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View Full Version : Big boost to our bullpen next year:Arnie Muņoz


MRKARNO
09-23-2004, 10:41 PM
The real key to our bullpen next year will not be Neal Cotts, nor will it be Jon Adkins. I have not seen enough consistancy from these two to have confidence in them that they can be important parts of our bullpen next year. Arnie Muņoz on the other hand, has shown very good consistancy allowing only one run in 8 innings of work so far. His start in Montreal was nothing short of a disaster, but he was projected to be a major league reliever, not a starter. I think that he could be a high-quality major league reliever in our bullpen in the future and will be an important set up man or possibly even closer next year and beyond. Between Marte, Taktasu and Munoz, we could have a quite formidable back of the bullpen. Munoz is only 22 and has a long future ahead of him. I know we wanted to cast him off and forgot about him after his start, but we need to remember him and use him wisely.

balke
09-23-2004, 10:43 PM
The real key to our bullpen next year will not be Neal Cotts, nor will it be Jon Adkins. I have not seen enough consistancy from these two to have confidence in them that they can be important parts of our bullpen next year. Arnie Muņoz on the other hand, has shown very good consistancy allowing only one run in 8 innings of work so far. His start in Montreal was nothing short of a disaster, but he was projected to be a major league reliever, not a starter. I think that he could be a high-quality major league reliever in our bullpen in the future and will be an important set up man or possibly even closer next year and beyond. Between Marte, Taktasu and Munoz, we could have a quite formidable back of the bullpen. Munoz is only 22 and has a long future ahead of him. I know we wanted to cast him off and forgot about him after his start, but we need to remember him and use him wisely.Diaz has been solid in the pen as well.

MRKARNO
09-23-2004, 10:49 PM
Diaz has been solid in the pen as well. Quite true. He owns a 2.94 ERA in 15.1 innings with only 4 walks. Not bad by any stretch of the imagination. If Ozzie and KW are smart, they will realize the good pitchers they already have, add one more pretty good one and form a great bullpen of Takatsu, Marte, Diaz, Munoz, Politte, a good reliever and another one from the system. Maybe Bajenaru will emerge in the remaining games this year or ST next year and that will help answer our problems.

balboner
09-23-2004, 10:53 PM
I wish I could share your same confidence in Cotts. A 5.32 ERA out of the pen isnt exactly good. He really needs to learn another pitch. He's improved his control this year, I'd like to see him improve his offspeed next year.

MRKARNO
09-23-2004, 11:00 PM
I wish I could share your same confidence in Cotts. A 5.32 ERA out of the pen isnt exactly good. He really needs to learn another pitch. He's improved his control this year, I'd like to see him improve his offspeed next year.
I actually said that I do not have much or any confidence in Cotts or Adkins. I agree with what you are saying. His problem is he gives up far too many homers. One homer every 6 innings is not very good and neither is a walk every two innings. Cotts can look so good at times, and so bad at others and others he looks good, but gives up a homer. We should not expect Cotts or Adkins to be important parts of our pen next year, but we should expect Munoz and Diaz to be important parts because they have given us no reason not to at this point.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2004, 11:45 PM
Karno says: "I think that he could be a high-quality major league reliever in our bullpen in the future and will be an important set up man or possibly even closer next year and beyond."

and Jon Garland is going to be a twenty game winner.


No more...

:gulp:

For you tonight!

Lip

MRKARNO
09-23-2004, 11:50 PM
Karno says: "I think that he could be a high-quality major league reliever in our bullpen in the future and will be an important set up man or possibly even closer next year and beyond."

and Jon Garland is going to be a twenty game winner.


No more...

:gulp:

For you tonight!

Lip
I dont think this opinion is all that radical as you make it sound. The key to forming a good bullpen is utilizing your minor league pitchers. A good bullpen can't just be bought, it must be formed. Until Munoz and Diaz prove that they cannot get the job done in relief, they deserve the chance to be an important part of our pen. Munoz was going to be in the pen in 03, but a bad ST prevented that, so the concept of having him in our 05 pen is not that far fetched.

OEO Magglio
09-23-2004, 11:58 PM
Karno says: "I think that he could be a high-quality major league reliever in our bullpen in the future and will be an important set up man or possibly even closer next year and beyond."

and Jon Garland is going to be a twenty game winner.


No more...

:gulp:

For you tonight!

Lip
Why lip?? Because he's a young pitcher and no young pitchers can ever be descent, if your going to win you just have to spend 100 million dollars on veteran pitchers, right lip? :rolleyes:

nodiggity59
09-24-2004, 12:06 AM
Karno says: "I think that he could be a high-quality major league reliever in our bullpen in the future and will be an important set up man or possibly even closer next year and beyond."

and Jon Garland is going to be a twenty game winner.


No more...

:gulp:

For you tonight!

Lip
So what do you know that the rest of us don't about Munoz? He's looked promising in the bullpen. So far, that's all you can ask. If I recall, there was a certain man named Gagne who struggled mightily as a starter. He ended up just fine in the pen.

Not saying Munoz is Gagne, just saying there's no basis to say he CAN'T be a positive factor next year.

Huisj
09-24-2004, 01:11 AM
So what do you know that the rest of us don't about Munoz? He's looked promising in the bullpen. So far, that's all you can ask. If I recall, there was a certain man named Gagne who struggled mightily as a starter. He ended up just fine in the pen.

Not saying Munoz is Gagne, just saying there's no basis to say he CAN'T be a positive factor next year.
remember the rumors a few years ago about the dodgers wanting to trade gagne for howry in spring training because they needed a closer?

of course the sox would have probably kept running him out as a starter and he probably would be yet another .500 4.90 ERA pitcher for the sox.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2004, 02:00 PM
Gang:

First off there is a misconception about my attacks on 'can't miss kids.' I never said I dislike 'can't miss kids,' I have often used the fact that Oakland, Seattle and Houston HAVE developed 'can't miss kid pitchers' who actually CAN (and have...) and have posted the same. (look it up yourself)

My problem is with the SOX 'can't miss kids,' because their track record since the early 90's has been they CAN'T. (and HAVEN'T)

When (or if) the Sox ever start actually producing some kids who are lights out from day one in the bigs instead of embarassing themselves, my opinion will change.

Now in regards to Munoz. Here's his problem. He has a devestating curve ball one of the three best I've ever seen. Ranking right up there with Blyleven, Koufax and Ryan. His problem is his physical size.

Those three guys had something else they could go to if the breaking ball was off that night...it was called a power fastball. Munoz is a little s#$% and in today's game, that's death. Remember Jim Parque people? The juiced up sluggers, band box ballparks and tight strike zone mean you have to have the physical ability to play the game. The only little s#$% I can think of today who has been great has been Billy Wagner and with a 100 MPH fastball he seems to be a freak.

hey I hope Munoz can make it. The Sox badly need pitching help. But based on a fifteen years track record I wouldn't hold my breath.

Lip

SoxFanForever
09-24-2004, 02:39 PM
Gang:

First off there is a misconception about my attacks on 'can't miss kids.' I never said I dislike 'can't miss kids,' I have often used the fact that Oakland, Seattle and Houston HAVE developed 'can't miss kid pitchers' who actually CAN (and have...) and have posted the same. (look it up yourself)

My problem is with the SOX 'can't miss kids,' because their track record since the early 90's has been they CAN'T. (and HAVEN'T)

When (or if) the Sox ever start actually producing some kids who are lights out from day one in the bigs instead of embarassing themselves, my opinion will change.

Now in regards to Munoz. Here's his problem. He has a devestating curve ball one of the three best I've ever seen. Ranking right up there with Blyleven, Koufax and Ryan. His problem is his physical size.

Those three guys had something else they could go to if the breaking ball was off that night...it was called a power fastball. Munoz is a little s#$% and in today's game, that's death. Remember Jim Parque people? The juiced up sluggers, band box ballparks and tight strike zone mean you have to have the physical ability to play the game. The only little s#$% I can think of today who has been great has been Billy Wagner and with a 100 MPH fastball he seems to be a freak.

hey I hope Munoz can make it. The Sox badly need pitching help. But based on a fifteen years track record I wouldn't hold my breath.

Lip

Pedro and Oswalt are little s%&*# by todays standards and they are doing pretty well for themselves, wouldn't you say? I am not saying Munoz will be the next Pedro or the next Oswalt by any stretch. I am just saying that there is a track record of some smaller pitchers having success in the big leagues. Why not give the guy some time to show what he can do before we decide that he can or can not cut it? Just a thought.

MRKARNO
09-24-2004, 03:34 PM
Gang:

First off there is a misconception about my attacks on 'can't miss kids.' I never said I dislike 'can't miss kids,' I have often used the fact that Oakland, Seattle and Houston HAVE developed 'can't miss kid pitchers' who actually CAN (and have...) and have posted the same. (look it up yourself)

My problem is with the SOX 'can't miss kids,' because their track record since the early 90's has been they CAN'T. (and HAVEN'T)

When (or if) the Sox ever start actually producing some kids who are lights out from day one in the bigs instead of embarassing themselves, my opinion will change.

Now in regards to Munoz. Here's his problem. He has a devestating curve ball one of the three best I've ever seen. Ranking right up there with Blyleven, Koufax and Ryan. His problem is his physical size.

Those three guys had something else they could go to if the breaking ball was off that night...it was called a power fastball. Munoz is a little s#$% and in today's game, that's death. Remember Jim Parque people? The juiced up sluggers, band box ballparks and tight strike zone mean you have to have the physical ability to play the game. The only little s#$% I can think of today who has been great has been Billy Wagner and with a 100 MPH fastball he seems to be a freak.

hey I hope Munoz can make it. The Sox badly need pitching help. But based on a fifteen years track record I wouldn't hold my breath.

Lip

The only thing I'm saying is that he could be a great bullpen guy who can do a good job in the 6th or 7th innings in the short term and maybe later in the game as he builds confidence. When you're a reliever, a lot of your flaws can be hidden because you are not out there for but about 15 pitches. He might be a decent setup guy.

No one is saying he's a can't miss kid, but the reason the Rangers were so successful this year was a bullpen that went about 5-6 deep because of their prospects. I dont see how we can't turn out one or two good middle relievers like they can, especially when the two in question have shown thus far that they can get the job done.

Clembasbal
09-24-2004, 03:44 PM
I think this might be a good idea, Munoz was a reliever throughout the minors...except for this past season. He did well this year, so lets see what he's got rather than casting him aside because of one or two bad starts.

Secondly, I read that the Scrubbies have 8 pitchers (out of 13, 15 with sept call ups) that throw over 93 mph. I don't think the Sox have more than 3 or 4. If Cooper and Kenny want good pitching staffs in this bandbox we play in we need guys that throw heat, not finese. Look at Mark's numbers since the fences went in, his numbers went up. We need strikeout pitchers not corner guys.

Munoz is not one of these, he might be a good lefty specialist like Wunsch was but only time will tell. I want big powerful guys (and not in a sexual way).

Randar68
09-24-2004, 03:49 PM
Pedro and Oswalt are little s%&*# by todays standards and they are doing pretty well for themselves, wouldn't you say? I am not saying Munoz will be the next Pedro or the next Oswalt by any stretch. I am just saying that there is a track record of some smaller pitchers having success in the big leagues. Why not give the guy some time to show what he can do before we decide that he can or can not cut it? Just a thought.Mike Hampton, Takatsu, etc etc...

More than half of the pitchers in MLB are under 6'1" tall. Rauch was 6'10". So you're right, who gives a flying **** about their height?

For a reliever it really matters not one iota...

bafiarocks03
09-24-2004, 04:22 PM
Omg!! Thank you dude! Nobody else likes Arnie! I think he's good! Whenever i go to a game or something and they put him in..im like the only one in the whole park cheering for him! It's like come on!

jeremyb1
09-24-2004, 04:31 PM
Karno says: "I think that he could be a high-quality major league reliever in our bullpen in the future and will be an important set up man or possibly even closer next year and beyond."

and Jon Garland is going to be a twenty game winner.


No more...

:gulp:

For you tonight!

Yeah, c'mon Karno. You know it's impossible to be a quality major league player prior to one's 28th birthday. :D:

jeremyb1
09-24-2004, 04:34 PM
For a reliever it really matters not one iota...

Agreed. I think Munoz size can only pose problems in terms of durability and that's a non-issue in relief.

SoxxoS
09-24-2004, 04:57 PM
Omg!! Thank you dude! Nobody else likes Arnie! I think he's good! Whenever i go to a game or something and they put him in..im like the only one in the whole park cheering for him! It's like come on!
I am just amazed at the amount of bad players that you are fans of. It's quite funny. Not that it's a bad thing, but between Munoz, Jimenez, Harris you have quite the group of players there. Add Crede and Sandy Alomar to your sig, they would fit nicely.

bafiarocks03
09-24-2004, 05:01 PM
I am just amazed at the amount of bad players that you are fans of. It's quite funny. Not that it's a bad thing, but between Munoz, Jimenez, Harris you have quite the group of players there. Add Crede and Sandy Alomar to your sig, they would fit nicely.

You know that not very nice! What do you have against them!? Ok they aren't the best players in the world but who cares! Hey Crede won for us last night!:D:

markp8867
09-24-2004, 05:19 PM
I am just amazed at the amount of bad players that you are fans of. It's quite funny. Not that it's a bad thing, but between Munoz, Jimenez, Harris you have quite the group of players there. Add Crede and Sandy Alomar to your sig, they would fit nicely.May I ask which team you are rooting for? Do you even watch the games? Crede won the game last night and yet you say that Crede is a bad player. But in your profile you list Crede as your favorite Sox player. Make up your mind! Sounds like you are a fair weathered fan to me. If that is the case then go root for the Cubbies!

SoxxoS Favorite Current Sox Player:
Crede

SoxxoS Favorite Past Sox Player:
Ron Kittle or Dan Pasqua

SoxxoS
09-24-2004, 05:45 PM
May I ask which team you are rooting for? Do you even watch the games? Crede won the game last night and yet you say that Crede is a bad player. But in your profile you list Crede as your favorite Sox player. Make up your mind! Sounds like you are a fair weathered fan to me. If that is the case then go root for the Cubbies!

SoxxoS Favorite Current Sox Player:
Crede

SoxxoS Favorite Past Sox Player:
Ron Kittle or Dan PasquaI know winning one game that means nothing automatically makes him Scott Rolen. :rolleyes:

I have been a member here for 2.5 years. I haven't changed that profile in I don't know how long. Crede was my favorite player. I still like him. I like players that go about their business and keep quiet. Right now, he is a bad player. I am confident that he can possibly be average one day. I don't keep tabs on my profile and what I put at WSI.

Ron Kittle hitting a 450 foot homer was the first homer I saw in person, and Pasqua was my first autograph.

Don't call me fair weather again. Crede is I believe 2nd to last third baseman in the majors in OPS (the one stat the means something). He isn't good. Now that you mention it, I am going to change my profile. But you did catch me, I will give you credit for that. But bafia takes liking bad player to a whole other level. Which I stated above, was fine.

OEO Magglio
09-24-2004, 06:03 PM
I am just amazed at the amount of bad players that you are fans of. It's quite funny. Not that it's a bad thing, but between Munoz, Jimenez, Harris you have quite the group of players there. Add Crede and Sandy Alomar to your sig, they would fit nicely.
I hate d'angelo is much if not more then anyone else on this board, he's a headcase and good teams don't have players like jiminez. I however don't agree with you already calling munoz a bad player, yes he got rocked in his first major league start, so what? Maybe karno is on to something here, Arnie was dominant last year in winterball(I believe it was winterball, correct me if I'm wrong) coming out of the pen. Maybe Arnie is a guy who can't start but can be a really quality reliever in the major leagues.

Randar68
09-24-2004, 06:06 PM
I hate d'angelo is much if not more then anyone else on this board, he's a headcase and good teams don't have players like jiminez. I however don't agree with you already calling munoz a bad player, yes he got rocked in his first major league start, so what? Maybe karno is on to something here, Arnie was dominant last year in winterball(I believe it was winterball, correct me if I'm wrong) coming out of the pen. Maybe Arnie is a guy who can't start but can be a really quality reliever in the major leagues.
I've been saying that for 2 years. He's been a stud as a releiver, why change things? He was very good as a starter in AA, but good LH'd relievers are not alwasy easy to find...

OEO Magglio
09-24-2004, 06:27 PM
I've been saying that for 2 years. He's been a stud as a releiver, why change things? He was very good as a starter in AA, but good LH'd relievers are not alwasy easy to find...
A little off topic here but kind of the same idea, Randar do you think Diaz's future is in the bullpen, he's been pitching real well out of the pen so far, I wanted to hear what you think?

Daver
09-24-2004, 06:44 PM
A little off topic here but kind of the same idea, Randar do you think Diaz's future is in the bullpen, he's been pitching real well out of the pen so far, I wanted to hear what you think?
I'm not Randar, but he has the stuff and the attitude to be a starter, his biggest hurdle will be learning the hitters at the MLB level. He's a guy that would benefit from having a veteran catcher that can call pitches as well as a game to help him.

OEO Magglio
09-24-2004, 06:45 PM
I'm not Randar, but he has the stuff and the attitude to be a starter, his biggest hurdle will be learning the hitters at the MLB level. He's a guy that would benefit from having a veteran catcher that can call pitches as well as a game to help him.
You aren't?? Thanks for your opinion, daver.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2004, 11:26 PM
Well there went his 'scoreless streak...'

Lip

MRKARNO
09-24-2004, 11:35 PM
Well there went his 'scoreless streak...'

Lip
And that still amounts to a 1.82 ERA. Two runs over 9.2? That's really not so bad. Now you're just being negative for the purpose of being negative seeing that no one even mentioned the words "scoreless streak" in this entire thread. It's hard for me to believe that you want him to succeed.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2004, 11:44 PM
Karno:

In another thread someone (you?) mentioned he had a scoreless streak of 8 innings or something like that comprised of meanlingless September games for a team that was out of the race.

Don't get bent out of shape because I threw it back at you.

Let's see Arnie baby do that in June against a first place team or two before you talk. That 'stat' reminded me of Jeremy's post telling all of us how Jon Rauch won a game. WOW!

Do I want Munoz to fail. Not personally...no. Do I want the Sox to change their myopic, small market thinking which has produced squat for the past 24 years...in a heartbeat.

Lip

OEO Magglio
09-25-2004, 03:07 AM
Karno:

In another thread someone (you?) mentioned he had a scoreless streak of 8 innings or something like that comprised of meanlingless September games for a team that was out of the race.

Don't get bent out of shape because I threw it back at you.

Let's see Arnie baby do that in June against a first place team or two before you talk. That 'stat' reminded me of Jeremy's post telling all of us how Jon Rauch won a game. WOW!

Do I want Munoz to fail. Not personally...no. Do I want the Sox to change their myopic, small market thinking which has produced squat for the past 24 years...in a heartbeat.

Lip
You know what lip, we all want reinsdorf to spend more money but it isn't happening anytime soon, so why don't you stop complaining about it?

MRKARNO
09-25-2004, 09:41 AM
Karno:

In another thread someone (you?) mentioned he had a scoreless streak of 8 innings or something like that comprised of meanlingless September games for a team that was out of the race.

Don't get bent out of shape because I threw it back at you.

Let's see Arnie baby do that in June against a first place team or two before you talk. That 'stat' reminded me of Jeremy's post telling all of us how Jon Rauch won a game. WOW!

Do I want Munoz to fail. Not personally...no. Do I want the Sox to change their myopic, small market thinking which has produced squat for the past 24 years...in a heartbeat.

Lip
You can't throw back something that I never said. He threw 8 innings of one run baseball, not a scoreless streak. If you're going to try to make a snide comment like that, you have to have your facts right or else you just look stupid. Also 5.2 of those innings were against Minnesota, Anaheim, Oakland and Texas, not exactly bad teams (his first run came against Minny). The fact is that this organization has raised payroll almost to the point where you would expect it to be, but they're taking on much larger contracts, not all of them good like those franchises with larger budgets. See the Jose Contreras contract for what I'm talking about. Our payroll is likely to be at 80 million next year, which is not bad at all.

Everyone understands you're upset with Jerry, but he probably doesnt read this board nor does he care what you think. If you can come up with 300 million or whatever to buy the team then go for it, otherwise deal with it. No one is happy with the ownership and your schtick gets really old because nothing is going to be done about it in the short term and it leads you to root against younger White Sox players.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2004, 12:37 PM
Karno says: "Our payroll is likely to be at 80 million next year, which is not bad at all."

:rolleyes:

Well there goes Karno's credibility!

LOL

Lip