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Brian26
09-19-2004, 10:48 PM
On the postgame, Bruce Levine was talking about the Hunter/Burke incident and the ramifications of it. This came after Levine mentioned that Ozzie was quoted as saying he "hopes Minnesota clinches on our homefield." Levine went on to say that it could be taken out of context, but Guillen was trying to make a point of it all and hoped the younger players would see what the Twins were doing and be inspired by it for next year. Levine questioned if the older players really need that kind of inspiration though. As he followed up on that, he went back to the Burke/Hunter incident and how a lot of guys in the Sox clubhouse didn't like Ozzie's praising of Hunter after the incident, and apparently there's still a problem there. Levine said, point blank, that the guys who disagreed with Ozzie wouldn't be on the team next year. Apparently more guys took exception to Ozzie's comments than what's been reported in the media. This is refreshing to me, but you hate to see a rift between the players and the manager when this is the reason we had to get rid of Manual in the first place.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? I know Buehrle and Burke were very outspoken against Hunter, but I can't imagine the Sox would be looking to move Buehrle because of it.

I'm wondering if the FANS that disagreed with Ozzie should be back next year. I certainly think Hunter should have been put on his ass that night the next time he batted. That didn't happen. It was nice to see Mike Jackson let go, but was that really because he refused to retaliate or just stunk?

OEO Magglio
09-19-2004, 10:52 PM
On the postgame, Bruce Levine was talking about the Hunter/Burke incident and the ramifications of it. This came after Levine mentioned that Ozzie was quoted as saying he "hopes Minnesota clinches on our homefield." Levine went on to say that it could be taken out of context, but Guillen was trying to make a point of it all and hoped the younger players would see what the Twins were doing and be inspired by it for next year. Levine questioned if the older players really need that kind of inspiration though. As he followed up on that, he went back to the Burke/Hunter incident and how a lot of guys in the Sox clubhouse didn't like Ozzie's praising of Hunter after the incident, and apparently there's still a problem there. Levine said, point blank, that the guys who disagreed with Ozzie wouldn't be on the team next year. Apparently more guys took exception to Ozzie's comments than what's been reported in the media. This is refreshing to me, but you hate to see a rift between the players and the manager when this is the reason we had to get rid of Manual in the first place.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? I know Buehrle and Burke were very outspoken against Hunter, but I can't imagine the Sox would be looking to move Buehrle because of it.

I'm wondering if the FANS that disagreed with Ozzie should be back next year. I certainly think Hunter should have been put on his ass that night the next time he batted. That didn't happen. It was nice to see Mike Jackson let go, but was that really because he refused to retaliate or just stunk?

PLEASE, don't even talk about trading Buehrle. Just talking about it scares me. Although I highly doubt that would happen.

Tragg
09-19-2004, 10:53 PM
I really don't think that lack of effort is the reason that this collection of players didn't beat the Twins this year.

And I hope Levine's report is inaccurate. Geeze, MB is the best pitcher we have and have had in years.

Brian26
09-19-2004, 10:54 PM
PLEASE, don't even talk about trading Buehrle. Just talking about it scares me. Although I highly doubt that would happen.
I can't imagine the Sox would even consider it. I'm just bringing up what Levine said. Trading Buehrle now would be like...what's the old saying...re-arranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic.

OEO Magglio
09-19-2004, 10:57 PM
I can't imagine the Sox would even consider it. I'm just bringing up what Levine said. Trading Buehrle now would be like...what's the old saying...re-arranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic.
I agree with you I can never imagine that happening and we have to consider the source. Like I said though, just even talking about that kind of scares me.

MRKARNO
09-19-2004, 11:00 PM
Buehrle is about the last player you want to trade. Trading him would be the worst possible thing this organization can do, along with getting rid of Thomas. Those are the two untouchables.

Brian26
09-19-2004, 11:05 PM
Again, Levine didn't say the Sox were considering trading Beuhrle. I don't want to blame the guy for that.

He said guys that disagreed with Ozzie wouldn't be on the team next year. It appears, through what I've seen in the media, that Buehrle disagreed with Ozzie.

I'm putting 2 and 2 together here, but I highly doubt the Sox would trade Buehrle.

With that said, what veteran guys, behind the scenes, did say they disagreed with Ozzie? I guess we will find out soon enough who's on the chopping block.

balke
09-19-2004, 11:14 PM
Ozzie's full of crap. He's trying to be a hard @ss. This is like high school football coach crap here. Keep a tough demeanor to disguise the fact that you have no idea what you are doing.


Ozzie, here's a few things you can do to be a better manager:

1) Don't call out your players for no reason. When you agitate someone who doesn't deserve any kind of criticism, you lose credibility w/ the players, and the fans. Wait until they do something worth calling them out for.

2) Try finding a solid lineup, or at least semi-solid. When you change the lineup card everyday, you show everyone how indecisive, and unsure of your team's ability you are. Although, I know your gut tells you what to do, and you have no REAL control... try not to put Sandy at DH, or Gload in the 4-spot. While you're at it, don't put Gload in the outfield anymore since he obviously can't play the position.

3) Keep your mouth shut. Since you are so important to this team, why don't you stick around for a few more games. Do you really need to mouth off about your suspension, making comments you know full well will extend your vacation time? What points do you prove shooting off your mouth about an umpire when everyone knows the story? Are you established enough yet to call out Buck Showalter?

4) Show some consistancy. Are you tough, or are you a wuss? IF you really want your players to "Pitch tough, or play tough".... why don't you get tough when it comes to defending your players? Not just Torii, Torii is the build-up of a full season in which you turned these boys into babies instead of men. Answer the high inside pitch with some of your own. Get out there and argue balls and strikes. Kick some dirt, or spit some gum.

5) Work on your timing. Retaliate quickly. Call out your players early in the season at the first sign of weakness. Not too early, not before the season starts (ala Frank Thomas). Try within the first 100 or so games bud. Light a fire early, and let the flame burn.


These are 5 suggestions I have for you. I'm sure WSI has a few more. I myself have more, but I know what you would say... "That's take 6, I've seen enough of him".

Rex Hudler
09-19-2004, 11:48 PM
Ozzie has a tendency to runn off at the mouth. We all know that. Ozzie may talk like he has total control over the roster next year, but he doesn't. Budgets and other available players will have a lot more to do with who is here and who is gone than just Ozzie spouting off. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that other than that I do believe he is losing credibility in the clubhouse.

OurBitchinMinny
09-20-2004, 12:01 AM
ozzie sucks, but we are talking about mark buerhle here, not cy young or even johan santana. He is a #2 or #3 starter. And has the third best stuff on this team.

SEALgep
09-20-2004, 12:02 AM
Ozzie has a tendency to runn off at the mouth. We all know that. Ozzie may talk like he has total control over the roster next year, but he doesn't. Budgets and other available players will have a lot more to do with who is here and who is gone than just Ozzie spouting off. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that other than that I do believe he is losing credibility in the clubhouse.Ozzie readily admits he doesn't know who will be back and who won't. The only thing he has ever said about that is that him and KW are on the same page. With that said, I seriously doubt roster moves are being based on who agreed with Ozzie about the Hunter situation, and only to do with creating a lineup built around speed, defense, and a better lefty to righty balance. It's easy to blame Ozzie for our mishaps this season, but if this team quit on Ozzie, it would be the second manager this team has quit on. Seems to me that there is a problem with the team, not the management. We'll nip it in the butt next year, and so forth. Better late than never. I still like Ozzie, and when he gets the personnel he is looking for, I think we'll see what he can really bring to the table.

jeremyb1
09-20-2004, 02:34 AM
Good idea. Support your team's rivals over your own players and if they don't like it get rid of them. It speaks a lot towards team unity.

Seriously, I place less value in team chemistry than just about anyone that posts here I'd imagine but it seems to me that the best way to get your team to play hard is to form a strong bond as a team and foster an us against them attitude. It seems our guys would play harder if they all had strong positive feelings against one another and loathed the opposition. Ozzie's tactics with the Hunter situation seem to divide the clubhouse and take away one more motivational tactic by lessening our rivalry with the Twins.

BainesHOF
09-20-2004, 02:38 AM
ozzie sucks, but we are talking about mark buerhle here, not cy young or even johan santana. He is a #2 or #3 starter. And has the third best stuff on this team.
You are correct, sir.

balboner
09-20-2004, 02:46 AM
I have a better idea than getting rid of everyone that disagreed with Ozzie. Why don't we get rid of Ozzie! He let this team down when a manager was needed the most, and the subsequent terrible 2nd half was the result. Besides being a jerk in the media, his in-game managing sucks. Wow, sounds like Dusty Baker, doesnt it?

JRIG
09-20-2004, 06:01 AM
I have a better idea than getting rid of everyone that disagreed with Ozzie. Why don't we get rid of Ozzie! He let this team down when a manager was needed the most, and the subsequent terrible 2nd half was the result. Besides being a jerk in the media, his in-game managing sucks. Wow, sounds like Dusty Baker, doesnt it?
Ozzie seemed overmatched at the start and hasn't gotten any better. He has no clue on how to manage a pitching staff. His picnh-hitting decisions have been hilarious (in the bad way) at times. He's been making excuses for losing all year, saying he doesn't have "his guys." He calls out his players in the media for any infraction. He said a pitcher who was dominating at AAA (Diaz) was finished at the major league level after 4 starts. His one supposed skill was rallying the troops and adding to "clubhouse Chemistry." So what happens? His team quits on him and apparently is starting to rebel.

Add "manager" to the long list of off-season needs.

thepaulbowski
09-20-2004, 07:43 AM
I hope Minnesota clinches here...Let these saps watch them celebrate. For the ones who come back next year, it may light a fire in their gut.

PaulDrake
09-20-2004, 08:16 AM
ozzie sucks, but we are talking about mark buerhle here, not cy young or even johan santana. He is a #2 or #3 starter. And has the third best stuff on this team. That may be so, but he and Garcia are the only starters that don't make me cringe when I see their names in the game day lineup.

wdelaney72
09-20-2004, 08:30 AM
I hope Minnesota clinches here...Let these saps watch them celebrate. For the ones who come back next year, it may light a fire in their gut.
That was the point Ozzie was trying to make. Again were back to looking at the "core" of veterans on this team who have not and cannot get the job done. Ozzie has made mistakes, but he did not lose the division, the players did.

I wasn't a Jerry Manual fan. Even he wasn't responsible for the team losing. These core players can't get it done.

Torii Hunter took a cheap shot. Yet, that's also hard nosed baseball. If he was on the Sox, we'd all be praising him for it. I don't agree with throwing at him in the next inning. They should have retaliated by hard slides into 2B and Home, and by winning. But there's a problem with that theory, our guys can't get on base!

LuvSox
09-20-2004, 08:31 AM
I hope Minnesota clinches here...Let these saps watch them celebrate. For the ones who come back next year, it may light a fire in their gut.
Finally, a comment with some meaning. Maybe they'll see something they like.

OEO Magglio
09-20-2004, 08:41 AM
ozzie sucks, but we are talking about mark buerhle here, not cy young or even johan santana. He is a #2 or #3 starter. And has the third best stuff on this team.
I thought he was a 3 or a 4? I agree though, imo he's a solid number 2 starter. You don't trade the caliber of Mark Buehrle though, period.

Viva Magglio
09-20-2004, 08:45 AM
Ozzie is a goof.

Clembasbal
09-20-2004, 09:22 AM
Ozzie's full of crap. He's trying to be a hard @ss. This is like high school football coach crap here. Keep a tough demeanor to disguise the fact that you have no idea what you are doing.


Ozzie, here's a few things you can do to be a better manager:

1) Don't call out your players for no reason. When you agitate someone who doesn't deserve any kind of criticism, you lose credibility w/ the players, and the fans. Wait until they do something worth calling them out for.

2) Try finding a solid lineup, or at least semi-solid. When you change the lineup card everyday, you show everyone how indecisive, and unsure of your team's ability you are. Although, I know your gut tells you what to do, and you have no REAL control... try not to put Sandy at DH, or Gload in the 4-spot. While you're at it, don't put Gload in the outfield anymore since he obviously can't play the position.

4) Keep your mouth shut. Since you are so important to this team, why don't you stick around for a few more games. Do you really need to mouth off about your suspension, making comments you know full well will extend your vacation time? What points do you prove shooting off your mouth about an umpire when everyone knows the story? Are you established enough yet to call out Buck Showalter?

5) Show some consistancy. Are you tough, or are you a wuss? IF you really want your players to "Pitch tough, or play tough".... why don't you get tough when it comes to defending your players? Not just Torii, Torii is the build-up of a full season in which you turned these boys into babies instead of men. Answer the high inside pitch with some of your own. Get out there and argue balls and strikes. Kick some dirt, or spit some gum.

6) Work on your timing. Retaliate quickly. Call out your players early in the season at the first sign of weakness. Not too early, not before the season starts (ala Frank Thomas). Try within the first 100 or so games bud. Light a fire early, and let the flame burn.


These are 6 suggestions I have for you. I'm sure WSI has a few more. I myself have more, but I know what you would say... "That's take 6, I've seen enough of him".
So what you are saying is that you too had a opporunity to be the White Sox manager this past offseason? Or are you just running your mouth about something you know nothing about either?

You know coaching little league and high school are completely different, so is high school and college, and I am almost guessing it is completely different than MLB.

Yeah Ozzie should do somethings to change, but how would you know what he should do...you probably never even smelled a jock out of high school.

Clembasbal
09-20-2004, 09:24 AM
I thought he was a 3 or a 4? I agree though, imo he's a solid number 2 starter. You don't trade the caliber of Mark Buehrle though, period.
A 3 or 4 on a sold pitching staff team, not on the Sox...Garland and Contrearass is not ahead of him...neither is Munoz, Diaz, Stewert, or whoever else is out there.

duke of dorwood
09-20-2004, 09:31 AM
If Guillen managed as well as he shoots off his mouth, we'd be a lot closer. I've had enuf of him-he has shown no imrovement as the year went on.

OEO Magglio
09-20-2004, 09:32 AM
A 3 or 4 on a sold pitching staff team, not on the Sox...Garland and Contrearass is not ahead of him...neither is Munoz, Diaz, Stewert, or whoever else is out there.
Mark Buehrle isn't a number 4 on any staff.

gosox41
09-20-2004, 09:41 AM
ozzie sucks, but we are talking about mark buerhle here, not cy young or even johan santana. He is a #2 or #3 starter. And has the third best stuff on this team.
I agree. I wouldn't look to trade Buehrle, but if a team made me an offer I couldn't refuse, I'd take it.



Bob

daveeym
09-20-2004, 10:47 AM
Ozzie's full of crap. He's trying to be a hard @ss. This is like high school football coach crap here. Keep a tough demeanor to disguise the fact that you have no idea what you are doing.


Ozzie, here's a few things you can do to be a better manager:

1) Don't call out your players for no reason. When you agitate someone who doesn't deserve any kind of criticism, you lose credibility w/ the players, and the fans. Wait until they do something worth calling them out for.

2) Try finding a solid lineup, or at least semi-solid. When you change the lineup card everyday, you show everyone how indecisive, and unsure of your team's ability you are. Although, I know your gut tells you what to do, and you have no REAL control... try not to put Sandy at DH, or Gload in the 4-spot. While you're at it, don't put Gload in the outfield anymore since he obviously can't play the position.

4) Keep your mouth shut. Since you are so important to this team, why don't you stick around for a few more games. Do you really need to mouth off about your suspension, making comments you know full well will extend your vacation time? What points do you prove shooting off your mouth about an umpire when everyone knows the story? Are you established enough yet to call out Buck Showalter?

5) Show some consistancy. Are you tough, or are you a wuss? IF you really want your players to "Pitch tough, or play tough".... why don't you get tough when it comes to defending your players? Not just Torii, Torii is the build-up of a full season in which you turned these boys into babies instead of men. Answer the high inside pitch with some of your own. Get out there and argue balls and strikes. Kick some dirt, or spit some gum.

6) Work on your timing. Retaliate quickly. Call out your players early in the season at the first sign of weakness. Not too early, not before the season starts (ala Frank Thomas). Try within the first 100 or so games bud. Light a fire early, and let the flame burn.


These are 6 suggestions I have for you. I'm sure WSI has a few more. I myself have more, but I know what you would say... "That's take 6, I've seen enough of him".You're all f'n nuts and this was probably the best post in the thread. I disagree with the overall take on ozzie in this post but... 1. TOTALLY AGREE - Oz and KW need to cut this crap out.

2. HALF AGREE - Before maggs and frank went out I'd agree, since then I can't blame him and for the last month plus he better figure out what each player can offer and at what positions.

3. oops you don't have a 3

4. Tough one, you bitch about him not defending his players and then rail him for this, was this ego? an extension of him sticking up for his players? sticking up for himself? With the way this played out I think most agreed with ozzie.

5. Mostly agree with this. Hunter should have been knocked down even though i agree it was nothing more than hard nosed baseball. Knock him down or plunk him in the ass, don't go head hunting on that one.

6. Totally disagree here, minus the times that apply to 1. He did a good job at this and after frank and maggs went down and the season went from playoff possibilities to playing for next year oz just needed to evaluate and call out guys in PRIVATE not in the media.

infohawk
09-20-2004, 11:24 AM
I think we are getting carried away with wild speculation on this particular thread. I read the statement about not bringing back the players that disagreed with Ozzie differently. Put the prospective changes to the team in the context of wins and losses and not animosity with the manager.

We have known for quite a while now that Ozzie would like to play a different style of baseball. KW has also expressed similar sentiments going back to last offseason when he began to talk about pursuing "grinders." The term "grinders" is just code for hard-nosed players who play the game with intensity. Such players may not be flashy, but they hustle, get bloody and don't give away at-bats. It has become obvious to KW, Ozzie and the rest of us that the sum of our team is probably worth less than the individual parts. Many players weren't going to be back anyway because Ozzie (and KW) want a team oriented toward pitching, speed and defense.

From Ozzie's vantage point, the Tori Hunter incident simply typifies the underlying problem with the culture/attitude of this team. Ozzie saw the play as hard-nosed. Some of the Sox players viewed the play as dirty. Ozzie's point was that the Sox had two options. They could whine like a bunch of dandy-boys about the unfairness of the play, or they could up the ante by playing just as hard as the Twins. The Sox elected to pursue the former option. I think that just confirmed what Ozzie already suspected about his team's psyche. A one-time retaliation would have been utterly meaningless. What do you do, just throw at Hunter, call it even and continue to let the Twins out-hustle you? It doesn't take a whole lot of courage and toughness to peg a batter and then feel justified after doing so. Hunter was making a statement. The Sox should have risen to the challenge and played with an equal if not greater level of toughness. At some level, the Sox just don't want it as badly as the Twins do and Ozzie knows it.

My guess is that even without the Hunter incident, changes were coming to this team. The team's reaction to the Hunter incident just provided further evidence to the growing awareness that changes were needed.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-20-2004, 12:01 PM
We can argue whether the source of the team's late-July collapse was due to Ozzie not retaliating when Torii ran over Burke.

Or whether the source of the collapse was the players' being pissed Ozzie made a public statement that it was okay Torii ran over Burke.

Or whether the entire incident was nothing compared to losing Frank and Magglio to injury. It's highly debatable.

Here's what is NOT DEBATABLE. The Sox were on a 4-game winning streak on July 25th when Jon Garland took the mound and got shelled by Detroit. Ozzie got pissed about it in his post-game comments and Garland shot back saying "that's just the way I pitch." The next game (July 26) was the Torii collision game and the Sox lost again. They would get swept by Minnesota and lose 7 in a row.

UNDEBATABLE: The season ended between July 25 and July 31, the period of that 7-game losing streak -- and Ozzie is right in the middle of *both* key events.

1. His comments about Garland.
2. His comments about dismissing retaliation towards Torii.

And finally, this UNDEBATABLE point: Whatever role Ozzie played -- regardless of who you believe -- the Sox manager sure didn't do anything to improve the situation those fateful 7 days. If he had done anything to improve the situation, we would have heard from the players about it by now.

The simple fact Torii got drilled in his first plate appearance in Minnesota last week speaks volumes about what the players have been thinking these past 6 weeks. If it was okay to drill him last week, why wasn't it okay to drill him 6 weeks ago???

You people who are excusing Ozzie Guillen's culpability for the failure of this team starting July 25 are thinking with your heart and not your head. This guy is ****ing up, and ****ing up big. Frankly, some of us aren't too surprised at the news.

And now we have reports of a divided clubhouse and you want to dismiss them -- or even take Ozzie's side of things? Oh, brother...
:kukoo:

fusillirob1983
09-20-2004, 12:02 PM
I'd completely agree with Ozzie on the Hunter play if Jamie Burke was blocking the plate.

JB98
09-20-2004, 12:04 PM
A 3 or 4 on a sold pitching staff team, not on the Sox...Garland and Contrearass is not ahead of him...neither is Munoz, Diaz, Stewert, or whoever else is out there.
Buerhle a 3 or 4? You must be kidding. This guy is going to win 15-18 games every year. As a matter of fact, Buehrle won 19 games in 2002 on a team that barely finished above .500. How many No. 4 starters do you know who have accomplished that? Pitchers like Mark are gold. The guy throws 200 innings every year and wins his fair share of games. He may not be an ace, but he's good enough to be part of the foundation for a championship team. Look around the league, man. I think you'll see that Buerhle would be a No. 2 starter on the majority of teams, including some that are in contention. As a matter of fact, Buerhle would be the No. 2 starter on the AL Central champion Twins.

Generally, I find this thread to be ridiculous. No way Buerhle is going to be traded because of the Burke/Hunter thing. Ozzie has spoken glowingly of Mark numerous times this year. I think he wants Buerhle around, regardless of what Levine says. Furthermore, KW is going to keep Garcia, Buerhle, Contreras and Garland together. Our starting pitching is really the thing we're going to base our hopes on for 2005. Hopefully, another piece will be added in the offseason to complete the rotation.

As for Ozzie himself, I'm a little surprised that everyone here wants to kill him. He made a major mistake when he praised Hunter and failed to back up his players after Burke got run over. No question about that. Otherwise, I don't think he's done a horrible job. Given the roster we have, we shouldn't expect to be better than .500. Of course there have been times when I've questioned Ozzie's handling of the pitching staff and lineup decisions. However, I can't recall a season where I didn't disagree with our manager at times. Certainly, you guys would have to admit that no manager could have guided us to the postseason with the likes of MJ, Cotts, Adkins and Politte in the bullpen. Pitchers like that tend to make a manager look bad.

Clembasbal
09-20-2004, 12:24 PM
And now we have reports of a divided clubhouse and you want to dismiss them -- or even take Ozzie's side of things? Oh, brother...
:kukoo:I am not taking Ozzie's side by any means, I am just saying that nobody here knows how to manage so we should all just shut up when it comes to saying what he should and should not do.

We can be criticial any time we want to it is our free will, we are fans who are upset about all of this. But I just don't think that any of us knows what goes on in the clubhouse, what goes on during games, or what Ozzie has to deal with during the 9 innings.

Also, what is undebateable is that ripping Garland did not end the season nor did Burke get rocked like you suggested...

Rather it was not just one thing! I can easliy argue that when Mags came back and got hurt, and when Thomas was hurt and gone for the season that this was the end, instead of your point. Thomas's last game was July 7th and Mags was on July 22nd. Since July 7th the Sox have gone 32-37 (Mags played in some of these games), and since July 22nd they have gone 24-32

Hello! You are not going to win anything when you play under .500 ball for an extended period, and it is not just from Hunter hitting Burke or Ozzie bitching out Garland, Sine July 31st they have gone 22-25. Ok, still under .500 but could it be because Thomas and Mags were not present? Trading Loiaza didn't mean anything either in terms of moral either right?

You can't blame the season on one or two things, Thomas and Mags did not cost us the year and neither did Ozzie or Garland or Burke. It is a number of things, which is why you play 60 games by June 1st and 162 during the season, one thing does not end a season.

Clembasbal
09-20-2004, 12:26 PM
I'd completely agree with Ozzie on the Hunter play if Jamie Burke was blocking the plate.
I agree 100%, I would have told my boys the same thing.

Clembasbal
09-20-2004, 12:31 PM
Buerhle a 3 or 4? You must be kidding. This guy is going to win 15-18 games every year. As a matter of fact, Buehrle won 19 games in 2002 on a team that barely finished above .500. How many No. 4 starters do you know who have accomplished that? Pitchers like Mark are gold. The guy throws 200 innings every year and wins his fair share of games. He may not be an ace, but he's good enough to be part of the foundation for a championship team. Look around the league, man. I think you'll see that Buerhle would be a No. 2 starter on the majority of teams, including some that are in contention. As a matter of fact, Buerhle would be the No. 2 starter on the AL Central champion Twins.
Ok, you are right, it was early when I posted this and I was not on top of my game. I was more trying to say that on the White Sox he is not a 2 or 3, but instead a number 1...against what was suggested earlier. And that on some teams he could be a number 2 maybe a 3 (Cubs, Cardinals?)...not on most teams and definately not a number 4. Sorry.:(:

PaleHoseGeorge
09-20-2004, 12:42 PM
I am not taking Ozzie's side by any means, I am just saying that nobody here knows how to manage so we should all just shut up when it comes to saying what he should and should not do.

We can be criticial any time we want to it is our free will, we are fans who are upset about all of this....
Ozzie lost his team, Clem. He lost them the day before a critical 3-game series for first place in the A.L. Central. He lost them by shooting off his mouth -- not once but twice.

Hey, you want to make excuses for a lousy manager who takes a team with a 4-game winning streak and steers them directly into a 7-game tailspin? That's your prerogative. Frankly, you're not very convincing in your reasons why. Apparently Ozzie gets the benefit of the doubt no matter how much losing results.

Good luck with that line of reasoning.

thepaulbowski
09-20-2004, 12:48 PM
Ozzie lost his team, Clem. He lost them the day before a critical 3-game series for first place in the A.L. Central. He lost them by shooting off his mouth -- not once but twice.

Hey, you want to make excuses for a lousy manager who takes a team with a 4-game winning streak and steers them directly into a 7-game tailspin? That's your prerogative. Frankly, you're not very convincing in your reasons why. Apparently Ozzie gets the benefit of the doubt no matter how much losing results.

Good luck with that line of reasoning.
I have no problem with Ozzie calling out Garland in public. That is how Garland works, he blames his teamates for the unearned runs in the paper or states "doesn't care about the fans." Garland took things to media and Guillen should finish things through the media with him, that's the way Garland's rock filled head works. If the guy had any stones (in some place besides his head) he would have went out in his next start and been lights out.

I think Ozzie has lost this team, but IMO he kept it together a lot longer than most managers would have been able to. I think a lot of the reason he has lost this is because many of the players see the handwriting on the wall concerning their future with the Sox.

JRIG
09-20-2004, 12:52 PM
I have no problem with Ozzie calling out Garland in public. That is how Garland works, he blames his teamates for the unearned runs in the paper or states "doesn't care about the fans." Garland took things to media and Guillen should finish things through the media with him, that's the way Garland's rock filled head works. If the guy had any stones (in some place besides his head) he would have went out in his next start and been lights out.

I think Ozzie has lost this team, but IMO he kept it together a lot longer than most managers would have been able to. I think a lot of the reason he has lost this is because many of the players see the handwriting on the wall concerning their future with the Sox.
A whole week or two after Ordonez and Thomas went down? You want to praise him for keeping it together "that long"? That Minnesota series was the end of July. The team was lost by then.

alohafri
09-20-2004, 01:08 PM
Ozzie lost his team, Clem. He lost them the day before a critical 3-game series for first place in the A.L. Central. He lost them by shooting off his mouth -- not once but twice.

Hey, you want to make excuses for a lousy manager who takes a team with a 4-game winning streak and steers them directly into a 7-game tailspin? That's your prerogative. Frankly, you're not very convincing in your reasons why. Apparently Ozzie gets the benefit of the doubt no matter how much losing results.

Good luck with that line of reasoning.
It all starts at the top. That knucklehead owner who insists on hiring incompetent boobs to run the general manager office and the dugout because they are A) minorities (Reinsdork is on the minority hiring practices committee for MLB) and B) they work cheap. Frank Robinson is doing a pretty good job with a talentless bunch in Montreal, but he would demand more money than Ozzie Guillen.

Get rid of this buffoon and get someone who is willing to spend money on a GM and field manager and we have something!

Brian26
09-20-2004, 01:14 PM
I agree 100%, I would have told my boys the same thing.

Only problem with this is that Jamie Burke was about 5 miles from the plate on this play. That makes it dirty, and I hope you tell "your boys" the difference between sportsmanship and dirty plays.

Brian26
09-20-2004, 01:18 PM
It all starts at the top. That knucklehead owner who insists on hiring incompetent boobs to run the general manager office and the dugout because they are A) minorities (Reinsdork is on the minority hiring practices committee for MLB) and B) they work cheap.

Yikes. I don't want to touch this comment with a ten-foot pole. I agree with you about the working cheap part, but I don't agree with you about the minorities comment. I don't think that applies to Manuel, Williams or Ozzie. I agree with Part B, but not Part A.

gosox41
09-20-2004, 01:20 PM
Ozzie lost his team, Clem. He lost them the day before a critical 3-game series for first place in the A.L. Central. He lost them by shooting off his mouth -- not once but twice.

Hey, you want to make excuses for a lousy manager who takes a team with a 4-game winning streak and steers them directly into a 7-game tailspin? That's your prerogative. Frankly, you're not very convincing in your reasons why. Apparently Ozzie gets the benefit of the doubt no matter how much losing results.

Good luck with that line of reasoning.
There's a shock. One thing the Sox and some of their fans are good at it ignoring the facts and making excuses. Ozzie messed up. Plain and simple. KW's messed up 4 years in a row, plain and simple.


Bob

balke
09-20-2004, 01:21 PM
You're all f'n nuts and this was probably the best post in the thread. I disagree with the overall take on ozzie in this post but... 1. TOTALLY AGREE - Oz and KW need to cut this crap out.

2. HALF AGREE - Before maggs and frank went out I'd agree, since then I can't blame him and for the last month plus he better figure out what each player can offer and at what positions.

3. oops you don't have a 3

4. Tough one, you bitch about him not defending his players and then rail him for this, was this ego? an extension of him sticking up for his players? sticking up for himself? With the way this played out I think most agreed with ozzie.

5. Mostly agree with this. Hunter should have been knocked down even though i agree it was nothing more than hard nosed baseball. Knock him down or plunk him in the ass, don't go head hunting on that one.

6. Totally disagree here, minus the times that apply to 1. He did a good job at this and after frank and maggs went down and the season went from playoff possibilities to playing for next year oz just needed to evaluate and call out guys in PRIVATE not in the media.
Sorry, I suck at math, and didn't check my count, heh. Either that, or I deleted one.

6) (or should I say 5? I'll just use the edit :cool: ) He could've called Garland out months before he did. The fact that he waited to pick on a weak team when they were struggling to find a way to win w/o their studs disgusts me.

There was plenty of bad pitching to critique when we were winning. As fun as it was to win, even though we'd give up 6+ runs every game, we lacked that same "pitch tough" mentality even then.

Don't make excuses for Ozzie just because we couldn't produce AS MANY Runs and started losing. We still have decent offensive production, even now. We still have the same crap pitching, with more L's in our record. Did it really have take him over half a season to do something about it?

As far as 2) goes, I'm glad you at least partly agree, because he's done it all season, and it's been sickening to watch. That was the only reason I, and people I talked to, had to drop Manuel. Obviously Manuel is still here.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-20-2004, 01:25 PM
Yikes. I don't want to touch this comment with a ten-foot pole. I agree with you about the working cheap part, but I don't agree with you about the minorities comment. I don't think that applies to Manuel, Williams or Ozzie. I agree with Part B, but not Part A.
I agree. Let's stick to the facts and not steer this discussion into theories that simply aren't grounded in reality. This thread will very quickly wind up in the Roadhouse with a giant padlock if we can't stick to discussing facts and not dubious speculation.

balke
09-20-2004, 01:33 PM
I agree. Let's stick to the facts and not steer this discussion into theories that simply aren't grounded in reality. This thread will very quickly wind up in the Roadhouse with a giant padlock if we can't stick to discussing facts and not dubious speculation.
Seconded... or thirded(?)

Players are acquired and evaluated based on talent. Whether that is done WELL... that's the real debate.

alohafri
09-20-2004, 02:22 PM
Yikes. I don't want to touch this comment with a ten-foot pole. I agree with you about the working cheap part, but I don't agree with you about the minorities comment. I don't think that applies to Manuel, Williams or Ozzie. I agree with Part B, but not Part A.
Absolutely not meant to be a racial comment. Reinsdork is trying to set a positive model for other owners to follow which needs to be done. But rather than try to find someone who is qualified, he chooses people who will be "yes men" and who will work for peanuts.

batmanZoSo
09-20-2004, 05:07 PM
Again, Levine didn't say the Sox were considering trading Beuhrle. I don't want to blame the guy for that.

He said guys that disagreed with Ozzie wouldn't be on the team next year. It appears, through what I've seen in the media, that Buehrle disagreed with Ozzie.

I'm putting 2 and 2 together here, but I highly doubt the Sox would trade Buehrle.

With that said, what veteran guys, behind the scenes, did say they disagreed with Ozzie? I guess we will find out soon enough who's on the chopping block.

Could "guys that disagree with Ozzie" mean "guys who don't abide by his preaching hard-nosed ball?" I'm sure a good dozen players took issue with Ozzie praising Hunter's move and you can't get rid of half the team.

Daver
09-20-2004, 05:30 PM
If you want chemistry in the dugout, have Ross Gload walk around carrying a bunsen burner. Team chemistry is next to meaningless.

santo=dorf
09-20-2004, 05:42 PM
If you want chemistry in the dugout, have Ross Gload walk around carrying a bunsen burner. Team chemistry is next to meaningless.
I believe Konerko is the team chemist.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/mlb/kids/website_contest/winner/images/konerko-science.jpg

"First they want Gload to take my spot at 1B, and now they want him to take my place in the laboratory?!?!"

ma-gaga
09-20-2004, 06:38 PM
KW built a team one way, Ozzie wants to manage another way, and now there's a problem. Gee, I didn't see that coming.

This crap of Ozzie sucking up publicly to how the Twins play, reminds me of Jerry Maguire. Where Drew Bledsoe and scummy sports agent are watching Rod Tidwell and Jerry Maguire hugging, and Drew says, "why aren't we like that?".

So the question is: What are the W.Sox going to do? Are they going to "fill in some holes", or are they going to "rebuild"?

The problem is that if they choose to "rebuild", the rest of the division is already ahead of the W.Sox. Even moribound KC.

The problem is that if they choose to "fill in some holes", they are already 10+ games behind the Twins and they'll need lightning in a bottle to catch them next year. The gap looks bigger and bigger each day.

KW is in a horrible spot. He can't go forward, he can't tear down. Maybe he signs the next Jose Guillen and Pudge Rodriguez like Detroit did and can contend with this pitching staff. Maybe he get's Maggs to take a 1 year incentive laden deal. Maybe F.Thomas can play all of next year. That's a lot of "maybes".

But never fear, I think the W.Sox have one more shot at the division title next year before they get too old, and the rest of the division catches up. But it's going to take a lot of skill and even more luck to get that title...

:gulp: (is "undebateable" a word?)

PaleHoseGeorge
09-20-2004, 06:51 PM
KW built a team one way, Ozzie wants to manage another way, and now there's a problem. Gee, I didn't see that coming.

This crap of Ozzie sucking up publicly to how the Twins play, reminds me of Jerry Maguire. Where Drew Bledsoe and scummy sports agent are watching Rod Tidwell and Jerry Maguire hugging, and Drew says, "why aren't we like that?".

So the question is: What are the W.Sox going to do? Are they going to "fill in some holes", or are they going to "rebuild"?

The problem is that if they choose to "rebuild", the rest of the division is already ahead of the W.Sox. Even moribound KC.

The problem is that if they choose to "fill in some holes", they are already 10+ games behind the Twins and they'll need lightning in a bottle to catch them next year. The gap looks bigger and bigger each day.

KW is in a horrible spot. He can't go forward, he can't tear down. Maybe he signs the next Jose Guillen and Pudge Rodriguez like Detroit did and can contend with this pitching staff. Maybe he get's Maggs to take a 1 year incentive laden deal. Maybe F.Thomas can play all of next year. That's a lot of "maybes".

But never fear, I think the W.Sox have one more shot at the division title next year before they get too old, and the rest of the division catches up. But it's going to take a lot of skill and even more luck to get that title...


Careful here. Unless you meant this entire rant to be in deep pink, I believe the Twinkie crack the North Woods media is distributing around the Twin Cities has affected your judgment.

Ma-gaga, just say "No."
:cool:
:bluerock

Clembasbal
09-20-2004, 09:43 PM
Team chemistry is next to meaningless.
And have you ever played sports before?

Lem_Siddons
09-20-2004, 09:45 PM
Ozzie is acting exactly like most people would have expected. He would not be a calming influence, we let that Manager go last season.

Daver
09-20-2004, 09:47 PM
And have you ever played sports before?
Yeah, I was a 4 year varsity starter in HS, on a team that came close to winning a state championship.

BarbG
09-20-2004, 09:49 PM
I loved Ozzie The Player. Don't much care for Ozzie The Manager.

I can't blame him entirely, though, for this gutless team's propensity to collectively morph into Charlie Brown every time the chips are down.

2004 White Sox: We Couldn't Care Less, And It Shows

DickAllen72
09-20-2004, 09:54 PM
KW built a team one way, Ozzie wants to manage another way, and now there's a problem. Gee, I didn't see that coming.

This crap of Ozzie sucking up publicly to how the Twins play, reminds me of Jerry Maguire. Where Drew Bledsoe and scummy sports agent are watching Rod Tidwell and Jerry Maguire hugging, and Drew says, "why aren't we like that?".

So the question is: What are the W.Sox going to do? Are they going to "fill in some holes", or are they going to "rebuild"?

The problem is that if they choose to "rebuild", the rest of the division is already ahead of the W.Sox. Even moribound KC.

The problem is that if they choose to "fill in some holes", they are already 10+ games behind the Twins and they'll need lightning in a bottle to catch them next year. The gap looks bigger and bigger each day.

KW is in a horrible spot. He can't go forward, he can't tear down. Maybe he signs the next Jose Guillen and Pudge Rodriguez like Detroit did and can contend with this pitching staff. Maybe he get's Maggs to take a 1 year incentive laden deal. Maybe F.Thomas can play all of next year. That's a lot of "maybes".

But never fear, I think the W.Sox have one more shot at the division title next year before they get too old, and the rest of the division catches up. But it's going to take a lot of skill and even more luck to get that title...

:gulp: (is "undebateable" a word?)

Since the Sox are already overpaying for the players they already have, it's going to take a lot of money to get that title, but it can be done easily....that is, if they're willing to invest big money up front which they will recoup many times over by winning a championship.

They have to sign two top quality starters, Pavano and Perez. Then they sign JD Drew to play RF. Then, they trade Garland, Crede and whomever for Chone Figgins.

1B Konerko
2B Harris
3B Figgins
SS Uribe
LF Lee
CF Rowand
RF Drew
C Davis
DH Thomas

Gload
Valdez
Everett
Perez
Burke

Pavano
Buehrle
Garcia
O Perez
Contreras

Takatsu
Marte
Grilli
Diaz
Cotts
Adkins

That should do it.

PS If we can't get Figgins, trade Crede and Garland to Pittsburgh for Jason Kendall and Rob Mackowiak. Mackowiac could play third base and Kendall can catch most of the time and lead off or bat second.

Clembasbal
09-20-2004, 09:56 PM
Only problem with this is that Jamie Burke was about 5 miles from the plate on this play. That makes it dirty, and I hope you tell "your boys" the difference between sportsmanship and dirty plays.
I don't understand the whole concept of all of this...OK you don't like my thoughts on Ozzie ripping Garland or that Thomas and Mags getting hurt was the main issue the Sox lost (which by the way has solid evidence to support my claims unlike someone else's claims).

But telling my players to play as hard as they can all of the time and to never give up until the whistle blows or horn sounds is they way I coach. It's the way to play sports, and it is not unsportsmanlike. It is showing respect to the game. RESPECT! If you know the rules, play the game the way it is supposed to be played and do all the right things then you are showing the game respect.

Hunter rocking Burke pissed me off as a Sox fan, and it upset me Ozzie sent a message 6 weeks later, but Burke was getting the ball from RF or CF and guarding the plate...don't tell me if he would have caught the ball that he would not have attempted to tag him, because if he were to attempt a tag then the hit was legit and that's the end. Kind of like Carlos Lee taking out a SS or 2B four feet from the bag...he is trying to take him out, he touches the bag so it is legal.

"My boys" know the difference between sportsmanship and dirty plays because if they commit the crime they sit for a long time, I have kicked someone off my team for mouthing off to another team's coach and suspended kids for less.

If that was Burke taking out Blanco we'd all be singing a different tune. But it wasn't, but that doesn't make the hit illegal or dirty. By your logic, Pete Rose rocking that catcher in the All-Star gave was dirty because it was an exhibition. Hey, it's BASEBALL, play it right or don't play it at all!

Clembasbal
09-20-2004, 09:59 PM
Yeah, I was a 4 year varsity starter in HS, on a team that came close to winning a state championship.
No college, no semi-pro? Anything past HS? Techniqueily I was a four year letter man on a HS varisty golf team, but my handicap was over 15...that's not really playing sports (though golf is more of a hobby) because anybody could have done it.

Clembasbal
09-20-2004, 10:01 PM
They have to sign two top quality starters, Pavano and Perez. Then they sign JD Drew to play RF. Then, they trade Garland, Crede and whomever for Chone Figgins.
Good luck getting Drew, I know he is a free agent, but he was raised a Brave fan and his brother is in the system about to make it to the bigs. I would like to see it, but I think it is more of a dream.

Clembasbal
09-20-2004, 10:03 PM
BTW, this thread should say "Clubhouse trouble at WSI" Not "Between Ozzie and Team":tongue:

Daver
09-20-2004, 10:12 PM
No college, no semi-pro? Anything past HS? Techniqueily I was a four year letter man on a HS varisty golf team, but my handicap was over 15...that's not really playing sports (though golf is more of a hobby) because anybody could have done it.
Not a lot of colleges are interested in giving scholarships to career .191 hitting catchers, even if they have an over 50% CS resume. Working for a living negated my chances of playing baseball beyond HS. I work with some local kids as a volunteer coach at the HS now.

Brian26
09-20-2004, 10:19 PM
OK you don't like my thoughts on Ozzie ripping Garland or that Thomas and Mags getting hurt was the main issue the Sox lost (which by the way has solid evidence to support my claims unlike someone else's claims).*I* never said anything about your thoughts on Ozzie, Garland, or the injuries.

But telling my players to play as hard as they can all of the time and to never give up until the whistle blows or horn sounds is they way I coach. Great. But you're not the White Sox manager, and I guess how you coach is about as meaningful in this discussion as to whether or not Daver played high school or semi-pro ball.


Burke was getting the ball from RF or CF and guarding the plate...don't tell me if he would have caught the ball that he would not have attempted to tag him, because if he were to attempt a tag then the hit was legit and that's the end. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Burke was 6 feet up the line. Yes, he was close enough to perform a swipe tag if he got the ball in time, but there's a difference between "guarding the plate" and "catching a throw up the line". Burke wasn't blocking the plate.

By your logic, Pete Rose rocking that catcher in the All-Star gave was dirty because it was an exhibition. Hey, it's BASEBALL, play it right or don't play it at all!Don't tell me what my logic is. What the hell does the Rose play in an All-Star Game from 20 years ago have to do with anything? And for the record, Fosse was standing BETWEEN Rose and the plate. There was nothing between Torii Hunter and the plate except air. Burke was nowhere near where Fosse was. None of my logic has anything to do with exhibition games. Don't put words in my mouth.

JB98
09-20-2004, 10:27 PM
Since the Sox are already overpaying for the players they already have, it's going to take a lot of money to get that title, but it can be done easily....that is, if they're willing to invest big money up front which they will recoup many times over by winning a championship.

They have to sign two top quality starters, Pavano and Perez. Then they sign JD Drew to play RF. Then, they trade Garland, Crede and whomever for Chone Figgins.

1B Konerko
2B Harris
3B Figgins
SS Uribe
LF Lee
CF Rowand
RF Drew
C Davis
DH Thomas

Gload
Valdez
Everett
Perez
Burke

Pavano
Buehrle
Garcia
O Perez
Contreras

Takatsu
Marte
Grilli
Diaz
Cotts
Adkins

That should do it.

PS If we can't get Figgins, trade Crede and Garland to Pittsburgh for Jason Kendall and Rob Mackowiak. Mackowiac could play third base and Kendall can catch most of the time and lead off or bat second.

Two things I don't like about this plan. First, our bullpen sucked this year, and essentially, you're proposing bringing back the same guys. That isn't going to get it done. Secondly, I don't want either Kendall or Mackowiak. Mackowiak would be an absolute butcher at 3B. He's a corner OF who doesn't hit for much power. Not interested. Kendall makes twice as much money as he's worth. No way I'm dealing with Pittsburgh.

It would be great to get a guy like Figgins. But why would Anaheim trade him? No way Anaheim takes Crede either, especially with MacPherson ready to step in at 3B. I like the idea of signing Drew. I just wonder if that should be in deep pink.

batmanZoSo
09-20-2004, 10:53 PM
Two things I don't like about this plan. First, our bullpen sucked this year, and essentially, you're proposing bringing back the same guys. That isn't going to get it done. Secondly, I don't want either Kendall or Mackowiak. Mackowiak would be an absolute butcher at 3B. He's a corner OF who doesn't hit for much power. Not interested. Kendall makes twice as much money as he's worth. No way I'm dealing with Pittsburgh.

It would be great to get a guy like Figgins. But why would Anaheim trade him? No way Anaheim takes Crede either, especially with MacPherson ready to step in at 3B. I like the idea of signing Drew. I just wonder if that should be in deep pink.

Kendall would be great to have...if he made 2 or 3 million dollars. But he doesn't. Moving on.

TornLabrum
09-20-2004, 11:13 PM
:whiner: If you want chemistry in the dugout, have Ross Gload walk around carrying a bunsen burner. Team chemistry is next to meaningless.
Thank you, Dave Baum!

ma-gaga
09-20-2004, 11:36 PM
Careful here.Gotcha. [Backing slowly away from the coolade]. "Damn, is this what happened to that FHQWADS?"

This is because I'm questioning the use of "undebatable" isn't it?

Actually, I heard from one of my sources that the Dodgers are going to be trading for Kendall. He's a nice player. The Dodgers have the cash flow to make this work, and they have the position available...

:)

mdep524
09-21-2004, 12:12 AM
Since the Sox are already overpaying for the players they already have, it's going to take a lot of money to get that title, but it can be done easily....that is, if they're willing to invest big money up front which they will recoup many times over by winning a championship.

They have to sign two top quality starters, Pavano and Perez. Then they sign JD Drew to play RF. Then, they trade Garland, Crede and whomever for Chone Figgins.

1B Konerko
2B Harris
3B Figgins
SS Uribe
LF Lee
CF Rowand
RF Drew
C Davis
DH Thomas

Gload
Valdez
Everett
Perez
Burke

Pavano
Buehrle
Garcia
O Perez
Contreras

Takatsu
Marte
Grilli
Diaz
Cotts
Adkins

That should do it.

PS If we can't get Figgins, trade Crede and Garland to Pittsburgh for Jason Kendall and Rob Mackowiak. Mackowiac could play third base and Kendall can catch most of the time and lead off or bat second.
Hey, I love your thinking. I just have a few problems with the your plan- first, the payroll for that team would be ridiculously high. I like Drew and Pavano, but that's just going to be too expensive, especially if we keep Paulie. I think it is reasonable to up the payroll, but you're looking at a $90 million team there, which is not realistic.

Just off the top of my head, my amendments would be:
-trade Konerko to Anaheim for a package involving Figgins.
-trade Garland, Crede and a prospect to Pittsburgh for Kendall (with a chunk of his salary being paid by Pitt-realistic considering the talent we're giving them) and perhaps Meadows
-sign Radke and Odalis Perez
-trade Marte to Baltimore for Jerry Hairston
-move Contreras to the 'pen, possibly as a closer.

Now you have a rotation of
Buehrle
Garcia
Radke
Perez
5th Starter TBD, see how market plays out

and some line up like
Hairston 2B
Kendall C
Thomas DH
Lee LF
Rowand CF
Everett RF
Figgins 3B
Gload 1B
Uribe SS

and a 'pen revloving around Shingo, Meadows, Cotts (who I think will be up to the task), Contreras.

I'm not quite as big on needing a big-time 5th starter, I think that the Sox inexplicable catastrophes with that spot have made the problem seem bigger than it generally is. If guys like DLowe or Matt Morris come cheap, they'd be a great 5th starter. What is more likely is somebody even cheaper- Schoeneweis, heck, even Esteban Loaiza in a comic twist of fate. Remember, the AL Central Champion Minnesota Twins picked up their 5th starter, Terry Mullholland, for $1, and also threw some guy named Seth Griesenger out there for a while. If our top 4 are Buehrle, Garcia, Radke and Perez, any halfway capable 5th starter will be acceptable.

This plan may not be great, but there are so many other options. For example, sign Vizquel to play short, or get Johnny Damon to play centerfield if Boston signs Beltran, or replace Hairston with Todd Walker, or--stop the presses--go out and make a big splash (Renteria, Beltran, Pavano, Drew) ourselves! The only undeniable thing is that the opportunities are out there this off season, hopefully it will be exciting to see how they play out.

JB98
09-21-2004, 12:47 AM
I'm not quite as big on needing a big-time 5th starter, I think that the Sox inexplicable catastrophes with that spot have made the problem seem bigger than it generally is. If guys like DLowe or Matt Morris come cheap, they'd be a great 5th starter. What is more likely is somebody even cheaper- Schoeneweis, heck, even Esteban Loaiza in a comic twist of fate. Remember, the AL Central Champion Minnesota Twins picked up their 5th starter, Terry Mullholland, for $1, and also threw some guy named Seth Griesenger out there for a while. If our top 4 are Buehrle, Garcia, Radke and Perez, any halfway capable 5th starter will be acceptable.
Just curious, why do people continue to praise the Twins for their pickup of Mulholland? His numbers are worse than Garland's, and Garland is the most hated and despised pitcher among WSI posters.

mdep524
09-21-2004, 12:56 AM
Just curious, why do people continue to praise the Twins for their pickup of Mulholland? His numbers are worse than Garland's, and Garland is the most hated and despised pitcher among WSI posters.
That's pretty much my point. I am not praising the Twins as much as debunking the myth that you need 5 big-time starters in your rotation to win.

A. Cavatica
09-21-2004, 09:52 AM
[QUOTE=mdep524
5th Starter TBD, see how market plays out
[/QUOTE]
You want to bring TBD back?

Baby Fisk
09-21-2004, 10:11 AM
"Damn, is this what happened to that FHQWADS?"
I was wondering where fquhadgads went to. Was there a whacking? :unsure:

Rush20
09-21-2004, 10:13 AM
The SOX marketing brass keep selling and we keep buying. "OzzieBall" - That's all we heard the first 3 months of the season. Net-net, they are going to have a worse record than they did with Manual. Sure Frank & Maggs are out, however the pitching is "better" and the defense is "better".

Let's face it, the current core group of players can't win anything together! It's time to bust up the core and work on developing a new team that might be able to beat the "mighty" Minnesota Twins. The bad news is that by the time this happens, the Indians and Tigers will probably be the teams to beat and we'll have the same problem.

Personally, I haven't liked any of the managers since Torborg. He did a lot more with a lot less than the current regime. Lemont couldn't motivate. Bevington was an idiot and Manuel's "Yoda" approach brought them from C to B but could never get them further. I like's Ozzie's fire, however calling out Frank during the offseason and during his first press conference was a low blow and a precurser of things to come....

beck72
09-21-2004, 10:27 AM
The Hunter-Burke play should have been a catalyst for the sox. Instead, they rolled over and died.

I know what Ozzie was trying to say-that the players could learn from the embarassment and come back in 2005 and stick it to the Twins. It probably didn't come out right. But the point is that the players need to up their games. If the vets don't understand that by now, good riddance. They shouldn't be on the team in '05.