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View Full Version : White Sox going after Carlos Beltran this offseason?


Aidan
09-24-2004, 04:01 AM
This is an excerpt from the latest issue of Sporting News (http://www.sportingnews.com/) magazine (September 27, 2004 issue)...
INSIDE DISH
By Ken Rosenthal


"... The White Sox likely will pursue Beltran if they lose RF Magglio Ordonez as a free agent, but they would need to move LF Carlos Lee or 1B Paul Konerko to create enough flexibility to address other needs."

The Cheat
09-24-2004, 05:28 AM
depends who his agent is. I know it WAS Boras, but I've heard rumors that he was looking to change agents.

FightingBillini
09-24-2004, 05:53 AM
We can only hope. However, Maggs will sign a $1mil contract with the Sox with $10mil in incentives, and earn them all. Afterwards, he realizes that KW was the only one willing to take a chance on him, so he signs a contract below market value to finish his career here.

munchman33
09-24-2004, 07:57 AM
finish his career here.
Me thinks he already did.

SOXSINCE'70
09-24-2004, 08:22 AM
Me thinks he already did.
In refernce to your sig ("So go to a game"),I go to anywhere from 27-30 every year.I support this team despite management's stupidity.

How about you?:dunno: :dunno:

Rocky Soprano
09-24-2004, 09:28 AM
Boras is not Beltran's agent.

DumpJerry
09-24-2004, 09:41 AM
Boras is not Beltran's agent.Are you sure? I hope you're right He was earlier this year........personally, I think Borass is a vermin on pro sports. BTW, some people say Beltran is more hype than substance when his numbers are looked at closely.....

Mickster
09-24-2004, 10:10 AM
Are you sure? I hope you're right He was earlier this year........personally, I think Borass is a vermin on pro sports. BTW, some people say Beltran is more hype than substance when his numbers are looked at closely.....
When I look at his numbers closely, I see a 40/40 player who can play CF with the best of 'em. :cool:

Rocky Soprano
09-24-2004, 10:18 AM
Are you sure? I hope you're right He was earlier this year........personally, I think Borass is a vermin on pro sports. BTW, some people say Beltran is more hype than substance when his numbers are looked at closely.....
I apologize I dont know who else I was thinking about, it seems that Borass is his agent.

doublem23
09-24-2004, 10:19 AM
In refernce to your sig ("So go to a game"),I go to anywhere from 27-30 every year.I support this team despite management's stupidity.

How about you?:dunno: :dunno:
There's that great quote from, I think someone who worked for the Blue Jays, that said MLB teams can pretty much work their books to show and financial gain or loss they want and it's all pretty much legal, so who knows how much the Sox are raking in and/or losing?

Also, to use the restaurant metaphor again, you wouldn't go to a bad restaurant a lot because you think the owner will see the spike in business and raise the quality of his food, would you? No, you'd go to a restaurant that is good and reward the owner for investing in his product by spending your money there. Same deal with baseball. Capitalism is a bitch, man. :bandance:

AddisonStSox
09-24-2004, 10:48 AM
Capitalism is a bitch, man. :bandance:
http://www.footforever.com/English/European_Championship_en/Images_en/Ussr_drapeau_CE_en.jpg

"Thats what we've been saying."

Brian26
09-24-2004, 11:00 AM
Boras is not Beltran's agent.
As of a month ago, Boras was his agent. Was this a recent switch in the last month?

Kogs35
09-24-2004, 11:05 AM
As of a month ago, Boras was his agent. Was this a recent switch in the last month?
yes he switched agents at the end of august.

Brian26
09-24-2004, 11:07 AM
yes he switched agents at the end of august.
Hey, that's great news. I wasn't aware of that. Maybe we in fact have an outside shot of signing him.

santo=dorf
09-24-2004, 11:18 AM
From Today's Southtown.
www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/241sd4.htm (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/241sd4.htm)

Carlos Lee was back in the White Sox's starting lineup for Thursday's 7-6 win over the Kansas City Royals, one day after taking a personal leave from the team to tend to his ill child.


According to one source, the final 10 games of the season could be the final 10 games Lee plays while wearing a Sox uniform.

While general manager Ken Williams insisted Thursday he has no plans concerning the offseason yet, a source close to the situation said one scenario the Sox will explore is to trade Lee and pursue Houston's Carlos Beltran, who is expected to file for free agency.

In order to pay the hefty price for Beltran, the Sox would probably not try to resign soon-to-be free agent Magglio Ordonez and trade either Lee or first baseman Paul Konerko. Both Lee and Konerko are signed through next season, with Konerko set to make $8.75 million and Lee $8 million. Lee also has a club option for 2006.
If Lee gets traded, does the new team have the 2006 option for him? Or is it picked up when he gets traded?

Randar68
09-24-2004, 11:25 AM
This is an excerpt from the latest issue of Sporting News (http://www.sportingnews.com/) magazine (September 27, 2004 issue)...
With that being said, what do people think Beltran's value is. Given a 5 year contract, just hypothetically, what type of deal to people expect him to sign this offseason?

Keep in mind everyone else on the market: pitchers, OF'ers, SS's, 3B, etc and team needs. Who else is in the market for Beltran?

5 years, 70 million? (14 per?) Earlier this year there was a lot of talk about 16-18, but I think anyone short of Barry Bonds or ARod is going to be hard-pressed to do that well this year...

Here are his stats: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6132

A 40/40 switch-hitting gold-glove CF'er with a ~.370-.380 OBP and a ~.950 OPS who will turn 28 in the first month of the 2005 season???

14 million? I'd do it. Is there anyone else out there who would put up 14 million at him? The Mets have Cameron in CF... Maybe the Yanks?

Tekijawa
09-24-2004, 11:27 AM
Some how I bet we "come in second" in the bidding for Beltran, like we do for every big name Free Agent.

Randar68
09-24-2004, 11:27 AM
From Today's Southtown.
www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/241sd4.htm (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/241sd4.htm)


If Lee gets traded, does the new team have the 2006 option for him? Or is it picked up when he gets traded?
Well, considering Lee and Konerko are both FA's after 2005, but Lee has an option, they'll probably trade whichever has better value, IMO, that's Lee...

I don't know what they'll do, but with Frank back through 2006? they have a lot of "long-term" money to spend, as I don't think they have any $$$ committed to a single position player past 2006...

Hangar18
09-24-2004, 11:37 AM
From Today's Southtown.
www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/241sd4.htm (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/241sd4.htm)


If Lee gets traded, does the new team have the 2006 option for him? Or is it picked up when he gets traded?

The SOX Shell Game continues. Guys making lots of money (never mind that the SOX themselves structured the deals, never intending on paying the players, sort of like declaring bankruptcy when the bill comes due)
This is absolutely STUPID. We were short offensively because we Lost Ordonez. So
we'll "trade" Lee, to Sign Beltran. Guess what? WEre Robbing Peter to Pay Paul (konerko, no pun intended) now we Need a Carlos Lee type-player again ......... Ridiculous. So .........Realizing the Front door is broken, and needing to Fix it, they remove the Back Door and
use it to replace the Front door, ineptly needing a New Back door now.
Dumb.

Mickster
09-24-2004, 11:38 AM
With that being said, what do people think Beltran's value is. Given a 5 year contract, just hypothetically, what type of deal to people expect him to sign this offseason?

Keep in mind everyone else on the market: pitchers, OF'ers, SS's, 3B, etc and team needs. Who else is in the market for Beltran?

5 years, 70 million? (14 per?) Earlier this year there was a lot of talk about 16-18, but I think anyone short of Barry Bonds or ARod is going to be hard-pressed to do that well this year...

Here are his stats: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6132

A 40/40 switch-hitting gold-glove CF'er with a ~.370-.380 OBP and a ~.950 OPS who will turn 28 in the first month of the 2005 season???

14 million? I'd do it. Is there anyone else out there who would put up 14 million at him? The Mets have Cameron in CF... Maybe the Yanks?$14 Mil in a heartbeat! I'd seriously offer Vlad $$ for him without much reservation....

Mets might be players but they first must attempt to unload Piazza and his $15.5m 2005 salary. Rumors are that they are looking for a power-hitting 1B. Konerko anyone???

Randar68
09-24-2004, 11:42 AM
The SOX Shell Game continues. Guys making lots of money (never mind that the SOX themselves structured the deals, never intending on paying the players, sort of like declaring bankruptcy when the bill comes due)
This is absolutely STUPID. We were short offensively because we Lost Ordonez. So
we'll "trade" Lee, to Sign Beltran. Guess what? WEre Robbing Peter to Pay Paul (konerko, no pun intended) now we Need a Carlos Lee type-player again ......... Ridiculous. So .........Realizing the Front door is broken, and needing to Fix it, they remove the Back Door and
use it to replace the Front door, ineptly needing a New Back door now.
Dumb.
More incoherent babbling? Doesn't that get tiresome?

We were short offensively because we lost Frank and his .420 OBP in the 3-hole and replaced him by moving up a few .350 OBP-types. Maggs is a great player to hit BEHIND Frank, because Frank is on base so often and Maggs is a contact hitter with 30 HR power. Lee can be the Ordonez, but I'd "trade" Lee out for Beltran in a heartbeat if it meant getting some players to fill one or 2 of the 3-4 other holes in the line-up...

Could the Sox offer Maggs a small 1-year deal with a 2nd year option, Trade Lee and/or Konerko and still have the money to sign Beltran? Maybe...

Randar68
09-24-2004, 11:43 AM
$14 Mil in a heartbeat! I'd seriously offer Vlad $$ for him without much reservation....

Mets might be players but they first must attempt to unload Piazza and his $15.5m 2005 salary. Rumors are that they are looking for a power-hitting 1B. Konerko anyone???
I'd send them Konerko in a heartbeat as well. Did the Red Sox sign an extension with Doug Mientijhssfasjitz?

gosox41
09-24-2004, 11:45 AM
Some how I bet we "come in second" in the bidding for Beltran, like we do for every big name Free Agent.

Probably. But is just getting Beltran isn't getting this team to the World Series. No need to tie up a lot of money in one player.


Bob

Mickster
09-24-2004, 11:46 AM
I'd send them Konerko in a heartbeat as well. Did the Red Sox sign an extension with Doug Mientijhssfasjitz?Nothing noted yet. They have many other free-agent problems to address before Dougie's contract becomes an issue. I think they have a minimum 4-5 big-named free agents.... Also frees up a lot of salary for them, though.. Could they make a run at Beltran??? :?:

Randar68
09-24-2004, 11:47 AM
Could they make a run at Beltran??? :?:
Would Damon be available then?

Mickster
09-24-2004, 11:53 AM
Would Damon be available then?
I would certinly think so considering some of the Maggs to Boston scenarios thrown around earlier in the year included Damon to Sox. It was more of a proposed salary dump than anyting for Boston, though.

Hangar18
09-24-2004, 11:55 AM
[QUOTE=Randar68]More incoherent babbling? Doesn't that get tiresome?
QUOTE]

ActuallyRandar, NOOOOOOOOO. It doesnt. What does get tiresome is
Falling short year after year after year after year after year. The Non-Constructive Comments, Personal Barbs and Holier-than-though comments
I just Ignore

Randar68
09-24-2004, 11:56 AM
[QUOTE=Randar68]ActuallyRandar, NOOOOOOOOO. It doesnt. What does get tiresome is Falling short year after year after year after year after year. The Non-Constructive Comments I just Ignore
You ignore your own comments?


interesting...

Randar68
09-24-2004, 11:58 AM
I would certinly think so considering some of the Maggs to Boston scenarios thrown around earlier in the year included Damon to Sox. It was more of a proposed salary dump than anyting for Boston, though.
Just checking it out, but Boston already has about 40 million committed to next year's OF. Damon at 8.5 million, Trot Nixon at 7.5 Million, and Manny at something like 23.5 million...

They'd have to dump someone to even start thinking about adding another OF'er unless they were willing to make Manny the full-time DH, something I think he's been against in the past...

Hangar18
09-24-2004, 12:02 PM
You ignore your own comments?


interesting...

You can write? Even more interesting

Randar68
09-24-2004, 12:05 PM
You can write? Even more interesting
Coming from someone who apparently doesn't understand punctuation or the meaning of "run-on sentence", I guess that's a compliment...
:dunno:

thepaulbowski
09-24-2004, 12:07 PM
They'd have to dump someone to even start thinking about adding another OF'er unless they were willing to make Manny the full-time DH, something I think he's been against in the past...
As good as Manny is, you can't pay him that much money just to be a DH. Well, unless you're the Yankees.

Mickster
09-24-2004, 12:07 PM
Just checking it out, but Boston already has about 40 million committed to next year's OF. Damon at 8.5 million, Trot Nixon at 7.5 Million, and Manny at something like 23.5 million...

They'd have to dump someone to even start thinking about adding another OF'er unless they were willing to make Manny the full-time DH, something I think he's been against in the past...I have a feeling that they would unload Damon in a heartbeat for a shot at Beltran. Remember, Varitek, Lowe, Pedro, Nomar (already gone), Timlin, Wlliamson, etc.. are all gone to the tune of just under $50M. They have to fill some holes, namely SP, C, pen, SS (probably sign Cabrera to 6-8m/yr. deal) but they could easily dump Damon and add Beltran for a net cost of $6-7m/yr.... Manny is going nowhere and Nixon is still relatively cheap at $7m or so thru end of 2006.

Pretty sad, actually, when 7 of Boston's FA that are/might be leaving at end of year total $50M, or 80% of our entire payroll. :(:

Randar68
09-24-2004, 12:09 PM
As good as Manny is, you can't pay him that much money just to be a DH. Well, unless you're the Yankees.
How does having him in LF actually help you? He's a hack! If your DH is Kevin Millar, for example, wouldn't you rather swap Manny and Millar? Don't you think any mediocre athlete could play a better LF than Manny?

just asking

Hangar18
09-24-2004, 12:17 PM
Coming from someone who apparently doesn't understand punctuation or the meaning of "run-on sentence", I guess that's a compliment...
:dunno:
Coming from someone who apparently doesnt understand the art of friendly
conversation, preferring instead to rip on others at opportune times because
his knowledge is perceived to be much more than others, I too take that as
a compliment.
Whatever man, why dont you pick on some other of us SOX fans who
arent as knowledgable (dang, forgot the ' again) as you are.

To reiterate my point again, before someone started throwing rocks....... Is Were playing a foolish shell game, weakening one position
to fill another, all the while, we were the ones who weakened the position
to begin with. Will this team ever get better ........

Randar68
09-24-2004, 12:28 PM
Will this team ever get better ........Would you be complaining if Maggs and Thomas had been healthy? I highly doubt it, as I think that team had playoffs written all over it. You can't overcome losing 1/3rd of your payroll mid-season. Why re-hash it over and over and over? Do you just prefer to always be in a perpetual panic and anxiety attack?

:chickenlittle

balke
09-24-2004, 12:29 PM
When I look at his numbers closely, I see a 40/40 player who can play CF with the best of 'em. :cool:
"The tools are definitely there."

The guy is lighting fast on the bases, and can go yard. He does have a problem making contactwhen he's not going yard. He has decent OBP, just a bad Avg. You'd think someone who can connect for 40 HR, has only a matter of time before he raises his avg.

infohawk
09-24-2004, 12:29 PM
Just some thoughts...

I seriously doubt that KW will seek to sign Carlos Beltran. The Sox self-imposed payroll restrictions simply won't allow for one player to eat up the kind of salary Beltran would command in the open market. As it presently stands, KW will probably be obligated to trade either Lee or Konerko to free up the salary necessary to fill other holes.
Konerko is the most likely to be traded because his trade value is high since he is coming off a fantastic statistical season. While Lee's numbers aren't quite as good a Konerko's, Lee possesses more speed and might be a better fit in the offense the Sox purportedly are seeking to build. I also think Konerko is a bit more expensive than Lee. All bets are off, however, if a team offers more for Lee than the Sox think they could get for Konerko.

I believe that KW will attempt to parlay either Lee or Konerko into a starting pitcher and or bullpen help as well as one or more position player prospects. I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that the major free-agent signing will be a starting pitcher and possibly another bullpen arm. If the Sox acquire two solid starters, I wouldn't be surprised to see them deal Garland for something they could use at either the major league or minor league level. I don't think Garland would be traded to Texas for Soriano as some rumors have it. Soriano is a free swinger whose defense is atrocious and I think Ozzie would scream in protest.

All this being said, I predict that KW will move very quickly to re-orient this team toward pitching and defense. This off-season could prove to be very different than last year's offseason in this respect. My hunch, and just a hunch, is that if there is any disappointment among Sox fans, it will be the failure to acquire any "big name" position players. I think any position players the Sox acquire will best be described as "versatile."

mdep524
09-24-2004, 12:32 PM
Could the Sox offer Maggs a small 1-year deal with a 2nd year option, Trade Lee and/or Konerko and still have the money to sign Beltran? Maybe...
That would be perfect! Man, I would be so excited if that happened. And there should be a petty decent market for Konerko this off season. (or Lee, but obviously I would much rather trade Paulie) Boston allegedly is interested, the Yanks will likely need a new 1B (if Giambi becomes a fulltime DH), the Mets, as previously mentioned may be interested, perhaps the Angels, Dodgers...


Probably. But is just getting Beltran isn't getting this team to the World Series. No need to tie up a lot of money in one player.
You're right, getting Beltran alone will not get this team to the World Series. But think of the excitement and good vibes it would create among the organization and Sox fans. There would be a good feeling of enthusiasm coming into the season and tickets sales would go up, I can guarantee you of that. (If ticket sales spiked up when the Sox signed malcontent Albert Belle, imagine what would happen if we signed a guy who actually smiles.) Plus, he's would certainly help our WS chances. :smile:

Hangar18
09-24-2004, 12:39 PM
Would you be complaining if Maggs and Thomas had been healthy? I highly doubt it, as I think that team had playoffs written all over it. You can't overcome losing 1/3rd of your payroll mid-season. Why re-hash it over and over and over? Do you just prefer to always be in a perpetual panic and anxiety attack?

NO.......ID be complaining about the horrible state of our bullpen. This has
been by #1 complaint about this season. Losing Ordonez simply EXPOSED
the weakness of our bench, a bench that was depleted/ignored in the offseason....Because Uncle Jerry was too busy Loading bags of Money into armored cars over at 35th & Shields. I only re-hash over and over, because
the SOX keep re-hashing CUtting Payroll, Losing one Player to get another,
Rebuilding, Patience...........then Cutting Payroll, Losing one Player to get another, Rebuilding, Patience. The cycle goes on and on ......for 20 something years. The only thing I can do is Note the Cycles and .....Complain. I certainly dont want to Ignore whats going on. Nor do I want to ACCEPT
this nonsense. Dont get me wrong Folks, Instead of complaining, Id
rather be sitting here wondering how Im gonna get tickets to Tonites SOLD OUT CLINCHING GAME against the Royals and penciling pitching rotations
for the Playoffs.

Losing Ordonez hurt, with him in the lineup, we were playing .600 ball.
But The team was getting by and we couldve still won this thing, Had we addressed the PITCHING. we didnt.

Randar68
09-24-2004, 12:40 PM
That would be perfect! Man, I would be so excited if that happened. And there should be a petty decent market for Konerko this off season. (or Lee, but obviously I would much rather trade Paulie) Boston allegedly is interested, the Yanks will likely need a new 1B (if Giambi becomes a fulltime DH), the Mets, as previously mentioned may be interested, perhaps the Angels, Dodgers...
Well, my preference would definitely be to unload Pauly over Lee. Pauly has nice power, but his doubles are down(IIRC) and he's not nearly as good a "pure hitter" as CLee is, especially when Carlos decides to use the whole field. Carlos also has a 2006 option, while Pauly will be gone after 2005 anyways.

That being said, I doubt too many are interested. Toronto if they lose Delgado? Who knows?

Pitching is still a priority, no doubt. I think the only way they trade both Pauly and Konerko is if they think Brian Anderson can be an everyday OF'er next year at this level. He had a great season, and was doing well in AA until being slowed down by groin/hernia... I don't put it past them.

An OF of Rowand-Beltran-Anderson left-to-right excites the living hell out of me, frankly, and overall is less expensive than 2004's opening day OF. That might be one of the best OF's in baseball, particularly on defense and with the arms...

edit: I'd even be willing to live with Everett-Beltran-Rowand. Again, cheaper than the 2004 version of our opening day OF, meaning the 2006 OF swaps Anderson for Carl... and Rowand in LF...

Randar68
09-24-2004, 12:41 PM
NO.......ID be complaining about the horrible state of our bullpen. This has
been by #1 complaint about this season. Losing Ordonez simply EXPOSED
the weakness of our bench, a bench that was depleted/ignored in the offseason....Because Uncle Jerry was too busy Loading bags of Money into armored cars over at 35th & Shields. I only re-hash over and over, because
the SOX keep re-hashing CUtting Payroll, Losing one Player to get another,
Rebuilding, Patience...........then Cutting Payroll, Losing one Player to get another, Rebuilding, Patience. The cycle goes on and on ......for 20 something years. The only thing I can do is Note the Cycles and Complain.
Losing Ordonez hurt, with him in the lineup, we were playing .600 ball.
The team was getting by and we couldve still won this thing, Had we addressed the PITCHING. we didnt.I just don't think it's reasonable for anyone to expect a team with a limited payroll to have any considerable depth. That's where the $$$ is saved, even more so than in the everyday lineup.... Bullpen and bench are what suffer most...

Hangar18
09-24-2004, 12:49 PM
I just don't think it's reasonable for anyone to expect a team with a limited payroll to have any considerable depth. That's where the $$$ is saved, even more so than in the everyday lineup.... Bullpen and bench...
Exellent point ........... And thats why Uncle Jerry needs to read that sentence
you just wrote. We dont have dept, one fluke injury did us in because of it.
Losing Frank was icing on the losing cake. We have to spend more or we'll always be subject to fluke injuries, bad luck, the weather .....

jabrch
09-24-2004, 12:50 PM
I think some people are just happier if they are bitching about something - regardless of if it makes an ounc of sense.

Would you be complaining if Maggs and Thomas had been healthy? I highly doubt it, as I think that team had playoffs written all over it. You can't overcome losing 1/3rd of your payroll mid-season. Why re-hash it over and over and over? Do you just prefer to always be in a perpetual panic and anxiety attack?

:chickenlittle

jabrch
09-24-2004, 12:54 PM
Its so nice to see how willing Hangar is to spend other people's money.

Same song and dance - day after day.

DrCrawdad
09-24-2004, 01:00 PM
This is an excerpt from the latest issue of Sporting News (http://www.sportingnews.com/) magazine (September 27, 2004 issue)...

I'll believe that the Sox are seriously pursuing Beltran when he has signed a contract with the Sox. Until then it has about as much chance of taking place as did A-Rod signing with the Sox.

gosox41
09-24-2004, 01:04 PM
I'll believe that the Sox are seriously pursuing Beltran when he has signed a contract with the Sox. Until then it has about as much chance of taking place as did A-Rod signing with the Sox.
The Sox need more then just Beltran to win. Getting Beltran would be nice, but I'd rather get a Johnny Damon and then sign a damn good starting pitcher.

I just don't see the Sox spending money on 2 expensive free agents. ANd as good as Beltran is, I'll be damned if I want to see the same garbage that's been trotted out there as a 5th starter the last 4 eyars.


Bob

Hangar18
09-24-2004, 01:11 PM
The Sox need more then just Beltran to win. Getting Beltran would be nice, but I'd rather get a Johnny Damon and then sign a damn good starting pitcher.

I just don't see the Sox spending money on 2 expensive free agents. ANd as good as Beltran is, I'll be damned if I want to see the same garbage that's been trotted out there as a 5th starter the last 4 eyars.


Bob
Imagine if the SOX had signed Kenny Rogers a year ago, as many here had
Begged and Suggested? Sure, money wouldve been spent, but subtract some of those losses in the 5th spot and the SOX are in 1st place .....most
likely. That couldve been the Crow-Bar the pried Jerrys Wallet open and
maybe we acquire a good player etc. Thats all conjecture I know .......
but What If.......This team could Just Stop Constraining Themselves Fiscally?

Dick Allen
09-24-2004, 01:12 PM
I've read that the Yankees are going hard after Beltran. It's a perfect fit, and I think some of the Yankee players (Bernie Williams) we're actually "recruiting" him.

SOXSINCE'70
09-24-2004, 01:19 PM
With Scott Boras as his agent,forget it.Even if Beltran changed agents,the Sox would nickel and dime him to death.I'd rather get a front line starter like Carl Pavano or Pedro Martinez.Oh,who am I crappin'?? Uncle Jerry will never pay for pitching.:angry: :angry:

hold2dibber
09-24-2004, 01:25 PM
As good as Manny is, you can't pay him that much money just to be a DH. Well, unless you're the Yankees.
I don't understand this kind of thinking at all. What do you mean, "just" to be the DH? Do you think he got that big salary because of his defensive prowess? Of course not. He's there because of his stick. His value to the team doesn't go down at all if he's "just" the DH because all of his value is in his hitting ability anyway.

mdep524
09-24-2004, 01:32 PM
Imagine if the SOX had signed Kenny Rogers a year ago, as many here had
Begged and Suggested? Sure, money wouldve been spent, but subtract some of those losses in the 5th spot and the SOX are in 1st place .....most
likely. That couldve been the Crow-Bar the pried Jerrys Wallet open and
maybe we acquire a good player etc. Thats all conjecture I know .......
but What If.......This team could Just Stop Constraining Themselves Fiscally?
Man, Hangar- you and Kenny Rogers. Got a little thing for him? :wink: You go on and on about this guy as if he's the answer to all the Sox' problems. His ERA since the ASB is 5.51. Yes, he's a serviceable 5th starter, no he would not have the Sox in first place.

Randar68
09-24-2004, 01:33 PM
Imagine if the SOX had signed Kenny Rogers a year ago, as many here had
Begged and Suggested? Sure, money wouldve been spent, but subtract some of those losses in the 5th spot and the SOX are in 1st place .....most
likely. That couldve been the Crow-Bar the pried Jerrys Wallet open and
maybe we acquire a good player etc. Thats all conjecture I know .......
but What If.......This team could Just Stop Constraining Themselves Fiscally?
HE DID NOT WANT TO BE HERE! What does it matter? Why must you and Lip bring up the Gambler every time someone complains about the 5th starter spot. That's like complaining they didn't sign Schilling.

mdep524
09-24-2004, 01:36 PM
I've read that the Yankees are going hard after Beltran. It's a perfect fit, and I think some of the Yankee players (Bernie Williams) we're actually "recruiting" him.
I'm sure the Yankees will end up with him if they want him. No question about it. The only thing is if Giambi becomes a fulltime DH, Matsui plays leftfield and Sheffield plays right, there really is only room for ONE of either Beltran or Williams to start. Will this prevent them from signing Beltran? No. But it may make Cashman think twice, especially considering how much attention his pitching staff is going to need. I mean come on, Orlando Hernandez is the best pitcher on the staff right now!

Randar68
09-24-2004, 01:36 PM
I've read that the Yankees are going hard after Beltran. It's a perfect fit, and I think some of the Yankee players (Bernie Williams) we're actually "recruiting" him.
I'm not refuting that, but why would Bernie be recruiting someone to take his position? Giambi is going to be a DH, prolly, and with Matsui/Shef/Williams...

Who knows. Anything the Yankees want, they get. Beltran, at least to me, doesn't seem like the kind of player that enjoys playing in NY, that said, the money's still the most important thing...

Randar68
09-24-2004, 01:37 PM
I'm sure the Yankees will end up with him if they want him. No question about it. The only thing is if Giambi becomes a fulltime DH, Matsui plays leftfield and Sheffield plays right, there really is only room for ONE of either Beltran or Williams to start. Will this prevent them from signing Beltran? No. But it may make Cashman think twice, especially considering how much attention his pitching staff is going to need. I mean come on, Orlando Hernandez is the best pitcher on the staff right now!
Great point, every starter on the market is going to be a NYY target, they need help there a whole heck of a lot more than they need Beltran.

Ol' No. 2
09-24-2004, 01:43 PM
Beltran is OK, but I think $70M is a lot to pay for a middling relief pitcher. Oh, wait! That's FRANCIS Beltran. Kenny!!!!! Wait!!!!!!!!!!

Mickster
09-24-2004, 01:44 PM
Great point, every starter on the market is going to be a NYY target, they need help there a whole heck of a lot more than they need Beltran.
If the Yank's even show any small interest in Beltran, that will make Boston even more eager to make a play for him as retaliation for ARod...... Kind of like 2 little kids in a sandbox... :duel:

Randar68
09-24-2004, 01:46 PM
If the Yank's even show any small interest in Beltran, that will make Boston even more eager to make a play for him as retaliation for ARod...... Kind of like 2 little kids in a sandbox... :duel:
I don't think Epstein would play like that, personally. He probably has a plan already laid out, and he'll stick to it, Yankees be damned. Reacting to NY hasn't gotten Boston anywhere for what, 90 years?

Randar68
09-24-2004, 01:48 PM
Beltran is OK, but I think $70M is a lot to pay for a middling relief pitcher. Oh, wait! That's FRANCIS Beltran. Kenny!!!!! Wait!!!!!!!!!!LOL! Well played.

Mickster
09-24-2004, 01:48 PM
I don't think Epstein would play like that, personally. He probably has a plan already laid out, and he'll stick to it, Yankees be damned. Reacting to NY hasn't gotten Boston anywhere for what, 90 years?
Maybe....maybe not.:dunno: I think Theo got his first real taste of how bad the hatred and "one-upmanship" that the Yanks/Carmines truly have. You have to admit, it did leave a bit of egg on Theo's face when all was said and done.

Randar68
09-24-2004, 01:50 PM
Maybe....maybe not.:dunno: I think Theo got his first real taste of how bad the hatred and "one-upmanship" that the Yanks/Carmines truly have. You have to admit, it did leave a bit of egg on Theo's face when all was said and done.
If anything, I think the lesson to be learned for him is:

When you are after something, don't fight over the minor details to get it done. Boston has the resources, just don't leave the door open with something that high-profile or public (maybe the other lesson, loose lips...)

mdep524
09-24-2004, 01:50 PM
If the Yank's even show any small interest in Beltran, that will make Boston even more eager to make a play for him as retaliation for ARod...... Kind of like 2 little kids in a sandbox... :duel:
I think what it will really come to is how well the Yanks do in the playoffs this year. If they win it all, The Boss might be content, and willing to come back with mostly the same team in '05 (plus a pitcher perhaps). If they make an early exit, especially if they are eliminated by the Red Sox, Steinbrenner will be furious and gobble up Beltran, Pedro and anybody else he can get his hands on in the offseason.

Iwritecode
09-24-2004, 02:03 PM
An OF of Rowand-Beltran-Anderson left-to-right excites the living hell out of me, frankly, and overall is less expensive than 2004's opening day OF. That might be one of the best OF's in baseball, particularly on defense and with the arms...

edit: I'd even be willing to live with Everett-Beltran-Rowand. Again, cheaper than the 2004 version of our opening day OF, meaning the 2006 OF swaps Anderson for Carl... and Rowand in LF...

I always thought you were a big fan of Borchard. You want Anderson over Joe now?

Randar68
09-24-2004, 02:19 PM
I always thought you were a big fan of Borchard. You want Anderson over Joe now?
I've always been a big fan of Borchard's potential. Not saying he can't eventually realize it. I've seen a big improvement in his AB's over the past month, he's hitting a lot more balls hard now. When he first came up, he looked like he was just trying to hit everything to the moon. Then after struggling so badly, it looked like he just was hoping to make contact. He looks a lot more comfortable now and is hitting a lot more balls hard. He's hit quite a few so far right at people. I really like the way he's taking walks though. Can still be beat by the offspeed stuff, but he seems to be laying off it more.

We'll see. Maybe he has a breakout 2005, maybe he doesn't. Frankly, I'm all for signing Beltran and opening with Rowand-Beltran-Borch and if Borch has flopped by the end of May, Anderson should be ready, or you play Carl...

Who knows? We're just speculating...

Ol' No. 2
09-24-2004, 02:30 PM
...or you play Carl...Unfortunately, I get the sinking feeling that's what's going to happen. It would be very out of character for the Sox to have a $4M player sitting on the bench. Whether they trade Lee and put him in LF, or just put him in RF to replace Maggs, either way, I'd say your chances of seeing Dino playing in the OF every day is better than 50-50.

MisterB
09-24-2004, 02:38 PM
I'm not refuting that, but why would Bernie be recruiting someone to take his position? Giambi is going to be a DH, prolly, and with Matsui/Shef/Williams...

Who knows. Anything the Yankees want, they get. Beltran, at least to me, doesn't seem like the kind of player that enjoys playing in NY, that said, the money's still the most important thing...
My bet is Williams moves to 1B if Beltran is acquired. He's 36 and his legs aren't what they once were. And considering that Tony Clark (.230/.304/.475) has the majority of playing time at first, Willams would be an offensive upgrade.

Hangar18
09-24-2004, 04:04 PM
HE DID NOT WANT TO BE HERE! What does it matter? Why must you and Lip bring up the Gambler every time someone complains about the 5th starter spot. That's like complaining they didn't sign Schilling.
As I understand it ......... The SOX kept low-balling him and offering the deferred money thing. THAT being the only reason he wouldnt come here.
again, him as a 5th starter......... who knows what wouldve happened.

Randar68
09-24-2004, 04:06 PM
As I understand it ......... The SOX kept low-balling him and offering the deferred money thing. THAT being the only reason he wouldnt come here.
again, him as a 5th starter......... who knows what wouldve happened.
Deferred money on a 1 million dollar 1-year contract? Who you crappin? Link?

bafiarocks03
09-24-2004, 04:19 PM
That is insane! If they do that...i will be soo mad!! I don't want that guy! AND i do not want to lose maggs! Carlos, or Paul!!:angry:

DVsoxfan
09-24-2004, 04:26 PM
That is insane! If they do that...i will be soo mad!! I don't want that guy! AND i do not want to lose maggs! Carlos, or Paul!!:angry:
Beltran is better than Maggs, Carlos, and Paul...besides, we won't get rid of ALL of them, you'll at least get to keep one of them. Take a chill pill.

santo=dorf
09-24-2004, 04:43 PM
:worship: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=1999&stc=1&thumb=1
Looks good doesn't it?

Jjav829
09-24-2004, 04:45 PM
Are you sure? I hope you're right He was earlier this year........personally, I think Borass is a vermin on pro sports. BTW, some people say Beltran is more hype than substance when his numbers are looked at closely.....I think there's something to that. People here complained about not wanting to give Maggs $14 million a year but jumped at the thought of giving Beltran $14 mil a year even though Maggs has consistently put up better numbers than Beltran. Consider the fact that this is Beltran's first 30 HR year. Maggs 29 HRs last year was the first year he failed to reach 30 HRs since 98. Beltran is currently at a .928 OPS, the best of his career. Maggs had a .926 OPS last year and people complained about the down year he had. That said, Beltran is of course much faster than Maggs (especially now) and a greater threat to steal. He does play a much harder position and he plays it well (regardless of his propensity to be a little lackadaisical at times). The point being, the difference between Maggs and Beltran isn't as great as people make it out to be. Beltran will give you more speed and play a more important position. But Maggs is going to give you more of an extra base threat and a better all around hitter.

I wouldn't jump to give Beltran a big contract. I'd rather see the money spent on a few good players. Give me an upgrade at second, short, catcher, and/or starting and relief pitching instead.

Win1ForMe
09-24-2004, 04:53 PM
Count me as one of the people thinking the Sox would be better off spreading that money around. I thought the problem with this year's team was having too many unproductive players in the lineup (Crede, Harris, Valentin, Catchers, Timo/Borchard). Replacing one of our productive players (Lee or Konerko) with another one (Beltran) doesn't really solve the problem, IMO.

I can live with Uribe at SS and Gload at 1B, if Konerko's traded. The Sox could then spend on guys like Koskie, Todd Walker, etc. I would also see whether or not the Marlins would be interested in trading off Juan Pierre (arbitration eligible). I don't think we have any players to interest them, but perhaps we could find another team using Konerko as the bait.

SoxxoS
09-24-2004, 04:54 PM
Who did Beltran have hitting behind him in K.C.? I can't remember if he led off or hit 2nd...Mike Sweeney would be OK, but he was never 100% healthy.

Maggs has been the cornerstone for the past 4 years. We haven't won crap. It's time to change. We haven't lost b/c of him, either. No doubt. Beltran gives us speed (:o: :o: :o: ) and a very good defensive CF. As Randar stated, Rowand-Beltran-Anderson. Wow. You have 3 guys that can run with cannon's for arms.

Maggs is great and everything, but this team has had Maggs. Add to that "Kneegate" he is just becoming a big question mark. It's time to change. Speed. Defense. Power. Beltran.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2004, 04:55 PM
If Beltran has changed agents (can anyone confirm this?) that puts things in an entirely different light vis a vis with the Sox.

However keep this in mind as well Boras' M.O. was that his clients ALWAYS tested the market. If Beltran has a new agent they may work out a deal to re-sign with Houston before even testing the market. Just something to consider.

Lip

MRKARNO
09-24-2004, 04:57 PM
Consider the fact that this is Beltran's first 30 HR year. Maggs 29 HRs last year was the first year he failed to reach 30 HRs since 98.
You really think that Beltran's not going to be able to repeat those type of HR numbers (35+) playing 81 games at Coors Field East? In fact we might see 45 plus home runs from him. If we trade Paul Konerko, his home run numbers will decline as his 40 homers have been a result of the ballpark this year and Beltran's would go up. I think we'd be doing ourselves a great service by improving the offense to the point where it's clearly one of the best in the AL because afterall, that's how we won in 2000, with offense and a strong bullpen. This time we have the type of pitchers who can actually do something in the playoffs as well. We also would be doing ourselves a service by coupling Frank with a superstar like Beltran for at least two years. I am for Beltran as a Maggs replacement.

santo=dorf
09-24-2004, 05:18 PM
Lip Man 1 asks: Can anyone confirm this?

http://nypost.com/sports/19193.htm

In a move that could radically alter the offseason, Carlos Beltran might change agents from Scott Boras to Alan Nero, according to an official from a team unlikely to bid on the star center fielder
Does anyone know what JR's relationship with Nero is like?

Randar68
09-24-2004, 05:35 PM
I wouldn't jump to give Beltran a big contract. I'd rather see the money spent on a few good players. Give me an upgrade at second, short, catcher, and/or starting and relief pitching instead.People are willing to give Beltran a bigger deal because:

1) He's much younger than Maggs (3 years?)
2) He plays Gold Glove center field, not average RF
3) He is an elite base stealer
4) He's about to go 40/40
5) He hit .300 last year, and while his average is down this year, his OBP is equivalent to the past, in the .380 range, as good or better than Maggs' usual OBP...

Sorry, but if the offense is equal, add in elite CF defense and 40 SB potential, as well as younger in age, I think it's plainly OBVIOUS why people would be more willing to give Beltran 14 million than Maggs.

maurice
09-24-2004, 06:51 PM
After last offseason's leap backwards and the impending loss of Maggs (and likely Konerko), the Sox desperately need to make a Fisk-esque big splash this offseason. That means signing the quality starter and quality reliever KW promised, plus Beltran or Renteria. There's simply no excuse for Chicago to be much less aggressive in the offseason market for quality players than Detroit.

My choice of color reflects the likelihood that JR will come to his senses. :angry:

munchman33
09-24-2004, 08:45 PM
In refernce to your sig ("So go to a game"),I go to anywhere from 27-30 every year.I support this team despite management's stupidity.

How about you?:dunno: :dunno:
Season Ticket Holder

idseer
09-24-2004, 10:44 PM
i'd like beltran if i thought the sox needed him to put us over the hump ..... but that's not what would happen. there is too much disparity now between the good and the bad on this team and that would simply add to it. i didn't want to throw $14 M at magglio and i don't want to throw it at beltran.

this team needs too much to contend next year at the very least .... perhaps longer than that. i'd concentrate on pitching and filling in the cracks elsewhere.
'going for it' failed miserably this year and it would be even worse next season. let's develop better, stop rushing the kids, play better fundamentals, and build around the future of this team ..... rowand, crede, garcia, lee and paul.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2004, 11:22 PM
So as I understand the story Boras is still Beltran's agent.

As long as that remains the same this entire discussion is a moot point.

Lip

SoxxoS
09-24-2004, 11:49 PM
So as I understand the story Boras is still Beltran's agent.

As long as that remains the same this entire discussion is a moot point.

Lip
We are running out of things to talk about, and it's not even the offseason yet.

batmanZoSo
09-25-2004, 12:19 AM
So as I understand the story Boras is still Beltran's agent.

As long as that remains the same this entire discussion is a moot point.

Lip

The Sox are a moot point themselves...

Soxfest
09-25-2004, 12:22 AM
CB will be a yankee

Jerome
09-25-2004, 12:26 AM
Oh man. If we signed Beltran, I think Uncle Jerry would deserve a nice big pat on the back for opening up the wallet. Beltran is the guy. He has all the tools, and I think with his stats even new-school FOBB's like myself would be overjoyed. (Jeremy? Is Beltran an acceptable moneyball player lol?) I think Beltran signing here would be the first move that KW makes that every wsi'er wouldn't object to.

It would be tough to trade Konerko, but we could probably get a good pitcher for him and of course his big salary would go to Beltran money. We would certainly get something decent- 40+ hrs for PK is sure to get something good.

First base would worry me, but a great CF is harder to find than a great 1B.

And of course who to play RF. Other than that, I'm expecting at least the first round of playoffs next year.

batmanZoSo
09-25-2004, 12:41 AM
Oh man. If we signed Beltran, I think Uncle Jerry would deserve a nice big pat on the back for opening up the wallet. Beltran is the guy. He has all the tools, and I think with his stats even new-school FOBB's like myself would be overjoyed. (Jeremy? Is Beltran an acceptable moneyball player lol?) I think Beltran signing here would be the first move that KW makes that every wsi'er wouldn't object to.

It would be tough to trade Konerko, but we could probably get a good pitcher for him and of course his big salary would go to Beltran money. We would certainly get something decent- 40+ hrs for PK is sure to get something good.

First base would worry me, but a great CF is harder to find than a great 1B.

And of course who to play RF. Other than that, I'm expecting at least the first round of playoffs next year.

No one would oppose Beltran in theory because he's great. But we'd be strapped. Couldn't get any pitching then...

balke
09-25-2004, 12:57 AM
Any trade/acquisition made will be scoffed at by a guaranteed 10% on this board. "I could've gotten us Beltran for 4 mil. Why didn't we just trade diaz for him last season?"

StillMissOzzie
09-25-2004, 01:05 AM
After reading all 88 posts in this thread, I have but one thing to add: I'll believe the Sox have Beltran when they introduce him to the rabid throngs of fans at SoxFest 2005.

SMO
:gulp:

A. Cavatica
09-25-2004, 04:15 AM
Beltran is a terrific player, worth $14m/year (if any ballplayer is really "worth" that kind of dough).

And it would not be out of character for the Sox to go after him (if Boras isn't still his agent). The Sox always like to have a couple of marquee players so that they have something to promote. With Maggs gone and the team in a rut, signing Beltran would restore some credibility.

KW also likes to "inquire" about players like Randy Johnson, who have no chance of ever coming to the South Side, just to get some press.

As good as Beltran is, I don't want the Sox to sign him. Let's say JR raises the payroll to $70 million. No one player is worth 20% of a team's payroll; certainly no player on a team that has many holes and no cheap young stars to fill them.

And last I checked, CF is not one of our problems.

idseer
09-25-2004, 10:40 AM
Beltran is a terrific player, worth $14m/year (if any ballplayer is really "worth" that kind of dough).

And it would not be out of character for the Sox to go after him (if Boras isn't still his agent). The Sox always like to have a couple of marquee players so that they have something to promote. With Maggs gone and the team in a rut, signing Beltran would restore some credibility.
i was thinking about this last night and you're exactly right. they seem to always have at least one big marquee player. unfortunately it always means they don't get a good compliment of players around him and so we're never really in it. maybe THIS is their real philosophy! get a name ... play .500 ball ... make a tidy profit ... and don't worry about the post season.

there is always this huge disparity on the team. one great player, 2 real good players, 2 average players, and 19 pieces of crap!

it's worked for jr for 20+ years. why change a good thing? :angry:

Paulwny
09-25-2004, 11:29 AM
So as I understand the story Boras is still Beltran's agent.

As long as that remains the same this entire discussion is a moot point.

Lip
As of Sept. 9th he still was. Unless Beltran changes agents after the season, him coming to the sox will be a very long shot.

balke
09-25-2004, 12:39 PM
As of Sept. 9th he still was. Unless Beltran changes agents after the season, him coming to the sox will be a very long shot.
Any attempt to change agents sounds good for us. We were already the favorites to sign this kid mid-season. I think a lot of our injuries messed this up, or perhaps the asking price. I don't think he's a savior in anyway, but we don't have any speed on this team, and he's got a lot of speed. He'd be a very good replacement for maggs.

If we don't sign someone like this, that means we will be at least one power hitter shy of how we started this season. (w/ either maggs out, or Clee/PK traded).

I like having an offensive powerhouse, we need someone with speed/power. Beltran/Andruw Jones could help our team a bunch.

jabrch
09-25-2004, 01:11 PM
We were already the favorites to sign this kid mid-season.
We were? The favorites to sign Carlos Beltran? Um - News to me...

hose
09-25-2004, 01:51 PM
As far as the Sox signing Beltran I'll believe it only when Carlos puts his John Hancock on the dotted line.

Earlier in the week Konerko was on the pre-game show and he mentioned that he wanted to finish career as a White Sox. He also stated that he would be willing to structure a contract more favorable to the club in order to make this happen.

This has me thinking that Paulie may stay and Carlos Lee will be the one traded.
Either way one of the two will be wearing a different uniform next year.

balke
09-25-2004, 03:36 PM
As far as the Sox signing Beltran I'll believe it only when Carlos puts his John Hancock on the dotted line.

Earlier in the week Konerko was on the pre-game show and he mentioned that he wanted to finish career as a White Sox. He also stated that he would be willing to structure a contract more favorable to the club in order to make this happen.

This has me thinking that Paulie may stay and Carlos Lee will be the one traded.
Either way one of the two will be wearing a different uniform next year.
I also reminded myself accidently last week that Pauly is building a home near Commiskey. That's a big investment for him to give up. I think he likes being in Chicago. I still want him gone, but the home thing makes me think he's staying.

I'd miss Clee. He's been Mr. consistency for us in his career. He broke the sox hit streak record this season, and has had a great year in every category.

SOXSINCE'70
09-25-2004, 04:01 PM
Oh man. If we signed Beltran, I think Uncle Jerry would deserve a nice big pat on the back for opening up the wallet. Beltran is the guy. He has all the tools, and I think with his stats even new-school FOBB's like myself would be overjoyed. (Jeremy? Is Beltran an acceptable moneyball player lol?) I think Beltran signing here would be the first move that KW makes that every wsi'er wouldn't object to.

It would be tough to trade Konerko, but we could probably get a good pitcher for him and of course his big salary would go to Beltran money. We would certainly get something decent- 40+ hrs for PK is sure to get something good.

First base would worry me, but a great CF is harder to find than a great 1B.

And of course who to play RF. Other than that, I'm expecting at least the first round of playoffs next year.
This brings up a question I once had the misfortune of hearing Harry Caray ask (then) sCrUBs manager Tom Trebelhorn.I believe this was the first question asked at Trebelhorn's press conference once he was tabbed sCrUBS manager (1994,IIRC):

"WHAT ABOUT THE PITCHING"????:angry: :angry: :angry:

Frater Perdurabo
09-25-2004, 04:17 PM
Hangar and Randar: Y'all are two of my favorite WSI High Priests. I like Hangar because I know he's a hot-blooded, silver-and-black-bleeding-heart Sox fan. I like Randar because he's cool and analytical and understands the intricacies of the game and keeps us up-to-date on the farm system. I like you both because you both (like me) want the Sox to win so bad it hurts.

Hangar and Randar: Stop sniping at each other. The "only" reason you both are so irritable right now is because this season has been such a colossal disappointment. We're all on the "same side." Can't we all just get along? :cool:


Putting on my deeppink glasses now, let's assume for a moment that the Sox could sign Beltran :bandance: but had to move Konerko or Lee :(: , and Maggs departed. :(:

I have a hunch that Crede and Borchard will surprise us next year. OK, I'll pass the reefer now... Anyway, I think they will be stronger for going through such a horrible 2004 and each improve to hit .265 with 25-30 homers. If my hunch is correct, a lineup of Rowand (LF), Beltran (CF), Frank (DH), Lee/Konerko (1B), Borchard (RF), Crede (3B), Uribe (SS), Burke/Davis (C) and Harris (2B) could produce at a clip equal to that of the 2004 Sox when Maggs and Frank were producing. This offense also would have lefties Gload and Everett available to pinch-hit. While the offense still would be predominantly right-handed, the speed would be better. Beltran in CF would make the Sox above average defensively, particularly up the middle, which would help Sox pitchers. This also should allow the Sox to shore up the back end of the rotation by adding a quality veteran starter, which would move Garland to #5. Print your 2005 playoff tickets now! :bandance:

nodiggity59
09-25-2004, 04:31 PM
Hangar and Randar: Y'all are two of my favorite WSI High Priests. I like Hangar because I know he's a hot-blooded, silver-and-black-bleeding-heart Sox fan. I like Randar because he's cool and analytical and understands the intricacies of the game and keeps us up-to-date on the farm system. I like you both because you both (like me) want the Sox to win so bad it hurts.

Hangar and Randar: Stop sniping at each other. The "only" reason you both are so irritable right now is because this season has been such a colossal disappointment. We're all on the "same side." Can't we all just get along? :cool:


Putting on my deeppink glasses now, let's assume for a moment that the Sox could sign Beltran :bandance: but had to move Konerko or Lee :(: , and Maggs departed. :(:

I have a hunch that Crede and Borchard will surprise us next year. OK, I'll pass the reefer now... Anyway, I think they will be stronger for going through such a horrible 2004 and each improve to hit .265 with 25-30 homers. If my hunch is correct, a lineup of Rowand (LF), Beltran (CF), Frank (DH), Lee/Konerko (1B), Borchard (RF), Crede (3B), Uribe (SS), Burke/Davis (C) and Harris (2B) could produce at a clip equal to that of the 2004 Sox when Maggs and Frank were producing. This offense also would have lefties Gload and Everett available to pinch-hit. While the offense still would be predominantly right-handed, the speed would be better. Beltran in CF would make the Sox above average defensively, particularly up the middle, which would help Sox pitchers. This also should allow the Sox to shore up the back end of the rotation by adding a quality veteran starter, which would move Garland to #5. Print your 2005 playoff tickets now! :bandance:
I agree that Crede can only improve upon this year's performance. Borchard, on the other hand, is hopeless IMO but Everret is fine.

When comparing our 2005 to 2004 squads, the following would shake down-->

-Beltran, Rowand, Everret> Maggs, Lee, Rowand (before he rocked)
-Uribe> Valentin
-Crede> Crede
The only hole would be Davis<Olivo. But we all know Miggy wasn't THAT great.

Our pitching is clearly better and if we acquire a starter and bullpen help I don't see how we can be worse than this year.

Essentially if we sign Beltran, a 3rd-4th SP, and a back end reliever I think we'll be in good shape. To get the last 2, it would probably cost us Lee but again, our outfield would still be upgraded.

Frater Perdurabo
09-25-2004, 04:34 PM
:tomatoaward

MRKARNO
09-25-2004, 04:39 PM
I'm convinced based off this thread that if we traded for Barry Bonds that people would be complaining about his attitude, how much he costs and about what we gave up.

nodiggity59
09-25-2004, 04:44 PM
I'm convinced based off this thread that if we traded for Barry Bonds that people would be complaining about his attitude, how much he costs and about what we gave up.
Well said. I agree.

jabrch
09-25-2004, 05:37 PM
I'm convinced based off this thread that if we traded for Barry Bonds that people would be complaining about his attitude, how much he costs and about what we gave up.
I totally agree. Seems a large number of people bitch just because that is how they deal with things when we lose. Not that there is anything wrong with that - just that it gets old.

balke
09-25-2004, 05:39 PM
I'm convinced based off this thread that if we traded for Barry Bonds that people would be complaining about his attitude, how much he costs and about what we gave up.
Just so long as we didn't give up rauch or Reed for him. :cool:

Jjav829
09-25-2004, 06:11 PM
You really think that Beltran's not going to be able to repeat those type of HR numbers (35+) playing 81 games at Coors Field East? In fact we might see 45 plus home runs from him. If we trade Paul Konerko, his home run numbers will decline as his 40 homers have been a result of the ballpark this year and Beltran's would go up. I think we'd be doing ourselves a great service by improving the offense to the point where it's clearly one of the best in the AL because afterall, that's how we won in 2000, with offense and a strong bullpen. This time we have the type of pitchers who can actually do something in the playoffs as well. We also would be doing ourselves a service by coupling Frank with a superstar like Beltran for at least two years. I am for Beltran as a Maggs replacement.
Yeah he might hit 45 homers. But what exactly has coupling Frank with a superstar like Maggs done for us? Not much. I'd rather spread that $14 million out to 2 good players rather than 1 great one.

SoxxoS
09-25-2004, 06:13 PM
Yeah he might hit 45 homers. But what exactly has coupling Frank with a superstar like Maggs done for us? Not much. I'd rather spread that $14 million out to 2 good players rather than 1 great one.
Frank and Maggs don't give us the defense and the speed of a Beltran. Speed, being the main thing.

Jjav829
09-25-2004, 06:25 PM
People are willing to give Beltran a bigger deal because:

1) He's much younger than Maggs (3 years?)
2) He plays Gold Glove center field, not average RF
3) He is an elite base stealer
4) He's about to go 40/40
5) He hit .300 last year, and while his average is down this year, his OBP is equivalent to the past, in the .380 range, as good or better than Maggs' usual OBP...

Sorry, but if the offense is equal, add in elite CF defense and 40 SB potential, as well as younger in age, I think it's plainly OBVIOUS why people would be more willing to give Beltran 14 million than Maggs.Yeah he's 3 years younger (assuming 27 is his real age). I think the question on whether the offense is equal is debatable. I guess it depends on his stolen base ability. As I said in the previous post, you are going to get a little more speed from Beltran that you aren't going to get from Maggs. They both tend to be a little impatient at times though Maggs is probably the better all around hitter. Anyways my point wasn't to debate the better player but rather to back up the assertion made by some that Beltran is a little more style than substance. I was using Maggs simply to point out that a guy who has put up consistently better numbers wasn't likely to get the money like Beltran would because Beltran is going to be paid largely on his style and ability to continue improving. That said I think Beltran is a terrific player. If the Sox signed him he'd probably immediately be my favorite player on the team. But I still think that as this team is currently constituted, I'd prefer to use the money we'd pay have to pay Beltran to go upgrade at several positions. If this team had a proven, reliable catcher, second baseman, shortstop, third baseman, #3 and #4 pitcher and bullpen, I'd be all in favor of chasing Beltran hard. Unfortunately we don't have those positions filled. This is basically the same argument that has gone on for months with Maggs (before he was injured of course). Is it worth it to pay a guy $14 million when you have multiple other needs? And just as I wasn't in favor of paying Maggs $14 million a year, I'm not in favor of paying Beltran $14 million either.

Jjav829
09-25-2004, 06:29 PM
Frank and Maggs don't give us the defense and the speed of a Beltran. Speed, being the main thing.
And what does Beltran's speed have to do with the #4,5,6,7,8, and 9 hitters (assuming Beltran as a #2 hitter at this point)? Sure maybe if you bat him 3rd in front of Frank he'll steal some bases and ultimately result in 10-15 more runs based on stealing 2nd ahead of a Frank base hit. But that still doesn't solve our need for a leadoff hitter, and pretty much half a lineup after Frank and either PK or Lee.

SoxxoS
09-25-2004, 07:35 PM
And what does Beltran's speed have to do with the #4,5,6,7,8, and 9 hitters (assuming Beltran as a #2 hitter at this point)? Sure maybe if you bat him 3rd in front of Frank he'll steal some bases and ultimately result in 10-15 more runs based on stealing 2nd ahead of a Frank base hit. But that still doesn't solve our need for a leadoff hitter, and pretty much half a lineup after Frank and either PK or Lee.I am not going to argue that we have other holes...it's a no-doubter. However, we will never know if losing Maggs and Thomas was the reason why we are watching the playoffs on TV rather than at the Cell.

That being said, Beltran is a great player. He is better all-around than Maggs. It's not only speed, it's defense. A Lee/Beltran/Rowand outfield is solid. An Anderson/Beltran/Rowand outfield is a top 3 in the majors (defensively...possibly offensively if Anderson is everything is can be).

SEALgep
09-25-2004, 10:41 PM
That being said, Beltran is a great player. He is better all-around than Maggs. It's not only speed, it's defense. A Lee/Beltran/Rowand outfield is solid. An Anderson/Beltran/Rowand outfield is a top 3 in the majors (defensively...possibly offensively if Anderson is everything is can be).I agree. I really hope it happens. Another overlooked benefit to getting Beltran is that we really wouldn't have any use for Borchard. They don't want him as a backup, and it's really unlikely he'd beat out Rowand for the job IMO. We could probably trade him to a low budget team willing to take a chance on him, and get a little bit of talent for him, whether it be a prospect or two, or possibly some solid pen help for next year. We don't know, but I'd love to be in a position to find out.

Jerome
09-26-2004, 12:04 AM
This brings up a question I once had the misfortune of hearing Harry Caray ask (then) sCrUBs manager Tom Trebelhorn.I believe this was the first question asked at Trebelhorn's press conference once he was tabbed sCrUBS manager (1994,IIRC):

"WHAT ABOUT THE PITCHING"????:angry: :angry: :angry:


I think we'd get a pretty good major or minor league pitcher for Konerko. 40 homers is worth something.

Gload would be decent a first, Rowand would play right, CLee left. Beltran in CF, thats a pretty damn good OF no matter who plays 1B.

nodiggity59
09-26-2004, 12:13 AM
I'm still holding out hope Texas will take Everret. Didn't Showalter say something like "I'll take Carl on my team anyday" sometime this year? If we dumped he and Paulie that would clear over $12mil!!! So long as KW acquired a leadoff type to replace Willie in one of those deals, we would be in good shape.

This assumes, of course, we sign Beltran and a #1-2 type starter.

GiveMeSox
09-26-2004, 10:39 PM
This is an excerpt from the latest issue of Sporting News (http://www.sportingnews.com/) magazine (September 27, 2004 issue)...
This is exactly the problem with this team. They think along the lines of everything always haas to be even. If Beltran costs 14 mil the we have to move Lee to negate the addition in salary and create the 7 mil more than Lee he would cost. That is not going to get you anywhere, that is not how you win championships. Getting rid of high priced talent for even more high priced talent doesn't accomplish anything. You have to fill non prodcution with production. Add a 2 starters and 2 relivers instead of trading Lee to sign Beltran, how on earth could that possibly help. You have to usually add payroll, or at least players to win and fill holes not the other way around. If this ownership wants to be great and bigtime contender they will have to dump the break even philosphy, its self handicapping in terms of signing players in the offseason. Where there is no risk there is no REWARD.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2004, 11:30 PM
Give me Sox:

Agree with you completely. With this organization it's always about the 'bottom line.' Never about the number of pennants.

Lip

Etownsox13
09-27-2004, 11:12 AM
actually, getting Beltran is a lot less far-fetched than everyone thinks. Ive got an inside source that tells me that beltran really wants to play in chicago, either side of town, but he wants to go back to the AL. Not that he will take a huge discount to play here, but if the sox are close to someone elses offer, he will probably sign with us.

Randar68
09-27-2004, 11:46 AM
This is exactly the problem with this team. They think along the lines of everything always haas to be even. If Beltran costs 14 mil the we have to move Lee to negate the addition in salary and create the 7 mil more than Lee he would cost. That is not going to get you anywhere, that is not how you win championships. Getting rid of high priced talent for even more high priced talent doesn't accomplish anything. You have to fill non prodcution with production. Add a 2 starters and 2 relivers instead of trading Lee to sign Beltran, how on earth could that possibly help. You have to usually add payroll, or at least players to win and fill holes not the other way around. If this ownership wants to be great and bigtime contender they will have to dump the break even philosphy, its self handicapping in terms of signing players in the offseason. Where there is no risk there is no REWARD.
Guys guys guys. Not even talking about deferred money or other crap like that, there are ways contracts can be structured to help fit-in with a pre-existing payroll outlook. Escalating Contracts, options, incentives (not likely in this case per se), etc. So while we all think there is some fixed dollar amount out there, like the 14 that is currently being thrown around, his contract could be structured in a way to alleviate some of the first or second year burden...

It's easier to plan when you know you have certain "sure-things" already in place...

maurice
09-27-2004, 04:16 PM
Is Beltran an acceptable moneyball player lol?No, because speed and defense are overrated. Carlos Beltran certainly is no Frank Catalanato.

Seriously, if Beltran were on the A's, BB probably would prohibit him from stealing . . . one of his more ridiculous fetishes.

Curseofthegoat
09-30-2004, 09:36 PM
Francis Beltran problaly would be the biggest FA aqusition we come out of the siging period with UNLESS JR decides to actually open up his wallet and spend some money:selljerry

kitekrazy
10-01-2004, 12:21 AM
actually, getting Beltran is a lot less far-fetched than everyone thinks. Ive got an inside source that tells me that beltran really wants to play in chicago, either side of town, but he wants to go back to the AL. Not that he will take a huge discount to play here, but if the sox are close to someone elses offer, he will probably sign with us.
It's nice to dream but it aint gonna happen. Does anyone think Carlos Bletran is the difference between mediocrity and winning a world series?

Mohoney
10-01-2004, 12:42 AM
Can still be beat by the offspeed stuff, but he seems to be laying off it more.
Even as bad as he was when he first got called up, it still looked like he wasn't swinging at horrible pitches in the dirt or under his chin. He seemed to have a decent enough concept of the vertical limits of the strike zone.

I think he was just flat-out outguessing himself a lot of times, and his pitch recognition looked way off. But pitch recognition CAN be improved upon with experience. As he gets more looks at some of the AL Central starters that gave him trouble, and as he gets to know the umpires' strike zones, I think he will improve. I definitely don't think he will digress like Crede has.

I would like to see the guy get HALF the chance that Jon Garland has gotten before I judge him a complete failure.

Give Borchard (and Crede too, I guess) a full season next year to show what they can do. If they still suck, then I agree wholeheartedly that we need to go another direction. But I think it's unfair to give chance after chance to Garland and just jettison Borchard after so little time.

alohafri
10-01-2004, 09:36 PM
depends who his agent is. I know it WAS Boras, but I've heard rumors that he was looking to change agents.
Unless this happens, it is a pipe dream!

fuzzy_patters
10-01-2004, 11:47 PM
Can someone explain to me how moving Lee or Konerko to aquire Carlos Beltran would make the Sox as good or better next year than they were the first part of this year? I realize that Beltran is better than Lee or Konerko; however, the Sox are also probably losing Magglio next year, also. This means that Beltran is in effect replacing both Magglio plus either Konerko or Lee. That is not an upgrade, unless the Sox plan on using Magglio's money to make another move.

balke
10-02-2004, 03:52 AM
Can someone explain to me how moving Lee or Konerko to aquire Carlos Beltran would make the Sox as good or better next year than they were the first part of this year? I realize that Beltran is better than Lee or Konerko; however, the Sox are also probably losing Magglio next year, also. This means that Beltran is in effect replacing both Magglio plus either Konerko or Lee. That is not an upgrade, unless the Sox plan on using Magglio's money to make another move.
IF you moved Konerko, you'd have a great bat with Amazing speed on the bases and in the field in Beltran. If you moved Lee, you'd have a gap in LF with poor D out there that Beltran would have to make up. And you'd have Lower BA and OBP on the team.

Flight #24
10-02-2004, 07:49 AM
Can someone explain to me how moving Lee or Konerko to aquire Carlos Beltran would make the Sox as good or better next year than they were the first part of this year? I realize that Beltran is better than Lee or Konerko; however, the Sox are also probably losing Magglio next year, also. This means that Beltran is in effect replacing both Magglio plus either Konerko or Lee. That is not an upgrade, unless the Sox plan on using Magglio's money to make another move.
I think the question is what you get back for Paulie, becuase that's the real swap. Maggs+Konerko for Beltran+a decent pitcher isn't bad, especially when you factor in getting Frank back.

Plus as you say, we'd be as good as we were the first part of the year....which was pretty darn good (contending for top AL record, IIRC)

Santo=Dorf's Dad
10-04-2004, 08:43 PM
If the White Sox management is convinced that they will spend money(BIG IF), then why not sign Nomar and really shoot a cannon over the Cubune's bow. Just imagine if JR had the stones to sign Maddox years ago how much egg that organization would have had on its face. I would love to have Beltran, but I don't see the two tribesmen on top coming up with the money. The Sunshine Boys would rather have a positive bottom line than a pennant. I love what Jose Valentin has done for this team, but he doesn't fit so SEE YA!

DVsoxfan
10-04-2004, 09:04 PM
If the White Sox management is convinced that they will spend money(BIG IF), then why not sign Nomar and really shoot a cannon over the Cubune's bow. Just imagine if JR had the stones to sign Maddox years ago how much egg that organization would have had on its face. I would love to have Beltran, but I don't see the two tribesmen on top coming up with the money. The Sunshine Boys would rather have a positive bottom line than a pennant. I love what Jose Valentin has done for this team, but he doesn't fit so SEE YA!
Nomar is NOT worth the insane amount of money he is asking for. Plus he's injury prone. Beltran is younger, plays a more important position, has better production than Nomar, and has not been seriously injured in his career. From what I've heard, Nomar is asking for around about the same amount of money Beltran is, and Beltran is the better investment. Anyone hear if Beltran ever changed agents yet??

OEO Magglio
10-04-2004, 09:06 PM
If the White Sox management is convinced that they will spend money(BIG IF), then why not sign Nomar and really shoot a cannon over the Cubune's bow. Just imagine if JR had the stones to sign Maddox years ago how much egg that organization would have had on its face. I would love to have Beltran, but I don't see the two tribesmen on top coming up with the money. The Sunshine Boys would rather have a positive bottom line than a pennant. I love what Jose Valentin has done for this team, but he doesn't fit so SEE YA!
No to Nomar. I could careless what it would do to the cubune he's a very overrated player and he's not worth the kind of money he'll be asking for. I'd love to get beltran however I don't think it's really smart to go after him either because if we're lucky we'll sign one big free agent and it should be a starting pitcher, hopefully Carl Pavano. :D:

CWSGuy406
10-04-2004, 09:41 PM
Hmm, getting back to Boston (sorry for switching topics).

Anyone know (fenway?) what they're thinking of doing with Bill Mueller? Is he going to play second base or what? Because - Youkilis will be at third, Cabrera at short, Men-kay-witch/Ortiz/Millar at first. Will he play second, or is he going to be out of this team?

I'd really like to get Mueller, if at all possible. Or Bellhorn, or Damon. I'd take all three of those guys on this team, especially Damon.

Beltran is very intriguing, but would you rather have Damon + 7 million or Beltran? That's a tough question, honestly, because with that seven million, you could probably get yourself two solid bullpen arms.

This offseason will definitely be an interesting one, to say the least.

gosox41
10-05-2004, 09:07 AM
Hmm, getting back to Boston (sorry for switching topics).

Anyone know (fenway?) what they're thinking of doing with Bill Mueller? Is he going to play second base or what? Because - Youkilis will be at third, Cabrera at short, Men-kay-witch/Ortiz/Millar at first. Will he play second, or is he going to be out of this team?

I'd really like to get Mueller, if at all possible. Or Bellhorn, or Damon. I'd take all three of those guys on this team, especially Damon.

Beltran is very intriguing, but would you rather have Damon + 7 million or Beltran? That's a tough question, honestly, because with that seven million, you could probably get yourself two solid bullpen arms.

This offseason will definitely be an interesting one, to say the least.
As long as KW is GM, every off season is interesting. Doesn't mean it's going to be good, though.


Bob

EMel9281
10-10-2004, 01:00 PM
I think the idea of getting Mueller might be a bit out there because the Sox seem intent on letting Crede have another year, a la Aaron Rowand. They seem to think that the same thing can happen to Crede as Rowand, play a couple bad to mediocre years, and then all of a sudden, boom! You lead the team in average and hit a career high in homers. Personally, I would love anyone on third base, unless his first name is Joe in either English or Spanish (Jose).

What about entertaining the idea of Koskie in a Sox uniform next year? I don't believe Minnesota will resign him as they have younger talent to replace him. He is a left-handed bat with some power. He can steal a base. And, he has an above average glove at third. I know he has had his share of injures, but I think he would be a good option.

I think, for the most part, us Sox fans really should not get our hopes up for Beltran playing for us next year. If Bernie Williams is not with the Yankmes next year, you can bet that Darth George will sign him for an excruciating amount of money for the Evil Empire. I know we need help in the OF next year, but I really believe that Beltran will not be here next year.

Plus, if any luck, he signs with the Yankmes, has a career-ending injury, and then they're out millions upon millions of dollars. :D:

Flight #24
10-11-2004, 03:20 PM
This may be a bit "pipedreamy", but bear with me for a second.

1) Sox are rumored ot have a strong interest in Beltran - and that would also fit KW's & OG's stated desire to improve speed, OBP, & D.

2) Sox have Konerko, Everett, Shingo in the last year of their contracts, Carlos in the 2d to last year, and Frank in either the last or 2d to last year before the team buyout option kicks in. Thus in the next 1-2 years, they're likely going to have the opportunity or the requirement to rebuild the team.

I can therefore see a scenario in which KW convinces JR to pony up a big money deal for Beltran with the following argument. Either

a)Beltran replaces Maggs and we have a very strong lineup to go with improved pitching (under the theory that Garcia+Buehrle+Contreras+Garland is a stronger 1-4 than we had in the first half last year). That lineup takes the team to the playoffs or at the very leats sparks enough interest in the team to increase attendance enough to warrant the payroll bump (ComCast revenues can also factor into this part of it).

or

b) For whatever reason, the team underperforms and attendance doesn't materialize. In that scenario, The team would have the option to let Koney & Shingo & Everett walk (or trade them at midseason), trade Lee ( I would think he'd be pretty valuable at his salary in a walk year), and possibly release or restructure Thomas' deal, thereby freeing up anywhere from $20-30mil, more than offsetting the Beltran $$$. In this scenario, the Sox then rebuild around a core of Beltran, Rowand, Garcia, Buehrle, Uribe by turning to Anderson, Sweeney, Fields (the 3B), BMac, Gio, etc. Payroll can be kept reasonable and the "core" is young enough that in say 3 years, the team could be a decent mix of young players and vets.

Yeah, it should probably be in deeppink, but it's not that farfetched, simply because any long-term financial commitment to Beltran is offset by the flexibility to cut payroll in other areas that the team has during or after the '05 season.

It does likely mean that we wouldn't get a top flight SP, but grabbing a cheap veteran ala Glandon Rusch wouldn't be impossible.

Flight #24
10-11-2004, 03:21 PM
Plus, if any luck, he signs with the Yankmes, has a career-ending injury, and then they're out millions upon millions of dollars. :D:
Yeah, I'm sure that would make a difference to King George!

jabrch
10-11-2004, 03:22 PM
I can therefore see a scenario in which KW convinces JR to pony up a big money deal for Beltran with the following argument.
You should know better Flight - KW is a moron and JR is cheap.

Flight #24
10-11-2004, 03:27 PM
You should know better Flight - KW is a moron and JR is cheap.C'mon - You think this type of move would prevent people from saying that? :D:

jabrch
10-11-2004, 04:11 PM
C'mon - You think this type of move would prevent people from saying that? :D:
no - in all honesty, I don't think there is anything you can do to stop some people from saying it. Albert Belle didn't - they came up with excuses. Getting Freddy Garcia didnt'. Unloading Loaiza for Contrerras didn't. Miles for Uribe didn't.

Some people here will not stop with the anti-JR or the anti-KW stuff anywhere short of a World Series. And then there are some who I think would even still only be waiting a few weeks, gnawing at the teeth to start bashing them again.

pinwheels3530
10-11-2004, 04:16 PM
no - in all honesty, I don't think there is anything you can do to stop some people from saying it. Albert Belle didn't - they came up with excuses. Getting Freddy Garcia didnt'. Unloading Loaiza for Contrerras didn't. Miles for Uribe didn't.

Some people here will not stop with the anti-JR or the anti-KW stuff anywhere short of a World Series. And then there are some who I think would even still only be waiting a few weeks, gnawing at the teeth to start bashing them again.

I know I won't stop with the anti-JR stuff until he brings us a World Series.......23 years and counting!!:angry: :angry:

jabrch
10-11-2004, 05:32 PM
I know I won't stop with the anti-JR stuff until he brings us a World Series.......23 years and counting!!:angry: :angry:
and that's everyone's individual perrogative - I have no problems with it. I myself, enjoy the game for what it is - and don't worry so much about the personalities who own the team and who are in the front office. I'd much rather see us win, but I can enjoy the Sox without winning a World Series.

Lip Man 1
10-11-2004, 06:15 PM
Actually Pinwheels it's 24 years and counting under this current ownership. They took over in January 1981.

:smile:

Lip

PavanoBeltran'05
10-11-2004, 06:19 PM
Damn...I was two years old. I better not be 85 before we win. That would really chap my ass. Something's gotta give. You can't go 160 years without a World Series. We're due at some point.

gosox41
10-12-2004, 10:08 AM
I know I won't stop with the anti-JR stuff until he brings us a World Series.......23 years and counting!!:angry: :angry:
ANd I won't stop being 100% anti-KW until he shows he can not lose the division to the same team 3 years in a row when that team has a lower payroll while playing in the weakest division in the major leagues and having the highest payroll in that weak division.

Imagine how many less wins the Sox would have if they played their games in the AL East or West. This team probably wouldn't have a .500 record for hte last 3 seasons.


Bob

Lip Man 1
10-12-2004, 12:47 PM
Bob:

Aren't we basically arguing the same thing? i.e. the major shortcomings of current ownership?

You keep preaching about the faults of Williams and they are valid points, but in the BIG picture, WHO HIRED Williams?

Who has NEVER hired an experienced G.M. in the 24 years of stewardship?

You seem to act like the Williams situation and the Reinsdorf situation, (our two points of view) are completely different animals.

They aren't!

Reinsdorf won't spend the money on a major market payroll and Reinsdorf has historically shown he won't spend the money nor give unlimited authority to get a qualified successful G.M.

They are two sides of the SAME coin!

So what are we fighting about?

:?:

Lip

gosox41
10-12-2004, 01:08 PM
Bob:

Aren't we basically arguing the same thing? i.e. the major shortcomings of current ownership?

You keep preaching about the faults of Williams and they are valid points, but in the BIG picture, WHO HIRED Williams?

Who has NEVER hired an experienced G.M. in the 24 years of stewardship?

You seem to act like the Williams situation and the Reinsdorf situation, (our two points of view) are completely different animals.

They aren't!

Reinsdorf won't spend the money on a major market payroll and Reinsdorf has historically shown he won't spend the money nor give unlimited authority to get a qualified successful G.M.

They are two sides of the SAME coin!

So what are we fighting about?

:?:

Lip
I thought we were arguing over payroll issues. But you're right. Ulitmately, we're on the same side. I'd love to see the Sox get an owner who would hire experineced baseball people and maybe even take on some debt once in awhile.

But that being said, I don't think JR is raking in a ton of money in profits year after year if he is making any money at all. And I won't fault a guy for not digging himself into a financial hole. I do believe he is reinvesting his profits back into the team. The minute I feel he is cheating me by pocketing huge profits at the expense of winning or I hear otherwise from my source, I will cancel my season tickets.

I will fault him for hiring incompetent boobs like KW. And it has more to do with KW being incompetent then inexperienced.

Money will always make it a lot easier to build a winning team. But KW has proven that even that doesn't hold true. He has been given more money then the Twins the last 4 years and has 3 second places finishes to them to show for it.

So, you know me. You know I am anti-KW and will voice that opinion repeatedly. And I probably should blame JR more for that. JR has some loyalty issue where he promised Kenny's parents that he'd watch over him or some garbage like that. But I don't think he is as cheap or as evil as many here do.


Bob

jabrch
10-12-2004, 01:11 PM
Bob:

Aren't we basically arguing the same thing? i.e. the major shortcomings of current ownership?

You keep preaching about the faults of Williams and they are valid points, but in the BIG picture, WHO HIRED Williams?

Who has NEVER hired an experienced G.M. in the 24 years of stewardship?

You seem to act like the Williams situation and the Reinsdorf situation, (our two points of view) are completely different animals.

They aren't!

Reinsdorf won't spend the money on a major market payroll and Reinsdorf has historically shown he won't spend the money nor give unlimited authority to get a qualified successful G.M.

They are two sides of the SAME coin!

So what are we fighting about?

:?:

Lip

Save words... KW is dumb. JR is cheap. PHG is trying to economize server space. Help him out a bit - will ya?

Randar68
10-12-2004, 01:12 PM
ANd I won't stop being 100% anti-KW until he shows he can not lose the division to the same team 3 years in a row when that team has a lower payroll while playing in the weakest division in the major leagues and having the highest payroll in that weak division.:whocares

We need a "Broken Record" tag.

gosox41
10-12-2004, 01:14 PM
:whocares

We need a "Broken Record" tag.
Or a GM that has a clue.


Bob

Randar68
10-12-2004, 01:16 PM
Or a GM that has a clue.
The next time you type a post worth reading will be the first.

Brian26
10-12-2004, 01:29 PM
Who has NEVER hired an experienced G.M. in the 24 years of stewardship?

Lip

You're splitting hairs on this one. Hemond stayed around until late '85, so he was there for the first 4 seasons. But you're discounting Himes and Schueler? Himes had rebuilt the California Angels organization from top to bottom, and he came in with very high credentials. Schueler came in from the A's organization as their GM's right-hand man, a team who had made the World Series 3 years in a row. Other than KW, I don't think JR's hired any other "bargain basement" GM's.

Randar68
10-12-2004, 01:42 PM
Other than KW, I don't think JR's hired any other "bargain basement" GM's.
The "Hawk Experiment?"

Brian26
10-12-2004, 02:08 PM
The "Hawk Experiment?"

Oh yeah, I forgot. I guess I've blocked that from my mind. Now I'm going to wake up tonight in a cold sweat imagining Wayne Tolleson, Dave Schmidt, Neil Allen, Ron Hassey and Jose DeLeon chasing me down the street with flaming churros.

santo=dorf
10-12-2004, 02:12 PM
To all of those who keep saying "The Yanks are going to sign him," what makes you think he just wants to go where the money is? I remember someone posting here saying they had a source that said Beltran wants to play in Chicago. And where does Beltran fit in NY's plans?

1B. Giambi 15.5 million(?) if he's healthy enough otherwise he'll DH. The Yanks have a $3 million option on Travis Lee.
2B. Miguel Cairo (?) Who will the Yanks sign to play there next year?
3B. A-Rod-20 million
SS. Jeter-20 million
C. Posada-13 million
LF. Matsui- 8 million (has a no-trade clause)
CF. Bernie Williams-12 million and Lofton-3.1 million
RF. Sheffield-13 million

You're looking at 107.6 million for a team with no second baseman and a $3.1 million bench player. I haven't even looked at Yanks' pitching staff where they have more holes than swiss cheese.

jabrch
10-12-2004, 02:14 PM
You're looking at 107.6 million for a team with no second baseman and a $3.1 million bench player. I haven't even looked at Yanks' pitching staff where they have more holes than swiss cheese.
You are assuming there is a limit to what Steinbrenner will spend to be good. He'll trade Lofton away for nothing. He'll sign Walker/Polanco/Kent/Boone/Grudzelaniek, etc. Don't worry about the Yanks - they'll be ok.

Randar68
10-12-2004, 02:25 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot. I guess I've blocked that from my mind. Now I'm going to wake up tonight in a cold sweat imagining Wayne Tolleson, Dave Schmidt, Neil Allen, Ron Hassey and Jose DeLeon chasing me down the street with flaming churros.
:cower:

:rolling:*****!

Jerry_Manuel
10-12-2004, 02:29 PM
To all of those who keep saying "The Yanks are going to sign him," what makes you think he just wants to go where the money is? I remember someone posting here saying they had a source that said Beltran wants to play in Chicago. And where does Beltran fit in NY's plans?

1B. Giambi 15.5 million(?) if he's healthy enough otherwise he'll DH. The Yanks have a $3 million option on Travis Lee.
2B. Miguel Cairo (?) Who will the Yanks sign to play there next year?
3B. A-Rod-20 million
SS. Jeter-20 million
C. Posada-13 million
LF. Matsui- 8 million (has a no-trade clause)
CF. Bernie Williams-12 million and Lofton-3.1 million
RF. Sheffield-13 million

You're looking at 107.6 million for a team with no second baseman and a $3.1 million bench player. I haven't even looked at Yanks' pitching staff where they have more holes than swiss cheese.
Beltran would be their CF and Williams would move to DH. They've seen just about enough of Lofton, they'll pay him to go away. No doubt they'll be big players for Beltran, but they'll be going hard after pitching.

Randar68
10-12-2004, 02:35 PM
Beltran would be their CF and Williams would move to DH. They've seen just about enough of Lofton, they'll pay him to go away. No doubt they'll be big players for Beltran, but they'll be going hard after pitching.
What do you do with Giambi then? Neither Giambi or Williams is likely to last a season if they have to play more than half the year in the field...

Do you make Williams a 1B? This late in his career?

I just am of the opinion that the Yanks are going to be looking to add 2-3 starters and at least 1 if not 2 bullpen arms. Heck, isn't John Lieber's 2-year deal up? He never signed an extension did he (Note: I'd be more than happy if we signed Lieber to a reasonable deal to be our 4)

santo=dorf
10-12-2004, 02:39 PM
What do you do with Giambi then? Neither Giambi or Williams is likely to last a season if they have to play more than half the year in the field...

Do you make Williams a 1B? This late in his career?

I just am of the opinion that the Yanks are going to be looking to add 2-3 starters and at least 1 if not 2 bullpen arms. Heck, isn't John Lieber's 2-year deal up? He never signed an extension did he (Note: I'd be more than happy if we signed Lieber to a reasonable deal to be our 4)
Lieber has a team option for $8 million next year.

Randar68
10-12-2004, 02:41 PM
Lieber has a team option for $8 million next year.
That's pretty high. Do you think the Yanks will excercise it? If I were them I'd be looking to negotiate a 3-year extension in the 5-6 million on-average range instead of the one-year 8 million option... hmmm...

Ol' No. 2
10-12-2004, 02:42 PM
Beltran would be their CF and Williams would move to DH. They've seen just about enough of Lofton, they'll pay him to go away. No doubt they'll be big players for Beltran, but they'll be going hard after pitching.If a mackeral swims by a barracuda, the barracuda goes after him, even if he's just eaten a dozen mackerals. He can't help it - it's in his nature. The same is true of Steinbrenner. If a top free agent is available, he has to try to get him. It's in his nature. Where he's going to put him is of secondary concern.

santo=dorf
10-12-2004, 02:44 PM
That's pretty high. Do you think the Yanks will excercise it? If I were them I'd be looking to negotiate a 3-year extension in the 5-6 million on-average range instead of the one-year 8 million option... hmmm...
Maybe if he gets rocked in the postseason, the Yanks won't consider bringing him back. :dunno:

From the reports I;m reading from New York, George is making pitching his top priority this offseason. I hope he gets into a bidding war with Boston for Pedro.

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 02:49 PM
You're splitting hairs on this one. Hemond stayed around until late '85, so he was there for the first 4 seasons. But you're discounting Himes and Schueler? Himes had rebuilt the California Angels organization from top to bottom, and he came in with very high credentials. Schueler came in from the A's organization as their GM's right-hand man, a team who had made the World Series 3 years in a row. Other than KW, I don't think JR's hired any other "bargain basement" GM's.
Not to mention that of the 8 playoff teams, I believe....8 have GM's who had no direct GM experience at the time of hiring.

Man are those teams cheap!

gosox41
10-12-2004, 02:51 PM
The next time you type a post worth reading will be the first.
Thanks, I'll keep it in mind. And of course, being that I don't need to stoop to your level of cheap shots on posters here, I'll end it now. I wouldn't want you to go any lower with name calling or sticking tongues out at each other.:D:



Bob

shagar69
10-12-2004, 02:52 PM
I remember someone posting here saying they had a source that said Beltran wants to play in Chicago.
:rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: Yeah, why WOULDNT beltran wanna come to the southside. he'll get like 12 mil per, while the yanks offer him 18, he'll have the TREMONDOUS support of 22,000 strong, he'll get to play for a team that cares ONLY about winning, and he'll play for a GREAT owner in JR!

shagar69
10-12-2004, 02:54 PM
The next time you type a post worth reading will be the first.
yeah, bob, dont you know? all your posts have to be of Randar quality to be considered good. after all, he did discover mark buehrle.

santo=dorf
10-12-2004, 03:14 PM
:rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: Yeah, why WOULDNT beltran wanna come to the southside. he'll get like 12 mil per, while the yanks offer him 18, he'll have the TREMONDOUS support of 22,000 strong, he'll get to play for a team that cares ONLY about winning, and he'll play for a GREAT owner in JR!Because he loves the City?

Because maybe he wants to play on a team that has a lot hispanic influence?

He seemed to enjoy playing in front of small crowds in KC all those years. I don't remember him bashing KC when he was traded, in fact he thanked the fans. Carlos Beltran has also posted at the KC forums and is known to visit baseball websites. And with the positive attitude he sees from us here at WSI, why wouldn't he want to play with us?

I can wish...

Iguana775
10-12-2004, 03:16 PM
Because he loves the City?

Because maybe he wants to play on a team that has a lot hispanic influence?

He seemed to enjoy playing in front of small crowds in KC all those years. I don't remember him bashing KC when he was traded, in fact he thanked the fans. Carlos Beltran has also posted at the KC forums and is known to visit baseball websites. And with the positive attitude he sees from us here at WSI, why wouldn't he want to play with us?

I can wish...
I have also heard that he doesnt like the spot light and is a fairly shy guy. you never know. he may want to play for Ozzie. i'm not going to give my hopes up but if he did end up on the south side, i would be really happy.

Ol' No. 2
10-12-2004, 03:18 PM
Carlos Beltran has also posted at the KC forums and is known to visit baseball websites. And with the positive attitude he sees from us here at WSI, why wouldn't he want to play with us?Great. So now it's OUR fault he'll sign elsewhere.:(:

shagar69
10-12-2004, 03:19 PM
Because he loves the City?

Because maybe he wants to play on a team that has a lot hispanic influence?

He seemed to enjoy playing in front of small crowds in KC all those years. I don't remember him bashing KC when he was traded, in fact he thanked the fans. Carlos Beltran has also posted at the KC forums and is known to visit baseball websites. And with the positive attitude he sees from us here at WSI, why wouldn't he want to play with us?

I can wish...
no way in hell, UNLESS, JR ponies up the money. but if he offers like 13, 14 mil, no way IN HELL Beltran takes 4 or 5 mil less, just to play for a hispanic manager. if he wants to play in chicago, he has a much better chance of winding up on the northside. and IMO, i wouldnt spend that much money on beltran anyway. id rather get a pavano or radke, and some bullpen guys. let everett/borchard platoon RF. or trade PK for an OF (pierre?)

santo=dorf
10-12-2004, 03:19 PM
Great. So now it's OUR fault he'll sign elsewhere.:(:
:reinsy
"And don't you forget it!!"

DirtySouthsider
10-12-2004, 05:26 PM
This may seem kinda crazy but what about trading for Pierre....and Soriano?

I have heard the Rangers are looking to deal him. But of course I don't know what the Sox could offer them since they are pitching hungry. But Pierre and Soriano would add alot of speed to the top of the order.

If it would be possible to deal PK for Pierre.......and Garland & prospects for Soriano...........that would improve this ball club.


Well I put about 2 minutes of thought into this so don't completely bash me if I'm way off base.

Ol' No. 2
10-12-2004, 05:44 PM
This may seem kinda crazy but what about trading for Pierre....and Soriano?Nooooooooooo Sorianoooooooooooooo!

Unless the Sox have a need for a defensive liability at 2B and a whiff machine at the top of the order. Willie Harris' OBP is 20 pts higher than Soriano. You still can't steal first base.

Jjav829
10-12-2004, 06:04 PM
I don't remember him bashing KC when he was traded, in fact he thanked the fans. Carlos Beltran has also posted at the KC forums and is known to visit baseball websites. And with the positive attitude he sees from us here at WSI, why wouldn't he want to play with us?
Really? Where did he post? And what did he say? That's the first I've ever heard of Beltran doing that.

When the Red Sox introduced Curt Schilling at their press conference, they brought up Sons of Sam Horn. JWH, Theo, and Curt talked about how the people at SoSH convinced Curt to come to Boston and JWH thanked the people at SoSH. I could just imagine KW and JR holding a press conference the day that Beltran signs elsewhere to blame WSI for Beltran not coming to the Sox.

:reinsy
"We had the contract all together. Carlos told us he was happy to be coming to Chicago to play for Ozzie, and that he thought the contract was a very fair one. Then he went to his hotel and punched up whitesoxinteractive.com. It was all downhill from there. He began browsing the site and the next thing you know he's calling me up saying he changed his mind and will be signing with the Red Sox. So don't blame me for yet another offseason with no impact Free Agent signings. Blame those people at whitesoxinteractive.com! It's all your fault!"

:KW
"I'd also like to announce while we are here that since we failed to land Carlos Beltran, we decided to sign Ben Grieve to what we think is a very good deal."

Damn, why don't White Sox players post here? We shoulda traded for Curt Schilling. He'd love us. :smile: Come on. Buehrle, Rowand, Carlos, Shingo, some Sox player has to be reading this. Give us a "Hello" or something. :cool:

Lip Man 1
10-12-2004, 06:08 PM
Brian:

'Splitting hairs,' I think is the wrong word...perhaps I should have defined my terms better. My definition of an experienced G.M. is someone who held that position at the major league level and had at least some winning seasons, preferably winning playoff experience as well.

Hemond was here when Reinsdorf / Einhorn took over. They never hired him, although they did fire him.

Himes and Scheuler were never the top men at any major league organization. they did well in their roles but being the G.M. in my opinion, is different from only having to look after one aspect of an organization.

Perhaps that will clear things up.

Lip

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 06:28 PM
I have heard the Rangers are looking to deal him. But of course I don't know what the Sox could offer them since they are pitching hungry. But Pierre and Soriano would add alot of speed to the top of the order.


So would Tim Montgomery, but I don't think we want him either. Especialyl when you factor in the $$$ Sori's likely to command via arbitration.

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 06:32 PM
Brian:

'Splitting hairs,' I think is the wrong word...perhaps I should have defined my terms better. My definition of an experienced G.M. is someone who held that position at the major league level and had at least some winning seasons, preferably winning playoff experience as well.

Hemond was here when Reinsdorf / Einhorn took over. They never hired him, although they did fire him.

Himes and Scheuler were never the top men at any major league organization. they did well in their roles but being the G.M. in my opinion, is different from only having to look after one aspect of an organization.

Perhaps that will clear things up.

Lip
Again - do you have any examples of successful GMs who have changed teams? All the playoff teams this year, and many of the "close but no cigar" teams - Oakland, Cubs, Giants had "rookie" GMs.

Could it be that the hiring of KW WASN'T about money, but more about his ability? Could it be that it's hard to tell the real quality of a GM until you see his prospects start making their way through the system to the big club?

Nah.

santo=dorf
10-12-2004, 06:43 PM
Really? Where did he post? And what did he say? That's the first I've ever heard of Beltran doing that.
http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ml-royals&msg=8373.1&maxT=14

Here's a thread started by Mike Sweeney
http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ml-royals&msg=8769.1&maxT=12

SoxxoS
10-12-2004, 06:52 PM
You guys didn't know Lip was Jerry Reinsdorf?

nitetrain8601
10-12-2004, 06:58 PM
Beltran needs to sign here. Just so we could get those riled up about anything that has to do with Reinsdorf could have a panick attack and die. Then the real fans could stay and this website would be cleared from people bitching at such dumb things like green jerseys to carlos beltran being a bad idea. :angry:

santo=dorf
10-12-2004, 07:21 PM
You guys didn't know Lip was Jerry Reinsdorf?Last time I heard, Schueler has been using "Wealz" as his nickname.

MisterB
10-12-2004, 07:21 PM
My definition of an experienced G.M. is someone who held that position at the major league level and had at least some winning seasons, preferably winning playoff experience as well.
So you wouldn't have wanted 'inexperienced' guys such as Brian Cashman, Theo Epstein, Gerry Hunsicker, Paul DePodesta, Bill Stoneman or Terry Ryan? Ok...

Lip Man 1
10-12-2004, 08:48 PM
Mister B:

Reading must be a lost art with you.

Let's see... all of the G.M.'s you mentioned are all G.M.'s OF BIG LEAGUE CLUBS therefore they meet part of my criteria. If they wanted to come to the Sox I'd fall over backwards for any of them except the two stat geeks in Boston and L.A. I'd have to think about them first.

I mean Epstein was the guy who said that Bill James proved you don't need need a closer and it blew up in his face... which is why he went out and got Foulke.

OK? Are you clear now? Just wondering...

Lip

MisterB
10-12-2004, 09:48 PM
Mister B:

Reading must be a lost art with you.

Let's see... all of the G.M.'s you mentioned are all G.M.'s OF BIG LEAGUE CLUBS therefore they meet part of my criteria. If they wanted to come to the Sox I'd fall over backwards for any of them except the two stat geeks in Boston and L.A. I'd have to think about them first.

I mean Epstein was the guy who said that Bill James proved you don't need need a closer and it blew up in his face... which is why he went out and got Foulke.

OK? Are you clear now? Just wondering...

LipThe point is all of them were hired without previous big league GM experience, and have built playoff-caliber teams. And had every team followed your criteria, none of those guys would have gotten a chance in the first place.

BTW, I read just fine. Thanks for the condescension.

Flight #24
10-12-2004, 09:59 PM
Mister B:

Reading must be a lost art with you.

Let's see... all of the G.M.'s you mentioned are all G.M.'s OF BIG LEAGUE CLUBS therefore they meet part of my criteria. If they wanted to come to the Sox I'd fall over backwards for any of them except the two stat geeks in Boston and L.A. I'd have to think about them first.

I mean Epstein was the guy who said that Bill James proved you don't need need a closer and it blew up in his face... which is why he went out and got Foulke.

OK? Are you clear now? Just wondering...

Lip
I believe the point is that when they were initially hired, none of them would have qualified for your organization due to lack of direct GM experience, yet they've all done exceptionally well. I guess that's just luck for their cheap owners, huh?

gosox41
10-13-2004, 08:47 AM
This may seem kinda crazy but what about trading for Pierre....and Soriano?

I have heard the Rangers are looking to deal him. But of course I don't know what the Sox could offer them since they are pitching hungry. But Pierre and Soriano would add alot of speed to the top of the order.

If it would be possible to deal PK for Pierre.......and Garland & prospects for Soriano...........that would improve this ball club.


Well I put about 2 minutes of thought into this so don't completely bash me if I'm way off base.

No to Soriano. He is so overrated and now overpaid.



Bob

gosox41
10-13-2004, 08:49 AM
Could it be that it's hard to tell the real quality of a GM until you see his prospects start making their way through the system to the big club?


When's that going go happen? I can't wait.


Bob

Flight #24
10-13-2004, 08:52 AM
When's that going go happen? I can't wait.


Bob
You saw one - Jeremy Reed (traded for high caliber pitching), and within another year or 2, you should see more. 4-5 years is not exactly unreasonable.

gosox41
10-13-2004, 08:56 AM
Mister B:

Reading must be a lost art with you.

Let's see... all of the G.M.'s you mentioned are all G.M.'s OF BIG LEAGUE CLUBS therefore they meet part of my criteria. If they wanted to come to the Sox I'd fall over backwards for any of them except the two stat geeks in Boston and L.A. I'd have to think about them first.

I mean Epstein was the guy who said that Bill James proved you don't need need a closer and it blew up in his face... which is why he went out and got Foulke.

OK? Are you clear now? Just wondering...

Lip
I Love these arguments that are nothing but miscommunicatioAfter seeing this go on for pages (and numerous threads) I'll try to clarify.

Lip says the Sox are too cheap to hire an experineced GM. Other people are bringing up the point that other owners of teams have hired inexperienced GM's and that the Sox are hardly the only team to do that. Teams like the Cubs, Red Sox, Yankees and Oakland all have first time, inexperienced GM's who at some point have made their share of mistakes.

But they are all gaining experince just like Kenny Williams is. Unfortunately, those guys are brighter then KW.

So what the Sox do is no different then what other teams have done thus making the premise that JR is cheap and the only owner to hire rookie GM's a moot point.


Bob

gosox41
10-13-2004, 09:02 AM
You saw one - Jeremy Reed (traded for high caliber pitching), and within another year or 2, you should see more. 4-5 years is not exactly unreasonable.
I hope so. I thought people weren't supposed to bring up Reed since he's no longer with the organization.

And while the Sox needed to trade for high caliber pitching, if KW had drafted and developed one average starting pitcher to be a 5th starter, there's a good chance Reed would still be here right now.

So maybe I'll rephrase. I can't wait until a KW player makes a positive imapct on the White Sox.


Bob

jabrch
10-13-2004, 09:47 AM
But they are all gaining experince just like Kenny Williams is. Unfortunately, those guys are brighter then KW.

Bob

Oh - KW is dumb. Here's a new spin on an old arguement...

MrKinsella
10-13-2004, 10:02 AM
So after reading this entire thing, waiting for the bill simons article to come out on page 2, I really feel the need to respond, sorry for making this longer.

For starters Carlos Beltran is one of my favorite players and I hope that the sox sign him, if they are able to some how fill out their bullpen and aquire a fifth starter. I would hope they do this by getting rid of Jose Valentin, and perhaps, if they must trading Paul Konerko who after a great year may revert back to the luap okroenok alter ego that struggled through the 2003 season. I like the idea of this konerko and mags for Beltran and another starter/bullpen/pitching that helps the sox win a world series. Although people have sugested that such a deal is a mere swap that will end in the same results, (the back door replacing the front door arguement), they are forgetting that the idea is that talented young players improve, (Rowand this year, please crede, or Uribe, or Harris next year).

As for going out and getting Pavano I love the guy but aces are rarely bought, but more often just become. Santana and Mulder are the best examples I can give of this. I think both Garcia and Buehrle were solid twos this last year with the potential to become aces any time now. Talent must be purchased and home grown.

As far as the Lips comments you have a great name but theo is the man, I would take him over any GM in baseball, look at the red sox sucessful transformation, and the players he has added. Sure this off season will be a test with so many top BoSox at the end of their contracts but he has no reason to screw it up.

to quote my fellow Sox fan and ASU student, "It's time to change. Speed. Defense. Power. Beltran." Soxxos.

Flight #24
10-13-2004, 10:13 AM
I hope so. I thought people weren't supposed to bring up Reed since he's no longer with the organization.

And while the Sox needed to trade for high caliber pitching, if KW had drafted and developed one average starting pitcher to be a 5th starter, there's a good chance Reed would still be here right now.

So maybe I'll rephrase. I can't wait until a KW player makes a positive imapct on the White Sox.


Bob
That is a legitimate complaint, and one that believe it or not, I share. I do think that there have been some injury issues to guys like Honel, but especially with pitching, things tend to take longer in terms of development. BMac, Gio, Honel all seem like they'll be solid contributors, but until they actually do it, it's hard to argue that point too strongly.

This is one area where Beane has obviously done a better job, although he's been the beneficiary of high draft picks and some luck with regard to injuries that KW has not had.

Flight #24
10-13-2004, 10:16 AM
I would hope they do this by getting rid of Jose Valentin, and perhaps, if they must trading Paul Konerko who after a great year may revert back to the luap okroenok alter ego that struggled through the 2003 season. And people complain that the Sox are too cheap to effectively tap foreign talent. This Luap Okroenok guy sounds like a real keeper!!! I just hope he doesn't retain Scott Boross as his agent!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist, even though I'm the typo king).

MrKinsella
10-13-2004, 10:25 AM
after reading 188 posts I only got that spelling one letter off, not to bad except it ruined my nickname. Oh well.

gosox41
10-13-2004, 11:07 AM
That is a legitimate complaint, and one that believe it or not, I share. I do think that there have been some injury issues to guys like Honel, but especially with pitching, things tend to take longer in terms of development. BMac, Gio, Honel all seem like they'll be solid contributors, but until they actually do it, it's hard to argue that point too strongly.

This is one area where Beane has obviously done a better job, although he's been the beneficiary of high draft picks and some luck with regard to injuries that KW has not had.
In terms of injuries, is it possible that othe organizations are doing things differently to prevent them? Maybe it's throwing more, pitch counts for minor leaugers, running more, fixing mechanics. Whatever it is, there's a point where bad luck becomes a trend and things need to be re-examined or done differently.

Beane may have had some more luck on his side, but he also tends to draft college pitchers. Wasn't their a stat earlier this year that HS pitchers are more likely to get injured. Or was it something that HS pitchers that throw over 90+ MPH now are more likely to lose that velocity as they enter their early 20's.

I've been ripped before for suggesting the Sox not draft pitching in the first 5 rounds of the draft. And maybe it is extreme. But it seems like the Sox spend a lot of money just signing guys like Honel, Stumm, West, etc to see them get hurt. And that's not even including the cost of keeping them around and trying to develop them and stuff like that. It seems to me that there is a lot of money wasted in this area.


Bob

Flight #24
10-13-2004, 11:26 AM
In terms of injuries, is it possible that othe organizations are doing things differently to prevent them? Maybe it's throwing more, pitch counts for minor leaugers, running more, fixing mechanics. Whatever it is, there's a point where bad luck becomes a trend and things need to be re-examined or done differently.

Beane may have had some more luck on his side, but he also tends to draft college pitchers. Wasn't their a stat earlier this year that HS pitchers are more likely to get injured. Or was it something that HS pitchers that throw over 90+ MPH now are more likely to lose that velocity as they enter their early 20's.

I've been ripped before for suggesting the Sox not draft pitching in the first 5 rounds of the draft. And maybe it is extreme. But it seems like the Sox spend a lot of money just signing guys like Honel, Stumm, West, etc to see them get hurt. And that's not even including the cost of keeping them around and trying to develop them and stuff like that. It seems to me that there is a lot of money wasted in this area.


Bob
Without doing an analysis of Sox drafts, my impression is that the Sox look at both college and HS pitchers equally. While HS pitchers obviously have higher volatility, I think someone posted an analysis that showed that they often have higher upside.

As for the Sox injury problems, without knowing what the same rates are for other teams, it's hard to tell if we have a problem or if its just par for the course. I do know that in the past 4 years or so, we've had 2 pitchers come up and perform as solid or better MLB sstarters (Garland & Buehrle), and I believe someone looked at that as well and it was decent compared to all of baseball. Comparing to the A's and their 3 in 2-3 years is IMO a tough comparison since that's likely the best stretch in all of baseball, and IMO a bit of luck factored into that in terms of injuries and speed of development (not to mention the high picks).

Lip Man 1
10-13-2004, 02:03 PM
Just for the sake of discussion here are some G.M. who were hired by teams with previous experience as a G.M. at the major league level.

John Schuerholz
Omar Minaya
Pat Gillick
John Hart
Dave Dombrowski
Dan O'Dowd

That's just off the top of my head...so it does happen.

Lip

gosox41
10-13-2004, 02:28 PM
Just for the sake of discussion here are some G.M. who were hired by teams with previous experience as a G.M. at the major league level.

John Schuerholz
Omar Minaya
Pat Gillick
John Hart
Dave Dombrowski
Dan O'Dowd

That's just off the top of my head...so it does happen.

Lip
Never said it didn't. We just said that JR isn't the only owner who hires rookie GM's and teams like the Yankees do it.


Bob

gosox41
10-13-2004, 02:31 PM
Without doing an analysis of Sox drafts, my impression is that the Sox look at both college and HS pitchers equally. While HS pitchers obviously have higher volatility, I think someone posted an analysis that showed that they often have higher upside.

As for the Sox injury problems, without knowing what the same rates are for other teams, it's hard to tell if we have a problem or if its just par for the course. I do know that in the past 4 years or so, we've had 2 pitchers come up and perform as solid or better MLB sstarters (Garland & Buehrle), and I believe someone looked at that as well and it was decent compared to all of baseball. Comparing to the A's and their 3 in 2-3 years is IMO a tough comparison since that's likely the best stretch in all of baseball, and IMO a bit of luck factored into that in terms of injuries and speed of development (not to mention the high picks).
It's hard to count Garland since he was drafted by the Cubs. As for Buehrle, he was the least hyped prospect. If anything, the 38th round pick deveoloping into a good starting pitcher is luck.

But I do see what you're saying.

Which brings me back to the draft issue. I remember the study about HS players having more upside potential. And I think it was Randar who mentioned that the Sox took a reliever with their first round pick in '02 to use solely as trade bait to think of the present. First, if KW is going to use that logic why didn't he continue using it in the other drafts? Second, if KW is thinking if winning now or ASAP, wouldn't it make sense to focus more on college pitchers then HS? Of course that's if you believe that KW actually intended to use that first round pick as trade bait. Something in KW's inconsistent philosophy don't jive.


Bob

Randar68
10-13-2004, 04:41 PM
It's hard to count Garland since he was drafted by the Cubs. As for Buehrle, he was the least hyped prospect. If anything, the 38th round pick deveoloping into a good starting pitcher is luck.
Garland on spent half a season in the Cubs organization. Call it whatever you want... Buehrle was highly thought of from the moment he started pitching in the lower reaches of the Sox organization. It wasn't like he hit AA and suddenly materialized into a good prospect...

Which brings me back to the draft issue. I remember the study about HS players having more upside potential. And I think it was Randar who mentioned that the Sox took a reliever with their first round pick in '02 to use solely as trade bait to think of the present. First, if KW is going to use that logic why didn't he continue using it in the other drafts?
I never said that was a smart move by KW, and perhaps he doesn't view it as a smart on in retrospect either. However, given the state of the team and a good window to win and a team assembled with a large number of veterans, I'm certain KW felt a lot of pressure to make the playoffs that next year... That situation and the resources at his disposal change over time...

KW changes and adapts, and he's wishy-washy without a plan.
KW is steadfast, and he's a bullheaded bastard.

There's no placating you, Bob, so I'm not sure why you WASTE so much of your time and effort on judging each and every situation KW has been involved with given the limited public information available...

Brian26
10-13-2004, 09:54 PM
So what the Sox do is no different then what other teams have done thus making the premise that JR is cheap and the only owner to hire rookie GM's a moot point.


Bob
THANK YOU! There, Lip!

gosox41
10-14-2004, 08:43 AM
Garland on spent half a season in the Cubs organization. Call it whatever you want... Buehrle was highly thought of from the moment he started pitching in the lower reaches of the Sox organization. It wasn't like he hit AA and suddenly materialized into a good prospect...


I never said that was a smart move by KW, and perhaps he doesn't view it as a smart on in retrospect either. However, given the state of the team and a good window to win and a team assembled with a large number of veterans, I'm certain KW felt a lot of pressure to make the playoffs that next year... That situation and the resources at his disposal change over time...

KW changes and adapts, and he's wishy-washy without a plan.
KW is steadfast, and he's a bullheaded bastard.

There's no placating you, Bob, so I'm not sure why you WASTE so much of your time and effort on judging each and every situation KW has been involved with given the limited public information available...
There is nothing you can do to placate me, unless you're KW or have private knowledge of some of the moves he made and wish to share his logic with me.

But KW can placate me by doing one thing: winning. Get to the playoffs. I'll worry about the World Series later. I just want to see KW, a GM with the highest payroll in the weakest division in baseball the last 4 seasons get to the playoffs under him. I'll stop being down on him when he stops proving himself to be a lousy GM (or gets fired.) Until that happens every move he makes will be put under the microscope by me and others here. It's what the website is for and the fact that KW has a high profile job with passionate fans and has failed to do the job is going to draw a lot of questions/comments from fans.

So if KW wins I'll be quieter about him. Until then he (and any other GM, player, owner, etc.) is fair game.



Bob

Randar68
10-14-2004, 10:54 AM
But KW can placate me by doing one thing: winning. Get to the playoffs. I'll worry about the World Series later.
Yes. So bitching all offseason and flooding the boards with repeated complaints and criticisms WITHOUT solutions accomplishes what?

Oh yeah, it beats us all into submission... I forgot...

:whatever:

Lip Man 1
10-14-2004, 01:05 PM
Brian says: "THANK YOU! There, Lip!"

Lip asks: "Other teams then WIN with their inexperienced G.M.'s... why is that Brian? Maybe because the problems go higher up in the chain of command?"

There

Lip

Brian26
10-14-2004, 01:22 PM
Brian says: "THANK YOU! There, Lip!"

Lip asks: "Other teams then WIN with their inexperienced G.M.'s... why is that Brian? Maybe because the problems go higher up in the chain of command?"

There

Lip

And maybe they go lower down the chain.

I'm not going to blame Reinsdorf on Jerry Manual's screw ups with handling the pitching staff last year. I can't blame JR for our offense going into a deep-freeze in the 2000 playoffs. I can't blame JR for the Big Frank and David Wells injuries in 2001. I can't blame him for Dybzinski's running error in '83 or Black Jack tipping his pitches in '93.

gosox41
10-14-2004, 01:52 PM
Yes. So bitching all offseason and flooding the boards with repeated complaints and criticisms WITHOUT solutions accomplishes what?

Oh yeah, it beats us all into submission... I forgot...

:whatever:
It hasn't beaten you into submission...yet.

I just enjoy watching the continued support of the FOK's as they came up with more and more reasons to think he's a good GM and excuses as to why he hasn't won anything yet.

Maybe in 2005 he'll get it right, afterall isn't the fifth time the charm? I hope he proves me wrong in 2005. I'll enjoy going to all the playoff games while getting lit up on this board. It's more then worth it to me.

You want a solution: Fire KW. There you go. Bet you've seen that from me before. It is a solution to the problem of 'KW sucks'. Simple enough.



Bob

santo=dorf
10-14-2004, 02:01 PM
It hasn't beaten you into submission...yet.

I just enjoy watching the continued support of the FOK's as they came up with more and more reasons to think he's a good GM and excuses as to why he hasn't won anything yet.

Maybe in 2005 he'll get it right, afterall isn't the fifth time the charm? I hope he proves me wrong in 2005. I'll enjoy going to all the playoff games while getting lit up on this board. It's more then worth it to me.

You want a solution: Fire KW. There you go. Bet you've seen that from me before. It is a solution to the problem of 'KW sucks'. Simple enough.



BobWas is KW's fault the Sox didn't win last year? He's only been on the job for four years. Should all of the other teams who haven't won a title in years fire their GM's? What did you think of Schueler from 1995-1999? Was it ok for him to do a horrible job just because he already won a division?:?:

I willing to bet anything if a Sox team put together by KW performed in the playoffs like the team in 2000, you'd be calling for his head.
What's your real agenda against KW?

gosox41
10-14-2004, 02:17 PM
Was is KW's fault the Sox didn't win last year? He's only been on the job for four years. Should all of the other teams who haven't won a title in years fire their GM's? What did you think of Schueler from 1995-1999? Was it ok for him to do a horrible job just because he already won a division?:?:

I willing to bet anything if a Sox team put together by KW performed in the playoffs like the team in 2000, you'd be calling for his head.
What's your real agenda against KW?

I don't know or care about what other teams do with their GM's. But I never had a problems with Schueler until he started spending more time on the golf course and less doing his job. In the early '90's I appreciated his aggressiveness as well as his ability to play poker well and not get bluffed in many of his trades.

Obviously, no GM has a perfect record and Schu overall was an average GM at best. It still puts him ahead of KW. Schu came in after 1990 and inherited a 94 win team. He did a decent job of filling needs getting guys like Tim Raines, George Bell, and Tim Belcher who were at the time good moves to make that he didn't give up a lot for (and no one knew Sosa was going to be as good or as big as he was. Everyone knew he had potential to be a star but no one expected 60+ HR seasons).

And I have no personal agenda against KW. I just don't think he's a good GM. I don't think he's the right GM to lead this organization to a championship. I questioned his moves after the Ritchie trade and the almost-Erstad trade (that the Angels backed out of not the Sox). He lost me completely after trading Durham for essentially nothing and covering most of his salary and trading Foulke for Koch. The lack of production from the minor league system isn't helping my confidence in him.

If you go back and read my posts when the PK signing and Koch moves were made you'll see I was against them.

Keep in mind I am a season ticket holder and I don't go to 60+ games a year to root against the Sox or boo JR or see Detroit come to town 10 times a year. I go there because I love the team and want to see them do well. By getting season tickets, I obviously have every intention of ordering all the post season tickets I can should the team get there. I want this team to do well. I don't think KW will be the guy to do it and hope I am wrong.

Why do I keep bringing it up? Because some of his moves bug me. Especially in October when we get to spend let another offseason watching the Yankmees and Red Sox play.

Just a question for you: How much longer do you give this guy to build a playoff team?


Bob

Randar68
10-14-2004, 04:36 PM
I'll enjoy going to all the playoff games while getting lit up on this board. It's more then worth it to me.
So, you've officially announced your troll-hood.

Welcome to my ignore list.

:dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll:

santo=dorf
10-14-2004, 06:08 PM
Just a question for you: How much longer do you give this guy to build a playoff team?
Two more years. By that time the players KW drafted should be ready to perform at the major league level.

Lip Man 1
10-14-2004, 08:25 PM
Just wondering...wasn't Kenny in charge of the Sox scouting/ drafting before he was named G.M.?

If that's true then he's technically had longer then four years to make an impact with his picks. So far the majority of them haven't come close to panning out.

Lip

Lip Man 1
10-14-2004, 08:26 PM
Brian says: "And maybe they go lower down the chain."

Just wondering...who has the final authority on the hiring of field managers? Who hasn't hired an experienced field manager since Jeff Torborg in the late 80's?

Lip

Flight #24
10-14-2004, 09:15 PM
Brian says: "THANK YOU! There, Lip!"

Lip asks: "Other teams then WIN with their inexperienced G.M.'s... why is that Brian? Maybe because the problems go higher up in the chain of command?"

There

Lip
The point was not that the Sox have been successful with their GM strategy. It was that the answer to any & every problem is not "JR is cheap". He wasn't necessarily taking the cheap route when he hired KW, any more than Steinbrenner was with Cashman, A's were with Beane, etc.

And for what it's worth, at the time, KW was considered a strong up and coming GM candidate. So it wasn't exactly like JR said "Who's the cheapest guy I can find", he had a very strong candidate in house that he promoted - which is usually what happens in baseball.

jabrch
10-14-2004, 10:13 PM
The point was not that the Sox have been successful with their GM strategy. It was that the answer to any & every problem is not "JR is cheap". He wasn't necessarily taking the cheap route when he hired KW, any more than Steinbrenner was with Cashman, A's were with Beane, etc.

And for what it's worth, at the time, KW was considered a strong up and coming GM candidate. So it wasn't exactly like JR said "Who's the cheapest guy I can find", he had a very strong candidate in house that he promoted - which is usually what happens in baseball.
Stop with that logic Flight....It won't get you anywhere.

gosox41
10-15-2004, 09:45 AM
So, you've officially announced your troll-hood.

Welcome to my ignore list.

:dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll:
Missed the whole point, but that's OK. I wouldn't expect him to get it.


Bob

gosox41
10-15-2004, 09:47 AM
Just wondering...wasn't Kenny in charge of the Sox scouting/ drafting before he was named G.M.?

If that's true then he's technically had longer then four years to make an impact with his picks. So far the majority of them haven't come close to panning out.

Lip
Lip,

You and I agree on this one.


Bob

mweflen
10-15-2004, 11:52 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-041014nlcsbrite,1,2505545.story?coll=cs-home-headlines


"Beltran Shows Interest in Cubs"

Al Capone
10-15-2004, 01:09 PM
Did anyone see that mags switched agents?

johnny_mostil
10-17-2004, 02:45 PM
I thought the problem with this year's team was having too many unproductive players in the lineup (Crede, Harris, Valentin, Catchers, Timo/Borchard). Replacing one of our productive players (Lee or Konerko) with another one (Beltran) doesn't really solve the problem, IMO.

I can live with Uribe at SS and Gload at 1B, if Konerko's traded. The Sox could then spend on guys like Koskie, Todd Walker, etc. I would also see whether or not the Marlins would be interested in trading off Juan Pierre (arbitration eligible). I don't think we have any players to interest them, but perhaps we could find another team using Konerko as the bait.
I thought the problem was all those home runs being hit by opposing players, starting with the game-tying blast by KC immortal Mendy Lopez. The 2004 edition of the Sox allowed sixty-plus more dingers than the 2003 version.

I was shocked at how producting the offense was even with Frank and Magglio out and all the zeroes you mentioned in the lineup. This was mostly because Rowand turned in a monster season, Lee was effective when he wasn't getting himself out, and Uribe slaughtered the ball about half the season.

I really don't see the Sox getting into the Beltran thing. They believe they have a "glut" of outfielders. My guess is they'll try to make some combination of Everett, Escobar, and LTP work, and spend any dough saved by letting Valentin and Schoeneweis and Ordonez walk on another mound horse, probably acquired by dealing Konerko while his perceived value is highest.

nitetrain8601
10-17-2004, 07:10 PM
Does anyone still have questions about Beltran and why we should go after him??????

Jjav829
10-17-2004, 07:16 PM
Does anyone still have questions about Beltran and why we should go after him??????Unbelievable. He's having an amazing postseason. 8 HR's now, tying Barry Bonds mark. The difference is Barry took 17 games to hit 8. Beltran took just 9 games. I gotta admit, even though I think spending the money we'd give Beltran on 2-3 players might be a better move, I'd love to see Beltran here.

nitetrain8601
10-17-2004, 07:25 PM
^^Heck yea, at first I was a bit skeptical because I didn't know what the big deal was about, but this season I got mlb.tv and he's shown me he's an all-world player. The scary thing is Gary Gaetti(the Astros' hitting coach) said he has the power of Barry Bond's present day and the speed of a young Barry Bonds. No doubt KW should go after him. He's proven how big he is. The hype is real.

jabrch
10-17-2004, 09:17 PM
After watching his performance in the playoffs, I am 100% convinced he will end up a Yankee. KW will go after him - but in all likelihood he will not be affordable to us - if we also want to sign another veteran starting pitcher.

SomebodyToldMe
10-17-2004, 09:59 PM
We as Sox fans should already know the greatness that is Beltran. He we've seen this guy play a lot. And why anyone wouldn't want this guy with us is a complete nut.

idseer
10-17-2004, 10:56 PM
We as Sox fans should already know the greatness that is Beltran. He we've seen this guy play a lot. And why anyone wouldn't want this guy with us is a complete nut.i doubt there's a sox fan alive who wouldn't want him.

but then ... that's not the question. is he worth the money, to the sox, he'll be asking? i say no. he'll just be another magglio on a team with average starters, poor relief, no catcher and no second basemen.

people need to get their eyes off his homeruns. you're falling into the same trap the sox have been stuck in for years and years.

Randar68
10-18-2004, 12:09 AM
people need to their eyes off his homeruns. you're falling into the same trap the sox have been stuck in for years and years.
You're right, a 40 SB and .380 OBP hitter is not needed on a team with so many similar players...

santo=dorf
10-18-2004, 12:17 AM
You're right, a 40 SB and .380 OBP hitter is not needed on a team with so many similar players...
And it's not like we need to improve our defense up the middle either.

idseer
10-18-2004, 08:31 AM
You're right, a 40 SB and .380 OBP hitter is not needed on a team with so many similar players...obviously you miss my point with that last sentence. i'm quite aware of beltran's sb and obp numbers. that is NOT what is getting everyone all hot and sticky about beltran. it's his BIG numbers. the same thing sox fans always get excited about.

for a WHOLE lot less money that stolen base and on base percentage can be had with someone like pierre. and MONEY was the main point of my post.

ok?

Ol' No. 2
10-18-2004, 10:28 AM
Beltran is having a great post-season. But let's put our eyeballs back in our head and keep this in perspective. Look at the list of WS MVP's and you find such NOT HOF-calibre players as Scott Brosius, John Wetteland, Jose Rigo, Ray Knight and Darrell Porter. Even an average player can have a hot streak.

Beltran's regular season numbers were good, but are they really worth $15M+?

Hangar18
10-18-2004, 10:30 AM
money money money. This will be the reason he WONT sign here.

Randar68
10-18-2004, 12:06 PM
money money money. This will be the reason he WONT sign here.
That's fine, but for idseer to make it sound like he wouldn't help the team is stupid. 40 SB and a .380 OBP out of ANY position in the order is a HUGE bonus. Add in about 40 HR's and Gold Glove CF defense, and anybody who wouldn't pay him 14 million is out of their mind, IMO.

Look past his average this year, people. Look at his career numbers, look at what he's doing in the playoffs, he played in 2 leagues this year, half of which against pitchers he'd never face before...

PLUS HE SWITCH-HITS!

I'm not going to be fooled into thinking were are going to be a legit player and won't believe anything until I see him in a Sox jersey at a press conference, but let's not kid ourselves here, folks. JR has put up the big money in the past. Albert Belle, Frank to a degree, Navarro, heck, they just poured a TON of money into Garcia and Contreras...

Because you have some perception of JR as a cheap old bastard doesn't mean he hasn't made big moves or signed big contracts in the past or will do it again in the future...

idseer
10-18-2004, 12:55 PM
That's fine, but for idseer to make it sound like he wouldn't help the team is stupid. 40 SB and a .380 OBP out of ANY position in the order is a HUGE bonus. Add in about 40 HR's and Gold Glove CF defense, and anybody who wouldn't pay him 14 million is out of their mind, IMO.
sorry but the stupidity is on your behalf not mine. did you even read my opening remark? i'll refresh your memory.
"i doubt there's a sox fan alive who wouldn't want him."
does this sound like i don't think he'd help the team?
i was talking strickly about the money it would take to get him .... and 14 mil will NOT get him either. that will be the starting point.

Look past his average this year, people. Look at his career numbers, look at what he's doing in the playoffs, he played in 2 leagues this year, half of which against pitchers he'd never face before...
you mean like colon did when the year before we got him? you know what randar? that doesn't mean diddly!

Because you have some perception of JR as a cheap old bastard doesn't mean he hasn't made big moves or signed big contracts in the past or will do it again in the future...
and he has NEVER done it wisely. so this means exactly nothing also.


i'm also guessing that no way in hell would beltran want to come back to the american central. why would he? the man will want to play for a contender and if you look carefully, you'll find that THAT IS NOT US!

mdep524
10-18-2004, 01:08 PM
I liked it better when Carlos Beltran was a relatively obscure baseball player toiling in the anonymity of Kansas City. He's been my favorite player in all of baseball for three years now, now all the sudden he's the media darling and household name that everyone loves. I'm happy for him, but I liked it better when he was unheralded and underrated by the casual observers. Oh well.

By the way, you can throw out any chance of the Sox signing him at this point. When, on national television, you set playoff records for homeruns only weeks away from free agency, you make yourself prohibitively expensive. Beltran will no longer be a good deal, his price is now going to be so high that I'm afraid he is going to become over-rated nationally. Especially if/when he's patrolling centerfield for the Yankees and making $17 mil per year.

SOXSINCE'70
10-18-2004, 01:23 PM
Because you have some perception of JR as a cheap old bastard doesn't mean he hasn't made big moves or signed big contracts in the past or will do it again in the future...

:reinsy

"You don't know me that well,do you??":D: :D:

pissonthecubs
10-21-2004, 01:06 AM
Hey, that's great news. I wasn't aware of that. Maybe we in fact have an outside shot of signing him.
i would think a very outside chance. sure it would be great to have him in CF or RF, but like it was said before, we would have to move CLee or PK. i think i could handle losing one of those guys. i think adding a guy like christian guzman from the twins would be a good pick up too. that would be a "grinder" that Kenny Williams was talking about over a year ago. signing Beltran would be great, but signing guys like guzman might get us closer to winning the division.

mdep524
10-21-2004, 03:28 AM
i think adding a guy like christian guzman from the twins would be a good pick up too. that would be a "grinder" that Kenny Williams was talking about over a year ago. signing Beltran would be great, but signing guys like guzman might get us closer to winning the division.
Ugh...:(:

The Cheat
10-21-2004, 04:17 AM
UGh??? Guys with career .303 OBP's are exactly what this team needs. :rolleyes:

eshunn2001
10-21-2004, 07:21 PM
If Carlos Beltran is playing for the Whitesox next year. I will run around Wrigley With nothing but a sign that reads I hate Cub fans. (ALA Diehard with a vengence..)

shagar69
10-21-2004, 07:33 PM
we have no chance in hell if the report of beltran wanting 20 per for 8 years was true. and even if we had the money i still wouldnt want him for that price. we should focus on starting pitching and some cheap, OBP guys

eshunn2001
10-22-2004, 11:11 AM
Beltran is better than Maggs, Carlos, and Paul...besides, we won't get rid of ALL of them, you'll at least get to keep one of them. Take a chill pill.
Well, I dunno if you could say he is better than Maggs WAS. But, It really does not Matter since niether Maggs nor Beltran will be in a sox uniform next season.

uscomiscular
10-22-2004, 11:35 AM
The Sox should most definetly pursue Beltran, if he signs they could either move Rowand to left or right. LEts face it Mags isnt coming back, Lee will be traded, and Borchard sucks. The Sox should be able to afford Beltran outright, but that would pretty much be the only moves they could make. Sendin Lee, Konerko, Crede, Valetine packing should help clear up some money

idseer
10-22-2004, 11:57 AM
The Sox should most definetly pursue Beltran, if he signs they could either move Rowand to left or right. LEts face it Mags isnt coming back, Lee will be traded, and Borchard sucks. The Sox should be able to afford Beltran outright, but that would pretty much be the only moves they could make. Sendin Lee, Konerko, Crede, Valetine packing should help clear up some money
then all we have to worry about is not having a 1st baseman, 2nd baseman, 3rd baseman, left fielder, catcher, or any pitching.
let's hear some more of your ideas. :?:

uscomiscular
10-22-2004, 12:02 PM
You can view my ideas for improving the Sox by reading my Totally Biased Free Agent Wish List Post

SOXSINCE'70
10-22-2004, 12:02 PM
then all we have to worry about is not having a 1st baseman, 2nd baseman, 3rd baseman, left fielder, catcher, or any pitching.
let's hear some more of your ideas. :?:
To paraphrase a quote the Jews read in their bibles (Haggadahs)
on Passover,"Why should this year be different
from any other??":angry: :angry: :angry:

idseer
10-22-2004, 12:12 PM
You can view my ideas for improving the Sox by reading my Totally Biased Free Agent Wish List Postbut what you said on your wish list doesn't jibe with ...

"The Sox should be able to afford Beltran outright, but that would pretty much be the only moves they could make. Sendin Lee, Konerko, Crede, Valetine packing should help clear up some money"

so where do guzman, veritek, and beltre come from and how did you manage to keep konerko?

jabrch
10-22-2004, 12:13 PM
To paraphrase a quote the Jews read in their bibles (Haggadahs)
on Passover,"Why should this year be different
from any other??":angry: :angry: :angry:
To paraphrase another well used Jewish phrase... Oy Vey!

uscomiscular
10-22-2004, 12:19 PM
Ok Ok , So my ideas dont jibe as you said, good thing m not GM huh. As you will not I posted the Beltran response first. If I need to make a concrete decision Im going with my wish list

santo=dorf
10-26-2004, 05:06 PM
Cubbie fans now have their panties in a bunch as Peter Gammons went on baseball tonight earlier and said that Houston has an outside shot of re-signing Beltran, and Betran doesn't like NY, so he'll end up signing with the Cubs.

:boston

"I also went on Sportscenter saying the White Sox would win the 2004 World Series."

Ol' No. 2
10-26-2004, 05:13 PM
Cubbie fans now have their panties in a bunch as Peter Gammons went on baseball tonight earlier and said that Houston has an outside shot of re-signing Beltran, and Betran doesn't like NY, so he'll end up signing with the Cubs.I don't see the Cubs payroll rising enough to accomodate Beltran unless they can find a sucker big enough to take Sosa off their hands. Even with Alou's $11M gone, they're tight on budget and they need a SS and now a LF.

:bostonWhat do I know? I also said the Sox were going to move to the AL East.

Jjav829
10-26-2004, 05:15 PM
Cubbie fans now have their panties in a bunch as Peter Gammons went on baseball tonight earlier and said that Houston has an outside shot of re-signing Beltran, and Betran doesn't like NY, so he'll end up signing with the Cubs.

:boston

"I also went on Sportscenter saying the White Sox would win the 2004 World Series."Good. The Kiss of death from Gammons. Now he'll be a White Sox. :cool:

Vsahajpal
10-26-2004, 06:08 PM
From what I'm hearing, Gammons may just be right this time.