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Etownsox13
09-21-2004, 01:38 PM
After watching another Sox season go down the toilet, it is becoming apparent that the Sox need a philosophy as an organization much like winning teams such as the A's the Twins and the Braves have done. They consistantly win because all of theri players are parts of a baseball plan, and have been taught the same philosophy all through their pro careers. Ozzieball is such a load. I like the start that we have for next year with the pitching, but if you build around pitching, then you need the defense to back it up (esspecially up the middle) any other thoughts?

kittle42
09-21-2004, 02:41 PM
I have a thought - spend some friggin' money.

Baby Fisk
09-21-2004, 02:49 PM
The organizational philosophy needs to take into account that the home team is now playing in US Cellular Launching Pad. Relying on arms alone will get us nowhere (eg. last night's result, Buerhle vs Minnesota). If some armchair GMs had their way, we would trade Konerko and Lee for arms, wave bye-bye to Maggs and spend the cash on arms, and rest our entire offense on the massive shoulders of The Big Hurt (which, no offense to the big guy and future HOFer, is too much to ask of a DH coming back from injury).

batmanZoSo
09-21-2004, 02:57 PM
The organizational philosophy needs to take into account that the home team is now playing in US Cellular Launching Pad. Relying on arms alone will get us nowhere (eg. last night's result, Buerhle vs Minnesota). If some armchair GMs had their way, we would trade Konerko and Lee for arms, wave bye-bye to Maggs and spend the cash on arms, and rest our entire offense on the massive shoulders of The Big Hurt (which, no offense to the big guy and future HOFer, is too much to ask of a DH coming back from injury).

What are we supposed to do, not improve the pitching? I don't care where you play, that's number one. And the idea of trading a guy like Konerko and letting Maggs go is so you can get pitchers and a leadoff hitter and maybe a left handed hitter who can hit for a high average. You probably score more runs that way because of better consistency and a more well rounded attack.

Baby Fisk
09-21-2004, 03:03 PM
What are we supposed to do, not improve the pitching? I don't care where you play, that's number one. And the idea of trading a guy like Konerko and letting Maggs go is so you can get pitchers and a leadoff hitter and maybe a left handed hitter who can hit for a high average. You probably score more runs that way because of better consistency and a more well rounded attack.I'm not arguing the need for balance. What I'm dreading is the thought of losing a bunch of 3-1 or 4-2 games all next season because we become unable to take advantage of playing in a bandbox for the sake of arms. Of course, money is the answer. Seeing none forthcoming, Kenny is going to have to use his wits and cunning (!) to land arms while not depleting the batting order. Best of luck to him...

wdelaney72
09-21-2004, 03:50 PM
I'm not arguing the need for balance. What I'm dreading is the thought of losing a bunch of 3-1 or 4-2 games all next season because we become unable to take advantage of playing in a bandbox for the sake of arms. Of course, money is the answer. Seeing none forthcoming, Kenny is going to have to use his wits and cunning (!) to land arms while not depleting the batting order. Best of luck to him...
Again, see Twins and Marlins payroll.

The Sox should be more concerned with HOW their spending their money.

eriqjaffe
09-21-2004, 03:51 PM
Oh, the White Sox have a philosophy, all right.

It involves swinging for the fences all the time.

It hasn't worked out too well, so far.

KingXerxes
09-21-2004, 03:59 PM
They need depth. I know this sounds like a luxury, but the White Sox aren't deep enough to compete at this point, let alone contend. I don't think there is a single player who can put them over at this point - so quit looking for him. Shore up the now rancid bullpen, and sign some "middle of the road" depth and try to make a go of it next year and hope some of the youngsters (Harris, Crede, Rowand) grow into decent players. Then, if that has happened over the course of 2005, go out and sign the guy or two who will put you over.

I really don't think the White Sox are going to be all that competitive next year. That being the case, start building organizational depth.

:KW

"No way man.......no way. I'm signing Valentin to a three year extension......with him and Everett out there for 162 games in 2005 I don't think we'll lose more than 11 or 12 games."

:hawk

"Yessir, I am dadgummed excited about having Carl Everett for 2005.......and we'll have him for the entire year."

Lip Man 1
09-21-2004, 05:22 PM
Either act like a 'major market' team and spend some friggin' money or be a 'small market' team. Which means scouting and development...which means firing the clowns the Sox have now in that department and hiring the best in baseball.


Either way the Sox have to do something they despise doing...spending a lot of money since the top scouts do not come cheap.

Lip

GiveMeSox
09-21-2004, 05:45 PM
After watching another Sox season go down the toilet, it is becoming apparent that the Sox need a philosophy as an organization much like winning teams such as the A's the Twins and the Braves have done. They consistantly win because all of theri players are parts of a baseball plan, and have been taught the same philosophy all through their pro careers. Ozzieball is such a load. I like the start that we have for next year with the pitching, but if you build around pitching, then you need the defense to back it up (esspecially up the middle) any other thoughts?
You might have hit it on the nose. We have needed a philisohpy for years now. Since the Shueler era fell apart with free agenct and the sox in the middle of budget woes every year. The whole we will slug it out, and slug out our mistakes and high era is over. The new philosphy is Ozzieball, and its long overdue. The way teams with low to mid budget's win is with a philsophy just like Ozzieball. Build on speed, pitching and defense, not slugging and hr's. Have your 1-9 hitters have high obs, speed, can bunt, and can hit situationally. Something the sox need but dont yet have. Look for this to be a good thing. Unfortunatly it takes time and effort. We are building here no matter what they say. Thats why Ozzie was brought in. Get ready for the real Ozzieball era, i do beleive he will be here to build a new team for the Sox beginning in 2005, hopefully the sox will be the new A's/ Twins dyanasy for the next years to come.

RichFitztightly
09-21-2004, 06:00 PM
You might have hit it on the nose. We have needed a philisohpy for years now. Since the Shueler era fell apart with free agenct and the sox in the middle of budget woes every year. The whole we will slug it out, and slug out our mistakes and high era is over. The new philosphy is Ozzieball, and its long overdue. The way teams with low to mid budget's win is with a philsophy just like Ozzieball. Build on speed, pitching and defense, not slugging and hr's. Have your 1-9 hitters have high obs, speed, can bunt, and can hit situationally. Something the sox need but dont yet have. Look for this to be a good thing. Unfortunatly it takes time and effort. We are building here no matter what they say. Thats why Ozzie was brought in. Get ready for the real Ozzieball era, i do beleive he will be here to build a new team for the Sox beginning in 2005, hopefully the sox will be the new A's/ Twins dyanasy for the next years to come.
I agree, but we need at least one or two guys with 30-40 homerun potential. We have that we can be dominant.

Foulke29
09-21-2004, 06:04 PM
After watching another Sox season go down the toilet, it is becoming apparent that the Sox need a philosophy as an organization much like winning teams such as the A's the Twins and the Braves have done. They consistantly win because all of theri players are parts of a baseball plan, and have been taught the same philosophy all through their pro careers. Ozzieball is such a load. I like the start that we have for next year with the pitching, but if you build around pitching, then you need the defense to back it up (esspecially up the middle) any other thoughts?
One problem that I see is that we have quite a few guys that give up the HR ball. With this type of park, we need pitchers that can keep the ball on the ground or induce the pop-up.

You know what else we don't have that we've missed for 3 years? We're missing the pitcher that goes out there and throws a first pitch strike. When we were winning in 2000, it's not as though we had guys that blew away every batter they faced, but they got ahead in counts by throwing the first pitch strike.

Ol' No. 2
09-21-2004, 07:01 PM
You might have hit it on the nose. We have needed a philisohpy for years now. Since the Shueler era fell apart with free agenct and the sox in the middle of budget woes every year. The whole we will slug it out, and slug out our mistakes and high era is over. The new philosphy is Ozzieball, and its long overdue. The way teams with low to mid budget's win is with a philsophy just like Ozzieball. Build on speed, pitching and defense, not slugging and hr's. Have your 1-9 hitters have high obs, speed, can bunt, and can hit situationally. Something the sox need but dont yet have. Look for this to be a good thing. Unfortunatly it takes time and effort. We are building here no matter what they say. Thats why Ozzie was brought in. Get ready for the real Ozzieball era, i do beleive he will be here to build a new team for the Sox beginning in 2005, hopefully the sox will be the new A's/ Twins dyanasy for the next years to come.The Sox are near the top of the AL in BA with RISP, and near the bottom in AB with RISP. That's a bad combination. But reversing it is NOT the solution. The lack of top-of-the-order production has been a glaring weakness since 2000, but it doesn't do much good to have all high-OBP guys and no one driving them in. Especially in Comiskey (I will NOT say that other name.) They need a solid leadoff hitter, but if they trade away both Lee and Konerko, who's going to drive him in, Ross Gload? Timo Perez? Like it or not, you have to build the team to suit the park you play half your games in.

Given the need for pitching help, it's unlikely that the Sox can fill all their needs in the FA market - there just isn't the money available, even with Maggs' $14M freed up. They're probably going to have to make some trades, and they're not going to get the calibre of player they want in exchange for Joe Crede. Realistically, it's likely either Lee OR Konerko will have to go, but I wouldn't trade both. Maybe Kenny can pull a Hendry-like move and get the player he wants for a bunch of spare parts, but with no trading deadline looming, it's not likely.

Lip Man 1
09-21-2004, 07:23 PM
You can solve the 'ballpark factor' by assembling the best pitching staff in baseball or at least in the American League, comprised of nothing but strike out / ground ball guys.

However like in the other scenarios I described, getting outstanding pitching costs money...the Sox claim they don't have it.

Until that 'philosophy' changes the treadmill to nowhere will continue no matter who the G.M. or field manager is.

Lip

Wealz
09-21-2004, 07:28 PM
You can solve the 'ballpark factor' by assembling the best pitching staff in baseball or at least in the American League, comprised of nothing but strike out / ground ball guys.

However like in the other scenarios I described, getting outstanding pitching costs money...the Sox claim they don't have it.

Until that 'philosophy' changes the treadmill to nowhere will continue no matter who the G.M. or field manager is.

Lip
What about the Twins though? They aren't outspending anyone.

Lip Man 1
09-21-2004, 11:14 PM
They have the best scouting / development staff in baseball. They make sure their top minor league prospects spend literally years on the farm learning their trades. Hunter for example had almost 2,000 minor league at bats.

That's how you win without spending a lot of money. Do the Sox have top quality scouts / developmental people? Afraid not. So if they are a 'small market' then they need to make changes there.

Lip

Tragg
09-21-2004, 11:29 PM
The lack of top-of-the-order production has been a glaring weakness since 2000, but it doesn't do much good to have all high-OBP guys and no one driving them in. Especially in Comiskey (I will NOT say that other name.) They need a solid leadoff hitter, but if they trade away both Lee and Konerko, who's going to drive him in, Ross Gload? Timo Perez? Like it or not, you have to build the team to suit the park you play half your games in.

Given the need for pitching help, it's unlikely that the Sox can fill all their needs in the FA market - there just isn't the money available, even with Maggs' $14M freed up. They're probably going to have to make some trades, and they're not going to get the calibre of player they want in exchange for Joe Crede. Realistically, it's likely either Lee OR Konerko will have to go, but I wouldn't trade both. Maybe Kenny can pull a Hendry-like move and get the player he wants for a bunch of spare parts, but with no trading deadline looming, it's not likely.I enjoyed taht post- I think I agree with everything.

dcb33
09-22-2004, 12:00 AM
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Given the need for pitching help, it's unlikely that the Sox can fill all their needs in the FA market - there just isn't the money available, even with Maggs' $14M freed up. That money has already been spent on Garcia and Contreras. It's scary because if you factor in pay raises as well we're pretty much committed to what we spent this year, and that includes money freed up from Koch's contract and Valentin's (if we don't resign him...).

All of this "philosophy" talk is foolish anyway. Our strategy is quite clear- if we get enough "grinders" to play "Ozzieball" we will dominate MLB for decades.



If Timo is a grinder, does that make Uribe a hoagie?

Ol' No. 2
09-22-2004, 01:03 AM
That money has already been spent on Garcia and Contreras. It's scary because if you factor in pay raises as well we're pretty much committed to what we spent this year, and that includes money freed up from Koch's contract and Valentin's (if we don't resign him...).My math says different.

Savings
Valentin: $5M
Koch: $7M
Loaiza: $4M
Total: $16M

New outlays
Garcia: $9M
Contreras: $6M (net with Yankees paying the rest)
Total: $15M

Unless I'm missing someone, they're pretty much a wash. What big raises are due? Garland is due $4M next year, which is another reason to launch him and replace him with someone cheaper. Another .500 pitcher shouldn't be hard to find.

dcb33
09-22-2004, 01:27 AM
My math says different.

Savings
Valentin: $5M
Koch: $7M
Loaiza: $4M
Total: $16M

New outlays
Garcia: $9M
Contreras: $6M (net with Yankees paying the rest)
Total: $15M

Unless I'm missing someone, they're pretty much a wash. What big raises are due? Garland is due $4M next year, which is another reason to launch him and replace him with someone cheaper. Another .500 pitcher shouldn't be hard to find.You need to start spending less time in the Bullpen Sports Bar and work on your math...
"Team Chemistry" Konerko is making 8 mil this year, will make 8.75 mil in '05
Frank is making 6 mil this year, will make 8 mil in '05
Buehrle is making 3.5 mil this year, will make 5.75 mil in '05
El Caballo is making 6.5 mil this year, will make 8.5 mil in '05


This means it's going to cost 7mil more next year just to keep these 4 guys around... if you add up all 6 of these contracts, that means we've already spent 46 mil of next year's payroll, and that still leaves us without a SS, RF, 2B, another SP and C. We're also gonna have to shell out some major coin to improve our pathetic excuse for a bullpen...

No one knows how much Garland will make next year because he's arbitration eligible, although your guess of a 4mil salary for him sounds about right... Either way you can't "launch" Garland just because you don't like him and thinks he sucks. If you do, then we'll have the same stupid problem we had last year and the year before that, and that's not enough starting pitching. You gotta keep Garland and plug him in as your No. 5. I really don't want to see this team parade Cotts, Munoz, Grilli, Diaz, or Schoeny every 5th day and I doubt you do too...

santo=dorf
09-22-2004, 01:36 AM
http://dugoutdollars.blogspot.com/2003_12_28_dugoutdollars_archive.html

According to that website, if we pick up Shingo's option, Politte's option, Carl uses his option, and add 6 million for Contreras, we'd be at 53.8 million. We still have to sign the many of the younger guys, and probably move Garland.

Jurr
09-22-2004, 02:44 AM
Well, number one, we find another pitcher. Pavano's name has been tossed around. Do we have the money to make a run at him? The Sox seem to always find a way to go and get a big name every offseason (Colon, Wells, etc.).

Guillen knows Pavano from his Florida days, and it could happen. That would be a start.
Then, we get a solid middle infielder, and the Vizquel thing sounds really good. A tablesetter that isn't looking for a homer, can get down a bunt, and is as good as it gets in the hole. Pair him with Uribe at second, and we're looking good. Uribe is also a solid third baseman, and we could stick him on the corner. He was solid there, and with a complete spring training and offseason at third, he could get a gold glove there.

Then, second base. The big question...can Harris take what he's learned this year and make something happen next year at second? He's getting a LOT better with the glove, and if he can get a little more consistent at the plate, we would be looking at a great 1-2 spot with Vizquel and Harris.

By trading Lee, we're looking at getting a solid but unspectacular outfielder but more importantly a bullpen guy to throw in there. We need a setup guy like people in Hell need icewater. Trading Borchard is another option. Hell, maybe winter ball will make a man out of him and he breaks out. But, we've heard that before.

I agree with keeping PK. I can deal with a GIDP from time to time, if he continues to swing the good bat. Having Paulie bat behind Frank (who is a walk-a-game candidate) would be fine.

Other than that, we're solid at CF, our depth will be better due to the kids getting some chances to play during the season (don't discount that learning experience..see 1998-1999), and I truly believe that Adkins, Cotts, Diaz, and Munoz will be solid help, if that may only mean in the bullpen. I think Adkins is going to be the best out of that group.

This team needs some tinkering (oohhh..bad word), but getting it all together may not be as drastic as we think. The core (Maggs, Lee, Valentin, Frank, PK) needs to be dismantled, but not totally dispersed.

The fans did their part, showing up when the product was good. Wasn't it the best attendance since the strike? The ballpark is more fan friendly, and if the team is fan friendly, JR will make his money.

You've gotta prime the pump.....hopefully we make the moves we need to. Maggs, Koch, Valentin.......a big hole of money we have to play with..if we do it smart, we're going to be okay.

Jurr
09-22-2004, 02:49 AM
Final thoughts:
By getting rid of Lee and getting a cheaper option, you take some of the production away but can get a better glove and a little more consistency.

Crede needs to set himself on fire on his lawn and save us the the salary space.

Garland- see Crede. He needs to go buy some gas, though, 'cause there's none in his arm.


The biggest question is, though...can the Sox actually spend the 75-80 million it would take to get this thing snowballing in a (God, dare I say) POSITIVE direction? Maybe JR will get inspired.

Man Soo Lee
09-22-2004, 03:23 AM
From the Trib (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040921soxgamer,1,2231988.story?coll=cs-home-headlines):

"You try to emphasize [speed and defense] every year. It is a lot easier said than done sometimes," Williams said.

"It is a revolving process. What I am going to choose to focus on now is pitching. We feel like we have a strong staff going into next year. And the way that Jason Grilli has come on, it makes the fifth starter spot not a dire need. He has impressed us." "But the fact of the matter is that the last 80-some-odd games, a lot of guys who were designed to come off the bench in supporting roles have had to play a lot greater roles. It is one of the things I really have to look at as far as determining where we are and what our showing this year really means." Looks like KW is already trying to lower expectations for the off-season. Grilli? Cheap, timid, and stupid will remain the organization's philosophy.

santo=dorf
09-22-2004, 04:15 AM
From the Trib (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040921soxgamer,1,2231988.story?coll=cs-home-headlines):

Looks like KW is already trying to lower expectations for the off-season. Grilli? Cheap, timid, and stupid will remain the organization's philosophy.
Would you rather have Garland getting crushed by the Twins' "B" team at 3-4 million next year?

Man Soo Lee
09-22-2004, 06:26 AM
Would you rather have Garland getting crushed by the Twins' "B" team at 3-4 million next year?
As mediocre as Garland is, I would certainly choose him over Grilli. Besides, KW's quote suggests that they might both be in the rotation, not one or the other.

wdelaney72
09-22-2004, 09:09 AM
Then, second base. The big question...can Harris take what he's learned this year and make something happen next year at second? He's getting a LOT better with the glove, and if he can get a little more consistent at the plate, we would be looking at a great 1-2 spot with Vizquel and Harris.
No, he cannot. This guy has had more opportunity than he deserves. He can't ht and with all the speed in the world, he can't steal a base.

By trading Lee... I agree with keeping PK.
Are you high???? Carlos Lee is a WAY better overall player than PK. Carlos' defense is incredibly under-rated. He stays. Period.

Hangar18
09-22-2004, 09:44 AM
Theyve been TRYING to cheapskate their way into the playoffs. Jerry Reinsdorf reminds me of Screech from "saved by the bell". Always, and goofily
trying to SNEAK into the MLB Niteclub called the Playoffs, and no matter how many Goofball Schemes and Plans he comes up with to Avoid Paying the "Cover" charge, He gets Caught, and is "Denied Entrance". The best part is .......
HE NEVER LEARNS ...........SPEND THE MONEY :angry: :angry:

Hangar18
09-22-2004, 09:54 AM
That's how you win without spending a lot of money. Do the Sox have top quality scouts / developmental people? Afraid not. So if they are a 'small market' then they need to make changes there.

Thats funny, I was in Minnesota last week, and 100% of the Twin Fans I asked, ALL THOUGHT THE SOX WERE THE BIG MARKET TEAM & THEY were
the small market team. I think this Organization needs to Admit THEY ARE BIG MARKET .......then act like it

Hangar18
09-22-2004, 10:07 AM
[QUOTE=dcb33]You need to start spending less time in the Bullpen Sports Bar and work on your math...
"Team Chemistry" Konerko is making 8 mil this year, will make 8.75 mil in '05
Frank is making 6 mil this year, will make 8 mil in '05
Buehrle is making 3.5 mil this year, will make 5.75 mil in '05
El Caballo is making 6.5 mil this year, will make 8.5 mil in '05


This means it's going to cost 7mil more next year just to keep these 4 guys around... if you add up all 6 of these contracts, that means we've already spent 46 mil of next year's payroll, and that still leaves us without a SS, RF, 2B, another SP and C. We're also gonna have to shell out some major coin to improve our pathetic excuse for a bullpen...

QUOTE]

:reinsy
"See !! Who keeps saying Im not Raising the Payroll Next Year! Im
Raising the Payroll and Im actively and fiscally being responsible at the same time!"

idseer
09-22-2004, 10:37 AM
in reply to the original post. i agree the sox need a better organizational philosophy. but it's not going to happen. because, you see, they have one that they're happy with. the current philosophy is to make a profit. and as long as that works for the owners, that philosophy will remain. play .500 ball and make money.

there should only be one goal for white sox fans and that goal hasn't changed for 20 years. ............. sell the team!

Ol' No. 2
09-22-2004, 11:34 AM
You need to start spending less time in the Bullpen Sports Bar and work on your math...
"Team Chemistry" Konerko is making 8 mil this year, will make 8.75 mil in '05
Frank is making 6 mil this year, will make 8 mil in '05
Buehrle is making 3.5 mil this year, will make 5.75 mil in '05
El Caballo is making 6.5 mil this year, will make 8.5 mil in '05


This means it's going to cost 7mil more next year just to keep these 4 guys around... if you add up all 6 of these contracts, that means we've already spent 46 mil of next year's payroll, and that still leaves us without a SS, RF, 2B, another SP and C. We're also gonna have to shell out some major coin to improve our pathetic excuse for a bullpen...

No one knows how much Garland will make next year because he's arbitration eligible, although your guess of a 4mil salary for him sounds about right... Either way you can't "launch" Garland just because you don't like him and thinks he sucks. If you do, then we'll have the same stupid problem we had last year and the year before that, and that's not enough starting pitching. You gotta keep Garland and plug him in as your No. 5. I really don't want to see this team parade Cotts, Munoz, Grilli, Diaz, or Schoeny every 5th day and I doubt you do too...The point was that the money for Garcia and Contreras is offset by the money saved by ditching Valentin, Koch and Loaiza. You can add it up different ways to use Maggs' $14M to pay for Garcia and Contreras and then you have the Valentin/Koch/Loaiza money to play with. Either way, there's money available. Having $7M in raises due is a lot less than last year. I had forgotten about Everett's $4M. The point was, though, that they're not going to be able to fill all the holes on the FA market - there just isn't enough money available. Trades will be necessary, and you can't get the calibre of player you want unless you give up a valuable player in trade.

I'm pretty sure Garland signed a 2-yr deal last year calling for $4M in 2005. While everyone here seems pretty sick of Jon Garland (me, included), he probably has more trade value than you think. He's still pretty young, and wouldn't be the first pitcher to blossom late. He's basically a .500 pitcher, and by definition, half the pitchers in the league are below-.500 pitchers, so it's a pretty sure thing that he would be an upgrade for many teams. The most likely spot would be a small-market team. Garland and Davis to Pittsburgh for Jason Kendall and cash sounds pretty good to me, and probably doable.

wdelaney72
09-22-2004, 11:54 AM
I agree, but we need at least one or two guys with 30-40 homerun potential. We have that we can be dominant.
Frank Thomas and Carlos Lee.

mdep524
09-22-2004, 12:07 PM
Garland and Davis to Pittsburgh for Jason Kendall and cash sounds pretty good to me, and probably doable.Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. :D:

Paulwny
09-22-2004, 12:23 PM
in reply to the original post. i agree the sox need a better organizational philosophy. but it's not going to happen. because, you see, they have one that they're happy with. the current philosophy is to make a profit. and as long as that works for the owners, that philosophy will remain. play .500 ball and make money.

there should only be one goal for white sox fans and that goal hasn't changed for 20 years. ............. sell the team!
Absolutely correct,
The continuation of starting the season with huge question marks (holes), then waiting till the AS break to see where the sox are in the standings and then seeing what the attendance is before addressing these holes is a recipe for failure.
The organization is happy being competative in the central div and not necessarily being competative with the rest of the AL.
Sell the damn team or spend the money.

fuzzy_patters
09-22-2004, 12:30 PM
Absolutely correct,
The continuation of starting the season with huge question marks (holes), then waiting till the AS break to see where the sox are in the standings and then seeing what the attendance is before addressing these holes is a recipe for failure.
The organization is happy being competative in the central div and not necessarily being competative with the rest of the AL.
Sell the damn team or spend the money.
Bingo! There are several problems with this philosophy. One is that you do not win as many games during the first half of the season as you would have if you had filled holes during the offseason. Another is that you tend to pay more for players in July because you have fewer options when you do not have free agents available. Therefore, you have a lot of teams competing to trade for the same player which forces you to overtrade from your farm system.

soxtalker
09-22-2004, 12:57 PM
in reply to the original post. i agree the sox need a better organizational philosophy. but it's not going to happen. because, you see, they have one that they're happy with. the current philosophy is to make a profit. and as long as that works for the owners, that philosophy will remain. play .500 ball and make money. ...


This is an oft-repeated theme, but I think that it overlooks many issues. It is true that JR doesn't want to lose money for the ownership group, but that's not a terribly unique or unexpected constraint. That still leaves a lot of room for different approaches. There's been failure here for lots of reasons. The people and organization that JR has put in place (and change very slowly) have not been able to win. Other teams with even more stringent spending constraints have.

Absolutely correct,
The continuation of starting the season with huge question marks (holes), then waiting till the AS break to see where the sox are in the standings and then seeing what the attendance is before addressing these holes is a recipe for failure.
The organization is happy being competative in the central div and not necessarily being competative with the rest of the AL.
Sell the damn team or spend the money.

Granted, they did start the season with holes. And if your point is that it would have been good if he'd done something in the off season, I agree. But didn't KW go out and make the deal with Seattle well before anyone else was ready to? (That's not precisely correct; reportedly, Seattle did call the Yankees to give them one last shot.) I actually wish that he'd waited a few weeks now. I wonder if he would have made the trade if he'd known both Frank and Maggs would be out.

batmanZoSo
09-22-2004, 01:35 PM
They need depth. I know this sounds like a luxury, but the White Sox aren't deep enough to compete at this point, let alone contend. I don't think there is a single player who can put them over at this point - so quit looking for him. Shore up the now rancid bullpen, and sign some "middle of the road" depth and try to make a go of it next year and hope some of the youngsters (Harris, Crede, Rowand) grow into decent players. Then, if that has happened over the course of 2005, go out and sign the guy or two who will put you over.

I really don't think the White Sox are going to be all that competitive next year. That being the case, start building organizational depth.

:KW

"No way man.......no way. I'm signing Valentin to a three year extension......with him and Everett out there for 162 games in 2005 I don't think we'll lose more than 11 or 12 games."

:hawk

"Yessir, I am dadgummed excited about having Carl Everett for 2005.......and we'll have him for the entire year."

I don't think anyone's thinking World Series next year but we can easily win the division with the right moves. Minnesota's never gonna get better than what they are and they're not far ahead of us at all when we're healthy. But I do agree with your general plan. We need to fix the bullpen and get a few middle of the road position players that bring to the table what we're lacking. That's the realistic plan. What we really should do is sign Beltran, retain Ordonez, sign Pavano or the best pitcher out there and go for the World Series next year. Just go for it. Either way you please the fans and attendance improves. And if you do in fact win it all, the White Sox are a huge draw and you have the money to field a 100 million dollar team. Of course this is all deep pink talk because JR would never take the initiative...either we have to show up in droves and THEN he'll spend, or we have to be in first and then he'll approve a big trade for a star player.

Hangar18
09-22-2004, 02:02 PM
Bingo! There are several problems with this philosophy. One is that you do not win as many games during the first half of the season as you would have if you had filled holes during the offseason. Another is that you tend to pay more for players in July because you have fewer options when you do not have free agents available. Therefore, you have a lot of teams competing to trade for the same player which forces you to overtrade from your farm system.
:reinsy
" um ................filling holes during the Offseason? Who the heck would do that?!! Players cost MORE in July than in December? What the F.......
Mabel, get Me ACCOUNTING ........ NOW!! And Get me Kenny too!!! "

Hangar18
09-22-2004, 02:10 PM
What we really should do is sign Beltran, retain Ordonez, sign Pavano or the best pitcher out there and go for the World Series next year. .......... we have to show up in droves and THEN he'll spend, or we have to be in first and then he'll approve a big trade for a star player.

:reinsy
"and I told You People, Show up this year, and I'll get you 2 Carl Pavanos!
Beltran you say? I'll let him live in my Castle ......Just show up people!
magglio? contract for life .....Come down, fill the place like sheep, buy things .... and I'll do it!"

Hangar18- "but jerry, were on pace for 1.9 Million this year ..... we DID show up! and You didnt Get us Good Players"

:reinsy
" .......... I err.........ummmmmm.............I ...........uhhhhhhhhhhh
Oh man, Look at the time ........Gotta Go!!" (door slams......tires squeal)

Ol' No. 2
09-22-2004, 02:58 PM
Let me start by saying I'm not a big Kenny-basher. Some moves have worked out better than others, but on balance I think he's mostly done a good (not great) job. But if there is one debilitating characteristic of the organizational philosophy it's that it's never understood that you can't build a winning team by out-slugging the competition. This, of course, will come as no shock to anyone here, but it seems to have caught our GM by surprise. For Kenny to now bemoan the current state is preposterous. It didn't get that way by accident. It was built that way by the guy in charge. For anyone who's forgotten the opening day rotation (I've tried but I can't), here it is: Buehrle, Loaiza, Garland, Schoeneweis, Wright. Five days too late for April Fools Day. On opening day I figured this team for .500 even WITH Thomas and Ordonez healthy. And it's been that way year after year. They went out and got Colon in 2003, but had they not gotten EXTREMELY lucky with Loaiza, they would have been a below .500 team last year. Before that was Todd Ritchie...enough said. When was the last time the Sox started the season with even THREE solid starters? The bullpen situation is, if possible, even worse. Every year he goes to the junkyard, backs up the truck, and hauls off a load of whatever's available. Once in a blue moon you get lucky with a Tom Gordon. Usually you get a Rick White, Mike Jackson or Cliff Politte. I don't know any team with 6 solid relievers. Usually you fill out the last spot or two with a castoff or retread of some kind. But when you're counting on one of these guys to be your primary middle relief help, disaster is inevitable.

Maybe I'm dreaming, but the noises coming from 35th and Shields lead me to think (hope) that while the rest of the baseball world has known that pitching wins for, oh, about a HUNDRED FRIKKIN' YEARS, Kenny has finally figured it out. The nucleus of Buehrle, Garcia and Contreras is the best top three the Sox have had in years. He's actually talking about going out and getting ANOTHER starter and not a 5th starter but a real, live top-drawer pitcher (be still my heart). If that thinking get applied to the bullpen, there's hope that we may see a pitching staff in 2005 that passes the "Oh, No! Please tell me that's not who I think it is warming up in the bullpen!" test.

KingXerxes
09-22-2004, 03:01 PM
I don't think anyone's thinking World Series next year but we can easily win the division with the right moves. Minnesota's never gonna get better than what they are and they're not far ahead of us at all when we're healthy.
I only see Cleveland and Detroit getting better as they gain experience. These two teams bit the bullet and are now poised to grab possession of this division in years to come (along with Minnesota). I'm afraid the White Sox's "run" is coming to an end here - with one division and a shelf full of 2nd place trophies.

From reading today's paper, Ordonez's injury may be far worse than anyone expected, and remember when Thomas gets back he will be another year older - he's only got so much in the tank. I personally wish they would break up this stale roster and go in a different direction - but I suspect they won't.

Skorch
09-22-2004, 04:53 PM
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. :D:
Alright, that made me laugh. :rolling:

idseer
09-22-2004, 11:36 PM
The nucleus of Buehrle, Garcia and Contreras is the best top three the Sox have had in years.
i think i'll wait to decide on whether contreras is a starter or not. he's looked decent for a couple starts and terrible for more. i would not put any eggs in that basket just yet.