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View Full Version : Let Frank's critics be silenced.....


NIXPIX35
09-20-2004, 11:08 PM
Let's stop making blame about what went wrong this year. We can point all we want at KW or Skipper Oz. This season slipped away when the Big Hurt slipped away. Where were we when that happened ? Seems like 1st place was a long time ago. With Frank's patience in the line-up, other players became better since they didn't have to try to take his place. The media looked for reasons to berate the greatest hitter in White Sox history. Without him in the line-up, the pressure of the media fell on everyone's shoulder, and who has bigger shoulders than Frank ? He worked the count, he got on base, and took the disrespect from everyone. When all is said and done, I'll be in line to watch his entry into Cooperstown.

Let's put it on the board in '05....Yeesssss !!!:)

Patrick134
09-20-2004, 11:11 PM
Good point. people want to make the frank /mags injuries meaningless. Thats crazy. Would Frank and Mags being there guarantee us the division ? No , we proved that the last 3 seasons. But to pretend it had nothing to do with the sox struggling is insane. If you had pencilled in these non frank/mags lineup before the season, nobody in the world would have picked the sox to finish above .500

batmanZoSo
09-20-2004, 11:32 PM
Good point. people want to make the frank /mags injuries meaningless. Thats crazy. Would Frank and Mags being there guarantee us the division ? No , we proved that the last 3 seasons. But to pretend it had nothing to do with the sox struggling is insane. If you had pencilled in these non frank/mags lineup before the season, nobody in the world would have picked the sox to finish above .500

The injuries aren't meaningless in the sense that we'd be a lot better with them. The two, Frank especially are basically the whole lineup. My contention is that you can't win like that, even if they're healthy. The supporting cast is too weak, too many strikeouts, too many pop ups...the bullpen just sucks. With Frank and Maggs healthy we would've been 88-74. And that's generous considering we're under .500 as we speak. I'm granting the Sox a 15 game difference with the two healthy. Guess what? The twins already have 88 wins.

Frank is the man there's no doubt about that. We can't win without him but we can't win with just him either. We'd be a lot better but still not good enough.

Patrick134
09-20-2004, 11:35 PM
You can't magically pick anumber of wins if they were here. A loss like the loss of those 2 affects the whole team. Guys start pressing and they hit worse...it gives teams the luxury to pitch around konerko and lee more... with les runs the bullpen is under more pressure and used more...it goes on and on. Like i said, frank and mags being healthy by no means guarranteed us the division, but we can't proport to KNOW how it would have turned out.

Lip Man 1
09-20-2004, 11:38 PM
The injuries certainly affected the team but tell me did Frank and Maggs have anything to do with the horrible 5th starter problem? How about the lack of a lead off hitter? Care to try the abysmal bullpen with such icons as Jackson, Cotts and Adkins pouring gasoline on the flames? How about the lack of production out of the catching position? or the lack of production at second base?

NONE of those things had ANYTHING to do with Frank and Maggs. This team was build on a house of cards from the very beginning. They HOPED that if things went right they'd win.

Good teams don't have to hope do they? Good teams don't have to hope they buck the odds and go through a 162 game season without injuries, slumps or a bad year from a key player in order to win something.

Lip

batmanZoSo
09-20-2004, 11:41 PM
You can't magically pick anumber of wins if they were here. A loss like the loss of those 2 affects the whole team. Guys start pressing and they hit worse...it gives teams the luxury to pitch around konerko and lee more... with les runs the bullpen is under more pressure and used more...it goes on and on. Like i said, frank and mags being healthy by no means guarranteed us the division, but we can't proport to KNOW how it would have turned out.

Well I've seen enough of the Twins and the White Sox where I have a pretty good idea of how it would've gone down no matter what the circumstances were. We just need to break the team up. Ozzie thinks so and KW seems to think so, so that's one glimmer of hope. If I had my way, Valentin, Crede, Borchard and Konerko would all be packing their bags.

Patrick134
09-20-2004, 11:42 PM
Plenty of teams have won world series with poor production at certain positions. But usually they have hitters (like frank or mags) to compensate for that. As i have repeatedly said, frank and mags wouldnt have guarranteed the division. We will never know what would have happened, good or bad.

Brian26
09-20-2004, 11:45 PM
You can't magically pick anumber of wins if they were here. A loss like the loss of those 2 affects the whole team. Guys start pressing and they hit worse...it gives teams the luxury to pitch around konerko and lee more... with les runs the bullpen is under more pressure and used more...it goes on and on. Like i said, frank and mags being healthy by no means guarranteed us the division, but we can't proport to KNOW how it would have turned out.
This is all true. You can't quanitfy how much the loss of your two best players hurt the team. Momentum plays a huge role in sports, and the loss of Frank and Mags hurt this team tremendously from a psychological standpoint.

batmanZoSo
09-20-2004, 11:49 PM
Plenty of teams have won world series with poor production at certain positions. But usually they have hitters (like frank or mags) to compenstae for that. As i have repeatedly said, frank and mags wouldnt have guarranteed the division. We will never know what would have happened, good or bad.

Okay I'll give you that. It's all true. But I don't think we were ever going to beat the Twins. That's just my own opinion. We were lucky to have the fun we did being in first for a while, beating up on the Twins and looking like we were gonna do it. To go in with that many question marks...please. And for KW and company to expect a division title? Lot of nerve on their parts.

ChiSoxBobette
09-21-2004, 07:31 AM
Well I've seen enough of the Twins and the White Sox where I have a pretty good idea of how it would've gone down no matter what the circumstances were. We just need to break the team up. Ozzie thinks so and KW seems to think so, so that's one glimmer of hope. If I had my way, Valentin, Crede, Borchard and Konerko would all be packing their bags.
I really don't know why everyone now wants Paul Konerko gone, he seems to have picked up the get rid of Frank tag. The guy has a .275/.280 average, 39 HR's & over a hundred RBI's and he plays a pretty good 1st base so why do we get rid of him?

SSN721
09-21-2004, 08:09 AM
Frank being gone had a huge psychological and OBP effect on the team. He made the players around him in the lineup better. But I dont think that his presence would have changed what has happened this year. It didnt help. But it isnt like we havent been scoring runs since the ASB. Last time I looked, which was at least a couple weeks ago, the RPG average was higher then it was prior to the ASB. I think pitching has killed us in the second half. Sub standard starting pitching, hideous bullpen have contributed much more then anything. The Twins are just better. More balanced lineup and better pitching, and that is why the SOx lost the division.

MisterB
09-21-2004, 01:05 PM
Frank being gone had a huge psychological and OBP effect on the team. He made the players around him in the lineup better. But I dont think that his presence would have changed what has happened this year. It didnt help. But it isnt like we havent been scoring runs since the ASB. Last time I looked, which was at least a couple weeks ago, the RPG average was higher then it was prior to the ASB. Umm, no.

Sox Runs/Game:

Apr - 5.43
May - 5.71
Jun - 6.28
Jul - 3.96
Aug - 5.27
Sep (thru 9/20) - 5.21

The losses of Frank and Magglio sent the offense into a tailspin in July. Granted, the pitching has been ugly for a few weeks now, but back in July the staff ERA was only 4.44. Give that staff 5+ runs per game to work with and they play well above .500 ball. And who knows, maybe KW actually deals for bullpen help in July instead of getting Everett and Alomar (again) to try to bolster an anemic offense. Trying to minimize the losses of those two players is disingenuous. It's just an attempt to ease the disappointment by essentially saying "It was fate and nothing would have made any difference." I prefer not to lie to myself that way. Would the Sox have won the division with them? Maybe yes, maybe no. But it would have been a race, and this series could have been the turning point (one way or the other) instead of the final nail in the coffin.

batmanZoSo
09-21-2004, 01:10 PM
I really don't know why everyone now wants Paul Konerko gone, he seems to have picked up the get rid of Frank tag. The guy has a .275/.280 average, 39 HR's & over a hundred RBI's and he plays a pretty good 1st base so why do we get rid of him?

He makes too much money and his 40 homers don't really help us. He's the third or arguably the fourth best hitter on this team when everyone's healthy. We need pitching, speed, a leadoff man, a shortstop a lot more than we need him. And he's having a career year, so we can get a ton for him in a trade. This is the same guy who batted .150 through June of last year. Sell high, for the love of god. We got a lucky break, take advantage of it. Trade him.

Tekijawa
09-21-2004, 01:46 PM
Frank and Maggs wouldn't have stopped Hunter from Running over Burke... That's the day the team died! The Twins sent a message with that hit and we never responded... I'm not saying beaning Hunter, I'm saying the whole season would have been different had we sucked it up and put a few runs up on the board in our half of the inning. we can cry all we want about what would have happened with Frank and Maggs in the line up but the day we turned the other cheak and decided to piss ourselves in the corner and whine and complain to any one listning about the "cheap shot" was the day we lost this division!!!

Ozzie may bring fire, but he doesn't bring a killer instinct!

balke
09-21-2004, 02:38 PM
Good point. people want to make the frank /mags injuries meaningless. Thats crazy. Would Frank and Mags being there guarantee us the division ? No , we proved that the last 3 seasons. But to pretend it had nothing to do with the sox struggling is insane. If you had pencilled in these non frank/mags lineup before the season, nobody in the world would have picked the sox to finish above .500
All I know is, a cubs sweep, and 7 straight losses to the Minnesota Twins is a LOT less likely when Frank and Maggs are playing healthy. These are 2 huge baseball studs. The wieght off of everyone's shoulders, knowing they have two of the best hitters in the league in the middle of their starting lineup every game... I think that just might have given our team an edge.

MRKARNO
09-21-2004, 02:44 PM
Umm, no.

Sox Runs/Game:

Apr - 5.43
May - 5.71
Jun - 6.28
Jul - 3.96
Aug - 5.27
Sep (thru 9/20) - 5.21

The losses of Frank and Magglio sent the offense into a tailspin in July. Granted, the pitching has been ugly for a few weeks now, but back in July the staff ERA was only 4.44. Give that staff 5+ runs per game to work with and they play well above .500 ball. And who knows, maybe KW actually deals for bullpen help in July instead of getting Everett and Alomar (again) to try to bolster an anemic offense. Trying to minimize the losses of those two players is disingenuous. It's just an attempt to ease the disappointment by essentially saying "It was fate and nothing would have made any difference." I prefer not to lie to myself that way. Would the Sox have won the division with them? Maybe yes, maybe no. But it would have been a race, and this series could have been the turning point (one way or the other) instead of the final nail in the coffin.

Very good post. The hitting got out of sync and then the pitching started to implode out of nowhere once the hitting got back on track and all of this contributed to the decline.

Ol' No. 2
09-21-2004, 02:51 PM
Frank and Maggs wouldn't have stopped Hunter from Running over Burke... That's the day the team died! The Twins sent a message with that hit and we never responded... I'm not saying beaning Hunter, I'm saying the whole season would have been different had we sucked it up and put a few runs up on the board in our half of the inning. we can cry all we want about what would have happened with Frank and Maggs in the line up but the day we turned the other cheak and decided to piss ourselves in the corner and whine and complain to any one listning about the "cheap shot" was the day we lost this division!!!

Ozzie may bring fire, but he doesn't bring a killer instinct!I beg to differ. That's not the day the team died. They'd been playing like crap for months. Perhaps you've forgotten the various eggs they laid all over the NL ballparks in June. Here's the Sox record vs. .500 by month:

April: +5
May: +4
June: -5
July: -1
Aug: -5
Sept: +1

The big dropoff occured not at the end of July, but late May/early June, coinciding nicely with the loss of Thomas and Ordonez. They didn't lose to the Twins because they lost heart, or because they lost momentum. They lost because without Thomas and Ordonez, they're a .500 baseball club at best.

With Ordonez all but out the door for next season, and Thomas another year older and more fragile, they're going to be a .500 ballclub next year, too, unless they make some changes.