PDA

View Full Version : Anybody else feel this way about the sox?


shagar69
09-20-2004, 06:57 PM
IMO if the sox dont win in 2005, i believe that they will be torn apart completely and wont be competitive until something like 2008. i honestly could see something like that happening where KW and the rest of the management feel that this team needs to completely start over. i know that it isnt like KW to do that but i feel that he will if they dont win next year. i could see the 06 sox being like the 01 indians. anybody else feel that way?

chisoxt
09-20-2004, 07:18 PM
IMO if the sox dont win in 2005, i believe that they will be torn apart completely and wont be competitive until something like 2008. i honestly could see something like that happening where KW and the rest of the management feel that this team needs to completely start over. i know that it isnt like KW to do that but i feel that he will if they dont win next year. i could see the 06 sox being like the 01 indians. anybody else feel that way?
IMO. KW should rip this catastrophe apart, now!

Jurr
09-20-2004, 07:23 PM
No...I really don't think that way. Right now, the pitching isn't focusing and they are just playing out the string. No reason to play now!
This is a good pitching staff, and with Cotts, Adkins, Diaz, and Munoz all getting maturation time, the bullpen could be very strong.
With another pitcher or two, we've got a great staff on our hands. You can win with that.
Add Thomas, Konerko, and some tablesetters, and we're talking about a team that would remind me of the 2001 Seattle Mariners. I think we could be a lot closer than it seems at this point. We just have to get a couple sound moves in place this offseason. It's going to be interesting.

Bottom line: as long as you have pitching, you'll be okay.

chisoxt
09-20-2004, 07:30 PM
No...I really don't think that way. Right now, the pitching isn't focusing and they are just playing out the string. No reason to play now!
This is a good pitching staff, and with Cotts, Adkins, Diaz, and Munoz all getting maturation time, the bullpen could be very strong.
With another pitcher or two, we've got a great staff on our hands. You can win with that.
Add Thomas, Konerko, and some tablesetters, and we're talking about a team that would remind me of the 2001 Seattle Mariners. I think we could be a lot closer than it seems at this point. We just have to get a couple sound moves in place this offseason. It's going to be interesting.

Bottom line: as long as you have pitching, you'll be okay.No way would I feel comforable with eany of these thre guys to start the season. The one with the most potential, Cotts, wasted a year by not being in the minor to learn another pitch.

Jurr
09-20-2004, 07:47 PM
No way would I feel comforable with eany of these thre guys to start the season. The one with the most potential, Cotts, wasted a year by not being in the minor to learn another pitch.
None of the guys will be starters, but they'll definitely be good in the bullpen. I am certain of it. But, what do I know....I pull impacted teeth...I don't coach.

SOXSINCE'70
09-20-2004, 07:58 PM
Some changes have to be made.A front line #1 starter,for starters:D: :cool: .

The bullpen resembles bulldung,so that needs help,too.
The left side of the infield is pourous at best.A new third baseman,
SS and 2nd sacker would be nice.

Other than that,my life is wonderful. :rolling: :rolling:

shagar69
09-20-2004, 07:59 PM
No...I really don't think that way. Right now, the pitching isn't focusing and they are just playing out the string. No reason to play now!
This is a good pitching staff, and with Cotts, Adkins, Diaz, and Munoz all getting maturation time, the bullpen could be very strong.
With another pitcher or two, we've got a great staff on our hands. You can win with that.
Add Thomas, Konerko, and some tablesetters, and we're talking about a team that would remind me of the 2001 Seattle Mariners. I think we could be a lot closer than it seems at this point. We just have to get a couple sound moves in place this offseason. It's going to be interesting.

Bottom line: as long as you have pitching, you'll be okay. how are we supposed to keep PK AND get some tablesetters?

Jurr
09-20-2004, 08:04 PM
how are we supposed to keep PK AND get some tablesetters?By trading Lee, Crede, and Garland, you can get something good.

shagar69
09-20-2004, 08:08 PM
By trading Lee, Crede, and Garland, you can get something good. no way, you trade PK over c. lee. lee is pretty good defensively and is not a base clogger

JB98
09-20-2004, 08:31 PM
how are we supposed to keep PK AND get some tablesetters?

Tablesetters don't cost that much money. Hell, St. Louis picked Womack off the scrap heap for next to nothing. Also, what good is a tablesetter if you don't have any RBI men. Look at Florida. They have two of the best tablesetters in the business, yet they won't be going back to the playoffs because they let go of I-Rod and DLee because of money. I hope the Sox don't make the same mistake. We need to keep PK.

Gosox1917
09-20-2004, 09:22 PM
IMO if the sox dont win in 2005, i believe that they will be torn apart completely and wont be competitive until something like 2008. i honestly could see something like that happening where KW and the rest of the management feel that this team needs to completely start over. i know that it isnt like KW to do that but i feel that he will if they dont win next year. i could see the 06 sox being like the 01 indians. anybody else feel that way?
If he doesn't tear it apart this off-season. This scenario will play out IF they don't win next season. But we do have good, young pitchers and some good prospects like Sweeney and Anderson that will contribute but hopefully we won't have to use them for a few years.

shagar69
09-20-2004, 09:35 PM
If he doesn't tear it apart this off-season. This scenario will play out IF they don't win next season. But we do have good, young pitchers and some good prospects like Sweeney and Anderson that will contribute but hopefully we won't have to use them for a few years.anderson wont be ready till 06 at the earliest and sweeney wont be till 07

Clembasbal
09-20-2004, 09:37 PM
The only problem I see is that KW has traded away our farm system. By rebuilding you need a farm system to do this, and we just don't have it. If this were to take place, it would not be 2008 when we came back...it would be 2013. Hey, it took the Marlins 10 years to rebuild.

Lem_Siddons
09-20-2004, 09:42 PM
-maggs-thomas=crap

IF Thomas has another good by Frank standards season left
Someone steps up for Maggs (possibly even Maggs)

A solid #4 or #5 shows up

Reload and fire away.

As far as rebuilding who's getting old?

Frank, Valentin, Shingo

Whose not getting older, just better

Lee, PK, Jose, Mark, Freddy.

We could rebuild on the fly and not be subjected to a 100 loss season.

Lip Man 1
09-20-2004, 09:57 PM
You can get evereything you need, fill all the holes, if ownership does one small thing...

Start acting like a 'major market' franchise with a payroll to match.

Thank you.

Lip

Jurr
09-20-2004, 09:59 PM
You can get evereything you need, fill all the holes, if ownership does one small thing...

Start acting like a 'major market' franchise with a payroll to match.

Thank you.

LipI like it.

Tragg
09-20-2004, 10:09 PM
The only problem I see is that KW has traded away our farm system. By rebuilding you need a farm system to do this, and we just don't have it. If this were to take place, it would not be 2008 when we came back...it would be 2013. Hey, it took the Marlins 10 years to rebuild.Except that few if any farmhands he's traded away have made any sort of impact on the MLs. So to that extent, he's done well----he got something out of the young slugs.

On the other hand, it demonstrates that our farm system hasn't been particularly productive either.

batmanZoSo
09-20-2004, 10:16 PM
The only problem I see is that KW has traded away our farm system. By rebuilding you need a farm system to do this, and we just don't have it. If this were to take place, it would not be 2008 when we came back...it would be 2013. Hey, it took the Marlins 10 years to rebuild.

Um, no. They've only been in existence for 11 years and they won TWO World Series! They went exactly 5 seasons of rebuilding and then won it all...again. During that same time frame we were broken up, rebuilt and our little wave of young prospects didn't amount to jack S###. Now we're on the verge of another re-build with an 0-3 playoff record and nothing else.

Hell in addition to rebuilding with prospects they went out and spent money on Pudge, without whom they wouldn't have even sniffed the playoffs. We would never have done that because he makes too much money (and we would've thought Olivo was the future and then still traded him away). That's why we don't win championships.

JB98
09-20-2004, 10:19 PM
You can get evereything you need, fill all the holes, if ownership does one small thing...

Start acting like a 'major market' franchise with a payroll to match.

Thank you.

Lip

Exactly. The Cubs lost 95 games in 2002, and then they turned around and won the division in 2003. Whether they win the wild card or not, they'll get 90 wins this season. Reason: They went out and signed some good players in free agency and made astute trades. We don't need a "five-year plan" to get to the top of the division. We do, however, need a stronger commitment to winning from ownership. It isn't good enough to say, "We'll see how the season goes, and if we're in contention in July, we'll try to make a trade to put us over the top. But only if the fans show up." For a change, the Sox need to use the offseason to build the team. Wouldn't it be nice to start the season without 80 million question marks for a change? This past April, I felt the Sox could win the division if about 80 "What ifs?" worked out in their favor. Obviously, it didn't work out.

Frankfan4life
09-20-2004, 10:27 PM
The only problem I see is that KW has traded away our farm system. By rebuilding you need a farm system to do this, and we just don't have it. If this were to take place, it would not be 2008 when we came back...it would be 2013. Hey, it took the Marlins 10 years to rebuild.Not to mention, the Sox have already won their one division championship for this decade.

Just a thought, but no one ever mentions the Sox as a wild card contender. This just proves how bad we are. We only hope to win the AL Central title because we're in a weak division. We should be contending to win a division title or the wild card. Barf!

batmanZoSo
09-20-2004, 10:37 PM
Not to mention, the Sox have already won their one division championship for this decade.

Just a thought, but no one ever mentions the Sox as a wild card contender. This just proves how bad we are. We only hope to win the AL Central title because we're in a weak division. We should be contending to win a division title or the wild card. Barf!

It sad that we can only hope for winning a weak division. Sadder yet that we can't do it. Even sadder that we blew our chance to take advantage of the weak division all these years because it ain't gonna be weak no more. Tigers and Indians are in the picture in 05.

Frankfan4life
09-20-2004, 11:31 PM
It sad that we can only hope for winning a weak division. Sadder yet that we can't do it. Even sadder that we blew our chance to take advantage of the weak division all these years because it ain't gonna be weak no more. Tigers and Indians are in the picture in 05.How true. We have to hope KC doesn't improve or we could be the next celler dweller.

Mohoney
09-20-2004, 11:50 PM
anderson wont be ready till 06 at the earliest and sweeney wont be till 07
If we go into a "scrap the whole project and rebuild" phase, Sweeney and Anderson will probably both see time in '06. There wouldn't be any point to keeping them down at AAA.

July 31, 2005 will answer a lot of these questions. If we're contending, we will probably keep PK and C Lee for the stretch run and just let them walk at the end of the season. If Minnesota or Cleveland is ahead comfortably, we will trade them for prospects (hopefully pitching), rebuild the farm, and bring the Andersons, Sweeneys, and McCarthys of the world up to learn at the parent level.

Mohoney
09-20-2004, 11:55 PM
Except that few if any farmhands he's traded away have made any sort of impact on the MLs. So to that extent, he's done well----he got something out of the young slugs.
Very true. The best one of the whole lot last year was Francisco, and he might be deported.

Wake me up when Andrew Salvo, Gary Majewski, or Rocky Biddle make an All-Star team. Then, I'll listen about how our farm system has been depleted by trades.

jabrch
09-21-2004, 12:07 AM
[QUOTE=Clembasbal]The only problem I see is that KW has traded away our farm system. [QUOTE]

Ah this tired old story. Who has he traded who has gone on to have success anywhere else? NOT FREAKING MUCH.

http://www.brownfido.com/DogPoopPOO1.jpg

JB98
09-21-2004, 01:05 AM
How true. We have to hope KC doesn't improve or we could be the next celler dweller.
I don't think the situation is that dire....

Aidan
09-21-2004, 01:08 AM
You can get evereything you need, fill all the holes, if ownership does one small thing...

Start acting like a 'major market' franchise with a payroll to match.

Thank you.

LipHey, guess what? Big surprise here... You need some decent attendance to raise payroll! Getting 30,000 people in the park when we win a few games is not enough.

JB98
09-21-2004, 01:11 AM
Hey, guess what? Big surprise here... You need some decent attendance to raise payroll! Getting 30,000 people in the park when we win a few games is not enough.
You've been listening to JR's company line too much. The Cell would be full if we had a legitimate contender. A good team is a prerequisite for good attendance, not the other way around.

pinwheels3530
09-21-2004, 03:11 AM
You can get evereything you need, fill all the holes, if ownership does one small thing...

Start acting like a 'major market' franchise with a payroll to match.

Thank you.

Lip


AGREED!!! THIS ORGANIZATION NEEDS TO START ACTING LIKE A CHARTER MEMBER OF THIS LEAGUE, WE ARE IN THE SECOND LARGEST MARKET IN THE AL YET WE CAN'T EVEN COMPETER IN OUR OWN DIVISION:angry: :angry: :angry: .....we do just enough to stay on top of the Indians & Tigers while getting put to shame by the Twins!!!

I am tired of going 1 for 11 on the west coast trips and getting spanked by the Yanks and Boston on national TV............The Chicago White Sox should be a powerhouse organization that competes for titles year after year, but with JR running the team making a profit for his investors will always be a priority over winning......At this years sox fest I am going to act like a Jerry Springer sox fan and.....:cuss: :cuss: :cuss: what a difference a season makes, save some of the ranting for me STEFF!!!!!!






:selljerry
"BASEBALL IS A PASSION I NEVER GOT IN IT TO MAKE MONEY!!!!!!":bs:

wdelaney72
09-21-2004, 07:52 AM
The only problem I see is that KW has traded away our farm system. By rebuilding you need a farm system to do this, and we just don't have it. If this were to take place, it would not be 2008 when we came back...it would be 2013. Hey, it took the Marlins 10 years to rebuild.
Josh Fogg, Kip Wells, Aaron Miles, Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and whoever else. Let me know when these guys that were traded win the Cy Young / MVP. KW may have traded away the farm, but I think the farm resides in a desert.

gosox41
09-21-2004, 08:20 AM
No...I really don't think that way. Right now, the pitching isn't focusing and they are just playing out the string. No reason to play now!
This is a good pitching staff, and with Cotts, Adkins, Diaz, and Munoz all getting maturation time, the bullpen could be very strong.
With another pitcher or two, we've got a great staff on our hands. You can win with that.
Add Thomas, Konerko, and some tablesetters, and we're talking about a team that would remind me of the 2001 Seattle Mariners. I think we could be a lot closer than it seems at this point. We just have to get a couple sound moves in place this offseason. It's going to be interesting.

Bottom line: as long as you have pitching, you'll be okay.

Wow. 2001 Mariners?? You are quite the optimist.


Bob

gosox41
09-21-2004, 08:21 AM
By trading Lee, Crede, and Garland, you can get something good.
I'd almost rather keep Lee over Konerko.


Bob

gosox41
09-21-2004, 08:23 AM
Um, no. They've only been in existence for 11 years and they won TWO World Series! They went exactly 5 seasons of rebuilding and then won it all...again. During that same time frame we were broken up, rebuilt and our little wave of young prospects didn't amount to jack S###. Now we're on the verge of another re-build with an 0-3 playoff record and nothing else.

Hell in addition to rebuilding with prospects they went out and spent money on Pudge, without whom they wouldn't have even sniffed the playoffs. We would never have done that because he makes too much money (and we would've thought Olivo was the future and then still traded him away). That's why we don't win championships.
The Marlins won the 2003 World Series in large part to the quick dismanlting of the 1997 championship team.


Bob

cornball
09-21-2004, 08:26 AM
Hey, guess what? Big surprise here... You need some decent attendance to raise payroll! Getting 30,000 people in the park when we win a few games is not enough.
Win and they will come. Nice to see some still believe the company line.

The topic of breaking up the team if all fails next year.......It will not happen.

First, you still have MB and Garcia under contract. Second, it is the last year of Ozzie's contract. Third you can rebound in a hurry in this game if you spend money and/or have pitching. Finally, we have tried that several times in the last 35 years, with the supposed great prospects and it didn't work ....in the W/L column or in the tix office.

soxtalker
09-21-2004, 08:58 AM
Josh Fogg, Kip Wells, Aaron Miles, Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and whoever else. Let me know when these guys that were traded win the Cy Young / MVP. KW may have traded away the farm, but I think the farm resides in a desert.

And who is responsible for that? We tend to focus on the things we can easily observe -- in the case of KW, it is his trades. But as GM, he's responsible for the entire system (organization, people, methods). Before that, he headed up the minor league system. I don't really mean to just bash KW. Smart people learn from their mistakes, and KW has shown signs of learning from the mistakes in his early trades. Is there any evidence that he is changing things in the minor league and scouting/drafting parts of the organization? (I don't know.)

alohafri
09-21-2004, 09:28 AM
IMO. KW should rip this catastrophe apart, now!
Exactly! Why wait? We have tried retooling in the past two years and it hasn't worked.
Willie Harris has shown no signs of improving.
Will someone tell me why we keep Sandy Alomar on the roster? If he has a lot to teach young catchers, make him a coach, not a player.
As much as I love Paul Konerko, he may be the only one to bring us someone. Package him with Valentin or Harris to get us some pitching.
I am willing to give Crede another half of a year to develop.

Build around guys like Rowand, Lee, Bueherle.
Keep Thomas around for another season. You still won't find a much better DH on the market.
Unfortunately, I think Maggs is done from what I have read about bone marrow edema. If he wants to sign for a year, do it, just to make sure he can go.

Baby Fisk
09-21-2004, 09:32 AM
The only problem I see is that KW has traded away our farm system.
Ah this tired old story. Who has he traded who has gone on to have success anywhere else? NOT FREAKING MUCH.

What's that you say?! Haven't you been following the Official Life And Times Of Jon Rauch Thread? :cool:

Railsplitter
09-21-2004, 10:15 AM
IMO if the sox dont win in 2005, i believe that they will be torn apart completely and wont be competitive until something like 2008. i honestly could see something like that happening where KW and the rest of the management feel that this team needs to completely start over. i know that it isnt like KW to do that but i feel that he will if they dont win next year. i could see the 06 sox being like the 01 indians. anybody else feel that way?
I unahappily agree. An unbalanced offense, shaky defense, and thin pitching staff need to be adressed and the farm system is badly depleted.

Wealz
09-21-2004, 11:39 AM
You can get evereything you need, fill all the holes, if ownership does one small thing...

Start acting like a 'major market' franchise with a payroll to match.

Thank you.

Lip
Even if this were true, do you trust Williams to spend the major market resources wisely? Nothing changes without the dismissal of Williams.

Wealz
09-21-2004, 11:43 AM
Exactly. The Cubs lost 95 games in 2002, and then they turned around and won the division in 2003. Whether they win the wild card or not, they'll get 90 wins this season. Reason: They went out and signed some good players in free agency and made astute trades.
Wood, Prior, Zambrano, and Patterson are the reasons for the Cubs success.

batmanZoSo
09-21-2004, 12:03 PM
The Marlins won the 2003 World Series in large part to the quick dismanlting of the 1997 championship team.
Bob

Everybody knows that. But in 97 they spent a lot of money to get there. If they can do it we can do it. And can you imagine the fanfair if we won the world series? This is a fair weather town for one, all the fence riders would come to our side and all the angry old bitter sox fans would come back out. Not to mention regular fans like you and me would certainly go to more games than usual. I'm not saying we'd outdraw the cubs either just to be clear. We wouldn't even need to dismantle after doing what the Marlins did in 97. They're just never going to draw but we will draw the day JR spends money on free agents and wins a world series. If not for completely collapsing this year we'd have easily made 2.2 million. And this was a year going in with low expectations and a meager season ticket base. After winning it all or even making the World Series, we'd probably have 20,000 + season ticket holders. At the very least, spending money and showing that you're trying will bring out more fans. JR will never see this.

Lip Man 1
09-21-2004, 12:23 PM
Aidrian says: " You need some decent attendance to raise payroll!"

What two million a year (in a smaller ballpark now that seats have been removed) isn't good enough for you?

Fine give me an attendence number that justifies raising payroll? I've stated that the Sox need to do this for years but they still haven't. The reasoning is simple. If they actually state a number, Sox fans might give it to them, then they are on the hook to spend the money. Which is why the Sox will NEVER give that number. It's much better for them to stay nebulous and keep blaming the fans.

Lip

wdelaney72
09-21-2004, 12:30 PM
Increased payroll not required to win. See Minnesota Twins, Florida Marlins, Oakland A's and the former champion Angels (not the current payroll).

Spending their current money more wiseley would be a nice change.


Aidrian says: " You need some decent attendance to raise payroll!"

What two million a year (in a smaller ballpark now that seats have been removed) isn't good enough for you?

Fine give me an attendence number that justifies raising payroll? I've stated that the Sox need to do this for years but they still haven't. The reasoning is simple. If they actually state a number, Sox fans might give it to them, then they are on the hook to spend the money. Which is why the Sox will NEVER give that number. It's much better for them to stay nebulous and keep blaming the fans.

Lip

soxtalker
09-21-2004, 01:32 PM
You can get evereything you need, fill all the holes, if ownership does one small thing...

Start acting like a 'major market' franchise with a payroll to match.

Thank you.

Lip

Even if this were true, do you trust Williams to spend the major market resources wisely? Nothing changes without the dismissal of Williams.

I'll echo Wealz concern, though I'd phrase (and view) it a bit differently. The NY Mets have shown how spending at the level of major market franchise doesn't guarantee success. The question I'd put is whether KW and the rest of the organization, as it is now constituted, can spend the major market resources wisely. While it would be nice if JR spent more money, I suspect that the biggest problem he has had in the past 20 years is in choosing the people within his organization. Now, there isn't an easy way to prescribe a solution (beyond the oft-touted call for JR to sell, though that's no guarantee either), but I'd at least like to see some indication that they recognize the problem and are attempting changes.

pudge
09-21-2004, 04:13 PM
Add Thomas, Konerko, and some tablesetters, and we're talking about a team that would remind me of the 2001 Seattle Mariners.
We will never be the 2001 Mariners as long as we play in US Cellular, unless they dramatically move back the fences. Safeco is a pitcher's haven.

italiancee
09-22-2004, 05:54 AM
You can get evereything you need, fill all the holes, if ownership does one small thing...

Start acting like a 'major market' franchise with a payroll to match.

Thank you.

Lip
everyone keeps saying this.but aint we ranked up in the top 4 somewhere? does anyone have a list of payrolls?

gosox41
09-22-2004, 07:49 AM
Aidrian says: " You need some decent attendance to raise payroll!"

What two million a year (in a smaller ballpark now that seats have been removed) isn't good enough for you?

Fine give me an attendence number that justifies raising payroll? I've stated that the Sox need to do this for years but they still haven't. The reasoning is simple. If they actually state a number, Sox fans might give it to them, then they are on the hook to spend the money. Which is why the Sox will NEVER give that number. It's much better for them to stay nebulous and keep blaming the fans.

Lip
Lip,
I have to ask, what are you talking about? Are you aware that the Sox raised payroll 20% form 2003 to opening day 2004 when they drew almost 2 million people? And they added salaries during the season of guys like Garcia? Does this matter at all to you? You do realize the team has raised payroll.

Add to the fact that the Sox are going to draw about what they did last year with higher ticket prices tells me that they will further raise payroll next season. I have no idea to what level but it should be higher.

But you're ingnoring the facts. And please don't come back with the 3rd largest market garbage. The issue is raising payroll. They have from 2003 to 2004. And maybe you should wait before complaining about 2005 to see what happens.


Bob

gosox41
09-22-2004, 07:54 AM
I'll echo Wealz concern, though I'd phrase (and view) it a bit differently. The NY Mets have shown how spending at the level of major market franchise doesn't guarantee success. The question I'd put is whether KW and the rest of the organization, as it is now constituted, can spend the major market resources wisely. While it would be nice if JR spent more money, I suspect that the biggest problem he has had in the past 20 years is in choosing the people within his organization. Now, there isn't an easy way to prescribe a solution (beyond the oft-touted call for JR to sell, though that's no guarantee either), but I'd at least like to see some indication that they recognize the problem and are attempting changes.
Exactly.

But people here conveniently fail to look at the facts. The fact taht the Sox have had the same or higher payroll then Minnesota the last 3 years says a lot. Or the fact that the Sox have played in by far the weakest division in baseball with an unbalanced schedule. When was the last time Detroit was above .500? Outiside of KC's hot first half last year (and it was more like a hot first 30 games) what have they done the last 4 years. What has Cleveland done the last 3 other then finish below .500.

But the Sox failed to capitialize on it while outspending those 3 weak teams and the Minnesota Twins. Spending more money is the easy solution. It's a band aid. it doesn't address the real problems with this organization: bad scouting, bad player development, bad trades, it only hides them.


Bob

Lip Man 1
09-22-2004, 12:54 PM
Bob:

Considering their payroll was below average for a team in this market size, raising it 20 million to get to 'average' doesn't impress me one bit.

And you yourself said Uncle Jerry is never going to raise the payroll to 80 / 90 million dollars so what is there to 'wait' on?

Here's something to consider Nancy Armour of the AP had a story yesterday on the Twins stating their payroll to start the season was at 54 million dollars. (53.95 to be exact)What did the Sox start the season at? 65 or so.

Not that much of a difference to me considering the market size of the Twin Cities and Chicago.

You don't like hearing about 'market size' but there is absolutely no reason other then ownership, why Chicago has to be saddled with things like a self imposed salary cap.

Let's just agree to disagree on this. You are a Reinsdorf apologist, I'm not.

Lip

batmanZoSo
09-22-2004, 01:28 PM
Increased payroll not required to win. See Minnesota Twins, Florida Marlins, Oakland A's and the former champion Angels (not the current payroll).

Spending their current money more wiseley would be a nice change.

Yeah but all those teams have outstanding scouting and player development...we don't. We have to make like the 97 Marlins if we're ever gonna win it all.

Hangar18
09-22-2004, 01:35 PM
Lip,
I have to ask, what are you talking about? Are you aware that the Sox raised payroll 20% form 2003 to opening day 2004 when they drew almost 2 million people? And they added salaries during the season of guys like Garcia? Does this matter at all to you? You do realize the team has raised payroll.

Add to the fact that the Sox are going to draw about what they did last year with higher ticket prices tells me that they will further raise payroll next season. I have no idea to what level but it should be higher.

But you're ingnoring the facts. And please don't come back with the 3rd largest market garbage. The issue is raising payroll. They have from 2003 to 2004. And maybe you should wait before complaining about 2005 to see what happens.
Bob
:reinsy
"yeah Lip! I raised payroll! And WHO keeps talking about 3rd Largest Market? Were NOT! Not even close. CHICAGO is a small-market People.
Teams Cant survive in CHicago ........Who says you can spend 100 Million and be successful in Chicago is Crazy!
Yeah, why dont you guys wait til 2005. And buy season tickets while your at it! "

Hangar18- "Jerry, you raised Payroll by Default. You got rid of arbitration eligible players, Refused to fill holes, and used Cheaper replacements. Salary went UP because noone would take the high priced guys you had"

:reinsy
" ................... I ..............uhhhhhhhh....................
Oooh, look at the time! Gotta Go ! (Door Slams ........Tires Squeal)

shagar69
09-22-2004, 01:53 PM
everyone keeps saying this.but aint we ranked up in the top 4 somewhere? does anyone have a list of payrolls?TOP 4!!??!!! try around 18 or 19

mdep524
09-22-2004, 02:02 PM
Yeah but all those teams have outstanding scouting and player development...we don't. We have to make like the 97 Marlins if we're ever gonna win it all.
If we think like that, we're definitely doomed. We have to try to change our awful philosophical/evaluative/developmental shortcomings, not work around them! (and I am NOT counting payroll as a shortcoming that needs to be changed)

Wealz
09-22-2004, 02:11 PM
If we think like that, we're definitely doomed. We have to try to change our awful philosophical/evaluative/developmental shortcomings, not work around them! (and I am NOT counting payroll as a shortcoming that needs to be changed)
This is 100% correct.

What floors me is Reinsdorf found a way to correct one of the biggest problems this team had -- the eyesore of a park and the infamous upper deck -- yet he still employs Duane Shaffer. I don't get it.

Hangar18
09-22-2004, 03:55 PM
This is 100% correct.

What floors me is Reinsdorf found a way to correct one of the biggest problems this team had -- the eyesore of a park and the infamous upper deck -- yet he still employs Duane Shaffer. I don't get it.Make no mistake ................ JERRY REINSDORF Wanted the Triple Layer
of Skyboxes . No one else. That was HIS CALL. The Destruction and Flattening of Everything within 1000 feet of the park, like a Huge Bomb went off there, was HIS CALL. He wanted No Restaurants/Bars anywhere Near his place ..... so that Everyone would be FORCED to eat/drink ($$$$$$$$) in his
park. If you notice on the HOK website, theyve done some Revisionist history, and have Erased anything and everything concerning Comiskey Park.
They want NOTHING to do with that eyesore, and to this day, is the ONLY HOK Designed Stadium that they refuse to acknowledge and Distance themselves from. :angry:

Hangar18
09-22-2004, 04:02 PM
This is 100% correct.

What floors me is Reinsdorf found a way to correct one of the biggest problems this team had -- the eyesore of a park and the infamous upper deck -- yet he still employs Duane Shaffer. I don't get it.
:reinsy
" I told shaffer, 1 level of Skyboxes.......no more. Its a fans park. Wanted something more Old Fashioned.......but HOK said it would Cost Too Much,
and Id have to Quadruple Ticket prices! I care too much about the fans to
do that. Shaffer woulndt listen to me!"

Wealz
09-22-2004, 04:17 PM
Make no mistake ................ JERRY REINSDORF Wanted the Triple Layer
of Skyboxes . No one else. That was HIS CALL. The Destruction and Flattening of Everything within 1000 feet of the park, like a Huge Bomb went off there, was HIS CALL. He wanted No Restaurants/Bars anywhere Near his place ..... so that Everyone would be FORCED to eat/drink ($$$$$$$$) in his
park. If you notice on the HOK website, theyve done some Revisionist history, and have Erased anything and everything concerning Comiskey Park.
They want NOTHING to do with that eyesore, and to this day, is the ONLY HOK Designed Stadium that they refuse to acknowledge and Distance themselves from. :angry:
Credit where credit is due though Hangar. The park is now top notch.

Lip Man 1
09-22-2004, 05:07 PM
Bob:

Something else (and this is NOT a personal attack on you!). It drives me crazy to see folks post things like 'we need to fire the G.M.' or 'we need to fire the field manager,' or 'we need to get rid of the shortstop...he sucks' without offering ANY alternatives (even just for discussion.)

Let's talk about Williams. You say he needs to be fired. He probably does but I'd love to see a list of potential candidates you think can replace him.

Now let's be clear about certain things.

1. The new candidates need to have previous G.M. experience at the major league level. (As many fans have posted they are sick of guys trying to learn 'on the job.'

2. The new candidates have to understand they are not going to be paid top dollar. They never have in the past.

3. The new candidates have to understand they have a limited budget. (No 90 million dollar payrolls here laddie!)

4. The new candidates have to understand their authority may be limited. (Ever wonder why Williams didn't fire Manuel at the All Star break?)

Now given those parameters I'd love to see who you think would be willing (or desperate) enough to take this job.

It's not that easy to put together a list is it?????

I can only think of one person who might consider the job and that's Dave Dombrowski, who won a title with Florida and is rebuilding Detroit. I say that only because he was hired by Roland Hemond and that loyalty may entice him to come back home. He's from Chicago.

OK...your turn.

Lip