to the playoffs and take it from there, if they ever move to the east they aren't ever going to even make the playoffs.

ma_deuce
09-28-2004, 04:26 PM
If we continue playing like junk, it doesn't matter what division we are in. Anything but first place or a wild card berth is a wasted season. And since we can't seem to make it in this weenie division, who cares if they move to the east?

Foulke29
09-28-2004, 04:28 PM
Uh, I'm quite sure he was referring to the fact that Boston and NY fans travel well, and these games tend to sell out at the Cell.
And Bingo was his namo.

nodiggity59
09-28-2004, 04:29 PM
FWIW, Jayson Stark has posted an article on ESPN regarding the final stages of the Expos' move. He did not mention any potential division changing.

bc2k
09-28-2004, 05:20 PM
I didn't like the idea of the Sox moving to the AL East yesterday, but like another poster, had my mind changed from reading previous posts. I like the rivalry of Chicago/New York and Chicago/Boston. I agree that our credibility would be increased (possibly helping our Cy Young-worthy pitchers win the Cy Young, or at least get a respectable number of votes. See Toronto, 2003). I also salivate at the idea that the Sox could win back the city from the Cubs by playing teams like the Yanks and Sawx.

Here's a little something for those who feel that if the Sox switched to the AL East they'd never make the playoffs: Had the Sox not won the AL Central in 2000, their 95 wins would have been enough to win the Wild Card. Though you could argue that if the Sox were in the East, playing against the Yankees and Red Sox instead of the Central's Royals (77 wins) and Twins (69 wins), the Sox's win total would have been lower. But the Sox did face a 90-win Indians team and the Yanks and Sawx did face a 69-win Devil Ray team, so the divisions might be closer than we think.

I support the Sox moving to the East. If we win there, we'd be legit World Series contenders. Heck, if we win the Wild Card there, we'd be legit World Series contenders. And if we did win the WC, we wouldn't have to face either team in the first round. We'd be the team knocking out the Athletics every year in the first round!

Lip Man 1
09-28-2004, 06:21 PM
As a matter of fact the Sox do get a percentage of the gate when they play on the road. All American League teams get I think 25 cents on a dollar. I'll have to check the book 'Lords Of The Realm,' which spells it out.

Lip

TheBull19
09-28-2004, 06:46 PM
True, winning brings attendance, but with the Sox in the Central, even that seems to have little effect. Why? Because people don't even take winning in this division seriously. The last time the Sox had comparable or better attendance than the Cubs was back in the early nineties when they were in the West. If the sox had a competitive team in the East, there would be a lot more excitement because it would be a legitimate accomplishment to win there. Of course, if the Tigers and Royals returned to the level they were at in the eighties that would help, but let's face it, it probably isn't going to happen anytime soon.

doublem23
09-28-2004, 08:08 PM
True, winning brings attendance, but with the Sox in the Central, even that seems to have little effect. Why? Because people don't even take winning in this division seriously. The last time the Sox had comparable or better attendance than the Cubs was back in the early nineties when they were in the West. If the sox had a competitive team in the East, there would be a lot more excitement because it would be a legitimate accomplishment to win there. Of course, if the Tigers and Royals returned to the level they were at in the eighties that would help, but let's face it, it probably isn't going to happen anytime soon.
That's ridiculous... In the now 10 years the Sox have been in the Central they have drawn well whenever they are winning. Look at attendance in 1994 and do I need to remind people of what happened just this past year when things were going well?

Skirt it all you want, but moving to the A.L. East won't raise attendance the same way putting a winning product on the field will.

:reinsy
We always look for the easy way, doub. No sense in spending money when we can just move divisions. It's not like we compete with the Yankees and Red Sox now as is.

OEO Magglio
09-28-2004, 08:29 PM
True, winning brings attendance, but with the Sox in the Central, even that seems to have little effect. Why? Because people don't even take winning in this division seriously. The last time the Sox had comparable or better attendance than the Cubs was back in the early nineties when they were in the West. If the sox had a competitive team in the East, there would be a lot more excitement because it would be a legitimate accomplishment to win there. Of course, if the Tigers and Royals returned to the level they were at in the eighties that would help, but let's face it, it probably isn't going to happen anytime soon.
Did you see the attendance this year when the sox were winning?? Winning draws people to the park, period.

Wealz
09-28-2004, 08:53 PM
Skirt it all you want, but moving to the A.L. East won't raise attendance the same way putting a winning product on the field will.
That point is regardless of team performance in a given year being in the A.L. East would be in the best interests of this franchise. If a team is good enough to win the A.L. Central it's likely good enough to win a wild card and if the Sox were to draw 2.5M on a consistent basis they would be able to come close to spending what the Red Sox spend.

OEO Magglio
09-28-2004, 08:59 PM
That point is regardless of team performance in a given year being in the A.L. East would be in the best interests of this franchise. If a team is good enough to win the A.L. Central it's likely good enough to win a wild card and if the Sox were to draw 2.5M on a consistent basis they would be able to come close to spending what the Red Sox spend.
And you know this because reinsdorf tells you that right?? Were the twins good enough over a 162 game season to beat the redsox and yankees, I sure doubt it, so that comment makes no sense.

Wealz
09-28-2004, 09:05 PM
And you know this because reinsdorf tells you that right?? Were the twins good enough over a 162 game season to beat the redsox and yankees, I sure doubt it, so that comment makes no sense.
I don't understand your objection to switching divisions.

OEO Magglio
09-28-2004, 09:09 PM
I don't understand your objection to switching divisions.
Because the white sox would never make the playoffs, EVER.

Daver
09-28-2004, 09:33 PM
That point is regardless of team performance in a given year being in the A.L. East would be in the best interests of this franchise. If a team is good enough to win the A.L. Central it's likely good enough to win a wild card and if the Sox were to draw 2.5M on a consistent basis they would be able to come close to spending what the Red Sox spend.
That is flawed logic, and based on too many variables.

The Sox could draw 2.5 mil by simply fielding a winning team and marketing the fact that they field a winning team, the problem is they are too Cheap, Timid, and Stupid to do so.

dcb33
09-28-2004, 09:49 PM
Did you see the attendance this year when the sox were winning?? Winning draws people to the park, period.
But you have to win before you draw lots of people.... Yes, the Sox drew well but only after Memorial Day when it got warm and while they were in contention. The only exceptions to this were
1.)Opening Day
2.)When the Yankees came to town the second week of the season. Need I remind you we still drew 33000+ for those games even though it was brutally cold for baseball and raining?
3.)When Boston came to town after the Sox were out of it. All three games were sellouts.
If the switch were made you would have 22 guaranteed sellouts or near sellouts each season, which would bring in tens of millions of dollars in extra $$$ per year which they could use to spend like the other big market teams in the AL and it would generate a ton of media attention, moreso than would ever be created by matchups like the Sox/Royals Sox/Tigers even if the team were winning...
There's no doubt winning the Central would be much eaiser than winning the East or even the Wild Card, and no one who thinks this would be a good thing has said that... the unfortunate circumstance that has developed for the Sox is that we are trapped in an illegitimate hole of a division that doesn't have the potential to draw and create the $$$ necessary to put the team over the top...

What's with the self defeatist attitude anyway? You must be part of the Sox ownership group- "We will never be able to win anything, so why try?"

Flight #24
09-28-2004, 10:08 PM
Wow. Lots of chatter about something that was never likely and is pretty much now guaranteed not to happen.

In case anyone missed it, Jayson Stark reports that Angelo's conditions for DC are:
1) Guaranteed minimum revenue. It falls below a preset threshhold, MLB makes it up
2) Guaranteed minimum franchise sale price. Same as #1, but if/when the O's are sold.

No word on realignment, none really needed as part of the move (just the ongoing "6 teams in NLC, 4 in ALW - what can ya do???" issue).

batmanZoSo
09-28-2004, 10:44 PM
Wow. Lots of chatter about something that was never likely and is pretty much now guaranteed not to happen.

In case anyone missed it, Jayson Stark reports that Angelo's conditions for DC are:
1) Guaranteed minimum revenue. It falls below a preset threshhold, MLB makes it up
2) Guaranteed minimum franchise sale price. Same as #1, but if/when the O's are sold.

No word on realignment, none really needed as part of the move (just the ongoing "6 teams in NLC, 4 in ALW - what can ya do???" issue).

So what you're saying is Peter Gammons said something and it went on to not come into any shred of fruition? Wait a minute...the hurricanes, the California earthquake...tensions in the Middle East...and now this. Oh, no, all the signs are there... It's all in Revelations! Run for your liiiiives!

Mohoney
09-28-2004, 10:46 PM
Look at attendance in 1994Before the dark times, before the Empire...

Here is the reason why we don't average 30,000+ a game.
:reinsy

batmanZoSo
09-28-2004, 11:01 PM
Before the dark times, before the Empire...

Here is the reason why we don't average 30,000+ a game.
:reinsy

He's been a factor in that department and believe me I'm not a supporter whatsoever, but the fact is we really don't have an attendance problem. We drew fantastic when we were winning. Every game I went to but one in late April was one of those near-sell-outs with 32-35,000 or a legit sell-out. We just have to win to draw well. Of course the main reason we never win anything major is because of JR, so it's kind of a catch 22. But while we can't do anything about JR's presence with the team, we can hope that somehow KW puts together a winning team next year and attendance hits somewhere around 2.3, then JR increases payroll. And while we're fantasizing, maybe we get even better the following year from added free agents and he increases it even more amd so on. Of course as long as he's here, all we can do is hope and dream. But I think this is a legit possibility that we can somewhat pin our hopes on for the future. Just to look on the bright side...

OEO Magglio
09-29-2004, 12:09 AM
But you have to win before you draw lots of people.... Yes, the Sox drew well but only after Memorial Day when it got warm and while they were in contention. The only exceptions to this were
1.)Opening Day
2.)When the Yankees came to town the second week of the season. Need I remind you we still drew 33000+ for those games even though it was brutally cold for baseball and raining?
3.)When Boston came to town after the Sox were out of it. All three games were sellouts.
If the switch were made you would have 22 guaranteed sellouts or near sellouts each season, which would bring in tens of millions of dollars in extra $$$ per year which they could use to spend like the other big market teams in the AL and it would generate a ton of media attention, moreso than would ever be created by matchups like the Sox/Royals Sox/Tigers even if the team were winning...
There's no doubt winning the Central would be much eaiser than winning the East or even the Wild Card, and no one who thinks this would be a good thing has said that... the unfortunate circumstance that has developed for the Sox is that we are trapped in an illegitimate hole of a division that doesn't have the potential to draw and create the $$$ necessary to put the team over the top...

What's with the self defeatist attitude anyway? You must be part of the Sox ownership group- "We will never be able to win anything, so why try?"

Ha, I'm one of the most optimistic people here, but if you expect the sox to compete with the yankees or bosox in payroll or in the standings over a 162 game season your kidding yourself.

dcb33
09-29-2004, 01:21 AM
Ha, I'm one of the most optimistic people here, but if you expect the sox to compete with the yankees or bosox in payroll or in the standings over a 162 game season your kidding yourself.
There is no way we would be able to compete with them in terms of $$$ or W's right now because we obviously couldn't, and I never said that to begin with.... all I said was it would create extra $$$ which could be used to improve the team... Either way given the current state of affairs concerning the Sox I think it'll be a number of years and a total rebuild before we could seriously compete for the Central Division Crown again, so why not make the switch?

batmanZoSo
09-29-2004, 03:46 AM
There is no way we would be able to compete with them in terms of $$$ or W's right now because we obviously couldn't, and I never said that to begin with.... all I said was it would create extra $$$ which could be used to improve the team... Either way given the current state of affairs concerning the Sox I think it'll be a number of years and a total rebuild before we could seriously compete for the Central Division Crown again, so why not make the switch?


I agree with you. In theory it makes sense. Especially when you consider that you don't have to spend 120-180 million to beat the Yankees and Red Sox. You can with 50 or 60 (Marlins) or I like our chances to do it at 90-100. You add Pavano and Beltran to this team while adding two great middle/setup guys and we're competing for a World Championship. And after getting all those guys, what's our payroll? 90 million? Maybe if you had 18 more virtually guaranteed Red Sox/Yankee sellouts at the Cell along with more TV revenue from playing them, you can afford 90-100 on the south side. I'm sure we could afford that now, but in this case it would even be feasible with JR at the helm.

I mean it's pretty moot (especially now that it's overwith) to talk about and I never had any faith it would actually happen, but you do have a point.

C-Dawg
09-29-2004, 06:53 AM
Maybe moving the Sox to the AL East isn't a bad idea after all - at least we'd be free of that whole "baseball's weakest division" stigma we have to listen to every time the Sox win the division. Remember 1983 - the way the Sox dominated the entire second half and clinched in, what, August, and won by 20-some games? Maybe it was the weakest division, but the Sox certainly weren't weak. Same with 1993. And then in 2000, with the whole silly 3-divisions alignment, we're now in the Central but the east coast media types still think its the weakest division. In the unlikely event the Sox could win the AL East, there would be no one who'd say it was tainted because its the weakest division.

I have a better idea - lets move either the Yankees, or the Red Sox, or both, to the NL Central. That way, when they play the Cubs, the TV ratings would be so high there would not even be a need to broadcast, or even play, any other games for the rest of the season. They can just pretend its the Cubs-Red Sox world series that the whole free world and Mastercard wants.

gosox41
09-29-2004, 08:41 AM
Bob:

I get the tickets. As I stated my loyalty is to the team not ownership. You're the only one who seems to have a problem with this. You are trying to deal in absolutes, black and white not shades of gray.

If I go to one game instead of like you, 60 a year you don't think that hurts ownerships pockets?

I could live with myself in this case because the greater good (i.e. seeing an actual live breathing World Series game) is more important then giving ownership 100 dollars instead of the thousands like you do. (as is your right.)

Lip
You stated earlier that you weren't going to games because you can't stand ownership. It's your right to do that. I just wanted to see what you would do if the Sox made the World Series under JR's terms. I figured you'd all of the sudden backtrack and go to games despite the fact that JR still owns the team.



Bob

voodoochile
09-29-2004, 09:12 AM
But you have to win before you draw lots of people.... Yes, the Sox drew well but only after Memorial Day when it got warm and while they were in contention. The only exceptions to this were
1.)Opening Day
2.)When the Yankees came to town the second week of the season. Need I remind you we still drew 33000+ for those games even though it was brutally cold for baseball and raining?
3.)When Boston came to town after the Sox were out of it. All three games were sellouts.
If the switch were made you would have 22 guaranteed sellouts or near sellouts each season, which would bring in tens of millions of dollars in extra $$$ per year which they could use to spend like the other big market teams in the AL and it would generate a ton of media attention, moreso than would ever be created by matchups like the Sox/Royals Sox/Tigers even if the team were winning...
There's no doubt winning the Central would be much eaiser than winning the East or even the Wild Card, and no one who thinks this would be a good thing has said that... the unfortunate circumstance that has developed for the Sox is that we are trapped in an illegitimate hole of a division that doesn't have the potential to draw and create the $$$ necessary to put the team over the top... This is just bad math.

It wouldn't bring in extra $10's of millions of dollars. It would bring in the marginal difference in attendance over those extra 13 games - roughly 15K fans/game or an extra 195K fans - roughly $8M in total revenue (including parking, food and clothing sales). Now the Sox would have to balance that against the loss of 13 games against their current "rivals" - the Twins and Tribe. When they are in contention or in a playoff spot hunt those games are already sellouts, so the extra money might be only $5M or even less.

In addition, those games would lose some of their novelty appeal - happening 9 times a year instead of 3 times a year - so they might not all be sellouts when the Sox weren't doing well on the field - the fans of B & NY would spread themselves out and not feel the crush to go to the games the few times a year they get the chance.

You would also be replacing games against the Royals and the Tigers with games against Tampa and Toronto, so it wouldn't all be good for business, in fact it might end up hurting us over the long run. Sox floundering around .500 or lower in third (or fourth) place 15 games out of the WC and 20 games out of first with 6 games in August and September against Tampa would NOT help the seasonal attendance. Can you say 5K/game? I knew you could...

Finally, even if you are correct and these games would all sell out, no matter how the Sox were doing on the field, you would merely be handing more free money to JR to pocket, not necessarily to improve the team. It might lead to a flubbie-esque situation where JR knows he will make money no matter what, so who cares if the team is decent.

So, you might add $8M to the over all revenue. You might see all of that go toward payroll (yeah, right). You might see a payroll around $70M/year based on current numbers. That would be a one year bump after that, the payroll would be stuck at that level as it is now the lower one.

How is that supposed to suddenly make the Sox world beaters in a division with the two highest payrolls in baseball?:rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
09-29-2004, 01:05 PM
There is a notation in the Daily Southtown today on this stating that Uncle Jerry has categorically denied (through Scott Reifert of course...) this even came up at owners meetings.

Either someone heard about Gammons / newspaper comments or someone in the Sox organization caught wind of this topic at WSI.

Lip

Kogs35
09-29-2004, 01:14 PM
There is a notation in the Daily Southtown today on this stating that Uncle Jerry has categorically denied (through Scott Reifert of course...) this even came up at owners meetings.

Either someone heard about Gammons / newspaper comments or someone in the Sox organization caught wind of this topic at WSI.

Lip
mariotti mentioned it yesterday and bruce levine even heard it and said the sox wherent moving

maurice
09-29-2004, 01:29 PM
Board chairman Jerry Reinsdorf adamantly denied a rumor claiming he would seek to move the Sox to the American League East in the wake of the Montreal Expos being relocated to Washington D.C., a move expected to be announced by Thursday. Through team spokesman Scott Reifert, Reinsdorf said a move to the East by the Sox was never even discussed. Under such a scenario, the White Sox not only would have to compete with the Red Sox and Yankees — and their obscene payrolls — but an increased number of 6:05 p.m. starts likely would negatively impact television ratings.
Linky (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/291sd5.htm)

Wealz
09-29-2004, 01:29 PM
That is flawed logic, and based on too many variables.

The Sox could draw 2.5 mil by simply fielding a winning team and marketing the fact that they field a winning team, the problem is they are too Cheap, Timid, and Stupid to do so.
I think it will take a World Series team and not just a winning team for the Sox to approach 2.5M again. There simply aren't enough attractive opponents to generate the requisite season ticket sales otherwise IMO.

Wealz
09-29-2004, 01:43 PM
This is just bad math.

It wouldn't bring in extra $10's of millions of dollars. It would bring in the marginal difference in attendance over those extra 13 games - roughly 15K fans/game or an extra 195K fans - roughly $8M in total revenue (including parking, food and clothing sales). Now the Sox would have to balance that against the loss of 13 games against their current "rivals" - the Twins and Tribe. When they are in contention or in a playoff spot hunt those games are already sellouts, so the extra money might be only $5M or even less.

In addition, those games would lose some of their novelty appeal - happening 9 times a year instead of 3 times a year - so they might not all be sellouts when the Sox weren't doing well on the field - the fans of B & NY would spread themselves out and not feel the crush to go to the games the few times a year they get the chance.

You would also be replacing games against the Royals and the Tigers with games against Tampa and Toronto, so it wouldn't all be good for business, in fact it might end up hurting us over the long run. Sox floundering around .500 or lower in third (or fourth) place 15 games out of the WC and 20 games out of first with 6 games in August and September against Tampa would NOT help the seasonal attendance. Can you say 5K/game? I knew you could...

Finally, even if you are correct and these games would all sell out, no matter how the Sox were doing on the field, you would merely be handing more free money to JR to pocket, not necessarily to improve the team. It might lead to a flubbie-esque situation where JR knows he will make money no matter what, so who cares if the team is decent.

So, you might add $8M to the over all revenue. You might see all of that go toward payroll (yeah, right). You might see a payroll around $70M/year based on current numbers. That would be a one year bump after that, the payroll would be stuck at that level as it is now the lower one.

How is that supposed to suddenly make the Sox world beaters in a division with the two highest payrolls in baseball?:rolleyes:
There would be increased demand in season tickets the second the Sox moved to the East. Think about it, 22 must-see games as opposed to 9 currently in a full season ticket package, or 12 must-see games as opposed to 6 currently in a 27-game package. More importantly the higher TV ratings for Yankees and Red Sox games would increase revenue greatly.

nodiggity59
09-29-2004, 02:09 PM
I think people fail to realize that our attendance against Toronto and the Devil Rays could increase simply b/c they would be in our division.

In other words, there's no inherent reason why the Royals and Detroit draw more. They only do b/c they are divisional foes.

ewokpelts
09-29-2004, 06:56 PM
Before the dark times, before the Empire...

Here is the reason why we don't average 30,000+ a game.
:reinsy
:reinsy
"Everything is proceeding according to my plan"

batmanZoSo
09-29-2004, 08:44 PM
This is just bad math.

It wouldn't bring in extra $10's of millions of dollars. It would bring in the marginal difference in attendance over those extra 13 games - roughly 15K fans/game or an extra 195K fans - roughly $8M in total revenue (including parking, food and clothing sales). Now the Sox would have to balance that against the loss of 13 games against their current "rivals" - the Twins and Tribe. When they are in contention or in a playoff spot hunt those games are already sellouts, so the extra money might be only $5M or even less.

In addition, those games would lose some of their novelty appeal - happening 9 times a year instead of 3 times a year - so they might not all be sellouts when the Sox weren't doing well on the field - the fans of B & NY would spread themselves out and not feel the crush to go to the games the few times a year they get the chance.

You would also be replacing games against the Royals and the Tigers with games against Tampa and Toronto, so it wouldn't all be good for business, in fact it might end up hurting us over the long run. Sox floundering around .500 or lower in third (or fourth) place 15 games out of the WC and 20 games out of first with 6 games in August and September against Tampa would NOT help the seasonal attendance. Can you say 5K/game? I knew you could...

Finally, even if you are correct and these games would all sell out, no matter how the Sox were doing on the field, you would merely be handing more free money to JR to pocket, not necessarily to improve the team. It might lead to a flubbie-esque situation where JR knows he will make money no matter what, so who cares if the team is decent.

So, you might add $8M to the over all revenue. You might see all of that go toward payroll (yeah, right). You might see a payroll around $70M/year based on current numbers. That would be a one year bump after that, the payroll would be stuck at that level as it is now the lower one.

How is that supposed to suddenly make the Sox world beaters in a division with the two highest payrolls in baseball?:rolleyes:

It wouldn't be a novelty, it would be high-profile, good baseball.

And do Detroit and Kansas City attract that much more excitement than Toronto and Tampa Bay?

DaveGusinSeattle
09-29-2004, 09:32 PM
"Maybe Reinsdok wants the Sox to fail in the AL East so fans stop going to games, and thus he has a case to move the team to Las Vegas or Portland." by Clement***

Moving to the AL East would be step 1 before Failing and moving to the Great NW!
Portland, here we come!!! :smile:


Just kidding:bandance: I couldn't resist.:dtroll:

Tragg
09-29-2004, 10:28 PM
Thanks for pointing that out- I had no idea we'd have to play outplay both those teams in order to win the division...
You're totally missing what I'm trying to say-
The point is if we were in the same division and were able to improve our team enough to compete with the Red Sox and Yankees, it would mean our team would be very good, which would give us a much better chance of succeeding in the playoffs if we ever made it.... what chances would you have given the Sox this year had we snuck away with the Central?
If for no other reason, I think the realignment would be cool becuase baseball has no real Chicago/New York rivalry after they realigned, and I think baseball is missing out because of that.... There is no freakin way in a million years that a Boston/New York rivalry should be bigger than a Chicago/New York rivalry and yet it is... I understood what you were trying to say but I think it's, frankly ridiculous. Sure if we can beat both those teams we have a better chance; but if we have that quality team in the central we have the same chance in the playoffs than if we played in the east. The DIFFRENCE is that playing out of the central we don't NEED that quality of team to reach the playoffs. Once in the playoffs, you have a chance. And you DO NOT need that quality of team to win the WS either- I'll use the Florida Marlins as Exhibit A- they can't beat the bloody braves over a 162 game seson, but they damn sure can beat teams in 7 games. Also the Angels, the Twins a while back---the best team doesn't always win. I wouldn't mind winning without the best team- and in our case, if we do win, we probably won't have the best team.

dcb33
09-29-2004, 10:41 PM
I understood what you were trying to say but I think it's, frankly ridiculous. Sure if we can beat both those teams we have a better chance; but if we have that quality team in the central we have the same chance in the playoffs than if we played in the east. The DIFFRENCE is that playing out of the central we don't NEED that quality of team to reach the playoffs. Once in the playoffs, you have a chance. And you DO NOT need that quality of team to win the WS either- I'll use the Florida Marlins as Exhibit A- they can't beat the bloody braves over a 162 game seson, but they damn sure can beat teams in 7 games. Also the Angels, the Twins a while back---the best team doesn't always win. I wouldn't mind winning without the best team- and in our case, if we do win, we probably won't have the best team.Did you watch the double header between the Twins and Yankees today? I know it isn't the playoffs, but the Yankees flat out proved they were the better team, and I doubt the Twins will do much better if they face the Yankees again next week because they always turn it up a notch in the postseason. The DIFFERENCE between the Central Champion and the East Champion is that the EAST Champion HAS to be good in order to win the division and therefore holds an advantage over everyone else in the playoffs, whereas the Central Champion has to do just enough to beat a handful of crappy teams to sneak its way in, which it's pretty since the AL Central came into existence (with the possible exception of the mid 90's Indians)....

OEO Magglio
09-29-2004, 10:43 PM
Did you watch the double header between the Twins and Yankees today? I know it isn't the playoffs, but the Yankees flat out proved they were the better team, and I doubt the Twins will do much better if they face the Yankees again next week because they always turn it up a notch in the postseason. The DIFFERENCE between the Central Champion and the East Champion is that the EAST Champion HAS to be good in order to win the division and therefore holds an advantage over everyone else in the playoffs, whereas the Central Champion has to do just enough to beat a handful of crappy teams to sneak its way in, which it's pretty much done ever since the AL Central has existed (with the exception of the mid 90's Indians)....
Well this is just a matter of opinion but I'll bet you if the twins and yankees play each other in the playoffs the twins will win the series. By the way you failed to mention that it was predetermined before the game that Santana was only going to pitch 5 innings no matter what and when he left they had the lead.

dcb33
09-29-2004, 10:48 PM
Well this is just a matter of opinion but I'll bet you if the twins and yankees play each other in the playoffs the twins will win the series. By the way you failed to mention that it was predetermined before the game that Santana was only going to pitch 5 innings no matter what and when he left they had the lead.I am aware that they intentionally had Santana pitch 5 innings tonight, and in doing so they showed great weakness in their bullpen because they blew it. Santana at most will give you 2 starts in a 5 game series, and if that does happen, that means the Yankees would have 3 looks at him in as many weeks, and now matter how good you are, at some point a lineup that is as good as the Yankees lineup is going to figure it out....

doublem23
09-29-2004, 11:30 PM
I think it will take a World Series team and not just a winning team for the Sox to approach 2.5M again. There simply aren't enough attractive opponents to generate the requisite season ticket sales otherwise IMO.
String 2-3 years of a solid, winning team and the Sox will have no trouble drawing 2.5 million consistently. Attractiveness of opponents is irrelevant, IMO, when compared to the attractiveness of the Sox.

batmanZoSo
09-29-2004, 11:30 PM
"Maybe Reinsdok wants the Sox to fail in the AL East so fans stop going to games, and thus he has a case to move the team to Las Vegas or Portland." by Clement***

Moving to the AL East would be step 1 before Failing and moving to the Great NW!
Portland, here we come!!! :smile:


Just kidding:bandance: I couldn't resist.:dtroll:

Kidding or not, just imagine the crowds and TV deal in Portland. My god, we couldn't afford Crede in Portland.

Wealz
09-29-2004, 11:43 PM
String 2-3 years of a solid, winning team and the Sox will have no trouble drawing 2.5 million consistently. Attractiveness of opponents is irrelevant, IMO, when compared to the attractiveness of the Sox.
I disagree obviously on the 2.5M figure. To me the thing that's most troubling about Sox attendance is that even with as many discounted ticket days as they have they still can't break the pedestrian 2M figure.

The Yankees and Red Sox are 1st and 3rd respectively in MLB road attendance. The highest ranking AL Central team is the Tigers who are 25th.

JKryl
09-30-2004, 01:35 PM
I don't buy the argument that "you can't compete with Bo$ton and the Yankee$". The Blue Jays won 2 championships by opening up the wallet and levelling the salary playing field. It can be done, and the White Sox can do it too.

The more I think of it, the more I like this (ludicrous) notion of moving to the AL East:

-- it forces current ownership to put up and spend money to compete and win at the Boston-New York level
-- it forces current ownership to sell to someone who WILL take on the Red Sox & Yanks
One could say that it "should" force the current ownership to put up or shut up, but we aren't dealing with rational owners. If JR's argument is that it would peak interest to watch the Sox play the Yankee$ and Red Sox, this implies that new fans would be brought into the fold. This won't help once the Sox start compiling a 61 and 101 record year after year. Not only will he be losing the newbees, but he'd be giving poor Brooks Boyer a monumental headache in just trying to keep the attendance at the current level. He'd be much better off just trying to replace Mags and Frank with quality players.

By the way, how come the spell checker doesn't recognize "Sox"?

Wealz
09-30-2004, 02:08 PM
One could say that it "should" force the current ownership to put up or shut up, but we aren't dealing with rational owners. If JR's argument is that it would peak interest to watch the Sox play the Yankee$ and Red Sox, this implies that new fans would be brought into the fold. This won't help once the Sox start compiling a 61 and 101 record year after year. Not only will he be losing the newbees, but he'd be giving poor Brooks Boyer a monumental headache in just trying to keep the attendance at the current level. He'd be much better off just trying to replace Mags and Frank with quality players.

By the way, how come the spell checker doesn't recognize "Sox"?
A 61-win team in the East might translate to a 67-win team in the Central and that won't move the turnstyles either.

bigfoot
09-30-2004, 02:22 PM
There would be increased demand in season tickets the second the Sox moved to the East. Think about it, 22 must-see games as opposed to 9 currently in a full season ticket package, or 12 must-see games as opposed to 6 currently in a 27-game package. More importantly the higher TV ratings for Yankees and Red Sox games would increase revenue greatly.
I think that we're sneaking upon the real money behind this possibility. Not the added home dates of the NY/BoSox(though it won't hurt), but the added TV ad revenue from having the majority of the away games broadcast in PRIMETIME into the major East Coast markets on Comcast/WGN vs. the smaller market Cen Div foes.
~If JR just wants to increase the home attendance, wouldn't making a minor league franchise/s move much closer to Chicago be a long term solution? When the Indianapolis franchise became available at the end of this year, it would have been a great opportunity to return the Sox AAA team there. The interest created by the proximity to Chicago could have been boundless, coupled with a single A franchise in the Midwest League, would provide those wonderful busloads of hopeful fans, populating the UD and bringing home tales of a White Sox experience. The Evil Empire has used this marketing ploy for years with great success. As much as the White Sox faithful likes to cast aspersions upon the Lovable Losers, they do know how to market.
~Sorry Voodoo, but the chances of a busload of Charlotte fans attending a WS home is remote. But that extra 10 busloads of fans @ 50 tickets=5000 extra fannies in the seats every game. Suddenly that 25k/game is 30k and 2.5m per year in attendance.

DaveGusinSeattle
09-30-2004, 03:13 PM
I think that we're sneaking upon the real money behind this possibility. Not the added home dates of the NY/BoSox(though it won't hurt), but the added TV ad revenue from having the majority of the away games broadcast in PRIMETIME into the major East Coast markets on Comcast/WGN vs. the smaller market Cen Div foes.

Comcast Chicago will be broadcast on cable and satellite into Sox territory only. No change from the current MLB out-of-market rules. These and WGN games are blacked out in opposing teams territory as well. I know, I pay big money for the out-of-market MLB games. The difference is the owners will make more money [and have more control of] TV games now, since they just eliminated the middleman, FOX, for these LOCAL broadcasts.

ewokpelts
09-30-2004, 03:17 PM
I think that we're sneaking upon the real money behind this possibility. Not the added home dates of the NY/BoSox(though it won't hurt), but the added TV ad revenue from having the majority of the away games broadcast in PRIMETIME into the major East Coast markets on Comcast/WGN vs. the smaller market Cen Div foes.
~If JR just wants to increase the home attendance, wouldn't making a minor league franchise/s move much closer to Chicago be a long term solution? When the Indianapolis franchise became available at the end of this year, it would have been a great opportunity to return the Sox AAA team there. The interest created by the proximity to Chicago could have been boundless, coupled with a single A franchise in the Midwest League, would provide those wonderful busloads of hopeful fans, populating the UD and bringing home tales of a White Sox experience. The Evil Empire has used this marketing ploy for years with great success. As much as the White Sox faithful likes to cast aspersions upon the Lovable Losers, they do know how to market.
~Sorry Voodoo, but the chances of a busload of Charlotte fans attending a WS home is remote. But that extra 10 busloads of fans @ 50 tickets=5000 extra fannies in the seats every game. Suddenly that 25k/game is 30k and 2.5m per year in attendance.%#%$ INDY....we should try and get the Kane County Cougars. And to be honest...i dont think having a minor league team affiliated with you nearby helps attendance...ask teh brewers(who just ended thier relationship with beloit).
Gene

PaleHoseGeorge
09-30-2004, 08:12 PM
%#%$ INDY....we should try and get the Kane County Cougars. And to be honest...i dont think having a minor league team affiliated with you nearby helps attendance...ask teh brewers(who just ended thier relationship with beloit).
Gene
Actually Beloit is a very small town, and economically depressed, too. As Wisconsinites, it is almost a point of state pride to root for the Brewers, the state's only MLB team. Thus I agree Beloit adds very little to the Brewers' bottom line.

Indianapolis for the Sox would be totally different. It's a big city located in a state that has no MLB team of its own. The southern-half goes heavily for the Reds, but the northern-half has largely become no-man's land. Unlike much of northern Illinois, Sox Park is easily the most convenient major league ballpark for Hoosiers from northern Indiana to travel to. Furthermore the Sox have a legacy of drawing fans from Indiana, built on several decades of having a AAA team in Indy.

Besides South Siders traveling to Indy to see the AAA affiliate, northern Indiana can be expected to bring extra fans to Sox Park. This is a no-brainer way to build Sox attendance which is why it will probably never happen.

No Brainer -------------> :reinsy

batmanZoSo
10-01-2004, 12:25 AM
Actually Beloit is a very small town, and economically depressed, too. As Wisconsinites, it is almost a point of state pride to root for the Brewers, the state's only MLB team. Thus I agree Beloit adds very little to the Brewers' bottom line.

Indianapolis for the Sox would be totally different. It's a big city located in a state that has no MLB team of its own. The southern-half goes heavily for the Reds, but the northern-half has largely become no-man's land. Unlike much of northern Illinois, Sox Park is easily the most convenient major league ballpark for Hoosiers from northern Indiana to travel to. Furthermore the Sox have a legacy of drawing fans from Indiana, built on several decades of having a AAA team in Indy.

Besides South Siders traveling to Indy to see the AAA affiliate, northern Indiana can be expected to bring extra fans to Sox Park. This is a no-brainer way to build Sox attendance which is why it will probably never happen.

No Brainer -------------> :reinsy


When I lived in NW Indiana 12 years ago I got the impression that it was dominated by Sox fans.

dcb33
10-01-2004, 01:31 AM
When I lived in NW Indiana 12 years ago I got the impression that it was dominated by Sox fans.The ironic part of this disucssion is that the Sox did have a minor league franchise very close to Chicago.
I'm originally from La Porte, and when I was a kid my family and I would often travel to South Bend to watch the minor league team there, which when we first started going was a AA affiliate of the Sox. Eventually it was downgraded to a A minor league club before it was sold. The Silverhawks are now a A affiliate of the Diamondbacks.

This was an incredibly stupid move by the White Sox to sell that team becuase they had a beautiful stadium in South Bend (although I hear it isn't in that great of shape anymore), and it was close enough to Chicago that everyone in NW Indiana could easily go see both teams......

bigfoot
10-01-2004, 01:36 AM
When I lived in NW Indiana 12 years ago I got the impression that it was dominated by Sox fans.
That's correct batman, it WAS.....until the D-backs took the single A, South Bend White Sox and the owners turn them into the Silver Hawks. There were several times that the White Sox would send their players to South Bend for re-hab assignments, drawing huge crowds(Fisk most notably). It worked well for both clubs, the big club would stir up interest in the minor league club during the pre-season and the minor leaguers would pique the interest in the parent club. Many bus trips were destined for Comiskey from South Bend. 110 miles right up I-80.
~The same thing was true of the Indy Indians in the 50's-60's, before the Reds got the franchise after the Sox left for Edmonton(where it took two days and the crossing of the International Dateline to be recalled). Also one of the reasons that S. Indiana has a fondness for the Reds(re: Peoria and the Cards).
~Too bad JR seem to wish his minor league teams as far away from Chicago as is possible. Though, with San Juan open next year..........
~JR must get a great deal at Pinehurst!

doublem23
10-01-2004, 01:40 AM
I disagree obviously on the 2.5M figure. To me the thing that's most troubling about Sox attendance is that even with as many discounted ticket days as they have they still can't break the pedestrian 2M figure.

The Yankees and Red Sox are 1st and 3rd respectively in MLB road attendance. The highest ranking AL Central team is the Tigers who are 25th.
How many discount days did the Sox have this year? It seemed like Mondays were pretty much never available. I remember over the summer when I was in Chicago, my friends and I tried to plan to go to a handful of Sox games but we soon found out that there were maybe 4 1/2 Price Mondays over the summer as opposed to the last few years when there have been at least 7-8 over the summer alone.

And, in the end, I still don't think any "get-people-in-fast" gimmick will do the job to fill the stands. The biggest trouble with Sox attendance is not walk-up crowd issues; it's that the Sox have a very small season ticket base. Adding an extra 15 games a year against the Yankees and Red Sox, IMO, won't add to that number, and while the team will draw well when plenty of annoying Yankee and Red Sox fans invade the Cell, the bottom line will be the Sox will draw roughly the same as usual no matter where they play or what they do until they reestablish organizational credibility and pretend like they want to win. You want to get more season ticket holders? Make them realize that White Sox baseball is a worthy investment and the only way to do that is market the team better and produce a winning product. Perpetually finishing second in the Central or third in the East won't get it done.

Anyway, this isn't going to happen. Why are there nearly 200 posts on it?

alohafri
10-01-2004, 09:34 PM
Like Reinsdork, Gammons is an idiot!

Whitesox029
10-02-2004, 01:02 AM
**** THAT!!

If any team has to go to the AL EAST, it should be the Tigers.Moving the Sox is a stupid stupid idea because we are in the central time zone. Playing in a different time zone than the rest of your division is inconvenient for fans who want to watch away games (see Colorado, Texas). From West to East, the teams in our division are as follows: KC, Min, SOX, Det, Cle. Thus, wouldn't it make the most sense to move Cleveland to the East??

kitekrazy
10-02-2004, 11:57 AM
I've basically stopped watching ESPN because of crap like this. I've watched a lot of unaccountable propaganda spread since the last NFL season concerning Peyton Mannings contract.

I just wish ESPN would give Gammons his meds before they take him out of the nursing home.

The quality of journalism from ESPN matches that of the Nat'l Enquirer.