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View Full Version : Are these few wins starting to cloud KW's vision???


HaroMaster87
09-23-2004, 01:31 AM
***??? Does this guy have Alzheimers??? Has he forgotton what has gone on here the last three month???

CHANGE THE FRIGGIN' TEAM!!!!!!



Sox general manager Ken Williams insists he will not let frustration overtake him in his pursuit to develop a World Series champion.

He's not totally sold on the notion of transforming his team of station-to-station power hitters into scrappy singles hitters.

"This is not a case of a lack of talent," he said. "It's just the right mix we have to find. You better be very careful not to turn your team into a Punch-and-Judy team, because [U.S. Cellular Field] is now playing like a small ballpark. You better play to your ballpark's strength, so you have to have a certain amount of power to do that.

"Yes, we would like high on-base percentage guys who can run, can handle the bat and move runners. But to get those players, it's a tougher situation than just opening up the fantasy draft and let me pick this guy for $2."

MisterB
09-23-2004, 01:39 AM
Sox general manager Ken Williams insists he will not let frustration overtake him in his pursuit to develop a World Series champion.

He's not totally sold on the notion of transforming his team of station-to-station power hitters into scrappy singles hitters.

"This is not a case of a lack of talent," he said. "It's just the right mix we have to find. You better be very careful not to turn your team into a Punch-and-Judy team, because [U.S. Cellular Field] is now playing like a small ballpark. You better play to your ballpark's strength, so you have to have a certain amount of power to do that.

"Yes, we would like high on-base percentage guys who can run, can handle the bat and move runners. But to get those players, it's a tougher situation than just opening up the fantasy draft and let me pick this guy for $2."My translation:
:KW
"I will make no major moves in the offseason." :angry:

balke
09-23-2004, 01:50 AM
My translation:

"I will make no major moves in the offseason." :angry:
:chickenlittle:

Kenny admits in the article to making some bad "gut decisions", hopefully Oz can take a cue from that...

Kenny has to stay focused this offseason, (and now) to see who can play where next season. The lineup we have is misleading, because we will potentially have Frank in the middle of it next season. I think the best quote is "30 other teams will be going after the same thing we are". Cause everyone now knows how important OBP guys are. It's going to be tough to drag out a bunch of winners like it's magic.

He acknowledges needing another starter, and always has. It sounds like Jon G is gone, or perhaps someone else. (contreres?). Maybe Hawk is apologizing for the players who are leaving? Jon G. Willie. ? I don't know, I mean all we can do is wait and see. I love willie's speed, I'd like to see him stick around. I think he is a little faster than he's been since he collided w/ Maggs. Lately he's shown more speed.

HaroMaster87
09-23-2004, 02:05 AM
I love willie's speed, I'd like to see him stick around. I think he is a little faster than he's been since he collided w/ Maggs. Lately he's shown more speed.
I love his speed,too, but he doesnt have a CLUE on how to steal a base...So the speed means absolutly nothing. Especially since he cant bunt or even get on base....bleh...
:hawk

"HE GONE!"

Wealz
09-23-2004, 07:51 AM
You better be very careful not to turn your team into a Punch-and-Judy team, because [U.S. Cellular Field] is now playing like a small ballpark. You better play to your ballpark's strength, so you have to have a certain amount of power to do that.
Kudos to Williams for realizing what Ozzie has been saying about building around speed and defense is nonsense.

MRKARNO
09-23-2004, 09:40 AM
I was a lot more reassured that KW knows what he is doing after reading that quote. The key is getting high-OBP guys if you're going to reduce the power a bit, not getting more Timo Perezes

Lip Man 1
09-23-2004, 10:23 AM
Just wondering....

How many 'power hitters,' does a team need to compete?

Next year the Sox will have Thomas, Everett and either Lee or Konerko. Maybe both. That's around 110 - 130 home runs.

That's not enough?????

Oh I see... let's have seven 'power' guys who can't run, can't steal a base, can't execute fundamentals and will hit 200 to 250 home runs.

Yea that'll do the trick!

Lip

Tekijawa
09-23-2004, 10:23 AM
"Yes, we would like high on-base percentage guys who can run, can handle the bat and move runners. But to get those players, it's a tougher situation than just opening up the fantasy draft and let me pick this guy for $2."$2 Fantasy Draft guys???? Is JR Handicapping him in that league too? Doesn't he realize we have a bunch of $2 fantasy guys on the team already!!!! What we are Lacking is a $24 Dollar Starter, 2 $7 dollar Bull Pen Guys, A $10 Dollar Seconbaseman, a $10 Dollar 3rd Baseman/Shortstop and a $20 dollar outfielder!!?!?!?!?

Come on kenny you're setting the Bar pretty low if were shooting for the $2 Dollar guys this offseason!

MisterB
09-23-2004, 10:36 AM
:chickenlittle:

Kenny admits in the article to making some bad "gut decisions", hopefully Oz can take a cue from that...

Kenny has to stay focused this offseason, (and now) to see who can play where next season. The lineup we have is misleading, because we will potentially have Frank in the middle of it next season. I think the best quote is "30 other teams will be going after the same thing we are". Cause everyone now knows how important OBP guys are. It's going to be tough to drag out a bunch of winners like it's magic.

He acknowledges needing another starter, and always has. It sounds like Jon G is gone, or perhaps someone else. (contreres?). Maybe Hawk is apologizing for the players who are leaving? Jon G. Willie. ? I don't know, I mean all we can do is wait and see.Yes, he's stated he wants to get another starter, but he also thinks Grilli is 'impressive' enough for the 5th slot. So where does that mythical new starter fit in? I don't think KW has the ingenuity or wherewithal to get another top-of-the-rotation starter: I don't see an increase in payroll since it doesn't look like the Sox will even match last year's attendance, and frankly there's not enough high end minor league talent in the system to use in a big trade. If he does get another starter, it will be someone in the back of the rotation (and Garland gets dealt) or someone over the hill who he thinks he can squeeze a good year out of. And as for the lineup, he's already distancing himself from the 'Ozzieball' concept. He's still enamored with sluggers despite the claim that he's nauseated by 'swinging for the fences with 2 strikes'. (The fact that he traded Reed and deemed Borchard 'untouchable' speaks volumes about his attatchment to the longball.) This team has been doing that for 4 years and it hasn't gotten better - If these players aren't going to change, then he has to change the players. I understand the concept of tailoring the team to the ballpark, but playing .600 ball at home is useless if you play .400 on the road. (BTW the Sox are around .550 home/.450 road this season) By saying the high OBP type guys aren't easy to get, he's just covering his behind for when he can't come up with any of those type of players in the offseason. Maybe Kenny will surprise us all by pulling a rabbit out of his hat, but looking at his track record I don't believe he can do it.

Wealz
09-23-2004, 10:48 AM
Just wondering....

How many 'power hitters,' does a team need to compete?

Next year the Sox will have Thomas, Everett and either Lee or Konerko. Maybe both. That's around 110 - 130 home runs.

That's not enough?????

Oh I see... let's have seven 'power' guys who can't run, can't steal a base, can't execute fundamentals and will hit 200 to 250 home runs.

Yea that'll do the trick!

Lip
You can never hit enough home runs. It's been that way for a long, long time. This franchise lost to the Yankees year after year in the 50's because the Yankees hit home runs. Home runs are good things. You want a World Series? Get hitters who hit home runs and pitchers who prevent them.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2004, 10:49 AM
Mister B:

In the Sox convoluted, screwed up world Grilli's 7.50 ERA is 'impressive' enough for the 5th slot.

Now that's scary!

Lip

batmanZoSo
09-23-2004, 10:51 AM
Just wondering....

How many 'power hitters,' does a team need to compete?

Next year the Sox will have Thomas, Everett and either Lee or Konerko. Maybe both. That's around 110 - 130 home runs.

That's not enough?????

Oh I see... let's have seven 'power' guys who can't run, can't steal a base, can't execute fundamentals and will hit 200 to 250 home runs.

Yea that'll do the trick!

Lip

Don't forget Rowand and Uribe, both with 20 and if Crede finally comes along (just a little, please Joe) he'll certainly hit 25. We can be a higher scoring team, just with fewer home runs. We won't be so inconsistent because we'll have a more balanced attack and we won't be so stationary on the basepaths. Being able to score from first or second is really what we need...it takes away the need for another hit.

Wealz
09-23-2004, 10:56 AM
Don't forget Rowand and Uribe, both with 20 and if Crede finally comes along (just a little, please Joe) he'll certainly hit 25. We can be a higher scoring team, just with fewer home runs. We won't be so inconsistent because we'll have a more balanced attack and we won't be so stationary on the basepaths. Being able to score from first or second is really what we need...it takes away the need for another hit.
Offense from catcher, one of the middle infield positions, third base, right field and designated hitter has ranged from poor to nonexistent for most of the year and people are blaming home runs?

Lip Man 1
09-23-2004, 11:03 AM
Wealz:

I'd take my chances with those tremendous Sox teams from the 50's and 60's in today's game in a heartbeat over the brain dead, slow footed, all or nothing, lack of fundamentals riff raff that we've had to put up with since the White Flag Trade.

Those clubs had pitching in spades, knew how to play the game and gave maximum effort.

Can you say that about our 'home run derby' buffoons?

Lip

JasonC23
09-23-2004, 11:10 AM
Wealz:

I'd take my chances with those tremendous Sox teams from the 50's and 60's in today's game in a heartbeat over the brain dead, slow footed, all or nothing, lack of fundamentals riff raff that we've had to put up with since the White Flag Trade.

Those clubs had pitching in spades, knew how to play the game and gave maximum effort.

Can you say that about our 'home run derby' buffoons?

Lip
And those tremendous Sox teams from the '50s and '60s went to exactly the same number of playoffs and won exactly the same number of World Series as the current group.

I'm just sayin'...

Lip Man 1
09-23-2004, 11:12 AM
And had a hell of a lot better record didn't they. If I can't win a series I'll take an average of 92 or 93 wins per season for 17 years.

Lip

Gosox1917
09-23-2004, 12:05 PM
And those tremendous Sox teams from the '50s and '60s went to exactly the same number of playoffs and won exactly the same number of World Series as the current group.

I'm just sayin'...
Those tremendous teams were all hunting for one spot in the playoffs too. Today these guys have a chance to win a division consisting of five teams, three of which are usually garbage in every division, and have a shot at the wildcard too. If the Sox of the 50's and 60's were playing today, they would have racked up countless division titles and who knows how far they would have gone in today's playoffs.

By the way, it's nice to have power and its fun to watch the ball fly, but to win we need pitching too. Less of these slow power hitters, more high avg., high SB players, and good pitching. It's easier said than done but it's KW's job to put a team like that together.

Wealz
09-23-2004, 12:21 PM
Wealz:

I'd take my chances with those tremendous Sox teams from the 50's and 60's in today's game in a heartbeat over the brain dead, slow footed, all or nothing, lack of fundamentals riff raff that we've had to put up with since the White Flag Trade.

Those clubs had pitching in spades, knew how to play the game and gave maximum effort.

Can you say that about our 'home run derby' buffoons?

Lip
One thing these post-1999 Sox teams have in common with those of the 50's and 60's is zero World Series titles.

Wealz
09-23-2004, 12:23 PM
Those tremendous teams were all hunting for one spot in the playoffs too. Today these guys have a chance to win a division consisting of five teams, three of which are usually garbage in every division, and have a shot at the wildcard too. If the Sox of the 50's and 60's were playing today, they would have racked up countless division titles and who knows how far they would have gone in today's playoffs.

By the way, it's nice to have power and its fun to watch the ball fly, but to win we need pitching too. Less of these slow power hitters, more high avg., high SB players, and good pitching. It's easier said than done but it's KW's job to put a team like that together.
The very last thing I'd want a team playing in U.S. Cellular Field to do is give up outs in an attempt to steal 'a' base.

poorme
09-23-2004, 12:24 PM
One thing these post-1999 Sox teams have in common with those of the 50's and 60's is zero World Series titles.
well, at least they got there...

Wealz
09-23-2004, 12:27 PM
well, at least they got there...
They did. A reason for that was they maxed the advantage of their home park which as we all know was a pitcher's paradise.

SpringfldFan
09-23-2004, 12:34 PM
Yes, you absolutely, without question, have to tailor your team to your park. The fences are closer and the atmosphere dictate you need to play to that by having power. However, another park "characteristic" is that it has 4 basepaths 90 feet apart. You darn well better also tailor your team to that and have some guys that can get on the basepaths and know what to do on them.

ewokpelts
09-23-2004, 12:42 PM
And those tremendous Sox teams from the '50s and '60s went to exactly the same number of playoffs and won exactly the same number of World Series as the current group.

I'm just sayin'...If the group that had 17 STRAIGHT .500+ seasons, and quite a few of them in "first division" finishes, I'd think they'd be winning the al comedy central with ease. We tend to forget that there was ONLY ONE DIVISION back then. The sox could have won 100 games, but if the yankees won 102, they were SOL.
Gene

SpringfldFan
09-23-2004, 12:46 PM
I understand the concept of tailoring the team to the ballpark, but playing .600 ball at home is useless if you play .400 on the road. (BTW the Sox are around .550 home/.450 road this season) By saying the high OBP type guys aren't easy to get, he's just covering his behind for when he can't come up with any of those type of players in the offseason.
These are excellent points, and I don't disagree with them. However, I think there is one factor we overlook which supports value of building your team to your park. If your home is a power park, and you build a power team, you maximize your success at home, which is 50 percent of your games. However, it does not translate that you will be poorly suited for the other 50 percent and that is because some of those other parks are also power parks. Therefore, tailoring your team to your park ensures you will be at your most effective for a majority of the games at the very least. That's not to say the Sox should stockpile power at the expense of *anything* else, but it is a reason for them to focus more on power.

KingXerxes
09-23-2004, 01:01 PM
:ozzie

"We need speed and defense if we're going to compete."

:KW

"We can't have a punch and judy team in this park and expect to compete."


......and the beat goes on.

MisterB
09-23-2004, 01:15 PM
They did. A reason for that was they maxed the advantage of their home park which as we all know was a pitcher's paradise.
That being said, the '59 Sox had identical 47-30 records both at home and on the road. The beauty of good pitching and defense is that they work everywhere. The same can be said of good fundamental play and execution.

Wealz
09-23-2004, 01:28 PM
That being said, the '59 Sox had identical 47-30 records both at home and on the road. The beauty of good pitching and defense is that they work everywhere. The same can be said of good fundamental play and execution.
Well, off the top of my head, Fenway Park was the only park in the A.L. during that time that favored the hitter.

Foulke You
09-23-2004, 01:35 PM
What the White Sox need is BALANCE! They shouldn't tailor the team to all power or all pitching and defense. What they need is a balance of BOTH! Get some table setters and .OBP guys with speed and good defense, and keep some thunder in the middle of that lineup to drive them in.

It is refreshing to hear what KW said about fearing the team will turn into a collection of punch and judy hitters. You can't convert the Sox into a team made up solely of speed and defense because if you do, you are liable to have a stack of Royce Claytons in the lineup who can barely push across 1 run. On the flipside, if you build solely on power, you'll have no speed and lead the league in solo homers which is the problem we had this year. I think Kenny Williams realizes there is a need for better balance on this team but I don't think he is going to abandon the thunder in our lineup completely which in the American League, is a good thing.

MisterB
09-23-2004, 01:41 PM
Well, off the top of my head, Fenway Park was the only park in the A.L. during that time that favored the hitter.
Tiger Stadium and Municipal Stadium (K.C. A's) as well.

batmanZoSo
09-23-2004, 01:47 PM
:ozzie

"We need speed and defense if we're going to compete."

:KW

"We can't have a punch and judy team in this park and expect to compete."


......and the beat goes on.

That sums up the black and white way everyone around here looks at this situation. Look people, we haven't won anything, not even a weak division with home runs alone. We need another dimension. With better on base rates, solo shots become two and three run homers. First and second becomes first and third, doubles score runs more often. Model after the 90s Indians who had Lofton and Vizquel at the top, combining for less than 10 home runs and that team just bludgeoned other teams to death with power.

Flight #24
09-23-2004, 04:59 PM
Just wondering....

How many 'power hitters,' does a team need to compete?

Next year the Sox will have Thomas, Everett and either Lee or Konerko. Maybe both. That's around 110 - 130 home runs.

That's not enough?????

Oh I see... let's have seven 'power' guys who can't run, can't steal a base, can't execute fundamentals and will hit 200 to 250 home runs.

Yea that'll do the trick!

Lip
Call me crazy, but didn't KW exactly say that he WANTS MORE OBP????

All he's saying is that he's not going to trade/dump the majority of the power to transition to a speedy, bunt & run team (i.e. deal Paulie & Lee and let Valentin go, which has been often proposed here). Yet the discussion turns to "KW wants 7 HR hitters and 2 chumps":?:

gosox41
09-24-2004, 07:59 AM
And had a hell of a lot better record didn't they. If I can't win a series I'll take an average of 92 or 93 wins per season for 17 years.

Lip
But you'll still complain. Why didn't the Sox of the 50's and 60's go out and spend more money? Too bad there wasn't an interent back them, I'd love to go back and read Lip's posts.:D:

The good old days weren't always good.


Bob

Lip Man 1
09-24-2004, 12:50 PM
Bob:

But in this case they were a HELL of a lot better then today.

White Sox baseball: Treadmill to nowhere...

Lip

jabrch
09-24-2004, 12:57 PM
Bob:

But in this case they were a HELL of a lot better then today.

White Sox baseball: Treadmill to nowhere...

Lip
If baseball made me as miserable as it appears to make you, I'd dump it in a heartbeat.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2004, 01:24 PM
Doesn't make me miserable Jabrch. When I was younger I'd get really pissed off at the Sox....now I just laugh at their ineptitude. But either way I've always been grounded in reality.

In your case you're off in those 'optimistic' clouds somewhere.

When are you predicting 95 wins for them next season?
:smile:

Lip

jabrch
09-24-2004, 01:58 PM
I don't recall ever predicting 95 wins. I dont recall a win prediction. (I may have done it - I just don't recall it) You seem to have me confused with someone else - I believe I thought this team was destined for 88 wins, not 95.

EDIT: (found it - Yes, I said 88 - so where is this mythical 95 that you come up with?) http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=30301&page=3&pp=15&highlight=Prediction

You may percieve it as reality, but you must know that there are a large number of people that don't percieve your persistent anti-JR, anti-Sox, anti-KW, anti-EVERYTHING rants as being grounded in any sort of reality - only in a repeatedly stingingly painful bitterness.

If consistently mad and bitter is reality, I'd have found a new hobby by now. I am disappointed, I am upset, but I'll come back out next year and cheer for whomever suits up in the uniform. I surely won't waste much energy constantly and redundantly ranting the same poo on those that we have no control about.


Doesn't make me miserable Jabrch. When I was younger I'd get really pissed off at the Sox....now I just laugh at their ineptitude. But either way I've always been grounded in reality.

In your case you're off in those 'optimistic' clouds somewhere.

When are you predicting 95 wins for them next season?
:smile:

Lip

Lip Man 1
09-24-2004, 04:05 PM
Jabrch says "If consistently mad and bitter is reality, I'd have found a new hobby by now. I am disappointed, I am upset, but I'll come back out next year and cheer for whomever suits up in the uniform. I surely won't waste much energy constantly and redundantly ranting the same poo on those that we have no control about."

Once again you miss the point...which was that you and your ilk consistently think things are going to be 'great'. 88 wins, 95 wins... doesn't matter the number. This team wasn't capable of more then 83 or 84 (which is what I said by the way) and a second place finish. How many of your ilk got totally pissed off at those who posted this was a second place team at best? You consistently fail to see the facts and look at this through 'rose colored' glasses (sort of like Bill Veeck God rest his soul.)

and as always Jabrch if my comments, or Hangar's or PHG's, or Voodoo's or Torn's bother you so much. Put us on the 'ignore' list.

See wasn't that simple...simple enough that even an 'optimist' can even comprehend it! :smile:

If you don't and get sooooooo upset by what we say then I guess you're a masochist.

"It's my life and I'll do what I want...it's my mind and I'll think what I want." -- Eric Burdon and the Animals 1965.

Lip

jabrch
09-24-2004, 04:36 PM
so you are saying Frank and Magglio aren't worth 6 games less however many of the next 10 we win? Say we go .500, the next 10 - Frank and Magglio together don't win us 1 game?


Yeah - Realist...


If Hangar's or PHG's, or Voodoo's or Torn's bother you so much. Put us on the 'ignore' list.

My ignore list is full enough with idiots who don't use logic and only talk to hear themselves speak. I don't have to agree with someone to like to read their stuff. Sometimes you make contributions that have original thought and substance to them. But the past month it seems 90% of your threads read the exact same. So maybe I should ignore you for the winter and take you back off in the summer? :D: As far as PHG, VC Hangar and TL, none of them would even come CLOSE to that list. The posts I read from them regular show analytic rigor and thought. And Hangar - in addition to putting a lot of effort into his posts (sometimes IMHO misguided) he entertains me. I don't have to agree with him to be entertianed by him.

That said, it doesn't mean I don't have a right to point out the redundancy and repetitiveness of some of the statements from some people.

Soxfest
09-24-2004, 07:04 PM
I have had enough of KW, he got a fair chance.