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View Full Version : Wilson Valdez for ROY, 2005


ondafarm
09-21-2004, 09:59 PM
His batting and fielding have both been solid, he comes with the right attitude and although I doubt he'll put up Valentin's HR numbers, how important are HRs from your shortstop? To me, not very.

I like Jose, but Wilson is a definate upgrade.

OEO Magglio
09-21-2004, 10:03 PM
His batting and fielding have both been solid, he comes with the right attitude and although I doubt he'll put up Valentin's HR numbers, how important are HRs from your shortstop? To me, not very.

I like Jose, but Wilson is a definate upgrade.
Valdez won't be a starter.

Soxzilla
09-21-2004, 10:30 PM
I didn't think it was possible. But he has caused more runs in less games than koch did this season.

The curse of koch continues.

ondafarm
09-22-2004, 07:56 AM
Valdez won't be a starter.
I disagree. I think he'll get plenty of starts, but won't be the only guy to play shortstop. He'll certainly be the primary guy against lefties, but Uribe may get a lot of the starts against righties.

Against lefties, Crede-Valdez-Uribe-Thomas(?)

Against righties, C/U- U/V-Harris-Gload

infield 3b to 1B

SEALgep
09-22-2004, 08:28 AM
I disagree. I think he'll get plenty of starts, but won't be the only guy to play shortstop. He'll certainly be the primary guy against lefties, but Uribe may get a lot of the starts against righties.

Against lefties, Crede-Valdez-Uribe-Thomas(?)

Against righties, C/U- U/V-Harris-Gload

infield 3b to 1BI think Ozzie is going to avoid switching the infield every other day. This year was different, because we had Valentin and hot swinging Uribe. Valentin will be gone, so now we should have a SS and Valdez used mostly as a utility man IMO, but we'll see.

wdelaney72
09-22-2004, 08:50 AM
Thomas will not be playing 1B on a regular basis. That's just not going to happen. Jose is gone without any doubt. There will be at a minimum, one FA signed for the infield. Which position that is, I don't know. No matter what, a compromise will have to be made. I can live with Uribe starting every day, it's just a matter of which position they fill through FA. History would tell me they're not ready to give up on Crede, but there's actually a few FA to sign at 3B. There are also a few SS available. 2B seems to be the thinnest on the FA market. One possibility might be...

3B - FA
SS - Valdez
2B - Uribe
1B - Gload

Paulie will be tradeed. He's got $$ value and will be on a contract year. This infield is by no means putting them in the playoffs, but it's a step in a better direction. They just can't (won't) address all of the IF needs in one season. I'd rather they sign only 1 infiield position and concentrate on SP and Bullpen help. As w've seen lately, even our "studs" have been less than seviceable. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Judy Garland moved. Isn't he set to make $4 million next year? That's a lot to pay a #5 SP who has no balls and S*** for brains.

faneidde
09-22-2004, 10:20 AM
Paulie will be tradeed. I hope you're wrong. This would be a horrible move by the organization as it would make the Sox a complete non factor and attendance would be way down, leading to a decrease in spending and the vicious cycle would continue. The Sox should keep PK, if Santana gets hurt next year and the Indians don't develop, who knows.

misty60481
09-22-2004, 10:36 AM
I agree Paulie puts people in the seats and attendance going down means less to spend on payroll you know JR watches the bottom line.....

ondafarm
09-22-2004, 11:11 AM
I think PK will be traded, his market value is just too great and his position will be handed most of the time to Gload. I think Thomas will get some starts at 1B, not a lot. I think Burke might actually get a few or someone else on the team will get a few against tough lefties.

Valentin is gone. I like Jose, but the handwriting is on the wall.

I don't think the Sox will sign an IF free agent. I think the group they (will) have will play good Ozzie (small) ball. Good defense, get on base and let the big guys drive you in. Hey, it works for Oakland.

Crede? They are not ready to give up on him, yet.

Yorke97
09-22-2004, 11:21 AM
I hope that Paulie gets traded. Everytime he hits another homer, his trade value skyrockets. Look at how well the Brewers did last off season by unloading Sexson. They got SIX players in return for someone who can only hit HRs (sound familiar?). Anytime a team can get that many players from one stud, they're better off. Who really cares about attendance and PR? If the team is good and has a better chance to win, I for one am all for it.

JB98
09-22-2004, 11:46 AM
I hope that Paulie gets traded. Everytime he hits another homer, his trade value skyrockets. Look at how well the Brewers did last off season by unloading Sexson. They got SIX players in return for someone who can only hit HRs (sound familiar?). Anytime a team can get that many players from one stud, they're better off. Who really cares about attendance and PR? If the team is good and has a better chance to win, I for one am all for it.
The Brewers did get six players for Sexson, and their record is 63-86. Please explain to me how they are better off because of that trade.

wdelaney72
09-22-2004, 11:53 AM
Paulie is a great player, but he does not put people in the seats.

Winning puts people in the seats.

It's not that I want Paulie traded, I don't. But his value is high and he'll be on a contract year.

mdep524
09-22-2004, 11:57 AM
Paulie is a great player, but he does not put people in the seats.

Winning puts people in the seats.

It's not that I want Paulie traded, I don't. But his value is high and he'll be on a contract year.
Agreed. People who thinks Paulie puts people in the seats are just fooling themselves.

Tekijawa
09-22-2004, 12:21 PM
Paulie is a great player, but he does not put people in the seats.

Winning puts people in the seats.
How Ironic You mention this...

We reached our peak for the season at attendance being over 20% over last year at our 38th home game... That was durring the Cubs Series in June. we hovered around 15% until Hunter Ran over Burke at home around the 50th game and have spiraled downward since... Last I checked Paulie was on the team the Whole time... Why the Drop off?

http://slam.canoe.ca/StatsBBA/BC-BBA-STAT-CHWHITESOXATTCOMP-R.html

Paulie Doesn't put Buts in seats, Buehrle Doesn't put buts in seats, Alomar and Everett Don't put Buts in seats... the only thing that does that is W's.

fquaye149
09-22-2004, 12:47 PM
The Brewers did get six players for Sexson, and their record is 63-86. Please explain to me how they are better off because of that trade.
oh brother - because the brewers have problems throughout their lineup they weren't better off with counsell, spivey, OVERBAY, and moeller instead of an injured Richie Sexson?


this is poor logic. Tom Glavine is a worthless player because the Mets are going to finish last by your reasoning.

ondafarm
09-22-2004, 12:54 PM
Paulie is a great player, but he does not put people in the seats.

Winning puts people in the seats.

It's not that I want Paulie traded, I don't. But his value is high and he'll be on a contract year.
I agree.

balke
09-22-2004, 12:57 PM
oh brother - because the brewers have problems throughout their lineup they weren't better off with counsell, spivey, OVERBAY, and moeller instead of an injured Richie Sexson?


this is poor logic. Tom Glavine is a worthless player because the Mets are going to finish last by your reasoning.
Brewers cleaned house with that trade. All those pickups either have potential, or are already pulling thier weight. That was the toughest division in baseball.

JB98
09-22-2004, 05:33 PM
oh brother - because the brewers have problems throughout their lineup they weren't better off with counsell, spivey, OVERBAY, and moeller instead of an injured Richie Sexson?


this is poor logic. Tom Glavine is a worthless player because the Mets are going to finish last by your reasoning.
Brewers last year with Sexson: Last-place team
Brewers this year with Counsell, Spivey, Overbay and Moeller: Last-place team

The Brewers saved themselves some $$$$ with this trade. They did not improve the quality of the product on the field. In fact, they are one of the most inept offensive teams in baseball.

All I'm saying is, trading Konerko for multiple players won't necessarily make us a better team, as some here suggest. Trading Sexson didn't make the Brewers better, so I don't think that's a very good example to use as an argument for why PK should be traded.

I don't understand your Glavine reference at all.

nodiggity59
09-22-2004, 05:43 PM
Brewers last year with Sexson: Last-place team
Brewers this year with Counsell, Spivey, Overbay and Moeller: Last-place team

True, but you also must consider that they were the last place team in the easiest division in 2003 and are last in the toughest division of 2004.

Tragg
09-22-2004, 06:00 PM
True, but you also must consider that they were the last place team in the easiest division in 2003 and are last in the toughest division of 2004.
Konerko is a better hitter and ballplayer than Sexon- he should bring more.

bartmanisgod
09-22-2004, 06:04 PM
Konerko is a better hitter and ballplayer than Sexon- he should bring more.
Hey whatever you are smoking please send some my way! Thanks!

faneidde
09-22-2004, 06:06 PM
Konerko is a better hitter and ballplayer than Sexon- he should bring more. No way we get more for PK that Milwaukee got for Sexson. Arizona is horrible this year because they gave away the farm for an average player.
Also, if the Sox trade PK, it would signal a rebuilding process in my mind. If we rebuild, we don't win. Therefore, PK=W's

maurice
09-22-2004, 06:08 PM
Konerko is a better hitter and ballplayer than Sexon
Hmmm . . .

Konerko career: 3379 AB, .279 AVE , .345 OBP, .483 SLG, .828 OPS, 169 HR, 585 RBI
Sexson career: 3065 AB, .271 AVE , .349 OBP, .528 SLG, .877 OPS, 200 HR, 616 RBI

thepaulbowski
09-22-2004, 06:12 PM
Hmmm . . .

Konerko career: 3379 AB, .279 AVE , .345 OBP, .483 SLG, .828 OPS, 169 HR, 585 RBI
Sexson career: 3065 AB, .271 AVE , .349 OBP, .528 SLG, .877 OPS, 200 HR, 616 RBI
Stats don't mean anything.....:D:

thepaulbowski
09-22-2004, 06:14 PM
Brewers last year with Sexson: Last-place team
Brewers this year with Counsell, Spivey, Overbay and Moeller: Last-place team

The Brewers saved themselves some $$$$ with this trade. They did not improve the quality of the product on the field. In fact, they are one of the most inept offensive teams in baseball.

All I'm saying is, trading Konerko for multiple players won't necessarily make us a better team, as some here suggest. Trading Sexson didn't make the Brewers better, so I don't think that's a very good example to use as an argument for why PK should be traded.
The Brewers saved money and got future prospects. Delayed gratification.

AddisonStSox
09-22-2004, 06:15 PM
Brewers last year with Sexson: Last-place team
Brewers this year with Counsell, Spivey, Overbay and Moeller: Last-place team

The Brewers saved themselves some $$$$ with this trade. They did not improve the quality of the product on the field. In fact, they are one of the most inept offensive teams in baseball.

All I'm saying is, trading Konerko for multiple players won't necessarily make us a better team, as some here suggest. Trading Sexson didn't make the Brewers better, so I don't think that's a very good example to use as an argument for why PK should be traded.

I don't understand your Glavine reference at all.
You sound like a certain someone I know...wait...wait a minute?

:KW Kenny is that you?

Anyone that doesn't see that the BrewCrew ripped off the Diamonbacks is...well...I dunno, but they did. If we got anything close to what the Brewers got for Sexon, I'd put KW up for GM of the year.

fquaye149
09-22-2004, 07:48 PM
Brewers last year with Sexson: Last-place team
Brewers this year with Counsell, Spivey, Overbay and Moeller: Last-place team

The Brewers saved themselves some $$$$ with this trade. They did not improve the quality of the product on the field. In fact, they are one of the most inept offensive teams in baseball.

All I'm saying is, trading Konerko for multiple players won't necessarily make us a better team, as some here suggest. Trading Sexson didn't make the Brewers better, so I don't think that's a very good example to use as an argument for why PK should be traded.

I don't understand your Glavine reference at all. ok well see if you can follow this:

there are certain teams that will be last place teams no matter how much they upgrade - the tigers bumped up big time adding urbina, guillen, i-rod, etc. and if it weren't for the ineptitude of the royals they would have still been a last place team.

if you couldn't see in mid june that the brewers were a better team (and more cost-efficient one) because of the trade, you were watching a different sport. Just because a team finishes in the same spot doesn't mean they're not a better team.

Look at the flip side of the coin: we'll finish second again this year, but is the team taking the field everyday as good as the one taking the field at the end of last year? no!

yes, the brewers didn't save the franchise by making a hugely successful trade, but a team like us which is within smelling distance (barely), if we could make a trade as successful as that and open up payroll it CAN make a difference in the standings.

Gosox1917
09-22-2004, 07:51 PM
The Brewers did get six players for Sexson, and their record is 63-86. Please explain to me how they are better off because of that trade.
The rest of the Brewers lineup wasn't very good and they really have little consistant pitching besides Ben Sheets. They have improved from last year's record and were around .500 the first four months of the year. If the Sox trade PK I expect them to not only get a quality pitcher but a replacement at first base. I don't think Gload will be an adequate replacement at first base. We complain about the DP's PK grounds into. While Paul has 22GDP/522 AB, Gload has 7GDP/ in just 193 AB's. And, while Gload's avg. is higher, I don't think it'll stay very high over the course of a full season.

AddisonStSox
09-22-2004, 08:30 PM
ok well see if you can follow this:

there are certain teams that will be last place teams no matter how much they upgrade - the tigers bumped up big time adding urbina, guillen, i-rod, etc. and if it weren't for the ineptitude of the royals they would have still been a last place team.

if you couldn't see in mid june that the brewers were a better team (and more cost-efficient one) because of the trade, you were watching a different sport. Just because a team finishes in the same spot doesn't mean they're not a better team.

Look at the flip side of the coin: we'll finish second again this year, but is the team taking the field everyday as good as the one taking the field at the end of last year? no!

yes, the brewers didn't save the franchise by making a hugely successful trade, but a team like us which is within smelling distance (barely), if we could make a trade as successful as that and open up payroll it CAN make a difference in the standings.
http://www.brewers.mlb.com/mil/photo/2001_community/bernie_brewer/ph_bernie_brewer_288.jpg TAKE THAT!!!

MRKARNO
09-22-2004, 08:50 PM
The Brewers did get six players for Sexson, and their record is 63-86. Please explain to me how they are better off because of that trade. OK, let me explain using VORP

Brewers Receive:

Chad Moeller -9.6
Lyle Overbay 44.9
Junior Spivey 14.1
Jorge de La Rosa -3.5
Craig Counsell 4.4
Chris Capuano 1.9

Total Value over Replacement players: 52.2

Diamondbacks receive:

Richie Sexson 6.6
Shane Nance -.6

Total Value over Replacement players: 6

Sexson's 2003 VORP: 58.3

So the Brewers quite clearly made out well in this deal. They have a total of 6 players and one of them, Overbay, has turned in a great season this year, and were he able to repeat, they would have one of the better first basemen in baseball on their hands. The Diamondbacks had about 1.5 months of Sexson and that's it. The Brewers took 6 players in the deal, so it's much less likely that the deal could end up for them like it did for the Diamonbacks. Even if Sexson was healthy, the Brewers would have come out about even in the deal which makes it an easy risk to take for them. The Brewers filled some holes and were a lot more competitve then they would have been otherwise. Had they been stuck with nothing like the DIamondbacks were, they probably would be one of the worst teams in baseball right now, down there with Arizona (coincidentally) and we would be talking about Arizona's bad, but not horrible season.

Mohoney
09-22-2004, 09:08 PM
I don't know what everybody thinks we are going to get for Konerko, but it won't be anywhere close to what the Brewers got. In fact, that Sexson trade might turn around and screw us over when everybody sits back and contemplates just how badly Arizona got the shaft.

We're better off keeping Konerko. Even if he hits only 30 homers next year instead of 40, he will still drive in over 100 runs and hit over .300 with RISP.

You have to absolutely floor me to get me to move one of the few proven run producers I have left after Magglio's departure.

Yorke97
09-23-2004, 12:12 AM
Also, if the Sox trade PK, it would signal a rebuilding process in my mind. If we rebuild, we don't win. Therefore, PK=W's
Are you suggesting that we want to build around this existing group of players? Not rebuilding = White Sox Laughing Stock of the American League

mrwag
09-23-2004, 09:29 AM
We've had 4 years of this underachieving team. We have enough history to prove it - this team needs to be rebuilt. Paulie can be used to fill some holes, so long as the right deal is made. I like the guy and enjoy watching him, but I'm really wanting to see baseball in October on the south side and if that means moving Konerko and his 40 home runs, then so be it.

We have too many holes, and it's brutally obvious that we can't always hit enough to cover up the holes. The team's hitting is too streaky, and when they don't hit we still need to catch the ball, pitch the ball, and make the plays. They can't do that today.

Been good knowing you Paul.

Ol' No. 2
09-23-2004, 10:38 AM
OK, let me explain using VORP, etc. etc.Very good analysis, but there's one crucial difference between the Brewers and D-backs and the Sox. Both the Brewers and D-backs are last place teams. When you're in last place, it's because you have LOTS of holes, and you need LOTS of players to improve. One good player, no matter how good, isn't going to make that much of a difference. Even if Sexon had remained healthy all year, the D-backs wouldn't have been much better off.

The Sox are in a completely different situation. They're not a last place team. Had Thomas and Ordonez remained healthy, they would have won a lot more games. (You can argue about how many and whether it would have been enough, but that's not really the point.) What they need is a few key upgrades, not a bunch of players. To my mind, it only makes sense to trade Konerko (or Lee, for that matter) for a stud pitcher who will make a big impact.

JB98
09-23-2004, 11:39 AM
You guys have failed to change my mind. Counsell is hitting .237 with no power. Moeller is batting .213. Spivey has been hurt for most of the year. If those guys were on the Sox, they'd be candidates for WSI tar-and-feathering. Everyone would be criticizing the GM for getting little value in exchange for a slugger. Yeah, Overbay's had a big year, but he doesn't produce runs the way Sexson did. The Brewers are no better off than they were last year when Choice was playing SS and Eddie Perez was catching.

Of course, it was a bad trade for Arizona because Sexson got hurt. It wasn't a stellar trade for the Brewers either, other than the fact that they saved money.

faneidde
09-23-2004, 01:25 PM
Are you suggesting that we want to build around this existing group of players? Not rebuilding = White Sox Laughing Stock of the American LeagueAre you out of your mind? The Sox might not be great if they keep their current core, but exactly how will getting Frank Thomas back and losing JoKe Valentin turn us into the laughingstock of the AL. Lee, Rowand and Everett in the outfiled, Crede, Uribe, Harris and Konerko in the infield, the Hurt as DH and a solid staff. That's not enough to beat the Twins, but unlike your post, its not a laughingstock.

ondafarm
09-26-2004, 04:33 PM
As Valdez gets more games under his belt, I'm liking him more and more. I think he will get a lot of duty next year. The Sox may abandon Crede which would force Valdez, Harris and Uribe into everyday roles. I think Crede can still be productive, but I don't know if the Sox do. Jose is gone as is Sandy Alomar. I believe Paulie will be traded, he's definately being showcased this year.

nitetrain8601
09-26-2004, 06:06 PM
You guys have failed to change my mind. Counsell is hitting .237 with no power. Moeller is batting .213. Spivey has been hurt for most of the year. If those guys were on the Sox, they'd be candidates for WSI tar-and-feathering. Everyone would be criticizing the GM for getting little value in exchange for a slugger. Yeah, Overbay's had a big year, but he doesn't produce runs the way Sexson did. The Brewers are no better off than they were last year when Choice was playing SS and Eddie Perez was catching.

Of course, it was a bad trade for Arizona because Sexson got hurt. It wasn't a stellar trade for the Brewers either, other than the fact that they saved money.
The Sox don't need guys who will get a bunch of RBI's. They need guys with high averages and OBP%'s. It seems like you're a fan of the corpse ball. I mean I like HR's, but this lineup does need to be balanced out. As far as the deal I think the Brewers got the better end because Spivey is a really good young player and Lyle is fantastic. The thing is I would trade PK for a Chone Figgins and a very nice pitcher.

ondafarm
09-26-2004, 08:17 PM
The Sox don't need guys who will get a bunch of RBI's. They need guys with high averages and OBP%'s. It seems like you're a fan of the corpse ball. I mean I like HR's, but this lineup does need to be balanced out. As far as the deal I think the Brewers got the better end because Spivey is a really good young player and Lyle is fantastic. The thing is I would trade PK for a Chone Figgins and a very nice pitcher.
I'd do that trade in a minute, but the question is would Billy Beane?

SOXSINCE'70
09-26-2004, 09:38 PM
Valdez is nice.

However,Omar Vizquel or Orlando Cabrera
would be better options.:cool: :cool:

AddisonStSox
09-26-2004, 09:56 PM
I'd do that trade in a minute, but the question is would Billy Beane?
I don't think Billy Beane would have much of a say in things...he is the GM for the A's.

ondafarm
09-27-2004, 05:21 PM
I don't think Billy Beane would have much of a say in things...he is the GM for the A's.
Point taken!!

ondafarm
10-28-2004, 07:57 PM
If there is one position that I trust Ozzie Guillen's judgement at it is SS. He loves Valdez. If he has a decent ST, he'll be playing early and often.

kittle42
10-29-2004, 12:20 AM
If there is one position that I trust Ozzie Guillen's judgement at it is SS. He loves Valdez. If he has a decent ST, he'll be playing early and often.
Yuck.

jordan23ventura
10-29-2004, 12:35 AM
The Brewers did get six players for Sexson, and their record is 63-86. Please explain to me how they are better off because of that trade.
This is the dumbest thing I've ever read.

When a team has several HUGE holes and a payroll that makes us look like the Yankees, you take what you can get, and you build a better team by great moves like this one.